Haiti's gangs have 'near-total control' of the capital as violence escalates, UN says
Posted by Naurgul@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Haiti’s gangs have gained “near-total control” of the capital and authorities are unable to stop escalating violence across the impoverished Caribbean nation, senior U.N. officials warned Wednesday.
An estimated 90% of the capital Port-au-Prince is now under control of criminal groups who are expanding attacks not only into surrounding areas but beyond into previously peaceful areas, Ghada Fathy Waly, executive director of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime, told the U.N. Security Council.
“Southern Haiti, which until recently was insulated from the violence, has seen a sharp increase in gang-related incidents,” she said. “And in the east, criminal groups are exploiting land routes, including key crossings like Belladere and Malpasse, where attacks against police and customs officials have been reported.”
Waly said the state’s authority to govern is rapidly shrinking as gang control expands with cascading effects. Criminal groups are stepping into the vacuum left by the absence or limited delivery of public services and are establishing “parallel governance structures,” and gang control of major trade routes has paralyzed legal commerce, leading to soaring prices for cooking fuel and rice, Haiti’s staple food, she said.
U.N. Assistant Secretary-General Miroslav Jenca told the council “the ongoing gang encirclement of Port-au-Prince” and their strengthened foothold in the capital and beyond is “pushing the situation closer to the brink.”
LineOfInquiry@reddit
The neighboring countries of Haiti have a common interest in stabilizing the country: permanently not just temporarily. I don’t understand why they don’t set up some sort of international coalition to invade, set up some sort of stable government, and most importantly invest in Haiti’s economy and infrastructure to make sure people have opportunities and stable lives before leaving. The US in particular has had a hand in destabilizing Haiti numerous times and hollowing out their economy: I think we have a debt to repay to the island that we have a chance to settle here.
MightyHydrar@reddit
Because it would be really hard and costly.
You're talking about urban combat in a densely packed, chaotic enviroment, against an enemy who doesn't wear a uniform or any other identifying marks. They can run around a corner, stash their gun, and walk away looking like a regular person. Troops would be constantly at risk of ambush.
re-establishing a stable government would take years. You'd have to stabilise the economy first, and have peace for long enough to even hold elections. You'd have to vet every candidate for gang connections, and provide heavy security to the candidates.
The US tried to establish a stable government and democracy in Afghanistan, and you saw how that ended. Haiti would be more of the same.
There is currently no coalition I can see that is able and willing to give that many troops and equipment to a mission in Haiti.
And, more cynically, the violence there is bad, but fairly contained. As long as it doesn't spill over into other countries, it's not really a big concern. I obviously don't like what is going on, but as someone living in Europe, it doesn't actually affect me. The only way you'd get european electorates to accept the cost of a peacekeeping mission in Haiti would be if they believed the risk of not doing it would be greater.
The UN is not super popular in Haiti because they, through carelessness, started a cholera outbreak. Given the nations history, european peacekeepers would face significant obstacles in acceptance. It's understandable, but it means the local population would be pre-inclined to not work with them.
TributeToStupidity@reddit
You seriously don’t see any difference in the situation in Afghanistan and Haiti?
MightyHydrar@reddit
There's a million difference, but what they have in common is that state capacity building (or re-building) is not something you can easily impose from the outside, and that takes time to properly take root.
TributeToStupidity@reddit
Sure it’d take dedicated effort, but “From the outside” is wildly different talking about nato vs Afghanistan, and other Caribbean/western countries. Mainly in that random Haitian gang members won’t be suicide bombing army patrols like in Afghanistan…
NepheliLouxWarrior@reddit
Suicide bombers have nothing to do with the West's difficulty in Afghanistan.
EvilNoobHacker@reddit
It’s possible to make comparisons without equivocating. Using the turmoil that was the taliban, and using how the US handled it to explain how they might handle gangs in haiti, while not a 1-to-1 comparison, is a decent example as to how using a military force to root out guerilla violence might play out in an already unstable nation.
TributeToStupidity@reddit
It’s really, really not. First, you need to distinguish between anti insurgency military action and nation building, because they are different. Second, I don’t know where you got these ideas about Haiti but comparing gangs to the freaking taliban and clan structure of Afghanistan is absolutely crazy, and should raise some eyebrows. The culture is wildly different. The current governments are wildly different. The civilian population is wildly different. The landscape is wildly different. The neighboring countries are wildly different. The armaments are wildly different. The combatant motivation and combat experiences are wildly different. All this means the tactics required would be wildly different.
Beliriel@reddit
You'd essentially need to re-colonize Haiti. That is NOT going to go over well. Neither feom Haitians nor internationally. The whole existence of Haiti is founded in rebellion against their colonizers. Do you have any idea what you're proposing?
TributeToStupidity@reddit
I apparently have a much better grasp of the situation than you do. everyone thinks Europeans are master colonizers and you evidently don’t know much about how it works. How many colonies exactly do you think were established that cost the parent country money, and created with a transitional local government in place that the parent country wanted to take over asap?
Beliriel@reddit
Oh yes. Mr. 300IQ over here is gonna solve the foreign crisis, lmfao.
TributeToStupidity@reddit
Lmao what a ridiculous reaction to understanding literally the most basic facets of the situation, like “gang members and islamists terrorists have different motivations” and “what is colonialism.” Guess that should be expected when talking to people who quickly run out of contributions to the conversation though
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Who would have thought that couping countries causing destabilization?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
No. It is difficult to impose that state capacity after removing that state capacity because you didn’t like something about the leader.
Rizen_Wolf@reddit
Germany was smashed. Japan was smashed. Many nations have been smashed yet recovered as nations.
But society has to be collectively cohesive enough for individuals to want recover collectively, as a society, and from that reach nationhood.
But if social cohesion degrades, to a point where its crabs in a bucket of shit, each one pulling or pushing the next to them down, in order to climb up before they too get pulled down by the rest, everyone just stays in the bucket of shit. You cant build state capacity on a divided people and if you do, its never a healthy democracy.
State capacity does not need to be removed, it can collapse from internal degradation of the social contract, because states are built on societies. The US looks disturbingly close to that level of degraded social capacity and cohesion.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
The US is extremely degraded and disunited.
It is only staying together because it is so secure from external threats and because generally speaking it is fairly wealthy.
At the same time, you had an angry mob storm the Capitol because they didn’t like an election result.
d1g1t4l_n0m4d@reddit
About the US being secure you can’t have external threats when you are the external threat to the rest of the world. Haiti has been destabilised by the very same US after France did its part to bring down the nation
WileyApplebottom@reddit
I mean, the difference would be that the United States actually had no interest in building a state in Afghanistan. We stayed as long as it was profitable. Full stop.
Hour_Rest7773@reddit
I thought Kenya or Uganasa was supposed to be setting up a peacekeeping mission under a UN banner to stabilize things. Or did they just decide Haiti is a lost cause that will turn into a decade long quagmire trying to cleanup?
MightyHydrar@reddit
Kenya did send some people, but not enough, and not enough support hardware to make a difference. Last I heard the mission was ongoing but kind of failing.
Jebatus111@reddit
At this point it would be easier to wait until some gang will become main force and proclaim it as legitimate authority/government, and establish some kind of diplomatic relationships.
roughtimes@reddit
Then do that.
Jebatus111@reddit
Well, im aint haitian gang leader. XD
roughtimes@reddit
Yet, you ain't a Haitian gang leader yet.
Believe in yourself.
Jebatus111@reddit
I will consider it as a milestone when i will hit middle age crisis.
FupaWrangler@reddit
Someone is about to get isekai'd as a haitian gang leader
PICAXO@reddit
The day I woke up as the biggest haitian gang leader
serg06@reddit
That's what they're already doing
roughtimes@reddit
It's working well.
They should finish doing that.
onlypooman@reddit
Which is exactly what's going to have to happen. History is full of governments that used to be the strongest warlord.
Complex-Foundation98@reddit
Not to mention the likelyhood of civilian casualties. The enemy combatants mixes with the general population and pretty soon tragedy is bound to happen.
There are no bunkers or military installations to go after. Gangs live and operate in neighborhoods.
On the other hand, with gangs there might not be ideological motives, but rather economic / opportunistic ones, so maybe buying them off could be an alternative, if not a very palatable one.
Aineisa@reddit
“Waaahhh the US needs to stop interfering in other countries”
“Waaahh the US needs to interfere in another country.”
Pick a lane.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
“Wahhhh the US needs to stop doing unilateral interventions in other countries for purely selfish reasons but also needs to use its power to do good when it can, as long as it’s done through the legitimate legal process with the collaboration of the international community”
No_Introduction_3542@reddit
The French are mainly to blame for the troubles of Haiti.
pants_mcgee@reddit
Haiti is mainly to blame for the troubles in Haiti.
SomeDumRedditor@reddit
Hurr durr history has no impact on the present! Every generation is a blank slate! You have only yourself to blame for not living in utopia! Herp a derp
Kofink@reddit
You’re likely responding to someone who doesn’t actually know the history of Haiti.
Naive-Tone-6791@reddit
Colonial history of haiti is irrelevant to their current situation
Kofink@reddit
That’s ridiculous given recent neo-colonial realities. Can it be said that any history is irrelevant to current circumstances?
pants_mcgee@reddit
Damn, I forgot only white people have agency.
Reasonable_Fold6492@reddit
By 1950s hati and Dominican Republic had simlar gdp. Also hating invaded and massacred Dominican civilians multiple time. They are not so innocent. Anyway the doc pa is to blame.
Zarathustra124@reddit
Why should I take responsibility for myself when something unfair happened generations ago?
LineOfInquiry@reddit
They were, but the main one destabilizing them since the 1950’s has been the US. We even crashed Haitis economy and caused widespread unemployment in the 1990’s after signing a free trade deal with them so they could sell rice in the US, and then subsidizing our own rice farmers undercutting Haiti’s and destroying their industry.
No_Introduction_3542@reddit
They were, and they still are. Haiti never recovered after the French forced them to pay reparations after the slave revolt. Anything the US did was a drop in the bucket.
ROSRS@reddit
The French wouldn't have been able to enforce fuck-all in North America at that time had America not also been among the parties demanding they pay said reparations.
No_Introduction_3542@reddit
How else do you expect a slave owning nation to respond to a nation birthed in a slave revolt? It's still responsibility of the French.
ROSRS@reddit
Maybe actually uphold the principles that the founders built the damn nation on, upholding Monroe doctrine instead of being hypocrites, and allowing another nation born out of an anti-colonial rebellion have a chance to make something of themselves.
The founders KNEW that Slavery was a contradiction to their own ideals and swallowed the bitter medicine that was allowing it to continue for the nation's survival. Allowing Hati to have a chance would've gone at least some way towards absolving that guilt
partnerinthecrime@reddit
The French debt was small compared to early 1900s dictators who embezzled loan money. It’s false to imply that’s the cause.
No_Introduction_3542@reddit
No, it's not false at all, you are not stating the truth. It was a crippling debt that lasted over a century.
It was also a false debt in the first place, more like extortion and thievery than reparations.
"Liberté, égalité, fraternité" are just some meaningless words in French...
lokken1234@reddit
The us had already been subsidizing their rice farmers since 1933, it was targeted as a vital crop alongside wheat, cotton and a few others.
gnocchiGuili@reddit
Is invading the first reaction to anything happening internationally for Americans ?
fullkaretas@reddit
What neighboring countries? Jamaica?
Cuba?
Lmao
LineOfInquiry@reddit
The US, Mexico, Cuba, DR, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, the various Caribbean nations, and the various Central American states. Basically anyone bordering the Caribbean. I think you could make a pretty decent coalition with all of them pitching in. Organize it through the OAS or something.
fullkaretas@reddit
As horrible as it might sound, might just be better to isolate them and let them sort their shit out.
Not sure how much credibility foreign intervention has now adays.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Foreign intervention is fine as long as it’s done through proper channels with international support and for a specific measurable purpose imo.
Lizardledgend@reddit
See it's incredible that you don't consider "Will it be worth it to the native population" to be in any way a factor. It's all about your interests and your purposes.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
That’s the only factor that matters
PotatoBroski123@reddit
Except a lot of countries don’t have the same goals and support for an invasion of a foreign country is usually unpopular. Also, which country would be willing to foot the bill of an invasion?
zaoldyeck@reddit
Trump just revoked tps status for Haitians and is trying to rendition people to South Sudan. I don't think you can rely on the US to attempt to right any wrongs for at least the next four years. Minimum.
Haitians would be lucky to avoid a prison in El Salvador or death from dehydration in Sudan.
SomeDumRedditor@reddit
Ironically, one of the “””upsides””” to a total collapse of the “rules based order” (aka moral prohibition on expansionist warfare) would be a broadened acceptance for Hatian annexation-as-rebuilding.
But it would still be bloody, costly, and take decades of commitment to do even semi-successfully.
It’s a totally fucked situation because in a “better timeline” all (but especially regional) nations would be more prosperous and better equipped to bear the burden. But at the same time, such peace/prosperity would be in a world that would find it unconscionable to do what amounts to invading sovereign land.
Hati’s future is to become Madripoor from marvel comics. A containment zone of criminality self-governed by detente among the ruling criminal class to contain conflicting violent self-interests enough to enable commerce.
Once again the French prove to have been the worst of the colonizers, for all the shit the British (rightfully) get as the poster child for “old empire” in current culture.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It’s incredible no one remembers even recent history with Haiti. So they propose colonizing it again?
SilverDiscount6751@reddit
Although the part of canada that was colonized by the french did so hand in hand with natives while the British colonies was at war with their natives.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
They have.
The problem is finding a stable government for a country that we have tried to destabilize for 200+ years.
And also finding a leader who won’t criticize the West.
Aristide had a pretty stable government until he demanded France return the $21 billion in gold francs Haiti was forced to pay France after Independence.
Citaku357@reddit
You're absolutely right, I mean just look how things turned out so good Afganistan after the US intervention
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Afghanistan was an intervention done unilaterally by the US against a country halfway across the world that didn’t even attack them. The actual metaphor here would be if Iran, Pakistan, India, China, and the central Asian states occupied Afghanistan together and stabilized it while setting up a government both the populous and they all agreed on.
icyserene@reddit
I mean isn’t the later metaphor what actually happened? Taliban is Pakistan’s way of controlling Afghanistan. It just benefited Pakistan at the time to create a crazy state that wouldn’t act on taking Pakistan’s territory. Meanwhile the other countries in the region generally backed up the U.S.
Citaku357@reddit
Afganistan is more a NATO intervention than a US one
LineOfInquiry@reddit
NATO is just the US in a trenchcoat
Citaku357@reddit
True
AdelaiNiskaBoo@reddit
I still think that there are probably some powerful people that supply the gangs with weapons and other stuff. Dont know what their objektiv is. Maybe some proxy war or was planned to distract from other stuff and bundle attention. (But failed and it its now kind of 'ignored')
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Reminder that the vast majority of Haitian gang arms and ammunition are supplied by the USA. Haiti has no gun manufacturers and is an island, so all gang weapons come on boats.
Florida has lax gun laws and a nearby port to ship massive volumes of arms to Haiti. Considering the volume of guns, it is unlikely that it's just private buyers going to their local gun shop and ordering 20 AR-15s (no matter how lax your local gun store, there are limits to how much you can suspend disbelief).
The most likely scenario is that the arms dealers are ordering in bulk directly from the manufacturer and shipping to Haiti. Which means that Haitian gangs are receiving firearms fresh from the factory. The media doesn't report on this because this issue has occurred under multiple Democrat and Republican administrations and no federal agency gives an F.
Easier to pretend Haitians can magically summon guns through voodoo
Relative_Business_81@reddit
Sounds like a change of leadership is about to happen. I feel sorry for the people having to live through this madness… and my country isn’t exactly helping
Adventurous_Bug_6579@reddit
Why should we help them when they can't even organize a government to help themselves?
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
God the UN is useless. The UN should be going into Haiti and Gaza. They'd suffer massive casualties and be accused of genocide as there would be a ton of civilian deaths. But at least they'd be doing something to improve the world and setup stable governance/future safety. I hate our whole "hands off" approach because we can't stomach the price of saving peoples future.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
Jesus, give it a rest. Not everything is about Gaza.
MillionDollarSticky@reddit
It's an ongoing genocide. It's relevant.
Colodanman357@reddit
Then why do you only bring up that genocide and not any others? Are they not relevant for some reason?
MillionDollarSticky@reddit
What other genocide is happening right now? I'd be glad if they were brought up as well.
Human rights violations should be public discourse.
Colodanman357@reddit
How do you not know about any others if genocide is all you care about? What is so special about the Israeli Palestinian conflict for you exactly?
How about Sudan? China? Myanmar? Ukraine? Ethiopia? CAR?
gphjr14@reddit
You seem to make a hobby out of just being perpetually wrong in every comment you make.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
That’s only if I’m actually wrong.
MillionDollarSticky@reddit
It's an ongoing genocide. It's relevant.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
How is it relevant to Haiti?
BigTex88@reddit
Moralizing leftists have to know what the de rigueur thing is to be moralizing and condescending about. Thus the need to shoehorn Gaza into every discussion even when it's not fucking relevant whatsoever.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
They sure do a good job of turning people against them.
AlextheAnt06@reddit
I wish people would stop saying this nonsense. No one should have the power to turn you against something, that’s your decision to make. There are millions of people who support the Palestinians, with numerous reasons for doing so, they are not a monolith.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
Okay well I can tell you Palestines actions and their supporters actions have done so for me. So they actually do have the power to do so when I used to be sympathetic.
AlextheAnt06@reddit
“Their” being who exactly? What did the Palestinians do to you?
spam69spam69spam@reddit
Palestine launched the second largest terrorist attack behind 9/11 (which they celebrated in the streets) and constantly chant death to America.
AlextheAnt06@reddit
I thought we’d long made the distinction between Hamas and the general Palestinian populace. Secondly, considering all that America has contributed to their present circumstances, such sentiments are to be expected.
spam69spam69spam@reddit
Right and we shouldn’t fight Putin because Putin and Russia are different? We shouldn’t then be sympathetic to the Russian cause?
Hamas is supported by 90% of the population and was democratically elected in 2005. The distinction is not there in reality so it shouldn’t be there in discussion.
Palestine has only themselves to blame for their current predicament. Don’t launch an attack if you don’t want war. And take any of the 5 deals that were offered that would have granted them statehood in cases where they also launched the war.
Abject-Investment-42@reddit
The UN has been designed to be useless because at no point would USA, USSR, China or actually any other power give up their sovereignty to an entity they perceive as partially controlled by their... lets say geopolitical opponents.
Namika@reddit
It was set up by the winners of WW2, to make sure they remain the winners in the future.
IEatTacosEverywhere@reddit
Well, they elected a Nazi as the secretary general for the 70s. It was set up by theosophists to create a global governance.
Namika@reddit
Secretary General has fuck all in terms of power. It's a ceremonial role.
The Security Council P5 members are the only ones that actually matter.
Citaku357@reddit
Bingo we have a winner
Citaku357@reddit
Haven't we learned nothing from what happened in Serbenica?
ErwinRommelEyes@reddit
With what army? You understand that the UN doesn’t have a standing force don’t you? It has to borrow troops and even equipment from member nations.
So who exactly are you suggesting go fight in Haiti?
Melkor7410@reddit
The UN has troops (police? mostly from Kenya) already in Haiti.
Citaku357@reddit
They literally can't intervene
KronusTempus@reddit
They’re not UN troops, the UN doesn’t have any military or policing capability. They are Kenyan police officers commanded by Kenyan commanders who have been given the UNs blessing to participate.
The UN is not a government, it’s a forum for countries to meet.
ErwinRommelEyes@reddit
He’s suggesting a military occupation, not a policing mission. Kenya has already refused to take part in anything more than training Haitian police officers. Hence the question; who exactly is putting a 20,000+ military force under control of the UN to actually accomplish what he wants done.
Platypus__Gems@reddit
We already went over it with League of Nations.
UN needs to be minimal since it's point is to unite all the nations. Even both North and South Korea are part of the UN.
If UN started getting stronger and making more impactful decisions, a lot more nations would start to pull out of it.
UN is not useless, but it can only be marginally useful due to it's nature.
Naurgul@reddit (OP)
I think this expectation that the UN can do military interventions is as disingenuous as it is common. The UN was never designed for that purpose. Can we focus on the reality in Haiti instead of making useless calls about how the UN should have been something it's not?
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
The UN is already in Haiti.
spudmarsupial@reddit
The UN doesn't fund itself. What you are seeing is the failure of international cooperation. It is a partial success only because the UN is involved, otherwise it would be all the old empires ripping whatever wealth and order remained out of the country. Like has happened often in the past. In Haiti.
Naurgul@reddit (OP)
These missions obviously aren't military interventions of the scale you had envisioned in your original comment.
KronusTempus@reddit
Not to mention that they’re not commanded by the UN…the UN is not a government nor does it have a generals staff.
jebailey@reddit
Kind of disingenuous isn't it. First you said the UN doesn't do that, then they point out that they do, and then you change to say. But not in the way that you initially stated.
Naurgul@reddit (OP)
Words have meaning based on the context. I'm not going to write paragraphs upon paragraphs for every little thing so people like you can never nitpick. The original comment literally said "with more than a token force that basically just watches" then when I point out this isn't the UN design he turns around and says "look at all these missions with token forces the UN has conducted".
lan60000@reddit
Asking the UN, which is pretty much asking USA to be honest, to police other countries is why there's so much controversy surrounding United States' involvement with the middle east no?
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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