Danish women to face conscription by lottery
Posted by thinkB4WeSpeak@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 107 comments
Posted by thinkB4WeSpeak@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 107 comments
Granite_0681@reddit
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but if a country is going to draft men, they should draft women too. If you don’t want to put women on the front line then allow them to serve in the thousands of other ways available in the military. Especially now that drone warfare is becoming more important, why can’t women fill critical roles.
I’m a woman and I’ve always thought it was crazy to only draft men now. We should also create a track for support functions in the military that don’t have as high of physical requirements so more people are eligible.
RealTurbulentMoose@reddit
I’ve never understood why the Selective Service System is only for males in the 21st century.
There are absolutely still some roles that require more physical strength and endurance. But to your point, there are tons of military roles that don’t. Probably most women aren’t ideal GIs, but the strength of the US military is logistics and support. There’s no reason why women couldn’t serve as conscripts too.
calloutyourstupidity@reddit
I would argue majority of roles dont need strength
Eolopolo@reddit
It depends on the war. If it comes down to numbers, then a lot of it is frontline.
There'd still be support roles to the rear though.
not_so_subtle_now@reddit
10-20 percent of modern soldiers are combat arms troops. The vast majority provide a supporting role. Even the supporting roles that conduct convoys and other roles that would be considered non combat arms but exposed to enemy action are relatively low.
We can find a place for anyone in over 40% of modern military forces (which are largely contracted out to civilians anyway).
Eolopolo@reddit
Right but most modern soldiers aren't fighting in a war.
The war in Ukraine is a good example for what to expect, with a majority of their force on the front line.. and that war is just so so brutal. Ultimately, if it came down to a draft, we'd be fighting that exact kind of war.
calloutyourstupidity@reddit
What strength do you need in the frontlines today though. M16, point and press button
Eolopolo@reddit
Firstly, an M16 isn´t light. Nor is the rest of the gear someone carries, it can be very heavy.
You don´t cut corners when running from cover to cover. You don´t cut corners when dragging an injured soldier under fire. You don´t cut corners with solider´s own lives on the front line. If someone cannot meet the necessary physical standards, so be it.
calloutyourstupidity@reddit
m16 is 3.4 kgs.
Eolopolo@reddit
Exactly. Held upright across a length of roughly 1m. It can take a lot.
Spazum@reddit
The idea behind male selective service was to get young soldiers on the field while the women are back home giving birth to the next generation of soldiers.
Phent0n@reddit
And since developed countries mainly seem to reproduce via immigration, conserving women isn't a concern like it was in centuries past.
boriswied@reddit
I dont know if you were serious, but i don’t think theres a single nation over population 1mil on Earth where its reasonable to say that that nation “mainly reproduces” through immigration.
EndangeredBanana@reddit
Most developed countries have a birth rate lower than it would take to maintain a stable population. The only way to not shrink as a nation is through immigration.
boriswied@reddit
Obviously many countries are below 2.1 fertility. That wasnt what was said. There are extremely few small population countries where there may in any given year be a majority of gross added population from immigration, but it is far from the norm on developed could tries and happens in none of the major ones.
Advanced_Scratch2868@reddit
Lol. 50 percent of women in Denmark give birth. Yeah, that is not low number.
cassowaryy@reddit
That’s actually abysmally low considering the replacement rate is 2.1 children PER woman
Pussy-puncher@reddit
Sounds like racial suicide
Sarg_eras@reddit
Username checks out I guess.
royalbarnacle@reddit
Err not many wars go on for 18+ years. During wartime women were more importantly being nurses, working in factories building bombs, etc.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Another big point is that modern drafting pretty much appeared with voting rights, telling people they could pick their leaders BUT in exchange in times of war they had to fight.
At first only males had voting rights, so it made male only draft logical.
muchm001@reddit
At first only white male land owners in America could vote.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Yeah, but a thing is that the US really never had a modern draft system like Europe where everyone (males) had to do military service, the US was never threatened by a land border, so as long as the US navy stood, the US basically had infinite time to train an army, while France had to keep army level with Germany, Italy, Austria and to a certain level the URSS/Russia.
muchm001@reddit
What are you talking about? We had a draft up until 1972 we never had mandatory service requirements which are not the same thing.
merc08@reddit
That's not really true. Conscript armies were common throughout history.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Modern draft is relatively recent (Napoleonic era) before you had conscription, but it was more about just drafting random people off the street.
Modern draft was when military service became a thing, so you had a pool of professional soldiers that acted as a standing army in case of a sudden war, a pool of conscript that were training, then a massive pool of reservist that already had military training and experience that you could mobilize in times of war.
France in 1914 had about 1.3 million active duty soldiers and ordered another 3 million soldiers to mobilize the day war was declared, it had reached over 2 million active duty by the end of August. Number like these were simply impossible without a modern draft system were you just had to hand over a uniform and a gun to any guy aged 20-38 and he knew what he had to do with minimal training.
merc08@reddit
The level of training is different, sure. But that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the draft being the same a conscription. It only changes the timeline from when a new person is draft/conscripted to when they can be effectively used.
The current draft system doesn't even speed up the process.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It was also a way to get rid of incels.
Horny 18 year olds are the worst.
esperind@reddit
its crazy how we can just have blatant ableism and bigotry towards the neuro divergent so long as we just imply they are sexually frustrated men.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
okizubon@reddit
Fuck me that’s horrible.
merc08@reddit
Which doesn't really work out that well if the society in question generally has kids later in life and doesn't take very kindly to polygamy.
Illiander@reddit
You do know that outside of the very pinnacle of olympic-grade athletes, men and women can train to the same level of fitness, right?
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Go to any gym, look at the average woman and man, and tell me that again.
Illiander@reddit
Yes, and?
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Woman and man don't have anywhere near close matching physical performance trained or not.
Illiander@reddit
You keep telling yourself that training doesn't matter. I'm sure it will help.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
It will help, but it's the army, everyone is already quite trained, and when it comes to two person fighting with knives in a trench, my money will always be on the guy in that situation.
Illiander@reddit
My money's on whichever has had more knife-fighting training.
Seriously, training dwarfs everything else. That's why we do it.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Exactly, but it's the army, everyone has that sort of training, so if everyone has the same level of training as a baseline, the stronger person (guys in this example) will have a clear advantage.
If you have two people with the same amount of training fighting, the person with a better baseline strength/endurance will almost always come out on top.
Illiander@reddit
Wrong. The person with the faster reaction time will have the advantage once they're past a certain point of training and skill. Because by that point generating enough power isn't the problem.
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
Have you ever wrestled someone/watched MMA/saw footage from Ukraine? Physical strength is extremely important in a fight, there is no way around that, all fighting sports are separated by weight class simply because a 220lb guy will absolutely destroy a 160lb guy, reaction time be damned. And even if woman have the same reaction time as men on average, once again the guy will win because better physical strength gives them the edge.
And it's not only that, soldiers are expected to run around in the mud under fire with 50lb of equipment, people in the artillery need to keep a steady rate of fire moving 50lb shells same for the loader in a tank, etc. Raw physical strength is an extremely important factor.
Illiander@reddit
Physical strength is trainable. And past a point more doesn't actually help you in a fight. And that point is less than you think. Especially if you've got weapons.
Levitz@reddit
And you are delusional.
Illiander@reddit
Yes, men tend to react violently when they lose to women.
DoFuKtV@reddit
Because no feminist under the sun would advocate for an egalitarian military. Feminism in 21st century is about female privilege, not equality, but I bet you already knew all this.
C4-BlueCat@reddit
Feminists have been advocating for it since atleast the 50s
-ANGRYjigglypuff@reddit
source?
Granite_0681@reddit
I’m a feminist and I’m definitely advocating for it. It’s about equity, not privilege.
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
That was one of the main arguments Phyllis Schlafly had against the Equal Rights Amendment, that it would require women to have the exact same civic/legal obligations as men, including the draft, since you can't expect to have your cake and eat it too.
SofiriChof@reddit
I think the only weird gripe I do have is with situations of young families. Like if they both get drafted who takes care of the kids? But I guess there are workarounds to this to avoid the problem I suppose
Granite_0681@reddit
I agree but I think it would be easy to put in a clause that if one spouse is drafted in a family and the other can show hardship if drafted, they are exempt. If you just draft men, you could still have gay couples that could both be drafted.
vaynefox@reddit
I hope that in this modern-day drafting, the government will also abolish draft dodging. In that way, regradless if you're rich, poor, or a son politician, you'll get drafted, no exceptions....
BOBOnobobo@reddit
Do you know how draft dodging happens?
vaynefox@reddit
Yes, you can pay for a specific amount for war contribution in exchange for drafting, your parents can tell the drafting official that you are the sole heir of a company that is connected to the government or if you're a son of politician your parents can pretty much easily block the drafting officer from getting you....
BOBOnobobo@reddit
You can also pay the doctor's for a fake handicap note. That's a lot cheaper and what will happen.
The truth is, people with resources and power can just ignore it no matter what you do.
LastStar007@reddit
🎶 It ain't me 🎶
Frank_Scouter@reddit
While I agree in theory, the Danish army doesn’t treat women and men equal. Drafting women into a sexist organisation seems a bit backwards.
Krilesh@reddit
If a country is mobilized to war it seems prudent to just control society. Draft people into wartime related functions or into the military. I think the point is that the homefront still needs workers or at least that’s an argument. But with today’s advancements you don’t need so many. And if you did, you should also draft people into homefront roles or incentivize them.
Of course this is under the assumption this is being done for a greater good but you take away that intent and it’s just complete government control, but hard to solve a problem as complex as someone trying to bomb you without rallying a bunch of people together to do something about it
Granite_0681@reddit
I kind of mixed my comments. For the track for support functions, I wasn’t specifically thinking of drafts. I think we should allow people to join the military into non-combat (or at least non-physical combat) roles with a lower level of physical requirements. We are seeing fewer people able to meet the stringent physical standards but there are many people who would serve if they could.
As for leaving some citizens back home to hold together society, if we include women in the draft, my assumption would be that the same total people would be drafted. It would just be split between men and women instead of all men.
haplo34@reddit
Most countries in the developed world are facing demographic collapse. Yeah I know that is not talked about as much as climate change because we're not seeing the effects yet but it's still looming above our heads.
BernoullisQuaver@reddit
Good thing too, climate change is an effect of human population overshooting Earth's carrying capacity by exploiting fossil fuels
historicusXIII@reddit
It's not that crazy when you're considering demographic logic. Women KIA can't make babies.
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
I keep seeing this nonsense.
Could you mention some examples where after a war, polyandry for women was mandated, and they gave birth to the children of multiple men?
Zedilt@reddit
Most humans are monogamous, who are these women making babies with when the men are at war?
historicusXIII@reddit
With the men not a the front or with men when they return from the war. And as last resort sperm banks, even in peace time single mothers using donated sperm is not that uncommon in Denmark.
BetterKorea@reddit
We don't make Babies anyway so
historicusXIII@reddit
The average Danish woman has 1.55 children. That's fewer than the replacement rate but better than literally zero.
Perfect_Security9685@reddit
They also don't make them when they aren't in the military
Granite_0681@reddit
There are many jobs that would not put their lives in danger. Also, women whose husband dies in action have a lot fewer babies too.
Drahy@reddit
Denmark's first female KIA was in 2010 in relation to putting women on the front line.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Modern warfare has evolved to such a degree that you could draft women and use them in many of the same combat roles.
Pussy-puncher@reddit
Such as comfort women, by the comrades and by the Russians if captured.
donnydodo@reddit
Why does the third woman from front have a beard?
merc08@reddit
In the cover photo? That's not an all-woman formation. The 5th and 6th person in on the front row are men too, as well as the 4th, 5th, and 6th (maybe more) of the back row.
PomegranateHot9916@reddit
for the record "by lottery" is already how the conscription system works for male citizens in denmark.
but you may be discarded before you even draw your number (you still have to draw it though) based on a couple of tests they run on you before you draw.
these tests include hearing, IQ and letting a doctor have a look at your physique.
all to ensure that conscripts meet a certain standard before they get in.
PS. it says "18" but you may be called in later. I was called in to draw at 19.
Great_Attitude_8985@reddit
I'd just score utterly low in IQ if i wanted to dodge the draft.
PomegranateHot9916@reddit
you don't need to dodge in Denmark.
you can just say you don't wanna. you can take volunteer work instead.
DoFuKtV@reddit
How hard is it to fail these tests intentionally? In Turkey, there is a health test, where people can intentionally fail if they gain enough weight to classify as obese.
PomegranateHot9916@reddit
intentionally? probably very easy.
just mess up the IQ test I guess.
and yes you will absolutely be rejected if you are too overweight or too underweight, if you are too short.
my father told a story that he was rejected because he told them he wanted to be a pilot, which he couldn't because he had very bad eyesight. you can't do that today though, needing glasses doesn't stop anyone from being a pilot anymore.
but I don't see the point in intentionally failing the tests to be rejected. you can just say you don't wanna and you'll be given volunteer work instead.
the danish military isn't exactly desperate for recruits.
ThroawayJimilyJones@reddit
Well that explains the obesity rate I guess?
King_Kvnt@reddit
What has been the public opinion on conscripting women? Does this include conscription into frontline roles?
Plenty of countries seem to be against putting women in frontline combat roles.
Local-Argument-8141@reddit
Denmark doesn't use its conscripts as actual soldiers.
It's more of a recruiting tool.
So to answer your question: nobody cares.
variaati0@reddit
It's a training tool for total war of national defence. One is trained into the mobilization reserve. It's just that Denmark hasn't fought home defence since WWII, so it might seem conscripts aren't "real soldiers" due to never being used for their actual purpose. Thankfully so.
It is also a deterrence building measure "we have a trained, equipped quick mobilization reserve of considerable size. We won't be an easy target, so think thrice before thinking invading us".
Conscript defence force military has perfectly completed its duty, if it ever fights a war. It dissuaded invaders by merely existing.
Drahy@reddit
Conscription has little to with INTOPS. Denmark's first female KIA was in 2010 in Afghanistan.
Mads563@reddit
You have a choice between a lot of roles/branches within the military, including non-combat roles.
Some of the have long wait times of course, but if you're undertaking an education you can delay your service
azrieldr@reddit
can't people dodge draft by internationally doing bad in iq test
Zedilt@reddit
They compare your result with your school exam grades.
officerblues@reddit
Imagine if you answer the opposite of what you think are the right answer and score 130 IQ?
azrieldr@reddit
well, thats a cheat code for next iq test
greenskinmarch@reddit
Me fail IQ? That's unpossible!
Avepro@reddit
What do people do if they want to dodge conscription ? Pretend they can't hear ?
DKOKEnthusiast@reddit
Honestly, usually there are enough volunteers to make sure that even those that pick a low enough number to be called up are not that likely to be called up anyway.
And since it's basically all-volunteer anyway, the recruitment officers are usually willing to give you some slack if you really do not want to serve. I know a guy who picked his number, said that he did not like it, and was told to just pick a different one then.
Functionally no one ever gets called up against their will. The only reason why we have conscription in place is mostly so that we do not end up a situation where suddenly, we do actually have to start conscripting people and then we lack the established systems for it.
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
There is the old late state roman method of cutting off your thumb.
Burroflexosecso@reddit
I guess your index might be better in these trigger happy times
blackestofswans@reddit
Get pregnant
TSMKFail@reddit
Get fat
-O1G-@reddit
You can choose do community work instead.
JustSkillfull@reddit
What?
Brunchiez@reddit
Move to Botswana lol.
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
I can't even imagine what I would do if I was enslaved in to an army... Though me getting psychological breakdowns on the daily would likely get me discharged pretty fucking quick.
LiteVisiion@reddit
I hope I never become as weak as you. Good luck!
Drahy@reddit
Or you meet new people that will help you get through it and you discover you can much more than you believe about yourself.
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
I can do that without becoming a slave meant to kill and die. Like, going back to university.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Source Code | Stats
SerendipitySue@reddit
4 months does not seem long enough for adequate training and practice. 11 months sounds better
Krilesh@reddit
Kinda scary to think less than 10,000 people currently protect Denmark directly. That’s not that many people. But you don’t really need that many to do damage I suppose
DoFuKtV@reddit
Danish men should try their best to avoid military service just like any men in any country. Your country is not worth dying for, at any cost whatsoever.