Netanyahu said finally showing signs he is ready to end Gaza war; IDF chief said to tell ministers, ‘Hamas is dead’
Posted by Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 314 comments
Palpitation-Itchy@reddit
But Reddit told me this war would never end because it would mean netanyahu goes to jail for war crimes or something like that
For the record, I'm all in for any wrongdoers being prosecuted
sulaymanf@reddit
The war still hasn’t ended. Remember when Biden promised a ceasefire by the end of the week while eating ice cream?
ElasticCrow393@reddit
Biden and his team were incapable of negotiating
redelastic@reddit
Incapable of and not bothering to negotiate are two different things.
anonymosoctopus@reddit
They got the November 2023 ceasefire. It was brief but they were trying.
redelastic@reddit
Biden oversaw the first year of a genocide. They poured billions more in weapons into Israel. They did nothing.
anonymosoctopus@reddit
The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive. If the November ceasefire had held, Biden could have claimed credit for it.
You can argue that he did more harm than good to Gazans but to say that he didn’t bother to negotiate is just false.
redelastic@reddit
I have little time for those minimising a genocide due to party allegiance. The instant revisionist history of Biden is perverse.
sulaymanf@reddit
Yeah pretty much, when you back Israel unconditionally and take their side in every negotiation on every single topic. Biden may have nicely asked Netanyahu behind closed doors for something but if he was told no then there were no consequences. It was just another voice at the negotiating table echoing Israel.
Biersteak@reddit
Wasn’t the situation that the mediating side, i think it was Qatar, gave roughly outlined point from Israel directly to Hamas as if those were the final offer without first making sure with Israel first?
redelastic@reddit
Was this before or after Israel assassinated the lead negotiator from Hamas?
sulaymanf@reddit
At that time Egypt was the go-between. The reporting was that Israel and the US had agreed to a ceasefire plan and then Hamas agreed to it and then Netanyahu announced that no there was no deal since the terms Hamas announced were not the plan.
Netanyahu was known for previous bad faith negotiation tactics; he would find out in advance what the PA agreed to and then would publicly refuse that plan, and he would find out what the PA wouldn’t accept and he would then publicly come out in favor for. This was all part of a strategy of stalling for time and he did it for years to block Two State negotiations. It seems to have happened here, or you can take his claim at face value that Egypt modified the terms and delivered them without telling the other parties.
ijzerwater@reddit
the option pause for 60 days then IDF continues destroying is not an and to war nor an acceptable proposal for Palestinians
Odd_P0tato@reddit
Israel court: No Netanyahu, we delayed your case enough, it’s time to resume Trump: drop charges Israel court: on second thought…
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20250629-israeli-court-delays-netanyahu-s-appearance-in-corruption-trial-amid-us-pressure
redelastic@reddit
In "The Only Democracy in the Middle East", even corruption trials are corrupt.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The US pressured Israeli courts to delay Bibi’s trials, so yeah, reddit was right.
Something_231@reddit
And Reddit was right for 2 years
redelastic@reddit
Firstly, I never believe anything in the Times of Israel.
Secondly, Israel does not want peace. It will continue its genocide and is never to be trusted.
Thirdly, whenever the genocide does end, its leaders should be tried for war crimes and as many of those complicit in genocide should be prosecuted.
Finally, Israel should never be forgiven for what it has done.
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Should Japan and Germany be forgiven?
redelastic@reddit
Germany are still arming a genocide today.
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Question dodged
redelastic@reddit
Current reality dodged.
MeGustaMiSFW@reddit
Israel should not be allowed to exist anymore (as it currently does). It has absolutely no right to “defend” itself. Free Palestine.
Whatever801@reddit
Might be conspiratorial thinking but I feel like this was all a ploy to bring down Iran.
Make it all the way to 6
self-assembled@reddit
It was just a ploy to kill Gazans and take their land. That was the goal from the beginning.
You forgot to add that Netanyahu had the IDF boost the casualty figures from 10/7 by killing their own people.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Hamas doesn't separate casualty figures and the IDF does. Whose padding numbers? If I know the next 18 months of my life would be rape, torture, and being paraded around as a prop for cheering gaza to end in death before my rescue, I would pray for the bullet. How about you?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The IDF doesn’t differentiate between children, civilians and fighters, seems like this is all on them, but its not surprising coming from you.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
So let me see if i Get this straight, I point out the numbers hams puts forward dont include distinction to see how many exactly have died of which class and your argument is "its the fault of the jews fighting against genocide"
Holy fucking shit.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Holy fucking shit, nobody buys your antisemitism deflections.
The idf doesn’t represent all jews and criticizing the IDF or the Israeli government is not criticizing Jews.
End of.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
You can certainly criticize the Israeli government. You can't argue they should sit back and let hamas murder jews
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Again, not a criticism of Jews.
Don’t make everything about Jews, noone buys that shit anymore.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Hamas wasn't founded to kill Israelis. They kill jews.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The IDF is a continuation of terror groups such as Lehi and Haganah, who were formed to kill non jews.
They kill non jews.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Actually Lehi and the Haganah grew out of the need for self defense after events like the hebron massacre and committed terrorists attacks as part of a tit for tat ethnic conflict arabs had been waging for decades and against british forces that were persecuting jews
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
They still murder babies to this day.
The IDF is a terrorist organization that is bigger and deadlier than Hamas.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Thank you for accepting the fact that since the beginning its been defense against arab aggression. Yes the IDF kills children. And yes its better if they had lived. But once again arabs attacked them for being jews so they responded with violence in kind.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The IDF murder children every day.
They are a terrorist ogranization worse than Hamas.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Im sorry you feel that way. Perhaps read a few books or historical summaries of events and come to your own conclusions
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Hey, I’m not here glazing terrorist baby killers all day in every thread.
One day you’ll pretend you weren’t aware things were this bad.
Ala117@reddit
Cool it with the antisemitism buddy.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Your talking to the wrong person
Ala117@reddit
No i'm talking to the "everything the idf does represents the jewish as a whole" guy, and that guy is you.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
You may need some reading comprehension if you rhinksntuata what I said.
Ala117@reddit
You said "may", i say you do need to cool it with the antisemitism buddy, disliking the idf's child murder does not mean agreeing with hitler.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Not really sure what your trying to say. Jews defending themselves isnt anti Semitic. Approving of such isnt. If you want play some kinda of "gotcha" game don't be vague and obtuse. Say, what you mean
Ala117@reddit
Claiming that this is "jews defending themselves" is antisemitic though.
Also you
Take your own advice.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
When hamas is targeting and celebrated the murder of jews it's jews defending themselves
Ala117@reddit
There was no hamas targeting and celebrating the murder of jews in the video i've linked you.
israel is also targeting and celebrating the murder of Palestinians.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Hamas was literally founded with an express goal of murdering every jew that lives
Ala117@reddit
the idf was literally founded with an express goal of murdering every palestinian that lives and steal their lands.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Show me the charter
Ala117@reddit
You first.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp
Article 7 is the best one.
Ala117@reddit
knew you would use only the older and irrelevant one because the newer one and more relevant one would refute you.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
The charter hamas was founded and elected on. Like I said.
Your turn.
Ala117@reddit
Is still irrelevant, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Still waiting on that evidence for your claim
Ala117@reddit
You done moving goalposts now?
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
so let me see if I get this right. I made a specific claim about what Hamas was founded on and proved it and thats moving the goal post. You claimed the IDF was founded to genocide palestinians and provide a youtube video of Bibi?
So wheres the founding documents for the IDF that explicitly call to murder every palestinian that lives?
Ala117@reddit
Yes because one that's not what we were arguing about and two it's not proven.
You claimed Plaestinians want to genocide jews and provide an old and irrelevant charter?
Is your hero bibi's words not enough for you genocide denier? If there was no founding documents for the nazis that explicitly call to murder every jew that lives you wouldn't believe it either?
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Hamas was elected on the platform to kill jews and still has huge support. Your clearly not arguing in good faith and will do as sarte says and delight in it. Good bye.
Ala117@reddit
natenyahu was elected on the platform to kill Palestinians and still has huge support. Your clearly not arguing in good faith and will do as sarte says and delight in it. Good bye.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
please provide evidence of his platform to murder palestinians where ever they should be and because they are palestinian. Hell I'll even take murder every palestinian in the levant.
Ala117@reddit
"please provide evidence of his platform to murder evert jewish person where ever they should be and because they are jewish" You in the 40s.
Didn't you say "good bye"? or do you just want to have the last words?
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Sure
The historian Ian Kershaw observed that several passages in Mein Kampf are undeniably of a genocidal nature.^([16]) Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated",^([17]) and he suggested that, "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."^([18])
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
So this is Gaza, not calls to eradicate palestinians.
Ala117@reddit
Ftfy
You done moving goalposts now?
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Goal post hasnt moved. Your evidence does not demonstrate what you even claim it does let alone your original point. Still waiting.
Ala117@reddit
Yes it has, one moment you were "calling out the idf's atrocities means you hate jews" and when i easily proved you wrong you became "whatabout khamas"
Only because you said so? you'll have to do better than that.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Bye Felicia
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
No it isnt. Its the charter hamas was founded on and operated under when it was elected and when it started firing rockets at israel in 2007. They kept shooting rockets after they edited the charter to not be nakedly genocidal.
I gave you what I referenced and does prove what hamas was founded to do.
Now provide evidence for your claim or admit your made it the fuck up.
860v2@reddit
If this were true they would have done it at any point since 1947.
SquirtSommelier@reddit
I also love just spewing out points without citing them.
self-assembled@reddit
The Apache pilot who fired that day admitted in a live Israeli interview, he said he fired indiscriminately at the rave, and used the words "mass hannibal". https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430
A recent IDF report confirmed they fired 11,000 explosive tank/apache shells that day. A single one of those shells fired by a tank killed 15 Israelis, including 2 of only 6 young children who died that day, in Kibbutz Ba'eri in a now famous incident.
Sources collected from Israeli news and translated are collected here https://electronicintifada.net/content/how-israel-killed-hundreds-its-own-people-7-october/49216
860v2@reddit
You claimed Netanyahu had the IDF intentionally kill civilians to boost numbers. Nothing you just copy/pasted supports that.
KLUME777@reddit
Chaos of war. Fault lies with Hamas for starting it.
Every war is rife with friendly fire.
self-assembled@reddit
Except that it was done intentionally to prevent Hamas from taking hostages. If they didn't do that, the casualties would probably be closer to ~600 (Hamas killed about 450 active duty fighters so mostly soldiers) and they would have had something like 5-600 hostages. The world would have been a very very different place.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Fault is with those who do the killing. So as much as hamas is to blame, the IDF is much much worse.
KLUME777@reddit
That's not how the chain of consequences work.
Military personnel responding to a surprise invasion will be full of chaos and asymmetric information. Friendly fire happens in every war.
Hamas on the other hand, had the agency to launch the attack. Any outcome of the attack, Hamas owns.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
You can twist and bend reality as much as you like, but when your ‘moral army’ kills as many babies as the idf has, you’re worse than terrorists.
Easy.
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
„Nono, you don’t understand. It’s hamas fault that I killed my own people with an attack helicopter while they’re fleeing“ that’s how you sound like
KLUME777@reddit
Yes, it quite literally is Hamas fault. It wouldn't have happened had Hamas not attacked.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Give up. Zionists don’t care. In their world view they are blames innocents. They were forced to mass murder women and children, they didn’t really want to do it, their smiles, cheering, laughter and obvious enjoyment while doing it is somehow not indicative of anything, and if you don’t watch out they will do the same thing to you…
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
So does that mean Israel was genociding jews too? Or were they fighting a fucking war where civilians die all the time?
Something_231@reddit
Do you believe hamas had helicopters?
DanDan1993@reddit
Why would they need helicopters?
partnerinthecrime@reddit
The land that they willingly gave away 20 years ago? The land that is completely useless, tactically and economically, compared to existing Israeli land? Are you insane?
HoidToTheMoon@reddit
Netanyahu was a massive critic of removing settlements from Gaza. He wants Lebensraum, and he will kill as many children as necessary to get it.
partnerinthecrime@reddit
What is Lebensraum? What are you talking about?
HoidToTheMoon@reddit
Lebansraum means "living space". It is the concept that a threatened people (The Germans/Israelis) must destroy their dangerous neighbors and expand their borders so their race alone can live and breed freely.
Under Nazi Germany, a common tactic was to starve out the populations of occupied territories and conduct routine raids to further thin their numbers, then encourage Germans to move in to the vacated territory.
Most holocaust survivors, and their descendants, learn from the Holocaust that such depravity should be countered everywhere. Others, like Netanyahu, see the Holocaust as a playbook they can improve on.
partnerinthecrime@reddit
That makes no sense. There is plenty of space in Israel, it has a very small population. Its entire strategy, for decades, has been exchanging land with its neighbors in exchange for peace.
Furthermore, from a strategic perspective, expansion just increases their vulnerability. The only tactically relevant areas not in Israel proper are Judea and Samaria, the Golan, Mt Hermon, a few hills on the blue line, and maybe the Gaza Strip. Even temporary military installations beyond these points are untenable.
This is a deranged Nazi conspiracy theory.
HoidToTheMoon@reddit
There was plenty of space in Germany, too. Fascists aren't logical.
I know you're here to defend Israel no matter the context, but you can't use this argument when even apologists like you have to admit that Israel has and is creating more colonialist settlements in Palestine. Like, you can't say that Israel isn't trying to expand when they're literally taking foreign land through military force and sending colonists there.
PrimAhnProper998@reddit
The Israel of 1970 controlled more land than the Israel of 1990. The Israel of 1990 controlled more land as it controlled 2010 (or 2025).
Of course, considering the way you write you won't care about this.
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
You are ignoring what happened
Before yom kippur all israeli leaders were adamant on keeping Sinai. It was only after the war (where they would have gotten cucked if not for begging the USA for aid) when they realized it was unsustainable and gave it back.
In 1990 the leader of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin, was quite moderate - which was why he was assassinated)
PrimAhnProper998@reddit
Multiple states several times larger surpise attacked and still got beaten. Doesn't seem to be something to brag about. And Israel would have been fine without US stepping in. The US saved Kairo and Damaskus, not Jerusalem.
Unfortunaly that is true. From the 90's to today we can observe a redicalisation both in Israel and in the palestinian territories. Assasinations, terror and war have strengthened the extremists on each side, producing Hamas on one side and Ben Gvir/Smotrich on the other.
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
Israel LITERALLY threatened the USA that they would NUKE the neighbouring countries who attacked if the USA did not airlift supplies immediately. If you do not believe me, google the Samson Option.
PrimAhnProper998@reddit
It's interesting to see how different reports can be. Instead of outright fake news, in this case maybe something like 'Israel started it' the framing varies in a hard to see way.
What i mean with that is that you are no doubt telling me what you have read/heard in arab media.
I have read about the Jom Kippur war in german and english speaking media, both traditional and online.
One version apparently speaks about "Israel thrratened US with nukes" to get help, the other one "once the US found out Israel prepared their nuclear armed jets" they decided to help.
It's fascinating how framing and narrative choice can influence a story.
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
Here are 5 sources for what I am saying. You are simply pulling facts out of your gastrointestinal tract.
Hersh, Seymour (1991), The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, Random House
Cohen, Avner (1998), Israel and the Bomb, Columbia University Press
Gaffney, Mark (1989), Dimona, The Third Temple: The Story Behind the Vanunu Revelation, Amana Books, p. 147.
Farr, Warner D (September 1999), The Third Temple's Holy of Holies: Israel's Nuclear Weapons, Counterproliferation Paper, USAF Counterproliferation Center, Air War College,
Avner Cohen, The Last Nuclear Moment, The New York Times, October 6, 2003
PrimAhnProper998@reddit
Really? I can only see one: Chatgpt
🤣🤣🤣 Like come one man, try a little harder.
Oh and i almost feel too bad for you but it gets even worse.... Warners The Third Temple Holy of Holies: Israels nuclear weapons, you know this one:
It never mentiones Israel threatening the US, not even once. I just read it recently. 🫢🤣
You have no idea about what's written in the 5 documents 'you' provided, have you? 😂
From https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/israel-nearly-went-nuclear-win-1973-yom-kippur-war-172087
Dayan raised the nuclear topic in a cabinet meeting, warning that the country was approaching a point of "last resort".[352] That night, Meir authorized the assembly of thirteen 20-kiloton-of-TNT (84 TJ) tactical nuclear weapons for Jericho missiles at Sdot Micha Airbase and F-4 Phantom II aircraft at Tel Nof Airbase.[350] They would be used if absolutely necessary to prevent total defeat, but the preparation was done in an easily detectable way, likely as a signal to the United States.[352] Kissinger learned of the nuclear alert on the morning of 9 October. That day, President Nixon ordered the commencement of Operation Nickel Grass, an American airlift to replace all of Israel's material losses.
From Wiki
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
Liar liar pants on fire!
Again, google the Samson Option
DanDan1993@reddit
How does giving back Sinai Peninsula hold in your thesis? Israel shrank by quite a lot....
HoidToTheMoon@reddit
Hey look, somebody else who completely ignored the bit about Israel actively using military force to create and grow colonialist settlements in Palestine.
We're talking about the actions of the current regime. You know, the things actually happening in the modern day? You're right that I don't care about border design #1, #2 or #3 when Israeli jackboots murder children daily.
partnerinthecrime@reddit
The reason for Germanys expansion, from resource scarcity to debt-bomb economy to ideology, are well studied and well understood. They are incomparable, and your level of knowledge is reflected in your TikTok-level comments.
ExtremeAcceptable289@reddit
Israeli's:
Also Israeli's:
Claiming Hitler "was the most correct person there ever was, and was correct in every word he said"."
Wishing that another 6 million Jews would be killed.
"Lebensraum Needed for Israel’s Exploding Population."
"I can't understand the people here in the State of Israel who don't want to fill Gaza with gas showers... or train cars... and finish this story! Let there be a Holocaust in Gaza"
HoidToTheMoon@reddit
I notice you ran right the fuck away from denying Israel's violent colonialist expansion efforts. Did you think that, like, I didn't know about the illegal settlements?
historicusXIII@reddit
The land isn't useless, it just happens to be inhabited by "undesirables". The current Israeli government doesn't make it a secret they prefer the population of Gaza to fuck off elsewhere.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Why did they settle it in the first place if it’s useless?
DanDan1993@reddit
Is it a long ploy starting from the Hitnatkut when Israel dismantled and uprooted Israeli settlements in the Gaza strip? Did Netayhau have Hamas terrorists look through porta-potties for more casualties too?
The notion people here resort to conspiracy theories to explain their shattered world of their favorite freedom fighters committing atrocities is mind boggling
Whatever801@reddit
Undoubtably conspiratorial on my part, but I don't see any geopolitical player as the good guy. Ruling class ambition creates death and despair for the people. Happening everywhere always.
DanDan1993@reddit
I don't think any geopolitical player is the good guy either, it doesn't mean the world is suddenly working like a Machiavellian play...
Whatever801@reddit
Yeah for sure
BlackAfroUchiha@reddit
I completely doubt it.
October 7th shocked everyone. Know one knew about it.
Iran did not know, Hezbollah did not know, heck even Ismail Haniyeh in Doha did not know.
I also don't think even Israel took into account that assassinating Hezbollahs leadership would cause Assad to fall.
Doctor-Malcom@reddit
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
NYT: Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago
DanDan1993@reddit
By this logic US did 9/11 because they had Intel something was going to happen?
Had Israel resorted to attacking Hamas after that training, would you demand to view the videos of the training to say the attacks were preemptively or was Israel the aggressor even should they have eliminated the threat?
notehp@reddit
It would have been legally justifiable - unlike the attack on Iran.
Claiming self defense requires a) an actual attack or b) an imminent attack. Hamas training for an attack on Israel is most definitely more imminent than Iran running centrifuges. It would be equivalent to Iran testing nuclear weapons and running drills to shoot them at Israel - in terms of justifications for an preemptive attack.
DanDan1993@reddit
Iran literally calls for the destruction of Israel on a monthly basis basically, having a doomsday clock until the destruction of Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Square_Countdown_Clock#:~:text=Palestine%20Square%20Countdown%20Clock%20(Persian,Quds%20Day%20in%20June%202017.
Should Israel wait until the run clocks down before it is called preemptively? Wait until a few weeks before? Days? Hours? When is it preemptively and when is it unprovoked when you take this timer into consideration?
Also they literally tested a 2T warhead two days before Israel striked Iran.
https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/514209/Iran-tests-advanced-2-tonne-ballistic-missile-warhead
Will your answer change now?
redelastic@reddit
And Israelis chant "Death to Arabs". Does this justify an attack on Israel?
US intelligence said Iran was nowhere near having nukes only a few months ago. Funny how you will cite Iranian propaganda when it fits your agenda.
Why are Israel allowed nukes but others aren't? Israel is not even part of the non-proliferation agreement.
You lot seem to think Israel is somehow a magical exception - that it should be allowed to have nukes, commit genocide, commit war crimes, not follow international law - but everyone else has to follow different rules. The exceptionalism is galling but not surprising.
Personally wouldn't blame anyone wanting nukes with psychos like Israel in the region.
DanDan1993@reddit
While some of the government are in the audience of those chanting death to Arabs; this is by no comparison to a state run project of having a death timer, organizing mass rallies and constant rhetoric from the top leaders.. if you can't at least acknowledge that then this debate is kinda doomed...
I cite Iran propaganda because how else can we know of the Iranian military exercise? It's just the first source that I found, if it was by bbc would it change if the event OP said happened? You are deflecting here.
And no, actually. Israel is a hideous beast and not a magnificent creature. You are making up a strawman and attacking him instead of arguing to my points. all of those strawmans do happen to fit to Iran as well, which kinda makes your last statement a "no u" moment for Israelis against Iran, don't you think?
redelastic@reddit
I mean, Israel is currently genociding Gaza so I would say that is a pretty direct example of a state-run project that is literally bringing death. Should we be more scared of a clock than an army literally killing thousands of children, as Israel is doing?
Don't get me wrong, I have zero time for the Iranian regime, they are extremist ideologues - but Israel are extremist ideologues too.
It's a shame that Israel doesn't make a distinction between civilians and the regime, in the cases of Gaza, Iran, Lebanon etc. Like, please stop murdering civilians.
It seems you are picking and choosing when to believe from Iran. Israel meanwhile makes intelligence claims that it doesn't back up with any evidence - they're the 'trust me bro' of the world.
Again, Israel carries out illegal attacks and crimes against humanity and thinks it should not be held accountable. That is no strawman, that is simple reality.
DanDan1993@reddit
I didn't even bring up Iran. You saying "yeah but Israel is worse" doesn't somehow negate the facts I said earlier about Iran. Notice how you haven't answered a single question there because you are too busy deflecting so you engorge your moral penis in bashing Israel? Your whole manifesto has zero relevance to the topic discussed earlier, which guy I commented claimed Israel wasn't justified in attacking Iran like they would be justified in attacking Hamas, and I just showed it's the same thing.
Stop deflecting and address your issues.
redelastic@reddit
Iran is just another place Israel has attacked and murdered civilians.
I hope Israel stops murdering people soon but alas, a leopard doesn't change its spots.
BlackAfroUchiha@reddit
There was intelligence for sure.
Norman Finkelstein explained it best imo.
Mossad, Shin Bet, IOF, etc probably gets dozens of warnings and intelligence briefings everyday of stuff like this.
They have to decide what is important to focus and what they want to push the side and they probably did not way this intelligence enough.
Whatever801@reddit
I hope I'm wrong, just have a hard time believing they didn't know given the insane levels of intelligence and operational competency they've displayed over the past 2 years. That Hezbollah operation with the pagers and taking out all the leadership in like 2 seconds was absolutely insane
redelastic@reddit
The idea that one of the most surveilled places on earth could run drills for a huge armed attack in the open and Israel not know is just not credible imo.
Wouldn't at all surprise me if the entire thing was planned and that Israel sacrificed their own people to manufacture consent for the obliteration of Gaza and the attack on Lebanon, Syria and Iran. Do we honestly believe all of these operations just suddenly happened? They were in the pipeline for years.
Given the level of depravity we have seen from Israel, I believe there is nothing they would not do.
Biersteak@reddit
The defender has to be lucky every time, the attacker only once.
As competent as Shin Bet, Mossad and their intel may be, they are still staffed by people. People do errors and if not them directly then maybe higher up people who have to decide how to react to these gathered informations.
There usually is always one thing or another going on at organizations like Hamas, who solely exist to commit these kinds of actions just normally not on that scale.
So what seems more plausible, that Bibi and his government meticulously planned this multy stage 4-D chess move involving several external elements they have no direct control over and all the pieces fell exactly into place as they envisioned or that the information they got was prioritized wrongly, which led to a complete defence failure and from there one unexpected situation after the other led to what we got now?
Whatever801@reddit
You're probably right yeah
BlackAfroUchiha@reddit
Honestly it may be hard to imagine but it seems likely that Hamas just has far better security and they're far harder to infiltrate than Hezbollah and even Iran.
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
being able to coordinate by word of mouth and physical media underground vs over something SigInt can monitor is pretty fucking massive for Op sec
Whatever801@reddit
Yeah could be
DanDan1993@reddit
The difference between Mossad And Shin Bet.
Shin bet had ZERO humint inside and limited gathering of Hamas intelligence, given our government tendency to ignore their claim to destroy us and think they want "quiet for quiet" and just want more money and to keep their rule in Gaza.
Big misconception... That wasn't the case with Hezbollah and Iran which early estimates for clashes with them were significantly higher than reality. Shin Bet were mostly focused on WB, probably because our government was more inclined to "deal" with the WB issue than their Hamas buddies
Whatever801@reddit
Interesting, good call out. I didn't realize there's a separate intelligence entity for Gaza and West Bank. Will read more about this thanks 👍
I_AmA_Zebra@reddit
That’s too many variables. More likely they just pounced when the opportunities in Syria and then Iran presented themselves
RICO_the_GOP@reddit
Don't you get it "They" control everything. They clearly orchestrated the nuclear deal for Trump to pull out of and provoked Russia into Invading Crimea in 2014 by altering the geography of history so they would want a warm water port. This conspiracy goes back centuries before the fall of the Ottoman. All leading to a single pivotal moment when secret Israeli agents could go back in time and convince Al Huseinn to stoke the palestinian identity in the 1920s and 1930s just so Israel would have an excuse to reinvade gaza after it already had control and left.
Whatever801@reddit
Yeah prolly
LineOfInquiry@reddit
This is conspiratorial thinking. Israel didn’t let October 7th happen, it happened because they were overconfident and didn’t believe such an attack was possible. Then after it did happen they used it as an excuse to do the things they already wanted to do: aka the rest of your list. But it wasn’t some grand evil scheme, just people acting towards their goals in small steps every day.
bl123123bl@reddit
I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY
Once western media is allowed in Gaza and sees the atrocities of genocide Zionism will lose what little western support it had left
infant-@reddit
You think Western media is gonna care or show it?
ijzerwater@reddit
Netherlands, Ireland, Spain probably yes. Germany USA certainly no.
cookiengineer@reddit
Wanted to shout out that Germans care, even when our government is silent.
waiver@reddit
lol, not silent, extremely supportive
LazyGandalf@reddit
"Western media" isn't some monolith that all speaks with the same voice.
Ala117@reddit
it is when it comes to defending israel.
LazyGandalf@reddit
Claiming that all Western media defends Israel is just patently false.
Ala117@reddit
It defends it enough to keep it from facing consequences.
Arrow156@reddit
You got the cart before the horse, my dude. Regimes do whatever they want first, regardless of the consequences, then the press swoops in and attempts to sugarcoat things so people won't get disgruntled and start protesting instead of working or buying shit.
shugthedug3@reddit
Zero chance of that. They're refusing to even back each other up when one tries to show what is really going on.
redelastic@reddit
Most Western media will continue to ignore every atrocity.
A punk bank at Glastonbury gets more outraged media coverage than IDF soldiers systematically mass murdering starving people seeking aid.
meister2983@reddit
Zionism has plenty of Western support. What countries actually oppose Israel existing in the West?
And seems too early to end the war if this is genocide? Population not that reduced
LazyGandalf@reddit
It is possible to oppose Israel's actions without opposing the existence of Israel.
Ala117@reddit
If israel returns the lands and homes it stole from the Palestinians.
meister2983@reddit
That's not happening.
Ala117@reddit
Yeah i thought as much, ethnic cleansing is israel's goal and how it's found.
meister2983@reddit
Yes that's my point
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
That's a very naive point of view. They wouldn't care about it, not even one bit.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
This seems like a very pessimistic point of view to me.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Israel genocided over 80k Gazans (mostly children and women), and the US, UK, Canada, Austria, and EU haven't done anything about it.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
The US sure seems to be a stronghold regarding US support. I assume corruption or lobbying plays a significant role in this. Even there though, public support and criticism from some politicians have been largely swayed away from thinking Israel has done or could do no wrong.
There have been talks of "concrete steps" since it became clear that people were suffering massively due to aid blockades. And that wasn't very long ago.
Politicians and the public worldwide seem to be much more vocal regarding criticism of Israel's actions and the conditions of Gazans. Regardless of what actions governments have implemented to date, saying no one cares is simply incorrect and seems very pessimistic.
travistravis@reddit
A vast majority of the people in many western countries care, but the governments lean quite heavily the opposite direction. In the UK, vandalising military hardware recently has been said by the government to be a "terrorist act" by Palestine Action demonstrators. Three similar actions have been taken in the past, all connected to unjust wars, and this is the only one to be given the "terrorism" label.
In 1998, 4 women broke into a military base, and damaged an airplane with hammers in an attempt to stop it being sent to Indonesia where it would have been used to aid in the East Timor genocide. This case went before the ECHR, and the women were charged with "causing criminal damage", and were found not guilty because they successfully argued that they had done it to prevent genocidal actions. The lawyer for their case was Kier Starmer, the prime minister, who was one of the voices calling this extremely similar case 'terrorism'.
In 2003, activists damaged US bombers that were set to go to Iraq in that war. They did so in order to prevent war crimes, and two were acquitted, one received a 4 month curfew, and one was given a £250 fine. Kier Starmer was the defense lawyer for one of them.
In 2017, people broke into another airbase, to damage jets being sent to Saudi Arabia for use against Yemen in action that likely could be war crimes, but was described by the UN as "the world's biggest humanitarian catastrophe". It was among the highest value cases of intent to cause criminal damage in UK history. They were charged with criminal damage. They were found not guilty. Another point is that they were Quakers, who have been peacefully protesting since the 1600s, and have been breaking into military bases since the 60's -- and I don't think there's ever been talk of proscribing the Quakers.
Sadly in this case, it has been shown that Israel has put pressure on the government, and while the documents I've read about don't specifically say what they've asked, the response was about the sensitivity of engaging the CPS on individual cases.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Even governments seem to be increasingly critical of Israel from what I have seen. Here are some examples I am familiar with:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/10/uk-and-allies-sanction-two-far-right-israeli-ministers-itamar-ben-gvir-bezalel-smotrich-over-monstrous-gaza-comments
https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/06/1164346
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-the-united-kingdom-france-and-canada-on-the-situation-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senator-sanders-force-senate-votes-blocking-arms-israel-2025-03-27/
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/27/middleeast/germany-merz-criticizes-israel-latam-intl
travistravis@reddit
Sure they have occasionally said things, but their actions seem to say things differently. Also the statements seem to only be sometimes -- when they attacked Iran, the UK and Canada both made statements to the effect of "We will help defend Israel", despite them being the aggressor in that case.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
It is a growing trend to be more critical of Israel given the current situation. I wouldn't expect consistent change to happen overnight. But I do think there is some obvious urgency with some of this.
Arrow156@reddit
The US is a bastion to consumption. Goods, land, people; they all exist solely to be feed into the machine, stripped of their of value, and then shat out.
historicusXIII@reddit
The public yes, politicians no.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Even politicians seem to be increasingly critical of Israel from what I have seen. Here are some recent examples I am familiar with:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/10/uk-and-allies-sanction-two-far-right-israeli-ministers-itamar-ben-gvir-bezalel-smotrich-over-monstrous-gaza-comments
https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/06/1164346
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-the-united-kingdom-france-and-canada-on-the-situation-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senator-sanders-force-senate-votes-blocking-arms-israel-2025-03-27/
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/27/middleeast/germany-merz-criticizes-israel-latam-intl
10yearsisenough@reddit
A lot of people care about Israel's brutality and the loss of life in Gaza.
They aren't thinking about "Zionism" one way or another and that probably won't change.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Zionism sure does seem to be a driving factor in this. Zionism and jihadism are similar and fuel each other directly.
Arrow156@reddit
Can't speak to the rest, but the US has it's own crisis to deal with.
callmejellydog@reddit
Their Islamic neighbours didn’t lift a finger either. Don’t forget that.
redelastic@reddit
Yeah, the likes of UAE and Saudi only care about making $$$.
Egypt and Jordan bought off with US $$$.
So much for solidarity.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Should they have started a war? Against the US, besides, this tragedy has surpassed just religious lines, everyone on earth is guilty, but the US and Israel and others that supported unconditionally are even worse.
Also, some neighbours and others did grt involved, they were killed and bombed as terrorists.
That’s the danger, when you do anything, the west just calls you terrorists and bombs you.
Adorable-Database187@reddit
US supplied the weapons and the rest ignored it.
Khers@reddit
That’s not entirely correct. They actively helped and provided weapons.
ralts13@reddit
Eh anyone who still believes Israel's actions are completely justified won't have their minds changed now.
If it wasn't the first hospital or refugee camp I doubt the 15th will matter.
0WatcherintheWater0@reddit
And what will you do when the “atrocities of genocide Zionism” don’t exist as you’ve imagined?
Surely you’ll change your views and not continue your mindless hatred, right?
GothicGolem29@reddit
It’s possible they won’t be let in
paddyo@reddit
I wish that were true but there are a lot of people in the west who will be if anything a little bit thrilled, anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia among the right has become a huge problem.
Ali_Cat222@reddit
As long as bitch ass bibi here is in power they will never let any media in. I can't wait for this guy to leave earth at this point...
Kjartanski@reddit
The world lost when bibi didnt go to Entebbe with Yoni
Sloppykrab@reddit
And when it comes out that it hasn't happened?
Gaza and the west bank don't have freedom of speech or press anyway.
Plenty-Shoe365@reddit
keep denying the genocide. just like how people denied (and some still do) the holocaust, there are always going to be assholes like you who'll deny the genocide. which is funny coming from an aussie considering your country murdered a lot of its native population
Sloppykrab@reddit
That was actually the British. All that happened before Australia was a recognised country. It's also still debated whether or not it was a genocide.
We are all taught about the genocide of the Jews and it doesn't match what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. You might want to lay off the propaganda machine.
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EldritchMacaron@reddit
Sometimes, I wish I was this naive
Nothing is gonna happen, they'll justify everything and western countries will move on
forkkind2@reddit
What the whole place levelled isn't good enough?
azrieldr@reddit
western mainstream media wont care. youll have to rely on middleeastern or western leftist media to report this
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
I want to believe you, but unfortunately it's not the first time Western media (often owned by people friendly to Bibi and his peers) turn a blind eye when it's convenient.
slothcat@reddit
Something tells me they won’t be allowed in.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
I'll believe it when I see it. He has a tendency to sign ceasefire agreements and then break them right after. His government hasn't dissolved, his corruption trials are still on going, and he still has psychos like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in his wing that are doing everything in their power to keep the war going. Basically, he has no incentive to stop. He knows he's going to get chucked in prison the moment the war is over by either Israel itself or by the rest of the world. I'm not holding my breath.
blyzo@reddit
Yeah his poll numbers went up. So he won't need to start another war until they go back down again.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
It’s f-ing amazing that so many Israelis say they don’t agree with him but the more wars he launches the more popular he gets.
Simlin97@reddit
"Hmmm... I don't agree with his corruption policy, but I do approve of his Palestinian killing policy!"
Fadingwalker@reddit
That has been Israeli society since they kicked the Palestinians out of their own houses in the 40s.
Arrow156@reddit
Ding ding ding! To quote our big dicked 36th president...
MoChreachSMoLeir@reddit
Netanyahu's "unpopularity" (which was always overstated, you don't win constantly for almost 3 decades by being unpopular) was never about the atrocities in Gaza. The Israeli people are far more radical than Netanyahu on that issue, probably closer to Ben-Gvir and Smotrich than anyone else. 82% support ethnic cleansing, and 47% of Israelis believe that, when they conquer new territories, they should kill everyone they can get their hands on.
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
This happens in every country in every age in history
adrade@reddit
Was massacring 1200 innocent Israelis, gunning down hundreds drunk and on drugs at a music festival, and kidnapping hundreds of women, elderly, and children to live in torture and filth (later killing many) not launching a war?
Israelis will band together when they need to rescue or protect their own (and this includes non-Jews) and they will support their government, even when they mostly hate it, when doing so.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Good thing you are going to protect your own until the last hostage and Palestinian child is dead, eh? Those Israeli hostages and Palestinian children will never again attack you.
adrade@reddit
Honestly, I'm not even sure what this even means. I want all hostages released. I want zero innocent Palestinians dead. I want zero Palestinian children dead. I do not want war. I want a bustling, economically thriving Gaza - in the same vision of 2005 when Israelis and even Jews around the world donated money to help purchase agriculture and other infrastructure for Gaza as every last Jewish person was expelled from the territory and all Israeli forces left. There was a widespread belief that Gaza should develop economically like Singapore. Obviously, a war broke out between Fatah and Hamas, an election in the territory installed Hamas as government, no election has taken place since, nearly all the donated agricultural infrastructure donated was looted and destroyed, and almost all foreign aid has been spent either enriching the Hamas founders in Qatar (who became actual billionaires) or on weapons procurement and tunnel building (to the deaths and injuries of many Palestinian children).
Morgn_Ladimore@reddit
There was a deal in place that would have released all the hostages and ended the war earlier this year. It took months of negotiating to reach and would have happened in 3 phases. Phase 1 would see the release of some of the hostages on both sides. Phase 2 would have seen the release of all Israeli hostages and an end to the war. Phase 3 would started the rebuilding of Gaza with international help.
Phase 1 was observed by both parties. Just as phase 2 was set to begin, Israel promptly started bombing Gaza again, killing around 400 civilians. That was the end of the ceasefire.
So if you truly care about the hostages, your ire should be aimed at Israel. But I already know it wont. Because the reality is, diehard Israel supporters don't give two hoots about the hostages, just like Netanyahu and his far-right cabinet don't. They have always been an excuse to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
adrade@reddit
You're not being accurate here. Phase 2 of the agreement you reference wasn't even agreed by anyone, Hamas or Israel. I very much want all the hostages released, but no agreement was ever agreed to by Hamas to actually release anyone in Phase 2, so this framing where all Israel needed to do was agree to some agreement is simply false. The resumption of hostilities on March 15 occurred after both sides accused the other of violating the ceasefire.
But, let's be clear. The reason nobody could even start agreeing to phase 2 was because Hamas refused to cooperate basically at all. They refused to say which hostages they had already killed and which remained alive, and then they refused to give the condition of the remaining hostages. This pretty much prevented negotiations on phase 2 or 3 and how the war could end. Additionally, in phase 1, Hamas was not abiding by the agreed upon hostage release timeline and also creating these outrageous PR stunts when what should have been happening was actually taking the agreed upon measures, exchanging convicted prisoners for hostages in pursuit of the end of this conflict.
Additionally, throughout phase 1, rocket fire continued continuously from Gaza into Israeli villages. Perhaps they were being fired from other militant groups and not Hamas, but I think it's been shown some were still being fired by Hamas. The ceasefire was simply not being respected on the Gaza side.
During the phase 1 "ceasefire", Hamas was using the time to move weaponry, rebuild tunnels, and move fighters, which indicated they ultimately did not have the intention to end the war. This was seen as, if not a violation of the terms of phase 1, extremely bad-faith behaviour.
Morgn_Ladimore@reddit
Why are you lying?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-gaza-ceasefire-palestine-hamas-netanyahu-what-know-rcna197012
The way you twist yourselves into the most bizarre shapes just so you can defend Israel is remarkable.
adrade@reddit
Did you read that article? It literally says phase 2 was still in discussion.
Morgn_Ladimore@reddit
Phase 2 would start 16 days after phase 1. Israel wanted 50 additional days and for Hamas to release hostages in the meantime. Hamas refused. Israel started bombing again.
And just to fully get rid of the notion that the Israeli government considers the hostages a priority:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-08/ty-article/.premium/israeli-army-places-returning-the-hostages-at-the-bottom-of-its-gaza-campaign-goals/00000196-ac14-dce0-abfe-ff7c57670000
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-idf-document-lists-returning-hostages-as-least-important-war-goal/
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/world/middleeast/israel-finance-minister-hostages-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-hamas.html
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I could provide evidence that Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza from the first day of the disengagement. I could provide evidence that the disengagement was to allow Israel to consolidate its hold on the West Bank and ensure it can continue to expand. I could provide proof that most of what was smuggled into Gaza through those very very evil tunnels was food and medicine. I can provide proof that Israel has been mass murdering Palestinian children and other innocent Palestinians for decades. I could even provide proof that Israel wants to expand and that most Israelis want expansion. But I won’t bother. Because I just can’t bring myself to believe you. I just can’t believe that anyone who genuinely doesn’t want children to die would support a state that mass murders children.
adrade@reddit
Saying "I can provide proof" does not equal actually providing proof. Most of everything you just wrote is nonsense, and saying "trust me" unfortunately doesn't provide much "proof" on which to stand.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I can’t be bothered providing proof, because I’m certain you won’t care. I don’t believe you are being truthful. I think you don’t care if tens of thousands of Palestinian children are murdered by Israel. Anyone who truly cared wouldn’t support the state doing it.
adrade@reddit
I doubt you can be bothered by proof, facts, or truth whether or not you'd think I care.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Well I did reply, but it’s ok if you feel the need to pretend I didn’t.
adrade@reddit
Your reply amounted to, and this is a quote: "I can’t be bothered providing proof"
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Well, I guess then we’re both at an end.
adrade@reddit
Nevertheless, I'll take a moment to address some of your assertions.
"Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza from the first day of the disengagement." <- Not accurate. The 2005 withdrawal from Hamas was complete. Only after the violent and bloody Hamas-Fatah civil war did both Egypt and Israel actually start imposing a blockade on weapons entering Gaza. All this was done in conjunction between Egypt and Israel. ALL humanitarian aid was permitted through regulated crossings. ALL of it.
"The disengagement was to allow Israel to consolidate its hold on the West Bank and ensure it can continue to expand." <- So, what are you saying, that Israel shouldn't have withdrawn from Gaza? You can make up whatever conspiracies you want, but this is complete conjecture and conspiracy minded.
"Most of what was smuggled into Gaza through the tunnels was food and medicine." <- Not accurate. Sure, some tunnels were used to smuggle consumer goods into Gaza, but many were also used to smuggle weaponry, rockets, etc. Very, very well documented.
"Israel has been mass murdering Palestinian children and other innocent Palestinians for decades." <- Hamas operates from densely populated civilian areas intentionally. Israel leaflets areas before strikes and tries to mitigate unintended casualties, but yes, there have been deaths during each round of fighting. This notion that Israel is intentionally murdering civilians is quickly disproven by the copious amounts of work the IDF does to warn populations in advance of military action. Your conspiracy mind would probably say this is something related to PR, but these actions don't really get much publicity and your side's effort to wrap it in a conspiracy is just that: a conspiracy, totally unfounded.
"Israel wants to expand and most Israelis want expansion." Try to name me any other state which has voluntarily given up over half of the area under it's control in order to secure peace with its neighbour, like Israel did. If expansion was indeed its goal, and not just some racist dog-whistle, Israel would never have actually given up the land (or made so many offers over so many years to the Palestinian government for so much land in exchange for peace).
I can’t believe anyone who genuinely doesn’t want children to die would support a state that mass murders children." <- This is just absurd, primarily for the exact reason that Israel doesn't mass murder children. This entire current conflict started with Hamas literally murdering Israeli children and everything subsequent has been done in order to rescue the children and others Hamas kidnapped. Hamas operates from dense civilian areas specifically to put their population in harms way because they don't consider human life valuable as long as it's in pursuit of their righteous cause and they want to make it seem exactly as you apparently believe it.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I could similarly prove everything else you have written is a lie. But it’s just not worth my time because you will argue it’s everything. Because, fundamentally, this is about defending Israel’s mass murdering children.
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Ala117@reddit
Was massacring 1200+ innocent palestinians, gunning down hundreds of children and infants at their houses and schools, and kidnapping hundreds of women, elderly, and children to live in torture and filth (later killing many) before Oct 7th not launching a war?
adrade@reddit
Except your thing didn't happen.
Ala117@reddit
In your own imaginations, never been touched by the sun have you.
adrade@reddit
Yes, you're making perfect sense.
Ala117@reddit
I know, glad you admit that.
sshwifty@reddit
What's the line? "They voted for their government"?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The thing about Israel is that all the parties likely to get into power or coalition are expansionist and believe in ethnically cleansing Palestinians. There hasn’t been a single year since 1967 where Israel has expanded settlements in the West Bank and easy Jerusalem or build new ones.
But they want peace, somehow…
mega-cosmo@reddit
Many people also say they wouldn’t be Nazis 🤷♀️
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Unless he wants to continue avoiding his criminal trials or imprisonment for longer by using being a “wartime leader” as an excuse.
Bibi even enlisted Trump, Andrew Cuomo, etc., to help Bibi stay out of prison for his crimes and to clear his name.
Big_Red_Machine_1917@reddit
Netanyahu is a lot like Tojo Hideki. An utter monster who is surrounded by even greater monsters, who make any sort of peace next to impossible.
Kahzootoh@reddit
He does have one incentive to end the war - it’s harder and harder to justify exempting the Haredi from conscription the longer the war goes on, with many Israeli reservists serving multiple tours of duty.
The IDF isn’t built for a long war of attrition, which is exactly the sort of conflict that Hamas has lured it into- which is exhausting the Israeli military little by little, as we’ve seen from the increases in IDF casualties and an escalating series of Israeli atrocities against Palestinian civilians.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
An increasing number of veteran IDF have also come to front with what they've done or experienced.
It's only a matter of time before huge scandals happen that Western media won't be able to control.
LazyGandalf@reddit
What kind of scandals are you expecting?
Kahzootoh@reddit
There are discussions that the IDF’s data suggests that just shy of 400,000 Gazans are “missing” from the population- and that could very well be an underestimate.
https://medium.com/@m4xim1l1an/the-grim-arithmetic-idf-data-reveals-377-000-palestinians-unaccounted-for-59f747490e61
From what we know about how the IDF has used bulldozers and explosives to destroy the bodies of dead Palestinians, the ~50,000 dead figure that the media in North America and Europe quotes so often is likely dwarfed by the actual number of dead.
We know the Lancet medical journal suggested that the Palestinian death toll was just shy of 200,000 about a year ago; and they were working with limited data and access to Gaza.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/gaza-toll-could-exceed-186000-lancet-study-says
I’m expecting that the scale of the deaths will be over 500,000 once the dust clears and a census can be taken- an indisputable genocide any way you look at it.
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Maybe you want to actually read the things you’re voting past the tik tok headlines. The 400k figure is Palestinians who weren’t accounted for in the 3 major population centers, not expected dead. The idea that Hamas is undercounting deaths by 90% is ridiculous.
anonymosoctopus@reddit
That 200k Lancet estimate is horrible. They just multiply the number of direct deaths by 4 to get the indirect deaths. If you had another war with the same direct death toll you’d get the same result because you’re not taking any other factors into account. The number obtained is pretty much distinct from Gaza itself.
Jkatz88@reddit
The article you link on medium was recanted for being incorrect
Kahzootoh@reddit
It’s closer to being correct than being false. It went from 377,000 to ‘more than 300,00’ deaths.
From what we already know, the true scale of Palestinian deaths far exceeds the number that the media keeps quoting.
If the Israelis truly believed that not many Gazans had been killed, they’d stake their lives on a number- they won’t, because they know they’re killing hundreds of thousands of people and their goal is genocide.
Jkatz88@reddit
Wait so because the Israelis won’t stake their lives on the number is has to be false? Lmao okay bud
travistravis@reddit
Although the update just changes it from "300,000+ missing" to "Israel's 'aid' claims are literally impossible based on population distribution"
jdorm111@reddit
Lol, the first sentence of the first link you provide links to a corrective. Here it is: Statement about ‘The grim arithmetic: IDF data reveals 377,000 Palestinians unaccounted for’-post | by Maximilian | Jun, 2025 | Medium
The study this rather biased author refers to literally made no mention of hundreds of thousands of missing Gazans. Check. Your. Sources. People.
RemindingUofYourDUTY@reddit
It really is indisputably a horrific genocide, and there really are some 300,000-500,000 deaths that Israel carefully engineered. They knocked down every building, they bombed every hospital, they killed dozens or hundreds of doctors, they murdered first responders because they knew those are the people that keep wounded civilians alive. They block food, they block medicine, they block baby formula. This is a methodically planned purposefully executed unapologetic genocide that will stain the Israeli image and conscience forever.
Kjartanski@reddit
Which would make the perpetator organization a “Criminal Organization” right? Because of the War crimes and crimes against humanity
historicusXIII@reddit
Do you expect anything to see daylight that will make Western leaders do anything else but parroting the usual "we are concerned about civilian casualties, but Israel has the right to defend itself"?
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
I'm talking scandal between IDF members and possibly officials under the current Israel administration.
Foreign influence only has so much effect, let's not make it like it's the only problem in the world.
Lots of countries made the mistake of believing foreign intervention is the solution to their local problems.
historicusXIII@reddit
82% of Jewish Israelis is in favour of ethnic cleansing of Gaza source. The only "scandal" to the home public would be that the IDF killed too few Palestinians.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
paywalled, check for the sample size before you make things up.
GothicGolem29@reddit
The corruption trial could last a while and the result isn’t certain so I doubt he would get chug is in prison straight away from that. and it’s not certain he will at all. And the rest of the world won’t be able to chuck him in prison as Israel will almost certainly not hand him over PM of not.
And the incentive is the public wants a ceasefire to bring the hostages back to Israel
redelastic@reddit
Not just him, any Israeli government is not to be trusted with ceasefires.
skinny_t_williams@reddit
They will create their own red herring when they need it again.
JetFuel12@reddit
What difference does it make?
There’s ten times as many pissed off men and boys with literally nothing to lose in Gaza than there were before all this.
BepsiR6@reddit
The goal isnt to make them happy. The goal is that they remember what attacking Israel causes for them.
Gackey@reddit
Not attacking Israel also results in Israel devastating them, so might as well go down fighting.
BepsiR6@reddit
How did gaza look on october 6th 2023 compared to now?
Gackey@reddit
It looked like a concentration camp that occasionally saw Israeli militants rampage through.
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Concentration camp with Mercedes dealerships and beachfront resorts.
Gackey@reddit
Do we have to wait until Israel slaughters 6 million people before we can start condemning their behavior and drawing comparisons to other genocidal regimes? Perhaps ghetto would be a better comparison? Should we compare Israel's inhuman rampage through Gaza with the Nazi crackdowns on the Warsaw ghetto?
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Call me when there's systematic industrial killing factories shipped by train like cattle.
Gackey@reddit
The Nazis didn't start with industrial killing either. One of the first things they did was start forcing undesirables into ghettos like Israel has been doing with Palestinians.
BepsiR6@reddit
I looked at videos of how it looked and it did not. I think you should visit an actual concentration camp if you want to see how one looks. Skyrise buildings and luxurious restaurants typically dont exist in concentration camps.
Gackey@reddit
The fences and towers manned by militants from a genocidal rogue state is what I was alluding to.
BepsiR6@reddit
You mean on the border and not inside Gaza itself? They are also by the way fully able to voluntarily emigrate somewhere else.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
"The fence is on the border around Gaza, not inside the border, so they're not actually imprisoned!" what
BepsiR6@reddit
Countries having borders is literally prison
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
If I build a prison around your house and station guards so that you can't leave, are you not imprisoned even if the prison isn't your house? The fact that you like it and think 2 million people deserve it simply for the circumstances of their birth doesn't change reality.
BepsiR6@reddit
They border two countries that both decided to completely close borders to them. While it sucks for them, they also did cause it to themselves by being violent and hostile to everyone around them. I dont like it and wish they would just be peaceful instead of endlessly pushing war.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
Which ones? It's been 60 years since Black September. Which ones of the at least 60 thousand people (allegedly, of course anyone realise its many times that number and Israel is lying) killed since Oct 7 did those things?
BepsiR6@reddit
I dont get this nothing to lose thing. Theres always more to lose. Theres always ways it can get worse. I think its about time the people of gaza realized that and stop starting fights they can't win. Its been multiple decades of them doing endless constant violence over and over and suffering more and more from their own actions.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
No, when all of your family, children, parents, friends and so on are killed, you house is rubble and there are no future prospects whatsoever, many people don't feel like they have much to lose.
That's a convenient way to look at it by the people who are in fact routinely killing them whether they are trying to kill you back or not.
BepsiR6@reddit
Except Jews have gone through that countless times in our history and we didnt respond with self destructive behaviour and endless violence. We picked ourselves up and moved on and rebuilt our communities many many times, clearly there is another way then violence.
Im sure many german civilians who died in world war 2 especially towards the end werent fighting anyone either. Unfortunately that is war. Especially the nature of this conflict which is going up against a non uniformed enemy that does its best to blend in with everyone else. The hostages need to be handed back and gaza needs to surrender for the war to end. They can decide to do this at any time. There is not a single war that exists where civilians are not impacted, it should be clear to them and to everyone that the costs of war make starting one not worth it.
vlntly_peaceful@reddit
The fun part about having nothing to loose is that they won’t care anymore.
BepsiR6@reddit
There's always something more to lose.
callmejellydog@reddit
Agree 👍
callmejellydog@reddit
A lot less of them tho 👍
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Cheering on mass murder is expected from you. Not surprising at all.
860v2@reddit
Self defense isn’t murder. Bad take.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Murdering tens of thousands of children and civilians for decades isn’t self defence.
Bad take.
callmejellydog@reddit
Where you getting cheering from?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The thumbs up at the notion of less people is pretty telling. Especially when Israel has directly killed as many innocent children and civilians as they have.
Believe it or not, not every male in the 2 million people that populate gaza are terrorists and cheering on having less people isn’t a good look.
I know its confusing for you, but when you consider palestinians to be real people, like you consider yourself, it becomes obvious.
Glad I could help.
callmejellydog@reddit
So you don’t have a problem with the comment I was replying to (basically there’s loads of future terrorists) but you do with me saying at least there is less?
Juice-De-Pomme@reddit
? Did you understand what OC said or are you just cheering for gazan's deaths?
callmejellydog@reddit
Not cheering, I agree with them. Doesn’t change the facts tho:
West-Code4642@reddit
I suspect they want and end to the war similar to the end to the LTTE-Sri Lankan war in 2009 (which also resulted in similar human rights abuses. It did stop the war though via pacification.
Total_Hopeful@reddit
The difference (allegedly) is that they don’t have the weapons and means to attack
RandomPants84@reddit
Also they know that attack would intensify the death and destruction of gaza
Simple_Map_1852@reddit
The population was always broadly supportive of murdering Jews. The will to fight is greatly reduced. But more importantly, the capacity to do so is completely gone.
Ala117@reddit
The other population is always broadly supportive of murdering Arabs and muslims.
ElasticCrow393@reddit
There is also the effect: we do not want to have wars anymore. Yes there will be anger but after 20 months people will not want to know about the war for a long time and will think about rebuilding.
Ala117@reddit
And israel will try to make sure no such thing happens using the usual "maybe terrorist" magic words.
Total_Hopeful@reddit
We can always trust Ala117 to comment bullshit👍
Ala117@reddit
Speak for yourself.
Riddles_@reddit
that’s a very naive belief. even just calling it a war is naive
meister2983@reddit
Don't underestimate deterrence. Besides, it'll be a lot harder to get arms in this time
JConRed@reddit
It doesn't matter if Hamas is dead. The Israeli actions in Gaza and the West Bank breed real disdain and hatred toward them.
They are like a self fulfilling prophecy.
Shooting children, murdering NGO volunteers, targeting ambulances.
Acts like that don't just go away. They stay, they linger, they fester. They breed generations of resistance.
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
> Acts like that don't just go away. They stay, they linger, they fester.
October 7th is going to linger for the Israelis as well. If you consider massacres resistance then all is already lost.
ccountup@reddit
Me when the group of people I've had oppressed under my boot for decades actually fights back: 😭
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Me when oppressed jews in the levant decide they've had enjoy oppression and fight back + found a country and win for the decades to come.😭
860v2@reddit
“Fights back” aka rapes and murders civilians in their homes.
JConRed@reddit
So does concrete in wells. Or bulldozers through houses. Or coming home from the mosque to find that 'Settlers' have claimed your house and are currently in the process of throwing the contents of your prior fridge onto the street.. While actually laughing at you.
This has been going on for 20-30 years now or even longer.
Especially in Europe - it is always portrayed as a one sided thing, with deliberately framed statements and reporting of the terrorist attacks from Hamas against the endangered nation of Israel. Especially so in Germany. While neglecting to report on the repeated open calls for genocide, in public, in government and in the media of Israel.
But this has never been a one-sided conflict, and reducing it to the like, will ultimately fail to reach any form of lasting peace process.
Its an overall shituation, with lots of people that are hurt, displaced, or becoming more and more radicalised.
Yet, I remain hopeful that there can be a path to peace for the people of the eastern Mediterranean.
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
>But this has never been a one-sided conflict
That with which I'm happy to agree on and I'm tired of the online rhetoric stating it as so.
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Two predictions:
As soon as there is an actual offer on the table to end the war, many of those who have been screaming “cease-fire now“ for months, if not years will immediately reject the terms the moment they’re not entirely to the satisfaction of Hamas. Apparently “ceasefire now” can easily be “Hamas political and social power has to be preserved” for some people
Whenever, please of please, the war finally ends, you will also see a flood of people, most of whom would’ve said for the last couple years that they don’t support Hamas,gleefully coming up with all sorts of reasons to say that Hamas remains in power, and that somehow, Hamas is actually the big victors of this war. Not the Palestinian people, but Hamas
Yslackin@reddit
Where do you even go from here? Saudi Arabia or an oil state building one of their crazy civil engineering project is the only solution I think might even remotely work. I’m also an idiot so I don’t know anything
Kragsman@reddit
They aren't going to rebiuld anything dude. The plan is to annex 80% of Gaza and hand it over to Israel, while packing the remaining Palestinian popuulation in Gaza into a few block radius.
The blockade will continue, no rebuilding will happen, and eventually when people start dying by the thousands every day of hunger, disease, crime, and overcrowding they'll ship off the rest of the population in a "humanitarian" effort - send them to Lybia or UAE where they can be sold as slaves.
Meanwhile, Israel will turn its attention to the West Bank and finally find some way to kill the rest of that populaltion as well (a campaign they already started)
All_will_be_Juan@reddit
Inb4 they make them build a pyramid
ijzerwater@reddit
the beatings will continue until morale improves
human1023@reddit
Netanyahu had to end his offense war at some point. The question is will he try to go to another country to avoid punishment for the war crimes? Will they punish him in Israel? My guess is that he'll try to go somewhere else.
shugthedug3@reddit
No need, they will not punish him in Israel, USA or anywhere the USA has influence.
human1023@reddit
I think USA will eventually turn on him. Americans are slow, but they'll be able to figure out what he did wrong.
redelastic@reddit
Some Nazis fled to South America to escape prosecution.
Some South American dictators like Pinochet fled to the UK.
The question is which countries would arrest a wanted war criminal like Netanyahu. It's a matter of political pressure and many will not want to put their head above the parapet to ensure he ends up in the Hague where he belongs.
JetFuel12@reddit
Here’s a downvote back then. With your shit brain dead post.
“I guess he’ll move to Russia like Edward Snowden.”
JetFuel12@reddit
There is no other country. Do you think he’s going to buy a villa in Northern Cyprus?
He could go to the US but they’d just hand him back to whatever incumbent Israeli government wanted him back.
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
Only time will tell, but in our modern world this kind of time goes by extremely fast.
MeGustaMiSFW@reddit
Hamas is a boogie man excuse to keep an apartheid state. I’ll believe this when me shit turns purple and smells of rainbow sherbet
ETA: automod deleting comments only for length is really stupid. Especially for a sub with this dumb of a name.
Peeepeeepoopooo hope this makes daddy mod happy.
Arrow156@reddit
Yeah, right up until BiBi's authority starts to slip again. Why is it they always seem to resurface and rearm whenever that turd is at risk of losing power?
Andy-Martin@reddit
If only I trusted him to A)Actually follow through on his word and/or B) Not almost immediately go back on his word once he actually takes that kind of action.
the_sneaky_one123@reddit
Isn't it funny how they seem to accomplish their mission just when Trump's support starts slipping.
What an amazing coincidence. Isn't it amazing how the strength of Hamas always so perfectly aligns with their foreign policy needs. So lucky for Israel /s
Shafraz12@reddit
This sounds like he's losing the PR war and wants out while he can still claim collateral damage. Scumbag
ignoramus_x@reddit
Not believable
They are seeking to set up the framework for the media to manufacture consent for further atrocity
Israel promotes a "ceasefire deal" that doesn't include an end to the genocide.
When it is inevitably rejected, they'll blame Hamas for the continued bloodshed.
All their complicit stooges will push their narrative, and truth tellers will be shunned.
The US is not a mediator, they are an accomplice. This will only end if another party steps in. But the whole world has failed to this point.
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