Company hires IT without knowing where they belong in the budget...is this normal?
Posted by Mindless_Software_99@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 67 comments
I was hired onto the company about 4 years ago as a sysadmin like role and was given the expectation to guide the company's IT development and operations. They indicated they were expanding and needed to have IT expand as well.
After this many years, there doesn't seem to be any progress in that direction. I've been pretty autonomous and indicated what needed upgrades and maintenance to not only account for current resource needs but also future resource needs as I understand them.
I've been trying to get a helper on board to assist in the expanding operations, but to no avail. I eventually asked them what their future plans were for an IT department with a vague non-answer of "we are currently trying to figure out where IT fits."
This happened at my last organization where I was promised that I would be leading an IT department, but then it fell to the wayside of disappointment.
I've grown jaded at this point. It seems to be a never ending supply of broken promises. I've been given high marks on my work and have gone above and beyond at both organizations.
Is it normal for organizations to not know what to do with IT/sysadmins? Should I just quit the field entirely?
Sprucecaboose2@reddit
IT and other departments like maintenance are not profit centers for most companies, they are cost centers. As a result, they are often not prioritized until something forces them to, like audits and compliances or cyber attacks/issues.
Serafnet@reddit
This right here. A thousand times this.
It's why I don't have any form of security besides Defender. I can't get the budgetary approval for it because they don't recognize the potential cost even when advised the amount of time a full system restore could take.
It is what it is. Make sure everything you've recommended that's been shot down is documented. Lest it fall back on your head.
Centimane@reddit
But, other side of the coin - IT staff are pretty bad at demonstrating the monetary value of IT projects. The cost-benefit analysis or return on investment. What management wants to see is something like
Or something like:
cosine83@reddit
Because IT staff aren't MBAs is primarily why. That's it. IT staff are treated like blue-collar workers but have organizational expectations of white-collar workers while few have the skills or attitudes of white-collar workers.
Centimane@reddit
Well... IT management should be expected to do this, and senior IT staff should be expected to participate in it IMO.
Apocolyptic_Gopher@reddit
I know you're giving generalities but some of the key parts of that aren't really calculable. Like "likelihood of a breach is xx%"; there are so many variables involved I'm not sure anyone could put an accurate number on that. You could probably get it down to a vague scale of "low, medium, high" but that won't work for an equation. I don't work in a SOC though. Just not something I've ever seen.
The same is true for things like "productivity value gained" on new laptops. Unless you're upgrading to significantly better hardware, you're unlikely to be able to measure it, especially across departments.
It's like buying everyone new chairs; sometimes it's just a thing that needs to happen. You can get by with the old ones for a bit but people might complain they're uncomfortable to use (like slow devices). Or you might only replace them when a news story breaks that they're death traps (like some new exploit). New ones aren't really a thing you can put a hard productivity number on.
Centimane@reddit
I think you can quantify these things, I don't think you're trying hard enough to.
The example of productivity from new laptops:
If at the end of all this there isn't a meaningful difference then an upgrade would be a bad call.
rswwalker@reddit
Well when they get compromised you can always say at least they saved thousands by not putting in an EDR system!
dustojnikhummer@reddit
But first they will blame you for not securing the network.
flepdrol@reddit
If you have a declined quote for expenditure of security tooling, you can use it as an uno reverse card.
gex80@reddit
Doesn't stop them from letting you go and blaming you.
flepdrol@reddit
My country's labor laws do, fortunately.
dustojnikhummer@reddit
Oh absolutely, that is when you pull out your CYA ticket "I told you a year ago"
MBILC@reddit
Sad but true, now if I.T could inter-company bill for everything they implement and do, suddenly I.T would become one of the most profitable departments in a company... but instead companies like to dump services and such on I.T because they might configure SSO, so now it is an "IT" service...so goes against their budget..
hihcadore@reddit
100% this. My old org ran zero antivirus, no MFA, common accounts for critical tasks until they got randomware lol.
810inDetroit@reddit
theyre seen as cost centers.
80hz@reddit
Yeah it looks like they're not expanding because it's already taken care of at the rate of your salary. Theyll spend when they have to.
VG30ET@reddit
It's insane how true this is, I've been given immediate approval for projects that have been on hold for month just because something affected a C suite employee.
80hz@reddit
The only people downloading this are the people that are getting exploited
gangaskan@reddit
Or massive hardware failure
PrecariousLogic@reddit
Unfortunately, you went “above and beyond” and demonstrated that everything is going well as is. Why would they pour more money in that department, using their ignorant logic?
InfiltraitorX@reddit
At smaller organisations I have found that IT falls under Finance because no one understands technology and they want to control the money aspect.
IT should be in the IT Department.. reporting to the board for compliance
National_Way_3344@reddit
IT falls under the CIO or CTO, a role that you should definitely have.
gex80@reddit
IT historically fell under the CFO.
National_Way_3344@reddit
It falls under the CFO because the business sees IT as a cost centre that needs to be controlled. Under this arrangement you get no frills IT - a laptop, mouse and keyboard that was hand-me-down from the last guy.
Nobody that has IT as their core strategy has IT under the CFO.
andpassword@reddit
Right. Mostly this is because the CFO did the accounting, which was done with ...computers. Billing and financial reporting was the only thing computers did up till the early 80s or so, unless you were REALLY specialized. So most computers were under the purview of the finance folks and it was easiest to have the CFO hire some IT managers.
Lower_Fan@reddit
Smaller companies have a ceo and maybe if you're lucky a coo or cfo.
VG30ET@reddit
IT falls under the COO at our organization (140M/yr revenue)
moderatenerd@reddit
finance or facilities...
STUNTPENlS@reddit
I love companies that have IT departments fall under facilities. Nothing like having your IT department ultimately managed by the same dude who approves toilet paper purchases and the frequency the toilets are cleaned in the rest rooms.
0RGASMIK@reddit
Work with a company that has IT fall under, building security. That’s right the guy who manages access to the building is the guy who approved IT spending.
Why? He was the only one with the key to the “server room.” Most places his job would be a third party contractor.
moderatenerd@reddit
and that's if they are good at their jobs.
DrFrankenDerpen@reddit
OMG, I just realized that the company I work for is a classic case of this. The CIO reports to the CFO, not CEO
Error418ZA@reddit
I got hired as a sysadmin many years ago, I complained and complained, moaned and bitched that things like backups are not in place, said thay had no money for rubbish like that, it costed them much much more when they got ransomed, I just laughed and laughed, and left the company, that will teach you.....
80hz@reddit
Yeah they genuinely don't care if they have an employee that'll show up and do the work every day what is there to solve, sometimes you need to take a random week off and let the fires of Hell Escape
largos7289@reddit
I was in an organization that lumped us into the facilities budget. We use to fight for the money too. I mean how are you going to argue that we meed 3 new switches but at the same time they need to upgrade the HVAC system?
Centimane@reddit
After 4 years they know where IT "fits". They just don't think you'll like the answer.
STCycos@reddit
it has been my experience that IT often falls under the finance dept. When I first learned this in the 90s I thought it was very strange until it was explained that IT being under finance streamlines purchasing efficiency (makes sense). My current position is like this as well. May very from industry to industry I would imagine. Is this what your asking?
SAugsburger@reddit
In some older organizations it is a relic of when most personal computers in many businesses were in accounting.
dhardyuk@reddit
This is the reason. Finance got computers first. Finance then got fed up with fixing computers for the other parts of the business so finance got a dedicated member of staff to deal with all of the computers.
Roll forward 30 years and finance can point out how cheap it is not having an IT department.
To change things up, ask about their cyber risk insurance and read the small print. Then start showing it to people.
Remnence@reddit
Find the nearest company lawyer and ask if they've read the compliance and compensation clauses.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Sure... at companies you don't want to work for.
Mindless_Software_99@reddit (OP)
In the future, how would I go about vetting the companies I work for? What red flags should I look out for?
gex80@reddit
Simple, ask what projects they are planning to budget for in the up coming fiscal year? If they can't answer it with some level abstract idea like "we're looking into getting a product to help with X" or talk about what they have budgeted this year, then there is no formal tech leadership
Compannacube@reddit
Ask them if they have a IT strategic plan in place, how it aligns with the business strategy as a whole, whether they revisit it each year, and what their goals for IT projects are for the next 3-5 years. The answer will speak volumes and lack of strategic planning is the primary reason you are having these issues with your current org. Having solid strategic planning is a good indicator of maturity.
changework@reddit
What’s your IT budget and can you show it to me RIGHT NOW?
Will you allocate a budget for IT so that I can manage it?
What benefit do you hope you achieve in hiring me?
What value does IT bring to your company now?
What value would you like it to bring?
Would you want IT to maintain the status quo or to add value?
What does that value look like to you, or would you cede authority to someone you trust to make proper informed decisions about IT?
twitch1982@reddit
Did you just fall into this job? Had you not worked in IT somewhere functional before? I think a petty basic question to ask to avoid this situation would be "how does IT fit into the bigger corporate structure?"
IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit
Well they gave some song and dance.
It's gonna be big, Jerry! Big!
Fuzzybunnyofdoom@reddit
Work for larger companies with established IT departments. Avoid small companies without established IT departments.
SAugsburger@reddit
This. Such crazy statements will be said, but generally only at orgs where management won't spend on IT say that.
Squossifrage@reddit
I consult for a living and one of the most common first orders of business for organizing a company is to clearly define Information Services' position within the hierarchy and budget.
Half the time it's under accounting and half the time it's under ¯_(ツ)_/¯ but where it should be is "Its own department reporting to either the CEO or CFO." It can charge other departments if it needs to be budget-neutral, but accounting will hate that because it complicates depreciation (although that's becoming less of a concern).
A dedicated Information Officer isn't necessary for the vast majority of small and even medium companies, but there should at least be a single C-level executive charged with not only the authority, but the obligation to manage IS budget.
jimicus@reddit
You’re looking at it from the wrong angle.
In very basic terms, most businesses think of IT in one of two ways:
If you’re looking for an employer, either will pay the bills. But only the latter will ever offer good opportunities for career advancement. Work for the former, and you’ll have conversations just like the one you’re having now.
Bright_Arm8782@reddit
Budgets are an excuse, they are just internal ways to divide up the working money the company has.
Nnyan@reddit
It’s common in certain types of businesses. Mostly ones that do not value IT it’s more of a barely tolerated expense.
OP: start looking for an exit strategy. Also don’t jump into another similar culture (understaffed and unappreciated).
tankerkiller125real@reddit
This is normal in smaller organizations, the solution is to stop being "the IT guy" and become the "solutions guy", start asking to join in on sales, marketing, engineering, etc. meetings, listen to their pain points, find out where they're spending insane amounts of time, then present solutions to those pain points and reduce the time spent of those things. Basically make them stop thinking of IT as the "computer and networks department" and make them think of IT as the "gets shit done and solves problems" department.
I don't know what kind of company you work for, so I'm going to go with an old manufacturing shop example.
Engineer: "Things for this part are going great, but we're spending a lot of time uploading the G-Code to a USB drive and getting them into the CNC machines, so it's going to be an extra day from the small changes we need to make based on operator feedback"
The pain point: Thumb drives are being used to transfer large CNC control files and the CNC machines are slow to get them from the USB drive
The solution proposed: A DNC Program on a central computer with a file share, virtualized network COM ports connected to every CNC machine in the facility.
Why the solution solves the problem: Engineers can now upload the CNC program over a 1Gbs ethernet connection (or better), and easily use the central computer to upload the control files over the serial ports to the CNC machines (serial because not all CNC machines have USB, and none of them had Ethernet, but they all had serial), this reduces the time for changes from 10 minutes down to around 2 minutes, significantly improving turn arounds.
Additional benefits: IT can now backup one machine for all production CNC programs with reliable results instead of relying on the engineers to remember to upload them to the main file share.
j2thebees@reddit
I recently got hammered by a printer rep, to renew a fools lease on a new machine. Company was paying almost 18K annually for a single high capacity copier (and of course “service”).
Bought the same printer from a warehouse (15% as much wear, practically new) for 3500, shipped to the door. Break even point 132 days, ROI 15K+ /annual not coming out of the cash box.
My primary gig currently is in manufacturing, and there’s a ton of inefficiency lying around all these places, with quick, measurable turnarounds. Might be writing a report that’s been sadly lacking in their system. I tell every kid I talk to “learn SQL”. You can get the basics in a weekend, and you’ll probably never work anywhere that doesn’t need someone who can aggregate data and help the count money.
Been doing heavy marketing chores for 2-3 months now, completely buried, and honestly would have left if I couldn’t have brought in help. As it is, it’s pretty great being, as you said, “the solutions guy”.
Sobeman@reddit
What did you expect? They promise you the world because they only want to hire 1 IT person. You were never going to "lead" an IT department.
rswwalker@reddit
Well actually he does, it’s just a department of one!
Affectionate-Pea-307@reddit
Just curious, how big is your company?
Mindless_Software_99@reddit (OP)
It's a company with around 200 employees.
rswwalker@reddit
Big enough to know better.
banned-in-tha-usa@reddit
I left a federal contractor company that did the same thing. I asked to be considered management and asked to hire for help and they hired a director of IT instead and tried to keep me under the director. I quit before that new person was even interviewed.
skspoppa733@reddit
Yes, it’s normal. They dangled a carrot in front of your face and got you to jump through hoops with no real intention of expanding the IT function into an actual department. Technology is clearly not a core business unit, so it’s surprising that they haven’t outsourced it outright to an MSP (probably because of cost).
If you really want to lead IT you need to approach it with more of a business mindset than a technical one. But that may be hard if you’ve been slaving away as a one man show catering to every tech whim, and haven’t been able to articulate the real value of what you do or don’t do.
simulation07@reddit
This is what gaslighting feels like
akp55@reddit
It sounds like you need to show them how IT fits into the org and then become the CTO or something
caffeine-junkie@reddit
That answer of trying to figure out where IT fits tells you all you need to know. They wouldn't say the same about accounting, HR/HC, payroll, etc if asked the same question. Either they are treating the department as a cost centre they want to minimize as much as possible or they are looking at MSPs to replace it. Either way it's not good unless the benefits and pay outweigh everything else, even then I would still start looking.
kagato87@reddit
Companies often don't know where to put IT. It's a common problem because technically we're operations but that doesn't really fit.
Until IT gets big enough it's not unusual to end up under finance, and I've heard of a few companies putting it under hr (which actually makes some sense as there's a lot of synergy opportunities there).