Interesting Pieces of Gear: Microscopes?
Posted by xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 48 comments
I keep wondering if there could be any usefulness in having a microscope around. Identifying particular microbes or contaminants, etc. Even just doing a quick check of overall contamination of a liquid. Have any of you thought about this or purchased a specific model? Are there useful applications beyond contaminants that it could aid in, such as identification or analysis?
What other interesting pieces of gear have you all added to your collection, that might be overlooked?
ryan112ryan@reddit
It sure on biological, but I’ve watched (in awe) guys who use a microscope to locate circuit board components which are burnt out or damaged. Usually a sub-$1 part can be replaced in a few minutes by a skilled person and bring back the electronic to life.
I can only imagine how useful this would be in an EMP.
NiceGuy737@reddit
You could do gram stain to help with choice of antibiotics. When I was a med student 40 years ago that was done in the ICU by residents.
Austechprep@reddit
I've also done this as an EE and resistors and capacitors are small and cheap, I have hundreds of all different sizes that I used for work, also heaps of transistors and power regulators, shitlloads of a specific microprocessor and comms modules. But once you get to repairing anything outside of the stuff you specifically work with it's kind of game over potentially. Being able to identify the parts is very useful though as they will have some extremely small writing on them usually, then if you have a good database of datasheets you might be able to replace some parts.
Maybe two dead radios can turn into one alive radio...
PrisonerV@reddit
The skill level and also inventory of parts are both quiet high in board level repair. Also they rely on electronic diagrams (on a computer) to help identify parts and electrical flow.
BrobdingnagLilliput@reddit
That sounds more like a dissecting scope. I've used mine to pull cactus hairs from my hand.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
True! I've done this before, as an EE. I totally meant to include that on my post but I forgot. Super handy application in recovering damaged equipment!
No-Minimum3259@reddit
It's a nice hobby and you can learn a lot, but microscopy is only a small part in the identification of bacteria, the detection of contamination and so on, and diagnosing is better left to physicians and veterinarians... There's a reason why physicians have to study that long.
As for a microscope, IMHO the cheap microscopes currently for sale on Amazon and such are all junk, both optically and mechanically. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned but a microscope needs to be made of steel, bronze and glass. No plastics, as little as possible die-cast aluminum. A microscope should be build to survive its owner.
I'm a fan of the classic inclinable microscope stands with the horse shoe shaped foot. These are abundantly available and usually dead cheap. Nobody wants them because they're monocular and apparently the current brains are no longer able to adapt to looking in a monocular microscope with both eyes open, lol.
I own and use lots of microscopes ranging from basic high school microscopes up to the large research microscopes en vogue between the 1960 - 1990's (Reichert Zetopan, Wild m20, Olympus BH-2S, BH-2T, ...). None of the three microscopes I use most has cost more than some 60 Euros. They're all three "classics": a Russian LOMO MBR-1, "expedition version", an Olympus GB and a Leitz SM.
FlashyImprovement5@reddit
Yes
But then I have had microbiology classes and have borrowed my vets to look at a few things
torrytown@reddit
We homeschooled and as a learning aid, we used a traditional glass microscope and a usb electronic microscope.
Other than this, in an EOW scenario I really can't vision how this would be useful.
Don_Q_Jote@reddit
I would suggest taking a similar approach as with other preps, which is... try it out before you need it. I love working with microscopes but
I think the difficult part would be in getting a good enough visual so that you can correctly distinguish good stuff versus bad stuff when trying to identify microbes or contaminants. Suppose you can buy or build a microscope that's good to 100x or 1,000x. That's step just step 1. Properly preparing a sample to look at under that microscope is another skill, step 2. Correctly identifying what you are looking at, step 3. If you can do all 3 steps, then the microscope was a good investment.
I don't do biological stuff, but I'm always looking at samples of metals, polymers & composites. I have some REALLY nice microscopes. It takes some practice and knowledge to know what it is you're looking at. For example, of the 3 pictures below: One is a US $20 bill, one is a sample of steel, one is a coffee stir stick. Can you tell which is which?
FOSSChemEPirate88@reddit
Is A the coffee stir stick, B is the 20$ bill, C is the steel?
Don_Q_Jote@reddit
If you want to see them in a bit higher resolution, i posted to imgur
Coffee stir stick
detail from US $20 bill
1084 steel, normalized
FOSSChemEPirate88@reddit
Thanks man - that would be a fun idea for a subreddit too, like guess the microscoped object.
I wish it was easier to focus mine too heh
Don_Q_Jote@reddit
I have some REALLY nice microscopes at work. These are all images I took just for practice. The first post was just reduced resolution just due to posting them on here. Originals are even much better than the second set.
Don_Q_Jote@reddit
Yes, yes, and yes.
Longjumping-Army-172@reddit
I'm not sure that there'd be any benefit from a microscope for anybody without a large amount of scientific training. There are water test kits that would be far more efficient for detecting contamination.
That said, microscopes are cool educational tools.. and fun to mess with. We've talked about getting one to play with.
Background_Ice_7568@reddit
I'm a pathologist, a medical doctor who probably uses a microscope the most out of any physician and although I can see some potential upsides - even I would put this somewhere near the bottom of the list of things to keep on hand in a realistic prep setting. Preparing, staining and interpreting a slide are not trivial skills for a novice in a resource-limited environment.
This sounds like a simple, straightforward problem that you could solve with a microscope, right? I have an infected wound, and I want to know what's growing in it. Just do a wound swab and make a gram stain to see if you're dealing with gram negative or gram positive bacteria, to help guide antibiotic choice (especially if you've got a very limited supply). Or, as you mentioned in the original post - I'd like to see if my water is contaminated, so I'll check it with a Gram stain. But even performing a Gram stain properly in a resource limited environment is a challenge.
And let's hand-wave that fact, and assume you've made a proper Gram stain that isn't contaminated, over or under stained - seeing bacteria requires a well-calibrated microscope. Do you know how to set one up? You can barely see bacteria well at 40x and, as a novice you'd ideally like to see them under 50x or 100x - both of which require oil immersion lenses, unless you've got a specialized and even more expensive "high dry" objective. Do you know how to care for and maintain a microscope with an immersion oil lens? They tend to get gummed up quickly when novices use them. And careful, if you break a lens, you're not easily going to find a replacement.
The reagents required to make what most would consider an extremely basic/simple Gram stain are not trivial to find, and certainly not trivial to replenish in a resource-limited environment. If you run out of, let's say, crystal violet stain, or you knock it over while preparing a slide - you're going to be up a creek. Other stains and preparations would require similarly difficult to stock/replenish reagents. An acid-fast (mycobacterial) stain, wright-giemsa stain or a roughshod hematoxylin/eosin stain would be beyond the scope (ha, no pun intended) of basically any resource-limited environment for a novice or untrained person to prepare.
And let's assume you've somehow mastered the staining technique - are you experienced at identifying what you see? A common phrase in pathology is - "the eye can't see what the mind doesn't know". You could be staring at an obvious deadly pathogen, but if you don't know what it looks like - you're still going to be navigating blind. Atlases can help, but they still only give you a handful of examples. Could you tell me what an obvious Corynebacterium colony would look like under the scope, and which antibiotic you'd choose? What's a more common bacteria that could look similar and trick you under the microscope? What are some key features to distinguish it from similar looking gram positive rods? Do you know how to tell if you improperly stained the slide, so a gram negative bacteria erroneously appears like a gram positive? What about the reverse, how to tell if you improperly prepared the slide, so that a gram positive bacteria looks like a gram negative one? Are you confident your staining technique ensured that you didn't contaminate your slide with external sources of bacteria? Is that Staphylococcus from your hands, or is it growing inside your water containers?
I don't say any of this to discourage you from getting interested in this stuff, and learning it now. It doesn't take much to get comfortable identifying gram negative and positive bacteria, and if you are going to be considering keeping a microscope and reagents on hand -- if you learn how to use it now, you'd be ready to use it later. But I would strongly advise to spend your time and money elsewhere if you're not going to use it properly. Scopes and reagents are expensive, and you could put that money to good use for other preps!
I do have all the necessary components on hand to make and utilize a gram stain, but, that's more a byproduct of my profession and training than it is a deliberate prep! I hope never to have to rely on this aspect of my training in my day-to-day life.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much for sharing your expertise! This was a super interesting read.
I certainly understand there are difficulties and limitations, particularly in a resource-limited scenario. I am definitely not more than a novice in using a microscope.
I was just wondering if there could potentially be some relatively simple beneficial applications.
I have been wanting to do some experimentation with microorganisms for fun and have a couple of different microscopes on my list. The investment isn't an issue since it's already something I want to purchase. But I do see what you mean about maintaining stock for the actual imaging processes.
I truly appreciate the time you've taken to share such knowledge and concerns. It's really cool to hear from an expert!
glytxh@reddit
There’s a whole process of preparing samples that is non trivial to also account for.
Enigma_xplorer@reddit
A few thoughts.
Microscopes are obviously useful for their intended purpose but I feel like you would need more information about microbes for example to actually make sense of what you were seeing. Without that knowledge, I'm not sure it makes sense to buy a microscope and dedicate the space for storing it?
Secondly, if you concern is about purifying water for example does it really matter? I mean whether it's contaminated with coliforms or giardia that's not good. Properly treating water should wipe them out. You also won't be able to see things like chemical contaminants. Again having a proper filtration method would be the answer here.
I mean if you had a microscope sure whatever it couldn't hurt to have it I suppose but I'm not sure I would recommend going out and buying one.
User_225846@reddit
I have a low magnification one that has been useful just for reading small part numbers and pulling slivers. Probably not necessarily for prepping, but a handy tool to have for general repairs.
My kids like to look at dead bugs with it, so it's entertainment too.
YYCADM21@reddit
A microscope could give you a lot of information & data...but what are you going to do with it? In a SHTF situation, you're not going to have the luxury of time or resources to conduct science.
Having the information is all well and good, but if you don't have access to a full lab to manufacture or otherwise obtain chemicals you need to correct the issue, it's data gathering with no purpose. It's a bit like worrying about how you're going to maintain your air conditioner during the summer heat, when the electric grid is completely wiped out. It may be good information to have at some point, but right at that time, it's pointless
AggravatingTouch6628@reddit
I use a microscope to check my animals for worms to see if they need deworming
rctid_taco@reddit
Giardia trophozoites are fairly distinctive looking under a microscope so I guess that could have some value. Visually identifying bacteria though is probably not realistic.
Paranormal_Lemon@reddit
You could see fungal spores, you probably won't be able to figure out what type. A good magnifying glass would probably be more useful. But you can get microscopes for really cheap.
Red-scare90@reddit
I'm a biochemist, and I have a microscope. Honestly, I don't think the average person would be able to make much use out of it. Even if you do find some cells, that doesn't really tell you much unless you can identify them, and most non cellular contamination will be fully dissolved in the solution and you wouldn't be able to see it with a microscope.
Utter_cockwomble@reddit
Also a biologist- I wonder if It might be helpful to identify Penicillium species for home brew penicillin.
Red-scare90@reddit
For sure. I think there are definitely uses for it, though mine is currently mainly used for my niece and nefew to look at bugs and lake water. It would be useful Identifying Incects, parasites in both people and livestock, types of algae, plenty of fungi, including yeast, among other things. I just don't think your average untrained person would benefit from having a microscope unless they put the work in to learn beforehand.
androgenoide@reddit
I have a microscope and I think it's a fun toy but I absolutely do not have the skills that would make it a useful tool. Do you think you would be able to identify the sort of things you'd see? Could you tell the difference between things that should or should not be there? What's important is the skill -not the tool.
My recommendation would be to satisfy your curiosity. If you find one at a decent price go ahead and buy one to play with. Maybe you'll find it interesting enough to do a little study and look into questions like this. Maybe it will be too much trouble and you'll just pass it on to some kid who can use it.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
Yeah I've used one before and I have some experiments in mind already. I was just wondering if it would also be useful.
Oldgatorwrestler@reddit
Who cares? Just filter your water through the right filter. No need to identify microorganisms if you are filtering them out.
burner118373@reddit
No. Virus/prions are too small to be visible, and most bacteria (good vs bad) can’t be IDed just by look. You’d need additional testing like staining, metabolic tests, etc. assume all water is bad and treat appropriately.
Source: me. I teach microbio et al
PeanyButter@reddit
In my humble opinion, with all the learning and research you'd have to do to be able to identify harmful contaminates/bacteria if identifying both are even possible with just a microscope, plus the cost of the microscope itself, you'd be better off just putting the money and time to properly collecting filtering water from any source.
Why waste time and energy proving what you probably already know about a water source? Easiest just to filter/boil it all to be safe.
NiceGuy737@reddit
Not that I'm recommending as a prep but it's not difficult to do gram stains to help with antibiotic choices.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
That is great feedback! I appreciate your honesty and kindness, friend. 😊 I think you may be right, in this case.
I just had one as a kid and have been wanting to get another one for some experiments, as an adult. I think I was trying to justify it haha
Comfortable_Guide622@reddit
As with all tools, unless you know how to use it, or know what you are looking at, its excess.
Doesn't mean its bad, just something to figure out (later)
mom2crazyboys@reddit
To see any microbes with a microscope you need to be able to stain your wet prep, otherwise everything will just look clear. You would also need to practice using one. You can buy prestained prepped slides from amazon so you can get used to using it.
OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit
Identifying microbes with a microscope isn't amateur hour. There are techniques for it that require experience and a lab. Mostly these days id is done genetically. And I don't know what contamination you'll find with a microscope that you can actually identify.
A magnifying glass, though, can be useful when examining wounds.
Most of the unusual preps I have involve microprocessors and electronics. I can cobble together things to manage lighting, run pumps, monitor fireplaces and freezers, etc. This is useful when I'm running on battery power.
tryatriassic@reddit
A scope is great in the biology lab, but honestly completely useless for preppers
gonyere@reddit
We have a couple of nice scopes. I use them occasionally to do fecals on our goats and sheep.
hollisterrox@reddit
I have 2 USB scopes. 1 is a microscope, 1 is an endoscope.
The endoscope has been useful for looking behind a big hunk of furniture, under an engine, and behind a pot light in my ceiling. Don't know if it counts as a prep, but it was cheap and I've used it several times, so I guess so.
The microscope I have used many times just for farting around, and I don't think it is terribly useful for SHTF scenarios. If you look at water under it, you may or may not see stuff floating around, and that stuff may or may not be hazardous. It really doesn't answer any questions.
I have used it to see what else was in my sourdough starter besides yeast , and to look at damage on plant leaves to try to guess my pest. That's about the only real uses it has had.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
Those are great examples! Thank you for sharing. I do agree that endoscopes can be super handy as well!
my11c3nts@reddit
You do make a good point just for like a quick overlook to see if anything is contaminated.....
I'd recommend looking maybe into a pocket-sized Leeuwenhoek microscope for just a quick simple glance. Heck, you could probably build one yourself out of some thumb screws and a grinding tool.And if you need a greater magnification. Put a lens in front of the objective hole, and then hold it up to your eye.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
Love this idea! OMG. Looks fun to make as well!
my11c3nts@reddit
But yes, as peanut butter was saying, .... boil and filter first, and then if you take a look and see nothing moving, you should be safe.
BrobdingnagLilliput@reddit
Interesting, sure. Useful? Not really. It's like a surgical kit - neat idea, but you need a lot of training before it's helpful.
ManyARiver@reddit
The Foldascope is a microscope with a paper base, small and easy to carry. You can attach it to your phone to get close ups. I have one in a metal case in my prep gear.
xX420GanjaWarlordXx@reddit (OP)
Oooh. Have you had a chance to use it?