People who think the death of the high street isn’t a problem: why?
Posted by coffeewalnut08@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 79 comments
I see some people who believe this isn’t an issue and I just can’t wrap my head around it. Obviously in the immediate term, it may not seem a big deal to just have hairdressers, off-licence, vape and phone shops.
But over time, I feel like this will erode our sense of creativity, community and identity. I also feel it will drive more people to stay at home and we’ll become more atomised and distrustful.
It’s also just depressing.
Lastly, if we move our lives online too much, I fear we’ll be easier targets for cyberattacks. I don’t feel comfortable keeping my entire life — including shopping — online knowing it could all get knocked out in an instant and there’s nothing in real life to rely on.
Hopefully this doesn’t seem like an agenda-pushing post but I’m just curious and confused and want to spark a debate.
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
Because it isn't dead. It just moved.
The new high street is the retail park. It has all the same thing the old high street did, plus free parking.
The high street just moved, that is all. The old high street became obsolete. And that has always happened.
Hell, you can find towns all across the UK with an old high street, sometimes even called High Street or Main Street, that is not a high street or main street in common parlance, that fell out of use as such before the late Georgian/Victorian era high street we think of high streets being came into use. High Street is that weird narrow street of old houses and the high street is called George Street, or King Street, or Queen Street or something like that.
High streets just Moved again, and we are losing our minds over nothing. Just convert the shops to housing and accept it. Like they did before.
Several-Support2201@reddit
This. I've also noticed that in our local high street, spaces that are being used for leisure over retail are in a much healthier state. Rotating craft markets, food festivals, community music/theatre events. I just don't think people want physical retail like they used to, they just want somewhere to chill.
sodsto@reddit
the death of the high street typically refers to the death of retail on the high street, but not the death of the high street as a social hub
cafes, bars, pubs, restaurants, libraries, bookstores, arts venues, post offices, supermarkets, they all have reasons to exist today, and tomorrow
MonsieurGump@reddit
Nope. All those are closing too except the big chains.
But the “death of the high street” is a symptom not the disease. I care more about the root cause which is a cancer on our lives.
For thousands of years everyone HAD to work. No choice. Then, in the 20th century, things changed.
We created a society where one wage was sufficient to buy a home and raise a family. If you were a couple, one of you could spend their day looking after the house and children, the high street flourished. Evenings were for leisure.
Then we binned that off. Now everyone HAS to work again. Two wages are a necessity. Nobody shops on the high street cos they don’t have time. Evenings are for housework and, if you can afford it, parenting.
We’re all tired out.
Before anyone starts. This isn’t a “women as homemakers” reply. It’s “either member of a couple should be able to make a home while the other works OR split work/home between them as they’ve fit”.
Zealousideal-Set-592@reddit
The reality was that it was almost exclusively women that were relegated to the house though which left us with a huge power and financial imbalance. I'm not sure that this was the golden time that a lot of people seem to think it was. Especially as women were not all that happy to be forced back into the homes after being allowed to work in the factories during the war. There's a reason that they were being prescribed 'mothers little helpers'. I think we need to be very wary of romancing this time period. I say all this as a woman who is lucky enough to be able to stay at home with my little ones.
WarpedInGrey@reddit
There's definitely something to this, in fact I seem to remember hearing Will Self say something similar on Radio 4 once.
The root of the problem (like so many) is house prices which are why you need two incomes.
Also, staying at home "raising the living", means forfeiting financial independence. In reality this usually means a women having to rely on a man's income which creates a power imbalance, which I can understand is undesirable.
ChiliSquid98@reddit
I always thought it meant the death of small independent shops. Because everyone's consumption mindset has sent them to temu for a 50p phone case. Even though they aren't struggling financially, everyone wants a deal. At the expensive of local people and the environment.
Specialist-Mud-6650@reddit
I think we all mean different things
AnneKnightley@reddit
libraries won’t last - they’ve been getting cuts and closing down for years now. it’s so depressing
TheZYX@reddit
But that's the thing, lease prices are so high that small businesses can't cope without charging fortunes, which they can't. Also small avg ticket businesses like hardware, stationary and even book stores struggle a lot because they need a ton of available (and varied) stock to cover most needs so there's a lot of stagnant capital. The reason nail saloons and vape shops exists is because that niche works on captive customers and actual variety of product isn't that large. Also, cash businesses...
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Hopefully
bahumat42@reddit
I don't think a lot of people don't think its a problem.
I think a significant amount of people have more urgent problems facing them
-cost of housing
-cost of energy/water
-the pollution of our rivers
-climate change
And thats before we get into broader global issues.
As such it doesn't sit at the forefront of peoples minds. It's just lower on peoples priority.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
I feel like community is extra important to cultivate during hard times.
Slight_Art_6121@reddit
Community requires 3rd spaces. And a reason to go to them. If you look at continental Europe, the bar/cafe next to the market is always busy on market days.
Same is true for theatres/cinemas/venues ( but tends to be more of an evening thing).
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
We have third spaces here too but they’re not properly invested in.
Slight_Art_6121@reddit
What do you mean by “properly”? They are invested in, but money is not spend appropriately?
syllo-dot-xyz@reddit
OP seems to be shifting their points, to bait in pointless extra replies.
"Properly" is a vague qualifier which can't be quantified
syllo-dot-xyz@reddit
The only communities bred by a British high street are smackheads, masked youths, and matey asking for 20p for a bus to Slough.
I can't think of a place on a British high street that I'd realistically socialise, apart from pubs but I'm not really welcome there since I don't drink, community revolves around actual stuff to do and afaik that exists away from the high street
fyremama@reddit
Community doesn't exist because of retail stores
ChiliSquid98@reddit
Disagree. That's like saying community doesn't exist because of houses.
The shops allow for staff to form. Shops then become communities of their own. Staff members can be there for years, know other shop owners and, with a successful highstreet, should be able to recommend each other to customers. These shops will have regular customers, old and young, who make it apart of their week to check in and see what's new.
These shops have wears that could have been created locally. And when you buy from them, you are keeping the money local, if they also buy local, then your money has helped many people living in YOUR community.
Shopping local is as community as it gets mate
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
It certainly brings people together in a way that shopping on Amazon doesn’t. And I’m not only talking about retail, there are all sorts of spaces that could occupy a high street
Specialist-Alps6478@reddit
Maybe if people had a little bit more financial freedom they could peruse local small businesses instead of working overtime to barely be able to afford George at Asda. The reason the high street used to succeed was because people had two pennies to rub together after paying all their bills.
bahumat42@reddit
Whether that's true or not it doesn't change what people will prioritise.
It's partially why climate issues have gotten to the current state is because they are kicked down the road as not a "now" problem.
BrillsonHawk@reddit
If there was a cyber attack bad enough to take down the entire internet you wouldnt be able to use physical shops either. Card transactions wouldnt work and you'd be unable to withdraw money. Supply chains would collapse as well
RootVegitible@reddit
There is hardly anything I want to buy on the high street. The only thing I buy in person is shoes every few years.
syllo-dot-xyz@reddit
I moved to Poland from the UK.
They don't have high streets here like the UK, in fact I've never seen one, they just build all the stores people need around the residential estates. Every block has a vegetable store or two, a liquor store, a pharmacy, all the essentials are local to my neighbours.
And all the bloat, fashion, crap, is in huge shopping centres people typically drive somewhere to.
The UK high street is like a fossil of a retail concept
anOddPhish@reddit
There isn't really an increased cyber security risk from doing your shopping online. Just use good passwords and you'll be fine.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
If something happened that made us go offline for whatever reason, then I’d really like to be able to go out and touch grass. The same reason I still keep a bunch of cash, even though I only use my phone for payments now
Shoddy-Reply-7217@reddit
'touch grass' in a high street?
I get the wanting real life bit, but high streets have never been green and leafy.
Society changes and while it's often difficult during the process, the end result can sometimes be better.
Having to go to one place to serve basic human needs like food supplies isn't necessarily a good thing, and the changes that car dominance and supermarkets started, online shopping is just helping along the way.
In many places shops are being replaced with cafes and experiences, which gives humans a place to go to socialise and connect, whilst keeping the basic human needs easier and more convenient.
The growing concept of a 15 minute city is a great way to maintain clusters of shops and services close to where people live, easily accessible by foot or by bike.
anOddPhish@reddit
What do you mean by "go offline"?
Odd_Government3204@reddit
The rot started when we lost blacksmiths, farriers and wainwrights.
Life-Bedroom-8886@reddit
If “the high street” was providing a service that people wanted, it wouldn’t be dying.
It is dying.
And I’m comfortable with that. I dislike going shopping intensely. It’s not a useful use of my time or energy and is deeply dispiriting.
I’d rather get my shopping over with as quickly, conveniently and affordably as possible and then use my time and energy for more engaging pursuits.
shrewdlogarithm@reddit
The problem with this "I doesn't bother me so I don't care" attitude is - apart from being assholeish - it's missing the obvious issue that some people relied on it - and some people are literally unable to buy things AT ALL
If you want to shop online (food shopping online is STUPIDLY expensive btw) that's upto you but some people might like to choose their own food and maybe find it at a better price etc.
Clothes shopping online is FUCKING AWFUL - returning stuff which doesn't fit/look good etc. is WAY less fun than any shopping ever could be - which leads to people keeping things they didn't want (good for business - bad for you)
Online is also TERRIBLE at selling people "new stuff" - things they didn't realise they needed - and that means it's far, far harder for new products and brands to compete (which means less choice and higher prices)
A lot of people are still, basically, hunter-gatherers - they like to see and feel and touch and discover things - they also might need something faster than Amazon etc. can get it to them etc.
First-Lengthiness-16@reddit
It is far easier to get into an online store as a new business/product than it is in a bricks and mortar store.
Online is much better for that.
Food shopping generally isn’t done on the high street. It is done in big supermarkets that tend to be nearer residential areas. I have lived in several towns and cities and only one, Watford, had a supermarket on the high street.
It isn’t a lot of people (hunter gatherer types) that’s why high streets are dying. The vast majority of people prefer online or an out of town shopping centre.
People like to moan about the high street dying, but the vast majority of these people do not patronise the high street
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
This isn’t true for the general population, polls show most still like to shop in-store compared to online.
First-Lengthiness-16@reddit
You missed of town shopping centres.
Most people don’t want to shop that much on the high street. Limited parking, large distances between stores and the general state of the high street (drunk/high people, dirt etc).
namiraslime@reddit
You can still do all of this at retail parks
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Retail parks and malls are so depressing lol. I can’t fathom why people would want to replace them compared to a high street
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
Free parking.
TheHalfwayBeast@reddit
I can't drive and bus routes don't go to retail parks.
First-Lengthiness-16@reddit
Really? They do near me. There are 4 within a 5 mile radius and they all have bus links.
Seems odd that in your area they don’t.
shrewdlogarithm@reddit
The only clothing shops in local retail parks are Sports Direct and Next which isn't a great range of choice is it?
After that it used to be all carpets but now it's gyms and fancier charity shops (even they're moving out of town centres!)
Apple2727@reddit
“People want this, people want that”
If enough people wanted the high street, there would still be a high street.
They don’t.
You personally might not like that, but one person doesn’t alter the market.
Times change.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Polls show most people wouldn’t like to see their local high street disappear. Which is understandable. Living in a ghost town is depressing, even if you can shop and socialise online
Presence_Academic@reddit
Those people also post about how awful it is when a local restaurant closes. “What a shame. The last time I was there three years ago it seemed busy enough.”
drplokta@reddit
Voting in polls isn't any use, you have to vote with your wallet by spending money on your local high street, even when better and cheaper options are available online.
TapAcceptable3380@reddit
Good points well made - also, if people are buying a toothbrush online, ( say?!) then they get it delivered, isn't this contrary to acheiving better air quality in towns, & cities?!! It's all so dumb...?!
drplokta@reddit
It's better for the air quality for one van to deliver a hundred toothbrushes than for a hundred cars to drive into town for their drivers to buy one toothbrush each.
AskingBoatsToSwim@reddit
In countries with healthy economies, they still have bustling high streets and it makes towns and cities seem much more pleasant to be in.
The truth is our economy is dead (probably thanks to 14years of tories etc).
Yea, the high street of 1940 will never return, but there is evidently still a life for them and people don’t want to live in dead towns.
elementarydrw@reddit
I don't live in a town. When I need things it's often easier to go to larger shopping places on the outside of a town than having to drive through unfamiliar and unintuitive urban streets, looking for a car park to put a days wages into for a couple of hours of parking, to then find I can't get the thing I need in the first place as it's sold out. That, or find it online and order it there.
If I want to go to a pub, or a cafe, I'm more happy in an idyllic village, with plants and trees surrounding me than cramped into a dirty high street.
Growing up walking distance from a town didn't mean I liked going all that much either. I much preferred going out to villages.
I have seen this death of the high street stuff, but haven't even noticed it before, myself.
Minskdhaka@reddit
I'm not British and don't live in Britain, but I've been to Britain a dozen times. During each of my visits the high streets I saw seemed vibrant and very much alive, especially in London: perhaps less so in, say, Luton. I'm thinking, for example, if Hoe St. in Walthamstow, which is a joy to walk in. So when you say the high street is dying, do you mean high streets outside London? Or do you mean even London ones, because they used to be more alive at some point in the past?
shrewdlogarithm@reddit
I don't think it's "not a problem" - I just think there's nothing you can do about it.
High Streets have died mostly because people stopped going there in sufficient numbers to make them viable.
Our Town Centre was mostly killed by a council who insisted on making a royal mess of the place - closing roads, closing car parks - generally deterring people from coming into the town (unless they're cyclists who obviously spend fuck all but we have lots of paths for them to use to come to see nothing)
If you look at the areas people still visit it's mostly because they're nice places with cafes and bars and that supports some niches shops, an M&S maybe - that sort of thing - e.g. it's not really for the locals tho
The world has changed - you shop online or visit retail parks for stuff now - must be a massive pain if you don't drive tho
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
I just find retail parks depressing + I think it should be normalised coming into town centres on public transport
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
People DO NOT WANT to be on public transport. It isn't fun. It isn't safe. It isn't convenient.
Make public transport at least two out of three, and maybe there is a shot. There is a reason people call it the safety net for the poor, not the first choice.
shrewdlogarithm@reddit
The reason retail parks work and town centres don't is that the couple-of-dozens companies who appear in every retail park get a "box" into which they can insert a ready-made store.
Town centres are full of weird and wonderfully shaped shops which don't align with stores needs etc.
Take B&M - started as a warren of a shop in Cleveleys, expanded a bit to appear in a lots of 'dead Woolworths' etc. - now almost exclusively targets larger retail units (see also The Range and it's incorporation of Wilko and Homebase) and so on
Supermarkets long since abandoned the town centres for obvious reasons - people just used their car park for other shops - and so what's left? Vapes and Hairdressers...
PaintballProofMonk@reddit
I'm from Coventry. What creativity, community and identity?
Depressing from an Aesthetic perspective... I live in a city of grey brutalism where the only new buildings are student accommodation, built to be torn down when the bubble pops.
tothecatmobile@reddit
Because the "death of x" has never been a long term problem before, and there's no reason to think this is any different.
The death of the high Street isn't a problem that needs stopped (because we can't stop it), it's a nautral shift in society that will lead to something else that our grandkids will one day lament the death of.
Ok-Ambassador4679@reddit
Just because you can't give an example of 'the death of x has never been a problem before' doesn't actually mean the death of x isn't a problem now. What about the death of Journalism? Journalists now cosy up to politicians to get scoops, or get intimidated by the wealthy to avoid publishing the truth rather than hold them to account. What about the death of manufacturing in the UK? What jobs replaced manufacturing as we as a nation move ever to lower satisfaction levels of work and lower wages whilst we simultaneously make it harder for people to get into work and see jobs splashed left and right? What about the death of free community spaces where the young could go hang out safely, or there was genuine intergenerational interactions? These have all spawned problems, you're just not aware of them...
I'm therefore not sure this is such a wise take? The high street has been with us for 200 years+ now, mostly in one stable form - a centralised hub of economic and societal activity. It was with the advent of out of town retail parks we first saw the 'convenience' of driving to one place to do all your shopping that impacted high streets. Now through the convenience of buying things online can you avoid going out altogether.
I think u/coffeewalnut08 has a valid point in terms of societal cohesion and social interaction, as depression and loneliness is on the rise is many generations across the board. u/sodsto says social hubs will continue to exist, but say that to my rural towns where working people have no money to support cafes, bars and pubs, and where the local post office is struggling to make ends meet. Where no one has any money to start a business, but also no trust no one else has any money to spend in said business anyway. Small shops went a decade ago through the global recession, and any that survived have gone through austerity, a pandemic, and finally cost of living is killing the last remnants of local homegrown businesses. Many chains don't see it as a viable high street to open a shop in due to the poverty and low foot fall of the town.
Further to this, you're fuelling the low wage and extractive economic model versus a more circular economic model. Online retailers can pay less people for higher productivity, and funnel profits to Ireland or Luxembourg avoiding taxes coming back into our country. As wages continue to be slashed, people can't afford to spend on anything, so unnecessary spending goes first. Most people don't have the opportunity to start a business online. A business on your high street would be way more feasible, if you could trust people had time and money to spare and support local businesses. That's failing now, and unless it's a luxury good or service in a rich area, you're probably not going to get support from the rich.
This new societal model is as much being shaped, as it is being done by choice. The convenience of spending your money on Uber eats or ordering from Amazon versus going to a local store and spending to support local people is doing damage. You're just blind to the damage of the because there are benefits to you as an individual. But as those benefits manifest into bigger problems that the majority of people aren't making the links, it will seem like 'progress', but in reality we're in a hollow, yet convenient and efficient wasteland, where community, environment and the life satisfaction of regular people are massively deprioritised over profits.
sodsto@reddit
FWIW I decided to truncate my comment for the sake of being pithy, but I don't disagree. I stand by the point though that when the news refers to "the high street", they're typically referring to an old model of retail that's been going away forever (how many decades have I heard stories about M&S's performance?).
A couple of unspoken points I didn't make are:
* social spaces and businesses do require money, which is either already embedded across the community, or likely requires subsidy through other local funding, probably the council
* locally, sometimes a town can't financially or won't politically support social spaces and it's a a signal that the town is failing, not the high street in the broader sense of the OP's post
* relatedly, the UK hasn't done a good job of balancing inequality, and a lot of places are just absolutely humped, which IMHO is a much deeper issue than online retail
There's a separate chain of news stories which are not "the high street", but rather "local pubs closing". Which is true, there are fewer than in the past, but there's nuance in that: people also don't drink today like they did 25 years ago. Some places fail because running a business is hard; some places fail because they've grown old with their clientele. I do believe though that they form social spaces, provided they're more flexible than just being a boozer.
Finally, there must be room of course for communities/towns/villages to fail: they're not museums, some places naturally will succeed where others don't. The future won't look like the past.
[Mostly I relate some of this to the shite wee post-industrial town that I grew up in and the neighbouring towns, and they've been on the apparent downswing the last quarter century in tandem with the upswing of the internet. There are fewer pubs, there's less retail, but even there, there's more food and drink than there was in the past.]
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
I guess I don’t foresee much positive coming out of this trend
Hazzardevil@reddit
What is there to save? A bunch of shops owned by international companies?
LexyNoise@reddit
Online shopping didn’t kill the high street. It was the big supermarkets.
Back in the 80s and early 90s, supermarkets were much smaller and only sold food, drink, and basic household stuff like laundry detergent and shampoo. They were right in the town centre, usually at the end of the high street. The high street and the supermarkets complimented each other. You’d go into the town centre to use both.
In the late 90s, supermarkets started closing their smaller town centre stores, and opened massive superstores at the edge of town. This drew people away from the town centre, and the larger range of products gave them just enough reason not to go back.
Tesco and Asda killed the high street. Not online shopping.
EasilyExiledDinosaur@reddit
When you can't afford rent and food, little else matters.
thegreyman1986@reddit
I think that, for me, it’s one of those things that I’m both concerned and unconcerned about.
The reality is that the High Street has been priced out by landlords and councils, but the High Street has also been doomed for years by a lack of free parking and pedestrianisation too.
Where I live in the North East, for example, the private landlords have forced businesses to leave because they doubled (or even tripled) the rent and they’ve stood empty ever since. However, in another area the Council has also doubled the rent and forced other small specialist businesses that have been been there for 20/30/40 years to close because they can’t afford that increase.
However, in other places I’ve lived, where the retailers have left some premises, the councils have then encouraged Cafés, Restaurants, Bars and even Micropubs to open in their place and I find that to be a really good idea to change what the High Street is in 2025
Figueroa_Chill@reddit
Well, I live in Glasgow, and our Town centre has been deteriorating for years due to the council's rates that are so high most businesses can't afford them. We have a police force that is not fit for purpose, which is another reason businesses get scared away. Glasgow City Council wants to make our City Centre the world's biggest student accommodation and are willing to give permission for any building to be pulled down to make it happen.
Round_Caregiver2380@reddit
Most high streets are too big for the area these days so they get filled with shit shops that make the area less desirable.
The government and councils should be making plans to shrink them by doing things like offering favourable conditions to convert the shops on the edge into residential properties.
We have too many empty shops and not enough housing. It wouldn't make a massive improvement but some improvement is better than none.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Yep
calathiel94@reddit
I don’t see it as truly being dead, just in need of reform. A lot of space in town centres is poorly utilised and just not up to modern demands. It will take the right funding and an understanding of the change in attitudes, but I imagine the spaces will change to things there are more demand for. Cafes, restaurants, housing etc. Communities are more geared to there being small pockets of social hubs. I’d be far more inclined to pop to a local retail outlet that’s for a restaurant/pub, perhaps a gym, hairdressers, nail bar, coffee shop, small super market or even a bunch of bakeries and green grocers. They need to gear areas to what people actually want and is walkable to housing.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Good point
ImpressNice299@reddit
Because nobody uses them. the internet and retail parks are much easier ways to shop.
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
I see a lot of people on the thriving high streets. 🤷♀️
ImpressNice299@reddit
The thriving high streets aren't the subject of this post, are they?
coffeewalnut08@reddit (OP)
Except they are because they’re a direct contrast to what I’m talking about
Livewire____@reddit
Everything ends. Good. Bad. Everything. And there's nothing we can do to prevent this, sad as it is.
What it will lead to, i don't know. But humans tend to revolve as opposed to evolve.
At some point, possibly after our lifetimes, the shops will probably return. Who knows.
SugondezeNutsz@reddit
Is this post from 2019?
Simpawknits@reddit
Isn't this sub for ALL of Britain?
EvilRobotSteve@reddit
Because I don’t think the death of the high street blacksmith, horse livery store and coal suppliers was a big deal either. Just times changing. It’s ok to feel nostalgia for it, hell I used to work for Blockbuster so I get it, but some businesses just go obsolete or evolve, that’s the way of things.
banco666@reddit
Because they are shut-ins by nature.
qualityvote2@reddit
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