A perspective of Linux from someone who wants to, but it's just not working out
Posted by YamsterTheThird@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 94 comments
So, this post is by no means a belittling of any distro or Linux itself. Rather, I want to give a little bit of constructive criticism around the specific problems I've had that have ultimately resulted in me giving up and just installing Windows 10 again.
For a bit of history: I used to work in IT providing Level 1 and 2 support at a hospital. I also had a project where I was setting up a SUSE Enterprise server environment to see if it was a viable replacement for Netware. I believe this was around 2008-2010 that I was working on that.
I tried out a few distros between the late 90's and late 20's, but every single time there was always a reason I couldn't stick with Linux as my main OS. I'm not going to bother critiquing whatever it was that happened back in 2006 or whatever seeing as a) I can't remember and b) that's ancient history as far as technology is concerned.
I haven't worked in the IT industry now for nearly 10 years. And I don't miss it. These days I do the absolute minimum I have to to get by for myself. Obviously I build my own PCs, do all my own troubleshooting, whatever. Windows and products built for Windows are certainly not without fault, but I've found that typically it's quite easy to find an answer for a specific problem - that never used to be the case in the early 2000s (I prided myself on being the First Person Ever to diagnose at least two problems that I simply couldn't find an answer for).
These days I just want things to work, or at least be easy to fix.
The PC in question is a fairly recent build, it's primary purpose is to host Plex and Calibre servers, and anything else that I don't want to host on my main PC.
Last year it had a motherboard fail, so I built it anew from brand new hardware. Of course, wanting so badly to escape the Windows world after the abomination that is Windows 11 was released, I immediately picked a Linux distro to put on it.
Unfortunately, this particular distro didn't like the media drive being NTFS, so of course I had all kinds of issues and as I didn't want to buy another 8TB drive to convert to a different format, I immediately scratched it, put Windows 10 back on, and had everything up and running in under 45 minutes (including the time it takes to install Windows). This was after several hours of attempting to make things work and find out how to do basic tasks like find my IP address.
So recently, this same PC's main hard drive failed. It's a fairly new SSD that I'm chasing up warranty for. In the meantime, I found an old 2.5" HDD that I once again, thought I'll put Kubuntu on this one (as I trialled it for my Windows 11 laptop) and see how it goes.
Kubuntu provided a much easier out-of-the-box experience compared to whatever the distro was I used last year, and at first everything was going really well - I had Calibre set up and running very quickly, Plex installed without a hitch. But that's when I ran into the first major issue. Plex wouldn't see the subfolders on the NTFS drive, so I had to manually enter them in when adding new libraries. Not the end of the world, and it's a "one time only" problem.
So I left the PC to go and do the other stuff I do in life, I come back and it's gone to sleep. Whoops, ok, I don't want it doing that.
PC doesn't wake up from sleep. Or, it tries to, but I have nothing but a black screen and it's unresponsive to the mouse and keyboard. I have to reset. I go in, find power management, tell it to only turn the screen off and not sleep, etc. 20 minutes later, same problem happens again despite not actually sleeping.
After a few hours of searching for information on this issue, I found old and mildly ambiguous information stating it's either related to the kernel or nVidia driver versions. Neither of which the newest version of Kubuntu matched up with in the other reports of the issues I could find.
"I'll deal with this later," I think to myself. I don't mind learning bits and pieces but now just isn't the time.
Throughout this process, I'm also trying to figure out how to get remote desktop access working. Specifically, I want to be able to connect remotely from my main PC, do one or two things, and disconnect - all whilst my account is logged in on the Linux PC. From what surprisingly little information I could find on this subject, that's either difficult or impossible to do.
But then not long afterwards, the real deal-breaker hit. It turns out that after restarting, Linux doesn't seem to automatically mount my media drive. I have to go through the file manager and click on it just for it to mount. So every time I try to access it from my other PC or via Plex, it's like it doesn't exist. This is a SATA drive, by the way, it's not in an external enclosure.
On top of this, on the few occasions when I have asked for help with basic issues I have been hit with the "Well it just doesn't work that way, you have to do things differently, it's not Windows," as well as other more condescending comments. I like to believe that these remarks come from outliers in the Linux community, but if Youtube comments are anything to go by (I know, not a good gauge of any overall community values) then it's pretty widespread.
tl;dr summary:
There are a number of 'small problems' that are deal-breakers for people like me who just want things to work as expected, and not require complex solutions or bodge workarounds because my days of caring about fixing PC issues are well and truly over. I would love to switch from Windows for good, especially seeing as I'm gonna be hit with a Windows 11 dead end this year (and I will continue to put off "upgrading" as long as I possibly can). But unfortunately these 'small problems' make it impossible to make the switch because if there are fixes, they are too much work to get working for someone who just doesn't care about computers anymore.
Keely369@reddit
A lot of your problems seem to relate to having an NTFS media disc - not sure why since my data disc was NTFS for a few years.. but tell me, would you complain if Windows didn't work an EXT4 drive? (Hint - it won't.) If you want to make this work, perhaps you should reconsider your dealbreakers and perhaps the NTFS drive shouldn't be one?
No, this is good advice and 100% correct - you WILL hit brick walls if you keep assuming things will work just like Windows. Perhaps listen to the advice and figure out what they're referring to rather than assuming it's condescending?
You get the odd idiot like anywhere but the whole 'Linux community toxic' is BS. Honestly when I look at the people who spout it, you'll usually find they're quite toxic themselves, for example acting like people owe them something when asking for help. You don't strike me like that, but maybe you just need to reconsider your perspective on the advice not to do things the Windows way?
Did you ask for advice on this one? It's not at all difficult to solve.
Graphical method:
https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=255060
Alternatively you can look up how to edit your fstab file directly to achieve the same.
Fair enough. TBH it sounds like it could all have been solved with a little more effort, and once you learn, you're set.. but yes, there is a learning curve. I guess Windows just hasn't gotten sufficiently painful to make it worth your while yet.
blackcain@reddit
why go through fstab at all? I'm really puzzled by this. KDE and GNOME both have file browsers that let you mount drives and make them persistent graphically.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
the one problem with that, is that it seem to require you to be logged in the gui session to get them.
I wish they would give you an option to make systemd mounts.
blackcain@reddit
I think this is about desktop users so having it mounted at boot seems like something that isn't applicable to your regular consumer.
You can do mounts in systemd by adding a mount function and adding it as one of the dependencies to "multiuser boot" target in systemd. So not difficult at all. You can easily find how to do that on the internet or ask a relevant forum.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
What i meant by that is you should have this as an option in the context menu to mount it at boot rather than just for the user.
blackcain@reddit
When you pull up the filebrowser, you see all the drives there. As soon as you click on it, it mounts and displays the content of the drive.
To do what you suggest will require not just the UX but also handling issues with mounting the drive if for some reason there are issues. That's a lot of extra code to save you that 2 ms it takes to click on the drive icon and automount at that point.
Take that as someone who was a storage engineer for a major tech company for 15 years and had to use NFS to mount drives on thousands of machines. The corner cases will kill you.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
Sure, but it's not like it can't be done. in the same way the OS warns me about failed smartd checks.
blackcain@reddit
Maybe, but again it is a lot of code and maintenance for an action that is going to be the same but already pre mounted for you.
I can see some recipe for OneDrive or something where you have to mount a drive in userspace. But that can easily be accomplished by having the distro set that up as an extra feature in a workstation
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
Being premounted is fine. I just want it to be mounted at the system level rather than requiring me to be logged into a GUI session.
Keely369@reddit
I agree, which is why I shared a GUI method first. Never hurts to make people aware of the alternatives though.
killersteak@reddit
did you resolve this? if so, how? gemini gives me suggestions, alterations to nvidia power and sleep files, all they did was make my system reboot instead of actually power off.
Its a huge pain in the ass to troubleshoot on an older system because the boot up process is not fast. I gave up, and at my next opportunity to have a similarly powerful amd gpu, I'm going for it.
Patient_Sink@reddit
One day I'm gonna write a blog post like this about failing to assemble Ikea furniture while refusing to check the booklet and just assuming where everything is supposed to go. I did woodworking in primary school and I have a masters degree, how hard can it be? I'm sure this will be useful feedback for my local furniture store.
Linux is absolutely not perfect, but in most of these blog type posts the author typically doesn't look up even the slightest things and think it's useful "feedback" when things don't go as expected (what is anyone here supposed to do about this?).
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
I actually said I spent hours trying to fix these basic issues (which you would know if you actually read what I posted), but of course, nothing like skipping the facts to make for a great little self-congratulatory remark. You've also ticked the box for the second-to-last paragraph being in that post - it shouldn't need to be there, but it is. Well done! How's that neck beard coming along?
Patient_Sink@reddit
I did read your post. I've also read a few just like it. "The real dealbreaker" you described was something easily fixed, so you probably did not spend much time on that particular issue.
I also don't work with computers, nor do I have any wish to do so. But thanks for calling me a neckbeard. I work with people though, and the reason I wrote what I did is because I don't think this ever was about feedback, but validation. You got humbled by not actually reading up on stuff and now you want to feel less bad about not being able to get it working. It's easier to digest for your self-confidence that the task is impossible rather than admitting you took the wrong approach. Easier to externalize it to factors outside your control than admit you had a bad approach to the problem.
jr735@reddit
I think that sums up the gist of these cases admirably. People come to Linux, and expect it to work exactly the way they've always done things. When they find out it does not, they don't want to blame themselves for not following best practices, much less correct their actions in that regard, they want to blame the system they're working with.
I have learned decades ago that whether you're working on a vehicle, setting up a VCR, or installing and using an operating system, it pays to read the documentation. The documentation may be great. It may be pitiful. But, if you try to learn what you're doing from official sources first, you gain a massive advantage.
Decades ago, when you bought a computer, if you didn't open the giant binder that was the computer manual, you simply didn't use the machine, at all. And anyone who thinks there are neck beards now should have attended an early/mid-1980s computer users group meeting.
ang-p@reddit
Jumpers to set the CPU clock and multiplier, more for the hard drive, yet more for address and interrupt for each individual parallel and serial ports to get your printer and mouse working, and then juggle them around when you get another card that only has a restricted set of options available, so you need to change settings of something else to accommodate it....
Heaven forbid you lose the booklet with the jumper tables.
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
Just install ubuntu. There's even a step by step guide on how to do it
https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/install-ubuntu-desktop
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
I literally said that I used Kubuntu in my post, I can't remember specifically why I chose this variant but it is still Ubuntu.
Morningstar-Luc@reddit
You managed to find a Kubuntu release without ntfs support?
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
I just read the TL;DR. If you wanted everyone to read everything before replying then you shouldn't include a tl;dr.
wowieniceusername@reddit
Ubuntu has a good number of minor to major breakages every year. At this point I find recommending it to people frankly questionable.
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
I'm talking about ubuntu lts.
wowieniceusername@reddit
Why would a longer support period make any difference?
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
Your question is meaningless.
In order to support you argument that "Ubuntu [LTS] has a good number of minor to major breakages every year" you need to provide proofs of that.
gladtobeblazed@reddit
I'm a bit late to the thread. Did you try asking ChatGPT for help? I've been dual-booting Linux off and on for nearly 20 years, but finally managed to go full time just this past year. ChatGPT has a lot of outdated info, but in general has steered me in the right direction when something wasn't working as expected. It helped me edit fstab and told me about GUI option. It even helped me write custom scripts so that my wallpaper changed after the drives were mounted. (I had issues with KDE wallpaper changer triggering before the drive was mounted). I know a lot of people hate AI, but this is one thing where I would be very frustrated if I didn't have access to it. Plus it never get's condescending! It doesn't judge you! Always take it's advise with a grain of salt and verify it! Ask it to write "dry-runs" of any scripts and output results to the terminal.
LazyCatRocks@reddit
Definitely a skill issue. I've introduced Linux to plenty of people of varying computer literacy levels, and none of what you described has ever been a problem.
ang-p@reddit
You make too many assumptions.
Linux is Linux.
Windows is (or has been) Windows pro, windows server, Windows home, windows mobile, windows IOT, windows datacentre, windows SBS and others- yeah, a lot of the core files are similar, and many have different software modules, but there is no way to turn one into the other (without the odd official migration method) - unlike Linux.
The majority of hardware does not fully work out of the box on windows either - you need to install drivers otherwise you get a base level of functionality (if that) - drivers provided by the manufacturer provide the full set of capabilities.
Linux does not get that sort of support from manufacturers; if they provide drivers, they are often crippled to an extent so as to not reveal ABIs to certain parts of the firmware (e.g. for "unlocking" hardware capability in chipsets used locked down in cheaper devices) so you cannot unlock everyone's cheaper devices by reverse engineering the driver for the more expensive version and discovering the calls, even if you have added the needed links / resistors on the PCB or drawn the right lines on the CPU with a pencil.
Any other device drivers are developed from basic reference versions, for generic implementations, so won't cater for any tweaks made by the end manufacturer, and any default configuration is generally a "safe default" - it will likely work as a safe default in general, but cannot cater for every individual device using said hardware.
Take sleep / suspend as an example - one device might take longer to wake up, so a driver firing off an event after wakeup might error out on a "lazy" bit of hardware, or two items might be ready in a different order in one implementation - so needing one item to be soft-reset manually ( e.g. to ensure you get video after a wake because your GUI would otherwise open on a different tty to the one you are looking at, or no sound on the monitor on wake because the onboard soundcard was found, the HDMI was not ready, and you had configured the audio stack to not switch sources automatically). This is the sort of stuff that manufacturer-provided drivers take care of, but for Linux users it is a kernel module "quirk" that the user needs to define, or a script that needs to be triggered by a udev rule to cater for the suddenly appearing hdmi interface shortly after a wake event - should their particular item of hardware need it.
Yup - it would be great if every variation of computer was supported out of the box.... but it is as much of a reality as every single full driver being included in Windows out of the box.
As for NTFS?
I bet you never complained about windows 98 or MacOS Mojave not supporting NTFS out of the box, and the former was a closed source MS product not supporting its own FS....
For both of them it was possible (with some caveats), and newer distros even have NTFS3 built-in, and enabled, so there is not even a small barrier to usage these days.
Auto mount?
We all loved it when things happen automatically didn't we....
I decide what gets mounted, when and where I want it; Not my distro.... If I don't know how to do that - be it on demand, or automagically, or any other thing in my distro, that is a matter for education, and then maybe a feature request or bug report - not complaint; Also note - this would be a distro thing... not a Linux thing, so you are really barking up the wrong tree with this moan...
jr735@reddit
Exactly, I dare someone to file a feature request with something like Debian to automatically mount all drives and partitions upon OS startup. That should be interesting, if it doesn't hit file "G" immediately.
DividedContinuity@reddit
As much as some might say otherwise, linux isn't a "things just work" OS unless your needs are very simple.
But then, no one is asking you to use linux, you can if you want to, but if you don't... Well you really don't have to. That may sound dismissive or condescending, but its not meant to be. Linux is a degree of work, and not everyone wants that, and thats ok.
Btw, do you have an ample swap setup for that system you're sleeping? If not, then what you described will happen. One thing to consider anyway.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately, if you spend enough time online you see plenty of people shouting down at others for not using Linux. It's equally as bad as MacOS and Windows users. And it does get spruiked (in my experience) as a "yes it can do everything Windows can do, you just need to set up Wine and Proton" - which honestly wouldn't be an issue if that's all there was to it (and I'd be willing to give that a go)
Minkipunk@reddit
If you are trying to do more complex things, then a lot of stuff on Linux can be done much easier, some things on Windows don't work at all. But that is probably more true for professional use-cases for servers, embedded, development or if you want to break out of the walled garden that Apple and Microsoft have nowadays.
I think your whole endeavor in trying Linux is too Windows centric. You are trying to copy concepts from the Windows world 1:1 to Linux, but that does not work. Linux is different in many aspects.
Btw. if you're trying to host a media server I would question the choice of having a Desktop environment at all, Linux servers are usually just console managed.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Btw. if you're trying to host a media server I would question the choice of having a Desktop environment at all, Linux servers are usually just console managed.
Basically, it was a PC that already existed, and at the time I was using it for one or two desktop-related tasks that I can now relegate to a laptop that I use. But when I had to replace the failed hardware, it was still being used for those same tasks. It was originally my main desktop PC, and at one point I think on top of Calibre and Plex I was also running two or three game servers. When I could finally afford to build a dedicated gaming/desktop PC I just kept this particular one for the 'server' tasks and for those other one or two desktop tasks. When I replaced the failed hardware I tried to go with parts that were adequate, but fairly low power consumption (e.g., it runs a GTX 1030 although if I'd been smart I would have bought a CPU with built-in GPU, which I didn't even think about at the time)
jr735@reddit
You can still log in through TTY and keep the desktop, or remove it if you wish.
wowieniceusername@reddit
Things can "just work" but usually if and only if you're used to the Linux workflow and adjacent *nix systems. If you come from Windows there's a hell of a learning curve. Somehow my macOS has been doing fine on Asahi Linux even though I've noted him as being somewhat tech illiterate for years. The mileage varies alot honestly.
jr735@reddit
Your buddy didn't learn bad Windows habits, which saves people a lot of grief.
Big_Contribution_387@reddit
what about linux mint?
jr735@reddit
Linux is first and foremost a multi-user environment. Nothing should be mounted automatically unless explicitly desire, and reflected in fstab. With your background, I'm not sure why this would flummox you. Beyond that, you built your machine first and decided on Linux afterwards, as I read it. That's backwards.
And yes, you'll get condescending remarks about things like that, absolutely. If you administered an openSUSE server environment, the mounting protocols shouldn't surprise you and you should already know this isn't Windows.
Unfortunately, I do get condescending with most "techs" and scenarios like this are why. I deal with a lot of them and have dealt with a lot of them over the years. 10% of them have a clue of what they're doing. 90%, I'm not sure where they got their certifications, but I wouldn't let them touch my computer.
When someone who administered an openSUSE server is confused by mounting and fstab, the problem is in the mirror, not in the OS. Your description of yourself is that you are not a casual noob. The onus is on you to learn this stuff.
man fstabblackcain@reddit
The attitude is definitely a sysadmin ego (I was one for over 15 years, so I know the type). Very DYI.
jr735@reddit
Not so much a sysadmin ego, but the attitude of someone who learned computing long before public internet and who had a computer science instructor that believed strongly in self-directed learning. If you followed his instructions exactly, you would get a 70% in his class. If you did extra learning and applied it, you'd get into the 90s or more.
If you went asking to be spoonfed, he'd recommend you drop the class.
Serializedrequests@reddit
I've been fighting fstab for two decades with the exact same frustration as OP, in every distro. It's frustrating and annoying to Google this every two years and find the right slightly different settings. I don't care what the justification is, it's a shitty experience.
Zamundaaa@reddit
In KDE Plasma you just open settings, go to "device auto-mount" and check the option. That's it.
I do agree that this should ideally be on by default, but assuming you know what "mounting" means, it's hardly something that's complicated or requires googling.
blackcain@reddit
I think if you're using removable drives it might create issues if it is keep trying to mount something that isn't there.
Zamundaaa@reddit
It doesn't do that.
Serializedrequests@reddit
I haven't used KDE very much, that's good then!
blackcain@reddit
In GNOME files, I can mount drives after a reboot the pointer to the drive is still there and I just have to click on it to have it mounted. Not sure how it works in KDE I assume it is the same way.
BigHeadTonyT@reddit
https://www.linuxuprising.com/2018/12/how-to-auto-mount-partitions-on-startup.html
It is 4 clicks. Pick partition, adjust mount options if needed and turn it on, press the "Play" button.
I can do it manually with Fstab but why would I? KDE Partition Manager is just as easy too. So I use both. Depending on my mood for the day, I pick one or the other.
In a way, I see it as a safety feature too. Someone who does not know the filestructure might decide to start deleting folders, not realising, their other drives are mounted there. It is all under Root. If they were to be automounted. Bad day. Or year.
jr735@reddit
I never claimed fstab is easy or fun. If I use it, I have to check the man page. I'm not going to sit there and write out an fstab in a text editor without referencing the manual.
However, as it stands, you're using fstab directly, writing or finding a GUI wrapper, or you're mounting on demand. Those are your choices.
Upstream server distributions are decidedly not erasing fstab from history anytime soon just to appease desktop users. Personally, aside from a server instance, I don't tend to have the need of having my secondary drives mounted at startup. If I want to mount one, I'll do it. If I don't need it, it's fine as it is. I don't see any value from a security perspective in having things mounted unnecessarily.
jr735@reddit
I don't claim fstab is easy or fun. It does work, though. Read the man page. That's what I do. It's not about desktops. It's about Linux in general as a multi-user/server environment. Use fstab according to the manpage, use or write a GUI helper, or mount on demand.
I assure you that no server OS developer is going to write fstab out of the history pages anytime soon. If Debian won't do it, or Canonical (with Ubuntu Server) or the Red Hat/Fedora people, then you're not going to see it happen downstream on Mint.
mrlinkwii@reddit
id diasagree with this , its just like this which leads users to go away from linux , QOL is really missing in linux
basically saying "rtfm" isnt a good answer
jr735@reddit
You can disagree with it all you want. That's almost like asking for gravity to be repealed.
Linux is primarily a multi-user environment and is set up with that in mind first. You're free to modify any or all of the udisks packages and the kernel itself as you see fit and release it with all devices mounted automatically on boot, somehow magically without an fstab. I'd love to see how that works, and I guarantee you that RHEL, Debian, Ubuntu Server, and anything else that is running a server will never go for it.
Then, if they don't go for it, none of the affiliated desktops will, either. If that leads users to leave Linux, that's fine. Windows is over thataway. Use it.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Linux is first and foremost a multi-user environment. Nothing should be mounted automatically unless explicitly desire, and reflected in fstab. With your background, I'm not sure why this would flummox you. Beyond that, you built your machine first and decided on Linux afterwards, as I read it. That's backwards.
If I buy a motherboard, RAM, CPU, GPU, and hard drive, I expect it to work on any OS (within given parameters). There is nothing weird about that, and if Linux doesn't work on an AMD Ryzen 7 then that is 100% a Linux problem. Where exactly does it say in the Kubuntu installation process that Linux won't automatically mount a second hard drive if I haven't asked it to? This information isn't readily available and for someone who worked primarily with Windows machines and Windows and Netware servers, it's not something I'm going to immediately think of especially when I've been out of the industry for 10 years (and never looked back except to shudder)
And yes, you'll get condescending remarks about things like that, absolutely. If you administered an openSUSE server environment, the mounting protocols shouldn't surprise you and you should already know this isn't Windows.
I didn't even mention this background in the past and was still getting condescending remarks. This isn't how you welcome new users to the fold, it's the perfect way to get rid of them. The openSUSE environment was a very, very short-lived project because we immediately ran into the issue where Linux permissions (at the time) were inadequate for our needs, and so I actually spent very little time on it because there was no point.
Unfortunately, I do get condescending with most "techs" and scenarios like this are why. I deal with a lot of them and have dealt with a lot of them over the years. 10% of them have a clue of what they're doing. 90%, I'm not sure where they got their certifications, but I wouldn't let them touch my computer.
When someone who administered an openSUSE server is confused by mounting and fstab, the problem is in the mirror, not in the OS. Your description of yourself is that you are not a casual noob. The onus is on you to learn this stuff.
So basically, I'm up a river without a paddle here - if I ask for help, I get talked down to, and if I say nobody helped me when I was having problems I couldn't fix, then I also get talked down to. I always, always try to find answers to my problems before I ask, because I like to find out things for myself. If I am unable to find these answers, then that's not my problem - that's a lack of information. How can I learn when the resources aren't readily available?
I am sorry that you are offended that I didn't immediately know all the answers to my Linux problems despite having barely touched it over the last 15 years or so. And the reality is that I would have looked up the solution for the drive mounting problem if it weren't for all the other problems that had already surfaced before that point. As I said, that was the deal breaker. There was simply no point continuing with Linux at that stage, the failing to wake from sleep had pretty much already put the last nail in the coffin.
jr735@reddit
If something isn't working right with respect to the hardware, that's on the hardware manufacturers for not providing drivers or compatibility. If I have a Windows computer and buy a joystick or gamepad, irrespective of whether or not the peripheral advertises Windows compatibility, if it doesn't work, it's on the device manufacturer. I started computing when printers weren't even cross platform, not even physically connectable on another brand's computer. These days are a walk in the park in comparison.
Why would it? That's not germane to the installation procedure. When I started on Ubuntu 21 years ago, my secondary drive wasn't mounted automatically. I looked online as to why that was and found a satisfactory answer, and never gave it a second thought. If I need a drive mounting upon startup, I add it to fstab by hand (and it can be done with GUI help). If I need it only on demand, I mount it on demand. Mount your drive or do not mount your drive. Complaining won't do it.
I'm not here selling Linux, so that's immaterial to me. As for the openSUSE project being short lived, fstab administration is, in my view, a very important skill for a server administrator to have. Even having a cursory understanding of it can be helpful for less technical users, particularly if they're backing things up in a very old school way (i.e. full system tarballs with selective excludes) or recycling partitions for new installs. If you want your system ever to boot again, you learn to check UUIDs in fstab.
The resources are readily available. One just has to search for them. What research did you do on the fstab matter? I solved that problem 21 years ago, and the net was nowhere near as mature at the time. Further, given that, I still don't know everything and can't sit there and draft an fstab in a text editor off the top of my head. I still use man pages all the time.
Sleep and hibernation problems are indicative of two things, generally speaking. The first is incompatible hardware. The second is (for hibernation) and improperly set up swap. Anecdotally, I've heard a lot of complaints about hibernation and sleep in Windows from Windows users, so it's clearly not just a Linux thing. My own sleep and awake have worked since I started with Linux. I've never had a desktop fail at that.
Part of the condescension comes, and will continue to arise, when people come here and other subs or forums and indicate to use that we're doing things wrong because it's not how it's done in Windows. New flash: I left Windows 21 years ago because I don't like the Windows way. I used Windows 98 and did some consulting on NT, and that was more than enough Windows for one lifetime. In fact, that was the end of proprietary software for me, period.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
I'm not going to bother replying because you're now picking and choosing what you'll respond to and I have no interest in repeating what I've already said or trying to justify myself in different words. Plus, again, the drive mounting was the last straw, it wasn't the primary issue, there were several others before I reached that point and you're ignoring that fact.
And I agree that it's on the manufacturers to provide drivers - and if they don't make drivers for Linux then using Linux stops being an option if third-party drivers aren't available. That's kind of the point.
I would love to be rid of Windows, absolutely. I dread being forced into using Windows 11 but unfortunately it's still looking like it's going to be the best option for my needs by the time they've driven Windows 10 into the ground and third-party software creators and hardware manufacturers have stopped supporting it.
jr735@reddit
If you have a specific question as to any of my comments, that's fine. I'm answering those remarks you made to which I can best respond. I haven't had to troubleshoot much in the way of sleep/hibernate/wake issues over the years. I know the general concerns rely upon the hardware and the swap, where the best practice is a swap partition of sufficient size to hold all items in memory.
If you want me to address NTFS, well, that's a proprietary MS thing. Microsoft protecting their intellectual property in that regard means you will only have as much compatibility as can be made possible by people reverse engineering the protocols. It's a small miracle that it works at all. Companies like Microsoft fight that kind of thing tooth and nail, and if it were up to Microsoft, you wouldn't be able to use NTFS at all on anything except MS Windows. It's not for their lack of trying, either.
Some may be dissuaded from using Linux because of hardware incompatibility. I'm the reverse. I'm dissuaded from using specific hardware if Linux compatibility is lacking. I shopped hardware in the early/mid-1980s when Centronics ports weren't even standardized. I have zero problems walking past Nvidia devices in the store, not to mention bizarre keyboards or niche printers. If a piece of hardware will not work on Linux, I simply will not purchase it.
I'm not offended, and none of this is meant to be insulting. This is not that hard. It takes a different approach. Part of leaving Windows behind is leaving the Windows mindset behind.
wowieniceusername@reddit
Haven't read it all (will read after this comment) but I can verify that NTFS is a terrible idea on Linux. It mostly works but yknow... its the... NT File System. Made for Windows only. Support can be questionable.
blackcain@reddit
I think he was using Kubuntu so it would be whatever the KDE equivalent is.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Yeah I can get that NTFS not being designed for Linux is potentially an issue, which is why I stopped using it the first time around but the second time with Kubuntu it was no longer an issue :) it was working just fine and I had my SMB share set up within minutes
RythmicMercy@reddit
Skill Issue.
3rssi@reddit
TLDR. Just looked the part where kuguntu not waking from sleep; it is a driver issue. Check another distro.
OTOH, Linux sucks at waking from hibernation. Do not hibernate with linux.
Valuable-Cod-314@reddit
I use NTFS drives for general data stuff like movies, tv shows, and music for Emby (Better than Plex). The thing that held me up at first when I switched over to Linux was the permissions. I had a time installing Emby and allowing it to access my library of media. But hey, you learn, and you move on. With mounting, I was so use to the Windows way and having total access, as well as programs, to all the hard drives that mounting a disk was initially foreign to me. However, I rolled my sleeves up and learned how to do it and even how to recover if I mess something up in Fstab. The point of all of this is, Linux is not perfect and you will have to learn new things and possibly give up a few things you did on Windows if there isn't an alternative. But, in my opinion, being away from Microsoft's grip where they decide what to do with Windows, not you, is worth it. That and they are pushing an AI on everyone that is used to scoop up all your personal data and the constant AD barrage, you are the product and you don't own or control the OS!
crackhash@reddit
Linux is not Windows remember that. So don't expect Linux to work like windows. If I had drives with ext4 or btrfs should I blame windows that It doesn't see those partitions?
mrlinkwii@reddit
id somewhat disagree with this
id expect linux have basic feature like windows , many linux projects forget this , things like wayland not having a concept of " primary display" , things like GNOME not doing ssd , basic QOL that every OS dose
jr735@reddit
Who in the hell are Bill Gates or Steve Jobs to decide that all drives should be mounted automatically upon startup? Windows and MacOS have been enshittified for years. We don't need that nonsense in Linux.
mrlinkwii@reddit
no it hasnt ,
says who? because if users except something and ikt dosent happen , people will just move on from linux
jr735@reddit
Yes, they have been enshittified, and that's why I left. Users are free to move on if they don't get what they want. No one is sacrificing server security and multi-user security just because new users want an asinine feature.
Part of software freedom is, take whatever distribution you want, make those changes, and distribute it. As I already pointed out, no distribution out there is going to start automounting every device. Fstab exists for a reason, and not to be difficult. What you want to be automounted is. What you don't want automounted isn't. If you don't understand the security concerns for that, just say so, and one or more of us can explain that to you.
AgainstScumAndRats@reddit
In 5-10 years if you're ready to try again, use Fedora with GNOME and install app through Flatpak.
FattyDrake@reddit
Try getting a macOS or ext4 drive mounted in Windows. That doesn't "just work" either.
You intentionally made things harder for yourself then are complaining that it needs setup. It's hard not to sound condescending when trying to explain how to fix it. Instead of approaching it like you're an expert approach it fresh.
I share an NTFS drive between each OS on a dual boot system. It did, however, require me to type in a single line of text in a config file. /etc/fstab if you're curious.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Yep I'm fully aware of that. That's why I tried to explain in detail of what my experience had been, and also how the NTFS drive format hadn't actually been an issue on the Kubuntu setup I did. I thought I was pretty clear about that but hey, everyone makes mistakes.
Starting fresh simply wasn't an option; like I said I wasn't going to buy another 8TB drive just for migrating things to a different format. And this is going to be the same problem for anyone who wants to swap over - sometimes things are just simply not going to work out.
The NTFS drive was fine and I even had an SMB share set up on it within minutes of having Kubuntu up and running (I think it was the first thing I did) as I knew there was no point continuing if that still wasn't going to work for me. The real problem (When I found out the drive wasn't automatically mounting) occurred long after all the other, more serious problems had arisen that I spent considerable time trying to fix.
FattyDrake@reddit
I didn't mean start fresh, I meant approach Linux fresh as if it's a brand new thing you have no experience in.
There was another commenter on this sub who referred to Linux as being a "Wincanny valley" in the sense of if you're completely new to desktop computing, Linux is fine. If you're an expert, Linux is fine. But if you're in the middle, where you're very familiar with Windows and know enough to do advanced things in it, Linux will actually cause more problems because it seems familiar but in reality it's operates in a wholly different way.
It seems you're in the middle portion, where you know enough to get around Windows very well and do advanced things, but are expecting Linux to function similarly. I switched from Windows to Linux last year (as I said I still maintain a dual boot) and it really requires you to approach it as if learning from scratch.
Basically, go into Linux with no expectations how it "should" work. If you want to do something, just immediately look up the Linux way to do it.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Hmm, I know what you're saying but I approach every modern OS (not just Linux) with the idea that certain things should be immediately available and work 'out of the box'. I 100% approached Linux with the idea of "I need to learn how to make it work for me" but when I can't get remote access to it straight out of the box, and it freezes coming out of sleep, then those are immediate red flags.
Windows is no different - the amount of things we had to do to fix Windows being too "user friendly" even back in the 98/2000/XP days was hilarious.
FattyDrake@reddit
That's fair. Although sleep/restore is also a problem on a lot of systems with modern Windows too, especially if they aren't laptops. That's all dependent on manufacturer drivers, which are different for every single motherboard. Even before Linux, I just got accustomed to not letting any system sleep or suspend while using Windows. Too many problems overall.
The only computers I've ever seen sleep and suspend work 100% perfectly are Macs.
I've also not had issues with remote access, although again, this is something I specifically set up a computer for when installing. It's not something generally included by default in distros, and Windows requires various permissions settings too.
Regardless, if you want any computer to just work without having to ever think about it, including the setup, Apple makes them. You might find major PC vendors with similar systems, but it's hit and miss. Building your own is such a gamble if that's the sort of thing you want.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Honestly, the only Apple product I've ever owned was an iPad Air which was a "gift" when I signed up for a course (which cost a hell of a lot of money). It was fine, except when I wanted to transfer files to and from, it just didn't work the way that I wanted it to. I can't remember specifics (going back about 10 years now) but seeing as I didn't even really need a tablet PC of any sort I ended up selling it. It was only a few years ago now that I ended up buying an S7 Tab (or whatever it's called).
I have done some work on Macs when I did a short work contract at a university, and I obviously have friends who use them. Having Macs running in a Windows Server environment came with complications that I'm sure aren't universal, so I won't critique here. But the way Apple do business is simply of no use to me, for a few reasons.
FattyDrake@reddit
Yeah, I'm not saying you have to use Apple, I don't like their practices either. Their planned obsolescence is one of the major factors that made me switch to Linux. (I used an iPad in combination with a Windows desktop for a couple specific apps.) But they do have excellent hardware/software integration.
I primarily focus on art, media, game development, etc. and also hate thinking about using computers. Part of the reason I switched was Windows was becoming waaaay too much of a hassle trying to keep their updates and added features off my computer. Now everything works the way I want it to and I only update once a month. And I don't have to worry about having settings revert to using OneDrive or some new AI BS being added into the system.
So I switched to Linux and got a Surface Pro to replace the iPad and put Linux on that too, focusing on drawing. And I can actually run Blender on it.
It did take a little while to get used to Linux, but once I did I honestly rarely boot into Windows nowadays. The only reason to do so anymore is to play League, and I haven't done that in awhile.
If you ever feel like giving Linux a go again, I highly recommend Fedora Plasma. They're generally the best up-to-date Linux distro. You just have to enable the Nvidia driver once installed (they have a whole dialog window to add third-party stuff like that.). Kubuntu is sort of tacked onto Ubuntu and Ubuntu has it's own issue including packages that lag behind, which really matters with stuff like Nvidia drivers.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice! I'll try and make sure I remember Fedora Plasma for the next foray into Linux
r_search12013@reddit
I have no first hand experience, but there was a parent on a post here recently who let the "child" (12ish years old?) decide on their distro, and they went with: https://bazzite.gg/ .. apparently it was easy for the child to install, I know nothing about that distro
dan4334@reddit
Bazzite is basically a community version of SteamOS. It's geared to get you into an interface like the Steam Deck to play your games. I wouldn't really recommend it unless that's the main thing you want to use your computer for.
r_search12013@reddit
how unfortunate.. I was just looking into steamdeck for a first time today because of course I'd like to gamedev support it, it made linux gaming so nice nowadays :D but I personally would never use it, I like my tower pcs :) better cheaper cooler hardware than any notebook could ever hope to achieve, no matter what brand :D
but thanks! :) that little comment probably saved me a lot of time of "kind of wanting to try" :D
Oricol@reddit
You can use gnome or kde like normal on bazzite. Bazzite is designed for gaming but you can still use it like a normal PC. Flatpak home brew or containers are what you should install other software with.
Krunch007@reddit
Funny seeing all of these posts of Linux not working with like the most minor of issues, meanwhile I had to install Windows 11 for the first time in 4 years and it's basically impossible to use comfortably.
The goddamn Microsoft store won't load anything and won't show any error messages either, troubleshooters aren't fixing things, it's got like a 50/50 chance of just not booting because it "can't find winboot.ini", but after another restart it boots, and this is all to not even mention how the shortcut remap utility is awful and workspace management is basically non-existent. Like why the hell am I unable to switch desktops with the shortcut when in a windowed borderless app? I have to click the taskbar then use the shortcut for it to work.
I'm telling you, once you learn to use computers properly windows feels like a half baked mess that doesn't do much of anything right. If these are your issues, NTFS drivers support, learning how to use remote desktop and apparently being unaware of what fstab is, you have not gotten even close to the height of computing Linux can offer.
Plasma/Gnome offer a better GUI experience than Windows any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And you can actually troubleshoot your tools if you work on that knowledge. But I understand now having the passion/time to either. It's just that that's not an OS problem.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Windows 11 is absolutely atrocious and it is the main reason I want to get rid of it for good (I fortunately only have it on my laptop which I bought in the last year). I can't say I've had the problems you're having, but the GUI is awful, it's slow and jittery despite being significantly more powerful than my desktop PC, and they've made it much less flexible and much more difficult to configure.
But Remote Desktop works straight out of the box. Steam and everything I own on it work straight out of the box. All my peripherals work. It doesn't freeze waking from sleep. It's been a while since I had to guess at the correct driver version for something to work as expected.
These basic problems that I raised are the reason that I won't be continuing further with Linux at this time - these are things that I expect to work straight out of the box on a modern OS, and they just don't (the NTFS thing aside, which DID work just fine on Kubuntu which I did make clear and I've reiterated several times now in response to people who didn't read the whole post).
The Linux community is extremely vocal about how Linux is better than Windows and everyone should use it, but the reality is that people don't want to spend 6 hours being unable to find a solution to a basic problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. And this is the entire premise of my post. The defensiveness of the replies is absolutely proving my point as well, and honestly I did actually expect better...
Krunch007@reddit
Look, remote desktop can be done by just using Plasma 6.1+ as they added remote login from that version onward. Or, by using third party tools like TeamViewer with the appropriate account configuration and persistence daemon on the target PC. Or, if you use X11 sessions, there's a whole host of other utilities.
For the black screen problem that's much more rare and finicky. It used to be that (at least for Nvidia cards), you had to make sure to enable the persistence daemon or else you'd end up with this. But there's more possible causes.
Steam just works, I'm not sure what problems you ran into but it's been consistently at least as good as on windows.
While I understand your frustration at how things are just expected to work on a modern OS, I feel like you'll just have to understand this is a bunch of open source projects bundled together, and while for a lot of people things will just work, for some stuff just will take a little more elbow grease. Unless you buy a machine from Tuxedo or System76, who apply patches for the hardware they sell, you're basically rolling the dice and support is in your hands. It is what it is, Linux is definitely superior as a computing experience, but if you're not gonna buy an actually tested and supported Linux machine, you better be ready to learn how to deal with eventual issues like these, because there's nobody that can come in to help you.
But once again, there's easy ways to check which hardware is well supported and which isn't.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Look, remote desktop can be done by just using Plasma 6.1+ as they added remote login from that version onward. Or, by using third party tools like TeamViewer with the appropriate account configuration and persistence daemon on the target PC. Or, if you use X11 sessions, there's a whole host of other utilities.
Interesting - I'll have to check what version of Plasma that was on the Kubuntu version I downloaded as it was literally yesterday, and I could find no such information on that feature without installing XRDP (which didn't work anyway, just sent me to a black screen, and then I found out I needed to be logged out on the desktop itself, which would have defeated the purpose of what I was trying to do at the time).
I was using TeamViewer for a while but their free licensing model has gotten significantly more restrictive and they started flagging me for commercial use every now and then just for connecting to my home PC from elsewhere. I did look at using another free product which name escapes me many years ago (I think it starts with 'P') but I found that if I didn't have a monitor plugged in, it wouldn't emulate a virtual screen and so I couldn't make it work for me.
Sorry - I didn't get around to using Steam on this new build and that comment was meant to be just part of my spiel about Windows working despite it being awful. I actually have an external drive that I set up with Kubuntu for my gaming laptop and the first thing I did was set up Steam and get a few games installed to see how it goes and I don't think I had a single problem with it.
luizfx4@reddit
If it's not working out, then don't use it. Or dual boot with a system that attend the needs Linux does not.
The whole point of an OS is making your computer usable.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
The only reason I made the post is because in my forays across the internet I do see a lot of posts from people saying "Just switch to Linux" (privacy reasons, it's free, it's not Microsoft, "everything just works", etc.) and whilst I would love for that to be true, in my experience that simply hasn't been the case despite really wanting it to be :)
luizfx4@reddit
Yes, I understand your point and it's valid. And I personally think that Windows is just the "mainstream crap" that people like to use because they're stuck on it for reasons like compatibility, unsupported software, the list goes on and on.
But as much as I want everyone to use Linux and rant at MS, I understand that some people just CAN'T MIGRATE. So that's the reason for my comment.
I know you wanted a good experience, but if it's not giving you the results you need in a reasonable time (and that means getting what you need to do, done), then there is no point on keep trying.
That's only it.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
I'll definitely try again one day. I'm thinking at some point I'll buy a second nVME drive for my gaming laptop, since it seems like gaming is actually one of the easiest things to migrate to Linux. At least then I can test it without losing my existing setup.
luizfx4@reddit
Yeah that's a path. Good luck anyway! 🤞
Realistic_Bee_5230@reddit
most major distros (and forks) have thorough documentation. Arch has one of the best, and I would be dead without it. Gentoo is the best as far as I am concerned. We also have detailed MAN pages for each piece of sftware. just type man and then the tool you want doc for, like
man sudo, if that does not work there is reddit and forums for you to ask questions, I would honestly argue using an LTS distro like ubuntu would give you much more support than windows.Linux mint "just works" I am partial to ubuntu and alma linux as well, I use CachyOS Arch for my laptop tho.
Although NTFS is supported in linux (from kernel v5.15 onwards) I dont think it supports (or atleast properly) the way linux user and group stuff works, I dont know much about this, so I wont comment.
OK so I have never owned/dealt with an nvidia gpu myself but are you sure this is a linux issue? Do you have the correct drivers? ubuntu has nvidia drivers and you can find them on nvidia's website. Afaik, there are many reasons for this issue, including hardware/software/firmware etc, I am also very unqualified to talk nvidia, but nvidia is known not to play nice with linux, their drivers are not even open source and integrated into the linux kernel like with basically everyother supported hardware. This may have also been a wayland or xorg issue depending on when this was. Wayland is the newest display server and had some issues esspecially with nvidia some time back.
I think this is an /etc/fstab issue, if you have more details on how you installed it etc in the first place, you can get support for it on reddit for the distro that you use.
Realistic_Bee_5230@reddit
Im sure 99% of the commenters were not intending on being condescending (there are bad apples) but the fact is, linux is not windows, expecting things to work like they do on linux is just not gonna get you far my friend. As a linux noob/amateur (been using for nearly a year now!!!) I didnt really have this problem because I never actually knew how windows worked, i just used it for the browser lolz, but this is almost certainly a big issue for longtime windows users migrating. Its like a language, expecting japanese to work like english just wont help. Just state that you are a noob and the kind people will help accordingly. "Well it just doesn't work that way, you have to do things differently, it's not Windows," as well as other more condescending comments.
YamsterTheThird@reddit (OP)
Absolutely I understand that Linux is not Windows, I'm not necessarily talking about things like network adapter configuration or just finding the 'right way' to do things. The issue I was asking about at the time was something to do with desktop customisation (which is actually extremely limited in Windows 11 especially) and I was basically told "It doesn't work like that in Linux, deal with it". Turned out he was wrong anyway, as the problem was solved when I switched to using Plasma. Which is certainly much prettier and nicer to use than any modern Windows variant :)
Realistic_Bee_5230@reddit
Im sure 99% of the commenters were not intending on being condescending (there are bad apples) but the fact is, linux is not windows, expecting things to work like they do on linux is just not gonna get you far my friend. As a linux noob/amateur (been using for nearly a year now!!!) I didnt really have this problem because I never actually knew how windows worked, i just used it for the browser lolz, but this is almost certainly a big issue for longtime windows users migrating. Its like a language, expecting japanese to work like english just wont help. Just state that you are a noob and the kind people will help accordingly.
CoffeeSubstantial851@reddit
What was the original distro you picked and what version of it? You never stated what that original distro was so no one has any context as to whether or not the problems are just user error.
Most Linux Distros have a simple solution to auto-mount a hard-drive on boot. In Linux Mint you just type in "disk", open that up. click on the cog wheel for your settings, go to edit mount options, disable the "user session defaults" (since this is defaulting to only mounting the os drive) which is literally one button and then check "Mount at system startup". Tada now your drive will automatically be mounted every time you boot. https://www.linuxuprising.com/2018/12/how-to-auto-mount-partitions-on-startup.html
HelpMyCatGotMyBalls@reddit
Ive never dealt with other disk formats in linux, but about the drive not mounting automaticaly you can just pit the comand in the fstab file. If i remeber right its /etc/fstab
Remote Access is not that hard, depends on what you want. Just terminal the terminal? Use SSH. Want the whole desktop just use moonligh/sunshine. Ive got sunshine runing on my mint pc and arch laptop, and i can remote from one another and from my phone. If you want Access over the internet, just setup tailscale.
About you other drive, you might be able to convert it to the linux file system with a bit of work. Move all files in the back of the partition to a backup drive (1tb, 500gb does not matter) reduce the partition size of ntfs and create a new partition, and keep moving things. This might work, but i dont realy recomend it as partitions are very finicky.
Also you can ask CHAT GPT for help, its not always right, but asking of this or that can be done and how to do it usualy works out
dan4334@reddit
Overall I have a similar opinion about desktop operating systems. I mostly stick to Windows and MacOS as I work in IT and cannot be bothered dealing with things when they don't work.
However, for my file server and various home network services, Linux all the way (apart from TrueNAS Core which is FreeBSD). All that stuff that doesn't need a desktop runs like a dream on Linux.