Ford's CEO says China's EV progress is 'the most humbling thing' he's ever seen
Posted by FtDetrickVirus@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 489 comments
Posted by FtDetrickVirus@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 489 comments
wewdepiew@reddit
Guess what ford, maybe you too can bring back the Focus and make an affordable competitive EV, but never mind thanks for taking the focus away!
Novel-Mechanic3448@reddit
No one wants the focus. If you want an ev they have the mustang ev. Otherwise they have the mustang and their trucks. There's no reason for ford to be building dumb sedans no one wants but reddit
Ac4sent@reddit
It's only humbling because you were fucking blind from your hubris.
danby999@reddit
China's EV advancements are a direct result of the government's massive investment into the technology.
China financed billions that was spent on research and development as opposed to shareholders pockets.
Government has to be in the business of research/funding research or the ramifications will be felt by future generations.
Today it's EV's, tomorrow it could be energy or food production.
DetroitLionsEh@reddit
Is industrial espionage really that expensive? I don’t think so
earoar@reddit
The argument that China is ahead because of government handouts is pretty stupid when you think about how many government handouts the big 3 have received.
danby999@reddit
"The Big 3" have historically pocketed the government handouts.
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
*Shareholders have historically pocketed the government handouts
ischmoozeandsell@reddit
China confused me. I try to stay informed but their entire government structure just goes right over my head. I need an ELI5 on how their government works and the pros and cons
alexp8771@reddit
China gives out lots of money for people to start businesses. So think of it like the PPP COVID loans except a functioning legal system to prevent massive fraud.
Hoovooloo42@reddit
I'm definitely not an expert, but I've spent some time on the Chinese side of the internet and asked a lot of people a lot of questions about this.
As far as their involvement in the car industry goes, there are both "POEs", Privately Owned Enterprises, and "SOEs", State Owned Enterprises. POEs are similar to companies you're used to, and SOEs are something totally different.
Some brands from almost every industry are owned and controlled by the Chinese government. Some things like Tobacco sales create huge profits, and that money is used to subsidize other areas of the economy like SOE car brands.
A lot of Chinese citizens seem to be big fans of this practice. Some seem to be critical of it and would prefer the Western method of doing business, but they seem to be the minority there. I've talked to a few northern Chinese people who say the SOE cars are piles of junk that rust too quick, and they say that SOE brands aren't made with snow in mind. Others down south seem to have better luck with them.
But another thing to keep in mind is that there's a maximum allowed car age in many places in China, so nobody thinks they're going to own these cars for over a decade anyway.
Pros and cons? I'm not sure this is really the venue for that and the more I learn the less I seem to know. But that's the basics of how it works.
ischmoozeandsell@reddit
Huh, I don't hate that. I don't think the gov should compete with private industry, but it could be interesting if the government formed companies for the things it subsidizes. Healthcare for example. If the government started an insurance company instead of subsidizing it. Or housing, if they started a development and property management company instead of Section 8.
pdp10@reddit
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are government entities that finance housing. Many believe that financialization has driven up the cost of housing.
KderNacht@reddit
Fortunately, the Comrade General Secretary wrote a 3-parter on that, paperback available upon request to your local Chinese Embassy
https://archive.org/details/xijinpingthegovernanceofchinavolume1
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READMYSHIT@reddit
I've heard the following summary of how the Chinese government foster particular industries.
In Europe/US the hardest part of being a business is the start. Most don't make it a year. When you're talking about high tech products like batteries and solar the startup cost is also quite large, so a bigger risk.
The Chinese government identifies industries and technologies they want to focus on and then give subsidies and benefits for thousands of small businesses to get up and running.
Then when a few hundred companies get to be medium sized the subsidies dry up to some extent and the incentive is these business all compete with each other to survive. They'll merge/acquire each other until you're down to a handful of big companies who've the combined knowledge of many companies and have had to ruthlessly compete to stay afloat, and as such the ability to be efficient.
At this point these companies are champions of their industry, have the best technology and operate very efficiently and can compete on the international market. By the time they reach this point they'll be able to beat out European and US companies who tend to all have come from massive companies to begin with. The cost to take on a new area of technology for say Volkswagen is probably significantly higher in every respect and as such they can't compete if they want an ROI.
Basically it's a planned/command economy where the state dictates areas where they want to dominate and that will be the country's interest to achieve that.
They've obviously managed to do this for so many types of manufacturing, and most recently for solar panels and EVs.
They also don't appear to allow the heads of these companies to get too big for their boots. See what happened to Jack Ma of Alibaba.
It's all part of their own approach to maintain status as a super power without having to go the US belligerent military route.
Viend@reddit
You should highlight the one significant factor that makes it different to other command economies, it's a command economy that enforces free market competition within it rather than becoming a breeding ground for oligarchic systems like every other command economy in history.
Here, we have a mostly free market until you become powerful enough to influence policymaking and then you effectively eliminate the competition. China doesn't allow that, so it actually benefits from free market economics better than mostly free markets like the US where regulators eventually disrupt the free market.
READMYSHIT@reddit
Thank you. Yes agreed. It seems to be a good way to run the place.
pentaquine@reddit
If you think of the entire country as one company and it has one owner/CEO and some executives...
PacificCod@reddit
Here you go:
How China Works
Fofolito@reddit
Its complicated but here's sort of how it works.
At the top is the Communist Party and they run the government. Within the government are bureaus and committees who's role are to make economic forecasts, anticipate industrial needs and output, and how to minimize/maximize the national economy with the tools and resources they have on hand. Then those bureaus, committees, and the central party congress issue economic goals and make available funding and resources to achieve those ends.
The Government establishes what we would approximate as privately-operated, State-owned conglomerates that are businesses that own other business. These conglomerates exist for the purpose of being the point of contact between the State and the Economy, and they operate with the goal of producing a profit or an excess of manufactured value across their entire portfolio (not necessarily each business owned). The idea is that the government gives the conglomerate orders to meet the economic goals, then the conglomerates mobilize their various businesses and industries to meet those goals.
Individual businesses don't necessarily have to make a profit or operate in the Black. Their expenses, if in line with the State's economic goals and desires, can be subsidized by the conglomerate and/or the State so that it can provide the necessarily component, service, manpower, job opportunities, etc needed to meet the economic goal. If you're familiar with the way the US Military operates in the field, its a lots like that.
The General up top issues orders to his subordinates about the grand plan he wants to achieve. Each Subordinate then has an area of responsibility, and they use their own initiative to achieve the General's orders within the scope of his intent. This continues all of the way down the chain of command to the NCOs and team leaders who are given orders by their immediate superiors, and then left to achieve those orders according to their own judgement and initiative according to the Commander's intent. The General's orders are carried out and his goals achieved, not because every soldier did exactly what they were told but because they understood what was to be accomplished and they acted within the scope of their command to achieve that goal. Chinese businesses are the same-- they get their orders from their conglomerate, who gets their orders from the Party/State, and everyone works to achieve the State's goals according to their own initiative.
737northfield@reddit
I honestly think this is one of those subjects that you would need a 16 week college course to fully understand.
ischmoozeandsell@reddit
Yeah that's fair! You're probably right
stav_and_nick@reddit
Even then, there's always exceptions to the rules. Like on the basic governmental aspect you'd expect it to be top down; and it sort of is. But if a region has a very popular policy that goes against the central government, often times the region just tells the central government to die mad about it
Theoretically and according to how their government is structured, that shouldn't happen. and yet!
animerobin@reddit
People will act like they have some sort of crazy alien form of government but it really isn't all that different. They just only have one political party. The people in power decided to make investments in technology, and now they're making big advancements. The people in power here think the government investing in new technology is gay and electric cars are gay, so we don't get those new advances.
Thefrayedends@reddit
You're not going to sum much up about China in a few sentences.
It's not crazy to want to be competitive with then.
They have an insanely rich history and culture.
There are elements in every type of government that are not desirable to any given groups, but governments main function is to redistribute wealth. At the core.
China has been investing in long term growth with centralized planning. Investing in the working class, in infrastructure, in research.
China has a functional grievance system where people are allowed to engage directly with government.
Corruption is a problem everywhere in the world, but there are plenty of examples of their government stripping wealthy individuals found to be corrupt, of their powers and assets.
They aren't a boogey man, and they aren't a monolith.
If I could go back to age twenty, I would try to love or work in China (I'm from Canada).
ttoma93@reddit
Good thing the US is absolutely decimating all of our governenment funded scientific research then!
tim916@reddit
There's a portion of constituents in the US who seem to think that government investment is unfair, and worse, wasteful. I think one of the advantages of government investment is that it can support projects with long horizons, that might not payoff for decades. Frankly, I hope that the US manufacturers can learn quickly from the Chinese EV industry because we can't protect them forever.
generalright@reddit
That’s some emotional nonsense. I just took a trip to Jackson and Yellowstone, not an EV in sight. You know why? Useless in the vast expanse of country. EVs only really work in cities and even then only as a small percentage of total automobiles. You’ll never see 100% EV adoption. The logistics and infrastructure is not there.
fiah84@reddit
no, most work just fine for road trips, some are even great for long trips, arguably better even than the equivalent gas cars depending on energy prices. Yes there are some EVs out there that are a pain in the ass to road trip with that you could classify as only suitable for cities, but if you paint all EVs with that brush you're making a mistake
if you saw my EV you'd immediately dismiss it as useless for anything other than the city, but I did a 650 mile road trip yesterday just fine and paid less for charging than gas would've cost me
generalright@reddit
Ya roadtrip to other CITIES. If you go to Yellowstone from Jackson Hole and back, that’s 300 miles. I didn’t see any charging stations in Yellowstone.
fiah84@reddit
sounds like a business opportunity. Also consider that you might not have seen any because you weren't really looking. It's not like gas stations, you know, they can be quite small and hidden from view so if you're not actively searching you might just pass one without even noticing
generalright@reddit
No offense buddy, but it looks like you are in Europe. America just has different needs. The cities and suburbs can handle some amount of EV infrastructure, but when you go into nature, gas is king.
Simon_787@reddit
America just has different people that complain a bunch instead of solving problems.
fiah84@reddit
still completely dependent on existing infrastructure. You could charge an EV completely off the grid with a bunch of solar panels if need be. Try making your own gas for your car and see how that works for you
America does have long distances yes, and that does make it more challenging to create a good enough infrastructure for EVs than it is in Europe. They managed to create that just fine for gassers though, so what's the problem?
generalright@reddit
I can’t even begin to address your ignorance lol. Buddy, gas sitting in your tank for a week can get you through a long distance nature incursion. Not everyone has thousands of dollars to buy solar panels to power an EV. America has vast expanses of land without infrastructure. Yellowstone for example has very little electricity. Europe does not have that problem because it’s been settled for thousands of years and has countless cities from coast to coast. You need to see more of the world before you make grand proclamations.
fiah84@reddit
yes, and what do you think an EV battery does? Are you imagining it's empty after sitting a week? Not how it works
then where are you getting the gas? If you got gas, what's the reason that you couldn't charge an EV there?
that wasn't my point. My point is that gas vehicles are dependent on infrastructure just as much as EVs, or perhaps even more. Like I said, a bunch of solar panels and a grid forming inverter could be installed anywhere and charge any EV as long as there's sun, without any further support, no grid, no oil, no refineries, no transport. They could sit there and (slowly) charge cars all year without ever needing a fuel truck to top it off. Those areas with little electricity you mentioned could easily be bolstered by solar and wind power, if there was actually any political will to move this forward
generalright@reddit
Have you ever spent a week out camping? You run out of juice and then what? You can bring gas with you and you can find gas stations readily in the USA because that infrastructure is built out.
A bunch of solar panels could charge 1 EV in 2 days sure. I know you aren’t suggesting that they could be installed and work as a charging station year round for hundreds of vehicles. You couldn’t be that stupid.
fiah84@reddit
good day to you too
Jgusdaddy@reddit
GM had the ev1 over a decade before Tesla and killed it. America dragged its feet and stifled innovation for easy money: enshittification and cost cutting.
pdp10@reddit
A car that cost perhaps four times as much to make as it sold or leased for. The GM EV1 also lacked access to volume lithium-ion cell production, which came on-line through the 1990s.
The low domestic prices of the PRC EVs are lower than they cost to produce as well. The BYD Seagull compact EV famous for its low domestic price in the PRC, sells for more than twice as much in Mexico. That Mexican retail price is higher than many used electric cars in the U.S.
Low profit is a reason why U.S. automakers would be wary of EVs. They have expensive union labor to pay. Fast depreciation is a reason why U.S. car buyers would be wary of EVs.
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Recoil42@reddit
Round of applause for this sub, which suppressed legitimate discussion of Chinese cars for years, creating such an information vacuum about the world's largest auto exporter (and world's largest automotive market) that we now have to endure weekly threads full of flame wars and conspiracy theories from car enthusiasts blinded by the reality that manufacturing countries are good at manufacturing.
future_web_dev@reddit
You’d think people would know better after what happened to the Japanese cars.
GoodbyeBluesGuy@reddit
What happened to Japanese cars? Oh you mean they used to be dismissed and then they got better than American cars?
nismotigerwvu@reddit
Exactly. The EV transition is a perfect storm for market disruption as well since there isn't the barrier of the incumbents having decades of experience perfecting the art. It's still far too early to tell who is going the path of Toyota and who will be AMC this round but it's going to be a wild ride.
devilpants@reddit
Funny because man Toyota decided to go all in on hydrogen and built themselves one of the greatest blunders of all time, the Mirai instead of focusing on all electrics. Their current all electric offering is awful.
nismotigerwvu@reddit
Yeah that was definitely a case of putting the cart before the horse. The wild thing about those hydrogen cars is that even if some brilliant chemical engineer sorted out storing and transporting hydrogen, there's no guarantee that's it's going to be in form that's amenable to their vehicles, or that any of the lessons learned would be helpful. At least with EVs it's more a matter of waiting for a relatively mature technology like batteries to mature enough to be viable.
WingerRules@reddit
Japanese cars and electronics both used to be considered total garbage.
miscfiles@reddit
And exactly the same with Korean cars a couple of decades later. Now it's China's turn, which happens to coincide with electric cars going mainstream.
sioux612@reddit
We've been driving Ssangyong vehicles at work and they are remarkably good
Yes their driving dynamics are a bit soft and wobbly, but thats most SUVs that aren't sporty. Their interior is solid, they have software options that I have never ever seen in a different car (I can mirror the entire center display onto the driver display including Android Auto, while Audi can't even show a GPS map there anymore), and their hardware is solid enough from all we can say so far
miscfiles@reddit
Chinese brands are really starting to take off here in the UK. We've had MGs for a long while now, using the British marque to ease the public into accepting Chinese-made cars. More recently BYD has opened a load of dealerships (including in my small town) and I'm seeing a lot of GWM and Jaecoo vehicles on the road. I imagine they're selling even more across Europe where there's no added cost of building RHD versions.
KderNacht@reddit
It will never cease to amuse me that not even BMW could force MG-Rover to make reliable cars and what's needed was a complete collapse and a Chinese folk opera of industrial scavenging.
miscfiles@reddit
They made some relatively reliable cars during the Honda years, to be fair. The BMW partnership didn't pay off for MG Rover, but BMW picked up a rather useful brand name.
KderNacht@reddit
But the Rover 75 is actually a Rover, not a BMW in a cheap frock.
All of the cars during the Honda years would've been sold as Acuras if the deal weren't there, and they'd have been better put together to boot.
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
The Chinese cars we are getting in the UK are unfortunately not the best that China has to offer. There are lot of far better cars in China, which will hopefully come to the UK one day.
budgefrankly@reddit
The UK is unique in not having tariffs on Chinese EVs. The EU does apply tariffs so Chinese EVs tend to be a bit more expensive and hence rare
That said, those tariffs largely just make them the same cost as one of VW's EVs, and Chinese EVs have the same or better range and substantially better interiors -- not least because Chinese infotainment (and car-control) systems are competently designed and implemented.
miscfiles@reddit
That's interesting. Thanks for the info.
Having struggled with the app that came with my Xiaomi fitness band, I've been a bit wary of Chinese software. But it sounds like they're taking things rather more seriously when it comes to car software.
I'm not in the market for a new car at the moment but if I were I definitely wouldn't rule out a Chinese one.
budgefrankly@reddit
A lot of them are just wrapping Android Auto.
miscfiles@reddit
That's how it should be as far as I'm concerned. I've never used a manufacturer-designed infotainment system that's been anywhere near as good as Android Auto.
FlamingoImpressive92@reddit
Ssangyong is south Korean
pdp10@reddit
I suspect safety, legal, and liability impacts from allowing this.
kljaja998@reddit
Ssangyong is not Chinese...
sioux612@reddit
Nope, I meant it more along the lines of "south Korean car company that isn't hyundai/Kia is also a solid brand"
Because usually when somebody posts that one of the next comments that comes is something along the lines of "there's only those two brands and they barely count because...."
bikedork5000@reddit
I'm a guitar player, and the exact same thing happened with guitars. Mid 70s the Japanese companies hit their stride and started making stuff that was at least close in quality to US companies. But they were copies. So then you had lawsuits. Then the US companies got smart and hired the Japanese ones to build their budget lines. 80s MIJ Fenders are fantastic guitars and command high prices these days, but were scoffed at back then. By the 90s they were respected, but by then it was Korean guitars that were the budget lines. Rinse and repeat. Currently it's Indonesian built stuff that has the bad rap.
Total-Composer2261@reddit
Mexican Strat here, FTW!
miscfiles@reddit
I'm hearing good things about the Harley Bentons that are mainly built in China and Indonesia. They get a lot of shit from the purists, but a load of people are saying how much better built they are than the prices would lead you to believe. Also Chibsons...
HurricaneCat5@reddit
Korean cars are still trash
colegaperu@reddit
Ford sells a a gas SUV in some regions called “TERRITORY” , that is 100% made in China and is pretty good and well priced
JipsyMcNuggets@reddit
you were correct up until you said the new chinese ford was made well. that territory has a ford cvt in it mang nothing about that good. and a untested 1.5 liter? no sorry the one from the crappy fusions and eco sports. not the 1.6, the 1.5. AND YOU PUT THAT IN AN SUV? dude guys. just cause it’s made in another country does not make it any good. it’s a chinese made eco sport with a cvt, that’s more like a unbranded mitsubishi
colegaperu@reddit
Sorry, I meant to say pretty good “looking”. You are correct, it has a 1.5L with a turbo and it’s huge (that’s probably not a good idea). They are everywhere because of the price and FORD prestige, although most people don’t know where it’s made (I have asked owners). Personally, I wouldn’t buy a Chinese car just yet.
Ran4@reddit
People here still shit on Korean cars.
Some Hyundais are rock solid, but you'll never hear it here.
Mamafritas@reddit
The main knock on Hyundai/Kia seems to be the dealer network and customer support is pretty hit or miss. Cars themselves aren't abnormally worse than others but the customer experience when something goes wrong is a pain point compared to other brands.
TempleSquare@reddit
Some of it well earned: Engines that grenade themselves. Removing immobilizer chips.
sprchrgddc5@reddit
I bought a Kona N. In my research, the Korean made Hyundais have a reputation for reliability in places like Europe (Germany particularly) and Australia/NZ. It’s the Alabama-made Hyundais, which are usually the lower trimmed ones, that had huge reliability issues and tbh Hyundai did that onto themselves coupled with the KIA boys scandal.
jawknee530i@reddit
We just picked up a '25 Soul for my wife and she was pulling her hair out going crazy over the mountains of uninformed people trying to explain to her how unreliable kias are.
Philo_T_Farnsworth@reddit
I have a 2015 Genesis Sedan with about 140,000 miles and ten years in it still has the nicest interior of any car I've ever owned. There is not a squeak or rattle to be found. It is one of the most mechanically reliable cars I've ever owned. Nothing but regular oil changes. The Tau V-8 is a beast of an engine. All of the electrics work. Nothing is broken.
It's a ten year old Hyundai and it looks and drives like it's brand new.
BannytheBoss@reddit
Korean cars kind of suck and it was really only Toyota followed by Honda that bettered American cars back in the early 90's. The lack of availability and high prices of Japanese cars helped to fuel the rumor that they were all reliable but it was really just those two brands while the others always scored equal to US made cars (Per Consumer Reports).
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
Verdict is still out on Korean cars being any good. I say this as a Kia owner who has received one too many service bulletins in the mail.
I mean occasionally Kia/Hyundai will make a good engine (Beta, Lambda, Tau) but it’s kind of like how Volkswagen occasionally makes a good engine (2.5)… “even a blind squirrel finds nuts once in a while”
Several-Associate407@reddit
You think people learn?!
Have you looked outside lately?
Recoil42@reddit
Red scare amped things up a bit in the zeitgeist, most of the west has been marinating in its own propaganda for too long.
SomeJayForToday@reddit
McCartheyism caused an international group-psychosis that never truely left.
candylandmine@reddit
It started long before. McCarthy, it's been going on since 1905.
altacan@reddit
Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882
uniyk@reddit
Fu Manchu has nothing to do with communism or geopolitics, neither did Yellow Peril.
Recoil42@reddit
At their root, all of these things are xenophobia, simply different kids of xenophobia.
greybruce1980@reddit
Speaking at a global scale, gigantic pickup trucks and SUV's have a pretty small demographic, and that is what American companies mostly seem to make. If you want to compete, have the right products.
ycnz@reddit
Sure, the hallmark of the American people is 100% their ability to learn.
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ilikeCRUNCHYturtles@reddit
The average redditor has been consuming a lifetime's worth of sinophobic propaganda while also internalizing the scary fact that they are out performing us as a country in many ways, while also holding the false belief that all that is possible because of "slave labor."
Pretend-Rock8293@reddit
Go listen to any podcast with an OEM executive and while it's not slavery, it's not working standards any Western nation would accept.
"Burning the midnight oil" is sometimes considered an understatement China. The threat to any U.S. manufacuring, not just automotive, is real.
threeinacorner@reddit
Can't put it any better myself. The funny thing is a lot of people in the auto industry have no problem admitting this. Neither does the a significant portion of the wider public. Some enthusiasts, meanwhile, hold this China=shit belief the hardest.
It just reminds be of that one normal curve meme lol
AmazonPuncher@reddit
The r/tools sub is the worst I've seen. Bunch of uneducated hillbillys over there. It is crazy to me that people really believe the worlds largest manufacturing center isnt good at manufacturing. I dont know if its pure ignorance or some kind of american cope.
Impressive-Potato@reddit
It's the best way to sneak things past Americans. Just leave everything in plane site. American exceptionalism goggles won't allow them to see anyone else doing well until it's too late. Check out the dialogue going around after the Olympics. Japan won the most gold medals in wrestling, men and women. Instead of acknowledging how good Japan's performance was and always is in wrestling, it was all about "what happened to the American wrestlers???"
threeinacorner@reddit
Lol yeah I'm in the EV industry and the attitude me and my colleagues have can basically be summed up like this:
When we found out a shit charger was made in China:
"ah yep that's Chinese alright"
and when we found out an awesome drive unit was made in China:
"ah yep that's Chinese alright"
Saitoh17@reddit
China makes fake iphones. They also make the real iphone.
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
The quality they make is whatever you paid for.
Dachshand@reddit
Especially if they’re exploiting workers and the communist party is hugely subsidising the industry.
beardedbast3rd@reddit
I was straight up laughed at for suggesting chinas ev success.
They have mandated ev adoption, and have good manufacturing. And best of all for them, they have government heavily pushing and subsidizing that entire industry.
Now everyone else is playing catch up, and China is doing the same thing with renewable energy.
What do we do when we can’t blame China for global warming anymore? Move on to other countries as big bad guys and further suppress renewable adoption in our own countries I guess.
LeoThePom@reddit
China won't stop polluting, don't worry.
Simon_787@reddit
Chinas leadership in clean technologies has reduced emissions for a bunch of countries, not just themselves.
animerobin@reddit
I went to China recently and rode in some of these cars. Modern electric Chinese cars are cool as hell, and the nicer newest ones are exactly the same quality as the cars we buy here, if not better. I desperately want to be able to buy some of their electric minivans.
Recoil42@reddit
They're sick. I was in China last year, the Zeekr 009 and Li L9 are really something.
Available_Win5204@reddit
A round of applause for this sub, which rails on and on about not supporting America's, and the worlds top EV and one of the top technology companies, because the CEO hurt their feelings, while applauding posts like this which gobble the dick of the CHINESE AUTO INDUSTRY as if that's a better regime to support. Get fucked.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
At first I wanted to be annoyed but it just what it is. American manufacturing has done itself a disservice by dismissing Chinese manufacturing. There’s valid criticisms to be made about their industry but that doesn’t mean you don’t take a clear eyed look at it.
TerrainRecords@reddit
As a Chinese person, I would like to suggest one thing people attributed the Mega's poor performance on:
It looks like a coffin from the back. Yikes.
CatHistorical184@reddit
Like seriously, these posts bring out the worst of both sides.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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p-ist-a@reddit
+1 Social Credit from Democratic Republic of China
LiGuangMing1981@reddit
There is no Democratic Republic of China (it's the People's Republic of China) nor is there any social credit system as westerners like to think of it.
It's hilarious watching people shit on China constantly when it's clear they don't know the first thing about the place.
CaptSlow49@reddit
+2 Social Credit for your obedience to the People’s Republic of China. You make your dictator proud.
atlazn9@reddit
+2 Palantir Points for your continued efforts online to dispel evil foreign misinformation. You make your king proud.
CaptSlow49@reddit
Hell yeah!
Lmao I love this response.
techtimee@reddit
This is peak comedy hahaha
Robot9004@reddit
Damn bro, you racking up alotta pp's today
CaptSlow49@reddit
Yeah people didn’t find it funny lol
AltruisticMobile4606@reddit
Don’t ask about the Uygher concentration camps though 🤭
p-ist-a@reddit
+2 Social Credit from People's Republic of China
atlazn9@reddit
+2 Palantir Points from the Pentagon
cookingboy@reddit
Honestly, the Chinese leadership must be fucking thrilled that so many westerners like you have such a dismissive and condescending attitude toward them.
There is an entire section in Art of War talking about getting your opponents to underestimate you and that you should stay low, hide your strength and bid your time.
The cognitive dissonance we are seeing right now is just the beginning.
tastesinteresting@reddit
Funny, there's also a section in art of war where it says you should try to appear strong when you are weak, which is actually what china resorts to.
By paying influencers to travel there and parrot the same damn shit everytime, in hopes of having people believe they're 'living in the future' 😂
By announcing cars that are supposedly innovative but never releasing them anywhere outside china, while pushing propaganda on how they're so ahead 🤦
By having a very flattering test cycle so that they can claim cars do 800km in a charge when in reality they barely do 500km..
The list goes on
tablepennywad@reddit
Its more like reddit kharma. Some might care? But ultimately meaningless. Americans dont need to be surveillanced anymore because they just upload everything on facegram anyways.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
It’s embarrassing yet also hilarious how much Ford’s CEOs dislike their own company that they OWN AND RUN.
Jim Farley seen here is constantly glazing Chinese EV’s and looooovesss talking about and driving his Xiaomi SU7.
Alan Mulally, former CEO of the company, drove a Lexus for years and when asked said he would drive a Ford once they “caught up”
Pretend-Rock8293@reddit
Your post comes off very tribal. The man is just humbled and stating the reality of things. This should be inspiring for everyone to try and be better.
skepticaljesus@reddit
It's worthwhile to "eat your own dogfood" and drive a car of the company you're CEO of just for sake of doing so.
Having said that, if you're trying to buy a car you would actually want to drive, it's obvious to me what car in ford's lineup an executive like that would even want. I guess a Lincoln, but those are so big if you dont have a family of 6 it probably doens't make a ton of sense.
steelers3814@reddit
IMO, this is the right attitude. Always push your own company to be better.
Much better than GM and Chrysler executives believing that they are the smartest people in the world as they parade toward irrelevancy.
Titan0917@reddit
What? GM is actually ahead of Ford when it comes to EVs and they’ve been doing very well with their EV lineup.
Drzhivago138@reddit
If I have a kid who doesn't get good grades, and I say that there are other kids who get better grades, that doesn't mean I'm saying I dislike my own kid.
AccountantDirect9470@reddit
It does say you dislike your own kid if you don’t put the effort and investment to tutor them to get better grades. Meanwhile you just shuttle them to school every day as a routine, and each time you bring up how much better the other students are.
AmazonPuncher@reddit
This is one of those points of view you would only ever hear on reddit. People on here are just ridiculous. Its like a different universe.
jesusrambo@reddit
r/suspiciouslyspecific
AccountantDirect9470@reddit
“You don’t know me!” Cries in report card.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Farley has objectively been trying to invest and catch up.
It's hard when China invests in research while America collectively shoves its thumbs up its ass and screams about how science is 'woke' or some shit. Cuts research funding, incentives to put RnD into products, etc.
Then we're all agog when China outpaces us. Elections have consequences. The most recent election has, at the very least, cemented the US's decline.
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StrangeSmellz@reddit
You can thank the auto unions where any changes needs a committee and bargaining
AccountantDirect9470@reddit
Unions are great… until they are not. I am all for unions, but protecting terrible employees and not reflecting on market conditions can be bad when not negotiating can be bad.
But China have very few worker’s rights is also not the answer either.
5tudent_Loans@reddit
Its more like taking your neighbors kid out to get icecream every week because they got good grades, while telling your own kid they dont need to change one bit
Logitech4873@reddit
If you take those other kids to the theme park instead though...
DrMonkeyLove@reddit
Maybe Timmy should have tried harder! Isn't that right Timmy?!
adenosine-5@reddit
But then why would other people choose your kid, if even you yourself won't?
Viperlite@reddit
For someone so enthralled by EVs, he sure was quick to exit the EV market, just like Ford retreated from the car market. What’s next? Do they want to innovate the car market by becoming a real estate firm?
mangosteenfruit@reddit
Ford should be out of business already. Notice how police cars and SUVs are Ford. They don't care. They're getting government money.
Shitboxfan69@reddit
Their trucks is what keeps them afloat too.
F150 sells a shit ton and not even just government contracts. When you go up to bigger trucks, there's a lot of bare frames being bought, and right now they're the best quality trucks.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
Are they though?
My Ranger has been better than either of my Chevys, but I am less and less impressed.
My wife and I bought our vehicles within a month or two of each other. Mine is a 19 ranger her's is a 20 Forester. We have the same mileage, just a bit over 80k. Both have received scheduled maintenance at the dealer. Both are not garaged.
Mine has had a grinding noise while shifting gears for 30k miles that the Ford dealer can replicate, but not fix. So much for having an extended warranty. My shift boot has cracked in multiple places. The arm rest cover broke once under warranty and is now splitting at the corners. The driver's seat foam is breaking down. The window trim rubber is quite noticeably breaking down. The car has developed multiple rattles.
Her car? Has some rattles. Nothing is tearing. Nothing show signs of breaking down from just age. It is holding up quite well and makes my Ford look much older despite the same mileage.
Shitboxfan69@reddit
I'm really speaking in terms of fleets 3/4 ton and above. Drive train reliability is really where they shine there, and being in the fleet service industry, there's a lot of people going Ford. I've even heard long time die hard Chevrolet guys going to ford because Chevy has been having issues.
woowoo293@reddit
My family is also a Ford/Subaru household. There are some things the Escape does better, and others the Outback does better. The Outback handles much better (being the last affordable "wagon-ish" vehicle in the US) and I assume its reliability will be stellar. But everything related to climate control (AC/heating/heated seats) the Ford is way better. And the touchscreen in the Outback is pretty sucky. For overall comfort, we prefer the Escape.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
I would agree in terms of features. Eyesight is crap compared to my ranger's lane assist. The seats in my ranger are far far more comfortable. The interior on the ranger is, crap. Cheap materials. Far more dated looking. The forester despite being 10k cheaper looks and feels way more expensive.
The big thing is that in terms of condition the Ranger isn't holding up. Would be fine if it were a cheap vehicle, but a new equivalent is 45k+ on a truck I got for 32.5k 5 years ago. Everyone's vehicles got more expensive. I will pay it, but I will hold onto the vehicle longer. I expect it to last 10+ years. I expect this Ranger to be like my 98 ranger and 97 Dakota. Sure, they ran, but they will beater trucks that were falling apart. Next round of trucks I will look at Nissan (if they still exist) and Toyota. I won't be looking at throwing 50k (I imagine they will get more expensive in a few years) at Ford based on the performance with this truck.
woowoo293@reddit
Both of our cars will end up being relatively low mileage so I won't have a great handle on reliability unless something major breaks.
But I generally agree about the interior. I paid up for a premium interior in the ford. It's perfectly fine but is clearly inferior to what some other makes are doing. And there are some very obviously cheap elements.
If you're interested in a more barebones, functional small pick-up down the road, consider the Slate.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
An ev is completely useless to me. I drive my Ranger 235 miles each way each weekend to work on my new home. Occasionally I have to tow a load that distance as well. If it weren't for that my mileage would be very low as I wfh.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
If they weren’t swimming in money they’d have gone under from their many bad decisions. They’ve killed off so many well selling profitable cars in the past decade
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
This makes no sense. It sounds like they're making exactly the correct decisions if they're swimming in money.
Sure, but just because a car is profitable that doesn't mean focusing on a more profitable effort wouldn't be wiser.
Ford nixed their lowest margin lines and put RnD into EV's. As a long-term strategy, this is a good thing.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
Your comment makes no sense. They made stupid money off those models that they sold and then decided to discontinue all of them despite still being profitable.
If they didn’t have that much money that would’ve been a terrible idea. You can’t just discontinue the products that make you rich and expect to not lose money.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Which products did they discontinue that were making them rich? Because it wasn't the fiesta, focus, fusion, or taurus. Those were low-margin items and moved at lower volumes.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
The Focus, Edge, and Fusion. You could argue the Taurus too.
I wouldn’t call the Focus or Fusion low volume items at all. In their last year the Fusion sold nearly 300,000 units. People fucking loved the last gen Fusion. The the Focus sold over 100,000 units. Not bad. The Edge also sold over 100,000 units in 2023 and marked a major increase from the previous year.
Taurus only sold about 60,000 although less than half was from the public, the rest were police cars, but government money is the best kind of money.
None of these should’ve been discontinued. Especially the Fusion, which was a big hit. Ford just loves to discontinue anything that doesn’t live quite up to what their stupid shareholders want.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
CUVs/SUVs sell better or as good and have higher profit margins.
That's why Ford dumped them. They're making more money as a result. The F150 generates ~90% of Ford's global profits for example.
So no, it didn't cost them tons of money to discontinue vehicle lines that barely generated profit.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
It’s possible to make more SUVs and keep selling those to make more money. It’s not one or the other.
And that’s just a bad argument lol. They discontinue shit for the sake of discontinuing shit. They only sell 75,000 Expeditions in 2023 and again 75,000 in 2024. There is no way in hell 75,000 Expeditions yields just as much or more profit than nearly 300,000 Fusions.
They sold just over 100,000 Broncos in 2023. Exactly like the Focus and Edge.
Their current lineup sells about as much as the cars they discontinued did. How many more cars are they going to discontinue because of “underwhelming sales”? When their sales are massive?
bakedvoltage@reddit
no bro you don’t understand, Ford should have kept selling the Taurus for 37 years. That definitely would have made them money.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
Thats not what I was trying to say.
varezhka11@reddit
Being able to respect your competitors and see where they may be better than you is a quality you’d want in your leaders. Have you seen Akio Toyoda? You always hear him talking about Mazda’s development process as something they need to emulate, or congratulate Hyundai’s racing team on their historic wins, or wanting a Porsche for his next car.
That’s something you’ll never see from Nissan. Everyone there act like there’s only one car company in the world, Nissan. Which is probably why they are where they are now.
737northfield@reddit
Alan Mulally was a fucking G don’t slander my man.
steelers3814@reddit
I just finished reading American Icon, the book about Mulally's time at Ford. I've got to recommend it to anyone and everyone. Mulally is totally a fucking G.
737northfield@reddit
Read the same book! It's crazy that there's a chapter about Jim Farley in there too, book came out long before he was CEO.
JacksterTO@reddit
So you are saying it's better for a person running a company to be delusional about what is going on in the market they compete in? Get real! I rather a CEO acknowledge someone else is doing a better job and then take steps to compete.
earoar@reddit
Is telling the truth glazing now?
jeepfail@reddit
Farley loves Ford and wants them to do better and is willing to realize they aren’t there. This is what’s needed instead of pretending you are the best as you fall behind.
coffeesippingbastard@reddit
This is peak participation trophy mindset.
bonestamp@reddit
I assume he got fired when the next cycle of cars didn't catch up under his amazing leadership?
Flys_Lo@reddit
He was the strongest leader Ford has seen in a long time. He made that quote prior to joining Ford.
He navigated Ford successfully through the GFC without taking a bailout (Which kept the Ford family retaining their voting rights) via navigating sales of Jaguar/Land Rover, Mazda etc. at key moments. He also massively streamlined their operations through his "OneFord" strategy, shutting down brands/products that had lost their relevance, and injected those savings in R&D, creating the EcoBoost engine line, bringing Powerstroke engine development in house. He reinvigorated names like Explorer, Taurus etc. He brought Jim Farley into the business (from Toyota no less!) He left of his own voilition, and his successor had some troubled times... who was replaced by Jim Farley.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
He was overall beneficial to the company most believe since he got them through the recession. His choice to leave was because he wanted to “explore other opportunities” and peacefully stepped down.
So surprisingly, no.
cookingboy@reddit
I think being honest and acknowledge your weakness and competitors’ strength is just a healthy attitude to have as a leader.
Like I grew up with Asian parents. My parents constantly told me how overachieving all the other kids are, not to “glaze” them, but to motivate me.
It doesn’t mean my parents wanted to disown me and adopt other kids.
Windows-XP-Home-NEW@reddit
You have a good point. It does make them feel a lot more humble and human than other CEOs. Especially the ones who never admit their mistakes.
But at the same time, you usually want to make products that you are proud of when you run a company. It seems those two didn’t care about doing that and just accepted that they’re not as good as the competition. And accepting defeat is never good when you’re trying to compete with other brands. Although I use accepting defeat lightly since they make and sell a shit ton of cars.
But t the same time at the same time, if they weren’t as big as they are now their business decisions probably would’ve killed them despite selling so well. Massive over investment into EVs comes to mind. Also, killing off all your highly successful small and midsize cars and the Edge for some insane reason is a batshit insane decision,
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
If that were the case, the Maverick/Focus RS/F150/Mustang/GTD/GT/etc. wouldn't have received the investment they did.
Farley is just pointing out that Chinese companies and Chinese policy have a harmonious relationship that has resulted in a situation where they far outpace our current capabilities.
Policy has a huge impact here. The joint venture requirements, incentives for research and development, etc. are what led to this.
Meanwhile the US is slamming on the brakes and whining about being behind without a shred of irony.
Puffycatkibble@reddit
Maybe he just loves cars.
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Winatop@reddit
Is it still Chinese exceptionalism since they use sub par labor practices to achieve it? Shun out gay culture? Also downright refuse to admit trans existence? I see plenty talk about this but if the US is was to do the same the backlash would be out of this world. To much double standards going both ways.
PwB92@reddit
You’re overcomplicating the issue. The reason you feel that the outside world is more tolerant of certain actions by China is because you’ve already assumed in your mind that what’s happening in China is inherently bad—or at least controversial.
Winatop@reddit
No. I enjoy China. I’m just wondering why it gets a pass for exceptionalism when it uses sub par practices across the board. Child labor and slave labor are most definitely sub standard practices what would you considered “inherently bad”?? Reddit gives it a pass. It’s weird. Imagine if the US used slave labor.
PwB92@reddit
I understand your perspective. But I believe any meaningful discussion must start from a shared premise: these issues exist and are not isolated incidents. For example, regarding child labor and forced labor, I want to clarify that in present-day China, forced labor has largely been eliminated, and the current compulsory education system has significantly reduced the possibility of employing child labor. No country is completely free of moral issues, and problems like child or forced labor have historically been common in countries experiencing rapid industrialization—both in the past and in the present. Acknowledging historical development doesn’t mean condoning or excusing such issues, but it does allow for a more informed understanding.
If we’re talking about problems that genuinely still exist—like LGBTQ issues—I’d like to offer a comparison from the automotive world. For instance, if a Chinese person modifies their car exhaust to make it louder, they’ll likely be taken in by the police fairly quickly. The Chinese government consistently takes the approach of eliminating “every bad thing.” If something is deemed harmful to the majority or obstructive to societal development, it’s restricted or banned. I live in mainland China, and I personally support this approach. But I also believe that the divergence in our beliefs about “what ought to be done” is significant. Recognizing and understanding others’ methods or standards is not the same as applying a double standard.
When a Chinese person calls for the death penalty for weed dealers and a crackdown on sex workers, they might be fully aware of how such things are handled in the US, but still not care at all. That isn’t a double standard, it’s just a different worldview.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
They think China has a red flag so it must be a glorious utopia
Winatop@reddit
Not to sure what you mean? China cuts every corner in the book. It completely hides all of its issues. Completely locks the media and internet so that it can regulate any negative media. Constantly lies about its tech and capabilities. It somehow gets a pass on Reddit every time. If the United States did this the world would revolt.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
Yeah… that’s my point, if the U.S. did the stuff China did Reddit would never stop talking about it, but because China claims to be communist they a lot of Redditor’s think it’s some glorious egalitarian utopia
Winatop@reddit
Oh not a doubt. Reddit has gone to absolute shit. As long as you aren’t the United States you can get away with anything in Reddits views. It’s wild.
RdmdAnimation@reddit
maybe if american car companies, and buyers, were more focused in electric vehicles they wouldnt be so far behind
I remenber allways seeing in the internet americans saying how "evs are boring/lame..." or that "it doesnt feel the same as having a V8" or that "car enthusiasts dont go for evs.."and just disliking everything electric car related, so off course american companies are behind
RandomGenName1234@reddit
I want muh v8 modurr!
As they get into their 2.4 liter i4 SUV
Vhozite@reddit
Not sure why you were downvoted because this is exactly my experience IRL and online. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard some variation of “they should make this” or “they don’t make em like they used to” just for this same person to hop in the exact opposite vehicle of what they’re describing.
SacredWinner442@reddit
because people cant afford them.
Amaxter@reddit
“but it’s so much easier to get in the doors with the raised ride height”
RandomGenName1234@reddit
This sub can't take a joke, it's deeply reactionary.
yetiflask@reddit
TESLA is an Amercain company and literally paved the way for EVs. Even now it's almost as good as the Chinese companies. Rivian, which sit at selling cars, is actually very good technologically.
No not sure wtf you're talking about.
America literally started the EV craze, both in sales and technology.
Chinese upped their game, and power to them. Now they're the leaders. I hope Tesla and Rivian can up their game, competition is good.
Dempseylicious23@reddit
As an American my only concern with owning an EV is that winters can bring temps of -40 degrees for up to 5 days straight.
Couple winters ago, a BUNCH of EVs were being stranded at charging stations because it was too cold for the charging stations to function. People literally abandoned their cars at the chargers and had to leave them there until the temp came back up.
https://www.autopromotec.com/en/Tesla-vs-the-big-cold-in-Chicago-it-s-a-0-1-all-square/a935#:~:text=In%20the%20heart%20of%20Chicago,degrees%20Celsius%20in%20some%20cases.
This is in Chicago, so not even that far north. There are plenty of places here where people live that get colder than this more consistently.
As it stands, EVs themselves and the infrastructure available are not sufficient for extended winter usage in many places in the US, so you need a gas car anyway (USA being extremely car centric), and it’s becoming increasingly rarer to be able to financially justify having an N+1 car situation.
CactusJ@reddit
FYI. It is also very cold in regions of China. Just like the US
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Are those regions where people actually live, though?
There are around 39 million people living in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, and the Dakotas.
Most of China lives near the coast in the far eastern and southern part of the country, where it's milder.
CactusJ@reddit
Heilongjiang Province
ummary: Harbin is colder and drier than Chicago in winter, with longer, harsher cold seasons. Summers are warm but shorter than in Chicago.
CommentHefty4886@reddit
Yes??? Beijing and its surrounding province has true winters and has 70+ million people. Changchun has an average January high of 13F with 10 million people.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Beijing's climate is similar to Indianapolis, and about 5 degrees warmer than Chicago, and 10 degrees warmer than Minneapolis.
CommentHefty4886@reddit
My guy YOU cited Illinois and Nebraska. Places even warmer than Indianapolis.
You literally didn’t know if people lived in cold places in China. You don’t get to not even know where people live in China then try to dispute the people telling you the information.
You also ignored Changchun which is 10 degrees colder than Minneapolis with 20x the population and double the state population.
CommentHefty4886@reddit
My guy YOU cited Illinois and Nebraska.
You literally didn’t know if people lived in cold places in China. Kindly sit your ignorant uneducated as down and stop embarrassing yourself. You don’t get to not even know where people live in China then try to dispute the people telling you the information.
You also ignored Changchun which is colder 10 degrees colder than Minneapolis with 20x the population. LMFAO
verdegrrl@reddit
No personal attacks. Thanks.
animerobin@reddit
If anything China is on average much colder than than the US.
Amaxter@reddit
One of the major adopters of EV is Norway, a country that gets even colder than the Midwest. The Tesla Supercharger/Chicago story you’re referencing is an anomaly and points to lackluster infrastructure. Current battery tech, imperfect as it is, can already handle very cold infrastructure provided you have some kind of place to charge overnight and keep the cells from freezing. Until we build out more level 2 charging, encourage it in multiunit dwellings, etc. we’ll continue to have these anomalies. Our geography is challenging because we’re also much more spread out than Europe so we need more stations to cover the density gap.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
The only portion of Norway that's on par with the Midwest is the far northern reaches. Minneapolis is colder than Tromsø, and Fargo is colder than Svalbard.
Amaxter@reddit
EVs have also seen success in Canada. The while they don’t work in the cold thing is years old FUD.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
50% of Canada lives further south than Minneapolis.
CookieMonsterFL@reddit
That issue was due to Supercharger stations in the Chicago area breaking down - not necessarily due to EVs themselves unable to function in cold weather.
I do agree that it is unknown the long term effects/results of battery degradation, something that is still concerning for someone like me looking to move to EVs in the next 5 years.
Dempseylicious23@reddit
But we all know that battery tech performs poorly in cold weather. It’s not like that’s any surprise. The range on EVs absolutely tanks when it’s cold out.
So couple that with charging stations that can simply cease to function in the cold and you can’t really make the proper use case for it yet if you absolutely need something reliable.
xarune@reddit
New battery techs are sodium ion are less energy dense but perform way better in cold temps. You lose summer range in exchange for winter range. It also doesn't require as difficult mining as lithium because it's basically salt based.
Is this a worthwhile trade and does the tech work? hard to say now. Battery tech is full of successes and failures. But the mega battery companies in China are researching, expanding, and productionizing these technologies and we are not. This ultimately leaves the US even further behind.
Amaxter@reddit
It’s very variable. You should lookup a group called Recurrent’s studies on used EV battery performance in the cold—there’s huge deltas depending on the exact cell used in the vehicle and other system constraints like having a heatpump, etc. Some EVs only lose ~10% of their range, some can actually be as bad as 40%. With better battery tech it will only improve :)
matthewmspace@reddit
So maybe just copy them? Like, you’re Ford. You’re not an upstart like Rivian, Tesla, etc, you’re fucking Ford!
DaBombDiggidy@reddit
Can’t really copy paying your workers 2 dollars an hour and IP thefting your tech. It’s very hard to compete when your costs are astronomically higher to do the same process.
Threedawg@reddit
This is it, this is the issue.
We have unions, and unions have labor demands to make their workers good, living wages.
A living wage in China is way, way, way lower. We cant compete with that. When our housing costs are astronomical and billionaires are sucking up the extra profits we will never be able to compete.
speedypotatoo@reddit
China's labor cost is 6x that of the Mexican workers Ford uses
Threedawg@reddit
Best I could find was about 558 USD a month for China and about 500-600/month for workers at mexican factories.
Unless you have a better source, it sounds like they are comparable. However, that is nothing compared to an autoworker in the states.
speedypotatoo@reddit
Entry level Chinese Auto workers are at least 5-10k cny a month which is about 1-2k a month. Thats already much more that the numbers you posted
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ding_dong_dasher@reddit
Labor costs are at most, 10-15% of the sticker price of a UAW produced vehicle, and we're looking at a much bigger problem than US vehicles being 10% more expensive for the same quality output.
Maybe you could make an argument that the Union contracts constraint what kinds of tech-driven efficiencies can be utilized - but ultimately auto manufacturing is overwhelmingly a capital-investment driven exercise.
The Chinese are fucking good at manufacturing because they've invested in modern high-tech facilities that allow them to make better products cheaper, line-labor is really a side-show in the whole thing.
alexp8771@reddit
Their good at manufacturing because they don't have unions that bitch when you automate away their jobs.
CatHistorical184@reddit
2 things. The ancillary fringe costs of union is as much as 90% of the salary. MSRP has also been inflated since the pandemic which just screws with the ratio.
Threedawg@reddit
I have a close friend that does plant operations for Ford (specifically IT). They needed to run three ethernet cables on the floor of the factory, the quote from a union electrician (which they must use) was $4,000. Four of five years ago it would barely be half that.
I want to be clear, I am in no way blaming the union, they need to make living wages. However that is fucking insane. Unless we get prices and COL under control in this country our manufacturing is cooked.
ding_dong_dasher@reddit
That's actually a good example of what I worry about - it's not like that cost on its own is the issue, it's the procedural friction.
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Overlord1317@reddit
Wow, I finally found someone in this thread with a fucking clue.
China steals technology at a government-sized level, pays its workers slave wages, has no environmental protections, and subsidizes industries to the point that they are just parts of the state.
These threads completely miss the forest for the trees.
speedypotatoo@reddit
What battery tech has China stolen, they're the ones leading the way in battery tech. Their labor also costs 6x that if the Mexican labor American manufacturers use
Dick_Nixon69@reddit
Fords Louisville plant employees 3,078 hourly employees with an average pay of $23.34/hr which comes out to $48,547 a year, making their annual labor cost $149.4m. That plant produced 133,320 escapes and 27,513 corsairs at an average of $32k and $45k respectively which is $5.15b in 2024. This means the hourly labor pay accounted for just 2.9% of the cars msrp. If ford paid those employees $2/hr it would bring the price of the escape down a whole $850.
The advantages china has is with it's streamlined manufacturing process from years of being the worlds supplier of this tech in other electronics, and it's government incentivizing this tech, as it's in line economically with the countries energy recourses.
Hobo_Robot@reddit
That's not the right way to think about China's labor costs advantage. 90% of Ford's components are made by suppliers. Those suppliers also have to pay their factory workers. Those suppliers also have suppliers, etc etc. There's also the labor costs of truck drivers moving components to Ford's plant, and labor costs of white collar employees at Ford, their suppliers, the trucking companies, etc.
Labor costs are lower across the board in China, with entry level factory workers making \~$3/hr. Low costs is a virtuous cycle, because despite making $3/hr these workers can still afford the necessities of life because everything is so cheap and save >50% of their paycheck.
I'd say the difference in labor rates across the economy contributes about 50% of the cost difference between China and the west. The other 50% is efficiency from automation and tight supply chains, non-acceptance of rent-seeking behavior in the economy, and their cultural attitude towards work itself.
Rent-seeking is the national sport in the US and a big fat dead weight loss in the economy that never gets mentioned.
Most people in the west punch in punch out to collect a paycheck and couldn't give a rat's ass about their work. Workers in China care about doing a good job, they work to provide a better life for their children, their parents.
CatHistorical184@reddit
You are ignoring the ancillary costs of unions. The benefits provided can easily exceed 1.5x the wage cost alone.
Dick_Nixon69@reddit
1.5x the wage cost comes to $35.01/hr which increases that 2.9% to 4.36%, so if you change the price of the escape to represent cutting labor cost from $35 to $2 an hour they would save $1.3k per car. $30.7k instead of $32k. I think they need to find a bit more savings beyond slave labor still.
sloping_wagon@reddit
Chinese workers make more than the European average worker. What cheap labor ?
pentaquine@reddit
Maybe the US companies could pay some taxes to build some social safety nets so that they don't have to put that much into retirement accounts and still not be able to afford a good retirement?
Lighthouse_seek@reddit
If you actually think China's ev advantage comes from cheap labor and ip theft you have the exact wrong idea behind why their advantage exists.
EnesEffUU@reddit
Americans have genuinely deluded themselves into thinking countries like China are incapable of innovating and actually producing groundbreaking tech and manufacturing processes. The people that say "yeah their great, but it's just because of IP theft and cheap labour" are on the same American exceptionalist train of thought as those that dismiss china altogether.
This attitude is why USA will continue to fail, and it is becoming increasingly likely USA will simply continue to increase their military to forcefully protect their global position through violence as they simply can't compete. They continue to gut and underfund their public education, increasingly disregard the needs of the 99% and shift those funds to military spending. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, USA will not let their empire die without invading, bombing, and engaging in war to forcefully try to protect their empire as it crumbles from the inside. And the American people will support it. The process to manufacture consent to go to war against China has already taken root over the last few decades with the mountain of anti-china rhetoric from all sides of the American media. These anti-china attitudes are the fruits of that effort, and it's sucks for the world because the americans likely will start a war with china and the american population is already on board.
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
The issue is China is rapidly advancing in weapons manufacturing too. Aviation subreddit has gone from laughing at Chinese warplanes to its own oh shit moment with the Pakistan-India war and the 6th gen Chinese prototypes.
sohcgt96@reddit
Yeah, the IP theft and cheap labor was maybe true 10-15 years ago but the reality is they've caught up while we were ignoring them and brushing them off.
TempleSquare@reddit
This was true...nearly 20 years ago.
Today it's China being miles ahead of everyone else when it comes to logistics of running an effective factory.
EpicHuggles@reddit
Chinese propaganda shill account detected.
GlossyCylinder@reddit
Speaking the truth doesnt make you. Achinesr propaganda shill.
If you prefer to delude yourself then go ahead, but just realize it won't change reality. It will only make you guys lose harder.
natesully33@reddit
Everyone is paid far less (the number I've seen from searching is around 1/3rd the wages on average) in China. Engineers, middle managers, labor on the line, everyone - the entire cost structure of an automaker in China is just gonna be crazy better than it would be in the US or EU. That applies all the way down the supply chain too of course, so it adds up real fast when you are making something as complex as a car.
If you make a car in Mexico, but pay US wages to the engineering team that designed it and more for parts since your suppliers are doing the same, then that doesn't really help much. It just puts you a bit ahead of other Western automakers.
Not to downplay the battery tech and actual innovation coming out of China, but there are cost advantages companies outside China can't really beat right now. Besides protectionism, the only actual solution is waiting for the standard/cost of living in China to increase.
sprottythotty@reddit
You fell for the propaganda
natesully33@reddit
...No, I understand the basic economics of doing engineering and production at large international companies. Many of the ones I've worked for have a remote engineering office in China for a reason, you can hire talented engineers and managers for less money thanks to those cost/standard of living differences.
There's a lot going on here, and a lot of bad faith information out there trying to make a political point rather than really exploring the economics and policy behind the Chinese auto industry. It's not propaganda that Chinese companies spend less to do absolutely everything a company does though, that gap is narrowing but it's still very much a thing.
DaBombDiggidy@reddit
There’s no point in conversing with someone who refuses to acknowledge that cheap labor leads to lower cogs. No one is saying they don’t have a skilled workforce.
The comparison to Mexico also makes no sense. At what point have they proven they’re capable to spin up tech leading foundries?
Lighthouse_seek@reddit
Tesla literally has a gigafactory in Germany that opened years before the EU even considered tariffs
animerobin@reddit
The workers who build advanced products like electric cars in China are not paid 2 dollars an hour. They are well paid.
The idea that everyone in China is a sweatshop slave is as realistic as thinking everyone in Africa lives in mud huts.
paranome_@reddit
The Chinese manufacturing now are the worlds top producers in autonomous robots for assembly manufacturing. They haven’t been the cheapest labor in the world for a decade now. India, Vietnam, Cambodia, are all cheaper. It’s now the have the entire supply chain fully figured out.
4thAndLong@reddit
The Chinese government heavily subsidizes/invests in the EV sector. This has allowed innovation to flourish there and not just in the automotive sector. They also employ a more talented workforce overall. When I was visited Giga Shanghai I was surprised to learn a lot of the assembly line workers held engineering degrees. They had to "settle" for assembly jobs because of fierce competition. America is lagging in innovation and that's partly because our kids aren't getting the education they need (iPad kids) and we aren't allowing enough outside talent to fill high skill jobs.
speedypotatoo@reddit
You give subsidies to the big 3 and you'll see exec salaries go up and stock buybacks
FtDetrickVirus@reddit (OP)
US federal subsidies built Tesla btw
4thAndLong@reddit
And that’s a good thing. The government should invest in technology advancements. Instead it just cut funding, but continues to pour billions in oil & gas.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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VariationAgreeable29@reddit
We have a nation full of fat lazy children who are coddled and simultaneously ignored. They grow up in front of their iPads, drinking soda and eating processed foods. Their parents don’t make sure they’re doing their homework and the kids have no interest in learning. We started falling behind easily 40 years ago. The fact that the current administration is hell-bent on keeping out immigrants,, even legal ones who are literally the building blocks of the tax sector and all of our fast growing companies, is outrageous and shortsighted.
Available_Win5204@reddit
Oh and what do you do for a living? Because if it’s not engineering you can shut the fuck up and admit you’re part of the problem you’re describing.
VariationAgreeable29@reddit
I don’t have fat lazy kids who won’t meaningfully contribute to society as adults.
xienze@reddit
I'd agree with your point here if our immigration system had a point system that required a certain education level/skillset and financial resources. Instead our policy is basically "anyone and everyone."
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
Factually incorrect. Go and try to apply to immigrate to the US right now as an anyone and tell me how far you get.
pentaquine@reddit
That's not true. We also have Asian kids.
Ivebeentamed@reddit
Who are about to get deported.
Viend@reddit
Don't worry, the gov is working on making sure we lose that benefit too.
JipsyMcNuggets@reddit
preach. after they got away with the bronco sport it was clear americans don’t know what they’re buying anymore
spongebob_meth@reddit
Worse than this. The parents actively don't want their kids learning in school.
StrangeSmellz@reddit
That’s a reach. The mass majority of parents are not telling their kids not to learn lol.
spongebob_meth@reddit
It sure seems like this in certain parts of the country.
WarDEagle@reddit
Yes. This is a straw man.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
SCOTUS just ruled parents can prevent their kids from receiving instruction on subjects that are contrary to their religious beliefs. They’ll stretch that to anything they don’t like.
This country is academically cooked. Truly.
altacan@reddit
Just look at the nightmare posts in r/teachers
spongebob_meth@reddit
Yep, my wife is a teacher. I realize it's not the majority, but these wackos are certainly orders if magnitude more common than they were 20-30 years ago.
Signal_Ball4634@reddit
And you've got bIg bEaUtIfUl bIlLs out here diminishing the innovation and research we do have going for us in tech and medicine. There really is no point deluding ourselves into thinking we're at the cutting edge anymore, at least until people get their heads out of their asses and embrace that we're behind and put effort into catching up.
tclark2006@reddit
Not just tech, construction as well. That 10k roofing job is now going to be 15k and will need to be redone in 5 years due to shoddy work.
BeanJuice89@reddit
Ah yes, another article on Reddit praising China and criticizing the US. So new. So refreshing.
Hunt69Mike@reddit
Building EV’s with no concern for the environment or workers is easy, who would’ve guessed.
sprottythotty@reddit
Brainwashed American
BeanJuice89@reddit
Miserable foreigner
Dachshand@reddit
Isn’t that from an interview many months ago? Yahoo.
TroyFerris13@reddit
"so we are going to continue to make 80k trucks"
aaffpp@reddit
And which are too big for parking spots or garages...
aaffpp@reddit
China is not going away. EV manufacturing will become leaner and they will sell tons to the developing world for public taxis and delivery vehicles, where daily utilization rates are much higher than domestic personal transportation.
Big-Energy-3363@reddit
Of course this administration just killed most EV and wind in favor of renewed coal and oil exploration. Smart people huh?
JumpRecent163@reddit
Is he paid for advertising China's company or what lmao
roadkillfriedrice@reddit
That’s because every company in America operates like apple. Innovate as little as possible, slow progress down, and charge extra for every little innovation you do allow to come down to the consumer
Hobo_Robot@reddit
Extract that economic rent baby. It's what we're best at.
tastesinteresting@reddit
cookingboy blocked me 🤦😄
I guess he figured his authority fallacies were not successful.
A classic example of the dunning-kruger effect, low knowledge on the matter, high confidence on spreading bs. It is what it is, most people do the same.
but one must remember, To err is human, to persist is diabolical.
verdegrrl@reddit
Take your feud elsewhere. Thanks.
juliotendo@reddit
Regardless of the tensions between East and West, this is economics and comparative advantage / competition at play. If the Chinese are making better cars than their American counterparts, the only way to find out is to give them access to the American market.
It's amazing how many cars "made in the USA" are just so poorly made and overpriced for what you get.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Shmokesshweed@reddit
I'd settle for higher quality, less recalls, infotainment that spazzes out and freezes less, etc. The basics.
Recoil42@reddit
The infotainment on Chinese models is mind blowing, honestly. That's easily the craziest part; they dunked on everyone when it comes to IVI.
orhantemerrut@reddit
Is everyone making up personal abbreviations on the fly these days?
jesusrambo@reddit
N, JSP
Recoil42@reddit
"In-car entertainment (ICE), or in-vehicle infotainment (IVI), is a collection of hardware and softw..."
BipedalWurm@reddit
Traditionally, you say the whole thing before you abbreviate. If you use it for the first time in a discussion, then you use the whole thing.
Recoil42@reddit
IVI is literally the industry-standard term. I didn't just make it up.
BipedalWurm@reddit
Stark difference in commonality, the other terms you used to demonstrate your point have become commonplace in everyday verbiage, IVI clearly hasn't
Recoil42@reddit
You've won me over. Next time I make a one-sentence comment on Reddit I'll be sure to poll the crowd.
BipedalWurm@reddit
You should just adhere to long held commonsense practices of the language you are using. You being you, I'd poll the crowd anyway
ArtPeers@reddit
If people did this, it would be so helpful.
alexmojo2@reddit
They really called it ICE? Like there’s not another common car acronym called ICE
orhantemerrut@reddit
Nobody says that. The dude is being an insufferable pedant.
Recoil42@reddit
It's literally the industry standard term, champ.
Capri280@reddit
Yeah, I remember hearing of it called ICE (In-Car Entertainment) years ago. I don't remember ICE for Internal Combustion Engine until the electric vehicle became relevant, but it has since superceded In-Car Entertainment in what I think of seeing ICE. Before that the internal combustion engine was the default, why go around specifying
rugbyj@reddit
I believe we just call that PAOTF here.
WATTHEBALL@reddit
So, yes?
Smash_4dams@reddit
Just call it infotainment like it's been for the past 20yrs.
Of course it's "in-vehicle". Our speedos and maps aren't being shown on a giant screen on your tailgate.
bridgepainter@reddit
As opposed to out-of-vehicle infotainment?
Recoil42@reddit
Sure, yeah. A lot of companies developing this tech also make things like tablets and televisions.
Fro_Zone@reddit
In vehicle infotainment (IVI) refers to the head unit. It’s more of a term used inside OEMs.
p-ist-a@reddit
LOL, you conveniently forgot about one American brand that is light years ahead of everyone else when it comes to infotainment software. Especially compared to Chinese trash.
Recoil42@reddit
I'm not going to have this conversation twice in one day. Here, I'll save us both the time.
p-ist-a@reddit
Embarrassing
Recoil42@reddit
If you say so. Cheers.
bigchilla777@reddit
America bad politics doesn’t make glazing china less pitiful
only reddit would think that’s cool lol
bonestamp@reddit
Google? Apple? QNX?
Benti86@reddit
Problem is that, even if Ford does that, I can easily see them raising their prices almost immediately just to make cars even more unaffordable.
Spirited-Pause@reddit
These constant “Chinese EVs are unstoppable!” circlejerk posts are such obvious astroturfing + karma farming.
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SnikySquirrel@reddit
This sub hates tech heavy oversized EVs except for when the Chinese make them, then suddenly there’s nothing they like more than
Amaxter@reddit
Because China has the scale, knowhow, and IP to make cheaper, lighter, EVs that make sense for their entire country. They’re sacrificing profit and settings their sights on world domination to do it, and they’re not a trade partner. I am one of the last people to glaze China but if you don’t seriously look at them and see the threat your head is in the sand DEEP.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
I’m not doubting their technology, I just wonder why this sub seems so infatuated with them? Is this not a sub for enthusiasts to talk about cars that enthusiasts like?
markeydarkey2@reddit
I mean.. I'm a car enthusiast who finds the car industry in China fascinating, it's a rapidly growing market with a bunch of new entries trying different things.
Car enthusiasm exists in many forms; some people are enthusiastic about driving cars spiritedly, or the engineering of cars, the technology of cars, the styling of cars, etc. China is now the largest auto market, obviously people will want to talk about it.
The49GiantWarriors@reddit
I don't think this sub is infatuated with Chinese EVs in the positive sense of the word (though many are actually impressed with them). I think it's more of a nervous, begrudging acknowledgement that the future of cars is electronic, which goes against the desire or expectation of many people in this sub over the last ten+ years, and it's become blindingly apparent that that future is being molded by China. There is propaganda going on, but there is also a true reality check that the US and Europe has been caught with their pants down, and even then, many still refuse to acknowledge it.
And I think this sub is for discussion about cars and the industry in general, not just the cars enthusiasts like (beside the fact that many are genuinely enthusiastic about EVs).
CarsonDama@reddit
It's 1000% because their labor is borderline slavery
massacre808@reddit
Does ford have a v8 for sale?
massacre808@reddit
Does ford have a v8?
Joyce_Jin_4Eva@reddit
The death of American exceptionalism, or rather the shattering of the belief that it ever existed at all.
tastesinteresting@reddit
Have you been living under a rock??
Sure the old traditional american car industry has been playing catch up to what's done in europe for decades and decades.
But now when it comes to EV specific technology, Tesla and Lucid have produced like 80% of all the innovations worldwide. If that isn't a sign of American ingenuity..
Are you aware of the fact that china only started producing decent EVs after Tesla was already very well established, and specificly only well after Tesla opened up factory in china? Was it all just a big coincidence??
The chinese also bought their way into making better cars by acquiring Volvo and Lotus, from which they got manufacturing techniques and engineering..
Recoil42@reddit
Nio ES8 - 2018
Gigafactory Shanghai - 2019
Wherever you're learning things from, get new sources.
tastesinteresting@reddit
A car that only started to be sold outside china in 2021?? Get a grip
Also, nothing innovative about what it claimed in 2018 when compared to what the Model X had at the time. Nio had less range, was less efficient, less acceleration, slower charging, worse in every way really.
Recoil42@reddit
Goalposts: Moved.
tastesinteresting@reddit
What are you on about?? 🤦
joeislandstranded@reddit
Hmm. Seems like opening factories in China isn’t such a great idea after all
tastesinteresting@reddit
True, but in the end it doesn't make so much of a difference, china also engages in industrial espionage at a very high level, they've even been caught using hidden chips on hardware with this objective.
And when they try be smartasses by undercutting the competition with half price cars using massive government subsidies, they face very much deserved tariffs. And they're also forced to build factories where they wanna do business, which removes a good chunk of the price advantage and where their practices will face more scrutiny.
animerobin@reddit
I would like to buy a half price EV please
tastesinteresting@reddit
😂😂
Easy, go live in some country where they don't tariff chinese cars, even better go to live in china, and work 12h a day 6 days a week like they do, earning the wages they do, so you can find out by yourself how much cheaper it will actually be 😏
animerobin@reddit
I thought I lived in a free country, where I was free to buy whatever I wanted and people were free to sell things to me.
tastesinteresting@reddit
Where do you live? afaik there's no country that has straight up banned chinese cars..
animerobin@reddit
I cannot buy chinese cars in the united states.
tastesinteresting@reddit
You do tho, Lotus, volvo and polestar are exporting electric cars from china to the usa..
Other chinese brands have just decided to not offer their cars in the usa 💁
xienze@reddit
It absolutely does for smaller items. As soon as you build your product in China unless you have your own round-the-clock security you WILL have your product produced in "ghost shifts" (i.e., you contracted the Chinese factory to be N items, they build an additional N off the clock and sell them). Industrial espionage is definitely a problem, but even worse is allowing them to manufacture your product, because they ARE going to produce a perfect knock-off.
tastesinteresting@reddit
agree 100%
obviously i was talking about cars context in specific, it's def a bigger problem with other products, where the whole tariffs game is much more difficult.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
If you wanted access to the Chinese market you had to and they wanted access because they wanted money. I know the Pro-China people here make it seem like the Chinese automotive market grew organically, but it had HEAVY HEAVY protectionism.
Daddy_Macron@reddit
There's nothing organic about the global car industry at all. Countries like Japan, South Korea, and Germany used everything from industrial to monetary policy to ensure their domestic car companies developed a global market for their products. The French and Italian car companies enjoy close, preferential relationships with their home governments. The major US companies have done at least one of the following:
Been bailed out by the Federal government.
Received tens of billions in subsidized loans, grants, and free shit from Federal and local governments..
Swam in EV subsidies at both the Federal and State level.
Most of the large Chinese EV makers are either startups or companies like BYD that never had an auto joint venture.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
Yes, though that has nothing to do with protectionism or the discussion on why the factories opened in China.
Daddy_Macron@reddit
All the countries I've listed have also practiced forms of protectionism as well as incentivizing foreign companies to set up shop in their countries.
History may not repeat itself, but it sure rhymes, and nobody gets a domestic car industry started without tons of subsidies and protectionism.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
Yea, so you agree that China used heavy protectionism to move factories there? I'm glad.
joeislandstranded@reddit
There’s no Chinese branded cars being sold in the US right now. Is that protectionism from the US side?
MembershipNo2077@reddit
Yes it is. Though it's not in the same way, different type of protectionism.
JordanRulz@reddit
It's not like they haven't been trying for ages now. When I was in China in 2017, my family friend drove me around in a first generation BYD Tang PHEV, and a decent proportion of the taxis in Hangzhou were first gen BYD e6 EVs.
tastesinteresting@reddit
Sure they tried but there's a clear difference and evolution in the before/after Tesla opened their factory there.
Their phev were and remain very subpar in comparison with what's done in europe.
cookingboy@reddit
I mean being able to honestly acknowledge challenges and problem is the first step to be great at solving them.
Unfortunately that’s an ability we are losing as a nation. For every Jim Farley, there are a thousand more who dismisses anything Chinese as “propaganda” (just look at this morning’s Xiaomi thread”.
That’s not mentioning the entire EV thing is now a hot political issue, with the people fighting against EVs being the same people who get all upset at China’s EV progress.
tastesinteresting@reddit
What's most embarassing is how much you desperately try to make others believe china is ahead and innovative in EV technology, when the reality is they're not selling any cars outside china with any significant innovation at all.
Jim farley is a complete tool, who's also to blame in how much ford is behind in many aspects of manufacturing and technology to what's the state of the art.
Now go find a chinese car with better self driving capabilities than Tesla, i'll wait.
find a chinese brand with a worldwide charging network, i'll wait some more
a chinese car with steer by wire technology as in the cybertruck
a chinese sedan that's as efficient and achieves as much range as a Lucid Air, i'll keep waiting
find a large chinese sedan that has been independently tested and proven as having consistent record breaking performance as a Lucid Sapphire
a large chinese suv that charges as much range as a Lucid Gravity does in just 15min, still waiting
Oh, they just don't exist, so much for china's ev progress.. 🤦🤦
cookingboy@reddit
Congratulations, you unlocked the skill of cherry-picking lmao.
You are right Chinese OEMs don’t compete in the $250k+ ultra luxury segment, so they are very well ok with cars like the Lucid Sapphire having 5% better performance for 500% the cost.
At the end of the day every Tesla sold outside of the U.S used CATL batteries. Every Macan EV is powered by Chinese batteries as well. Toyota, Volkswagen and many more partner with Chinese companies to gain access to their EV tech. Mazda’s best EVs are rebadged Chinese brands.
I’m not saying companies like Lucid aren’t being innovative, but they aren’t a mass market company. Innovation that doesn’t benefit the mass market is limited at the end.
You criticized companies like Xiaomi doesn’t sell outside of China, but what about Lucid not selling outside the U.S?
What Jim has been saying has been echoed by almost all Western OEM CEOs. But sure, I guess you know better.
tastesinteresting@reddit
Again more lies and disinformation from you, as usual. You really struggle at coping with reality huh 😆 it's amusing to see
Now pointing out the cars that actually lead in range, efficiency, performance, charging times, all aspects that are most important to evaluate specific ev tech: this is cherrypicking 🤣 do you even think before typing this? Because it sounds like you're completely delusional.
You're still talking about some car that hasn't been released outside china or been tested independently and remains pure vaporware?? A car which btw doesn't innovate in any shape or form, instead just relying on lower prices achieved with massive subsidies and slave labor.
And now you're lying about where Tesla gets their battery cells from. 🤦 the euro-built Model Y, their best selling car from gigafactory Berlín uses 4680 cells produced in-house to power the long range versions, which have class leading range. The chinese cells are only used in the cheaper, lower range versions.
Again you mention the VW-Xpeng deal which is only for cars sold in china, when you know damn well that VW has partnered with Rivian for the tech used in their global products. But that doesn't fit your narrative so you'd rather try and fool others with this bs.
Even more lies? 🤦 Lucid does sell cars in most of europe, and also in the middle east. And they're going to sell cheaper cars in lower segments aswell.
And oh yeah every western CEO has been saying Xiaomi makes incredible cars 🤦🤣 now that is some cherrypicking. Unbelievable 🤦 how delusional can you get
cookingboy@reddit
Dude, you live in a reality that is so far removed from the rest of the world. But sure everyone else, from me to Jim Farley, are just Chinese shills lol.
Stop having opinions on things you know nothing about. Just..stop.
coffeesippingbastard@reddit
Nio ET9
This is not the flex you think it is. Because their EV market is so mature they have enough competing companies to offer ev charging that you don't need a single company to sustain a charging network.
Nio et7 goes 620 miles
Here's a full battery swap in 3 minutes. https://youtu.be/VmWL1hZQmD0?si=3riivRdUXn8Q9MtF
tastesinteresting@reddit
Let's see
Nio ET9, a car that isn't sold anywhere outside china 🤔 strange. Their steer by wire system was developed and is supplied by ZF, a german company, who also supplies Tesla. So no chinese innovation here. Looks like Nio is not very confident on their control software, one would think they'd already be selling the car in other markets..
The charging network seems to be important, byd has plans to build their own chargers in Europe..
Nio ET7, finally a car that's sold outside china.. let's see: the 100kwh version achieves 580km wltp, very far from the 840km wltp on a Lucid Air gt. There's also info on a 150kwh version that.. again, is not sold anywhere outside china and thus hasn't been independently tested at all. The range they claim is indeed 1000km cltc, which equates to around 830km wltp, and this is with supposedly a 40kwh larger battery than the Lucid, which shows how behind Nio is in efficiency (or they're lying about the battery capacity) 🤔 strange that they don't sell these cars anywhere else, you'd think they'd bring their best to compete in Europe..
there's definitely a pattern here, and it's pretty clear: they announce these cars but they remain vaporware, and when you do an apples to apples comparison, they're not even innovative at all..
And you bring up battery swaps, an impractical technology of which they don't even have any reliable network outside china. Not to mention there's nothing innovative about it, Tesla already experimented with it 10 years ago.
Meanwhile the Lucid gravity can charge some 360km wltp in as little as 10minutes at any 400kw charger.
https://youtu.be/ornzeGXH59w
elhoberto@reddit
Except that video was literally filmed in Norway.
Just because Tesla experimented with it means it was a dead end? Sounds more like they couldn't innovate a way to make it work.
tastesinteresting@reddit
It's still a very limited region of europe
And at this point it's even more clear that its cons outweight its pros.
That same youtuber does 1000km tests and the Nio battery swap cars don't offer any clear advantage in the time taken to complete the test. Considering the rate at which charging speeds are increasing, the battery swaps will soon be obsolete.
elhoberto@reddit
my god you must be exhausted from moving goalposts
xlb250@reddit
The China problem was caused by greed.
US shifted manufacturing to China to optimize material, labor, and regulations. They accepted joint venture requirements to expand into foreign markets (and train their talent). It was a nice run for investors, but China is too strong now.
rbloedow@reddit
This. America gave up manufacturing dominance and exceptionalism because of greed. China and their joint-venture requirements basically forced outside companies to train Chinese manufacturers in exchange for access to their vast market. It’s incredibly shortsighted and now American manufacturers are paying the price.
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Partly_Dave@reddit
In 1999 I took on a contract drafting gig at an Australian engineering company that had been in business since 1935. They had a huge factory - but no machinery.
It was empty, except for a printing press that was being assembled, and then after testing, it would be dismantled and sent to China. They told me all the machinery had been sold and staff laid off, as they were getting all the machining done in China. Because cheaper, of course.
So parts were made up, shipped to Australia, the machine assembled, and then shipped back to China.
I asked why the Chinese didn't do the whole thing themselves, and was told, "They can't do the electronics. Yet."
And that's why I retrained and switched from engineering to residential drafting. So far, China hasn't moved into that market.
Oh, that company that had been in business for almost 65 years? The manufacture of the press was secured by an Irrevocable Letter of Credit held by a local branch of a Chinese bank, payable once the ship left port in Australia. The ship left port, the bank revoked the letter of credit, and the company went bust.
xdragus@reddit
Then when realization kicked about their shortsightedness , propaganda started saying China was stealing IP.
But it was in their original contracts that would be shared/taught since they had to partner with a Chinese company who had majority power.
CheetaLover@reddit
That was not the real problem. The real problem is they thought their product was good enough and they could hide behind regulations that the Chinese would not pass. The element of outsourcing to suppliers in china speeded things up but was not the only thing. Another problem is China doesn’t want to buy premium products from Europe as they became increasingly nationalistic in later years as well as making arguably as good products.
djdecimation@reddit
Nixon
The_On_Life@reddit
A good friend of mine is an American living in China and he absolutely loves it. I was speaking to a MAGAt i know about China and he said "it's a shit hole."
When I told him my friend is always raving about how great China is, his response was "he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's bought into the propaganda."
6158675309@reddit
I lived in China for two years on two separate occasions, so four years total.
It’s difficult to explain to people the scale and sophistication of China. It was an eye opener for me.
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Rio_Snake@reddit
Look, I just need Mr. Farley to greenlight another in house VIN'd GT500...
SnooCakes3068@reddit
Know your enemy and yourself. Chinese acknowledges behind the world 50 years ago. They worked hard, catching up slowly, eventually got to where it is today. Americans have this sense of entitlement that is unparalleled. Straight up in denial mode every single day. Guess all empire has its days. You work hard to surpass Britain, reaching the height , now it’s time to get cocky and being oblivious to the rest of the world. To me US really is on the way to decline. And won’t take long even
Smash_4dams@reddit
China's growth would be impossible without Western demand. If US demand for manufactured goods suddenly dropped, China would be fucked.
China leverages its massive population for cheap factory labor for American and European goods.
cookingboy@reddit
That relationship has been evolving. Chinese labor are now the most expensive amongst developing nations.
Hell, when it comes to manufacturing, Chinese automation rate surpasses the U.S: https://ifr.org/news/china-overtakes-usa-in-robot-density/
We are decades past when China’s competitive advantage is just cheap labor, these days in many areas of consumer grade manufacturing they are just straight up better.
Tim Cook explained this very well: https://youtu.be/2wacXUrONUY?si=d2yKRqhDr3gMbnK5
Good4Noth1ng@reddit
Also China has millions more college graduates opposed to USA who is now pushing for less education and to get into manual labor jobs.
Grow-My-Wallet-888@reddit
Most of the top engineers and bold technology adapters/oem manufacturers are from Asia. We simply have too many entitled people hanging onto past glory and thinking those countries should always stay as 3rd world country, cheap labor forever. I am not sure why we always look down on others.
Shitboxfan69@reddit
Not sure why youre getting down voted when you're 100% correct.
For any western company operating in China, they have to pair with a Chinese company who really is just there to steal tech. Its just a big enough market automakers NEED to be in, even at that cost.
Let's not act like the Chinese didn't get where they're at without stealing western tech over and over again. My biggest issue is how they don't have a culture based around safety like we do. Corruption in the business world runs much much deeper than it does in the US. They're what everyone thinks the US is but much much worse. If anyone wants a non car example of that, look at how much issues have been caused by companies using salt water sand to make concrete, that's why earthquakes kill so many abd sidewalks swallow people on live leak. Not saying the west doesn't run into the same issues, but not nearly on that scale.
It also makes your cars a lot cheaper when you have a billion people lining up to work for a fraction what you'd pay someone in the west for. That's kinda their entire thing.
Its also Ford we're talking about. US automakers have stayed in this slump of just phoning in cars that have all the tech but call it in on the bones of the vehicle. Not exactly impressive to have them worried.
MisterMakena@reddit
This is such an old way of thought. Globalization removes borders. China isnt just a labor country, its an innovation one.
argarg@reddit
This comment would be true if posted in 1990 but turns out that was 35 years ago and now the situation is completely different.
impossiblefork@reddit
China's exports are actually only 20% of GDP.
In my country exports are 50% of GDP.
Kagenlim@reddit
I mean
Tesla
Ford Mustang Mach E
FFS the GM EV1 and 2 lmao
thegreatsnek@reddit
cognitive dissonance is crazy 💀
never have I seen a more intelligent comment on Reddit (I’m actually serious)
Petrol_Head72@reddit
I was with you until the comma. American manufacturing never really had an edge except for the post WW2 boom. But, American exceptionalism exists very much still today in other forms like capital markets, finance, technology development, etc. These are all debatable, but to say that “American exceptionalism never existed at all” is untrue.
animerobin@reddit
America has the highest per capita manufacturing output in the world.
Petrol_Head72@reddit
Yes but it doesn’t mean it’s the “best” in terms of efficiency, quality, etc. exceptionalism means you are the undisputed leader in each and every category.
animerobin@reddit
We are the undisputed leaders in many categories. Well, we were at least.
Willbraken@reddit
Reddit moment
Infernal-restraint@reddit
America never excelled. They won WW2 unscathed, whilst 20M Chinese died at the hands of the Japanese and Japan got nuked twice, 20M Russians died at the hands of Germans and millions of Germans died, along with millions of Jews, Poles, French, you name it.
America literally sat around most of the war selling these people material and weapons to kill each other, whilst hoarding all the top level refugees trying to find a place to survive.
Since WW2, America was 50% of the world GDP, all they've been doing is go down in rank. They've never excelled, they were just lucky.
christophercolumbus@reddit
America doesn't excel at anything and just got lucky is a wild take.
BaconCheeseBurger@reddit
What country are you from and why doesn't it have a flag on the moon? Also you forgot about the invasion of Normandy, which has never been repeated by any country and probably never will. Such a hater lol
MySisterTheSea@reddit
True about Normandy but it was a joint operation. The Brits and Canadians also played a huge role.
FtDetrickVirus@reddit (OP)
The outcome of the war had already been decided on the ground by the Red Army by that time anyways, they were only invading to keep the Soviets from swimming in the Atlantic.
EnesEffUU@reddit
USSR beat USA in the space race when they reached space first. USSR launched the first satellite into space and had the first human in space. The USA moved the goalposts to landing on the moon to claim a victory.
BaconCheeseBurger@reddit
They also killed numerous cosmonauts in the process. Amazing what can be accomplished when you dismiss safety. I bet you are really fascinated by those giant bridges in China also. Dare you to drive across one.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Here you ago, now American want to go back in that, but they’re facing many issues.
Vova_xX@reddit
it's impossible to go back to that, the US had almost every possible star align for about 30-40 years after WW2 due to them being the only unscathed first world country left.
EnesEffUU@reddit
They will go back to that by simply invading and bombing other countries to protect their empire. They've already manufactured consent to go to war with china over the last few decades. They've been maintaining and boosting military budgets while cutting and gutting key institutions like education. The long term direction seems pretty clear, protect the American empire not by educating your people and out-competing everyone else, but by violent force. Every american president has said they will use any and all force necessary to protect American interests, what are America's interests? Maintaining their global economic position and influence.
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suchdankverymemes@reddit
I did none of those things. Piss off.
Joyce_Jin_4Eva@reddit
Exactly. Well said.
Sir_Sir_ExcuseMe_Sir@reddit
Lmao
bigchilla777@reddit
embarrassing take, you should feel bad
Euler007@reddit
And Europe saw how solid the US institutions were and agreed to give them reserve currency status at Bretton Woods. That should have ended when they stopped backing it by gold but the US empire used oil producing countries to preserve the reserve status. In 2025 with Asia producing everything for these oil producers and getting oil in return it makes no sense to use the USD as a reserve. The US is just the top arms dealer right now, that's it.
piddydb@reddit
You’re ignoring that the American economy is not only the biggest but has consistently outperformed other advanced economies on growth. If there was a bigger economic player with more economic stability than the US, that country’s currency would have replaced the USD, but there isn’t and none seem to be on the horizon.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
That's forgetting that the US has always been a terrorist and if you try to break free from their reign they'll coup you.
Robot9004@reddit
And before that, we outcompeted the UK by stealing their tech and using slave labor. Kinda ironic really.
h40er@reddit
Spot on
Cost_Additional@reddit
I mean 50 million immigrants and nearly 1 million a year every year. No other single country has this migration. It's pretty exceptional.
WheresTheSauce@reddit
Truly absurd takeaway from this. Very much a Reddit moment
k0fi96@reddit
Saying it never existed is super disingenuous
King-of-redditors@reddit
China state sponsored hacking groups attacking my company around the clock. That is exceptionalism
Recoil42@reddit
Time to pick up a dictionary.
Spirited-Pause@reddit
He says on his:
smartphone/laptop/tablet running an American OS and 50% chance of being a device by an American company
over an internet largely developed in the US
on an American website
all powered by an electrical grid of which a large component was invented by american scientists
Sure, countries like China are making great strides and quickly catching up to the US in innovation, but to say that American exceptionalism never existed means you’re either incredibly ignorant/delusional or spouting CCP propaganda.
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DeezNeezuts@reddit
It’s a repeat of Japan in the 80s.
footpole@reddit
American exceptionalism doesn’t mean that America is exceptional in every way but the belief they have that this is the case. The overinflated ego is definitely something that exists.
okglue@reddit
lmfao assmad much, Joyce? And nice job replying to your own top-level comment:
Joyce_Jin_4Eva@reddit
Don’t be so silly, child.
bonestamp@reddit
It's not surprising. We may have designed it, but they've been building most of our coolest stuff for the past two decades, not to mention all of the intellectual IP they hacked in and took or otherwise gained access to and stole.
Far_Journalist8110@reddit
Yep. We truly peaked with the Durango Shelby SP360 and it was all downhill from there
pentaquine@reddit
I'm sure he slashed his own salary out of embarrassment.
1kdog5@reddit
Any average person can look up companies like BYD and see their offerings and see some priced at like 13k and see a potential competition issue. As well as the fairly positive reviews and content around them.
Having additional insider info as the CEO of Ford and not knowing this just makes you a dumb*ss.
He's probably been aware of this for over a decade, but is just now telling it outward to the American people.
Erlend05@reddit
Jim Farley. I hear what youre saying. Do. Something. About. It.
RSzpala@reddit
It’s almost like if you ignore tech innovations to preserve your embedded industries other actors in the world will move on and progress without you
TooManyCarsandCats@reddit
If Ford is admiring the Chinese, it’s a good thing I’m a Cadillac man.
FaluninumAlcon@reddit
Thanks, Apple.
CactusJ@reddit
Everything old is new again……
Ford CEO Donald Petersen during the development of the 1986 Ford Taurus.
As the story goes, Ford executives were benchmarking several foreign cars, not just the Audi 5000, but also Japanese sedans like the Honda Accord and Toyota Cressida. These Japanese cars were admired for their quality, refinement, and user-focused design.
During this process, Donald Petersen reportedly took home a Toyota Cressida — a high-quality Japanese sedan at the time — and was so impressed with its comfort, smoothness, and overall refinement that he was reluctant to return it. This anecdote circulated within Ford and became symbolic of how far behind American automakers had fallen in terms of design and quality.
Rather than being seen as a negative, the story helped underscore the urgency and seriousness of Ford’s effort to improve. The development of the Taurus was a major turning point for the company, combining aerodynamic styling, modern interior design, and improved quality control — all inspired in part by European and Japanese benchmarks.
SiliconTheory@reddit
If history repeats itself, hopefully Ford can adapt and be a competitive manufacturer for US.
uncleawesome@reddit
That's the problem. History shouldn't have to repeat itself. Ford should be better by now. They quit improving their cars like the Japanese. They even quit making cars period. It's not a manufacturing issue, it's a bean counter issue.
ducky21@reddit
Their final cars in America were the Focus, Fiesta, Fusion and Taurus.
The Focus and Fiesta had the disastrous PowerShift transmissions, the disastrous Fox 1.0L turbo threes, and the rest of the car was not super well thought out. The Fiesta HVAC would start clicking after a couple years, and there was no updated part so you could acrobatics your way under the dash to replace it, but it's just gonna do it again in a couple years. I sold my 1.0L before the belts ate themselves, but Ford did buy me a longblock under warranty when coolant found its way inside cylinder 2.
The Fusion and Taurus were Fine, but uncompetitive and mostly trading on fleet sales. I understand the Fusion Sport to have a glass transmission, but unlike the Fiesta I didn't own one so I can't speak to that.
dm117@reddit
There’s a reason that Ford was the only American car company not to get bailed out in 2008. This sub hates Ford but they tend to adapt and overcome.
Grow-My-Wallet-888@reddit
If there weren’t those financial engineering moments in the late 80s or USD wasn’t the reserve currency, Japan manufacturing would have taken over and own the world. We have not produced high volume quality cars or electronics or houses for a very long period, but we keep complaining about others for advancing forward. What a putty.
Parrelium@reddit
The whole country wants the rest of the world to get back under their thumb.
I see it in politics too. People want the current government to fail so that their party can win by default. How about convincing us that your party is better in spite of the other governing party’s successes.
Totobanzai@reddit
I was there at the beginning of June, Beijing to be precise. Nearly half the cars were electric, almost all the motorbikes were, and people were still using bicycles. There were no was jalopies anywhere, mostly brand new cars with more tech and better setups than you’ll see in America. So an awesome electric MG sports car.
DisconnectedDays@reddit
I want the YU7 so badly 😭
ink_Ok@reddit
Farley is a liar. Ford has walked back their EVs significantly in the past 4 years. Look at the Lighting and MachE, they haven’t had an update since they were released. And they had traction and you could see the innovation at the time. If the F150 Lightning had as many trims as its ICE sibling it would be the top selling EV forever. But, no plans to update them as far as anyone can tell. Looking at their competition, GM, Mercedes, BMW, Kia group, have all far surpassed Ford in the EV market. This was a deliberate decision by the Ford CEO so listening to him even attempt to speak on the matter is a waste of everyone’s time.
niftyjack@reddit
Right? The Mach E came out swinging and they let it stagnate. It's been out for 5 years with no major updates now, despite big leaps in battery tech, charging speeds even on a 400 volt architecture, motor design, etc. The least they could do is make it cheaper. If I was a global market consumer I'd have zero reason to go for one over a Xiaomi SU7.
marksocials97@reddit
Only gonna get worse if the “big beautiful bill” passes
Professional-Pin5125@reddit
Sounds like the same derision that Japanese cars received in the 1960s. We know how that turned out.
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TheAngryFart@reddit
Well that’s great because their ICE progress has been less fruitful than Kia’s. 😂🤣
Nerdenator@reddit
It’s amazing how cheap you can build shit for when workers are mercilessly exploited.
juicytootnotfruit@reddit
I hope this puts Ford in a position to really step up their game without having up their prices.
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
Jim Farley: Also, I don’t make any reasonably priced or sized EVs for the US market. Mach E & full size pickup? Yeah, that’s enough for everyone.
China makes EVs because the government essentially forces it.
jeepfail@reddit
He has got to be one of the most in touch American auto CEO’s in years honestly.
Famous_Bit_5119@reddit
And rather than support American innovation and manufacturing to not only compete, but exceed the Chinese progress, he will we vilified by the Xenophobic masses for being "un-American".
thegreatsnek@reddit
round of applause to this sub for not being a braindead racist echo chamber
mgobla@reddit
Ford needs better CEOs
coffeesippingbastard@reddit
Why? So ford can have another emperor with no clothes that puts their head in the sand while the company sinks?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Ford needs better cars.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Okay? Wake me up when they do something about it.
How is this any different than in the 80s when the Japanese were eating Ford's lunch? They'll just double down on their position, do nothing to improve, and wait for protectionism and bailouts.
techtimee@reddit
He's mentioned the skills of the Chinese a few times now, not sure what to make of it at base, worry or compliments.
Recoil42@reddit
"There's a confusion about China: The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. The truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago and that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill. The products we do require really advanced tooling, and the precision that you have to have in tooling and the materials that we do are state of the art. The tooling skill is very deep here."
— Tim Cook (2017)
Psykotyrant@reddit
Uh uh. So why are you trying to move production to cheaper countries again, Tim?
uniyk@reddit
Trmp America forced Tim Apple to do so.
Recoil42@reddit
Too many eggs in one basket, mostly.
No_Emotion4451@reddit
I bet lol.
bonestamp@reddit
Geopolitical risk... and why not, the companies that have that skill are going to bring that skill to those other countries for them so they'll still have the skill.
kon---@reddit
Ho it is when the US manufacture rests, spends more time lobbying than innovating and thoroughly takes its domestic consumer base for granted.
pq11333@reddit
Lets be honest, outside of war machines and things meant to kill, americas falling fast. They advertise poison fast food to kids then big pharma takes over in the latest years. They have a lot of insanely dumb influencers. Future isnt looking mighty good.
CentralMasshole1@reddit
Republican rejection of science is to blame for Ford falling behind and not the fact China pours money into their automakers and Ford only cares about short term profits? This is a problem Ford can and should fix but they rather make fast profits now and shoot themselves in the foot later.
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DaBombDiggidy@reddit
Interesting how many top comments are from fairness people who never comment in car subs.
BipedalWurm@reddit
Behind does not equal lost, time to step the hell up
Critical-Positive858@reddit
it's what you get for running your company like a boys club
Percolator2020@reddit
The writing has been on the wall for the last twenty years, and basically a rehash of what happened with Japanese cars in the seventies and eighties.
soysssauce@reddit
Wait till you see the progression of their military hardware… it will be too late by then.
Psarsfie@reddit
“The most humbling thing he’s ever seen……So Far”
Leo_York@reddit
We just can't have a CEO who's this much in his feelings all the time lol
turningtop_5327@reddit
Seriously
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
What about to deal with one of startup Chinese automakers ? What about just to deal with Xiaomi ? If you can go deal with them, they can help your company and you local partners in China. As serious price war during, every automakers in China is looking any ways to survive. Xiaomi shouldn’t mind to help your Ford.
That’s how BYD so strong. They don’t just make dirty cheap EV models, they also deal and support with some automakers for battery. Tesla and Toyota are doing that with BYD already, they use their battery for their Chinese models. Xiaomi wants to seriously respond BYD in recent, I think that’s good chance for you Ford.
Dyep1@reddit
Lazy ceo-syndrome
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