Might need CJIS cert -- Expunged criminal record?
Posted by an0therburn4racc0810@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 47 comments
I just started a new job, passed the background check for employment, but they told me that I (a manager) might need a CJIS certification. I know that requires a fingerprint background check, but it was a doozy when I was 18 that got expunged, so now I am a little concerned about my longevity at this job (started not too long ago).
Does anyone have any insight on this?
Outrageous_Device557@reddit
Are you required to touch law enforcement data for this job. Can someone else on your team do it ?
Crazy-Panic3948@reddit
In every single job I know of that requires CJIS certification, they won't even hire you unless you can pass the FBI background check.
an0therburn4racc0810@reddit (OP)
It's hit or miss on if I myself will ever touch the data. Just oversee integrations of teams that do. The background check did criminal history, but was not for FBI level. Also this was never mentioned to me before recently that I may or may not need
Crazy-Panic3948@reddit
I feel you OP, I am just saying they are usually blanket requirements. Why take a chance?
an0therburn4racc0810@reddit (OP)
I'm already in the role and the requirement was never mentioned. Offer letter, jd, nothing. They just sprung it on me lol
xendr0me@reddit
FBI background check is for employment with the FBI, you must mean a national criminal history check/search. This is different. If the agency he is being employed by wants to conduct a background check on their own, that's up to them and their standard process and checkboxes for doing so.
Specialist_Cow6468@reddit
If your org interacts with CJIS in any real fashion it’s going to be immensely difficult or downright impossible to have someone on the team who isn’t certified. For instance, it’s not uncommon for the workspace for such a team to be considered a secure area with regards to CJIS. This means there are requirements for escorting people who aren’t approved. Likely a real problem for one of that teams managers
Cold_Snap8622@reddit
Just went through the same thing a year ago. Got a DUI when I was in the military 15 years ago that bit me in the ass. As long as you can prove that the case is closed and everything is settled you should be fine. My case was unfortunately still open and active and I had a hell of a time trying to get it closed in Cali. It didn't help they had a cybersecurity incident and had to find the paper copy's of stuff since all the digital copy's were apparently destroyed by ransomware. Also your police chief can file for an exception if you don't pass outright.
tristanIT@reddit
15 years ago but still active? Did they actually file the charges at any point?
Cold_Snap8622@reddit
Yes I was charge with DUI, this was my fault as well, I was being deployed overseas. So I hired a lawyer to stand in for me, and sentenced with a fine and a class. Apparently I paid the fine but never did the class. So the case was never closed and I had forgotten about it and never thought about it again until I needed CJIS clearance. After submitting my application for clearance it came back denied and said I had something I needed to clear up. I knew instantly what it was since it was my only time ever being in trouble with law enforcement.
SifferBTW@reddit
I'd be curious why they are onboarding without completing the hiring requirements.
My background check was done through cjis. I have an old DUI on my record (which I informed them about during the application process) and was still hired. They tried to onboard me before cjis came back and I told them I wasn't quitting my old job until it came back and was fully cleared for onboarding.
Dadarian@reddit
Your background check isn’t “done by CJIS”. All CJIS background checks are completed by the agency hiring. It’s that agencies responsibility to perform the check. They’ll use resources available to them.
Expunged records can and be removed by an agency (and they should after certain retention periods).
Some of the comments in this thread are scary because I worry their agencies must not be destroying records properly. Now, it is state by state for how records can and should be managed. But again it really comes down to the actual agency doing the background check.
Records do get destroyed eventually, and agencies are also responsible for destroying their own records depending on the state’s requirements.
OP’s situation sounds a little weird, like working for an MSP that doesn’t understand how CJIS background checks work. There is no such thing as a “CJIS Certificate” that will grant blanket access to any agency. Each agency is independently responsible for background checks. Agencies can have ILA/IILA/MOUs between agencies and companies they work with, but the ultimate decision still comes down to the agency how they decide to handle that.
SifferBTW@reddit
If I wasn't clear, this is what I meant. It's my understanding that CJIS is a collection of services the FBI makes available to people running background checks. When I say "When CJIS comes back", I am referring to the result of the check. Not that a CJIS entity comes back with a ruling.
There are a LOT of places that will pass over a candidate if any strike appears on a check run through CJIS services.
Some expunged records can be removed from criminal databases, but some convictions will never be removed. I got my DUI expunged after my state allowed 1 time offenders to get them expunged. However, there are checks that will still show that conviction even though it happened 15 years ago. It's up to the hiring entity to determine if it's a hiring disqualifier. Some entities will throw away a candidate regardless of circumstances. For example, I could probably never get a job at the NSA even though my conviction is 15 years old and I've been sober for 10 years. Meanwhile, I successfully got my state job after my background check being ran through cjis services
tristanIT@reddit
You can run a CJIS check on yourself if you are so inclined. It's $18 plus fingerprinting. If you do all electronic turnaround could be 48 hrs. https://www.edo.cjis.gov/#/
loupgarou21@reddit
To get the CJIS certification you'll undergo a very thorough background check, the scope of which will be determined by the agency you're working with. You'll likely have a fairly long form you'll need to fill out. The form may ask for things like contact information for all of your immediate family members, all interactions you've ever had with police, detailed information about every employer you've ever had, every school you ever intended, every crime you've ever been convicted of, and even every disciplinary action ever taken against you while still in school. You may even be asked to fill out an essay about yourself and could even undergo a mental health screening.
Assuming the agency you're working with does their job well, they'll also likely have someone go through the form and your answers and verify with you that you've filled it out completely and give you a chance to add additional information if you left anything off. They'll then interview most of the people you mentioned on the form and verify everything. Even if your conviction was expunged, there is still going to be a record of it, so they will see it.
The number one thing that will get you disqualified is lying or intentionally omitting information on the form. If you were convicted of a crime and had it expunged, assuming there's a place to put int on the form, I'd make sure I put it on the form and was honest about it.
I know someone that just a couple of months ago who's CJIS application was flagged because she didn't inform them that she'd been put in a PIP at a former job where the form asked if she'd ever undergone disciplinary action at a previous job.
xendr0me@reddit
"To get the CJIS certification you'll undergo a very thorough background check, the scope of which will be determined by the agency you're working with."
This isn't true, and can vary agency to agency along with, what the persons role is. Do they just have unescorted access to an area containing CJIS, or are they working on systems that contain CJIS?
A standard CJIS cert for housekeeping/janitorial is typically a 15 minute training with an acknowledgement and a sysadmin working on systems that may contain CJIS is an hour or two training with a test at the end.
Any level of which, will still require an NCIC fingerprint/background check, with comes back within an hour.
loupgarou21@reddit
This is /r/sysadmin, not /r/janitorial. He also mentioned he’s a manager. Guessing he’d be up for level 4 or LASO, which is going to be quite a bit more thorough than level 1
Gnomish8@reddit
Since they're here, it's probably CJIS Level 4. Fun hour-or-so annual training, prints, NCIC check, etc... With an expungement, likely a visit from their LASO as well. I wouldn't be too concerned unless the crime was a financial/violent crime, or they try to hide it.
xendr0me@reddit
Could be! And yes, it's fu n, especially now that it's annual and not bi-annual.
jcwrks@reddit
You are correct.
I will run a DPS FACT + CHRI (includes state & fed) search on anyone who wants unescorted access in our facilities or domain. This is a 1 min. process and not considered a thorough background check. If your fingerprints aren't in the TX DPS database, then you must be printed by live scan or hard card. By doing so it enables FBI rap back.
Until your prints are in the state db, and I review your CHRI, you do not get unescorted access. Thorough background checks are reserved for potential new hires.
No-Error8675309@reddit
If it was expunged, then it’s been removed from your record. Most people don’t know this, but you have to go to the court and have it expunged. It does not magically happen.
jcwrks@reddit
That's not true for law enforcement. Expunged records will still be displayed.
RainStormLou@reddit
Expunged records CAN be displayed in some systems, but not usually. This isn't tv. Those records systems fucking suck compared to what we would expect them to be, and they don't cross-reference databases very well. The FBI has missed things that I have listed on applications more than once.
ihaxr@reddit
CJIS is done by law enforcement, so expungement has no bearing on them. The records are expunged in PUBLIC records, they're not removed from anywhere else.
Significant-Belt8516@reddit
I'm not sure what your charges are and you don't need to tell me. 10 years before I got my CJIS certification I got what is referred to locally as a "Trifecta", public intoxication, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest when a helpful officer decided I couldn't drink on my porch. The charges were misdemeanors and were not expunged. I got a CJIS certification, without issue, in 2018.
Depending on the severity of your charges I'd say that honesty is probably more important but I'm not an expert on the matter. I was working in the IT department for a very large city in the midwest at the time.
CEHParrot@reddit
You're fine in a similar situation and I passed .
department_g33k@reddit
You should get clarification. And also it matters what state you live in.
You say you passed the background check - was this an online/instant thing, or was it a Law Enforcement background check? I ask because if it was an LE Background, they almost certainly reviewed your criminal history record (aka "rap sheet") that would have already surfaced anything a fingerprint-based check would find.
FBI CJIS Security Policy also doesn't define a specific CJIS "Certification" - often it's passage of a class that goes over basic security and privacy awareness/cybersecurity training. The FBI policy just says you must pass a criminal background check and pass an "approved" course, but the concept of a specific certification about your background isn't in the policy.
Source: 2 decades in LE IT (in California, at least). DM if you have questions you don't want to post about.
caustic_banana@reddit
A CJIS background check is a level significantly deeper than the background checks that businesses run on you before they hire you. If you get a background check for CJIS you need to understand that law enforcement handles this and will know everything about your arrest, trial, and dispensation from the court. This does not mean they will reveal that to everyone as part of the cert, just understand they know, even if it's expunged.
The most important thing about background checks like this is that you do not hide the truth from the investigators. Yes, you can legally tell any employer asking if you have a criminal record "no" and be 100% right. But the FBI/law enforcement knows different.
The background check is trying to get at whether or not you can be exploited or blackmailed. Whether you can be compromised. Don't lie, they already know the answer anyway.
If anything in your background was of a level where it could be expunged, it is exceedingly unlikely to stop your CJIS.
Geno0wl@reddit
that can really depend on how long ago the event happened. Like right now if you are arrested for a violent crime then pretty much everywhere is set up for that to be reported to the state and then to the FBI for various reasons. But those well integrated systems only started coming online since 2010 at the earliest. So stuff from before then have a much higher likely hood of not showing up at all even for CJIS clearance.
I think you are confusing CJIS checks with Security Clearances. I have been through both and the CJIS checks are more about making sure you are who you say you are with a decently clean criminal history. It was the security clearance where they called all of my references and even some I didn't list and ran a credit check on me(people with bad credit and/or massive debt are considered blackmail risks). I don't think they called any of my references for my CJIS clearance.
And that is no joke. They take that super seriously. I have worked around CJIS terminals and they wouldn't even let cleaning crew into those offices(even though they have no logins) if they had a violent crime conviction in their past. Pretty sure we couldn't hire one guy because of a bar fight that happened 15 years before. That is also anecdotally why most of the support staff are all women...
xendr0me@reddit
CJIS certification is different then a background check.
A background check will consist of your information and fingerprints being taken in a live scan type system which will run you across FCIC/?CIC (state CIC) for any criminal history.
CJIS certification will typically be a online course, sometimes only 5 minutes, somethings an hour or two, depending on the access level assigned to you.
If you had an expungement done, and it was done properly, and it was approved by a judge, that record should have been removed from FCIC/?CIC.
engageant@reddit
The FBI and DHS can and do retain expunged convictions.
Farking_Bastage@reddit
The background check for CJIS WILL turn up expunged convictions.
RainStormLou@reddit
Can, not will. Also, doesn't necessarily disqualify you if it does. Depends on the charge among other criteria.
OkWheel4741@reddit
If it got expunged it got expunged, means it’s completely removed from public view no legal way for your employer to get and use that info, if they do bring it up go to a lawyer and get that bag
Mr_Fourteen@reddit
CJIS is different. Federal/state handles those background checks. They will have access to all records
FreeAnss@reddit
Yep, nothing’s really expunged. There’s an exception for everybody that wants to look at your criminal record. Once you have a record, it’s there for life and you might as well just go back to crime at a certain point because you’re not getting a good paying job.
Rawme9@reddit
This isn't really true. An expunged charge will basically never be an issue for private companies, just certain federal ones and clearances. Plenty of people make great careers without either
Specialist_Cow6468@reddit
Unfortunately for OP CJIS is a federal thing
Rawme9@reddit
Yeah, definitely doesn't apply to this OP's job but the person I responded to said they would never find a good paying job again which is a bit my much lol
Specialist_Cow6468@reddit
Very true
Zenkin@reddit
I was able to get decent jobs even before my two felonies were expunged. Missed out on some opportunities, but it wasn't insurmountable, and now I'm managing a few sysadmins with a great employer (and they know, I was upfront with them and my record was expunged a few years after I was hired).
jcwrks@reddit
If you're working for a vendor, msp, or anyone who provides technical support, then you could need a CJIS cert which would also typically include a CHRI/CCH.
However, if your company only requires you to have a CJIS cert, and you passed your employers background check, then all you need to do is take the proper CJIS online training. Your CJIS online coordinator keeps up with the rest.
Connect_Hospital_270@reddit
Not to freak you out, but my former employer that does fingerprinting due to CJIS just let a new guy go after HR failed to get his fingerprinting done before onboarding.
She had an underage drug charge from years ago.
engageant@reddit
You’re fine. If they ask if you’ve ever been convicted, be truthful and say yes, but it was expunged.
Tonkatuff@reddit
As someone who is responsible for making folks get there CJIS certs and keep them up yearly, I have no idea if your fucked or not LOL. But I bet it doesn't even come back on the report since it was expunged.
Crazy-Panic3948@reddit
ORIGINAL APPLICATION FOR ACCESS
PERSON WHO ALREADY HAS ACCESS
FELONY CONVICTION
Permanent Disqualifier
Permanent Revocation of Access
FELONY DEFERRED ADJUDICATION
Permanent Disqualifier
Suspension of Access for 20 years
CLASS A MISDEMEANOR CONVICTION
Permanent Disqualifier
Suspension of Access for 10 years
CLASS A MISDEMEANOR DEFERRED ADJUDICATION
Permanent Disqualifier Suspension of Access for term of deferral
CLASS B MISDEMEANOR CONVICTION
Disqualifier for 10 years
Suspension of Access for 10 years
CLASS B MISDEMEANOR DEFERRED ADJUDICATION
Disqualifier for 10 years Suspension of Access for term of deferral
OPEN ARREST FOR ANY CRIMINAL OFFENSE (FELONY OR MISDEMEANOR)
Disqualifier until disposition
Maintain Access pending court disposition
FAMILY VIOLENCE CONVICTION OR DEFERRED ADJUDICATION
Permanent Disqualifier
Permanent revocation of Access
BiscoFever@reddit
Was the doozy a felony? If so, with your expungement, were ALL of your civil rights restored? If so, this should not be a problem as long as EVERY detail down to the dates and circumstances of the incident, plea details, sentencing, jail/probation discharge, etc., are provided when you fill out the paperwork for the fingerprinting. You don't want to be in a situation where the screener is finding more details about it than you provided.