Crypto bro who’s running a country every single 4channer would shit on if he hadn’t arrested everyone who looked like they might be in a gang and put them in a horrific prison. Crime went down, so anyone complaining about the staggering human rights violations is a huge pussy.
This is pretty obviously a critical view of Bukele but there is also the Singapore argument. Singapore did very similar actions to him and yet is a marvel of the world.
Lmfao "draconic law". Buddy, they aren't going to imprison you for doing something obscure. Sure, their laws are much more punishing than other countries'. But if you are just a normal, upstanding citizen and you're gonna be fine (as in, don't litter, don't vandal, don't jaywalk, etc.).
I personally visited the place before, and it feels more or less like the average Western-looking city of tourism.
Imagine being such an infantile child, that you truly believe someone is a pussy for not following the mindset of "if you don't have anything to hide, you should not have an issue with draconic laws".
Maybe think about this topic a bit more before forming an opinion.
You can look up a lotta stuff about Singapore. It’s a very wealthy nation and more powerful than its much larger neighbors Malaysia and Indonesia. The US is also close friends with it due to their vicinity to China and the fact Singapore is along the strait of Malacca. Seems you are just dissing a country due to your lack of knowledge on it.
Technicalllllyyyy they just have a ridiculously low standard for what it means to qualify you as a drug dealer. But yeah that’s a big one. The argument is however it deters any risk of any drug use or sale occurring due to the significant risk of using or distributing. A lot of people would argue drugs even marijuana are enough of a risk of societal disruption that social contract wise people tolerate the extreme penalties for it.
This is mostly where the whole human rights abuse argument comes in. This kind of extreme thinking inevitably leads to people being hit way too hard with the law.
mate, from a user standpoint, weed is about as socially disruptive as me ripping ass after a burrito. no one should be receiving capital punishment just for smoking it
I agree. But their mentality is a severe deterrent prevents anything else potentially dangerous from also being justified. I personally think their severe aggressiveness on weed besmirches a very fascinating and awesome country but you have to see their mentality of it.
They are at the crossroads of the single most profitable trade route in the planet and are a city state with a relatively small population. A very difficult situation to fuck up.
Lol what a load of bullshit. Egypt sits on the Suez Canal. Wasted all the revenues on lossmaking army owned firms and subsidies so people shut up and keep in line. Panama is a bit more successful but still has a lot of issues (on the verge of losing their investment grade bond rating). A lot of their economy is a money laundering scheme for Colombian cartels (I was literally there last week - that money built a pretty amazing skyline of empty apartment buildings). And plenty of other countries have other gifts like oil wealth etc and don't do dick with it. Singapore is a case study of sound policymaking, probably better than anywhere else on Earth.
LKY's memoirs are worth a read. Dude was obsessed with making Singapore competitive and lucrative for foreign investors. In the early days, before big investors would come, he'd literally drive the route from the airport to whatever hotel they were staying in to make sure it looked good. When local unions started acting up he literally pointed at the UK and was like "Do you want to be like them?". It worked apparently. Plenty of other amazing things to mention: such as forcing the whole population to save 10%+ of their income into a retirement account (so no burdensome social security that's literally the single biggest line item on every western country's budget) and then invested that savings pool into amazing companies like Singapore Airlines. Now they have one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, despite having zero natural resources. Plenty more I could go on about.
They were actually pretty poor for a while. You gotta remember they have an incredibly massive nation of Malaysia just to the north of them. Singapore in its early days could have easily been suffocated by Malaysia
“Crime went down” kind of understates the issues they were having prior to his actions. There’s a reason his extremely authoritarian style of leadership was well received by the citizens.
Why are we counting from 2015 when he became president in 2019? It dropped over 60% from 2015 to 2019, so most of that drop wasn't even him.
And to your second point, if the murder rate stayed at 2019 levels after he came into office (even though, again, it was already dropping), about 7k more people would have died. There are well over 100k people in prison in El Salvador. So I guess you're assuming that his authoritarian government has a 95%+ success rate at only arresting criminals?
They’re idiots. Like actual idiots. They seem physically incapable of grasping the concept that with a dictator like Bukele, once you get picked up, that’s it. It doesn’t matter if you’re innocent, you will not leave prison. They love this because they sit on their fat, shit covered asses in their computer chairs, in a country that actually has, to some degree, a functioning system of lawyers that can defend them in court, should they ever find themselves accused of being a criminal. The very thing they accuse people calling out the human rights violations of doing. The irony is ultimately lost on them and their walnut-sized brains.
El Salvador president who allied with ms13 to give them a monopoly. He arrested all of their competitors and they help him to power.
It had the side affect of dropping murders 90%+ in the country. But you basically just get locked up for being a man that ms13 has real or made up problems with.
He also got a bunch of ms13 leaders who were going to testify against him in the US released from US custody and set free in El Salvador by working with trump.
Yeah exactly. Yes you can cut down crime by locking up everyone left and right, but if you start locking up people who haven't been convicted of a crime it becomes dystopian.
The problem is just that people are too emotionally imature for empathy. They don't care for the MANY MANY people wrongfully imprisoned, because why would they if they are not one of them?
I mean the flip side of this is that people are only having this reaction because theyre sick of being victimized by criminals and fed up with the government's limp wristed response to this issue. I could just as easily flip your accusation around and say you're too emotionally immature to empathize with these victims who are just desperate to stop being victimized.
I'm fine with Draconian law if its proponents are willing to flip a coin on whether or not they're put in prison with the criminals they want to see arrested. In this case, if the victims are okay with rolling the dice on whether or not they're arrested instead of the criminals they report, who am I to say no?
I wonder about the state of humanity if people blatantly display their inability to use their brain properly. Police are obviously corrupt if they're ignoring crime, and you want to give them even more power?
Deadass, the police here are the most useless motherfuckers on Earth. A few examples, and I swear I'm not making this up, there's a known human trafficking operation in my town that's been trafficking indigenous women for literal decades. My friend who lives in a different town has a Ukrainian gang that lives across from him and he see's like twenty different Slavic people enter and leave every week. A coworker told me how her town basically ruled by a biker gang, and that there's a known rapist who camps outside a shoppers drug mart. A bunch of murders in the GTA also go unreported because it would lower property value. It's a fucking circus here.
I still remember a quote from the rcmp "leave you keys outside your door" to help prevent violence during car theft. https://youtu.be/r8-8gxc7Q_8?si=V9j9zbw1UBRWYQEn
President of El Salvador. He’s massively reduced violence in the country, which was previously one of the most dangerous in the world, by arresting anyone remotely suspected of being in a gang without a trial and shoving them all in purpose built ultra max security prisions.
He’s also eroded the democratic nature of El Salvador’s government, but at the same time he’s extremely popular because he’s fixed the gang crisis.
Pros:
* Eradicated the gangs
* Country is safe and economically improving
Cons:
* Is now likely president for life regardless of whether or not he stays popular
* Justice system no longer just
The average El Salvadoran (who isn’t in prison) seems happy though
Shakedown by gangs that will kill your whole family or left alone by the government, for the most part, that is improving the quality of life by every metric?
That's a hard decision to make after years of being terrorized by an incredibly violent international gang.
I'm sure that once everybody gets good and comfortable they will start to push back on him. Much like California and their 3 strikes rule. 3 felonies and its life in prison, not anymore but it was.
Problem is if the govebrment thinks you did bad you can get your ass beat and put in jail, and everyone has to deal with it until you serve "your sentence for your crimes"
They went from being the country with a homicide rate of 107 per 100k inhabitants, at that time the highest in the world among recognized sovereign states, to just 1.9 per 100k.
They now have the second lowest homicide rate in the Americas, and one of the lowest in the world.
They went from being the country with a homicide rate of 107 per 100k inhabitants, at that time the highest in the world among recognized sovereign states, to just 1.9 per 100k.
Bukele was elected years after this peak and the start of its ongoing declining trend.
“Questionable means” is also underselling it. They imprisoned like 3% of the population with essentially 0 due process whatsoever. If they just merely suspect you of being gang related for any reason you are tossed into hellhole prisons. It certainly brought down crime rates for now but there are going to be severe ramifications, you can’t just hand power to a dictator, have him lock up 1/30 people, and expect no consequences down the road.
Its easy for people to say its worth it or its wrong when they'll most likely never step foot in the country or talk to anyone from it. Its not really a black and white situation where you can be 100% right in your stance no matter what side youre on.
For the majority of people I'm sure its all been worth it, but imagine being someone who knows their loved one is gone possibly forever because they talked to the wrong person or was just in the wrong spot at some point and are presumed part of a gang. Or being the one imprisoned and having you're one chance at life not just taken from you, but you now must suffer for possibly decades or until your luck/health runs out while being kept in a cage stuffed with gang and cartel members in disgusting conditions knowing you did nothing to deserve it.
In modern liberal democracies we believe that it is better to have 10 guilty people in society, rather than one innocent in prison. But who am I to judge a rich kid born into power who wants to lock up anyone without due process.
Then those 10 guilty people can kill 30 innocents and make your country the murder capital of the world. 30 dead vs one innocent locked up, idk about you but it seems one is clearly worse than the other
As long as you are fine being imprisoned for life over a crime you didnt commit because you know the ultimate outcome is beneficial to society, all power to you!
In modern liberal democracies there is significantly lower chance, that those 10 guilty people will be rabid savages ready to torture and kill you and your whole family, just because you looked at then in a wrong way. But who am I to judge a rich kid born into power, who never had to face any violence and is ready to judge everyone from their safe place
It brought the murde rate down 98%. Say what you will, but I think decreasing the murder rate by 98% by falsely imprisoning some people is better than keeping the highest murder rate in the entire world
This is such a non argument to the point where it's baffling you would even type it and press send.
To answer your rhetorical question, it's because then everyone would be in jail. There's a massive difference between a fraction of the population, most of them actually criminals, being imprisoned and sending everyone to jail.
After about a decade, just the reduction in murder rate alone will have saved more lives than the amount of people put into prison. They went from having 6000 murders per year down to 100.
The problem isn't the first step of mass arrests - it's the second step of rebuilding society after these arrests. Meaning releasing innocent people first (proper due process) reform those for who it's possible and so on and so forth.
Would also help if he wasn't hellbent on turning the country into an authoritarian shithole
North Korea has ZERO (0) crime! We need to be like the DPRK, authoritarian police states that cut deals with the gangs are actually very good. So you would be ok with being wrongfully imprisoned if that meant the country had less crime? I like having NO due process, we should scrap those pesky search warrants, amendments, and criminal courts. It would allow the police to find the criminals much faster and eliminate all the middle men! I would argue that it may help the police arrest criminals before they do a crime. The Patriot Act should be what we follow. Who cares if the government is spying on everyone?! If it stops ONE terrorist attack then that is a complete success.
The nazis were not immediately overthrown for the civil liberty stuff brcause of the upsides. People will sacrifice personal freedom if you ensure food and safety.
So the odds are most authoritarian redditors (which isna stupid description from the other guy) are just.. dumb.
Those poor criminal minorities, I shed a tear every night thinking about the oppressed MS13 minorities wrongfully imprisoned for rape and murder. It's anudder shoah!
I'd imagine that in this analogy the Jews are the tens of thousands of innocent people who are going to spend the next 20 years in a supermax concentration camp because they picked the wrong time to buy plantains from the corner store.
However I would also concede it's not a great analogy. Soviet gulags might be more apt.
It won’t last. Right now the peace is held because the gangs gain more from going with the plan, allowing the risk to their drug empires and gaining power in the prisons where they can recruit. Once it’s no longer beneficial, the major gangs will go back to killing eachother and the government will have little power to stop them.
I can bend on Mexico being considered Latin American, I didn't think the guy really had any distinction in his head between Latin or South American, or North America, but I didn't wanna push the point
But can we at least realize that Brazil is not Latin American
It’s joke friend. It’s not like Columbia or Panama are like either of those countries either. Just saying one is cartel ridden and the other is an authoritarian wet dream.
It was a hard choice. It was either this or status quo continuation, with probably as many dead as innocents are jailed now, and more social and economic loss than this caused. However, they doesn't take away from the fact that the massive repression came at the cost of fucking over so many innocent people.
Probably not, honestly. The big issue with any claims that Bukele fixed things is crime dropped quickly long before mass arrests and indefinite detention without trial. Between 2015 and the crackdown, murder dropped by 80%. Then the crackdown happens and crime drops further, but the government was secretly negotiating with the gangs to reduce violence before Bukele, during Bukele's term but before he launched the crackdown, and after the crackdown. Obviously physically removing a bunch of criminals from society will reduce the crime rate, but most of the progress happened before that, and if there are say 5000 innocent men currently held in detention with no real hope of release, then currently more dudes have been kidnapped off the street to be tortured forever by Bukele than murders prevented by the crackdown.
First time I'm reading this theory. And I've read a bit. I'll need to read more cuz I'm skeptical that the numbers were already so massively down before he took over.
How much reading is "a bit?" Because literally googling "crime in El Salvador" and looking at the chart on Wikipedia shows that murder dropped ~65% in the 4 years before Bukele took office, and over 80% if you include the 2 years before he started the crackdown.
I guess I'd simply never thought this would've been a possibility so I didn't check on it. And no, I usually don't find Wikipedia articles interesting. So I just look up a shitton of digital news papers and blogs and consume everything anyone ever has had to say about a topic.
It seems my way of doing things is very fallible and I should include Wikipedia in my investigation routine. Whoopsie?
Yeah. Its absolutely insane that there is innocent people in a prison like that, with absolutely no way to contact family or anything. The dread and sorrow the must feel makes me sick. That and well being imprisoned with other murderes and extremly harsh and abusive wardens
He's likely in bed with the gangs. The US have repeatedly released papers and tried to stop him from negotiating with them - it seems like he is willing to offer certain gangs (mainly MS13) better prison conditions and shorter sentences in exchange for helping him reduce the murder rate (god knows how MS13 plan to lower that).
Those articles dont make any sense. They allege that gangs that basically ran the country agreed to a deal whereby they would give up all of their power and go to jail so that, once in jail, they would have better conditions to other groups.
How does that compute?
Bukele is a dictator, clearly. Also, he unambiguously made El Sallorders of magnitude safer, and it makes no sense to suggest that he was collaborating with gangs. I understand that the leaders of gangs are saying that he did, but occams razor is that they are saying this because they were ruined by Bukele and are trying to tarnish his reputation, IMO.
The problem lies with you mate. No one cares if you don't understand it. Read more.
You guys can live more comfortable lives with less policing and less severe repercussions if you reduce gang-on-gang infighting, violent domestic crime, and instead focus on the highly profitable manufacture and export of narcotics
What about this deal don't you understand? What about it doesn't make sense to you?
It is undeniable that gang leaders have less power, less control, less safety, and less money now that they did before. These aren't drug cartels. MS-13 is a street gang. Their entire business model comes from shaking down businesses, kidnapping people, prostitution, etc.
Again, Bukele is clearly a dictator. He jails dissidents, doesnt mind that he out innocent people in prison, twists the constitution to personally enrich himself, represses free speech, etc. There are countless horrible things that you can critique him for. Working with the gangs isn't one of them. Frankly that critique is nonsensical.
Am I talking to some dumb AI set to the dumbest configuration?
It is undeniable that gang leaders have less power
It's undeniable that gang leaders have less power even though they're selling more product and making more money than ever?
You pretend "power" is just whatever you decide it is, but for these gang leaders making this lovely deal with the government ensuring that they're 99% less likely to end up in a coffin within a decade, ensuring that they keep more of their money for themselves and their families etc is an insanely obvious indication of their power.
There is no attack that the uninformed like making more than claiming that the person they are talking to is AI. Not sure why that is. Why do you guys like saying that so much?
How about this: can you provide me with one single source that supports what you are saying? You are so bizarrely confident you must be able to find a dozen sources that will prove that MS-13 is a massive drug cartel and that El Salvador is a large drug trafficking nation, I'm sure all from reputable organizations like BBC, NYT, WAPO, etc. I'll be anxiously waiting for your sources!!!
An investigation into officials of the Government of El Salvador and incarcerated leaders of gangs, such as Treasury-designated Mara Salvatrucha 13 (MS-13), has revealed covert negotiations between government officials and the criminal organization. MS-13 was designated on October 11, 2012 pursuant to E.O. 13581 for its involvement in serious transnational criminal activities, including drug trafficking, kidnapping, human smuggling, sex trafficking, murder, assassinations, racketeering, blackmail, extortion, and immigration offenses. Osiris Luna Meza (Luna) and Carlos Amilcar Marroquin Chica (Marroquin) led, facilitated, and organized a number of secret meetings involving incarcerated gang leaders, in which known gang members were allowed to enter the prison facilities and meet with senior gang leadership. These meetings were part of the Government of El Salvador’s efforts to negotiate a secret truce with gang leadership.
In 2020, Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele’s (Bukele) administration provided financial incentives to Salvadoran gangs MS-13 and 18th Street Gang (Barrio 18) to ensure that incidents of gang violence and the number of confirmed homicides remained low. Over the course of these negotiations with Luna and Marroquin, gang leadership also agreed to provide political support to the Nuevas Ideas political party in upcoming elections. Nuevas Ideas is the President’s political party and won a two-thirds super majority in legislative elections in 2021. The Bukele administration was represented in such transactions by Luna, the Chief of the Salvadoran Penal System and Vice Minister of Justice and Public Security, and Marroquin, Chairman of the Social Fabric Reconstruction Unit. In addition to Salvadoran government financial allocations in 2020, the gangs also received privileges for gang leadership incarcerated in Salvadoran prisons, such as the provision of mobile phones and prostitutes.
Amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, Luna also negotiated an agreement with gang leaders from MS-13 and Barrio 18 for the gangs’ support of President Bukele’s national quarantine in gang-controlled areas. Separately, Luna participated in a scheme to steal and re-sell government purchased staple goods that were originally destined for COVID-19 pandemic relief. These items were transferred to private companies and then resold on the private market or back to the government. Luna’s mother, Alma Yanira Meza Olivares (Meza), acted as the negotiator in some of these transactions. Additionally, Luna and Meza developed a scheme to embezzle millions of dollars from El Salvador’s prison commissary system. They also created fraudulent job positions within the prison system, in which supposed “employees” would receive monthly paychecks and return most of the earnings back to Luna and Meza.
Luna and Marroquin are designated pursuant to E.O. 13818 for being foreign persons who are current or former government officials, or persons acting for or on behalf of such an official, who are responsible for or complicit in, or have directly or indirectly engaged in, corruption, including the misappropriation of state assets, the expropriation of private assets for personal gain, corruption related to government contracts or the extraction of natural resources, or bribery.
Meza is designated pursuant to E.O. 13818 for having materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of, Luna.
I am impressed! A reputable source that generally is aligned with your arguments! Much better than the average redditor. Need it be said, I didnt downvote.
That said, it doesn't actually reinforce your points (besides a curious note on MS-13 being associated with drug trafficking, an idea that is notsupported by other reports on MS-13).
Specifically, your source doesn't say that El Salvador is known for drugs, that MS-13 hasn't lost power, and most importantly that Bukele only came into power because of deals with MS-13. Rather, it shows that, a few years after Bukele got into power, he had associates give relatively meaningless material benefits (money, cell phones, prostitutes, better prison rooms) to MS-13 in exchange for reduced activity. Again, an example of why he is a bad leader, but nothing near an example of him bartering a government office for gang power.
El Salvador is known as a transit route for drugs coming from South America to the US.
It is equivalent to a gas station stop on a busy highway in New Mexico. It gets business, but no one is getting rich by owning a gas station or running the drug mules for a country.
And El Salvador is poor af (no money there) and they barely manufacture any drugs at all.
That said, I did enjoy your exploding leg bridge jump imagery, lol.
It isn't! Being a drug mule has basically no money.
Also, there is no drug import/export business. It is like saying you have a job working on apparel merchandising for drug cartels, lol. Import/export can be a very lucrative field as you have to arrange for logistics that will abide by various national and international tax/custom laws. Obviously drug cartels dont care about laws, so they don't have import/export people, they have poor AF people that are hired as drug mules to drive trucks loaded down with cocaine through the jungles of central america. Drug mules are cheap labor that gain basically no money, especially as they trudge through countries like El Salvador.
That sarcastic remark is certainly interesting considering:
Assuming what is called "allegation" is something proven true, especially by sources that, while not fully untrustworthy, aren't trustworthy either.
Crooked logic of implying that president gave power to gangs while also, by and large, locking most of their members up and cleaning up the streets of their influence, an outcome which is experienced daily by common people of El Salvador. Considering point 1, even if you decide to fully embrace your belief in any allegation you see, and that Bukele empowered the gangs, there are a lot of logic hoops to get to that conclusion.
Your propensity for trying to get an edge in discussion through using insults to feel like you have an intellectual superiority over the other side. That's not exactly an indicator of a sharp mind, but rather of an infantile, impulsive person that feels like they can't rely on the value of their intellect, so they have to resort to the stuff mentioned above.
Thus I repeat - improve. But I think you will, with age, and this is just a passing period on which you'll look at with contempt in the future.
Mate you already proved yourself to be extremely smart when you called the most related thing imaginable "vaguely related" and you still think I'm going to read a word you say?
No it doesn’t mean they surrender, it means that the gangs stop reduce overt activity like gang wars and kidnappings in exchange for money and power. And reduced sentences for people who are already in prison or might get caught.
Criminal activity hasn’t decreased, in fact drug output is still spiking in El Salvador. The nations drug output has increased since Bukele took power. The murder rate has gone down however. The prisons are also filled than ever before as the government arrests basically anyone they can get their hands on.
Ms13 and barrio 18 are happy to comply since murder and kidnapping is a minor part of these gangs operation compared to the big money maker that is drug trade, in particular cocaine. These deals slow gangs to control prisons and recruit, while reducing the risk to the drug trade, and allowing them to gain influence in government, all for the price of reining in the low level violence and helping promote the government in election season.
How could he be a dictator if it’s the gangs running the country? Or imprison gang members if the gangs ran the country?
My understanding is: the government ran the country about as much as the gangs did (do?). And the negotiations did in fact happen. And it is safer (from gang violence at least). And the Bukele/ the government does all those things you mentioned in the second part of your other comment.
Tbf 1. this happened years ago. And 2. we only know about what some investigative journalists uncovered. Is it that much of a stretch to say “he’s likely in bed with the gangs”?
It’s a stretch as well as disingenuous when you take a novel attempt at violence reduction (directly negotiating with the gangs doing the violence) and spin that as evidence of corruption and collusion. Lots of South American countries have tried similar approaches with varying degrees of success.
He's paying them exorbitantly by robbing the govt. When he's late on payments they go on killing sprees, and when he's in good standing they disappear human rights lawyers, independent media, opposition parties, and civil society generally on his behalf
Still better than what most of the crime infested south America endures. That is if it's true. I wouldn't trust the USA too much considering how much they have to gain if they get him out and instill a puppet head in his place.
We'd probably see even bigger proportions arrested in europe (uk specifically) if these countries actually applied the principles of law and order and not selectively target specific groups of people.
Not saying that el salvadors situation is a good one, but it wouldn't happen if previous government gave two shits about its own country.
I feel like the point of law is to find a balance between "never arrest anyone" and "lock up literally every person who is accused of commiting a crime".
Are you willing to spend your life in prison because the system "generally" works?
Or is this just something you assume happens to other people until it happens to you?
They had no choice rhe truth is liberal values and human rights are a luxury always have been.
If they can be maintained and even expanded good, but they come also with the responsibility to be a good citzen who acts within the law and asserts the norm of behavior. Without this maintenance of obligations by citizens to act legally and maintain the strength of the law this results in the tyranny of the lawless society.
The maintenance of liberal values degrades either way.
Are you willing to be robbed and murdered because the system isn’t perfect? Or is this just something you assume happens to other people into it happens to you?
I feel like no solution is not always better than an imperfect solution.
Maybe not in your country but in America you absolutely can use lethal force against tyrannical cops and not go to jail. Now of course the key here is you have to be the one aggressed, not a criminal.
Ended well is subjective, but this woman shot back and eventually the charges were dropped. No life in jail. link
Here's one where an off duty cop was killed for B&E. Yes he was off duty, but the fact he was a cop didn’t matter because of Georgia's Stand Your Ground. link
You can look up the rest because my point stands. No matter how difficult it is, it is possible to assert our 2A rights against the police.
The first person got off really lucky, only with a probably expensive court case. How many people who get raided by police and shoot back just... get shot? After all the police come in with overwhelming firepower and use their guns too, don't they.
And 2nd case doesn't really count, this person was B&E outside of his job
Second one absolutely counts when your standard is “you can't do anything to cops!” If that were true then defending against an off duty cop should have had the dude locked up for life, but instead he wasn't even charged.
Here Charges were dropped. Now yes, that cop was off duty, but all these other morons frothing at that mouth would have you believe that even giving the stink eye to an off duty cop would get you locked up for life.
"Texas has the Castle Doctrine, the legal principle that entitles someone to stand their ground in their home if they perceive a deadly threat. That protection evaporates, however, if the person is engaged in illegal activity. Law enforcement allegedly found traces of white powder on Guy's apartment floor, in his car, and in the trash, though the government did not charge him with a drug crime."
You have the right to resist an unlawful arrest, but a) people don't know what an unlawful arrest is, and b) the street is absolutely not where you should be fighting the law. That's how you get killed.
It's wild how obviously you would have to be to believe something like that. Everyone at every level of government will try to bury you alive if you so much a sneeze on a cop. They will see it as an opportunity to advance their image or career. You'll never get anything resembling a fair trial.
It’s wild that your inability to do a simple google search makes you think that instances where this happened actually didn’t happen. I literally can’t help you when you choose to be ignorant.
You realize you are on the internet right? You can literally google all the cases where Americans have killed cops in self-defense and gotten off yet you choose to remain ignorant. Take your Eurotrash elsewhere.
We're not talking about people doing low-level crime. We're talking about an entrenched, multifaceted criminal enterprise that terrorized the civilian population and to an extent the government too. Then spread internationally. I assume you don't know what American law enforcement and politicians did to break the mob and all the insanity that happened during prohibition in the United States. Do you know what RICO is? If you can charge one person with a felony then you can charge all kinds of known associates with a felony.
Reguard talking about shooting muggers. Them bad hombres would kill you and your family with a machete for talking shit.
Keep telling us you know nothing without saying you know nothing.
Your argument against President Nayib Bukele's policies is a luxury of peacetime, applied incorrectly to a nation that was effectively at war. You talk about finding a "balance," but the old balance was a society held hostage, where thousands of innocents were guaranteed to die at the hands of gangs.
The question isn't whether you'd risk being wrongly imprisoned in a system that "generally works." The real question, which Salvadorans faced daily, was whether you'd risk a slightly flawed justice system for a chance to not get murdered on your way to work. It worked out exceptionally.
I feel like the point of law is to find a balance between "never arrest anyone" and "lock up literally every person who is accused of commiting a crime".
Yes ideally. But that's very easy to say from a safe country with a low crime rate where letting a few criminals go is preferable to eroding our freedoms and catching innocents. Those few criminals aren't likely to cause a detriment on your life but erosion of freedoms will.
For a system to be improved on, you need to have one in place and you need control. You don't have the luxury to 'find' the balance when gangs are running the country.
Hundreds of Innocent people were being murdered every month in El Salvador already. That's down to single digits now.
Now that its under control, you can find balance and improve the situation.
I appreciate the sincere morality of your comments.
They also fly directly counter to the reality of a country like El Salvador, which was, in a very real sense, ran by gangs prior to Bukele.
Put differently, before Bukele those in El Salvador had neither a rule of law nor a realistic expectation of not being murdered. Now they dont have a rule of law but they do have a realistic expectation of not being murdered. Objectively that is improvement.
We can both call for Bukele to do better by a people, and also acknowledge that the country has made massive strides for the better during his time as dictator.
That only happens in foreign countries. Its not like here in the USA where a single unnamed informant can accuse you of being in MS13 and that is grounds to get you sent to a foreign jail without trial... wait
I'm sorry, but are you really gonna sit here like a jackass and ignore the fact that the comment you responded to that kicked off this whole thing wasn't just criticizing how extreme the arrests are? He is saying that arresting so many people that tons of innocents get caught in the middle shouldn't be celebrated and your immediate response was to rubber band all the way to "WeLl I gUeSs We JuSt ShOuLdN't ArReSt AnYoNe?!?!"
Like obviously that person agrees criminals should be arrested, but they said that allowing the government to imprison innocents whenever they want is a problem. For some reason you keep treating it as if the options are massively over arresting and not arresting anyone. So when you start arguing with people as if the only option is to keep doing what they are doing, it actually does come across as implicit endorsement because you aren't accepting criticism to the situation.
The original comment wasn't celebrating innocent people being arrested. Just like you can assume the other guy is in favor of criminals being arrested, it's just as reasonable to assume the first commenter wasn't in favor of innocent people being arrested. Don't be dense.
The post is the one celebrating it. The post is literally a bunch of people going "omg how did he do it?!?!?"
I'm saying your comments are being viewed poorly because for some reason you are assuming an all or nothing just to argue with people. You then have comments like the one I responded to where you acknowledge it isn't all or nothing. You then have more comments arguing as if it is all or nothing. I'm telling you to make up your mind because you look schizo right now.
So what the murder rate was at the point that a liberal society can’t even exist you have no conception of the true horror that was El Salvador. 🇸🇻
The liberal society is built on the monopolistic control of force by the state and the submission of the use of force by the individual to the state. Without this cornerstone of democracy/liberal society you are left with privatized violence and gangs and a inliberal dangerous society.
The government suspending right to assert its foundation of monopolistic control of force is the only way forward for El Salvador
Us people in developed countries see human rights abuses like this and deem it unacceptable because we have a level of QOL that the erosion of freedoms are more damaging than letting a few criminals potentially go free. The juice isn't worth the squeeze so to speak.
In places like El Salvador, where you legitimately would have friends and schoolmates murdered on a consistent basis, nothing is more damaging than that. Yes innocent people will always get caught up in sweeping mass arrests and yes that is a tragedy, but how many innocent people were dying every day to the rampant unpoliced crime? Do they not count? Or do you only care about innocents when its an excuse to do nothing.
This is why the people in these countries support this stuff. Same with the Philippines.
Its very easy to sit there from a privileged country and sit on your high horse.
For a system to be incrementally improved on, there has to be some semblance of a functioning system in place. El Salvador did not have that. It needed to do something drastic to establish a system, which i can then work on improving.
Exactly. Same thing with the Medellín Cartel and ISIS. Lots of extrajudicial killings and torture happened to suspected and actual members but it was needed because these organizations were tearing their respective countries apart. It’s a necessary evil.
Talking about it, the other day I read a news where it said that there were suspicions that El Salvador president bukele got in to power thanks to the help of some gangs, the reportes covering this news was an independent newspaper (don’t recall the name) in which the reporters where persecuted with false charges and put into jail, some got out of the country
It’s been so insane watching people celebrate this guy. Yeah man, when you arrest millions of innocent people you’re gonna happen to catch some criminals
And it seems like you only care about innocent people when it’s an excuse to empower a dictator. But let’s do some math to see which is worse. Incarceration in El Salvador’s prisons is 1659 per 100,000 people, while the homicide rate at its absolute peak 4 years before the election of Bukele (it steadily fell in the other four years proceeding his election but I will be as charitable as possible) even if we assume that 9/10 people in the prisons are actual gang members, it STILL leads to the suffering of more people to follow his crackdown policy.
And it seems like you only care about innocent people when it’s an excuse to empower a dictator.
Nice try. Why on earth would I have a vested interest in empowering a dictator in a country I don't live in and has no relevance on my life.
I can just understand the reality that letting perfect be the enemy of good can leave you with an outcome that is worse.
Now that the situation is under control and it is actually a safe place rather than the literal murder capital of the world, you can have a bit of nuance and fix the underlying problems.
But you have to get there to do that. There's no point working on your sugar intake while you bleed out from a headwound.
So again from the above numbers demonstrably more suffering is inflicted by the state in this scenario than before Bukele. If you still cannot see why you are wrong then there is no point arguing with you
The downsides which are heavily outweighed by bringing two of the country’s largest gangs to heel and bringing the murder rate down to its lowest in decades.
Something tells me the local populace won’t give much of a shit
The unique thing about gangs like MS13 is that they literally tattoo their gang affiliation onto their skin.
Imagine if we decided to criminalize Nazism, and discovered that all the Nazis had Swastika tattoos. How many innocent (not a Nazi) members of the public have a Swastika tattoo?
I will not deny that Bukele is a dictator, because he very much is with his curbs of the people’s rights. However, I’ve seen a lot of El Salvadorans say that this is the best thing that’s ever happened to them. That they can walk the streets at night. That gang violence and culture has been practically completely eradicated, something no administration before has ever done.
He made a promise, and looking at his prior political career, he kept it. Unfortunate that he had to become a dictator after, but he was quite a good civil servant before his time in office.
Yet we still have more prisoners than any other country. US is 4% of the worlds population yet has 20% of the prisoners. I'm sure the fact we specifically wrote in a clause for prisoners to be enslaved has nothing to do with that though.
Also crime rate has fallen since the 90s but is still double what it was in the 60s.
Some innocents got locked up, how many hundreds of thousands more will not by victimized as a result.
Innocent people will ALWAYS feel the burden of crime the worst, they are the victims and regardless of the system used they will also get caught in the crossfire. Deciding to let innocents be victimized because you are too much of a bitch to actually deal with criminals just means you shouldn't be in a position of power/position to be responsible for dealing with crime.
But youre okay with jailing innocent people. So am i - we all are. Having a criminal justice system at all necessitates jailing innocent people, not just because we need to detain people while we try to figure out if theyre guilty, but also because or corruption and simple human error that are inseparable part of all systems built and run by humans.
The system before also jailed innocent people; the system now still jails innocent people AND the country is finally safe for the average citizen for the first time in living memory. Which would you prefer?
The last words of Angela Wrightson as she was beaten and tortured to death by known criminals who were repeatedly in and out of the system.
I think my quote might just hold more emotional weight, than some highminded ideals that mere peasants like me could ever truly understand.
You know what though, thinking about it more... sure fuck it lets do it.
I'll sit in solitary confinement for the rest of my life if it means that ANYONE who physically harms or kills someone with malice aforethought is treated equally to myself. I'm willing to be the matyr and do this so long as the criminal justice system/society holds up their end of the bargin.
How about we keep criminals out of society and actively strive to protect victims? If you think I need therapy for wanting that, fuck off and maybe get some help yourself.
Potential criminal and actual criminal are very different things.
I'm more interested in the 3pete criminals being locked away for good executed, and/or holding judges liable for the damages known criminals they release later cause.
I am not suggesting we prosecute people for thought crime, create new crimes, etc.
You might be a criminal so let's throw you into prison. Yes, you might be raped. Yes, you might be murdered. But there's a chance it'll make the world a safer place.
It’s called a necessary evil in response to even greater evils. The Nazis, Medellín Cartel, countless communist militias, and ISIS weren’t destroyed by yielding to all conventions of human rights and due process. Drastic measures were needed and some toes had to be stepped on along the way. Cry more.
It's fucked yes but letting your country get that bad it must be done. You can't fix a problem like that without some people getting hurt in the process. I'd rather my streets be safe and a few innocent locked up than hundreds dying because no one had the stomach to do what's right. I would gladly give up my life for my country to become safer. If my accidental lock up meant 40 actual criminals were too I'd at least die knowing I served my part in saving my country.
Give it a few year and the dumbass gonna learn why peoples dont do that, even fucking dark ages noble dont take all from peasants at once and these morons are doing what even the inbreds try not to do
Bukele is a dictator the short term benefits of cutting deals with gangs in exchange for political power and influence is going to snap back hard when the gangs feel there isn’t any benefit to playing along.
If you think this method of new, you haven’t been paying attention to South America.
Exactly, these people who love this guy would literally support the nazis. I could start posting facts about the German economy, military strength, low unemployment, inflation, and so many other metrics and these guys would eat that shit up and say that it is a remarkable turnaround and whoever led that turnaround is amazing, but then you say that’s Adolf Hitler and the Nazis and all of a sudden they change their tune and say that “oh well that’s different” OR they will bring up the human rights atrocities. These people are so easy to throw human rights out the window if the “bad people” have an easy label slapped onto them like “Gang Member” or “Terrorist.” These guys also hate the Patriot Act and mass government surveillance because it infringes on their human rights and constitutional rights.
Damn! This Hitler guy, really lives rent free in some people’s mind. It’s like an obsession.
Is Hitler in charge of Russia and North Korea, as well? Or we just go with “everything I don’t like is Hitler”?
People “support” this guy, because for now.. it was the only one who decided to take care of cartel mafia type, in his country.
Funny of you, to think of human rights, when you live miles away from any sort of danger. I bet, 100%, if you were in the shoes of an el salvador family, you will vote for this guy, with both hands.
Some innocent people are getting caught in this problem, and it’s really hard to fight fair, when your enemy has power. Go on, you are free to give a solution in fixing the crime rates there.
You can be critical of the guy, but do keep in mind that El Salvador had one of the highest murder rates on the planet and has became one of the safest countries in North America.
Literally everything was controlled by the gangs, and they would even recruit kids coming out of their schools and force them to kill their family members to prove loyalty. The people there are happier with him in charge, however it is an exception regime of sorts, because it's better than before but not perfect.
Literally everything was controlled by the gangs, and they would even recruit kids coming out of their schools and force them to kill their family members to prove loyalty.
Theres no actual proof of that. The only few reports of an incident like that is hardly related to cartels.
Jail everyone wearing a tattoo. Sure, maybe some innocents get caught up. Sure, maybe due process is circumvented and power is concentrated to the presidency. Sure, maybe you gotta get in bed with MS-13. The ends justify the means tho! Now El Salvador is safe :)
Now we just gotta do this pesky transition of power. Surely this will work forever and no one will abuse total power.
Definitely the cannon-loaded-with-grapeshot equivalent to law and order.
He's popular now but I bet that popularity will wain over time, and he's absolutely not gonna let go of that power. Those jails are gonna be filling up with political dissidents who suddenly became gang members overnight, if they aren't already.
Is it better to have 1% of population falsely imprisoned, or have whole society turn to crime ridden shithole? I know what i would vote for. Only real issue i have with him and his system is that the prison is too harsh. You WILL falsely imprison someone, and because of that, prison should be humane, unless you have proof someone actually killed someone or smuggled drugs, then its work camps for them. But if someone is in a gang (allegedly) they should go into humane prisons.
Yes, if by falsely imprisoned means i joined a gang but didnt actually do anything wrong. Or if i was a brother to a gang member but i never reported him or at least distanced myself as much as possible.
If i was a random innocent person, i wouldnt get falsely imprisoned.
you’re arguing that it’s unrealistic that a random innocent could get swept up into false imprisonment? that literally happens in places that aren’t mass imprisoning nearly everyone with a tattoo, so i think calling it unrealistic is goofy.
they literally raided places. wrong place at the wrong time? believe it or not, jail.
Uhm, i never got near a gang, i never stole anything, i never cheated, i never used drugs, why would i even be considered for prison?
If i ever did those things, sure.
You`re conflating 1% of falsely imprisoned guys with innocent everyday people.
Imagine police raiding criminal hideout and they arrest 50 people. There are bound to be some people that just joined the gang and havent actually done anything wrong. They would go into humane prison because they were gang afiliated but no actual evidence of crimes commited. A person living next door to the hideout wouldnt be arrested.
Man I never get how people can’t understand a simple concept. Some policies work in some countries and don’t work in others. This clearly and unarguably worked in El Salvador. If we left the problem of El Salvador to Reddit for a solution the country would burn down in two weeks.
This type of solution wouldn’t work in America or Canada but it very clearly has in El Salvador.
Is it perfect? Of course not. Is it the best solution they have ever had and worked far better than anything suggested? Yes.
Literally speak to someone from El Salvador, they stopped living in fear of the gangs. It's easy to le Reddit arm-chair criticize measures when you're not in fear of being murdered for walking to school.
Nah, the average American Redditor loves to have the high moral high ground. Since they don't know the fear of not even being able to walk out at night or going to the supermarket and seeing the prices with double the prices, they can't actually relate to the average citizen there.
Going to the Supermarket? Try crossing the street pass 7PM. My buddy from El Salvador said if you did that and aren’t affiliated with the gang they’d kill you
Doesn't surprise me with what they probably had to live through.
My partner's work is based on government documentation for refugees and has had to interview a lot of people to see if they qualify for US based refugee attention.
The amount of murder and rape is staggering. So many stories sound like fiction.
One guy said his kid was playing soccer on a field when two rival gangs started disputing their turf right then and there, resulting in somekids murdered in the cross fire. A woman said she and her kid had been repeatedly raped when they couldn't pay a fee to the gang that controlled the area their jewelry store was.
The worst part is that even if they qualify there are just not enough spaces, so a lot of them have to stay in Mexico. As immigrants they cannot apply for work because they would lose the opportunity to apply as refugees to the US. And if the Mexican government gets a hold of them they'll get sent back to the south of Mexico and will have to walk to the US again.
No one really stays on that position long and there's mandatory therapy to manage the workload. The government has to make sure they're not lying so they basically make them relive their trauma as they get interviewed. It's too cruel.
Crime rate also drops to 0% if you kill every person in your country. That doesn't mean it's a good measure.
Instead of fighting the symptoms, we should be focusing on fighting the causes (i.e., inequality, poverty, Lack of opportunity, etc.)
The reason why there aren't as many criminals in many European countries for example is because they offer much better social safety nets which won't let you get to a point where you need to steal food and medicine to survive. It's not that crazy that pretty much every area of high crime is one with more poverty, more inequality, less education, less access to social services, and so on)
Instead of fighting the symptoms, we should be focusing on fighting the causes (i.e., inequality, poverty, Lack of opportunity, etc.)
True! Sadly, it is kinda impossible to do that when most government parties are corrupt, and you only have 3 years to prove that you can actually make the country a better place.
Yeah, it looks a lot better in the short-term statistics to just deport or lock up everyone. But then you have voters like the gentlemen in this thread who vote for exactly that.
I don't understand what you mean that comment. The best thing to do, when you can't do much, is do a short-term solution that works great and then try your best, if you are re-elected, to do a long-term solution in your second mandate.
In this particular case, he basically became a dictator, so he will have a long time in power. Let's see what he does as a long-term solution.
Fighting inequality and implementing safety nets are great ideals, but there are far more immediate problems that need to be fixed. When you’re scared of getting murdered whenever you leave your house, you’re not going to give a single shit about inequality or free healthcare, you just want to be able to walk to the market without fear of violence
Hence the soda and heart attack analogy. If someone is having a heart attack, you don’t tell them to hit the gym, make healthier choices, and eat less saturated fat. You focus on fixing the immediate, pressing problem, and than you can work on addressing the underlying causes
It's an analogy to illustrate that in extreme situations, you need to address the immediate concern first before you can begin treating the causes.
For example, if someone who drank a lot of soda daily suddenly started having a heart attack, then you need to save them from the heart attack first before doing anything else. It would be great if they didn't drink soda everyday, and maybe that's something they can work on if they survive, but right now what matters is saving them from cardiac arrest.
Same deal with El Salvador. It would be great if the circumstances leading to extreme wealth inequality weren't there in the first place, as that would've had a significant impact on crime rates. But when the rate of homicide is so high, you need to manage the symptoms first before you even think about alleviating the cause.
Why do authoritarian coomers in this thread keep bringing up 2015 when Bukele took office in 2019? Homicide dropped over 60% from 2015 to 2019, so most of that drop literally couldn't have been from him lol. You're disproving your own point.
I am not denying that mass arrest stop crime. And it is also well reported and established that due process wasn't followed and someone that shouldn't be in there are in there. Two things can be true
My problem with him isn't what he did to the gangs, it's all the other shit he has done to become an autocrat. Like dismantling democratic institutions and going after political opponents/opposition. He could do all the shit against gangs while also not engaging in the full autocratic bouquet of terrible behaviors.
Imagine this happened where you are, amazing right? Yep until it's a bunch of masked men from the government at YOUR door dragging you out of YOUR home. No doubt that this fella has had an impact on the homicide rate but the amount of accusations of false arrests and evidence of false arrests is too much to just ignore.
"Literally speak to someone from El Salvador, they stopped living in fear of the gangs. It's easy to le Reddit arm-chair criticize measures when you're not in fear of being murdered for walking to school."
Like you've spoken to anyone from El Salvador, get a grip.
Don't get gang tattoos, moron. Like you'd even believe me if I told you what I know.
You'd rather people keep dying and getting raped in much MUCH greater numbers because the poor innocent civilians that were falsely accused of being in a gang because of their affiliations and tattoos have been arrested. Fuck them and fuck your holier than thou moral superiority.
With active policing, a 98% drop over 10 years is good, but it's not spectacular. Myrtle Beach saw a 58% drop while basically doing nothing, and it's still a shithole. A 98% drop over 10 years isn't the same thing as 98% of all crime stopping.
After throwing 3% of their population in prison, it should be like a 5,000% drop, like what happaned in Singapore.
Bukele's policies are basically a net positive for tourism and a net negative for the people who actually live there and can get thrown in jail for life with no trial because they passed a gang member on the street
The audacity of the American comment when they have one of the highest if not the highest percentage of imprisoned people per capita and still have shit loads of crime.
Thank god we have this infallible device that came down from the sky one day which helps us determine whether a person deserves to rot in hell for eternity or not, else we'd be in huge trouble!
Are they violent gang leaders who made deals with Bukele to hide their crimes so he could be elected and are now getting charges dropped by Trump to avoid discovery? Let them go!
Are they random shlubs with no political or legal power? Indefinitely detain!
All of North Korea is effectively a prison. You're not allowed to leave without explicit permission from the party. There are walls and guards whose job it is to prevent people from escaping. Just like the USSR. Just like Cuba.
You are allowed to leave El Salvador. I imagine a lot of violent gang members have fled for the US border in the last 10 years.
In El Salvador, if the government gives you a certain classification you lose your habeas corpus rights (i.e. no arbitrary detention and the right to challenge your detention with due process rights and counsel. Therefore, if the wrong person wants you locked up or if there’s some “mistake” you’re gone forever and there’s nothing you can do about it. No matter the short term gains if those rights are not restored promptly people the pendulum will swing from anarchy to authoritarianism and people start to live in a different kind of terror
I understand it's not the best situation right now in El Salvador. But what rights do you think you have under gang rule? They don't give you due process when they want to extort you, or make your son sell drugs and your daughter sell her body because you can't pay the "protection" money.
I'm sure some of the people in those prisons were given their gang tattoos basically at gunpoint. That's very tragic, and we all hope the innocent will one day be released. But El Salvador was the most dangerous country in the world, because the streets were completely overrun with monsters. Bukele was elected to deal with it. Presumably, if there was a way to imprison all of these monsters without a state of emergency, and swift, sweeping action, he would've gone that way.
Put yourself in the position of a father who has been wrongfully arrested under Bukele's new police powers. You don't know if or when you'll be released, or see your family again. The situation is obviously miserable and unjust. But you do know your children, and future generations, now have a chance at a future that doesn't involve constant violence and fear.
The Allied forces killed a lot of innocent German civilians when they were stopping the Nazis from enslaving Europe. Like the El Salvador situation, that was tragic, but necessary.
Maybe, you’re right. I’m not gonna pretend like most people aren’t happy with the massive reduction in crime.
But let’s see if Bukele ever relinquishes power, or what other emergency powers he assumes, or what other groups he designates as dangerous. When you can lock up one group without rights, you can lock up another without rights.
In the example you referenced there was a definite end date to the state of emergency, the end of the war. In El Salvador the state of emergency appears indefinite.
Didn't they find out he was actually a drug kingpin and he started putting away his rivals and didn't he arrest just as many poor innocent people as he did actual criminals? Like people keep praising him, but he was and still is a problem. For crying out loud, the coffee business he freaking owns was recently found transporting a ton of cocain, and the response was to hunt down the reporter?
Gang violence ruins lives too. Of course I hope the innocent people will be identified and released. Nobody wants innocent people locked up. But like with everything in life, it's a trade off.
Until we have the numbers showing how many innocents are in prison, so we can compare that with the number of lives that would otherwise have been ruined by rampant gang violence, we don't know if the policy has been a net good or bad.
That in particular is the issue, there is no due process, we can never know how many innocents. It may be far below the previous murder rate, it may be above but what is certain is everyone commenting on this thread doesn't know.
That's a good point that I almost made myself. And it gets much more complicated when you factor in not just the numbers of people facing injustice, but the levels of suffering. It would be unimaginably horrific to be an innocent father caught up in the arrests. Ripped from your family, and stuffed in a cage, indefinitely, with actual monsters. But is that worse than the same father losing a child in the crossfire of a gang war? Is a lifetime in a cage worth a safe future for your family?
I've been thinking about whether I'd be willing to pay the price of being falsely imprisoned, if it meant the difference between me and my family living together in fear and extreme danger, and my family living safely, without me, but also without the gangs terrorising the streets forever. I think my children (and future generations) would have a better life in the latter case.
I think the chances of being an innocent victim of the government are much slimmer than being a victim of gang crime while the gangs are running the streets with total impunity. The murder rate alone was 1/1000. Have 1/1000 innocent El Salvadorians been wrongly imprisoned? I doubt it.
But then consider the other crimes. For every murder, how many robberies, rapes, beatings, drug overdoses, thefts etc do you think there were? How many people's lives, entire communities, destroyed slowly and cruelly by drugs, sex trafficking, extortion, slavery, and who knows what else?
And lastly, consider the fact that this government operation is a temporary issue, fixing what would otherwise have been a permanent problem. In a couple of generations, El Salvador will (hopefully) have peace from both the gangs, and the government. Without Bukele, El Salvador would be facing the nightmare of rampant organised crime forever.
If you're somehow an innocent person with a gang tattoo, then get out of El Salvador, or risk being thrown in with the army of monsters who share your tattoo. That seems reasonable enough under the circumstances.
Can anyone in the comments crying about how he's locking up innocents actually name a single innocent he locked up that's still locked up? And I'm being serious here, because all I see are people saying it's a thing while screeching in hyperbole
This is the dumbest comment alive, and that’s not hyperbole. How the fuck do you except someone on reddit to be able to show someone who is innocent when the government denies them a trial to prove it.
I'll take literally anything besides a "trust me bro". I'd take a Twitter screencap of a moment saying her imprisoned son is innocent. If you're gonna make bold claims at least give a fraction of a fuck to back them up with anything.
Noooo but there are some innocent people imprisoned, thats not worth it, let everyone go out of prison and let the country burn to the ground, thats the correct western way of doing things
You skipped out the best, US leftists are seething and calling him fascist and there are articles of them asking if this is “moral”, it’s beautiful seeing them cope
does anyone actually believe 99% reduction in crime? that doesn't read as fishy? its likely still fairly high and numbers are being fudged. Also note that the El Salvador doesn't actually have a plan of what to do with these criminals besides "work them to death"
preemptively jail mfs that choose to tattoo a gang number on their freaking face.
turns out discrimination is a useful human skill.
Who woulda guessed?
I know fuck all about El Slavador. Judging by the comments here, nobody else knows fuck all either. Ain't nothing wrong with shutting the fuck up if you're not an expert on a topic.
it also really helps if you declare a state of emergency and extend it several times, don't give any of the criminals due process and just hope you don't get anyone innocent, and then change the constitution to run for a second term!
Yeah come on US, just one more private supermax prison and crime will be solved bro, promise bro, just disproportionately deprive one more minority of their freedom and everything will be good bro
Thousands, if not tens of thousands of innocent people were caught up in El Salvador's crackdown on gangs. People were being arrested for dumb shit like having tattoos, standing on the wrong street corner, being friends with/related to gang members...etc.
Those numbers are even crazier when you factor in El Salvador's population, which is around 6 million.
To put it into perspective, last year Bukele bragged about releasing 8000 innocents who were wrongly arrested in his gang war. If you adjust that number to the USA population, that's around half a million people.
It's like Trump bragging about releasing half a million people wrongly arrested over the last few months.
People like to talk about this like it's some kind of achievement when all he did was build a giant prison and throw anyone even slightly shifty into it.
Crime must be punished. Most countries forgot about that.
Yes, rehabilitating criminals, due process, appeals... these are all great concepts. But they are great if they WORK, not if the criminals slip through the cracks, go unpunished, and keep on harming people.
The number 1 goal of the prison system is: When a motherfucker picks up a knife to kill, hurt, rape or otherwise harm someone, he thinks twice because he KNOWS FOR A FACT that he will go behind bars for a very long time.
When that goal is achieved, you can go for other goals, such as rehaiblitating these criminals.
More like paid the gang members (cash and early release for leaders) to force people in poor neighborhoods to vote for him and to reduce violence. He is in the process of extraditing gang leaders and former police who live in the US so they cannot testify against him in the DoJ case being brought because he used USAID money to pay them off. Also I know people who know him IRL (sibling of friend who went to school with him) and homie is a coke head, wife beater who allegedly enjoys the company of man, and is such a douche because he got bullied at the private school he went to.
The 2029 backlash when Bukele gets dragged through the streets of Minecraft and flayed alive in chat will be entirely surprising to like 80% of the people in here
For those not in the known, he's the President of El Salvador. The one who's had an immense crackdown on crime and gangs and, yes, essentially follows the basic strategy of "if commit crime, jail you get", which has so far accomplished exactly what he set out to do.
Mark_Anthony_Giray@reddit
Jailing the criminals, isn't that the norm? Why is everyone so surprised?
Glux_Ygfnhagr@reddit
Should we know who this is
xpacean@reddit
Crypto bro who’s running a country every single 4channer would shit on if he hadn’t arrested everyone who looked like they might be in a gang and put them in a horrific prison. Crime went down, so anyone complaining about the staggering human rights violations is a huge pussy.
Somedude522@reddit
This is pretty obviously a critical view of Bukele but there is also the Singapore argument. Singapore did very similar actions to him and yet is a marvel of the world.
MrPopanz@reddit
By their own metric or where does this come from? Never heard that being said about Singapore before.
I personally would not like to visit there because of the draconic law system, I'm too paranoid for that type of shit, especially on vacation.
Cyb3rEntity@reddit
Lmfao "draconic law". Buddy, they aren't going to imprison you for doing something obscure. Sure, their laws are much more punishing than other countries'. But if you are just a normal, upstanding citizen and you're gonna be fine (as in, don't litter, don't vandal, don't jaywalk, etc.).
I personally visited the place before, and it feels more or less like the average Western-looking city of tourism.
MrPopanz@reddit
They have the fucking death sentence for drug related crimes. This is draconian, no matter how nice it is there otherwise.
Cyb3rEntity@reddit
Then don't do drugs...? Why would you be so scared of that law?
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
Because killing someone of tbey smoke a dimension baggie of weed is ridicious
Cyb3rEntity@reddit
No?? They gave death sentence for drug traffickers, not drug users.
MrPopanz@reddit
Oh sweet summer child.
Cyb3rEntity@reddit
Lmao whatever, be scared. Be a pussy. Don't visit, idc.
MrPopanz@reddit
Imagine being such an infantile child, that you truly believe someone is a pussy for not following the mindset of "if you don't have anything to hide, you should not have an issue with draconic laws".
Maybe think about this topic a bit more before forming an opinion.
Maniactver@reddit
Singapore is like New York, but without the rest of US economy to support it. So yeah, pretty impressive.
Somedude522@reddit
You can look up a lotta stuff about Singapore. It’s a very wealthy nation and more powerful than its much larger neighbors Malaysia and Indonesia. The US is also close friends with it due to their vicinity to China and the fact Singapore is along the strait of Malacca. Seems you are just dissing a country due to your lack of knowledge on it.
MrPopanz@reddit
I'm not dissing singapore by any means, I'm just doubtful about it being "a marvel of the world".
Like theres a large area between awesome and awful, you know?
Harambiz@reddit
They have one of the highest GDP per capita and one of the highest standards of living in world, let alone Asia.
dabswhiledriving@reddit
They also kill people for being drug users. Don't even have to be a dealer
Somedude522@reddit
Technicalllllyyyy they just have a ridiculously low standard for what it means to qualify you as a drug dealer. But yeah that’s a big one. The argument is however it deters any risk of any drug use or sale occurring due to the significant risk of using or distributing. A lot of people would argue drugs even marijuana are enough of a risk of societal disruption that social contract wise people tolerate the extreme penalties for it.
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
This is mostly where the whole human rights abuse argument comes in. This kind of extreme thinking inevitably leads to people being hit way too hard with the law.
dabswhiledriving@reddit
mate, from a user standpoint, weed is about as socially disruptive as me ripping ass after a burrito. no one should be receiving capital punishment just for smoking it
Somedude522@reddit
I agree. But their mentality is a severe deterrent prevents anything else potentially dangerous from also being justified. I personally think their severe aggressiveness on weed besmirches a very fascinating and awesome country but you have to see their mentality of it.
MikeGianella@reddit
They are at the crossroads of the single most profitable trade route in the planet and are a city state with a relatively small population. A very difficult situation to fuck up.
sthegreT@reddit
easy to say now, but you have remember they were an extremely poor backwater area.
hyperxenophiliac@reddit
Lol what a load of bullshit. Egypt sits on the Suez Canal. Wasted all the revenues on lossmaking army owned firms and subsidies so people shut up and keep in line. Panama is a bit more successful but still has a lot of issues (on the verge of losing their investment grade bond rating). A lot of their economy is a money laundering scheme for Colombian cartels (I was literally there last week - that money built a pretty amazing skyline of empty apartment buildings). And plenty of other countries have other gifts like oil wealth etc and don't do dick with it. Singapore is a case study of sound policymaking, probably better than anywhere else on Earth.
LKY's memoirs are worth a read. Dude was obsessed with making Singapore competitive and lucrative for foreign investors. In the early days, before big investors would come, he'd literally drive the route from the airport to whatever hotel they were staying in to make sure it looked good. When local unions started acting up he literally pointed at the UK and was like "Do you want to be like them?". It worked apparently. Plenty of other amazing things to mention: such as forcing the whole population to save 10%+ of their income into a retirement account (so no burdensome social security that's literally the single biggest line item on every western country's budget) and then invested that savings pool into amazing companies like Singapore Airlines. Now they have one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, despite having zero natural resources. Plenty more I could go on about.
OtherUse1685@reddit
Not to mention Singapore is has little to no natural resources. They even have to import fresh water from Malaysia.
Drunkasarous@reddit
Straight of malaka go brrrrrrrr
KebabLife2@reddit
How does right of malacca go?
Legend13CNS@reddit
Believe it or not, rrrrrrrrb
Somedude522@reddit
They were actually pretty poor for a while. You gotta remember they have an incredibly massive nation of Malaysia just to the north of them. Singapore in its early days could have easily been suffocated by Malaysia
SpookyHonky@reddit
Singapore is a marvel of the world in spite of its overly harsh legal system, not because of it.
ABirdJustShatOnMyEye@reddit
“Crime went down” kind of understates the issues they were having prior to his actions. There’s a reason his extremely authoritarian style of leadership was well received by the citizens.
xpacean@reddit
Right, but a real society also asks how “well received” it was by the guys who were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
peaceshot@reddit
Just don’t get gang tattoos then. If you’re cosplaying as a gang member then you can be treated like one.
SnakeCharmer20@reddit
Spend life in jail because you got some tattoos
Amazing logic bro, nothing but proportionate punishments over here 🤦♂️ justice is dead fr
fiftyfourseventeen@reddit
Murder rate went down 98% from 2015. More people would be killed than falsely imprisoned if he hasn't
HillaryApologist@reddit
Why are we counting from 2015 when he became president in 2019? It dropped over 60% from 2015 to 2019, so most of that drop wasn't even him.
And to your second point, if the murder rate stayed at 2019 levels after he came into office (even though, again, it was already dropping), about 7k more people would have died. There are well over 100k people in prison in El Salvador. So I guess you're assuming that his authoritarian government has a 95%+ success rate at only arresting criminals?
mrlesa95@reddit
Its not that difficult, if you have gang tatoos in El Salvador you're definitely in a gang (otherwise you'd be murdered)
They rounded up everyone with gang tatoos.
I know.. crazy
Desert_Aficionado@reddit
origin of the "Believe it or not, jail" meme.
ptjp27@reddit
Poor guys who got the wrong MS13 tattoo on their foreheads at the wrong time.
zerosaved@reddit
They’re idiots. Like actual idiots. They seem physically incapable of grasping the concept that with a dictator like Bukele, once you get picked up, that’s it. It doesn’t matter if you’re innocent, you will not leave prison. They love this because they sit on their fat, shit covered asses in their computer chairs, in a country that actually has, to some degree, a functioning system of lawyers that can defend them in court, should they ever find themselves accused of being a criminal. The very thing they accuse people calling out the human rights violations of doing. The irony is ultimately lost on them and their walnut-sized brains.
SilianRailOnBone@reddit
The issues were resolving before him already, the trend of murder rate going down years before he went into power speaks for itself.
Hyperversum@reddit
I mean, consider that the US already does this and still has a fuckton of gangs.
Mexicans are just built different I guess
I_lie_on_reddit_alot@reddit
El Salvador president who allied with ms13 to give them a monopoly. He arrested all of their competitors and they help him to power.
It had the side affect of dropping murders 90%+ in the country. But you basically just get locked up for being a man that ms13 has real or made up problems with.
He also got a bunch of ms13 leaders who were going to testify against him in the US released from US custody and set free in El Salvador by working with trump.
Reign_AS@reddit
the president of el salvador
Logen10Fingers@reddit
Yes
ByteWhisperer@reddit
Foreign concepts for our Canadian anon. He gets offered euthanasia if he tries to report a crime.
I_lie_on_reddit_alot@reddit
He gave a monopoly to one cartel and arrested members of other cartels lmao.
Dude made a deal with trump to get ms13 gang leaders captured in the US released.
He’s not blindly arresting criminals he’s using his position to help 1 cartel and they also help him.
ApologizingCanadian@reddit
Canadian justice system is catch & release
ihadagoodone@reddit
I prefer due process and rule of law vs what El Salvador is doing.
DynamicMangos@reddit
Yeah exactly. Yes you can cut down crime by locking up everyone left and right, but if you start locking up people who haven't been convicted of a crime it becomes dystopian.
The problem is just that people are too emotionally imature for empathy. They don't care for the MANY MANY people wrongfully imprisoned, because why would they if they are not one of them?
ChadWestPaints@reddit
I mean the flip side of this is that people are only having this reaction because theyre sick of being victimized by criminals and fed up with the government's limp wristed response to this issue. I could just as easily flip your accusation around and say you're too emotionally immature to empathize with these victims who are just desperate to stop being victimized.
darklightmatter@reddit
I'm fine with Draconian law if its proponents are willing to flip a coin on whether or not they're put in prison with the criminals they want to see arrested. In this case, if the victims are okay with rolling the dice on whether or not they're arrested instead of the criminals they report, who am I to say no?
I wonder about the state of humanity if people blatantly display their inability to use their brain properly. Police are obviously corrupt if they're ignoring crime, and you want to give them even more power?
jackshiels@reddit
tfw the poor tattoo-ridden gangbanger gets arrested can we get 10,000 likes???
uRs7up1d@reddit
When has due process achieved those numbers?
AntDracula@reddit
go back
postmortemstardom@reddit
Most of the time it's not even a catch...
Last_Gift3597@reddit
Deadass, the police here are the most useless motherfuckers on Earth. A few examples, and I swear I'm not making this up, there's a known human trafficking operation in my town that's been trafficking indigenous women for literal decades. My friend who lives in a different town has a Ukrainian gang that lives across from him and he see's like twenty different Slavic people enter and leave every week. A coworker told me how her town basically ruled by a biker gang, and that there's a known rapist who camps outside a shoppers drug mart. A bunch of murders in the GTA also go unreported because it would lower property value. It's a fucking circus here.
the_fresh_cucumber@reddit
So you're saying the GTA is basically GTA?
postmortemstardom@reddit
Remember the pig farm ? Canadians should never forget about that pig farm...
ilesmay@reddit
I never learnt, what are you referring to?
postmortemstardom@reddit
Pig farm serial killer
Look it up on YouTube. I can't do the story nor the police inaction any justice here with just writing
hotsp00n@reddit
But the Mounties????
RedditHatesFreedoms@reddit
Meds, now
Dry-Alternative-7152@reddit
Cake day •_•
sdeptnoob1@reddit
I still remember a quote from the rcmp "leave you keys outside your door" to help prevent violence during car theft. https://youtu.be/r8-8gxc7Q_8?si=V9j9zbw1UBRWYQEn
Rustymetal14@reddit
The elites don’t want you to know this, but the cars in canada are free. You can take them home. I have 458 cars.
Afillatedcarbon@reddit
Is the 458th car the Ferrari 458?
Stacemranger@reddit
Car owners hate this one trick...
Stacemranger@reddit
Car owners hate this one trick...
the_fresh_cucumber@reddit
Catch & reward
InstrumentalCore@reddit
The police are fishermen cosplaying.
AbIaZoLUTEMadMaN28@reddit
Yikes. Reporting crime is racist. Another few million immigrants and Canada will finally be safe
I_like_code@reddit
Thanks man. I needed a laugh today.
Rustybuttflaps@reddit
Who is this?
luujs@reddit
President of El Salvador. He’s massively reduced violence in the country, which was previously one of the most dangerous in the world, by arresting anyone remotely suspected of being in a gang without a trial and shoving them all in purpose built ultra max security prisions.
He’s also eroded the democratic nature of El Salvador’s government, but at the same time he’s extremely popular because he’s fixed the gang crisis.
Pros: * Eradicated the gangs * Country is safe and economically improving
Cons: * Is now likely president for life regardless of whether or not he stays popular * Justice system no longer just
The average El Salvadoran (who isn’t in prison) seems happy though
I_am_Reptoid_King@reddit
Shakedown by gangs that will kill your whole family or left alone by the government, for the most part, that is improving the quality of life by every metric?
That's a hard decision to make after years of being terrorized by an incredibly violent international gang.
I'm sure that once everybody gets good and comfortable they will start to push back on him. Much like California and their 3 strikes rule. 3 felonies and its life in prison, not anymore but it was.
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
Problem is if the govebrment thinks you did bad you can get your ass beat and put in jail, and everyone has to deal with it until you serve "your sentence for your crimes"
stone_henge@reddit
Under Bukele the muder rate continued along a declining trend that started years before he became president.
Rustybuttflaps@reddit
Cheers mate.
Damirirv@reddit
President of El Salvador who turned a crime ridden shithole into a decently safe country in LatAm through questionable means albeit.
Gasser0987@reddit
You’re underselling it.
They went from being the country with a homicide rate of 107 per 100k inhabitants, at that time the highest in the world among recognized sovereign states, to just 1.9 per 100k.
They now have the second lowest homicide rate in the Americas, and one of the lowest in the world.
stone_henge@reddit
Bukele was elected years after this peak and the start of its ongoing declining trend.
Mahajangasuchus@reddit
“Questionable means” is also underselling it. They imprisoned like 3% of the population with essentially 0 due process whatsoever. If they just merely suspect you of being gang related for any reason you are tossed into hellhole prisons. It certainly brought down crime rates for now but there are going to be severe ramifications, you can’t just hand power to a dictator, have him lock up 1/30 people, and expect no consequences down the road.
Fishsticksh@reddit
Its easy for people to say its worth it or its wrong when they'll most likely never step foot in the country or talk to anyone from it. Its not really a black and white situation where you can be 100% right in your stance no matter what side youre on.
For the majority of people I'm sure its all been worth it, but imagine being someone who knows their loved one is gone possibly forever because they talked to the wrong person or was just in the wrong spot at some point and are presumed part of a gang. Or being the one imprisoned and having you're one chance at life not just taken from you, but you now must suffer for possibly decades or until your luck/health runs out while being kept in a cage stuffed with gang and cartel members in disgusting conditions knowing you did nothing to deserve it.
wirelesswizard64@reddit
He basically did what Tyrion did in S2 of Game of Thrones lmao
Rastafak1@reddit
In modern liberal democracies we believe that it is better to have 10 guilty people in society, rather than one innocent in prison. But who am I to judge a rich kid born into power who wants to lock up anyone without due process.
fiftyfourseventeen@reddit
Then those 10 guilty people can kill 30 innocents and make your country the murder capital of the world. 30 dead vs one innocent locked up, idk about you but it seems one is clearly worse than the other
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
Better for the system to he inefficent than to ignore things like due orocess for the innocent.
ThatBants@reddit
As long as you are fine being imprisoned for life over a crime you didnt commit because you know the ultimate outcome is beneficial to society, all power to you!
AntDracula@reddit
A teenage redditor who doesn't live there.
SpookyHonky@reddit
You've never criticized a place you don't live in right?
AntDracula@reddit
Go back to home room
Thesleepingjay@reddit
Go back to the bingo hall grandpa.
AntDracula@reddit
Cope
Thesleepingjay@reddit
Ok sure grandpa
AntDracula@reddit
Thesleepingjay@reddit
Yo, I also like Mazda.
AntDracula@reddit
piniepopje@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_a_fair_trial
Tisamon12@reddit
In modern liberal democracies there is significantly lower chance, that those 10 guilty people will be rabid savages ready to torture and kill you and your whole family, just because you looked at then in a wrong way. But who am I to judge a rich kid born into power, who never had to face any violence and is ready to judge everyone from their safe place
EconomistLazy9952@reddit
In modern liberal democracies we believe that it is better to have 10 guilty people in society, rather than 10 guilty in prison.
FTFY
xpacean@reddit
And if some, or a lot, of who knows how many of the guys in there never committed a crime but were just in the wrong place, who cares, right?
fiftyfourseventeen@reddit
It brought the murde rate down 98%. Say what you will, but I think decreasing the murder rate by 98% by falsely imprisoning some people is better than keeping the highest murder rate in the entire world
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
60% of which was done before he took office
SpookyHonky@reddit
Well if they imprisoned everyone in the country they could bring it down 100%. Why not just do that
fiftyfourseventeen@reddit
This is such a non argument to the point where it's baffling you would even type it and press send.
To answer your rhetorical question, it's because then everyone would be in jail. There's a massive difference between a fraction of the population, most of them actually criminals, being imprisoned and sending everyone to jail.
After about a decade, just the reduction in murder rate alone will have saved more lives than the amount of people put into prison. They went from having 6000 murders per year down to 100.
AaXLa@reddit
The problem isn't the first step of mass arrests - it's the second step of rebuilding society after these arrests. Meaning releasing innocent people first (proper due process) reform those for who it's possible and so on and so forth. Would also help if he wasn't hellbent on turning the country into an authoritarian shithole
WeightyToastmaster@reddit
North Korea has ZERO (0) crime! We need to be like the DPRK, authoritarian police states that cut deals with the gangs are actually very good. So you would be ok with being wrongfully imprisoned if that meant the country had less crime? I like having NO due process, we should scrap those pesky search warrants, amendments, and criminal courts. It would allow the police to find the criminals much faster and eliminate all the middle men! I would argue that it may help the police arrest criminals before they do a crime. The Patriot Act should be what we follow. Who cares if the government is spying on everyone?! If it stops ONE terrorist attack then that is a complete success.
Real_Tea_Lover@reddit
have you seen where they keep them? it's literal hell on earth.
Badnerific@reddit
And we could also just lie on our crime rate reporting, there’s no international oversight for that right? Right?
Thinghing@reddit
Soy
deadbabymammal@reddit
innocente
lasercolony@reddit
Right? It’s literally this https://youtu.be/eiyfwZVAzGw?si=0Tt_w8NEWnnVO_5J
Which is a character supposedly satirizing socialism in Venezuela.
lasercolony@reddit
Right? It’s literally this https://youtu.be/iiAWv_5MzhQ?si=OA5CFShIk1YztWCm
Which is supposedly satirizing socialism in Venezuela.
Herzyr@reddit
That's the slippery slope stage no? Give a dude all those powers, the problem is, when its time to step down, will it be a peaceful transition?
BEWMarth@reddit
Turns out people don’t actually mind being the Nazi’s as long as they aren’t the minority in the camps at the time.
Smol-Fren-Boi@reddit
Zort of.
The nazis were not immediately overthrown for the civil liberty stuff brcause of the upsides. People will sacrifice personal freedom if you ensure food and safety.
So the odds are most authoritarian redditors (which isna stupid description from the other guy) are just.. dumb.
Financial_Fishing463@reddit
Those poor criminal minorities, I shed a tear every night thinking about the oppressed MS13 minorities wrongfully imprisoned for rape and murder. It's anudder shoah!
SpookyHonky@reddit
Criminal is when someone is in prison. Congratulations for reaching pre-conventional morality.
Doyoueverjustlikeugh@reddit
Jews are like gang members
Meme_Pope@reddit
In this analogy, are the Jews in the camps avowed cartel members?
MajLoftonHenderson@reddit
I'd imagine that in this analogy the Jews are the tens of thousands of innocent people who are going to spend the next 20 years in a supermax concentration camp because they picked the wrong time to buy plantains from the corner store.
However I would also concede it's not a great analogy. Soviet gulags might be more apt.
BullMoose17@reddit
I'd rather this man rule until he dies than have my street fall into the hands of a criminal organization whose motto is "Kill. Rape. Control"
Captain_Bignose@reddit
Step down? Why when you accomplish what people want and they love you
blueguy211@reddit
you challenge my authority? believe or not jail.
Sangwiny@reddit
Bro made crime illegal and it actually worked.
Joelblaze@reddit
Yeah, yeah, we should all celebrate the reduction of crime through mass arrests that also resulted in thousands of innocents being locked up.
There's absolutely no downsides to giving the state free reign to imprison innocent people when it makes the country safer overall.
None at all.
MrPopanz@reddit
The true learning from this should be to not let things get this bad in the first place.
I'm very curious how this will turn out in the long run.
SaltyChnk@reddit
It won’t last. Right now the peace is held because the gangs gain more from going with the plan, allowing the risk to their drug empires and gaining power in the prisons where they can recruit. Once it’s no longer beneficial, the major gangs will go back to killing eachother and the government will have little power to stop them.
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
In Latin America you can be Mexico or you can be El Salvador with no in between
88sSSSs88@reddit
… what?
BenFoldsFourLoko@reddit
-guy who has heard of two Latin American countries
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
What about Brazil?
BenFoldsFourLoko@reddit
I can bend on Mexico being considered Latin American, I didn't think the guy really had any distinction in his head between Latin or South American, or North America, but I didn't wanna push the point
But can we at least realize that Brazil is not Latin American
69StinkFingaz420@reddit
Latin-language based culture in america. Seems p cut and dry
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
Should I have put an /s
BenFoldsFourLoko@reddit
ah fuck me lol
Big-Pickle5893@reddit
Latin America is Mexico and south
Wantitneeditgetit@reddit
Aren't they African?
FalseTautology@reddit
Try not to be Brazil
BalefulRemedy@reddit
Chile? Argentina?
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
It’s joke friend. It’s not like Columbia or Panama are like either of those countries either. Just saying one is cartel ridden and the other is an authoritarian wet dream.
Myarmhasteeth@reddit
Colombia*
DontBuyMeGoldGiveBTC@reddit
It was a hard choice. It was either this or status quo continuation, with probably as many dead as innocents are jailed now, and more social and economic loss than this caused. However, they doesn't take away from the fact that the massive repression came at the cost of fucking over so many innocent people.
SufficientCalories@reddit
Probably not, honestly. The big issue with any claims that Bukele fixed things is crime dropped quickly long before mass arrests and indefinite detention without trial. Between 2015 and the crackdown, murder dropped by 80%. Then the crackdown happens and crime drops further, but the government was secretly negotiating with the gangs to reduce violence before Bukele, during Bukele's term but before he launched the crackdown, and after the crackdown. Obviously physically removing a bunch of criminals from society will reduce the crime rate, but most of the progress happened before that, and if there are say 5000 innocent men currently held in detention with no real hope of release, then currently more dudes have been kidnapped off the street to be tortured forever by Bukele than murders prevented by the crackdown.
DontBuyMeGoldGiveBTC@reddit
First time I'm reading this theory. And I've read a bit. I'll need to read more cuz I'm skeptical that the numbers were already so massively down before he took over.
HillaryApologist@reddit
How much reading is "a bit?" Because literally googling "crime in El Salvador" and looking at the chart on Wikipedia shows that murder dropped ~65% in the 4 years before Bukele took office, and over 80% if you include the 2 years before he started the crackdown.
DontBuyMeGoldGiveBTC@reddit
I guess I'd simply never thought this would've been a possibility so I didn't check on it. And no, I usually don't find Wikipedia articles interesting. So I just look up a shitton of digital news papers and blogs and consume everything anyone ever has had to say about a topic.
It seems my way of doing things is very fallible and I should include Wikipedia in my investigation routine. Whoopsie?
Thx for the stats.
DragonHollowFire@reddit
Yeah. Its absolutely insane that there is innocent people in a prison like that, with absolutely no way to contact family or anything. The dread and sorrow the must feel makes me sick. That and well being imprisoned with other murderes and extremly harsh and abusive wardens
Hearasongofuranus@reddit
Yeah, I'm willing to bet that this guy will lead the country for decades to come. Probably just a coincidence though.
ZenPyx@reddit
He's likely in bed with the gangs. The US have repeatedly released papers and tried to stop him from negotiating with them - it seems like he is willing to offer certain gangs (mainly MS13) better prison conditions and shorter sentences in exchange for helping him reduce the murder rate (god knows how MS13 plan to lower that).
(https://responsiblestatecraft.org/bukele-trump-gangs/) (https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/allegations-emerge-that-el-salvadors-president-bukele-made-secret-deals-with-gangs/3556460) (https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/from-bad-to-worse-nayib-bukeles-split-with-washington/)
Unfortunately, the overlap between men who crave power like this and men who will do anything to hold onto it is huge.
CicerosMouth@reddit
Those articles dont make any sense. They allege that gangs that basically ran the country agreed to a deal whereby they would give up all of their power and go to jail so that, once in jail, they would have better conditions to other groups.
How does that compute?
Bukele is a dictator, clearly. Also, he unambiguously made El Sallorders of magnitude safer, and it makes no sense to suggest that he was collaborating with gangs. I understand that the leaders of gangs are saying that he did, but occams razor is that they are saying this because they were ruined by Bukele and are trying to tarnish his reputation, IMO.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
The problem lies with you mate. No one cares if you don't understand it. Read more.
You guys can live more comfortable lives with less policing and less severe repercussions if you reduce gang-on-gang infighting, violent domestic crime, and instead focus on the highly profitable manufacture and export of narcotics
What about this deal don't you understand? What about it doesn't make sense to you?
CicerosMouth@reddit
It is undeniable that gang leaders have less power, less control, less safety, and less money now that they did before. These aren't drug cartels. MS-13 is a street gang. Their entire business model comes from shaking down businesses, kidnapping people, prostitution, etc.
Again, Bukele is clearly a dictator. He jails dissidents, doesnt mind that he out innocent people in prison, twists the constitution to personally enrich himself, represses free speech, etc. There are countless horrible things that you can critique him for. Working with the gangs isn't one of them. Frankly that critique is nonsensical.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
Am I talking to some dumb AI set to the dumbest configuration?
It's undeniable that gang leaders have less power even though they're selling more product and making more money than ever?
You pretend "power" is just whatever you decide it is, but for these gang leaders making this lovely deal with the government ensuring that they're 99% less likely to end up in a coffin within a decade, ensuring that they keep more of their money for themselves and their families etc is an insanely obvious indication of their power.
Power can be spent
CicerosMouth@reddit
There is no attack that the uninformed like making more than claiming that the person they are talking to is AI. Not sure why that is. Why do you guys like saying that so much?
How about this: can you provide me with one single source that supports what you are saying? You are so bizarrely confident you must be able to find a dozen sources that will prove that MS-13 is a massive drug cartel and that El Salvador is a large drug trafficking nation, I'm sure all from reputable organizations like BBC, NYT, WAPO, etc. I'll be anxiously waiting for your sources!!!
iLoveFeynman@reddit
https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0519
CicerosMouth@reddit
I am impressed! A reputable source that generally is aligned with your arguments! Much better than the average redditor. Need it be said, I didnt downvote.
That said, it doesn't actually reinforce your points (besides a curious note on MS-13 being associated with drug trafficking, an idea that is not supported by other reports on MS-13).
Specifically, your source doesn't say that El Salvador is known for drugs, that MS-13 hasn't lost power, and most importantly that Bukele only came into power because of deals with MS-13. Rather, it shows that, a few years after Bukele got into power, he had associates give relatively meaningless material benefits (money, cell phones, prostitutes, better prison rooms) to MS-13 in exchange for reduced activity. Again, an example of why he is a bad leader, but nothing near an example of him bartering a government office for gang power.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
I don't care about you or anything you do or anything you say mate.
You're simply wrong.
El Salvador isn't known for importing, exporting, manufacturing drugs in massive quantities?
I'd rather jump off a small bridge, exploding multiple bones in my legs, than continue talking to you.
CicerosMouth@reddit
El Salvador is known as a transit route for drugs coming from South America to the US.
It is equivalent to a gas station stop on a busy highway in New Mexico. It gets business, but no one is getting rich by owning a gas station or running the drug mules for a country.
And El Salvador is poor af (no money there) and they barely manufacture any drugs at all.
That said, I did enjoy your exploding leg bridge jump imagery, lol.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
Damn, sounds insanely lucrative and I wonder if there are any gangs involved in that.
CicerosMouth@reddit
It isn't! Being a drug mule has basically no money.
Also, there is no drug import/export business. It is like saying you have a job working on apparel merchandising for drug cartels, lol. Import/export can be a very lucrative field as you have to arrange for logistics that will abide by various national and international tax/custom laws. Obviously drug cartels dont care about laws, so they don't have import/export people, they have poor AF people that are hired as drug mules to drive trucks loaded down with cocaine through the jungles of central america. Drug mules are cheap labor that gain basically no money, especially as they trudge through countries like El Salvador.
knapalke@reddit
Advice, you are losing this one and insults don't help your case nor make your logic sound. Improve.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
"Losing this one" lololol like that guy can just change documented reality by saying "I don't get it"..
luis-mercado@reddit
Not he is wrong just because you say so. So far you have provided no solid evidence for your argument. Just a vaguely related one.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
An investigation revealing that everything I've said is true is "just vaguely related"?
God you people are smart.
knapalke@reddit
That sarcastic remark is certainly interesting considering:
Assuming what is called "allegation" is something proven true, especially by sources that, while not fully untrustworthy, aren't trustworthy either.
Crooked logic of implying that president gave power to gangs while also, by and large, locking most of their members up and cleaning up the streets of their influence, an outcome which is experienced daily by common people of El Salvador. Considering point 1, even if you decide to fully embrace your belief in any allegation you see, and that Bukele empowered the gangs, there are a lot of logic hoops to get to that conclusion.
Your propensity for trying to get an edge in discussion through using insults to feel like you have an intellectual superiority over the other side. That's not exactly an indicator of a sharp mind, but rather of an infantile, impulsive person that feels like they can't rely on the value of their intellect, so they have to resort to the stuff mentioned above.
Thus I repeat - improve. But I think you will, with age, and this is just a passing period on which you'll look at with contempt in the future.
See ya.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
Mate you already proved yourself to be extremely smart when you called the most related thing imaginable "vaguely related" and you still think I'm going to read a word you say?
That's funny mate. Not reading a word of that.
Goodbye.
knapalke@reddit
Look up the names of who is talking to you, and who writes what.
iLoveFeynman@reddit
You think I care?
SaltyChnk@reddit
No it doesn’t mean they surrender, it means that the gangs stop reduce overt activity like gang wars and kidnappings in exchange for money and power. And reduced sentences for people who are already in prison or might get caught.
Criminal activity hasn’t decreased, in fact drug output is still spiking in El Salvador. The nations drug output has increased since Bukele took power. The murder rate has gone down however. The prisons are also filled than ever before as the government arrests basically anyone they can get their hands on.
Ms13 and barrio 18 are happy to comply since murder and kidnapping is a minor part of these gangs operation compared to the big money maker that is drug trade, in particular cocaine. These deals slow gangs to control prisons and recruit, while reducing the risk to the drug trade, and allowing them to gain influence in government, all for the price of reining in the low level violence and helping promote the government in election season.
RoboticGoose@reddit
How could he be a dictator if it’s the gangs running the country? Or imprison gang members if the gangs ran the country?
My understanding is: the government ran the country about as much as the gangs did (do?). And the negotiations did in fact happen. And it is safer (from gang violence at least). And the Bukele/ the government does all those things you mentioned in the second part of your other comment.
dzh@reddit
It's clearly a bot given how many times he mentioned MS13. Probably aim is to promote that keyword or smth.
ZenPyx@reddit
Dawg why do you think I'm a bot. I'm talking about MS13 because it's recognisable
Hotdogfromparadise@reddit
Did you read any of the sources? The negotiations failed, murders skyrocketed and that’s what led to the mass incarcerations.
RoboticGoose@reddit
Tbf 1. this happened years ago. And 2. we only know about what some investigative journalists uncovered. Is it that much of a stretch to say “he’s likely in bed with the gangs”?
Hotdogfromparadise@reddit
It’s a stretch as well as disingenuous when you take a novel attempt at violence reduction (directly negotiating with the gangs doing the violence) and spin that as evidence of corruption and collusion. Lots of South American countries have tried similar approaches with varying degrees of success.
You’re full of shit basically.
VPackardPersuadedMe@reddit
Get this energy about lowering the murder rate.
Dont_Touch_My_Nachos@reddit
Just when I thought I knew all of the good Simpsons jokes
ptjp27@reddit
You make it sound like a bad thing. Offering gangs better sentences for better behaviour is what you’re SUPPOSED to do.
yummmmmmmmmm@reddit
He's paying them exorbitantly by robbing the govt. When he's late on payments they go on killing sprees, and when he's in good standing they disappear human rights lawyers, independent media, opposition parties, and civil society generally on his behalf
NobodyImportant13@reddit
Yes, keep our rivals in jail and not us and we wont have to murder as many people. #5head
Metrix145@reddit
Still better than what most of the crime infested south America endures. That is if it's true. I wouldn't trust the USA too much considering how much they have to gain if they get him out and instill a puppet head in his place.
tf2coconut@reddit
He's collaborating with the US administration to put random innocent civilians in jail, what do you call that?
HerbLoew@reddit
Standard business between a South American country and the ~~CIA~~ USA
Metrix145@reddit
Ensuring he wont get couped.
cookiesandcreampies@reddit
He is already a puppet head...
Snarkyasfuck@reddit
he has already ruled beyond what the constitution deems legal lol
narkot1k@reddit
We'd probably see even bigger proportions arrested in europe (uk specifically) if these countries actually applied the principles of law and order and not selectively target specific groups of people.
Not saying that el salvadors situation is a good one, but it wouldn't happen if previous government gave two shits about its own country.
dincosire@reddit
Absolutely right, never arrest anyone. Let them all sort it out in the streets. Better they kill each other than let the state risk any mistakes.
Joelblaze@reddit
I feel like the point of law is to find a balance between "never arrest anyone" and "lock up literally every person who is accused of commiting a crime".
Are you willing to spend your life in prison because the system "generally" works?
Or is this just something you assume happens to other people until it happens to you?
Personal-Barber1607@reddit
They had no choice rhe truth is liberal values and human rights are a luxury always have been.
If they can be maintained and even expanded good, but they come also with the responsibility to be a good citzen who acts within the law and asserts the norm of behavior. Without this maintenance of obligations by citizens to act legally and maintain the strength of the law this results in the tyranny of the lawless society.
The maintenance of liberal values degrades either way.
dincosire@reddit
Are you willing to be robbed and murdered because the system isn’t perfect? Or is this just something you assume happens to other people into it happens to you?
I feel like no solution is not always better than an imperfect solution.
Joelblaze@reddit
I can shoot a mugger in the face.
Can't shoot a cop that's having a bad day.
dincosire@reddit
Maybe not in your country but in America you absolutely can use lethal force against tyrannical cops and not go to jail. Now of course the key here is you have to be the one aggressed, not a criminal.
Minecraftitisist69@reddit
womp womp
dincosire@reddit
Oh no, you showed me one case where it didn't work out, that means all the other times where it did suddenly didn't happen! Absolute redditry.
Andrelse@reddit
Show me. Show me all those cases where someone shot a policeman and it ended well for them
dincosire@reddit
Ended well is subjective, but this woman shot back and eventually the charges were dropped. No life in jail. link
Here's one where an off duty cop was killed for B&E. Yes he was off duty, but the fact he was a cop didn’t matter because of Georgia's Stand Your Ground. link
You can look up the rest because my point stands. No matter how difficult it is, it is possible to assert our 2A rights against the police.
Andrelse@reddit
The first person got off really lucky, only with a probably expensive court case. How many people who get raided by police and shoot back just... get shot? After all the police come in with overwhelming firepower and use their guns too, don't they.
And 2nd case doesn't really count, this person was B&E outside of his job
dincosire@reddit
Second one absolutely counts when your standard is “you can't do anything to cops!” If that were true then defending against an off duty cop should have had the dude locked up for life, but instead he wasn't even charged.
Andrelse@reddit
The dude was breaking and entering, not abusing his powers
Muscle_Bitch@reddit
Is there a single case in which someone has killed a police officer lawfully?
It's not something I have ever heard of.
dincosire@reddit
Here Charges were dropped. Now yes, that cop was off duty, but all these other morons frothing at that mouth would have you believe that even giving the stink eye to an off duty cop would get you locked up for life.
Muscle_Bitch@reddit
That's different though. That isn't a cop being killed in the line of duty for acting unlawfully.
This is just an off-duty cop shot by his neighbour for trespassing.
Do you have any examples of a cop, with a uniform and a badge, being killed by someone lawfully?
Minecraftitisist69@reddit
womp womp
TheWonderSnail@reddit
"Texas has the Castle Doctrine, the legal principle that entitles someone to stand their ground in their home if they perceive a deadly threat. That protection evaporates, however, if the person is engaged in illegal activity. Law enforcement allegedly found traces of white powder on Guy's apartment floor, in his car, and in the trash, though the government did not charge him with a drug crime."
How fucking convenient. Its beyond parody
Minecraftitisist69@reddit
They had officer Johnson on the case
CirrusVision20@reddit
You have the right to resist an unlawful arrest, but a) people don't know what an unlawful arrest is, and b) the street is absolutely not where you should be fighting the law. That's how you get killed.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
It's wild how obviously you would have to be to believe something like that. Everyone at every level of government will try to bury you alive if you so much a sneeze on a cop. They will see it as an opportunity to advance their image or career. You'll never get anything resembling a fair trial.
dincosire@reddit
It’s wild that your inability to do a simple google search makes you think that instances where this happened actually didn’t happen. I literally can’t help you when you choose to be ignorant.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Dog, you're a moron.
Daediddles@reddit
Tell me you're not an American without telling me.
dincosire@reddit
You realize you are on the internet right? You can literally google all the cases where Americans have killed cops in self-defense and gotten off yet you choose to remain ignorant. Take your Eurotrash elsewhere.
I_am_Reptoid_King@reddit
We're not talking about people doing low-level crime. We're talking about an entrenched, multifaceted criminal enterprise that terrorized the civilian population and to an extent the government too. Then spread internationally. I assume you don't know what American law enforcement and politicians did to break the mob and all the insanity that happened during prohibition in the United States. Do you know what RICO is? If you can charge one person with a felony then you can charge all kinds of known associates with a felony.
Reguard talking about shooting muggers. Them bad hombres would kill you and your family with a machete for talking shit.
Keep telling us you know nothing without saying you know nothing.
CombinationCrazy1719@reddit
Jokes on you, I have already been robbed and I still don't want innocent people to be put in jail.
dincosire@reddit
Yeah but you haven't been murdered have you? Speaking personally I'd take life in jail over being murdered but that's just me I guess.
ErB17@reddit
Your argument against President Nayib Bukele's policies is a luxury of peacetime, applied incorrectly to a nation that was effectively at war. You talk about finding a "balance," but the old balance was a society held hostage, where thousands of innocents were guaranteed to die at the hands of gangs.
The question isn't whether you'd risk being wrongly imprisoned in a system that "generally works." The real question, which Salvadorans faced daily, was whether you'd risk a slightly flawed justice system for a chance to not get murdered on your way to work. It worked out exceptionally.
Quadraple_Bypass@reddit
Wrongfully imprisoning hundreds if not thousands for life in maximum security is not just "slightly" flawed, but yeah.
rkiive@reddit
Yes ideally. But that's very easy to say from a safe country with a low crime rate where letting a few criminals go is preferable to eroding our freedoms and catching innocents. Those few criminals aren't likely to cause a detriment on your life but erosion of freedoms will.
For a system to be improved on, you need to have one in place and you need control. You don't have the luxury to 'find' the balance when gangs are running the country.
Hundreds of Innocent people were being murdered every month in El Salvador already. That's down to single digits now.
Now that its under control, you can find balance and improve the situation.
CicerosMouth@reddit
I appreciate the sincere morality of your comments.
They also fly directly counter to the reality of a country like El Salvador, which was, in a very real sense, ran by gangs prior to Bukele.
Put differently, before Bukele those in El Salvador had neither a rule of law nor a realistic expectation of not being murdered. Now they dont have a rule of law but they do have a realistic expectation of not being murdered. Objectively that is improvement.
We can both call for Bukele to do better by a people, and also acknowledge that the country has made massive strides for the better during his time as dictator.
TheWonderSnail@reddit
That only happens in foreign countries. Its not like here in the USA where a single unnamed informant can accuse you of being in MS13 and that is grounds to get you sent to a foreign jail without trial... wait
Mallyveil@reddit
Surely there’s a third option between ‘arrest no one’ and ‘arrest every one’
dincosire@reddit
Sure. But acknowledging the benefits of the former over the latter is not an implicit endorsement of the rights violations of the former.
project571@reddit
I'm sorry, but are you really gonna sit here like a jackass and ignore the fact that the comment you responded to that kicked off this whole thing wasn't just criticizing how extreme the arrests are? He is saying that arresting so many people that tons of innocents get caught in the middle shouldn't be celebrated and your immediate response was to rubber band all the way to "WeLl I gUeSs We JuSt ShOuLdN't ArReSt AnYoNe?!?!"
Like obviously that person agrees criminals should be arrested, but they said that allowing the government to imprison innocents whenever they want is a problem. For some reason you keep treating it as if the options are massively over arresting and not arresting anyone. So when you start arguing with people as if the only option is to keep doing what they are doing, it actually does come across as implicit endorsement because you aren't accepting criticism to the situation.
dincosire@reddit
The original comment wasn't celebrating innocent people being arrested. Just like you can assume the other guy is in favor of criminals being arrested, it's just as reasonable to assume the first commenter wasn't in favor of innocent people being arrested. Don't be dense.
project571@reddit
The post is the one celebrating it. The post is literally a bunch of people going "omg how did he do it?!?!?"
I'm saying your comments are being viewed poorly because for some reason you are assuming an all or nothing just to argue with people. You then have comments like the one I responded to where you acknowledge it isn't all or nothing. You then have more comments arguing as if it is all or nothing. I'm telling you to make up your mind because you look schizo right now.
Harambiz@reddit
There is, but it’s far to slow and costly to actually work. El Salvador is finally a safe country, which has literally never happened before.
Personal-Barber1607@reddit
So what the murder rate was at the point that a liberal society can’t even exist you have no conception of the true horror that was El Salvador. 🇸🇻
The liberal society is built on the monopolistic control of force by the state and the submission of the use of force by the individual to the state. Without this cornerstone of democracy/liberal society you are left with privatized violence and gangs and a inliberal dangerous society.
The government suspending right to assert its foundation of monopolistic control of force is the only way forward for El Salvador
LEERROOOOYYYYY@reddit
The only people who dislike El Salvadors crackdown on gang crime are white middle-class american redditors haha
Joelblaze@reddit
The only people who don't like the stability of North Korea are westerners who hate communism.
LEERROOOOYYYYY@reddit
This is so fuckin stupid dude haha I don't even know where to start
Marik-X-Bakura@reddit
A healthy justice system doesn’t jail people just because they’re suspected of something
LEERROOOOYYYYY@reddit
Damn somebody better go and release P Diddy
SpookyHonky@reddit
That's a pretty healthy burden of proof. Definitely not North Korea behaviour
SizzlingPancake@reddit
seems you lack the brain function to be able to connect those two ideas.
Azurmuth@reddit
Or people who dislike the human rights violations and crimes against humanity happening in El Salvador.
indiefolkfan@reddit
A lot of El Salvadorians seem pretty happy about the results from what I've heard. Even if they don't necessarily agree with the means.
Bezray@reddit
I think gangs are bad and arresting innocent people is bad can we not find a middle ground
Mr_Swaggosaurus@reddit
Maybe the innocent people in prison don't like El Salvadors crackdown on gang crime as well haha
West_Set@reddit
This exact comment but without any sarcasm at all
the_fresh_cucumber@reddit
They went from 4 to 2. It's progress but they need to work towards 1.
I don't understand the argument to go back to 4
Supersquare04@reddit
“Better 1000 innocent men are locked up than 1 guilty man go free” - Dwight Schrute
stop_talking_you@reddit
this is a trolley problem so youre okay with hurting thousands (criminals attacking innocent) instead of hurting a few (innocents in jail).
DeDaveyDave@reddit
Innocent or not yet charged as guilty?
rkiive@reddit
Us people in developed countries see human rights abuses like this and deem it unacceptable because we have a level of QOL that the erosion of freedoms are more damaging than letting a few criminals potentially go free. The juice isn't worth the squeeze so to speak.
In places like El Salvador, where you legitimately would have friends and schoolmates murdered on a consistent basis, nothing is more damaging than that. Yes innocent people will always get caught up in sweeping mass arrests and yes that is a tragedy, but how many innocent people were dying every day to the rampant unpoliced crime? Do they not count? Or do you only care about innocents when its an excuse to do nothing.
This is why the people in these countries support this stuff. Same with the Philippines.
Its very easy to sit there from a privileged country and sit on your high horse.
For a system to be incrementally improved on, there has to be some semblance of a functioning system in place. El Salvador did not have that. It needed to do something drastic to establish a system, which i can then work on improving.
ComancheViper@reddit
Exactly. Same thing with the Medellín Cartel and ISIS. Lots of extrajudicial killings and torture happened to suspected and actual members but it was needed because these organizations were tearing their respective countries apart. It’s a necessary evil.
turtlesooup@reddit
Funny how everyone I met at the pen were inocent. I felt like I was the only one doing the time for my crime. Nah, fuck all that. No one is innocent.
thebestintheworld316@reddit
Talking about it, the other day I read a news where it said that there were suspicions that El Salvador president bukele got in to power thanks to the help of some gangs, the reportes covering this news was an independent newspaper (don’t recall the name) in which the reporters where persecuted with false charges and put into jail, some got out of the country
Taaargus@reddit
Also just conveniently leaving out the part where he's actively colluding with the gangs and paying them off to "keep crime down".
Hurk_Burlap@reddit
Its okay bro theyre all gang members bro, gang members dont even deserve a trial they arent human just lock up all the gang members bro
SpartanGoat777@reddit
It’s been so insane watching people celebrate this guy. Yeah man, when you arrest millions of innocent people you’re gonna happen to catch some criminals
rkiive@reddit
This is such a braindead take lol.
There's a reason he's popular in the country.
Sometimes necessary evils are required to prevent greater evils.
Hundreds of innocent people were murdered every single month. Thats now single digits.
SpartanGoat777@reddit
Oh yeah man it’s awesome until its you. But no go ahead let’s put you in those el Salvadoran jails and see how you feel about him then
rkiive@reddit
With that reading comprehension you must be American.
Obviously its awful for the innocent who get caught up in it.
I reckon there's a pretty good chance it was awful potentially being murdered on the way to work every day too.
SpartanGoat777@reddit
And it seems like you only care about innocent people when it’s an excuse to empower a dictator. But let’s do some math to see which is worse. Incarceration in El Salvador’s prisons is 1659 per 100,000 people, while the homicide rate at its absolute peak 4 years before the election of Bukele (it steadily fell in the other four years proceeding his election but I will be as charitable as possible) even if we assume that 9/10 people in the prisons are actual gang members, it STILL leads to the suffering of more people to follow his crackdown policy.
rkiive@reddit
Nice try. Why on earth would I have a vested interest in empowering a dictator in a country I don't live in and has no relevance on my life.
I can just understand the reality that letting perfect be the enemy of good can leave you with an outcome that is worse.
Now that the situation is under control and it is actually a safe place rather than the literal murder capital of the world, you can have a bit of nuance and fix the underlying problems.
But you have to get there to do that. There's no point working on your sugar intake while you bleed out from a headwound.
SpartanGoat777@reddit
So again from the above numbers demonstrably more suffering is inflicted by the state in this scenario than before Bukele. If you still cannot see why you are wrong then there is no point arguing with you
Wantitneeditgetit@reddit
Americans will think that's low.
Hotdogfromparadise@reddit
The downsides which are heavily outweighed by bringing two of the country’s largest gangs to heel and bringing the murder rate down to its lowest in decades.
Something tells me the local populace won’t give much of a shit
yadius@reddit
The unique thing about gangs like MS13 is that they literally tattoo their gang affiliation onto their skin.
Imagine if we decided to criminalize Nazism, and discovered that all the Nazis had Swastika tattoos. How many innocent (not a Nazi) members of the public have a Swastika tattoo?
RedditHatesFreedoms@reddit
Despite being only 3% of the population….
Boollish@reddit
There's also a lot of intelligence that the crime rate is tanking because of gang involvement.
In other words, gangs can do whatever they want as long as they keep violence off the streets.
CNALT@reddit
I will not deny that Bukele is a dictator, because he very much is with his curbs of the people’s rights. However, I’ve seen a lot of El Salvadorans say that this is the best thing that’s ever happened to them. That they can walk the streets at night. That gang violence and culture has been practically completely eradicated, something no administration before has ever done.
He made a promise, and looking at his prior political career, he kept it. Unfortunate that he had to become a dictator after, but he was quite a good civil servant before his time in office.
theyeshman@reddit
I wonder what innocent El Salvadorans in CECOT would say
Unfortunate the Bukele regime won't let anyone interview them I guess
Joelblaze@reddit
Ever since the government started mass arresting people, it's become incredibly hard to find anyone who doesn't approve of the government's actions.
What an incredible turn of events.
CNALT@reddit
Like I said, I won’t deny he’s unfortunately becoming a dictator.
It’s very sad considering his impressive and democratic political career beforehand.
postmortemstardom@reddit
Not to mention a few "dissidents" were locked up as well. That never goes wrong 👌
FalseTautology@reddit
Lol a few
postmortemstardom@reddit
Off to gulag you go...
Sorry that's outdated.
Off to cecot you go
crocodilepickle@reddit
falkodalko@reddit
how can i gain such wise insight as yours?
buy_tacos@reddit
US been locking up people at record setting rates for decades and our crime hasn't seen that kind of drop. He doing it right gang.
Joelblaze@reddit
The incarceration rate in the US has been declining since the 90s and violent crime has still been cut in half since then as well.
You can actually reduce crime without suspending due process, interestingly enough.
buy_tacos@reddit
Yet we still have more prisoners than any other country. US is 4% of the worlds population yet has 20% of the prisoners. I'm sure the fact we specifically wrote in a clause for prisoners to be enslaved has nothing to do with that though.
Also crime rate has fallen since the 90s but is still double what it was in the 60s.
Broly30@reddit
2OptionsIsNotChoice@reddit
Some innocents got locked up, how many hundreds of thousands more will not by victimized as a result.
Innocent people will ALWAYS feel the burden of crime the worst, they are the victims and regardless of the system used they will also get caught in the crossfire. Deciding to let innocents be victimized because you are too much of a bitch to actually deal with criminals just means you shouldn't be in a position of power/position to be responsible for dealing with crime.
Joelblaze@reddit
You know, the people who make the argument that we should just be okay with jailing innocent people don't tend to be responding from a prison cell.
But I'm sure you're totally willing to spend your life in prison if it means people won't be victimized by the actual guilty people who also go down.
ChadWestPaints@reddit
But youre okay with jailing innocent people. So am i - we all are. Having a criminal justice system at all necessitates jailing innocent people, not just because we need to detain people while we try to figure out if theyre guilty, but also because or corruption and simple human error that are inseparable part of all systems built and run by humans.
The system before also jailed innocent people; the system now still jails innocent people AND the country is finally safe for the average citizen for the first time in living memory. Which would you prefer?
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
-Benjamin Franklin.
2OptionsIsNotChoice@reddit
"Please don't. Stop. I'm scared."
The last words of Angela Wrightson as she was beaten and tortured to death by known criminals who were repeatedly in and out of the system. I think my quote might just hold more emotional weight, than some highminded ideals that mere peasants like me could ever truly understand.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Why don't you lead by example and turn yourself in? You are a potential criminal!! Do the right thing!!
2OptionsIsNotChoice@reddit
You know what though, thinking about it more... sure fuck it lets do it.
I'll sit in solitary confinement for the rest of my life if it means that ANYONE who physically harms or kills someone with malice aforethought is treated equally to myself. I'm willing to be the matyr and do this so long as the criminal justice system/society holds up their end of the bargin.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Talk to a therapist, it can't hurt.
2OptionsIsNotChoice@reddit
How about we keep criminals out of society and actively strive to protect victims? If you think I need therapy for wanting that, fuck off and maybe get some help yourself.
2OptionsIsNotChoice@reddit
Potential criminal and actual criminal are very different things.
I'm more interested in the 3pete criminals being locked away for good executed, and/or holding judges liable for the damages known criminals they release later cause.
I am not suggesting we prosecute people for thought crime, create new crimes, etc.
frogman320@reddit
So you're super worried about protecting innocent people but you have no problem throwing them in a box full of criminals? Doesn't make sense bro
Harambiz@reddit
Homicide rate dropped 98% since this guy was elected….
AaronsAaAardvarks@reddit
You might be a criminal so let's throw you into prison. Yes, you might be raped. Yes, you might be murdered. But there's a chance it'll make the world a safer place.
ComancheViper@reddit
It’s called a necessary evil in response to even greater evils. The Nazis, Medellín Cartel, countless communist militias, and ISIS weren’t destroyed by yielding to all conventions of human rights and due process. Drastic measures were needed and some toes had to be stepped on along the way. Cry more.
CMGwameA@reddit
Fucking redditors …
SabunFC@reddit
In a country with so much crime, it makes sense if 3% of the men were involved with crime.
ICantRemember33@reddit
great, now there is more woman for the rest
9172019999@reddit
It's fucked yes but letting your country get that bad it must be done. You can't fix a problem like that without some people getting hurt in the process. I'd rather my streets be safe and a few innocent locked up than hundreds dying because no one had the stomach to do what's right. I would gladly give up my life for my country to become safer. If my accidental lock up meant 40 actual criminals were too I'd at least die knowing I served my part in saving my country.
DiscipleOfDIO@reddit
They’re all getting a fair trial, the innocent ones are getting released. What’s the problem?
PonchoSham@reddit
Go spend an undetermined amount of time in jail and tell me if you feel the same way after.
DiscipleOfDIO@reddit
When they release me after that undetermined amount of time, I’ll step out onto the streets, right? I’d rather those streets be safe to walk down.
PonchoSham@reddit
They already are. You’re telling on yourself as someone who doesn’t go outside much. Your worldview is shaped by sensationalized news.
derp0815@reddit
You wouldn't happen to have a dictionary on you by any chance?
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
I think every society has at least 3% that need to be locked up or in other ways kept away from society.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Not to mention murder rates were already falling dramatically before he won the election.
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
The percentage will drop over time since they can’t reproduce.
MarcosInu@reddit
Leftist found, opinion ignored
Drago_727@reddit
It's nowhere near perfect, but he turned a truly awful place to live in into a somewhat livable one in record time, and that's pretty respectable.
Ruby2312@reddit
Give it a few year and the dumbass gonna learn why peoples dont do that, even fucking dark ages noble dont take all from peasants at once and these morons are doing what even the inbreds try not to do
Bill_Murrie@reddit
This but unironically
No_Mammoth_4945@reddit
People love jerking off to police states more than I could’ve ever imagined lol
SaltyFlavors@reddit
Big deal
hundenkattenglassen@reddit
Just like in Sweden where it’s forbidden by law to be a criminal! (Or maybe it’s legal idfk the way things are going.)
SpaceMarine_CR@reddit
My simple mind cannot comprehend such complicated concept
SaltyChnk@reddit
Bukele is a dictator the short term benefits of cutting deals with gangs in exchange for political power and influence is going to snap back hard when the gangs feel there isn’t any benefit to playing along.
If you think this method of new, you haven’t been paying attention to South America.
unkrawinkelcanny@reddit
Concentration camps yay
WeightyToastmaster@reddit
Exactly, these people who love this guy would literally support the nazis. I could start posting facts about the German economy, military strength, low unemployment, inflation, and so many other metrics and these guys would eat that shit up and say that it is a remarkable turnaround and whoever led that turnaround is amazing, but then you say that’s Adolf Hitler and the Nazis and all of a sudden they change their tune and say that “oh well that’s different” OR they will bring up the human rights atrocities. These people are so easy to throw human rights out the window if the “bad people” have an easy label slapped onto them like “Gang Member” or “Terrorist.” These guys also hate the Patriot Act and mass government surveillance because it infringes on their human rights and constitutional rights.
Advanced12@reddit
Damn! This Hitler guy, really lives rent free in some people’s mind. It’s like an obsession.
Is Hitler in charge of Russia and North Korea, as well? Or we just go with “everything I don’t like is Hitler”?
People “support” this guy, because for now.. it was the only one who decided to take care of cartel mafia type, in his country.
Funny of you, to think of human rights, when you live miles away from any sort of danger. I bet, 100%, if you were in the shoes of an el salvador family, you will vote for this guy, with both hands.
Some innocent people are getting caught in this problem, and it’s really hard to fight fair, when your enemy has power. Go on, you are free to give a solution in fixing the crime rates there.
Attack_Helecopter1@reddit
You can be critical of the guy, but do keep in mind that El Salvador had one of the highest murder rates on the planet and has became one of the safest countries in North America.
Literally everything was controlled by the gangs, and they would even recruit kids coming out of their schools and force them to kill their family members to prove loyalty. The people there are happier with him in charge, however it is an exception regime of sorts, because it's better than before but not perfect.
Meme_Pope@reddit
As a fan of human rights, it’s hard to argue against a literal 99% reduction in crime.
Deep90@reddit
Human rights violations are also crimes.
ptjp27@reddit
Yes that’s why they threw all those human rights violating cartel members in prison.
piniepopje@reddit
right to a fair trial is a human right, but it seems like yours not actually interested in human rights
ptjp27@reddit
I don’t think the cartels were giving people fair trials before recreationally beheading them.
Deep90@reddit
Cool, now throw him in there as well.
ptjp27@reddit
Eh wouldn’t even be in the worst 100 current world leaders who deserve to be in prison.
Deep90@reddit
I'm open to the idea of filling 100 cells.
joevarny@reddit
I hear nuking cities ends all crime in the blast radius.
Fryndlz@reddit
Singapore proves not every regime is bad. Sometimes you have to force people into things that are good for them.
GamerGriffin548@reddit
Theres no actual proof of that. The only few reports of an incident like that is hardly related to cartels.
Legiyon54@reddit
Hard to argue with the approval rating
R3quiemdream@reddit
Jail everyone wearing a tattoo. Sure, maybe some innocents get caught up. Sure, maybe due process is circumvented and power is concentrated to the presidency. Sure, maybe you gotta get in bed with MS-13. The ends justify the means tho! Now El Salvador is safe :)
Now we just gotta do this pesky transition of power. Surely this will work forever and no one will abuse total power.
Muppig@reddit
Definitely the cannon-loaded-with-grapeshot equivalent to law and order.
He's popular now but I bet that popularity will wain over time, and he's absolutely not gonna let go of that power. Those jails are gonna be filling up with political dissidents who suddenly became gang members overnight, if they aren't already.
trustmebuddy@reddit
Not accepting points from an illiterate.
Muppig@reddit
I'm sory you fel that whey.
303x@reddit
still a better policy than shoot and kill anyone who is half a shade darker than me
R3quiemdream@reddit
What if i told you, they also target shades darker than you prietito
2Rome4Carthage@reddit
Is it better to have 1% of population falsely imprisoned, or have whole society turn to crime ridden shithole? I know what i would vote for. Only real issue i have with him and his system is that the prison is too harsh. You WILL falsely imprison someone, and because of that, prison should be humane, unless you have proof someone actually killed someone or smuggled drugs, then its work camps for them. But if someone is in a gang (allegedly) they should go into humane prisons.
Thats it.
BigHatPat@reddit
question though: would you be a part of that society or if you knew you’d be one of the 1% falsely imprisoned?
2Rome4Carthage@reddit
Yes, if by falsely imprisoned means i joined a gang but didnt actually do anything wrong. Or if i was a brother to a gang member but i never reported him or at least distanced myself as much as possible.
If i was a random innocent person, i wouldnt get falsely imprisoned.
You are going to the extreme thats unrealistic
k3rstman1@reddit
If i was a random innocent person, i wouldnt get falsely imprisoned.
That's litteraly the problem everyone is talking about
VALERock@reddit
That's a very naive view of dictatorships.
"It couldn't be me, I'm not a criminal/dissident/Jew" said many in the Gulags, concentration camps etc
fricti@reddit
you’re arguing that it’s unrealistic that a random innocent could get swept up into false imprisonment? that literally happens in places that aren’t mass imprisoning nearly everyone with a tattoo, so i think calling it unrealistic is goofy.
they literally raided places. wrong place at the wrong time? believe it or not, jail.
BigHatPat@reddit
here’s a report from the state depart, but plenty of countries and NGOs have reports of people being arrested for basically no reason
here’s a HRW article with a witness claiming police told her they could arrest whoever they want
BlobvisLaurens@reddit
Quick question - would you go into one of those humane prisons if the trade off was reduced crime?
2Rome4Carthage@reddit
Uhm, i never got near a gang, i never stole anything, i never cheated, i never used drugs, why would i even be considered for prison?
If i ever did those things, sure.
You`re conflating 1% of falsely imprisoned guys with innocent everyday people.
Imagine police raiding criminal hideout and they arrest 50 people. There are bound to be some people that just joined the gang and havent actually done anything wrong. They would go into humane prison because they were gang afiliated but no actual evidence of crimes commited. A person living next door to the hideout wouldnt be arrested.
SnakeCharmer20@reddit
This whole interaction 🤣
Who wants to let the government put innocent people in jail?
🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️🙋♂️
Who wants to be the innocent person in jail?
🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️🙍♂️
BlobvisLaurens@reddit
Look, you yourself say they haven't done anything wrong. Wouldn't that mean that they are in fact innocent people going to prison?
Soleil06@reddit
Surely they would never go after me is the mentality that has gotten a lot of people imprisoned.
Louisepicsmith@reddit
They were rounding up people just for having tattoos, they could give any reason to put you in there.
mamf60@reddit
In salvador, most gang members have tattos of their gang, he sent to jail anybodye with gang tattos, even if they had nog commit a crime.
Its far from perfect
NowaVision@reddit
Couldn't he just make it illegal to be a gang member to legally arrest them?
Meme_Pope@reddit
Makes it way easier when all your violent criminals put permanent marks on themselves to be easily identified
NowaVision@reddit
Yeah, are gang members stupid? They could just have stopped with tattoos at some point.
Neo_FOVoid@reddit
Man I never get how people can’t understand a simple concept. Some policies work in some countries and don’t work in others. This clearly and unarguably worked in El Salvador. If we left the problem of El Salvador to Reddit for a solution the country would burn down in two weeks.
This type of solution wouldn’t work in America or Canada but it very clearly has in El Salvador.
Is it perfect? Of course not. Is it the best solution they have ever had and worked far better than anything suggested? Yes.
scoots-mcgoot@reddit
He worked with The Cartels imo I think that helped
InfamousBurns@reddit
Arrest everyone and anyone! What could go wrong?
flx-cvz@reddit
% of population imprisoned - 1.7%
2021 to 2022 homicide drop - 56%
2022 to 2023 homicide drop - 69%
Overall 2015 to 2024 homicide drop - 98%
Literally speak to someone from El Salvador, they stopped living in fear of the gangs. It's easy to le Reddit arm-chair criticize measures when you're not in fear of being murdered for walking to school.
JamesHenry627@reddit
You're on r/greentext you ain't gonna find the cream of the crop here
Xaitor119@reddit
Nah, the average American Redditor loves to have the high moral high ground. Since they don't know the fear of not even being able to walk out at night or going to the supermarket and seeing the prices with double the prices, they can't actually relate to the average citizen there.
ptjp27@reddit
Weird how I didn’t see the same Redditors complaining about the cartels violating the human rights of the people of El Salvador.
ethanlan@reddit
Liberal here fuck the gangs in el salvador
JamesHenry627@reddit
They wouldn't have gotten their supply of gore vids to gawk at if they wanted to do something about it.
ptjp27@reddit
There’s always Brazil and Mexico in a pinch
fateofmorality@reddit
Going to the Supermarket? Try crossing the street pass 7PM. My buddy from El Salvador said if you did that and aren’t affiliated with the gang they’d kill you
Giraff3sAreFake@reddit
El Salvador was literally a goddamn war zone before this.
I would put in on par with South Sudan in terms of the avg citizen fear
Gasser0987@reddit
Reddit in general isn’t the brightest bunch.
Able_Caregiver8067@reddit
Speak for yourself i also watch Rick and Morty
wolphak@reddit
Yea but green text is especially neutered.
iiOhama@reddit
Ties to the orange man = bad
Giraff3sAreFake@reddit
This place used to be good, basically just an extension of r/4chan, but now it's just like the rest of reddit
dzh@reddit
I'd argue r/greentext is above average redditor fembot
ethanlan@reddit
Im cool with it el Salvatore was in a crisis BUT there's no need for this in the USA in anywhere outside Louisiana lol
PartyClock@reddit
We actually have a lot of Salvadorian people here in Canada. Many I've met will die before they go back even now
JustDontBeFat_GodDam@reddit
Surprise surprise, you scare the criminals away and the crime rate goes up in their new country and down in their old country.
flx-cvz@reddit
Doesn't surprise me with what they probably had to live through.
My partner's work is based on government documentation for refugees and has had to interview a lot of people to see if they qualify for US based refugee attention.
The amount of murder and rape is staggering. So many stories sound like fiction.
One guy said his kid was playing soccer on a field when two rival gangs started disputing their turf right then and there, resulting in somekids murdered in the cross fire. A woman said she and her kid had been repeatedly raped when they couldn't pay a fee to the gang that controlled the area their jewelry store was.
The worst part is that even if they qualify there are just not enough spaces, so a lot of them have to stay in Mexico. As immigrants they cannot apply for work because they would lose the opportunity to apply as refugees to the US. And if the Mexican government gets a hold of them they'll get sent back to the south of Mexico and will have to walk to the US again.
No one really stays on that position long and there's mandatory therapy to manage the workload. The government has to make sure they're not lying so they basically make them relive their trauma as they get interviewed. It's too cruel.
bardfaust@reddit
stopped reading
ResponsibleWin1765@reddit
Crime rate also drops to 0% if you kill every person in your country. That doesn't mean it's a good measure.
Instead of fighting the symptoms, we should be focusing on fighting the causes (i.e., inequality, poverty, Lack of opportunity, etc.)
The reason why there aren't as many criminals in many European countries for example is because they offer much better social safety nets which won't let you get to a point where you need to steal food and medicine to survive. It's not that crazy that pretty much every area of high crime is one with more poverty, more inequality, less education, less access to social services, and so on)
Xaitor119@reddit
True! Sadly, it is kinda impossible to do that when most government parties are corrupt, and you only have 3 years to prove that you can actually make the country a better place.
ResponsibleWin1765@reddit
Yeah, it looks a lot better in the short-term statistics to just deport or lock up everyone. But then you have voters like the gentlemen in this thread who vote for exactly that.
Xaitor119@reddit
I don't understand what you mean that comment. The best thing to do, when you can't do much, is do a short-term solution that works great and then try your best, if you are re-elected, to do a long-term solution in your second mandate.
In this particular case, he basically became a dictator, so he will have a long time in power. Let's see what he does as a long-term solution.
ResponsibleWin1765@reddit
I mean that a lot of politicians don't care about making the country better and instead focus on how to get elected again.
radishronin@reddit
You don’t tell somebody to stop drinking soda while they’re having a heart attack.
ResponsibleWin1765@reddit
?
Nulgarian@reddit
Fighting inequality and implementing safety nets are great ideals, but there are far more immediate problems that need to be fixed. When you’re scared of getting murdered whenever you leave your house, you’re not going to give a single shit about inequality or free healthcare, you just want to be able to walk to the market without fear of violence
Hence the soda and heart attack analogy. If someone is having a heart attack, you don’t tell them to hit the gym, make healthier choices, and eat less saturated fat. You focus on fixing the immediate, pressing problem, and than you can work on addressing the underlying causes
iLaysChipz@reddit
It's an analogy to illustrate that in extreme situations, you need to address the immediate concern first before you can begin treating the causes.
For example, if someone who drank a lot of soda daily suddenly started having a heart attack, then you need to save them from the heart attack first before doing anything else. It would be great if they didn't drink soda everyday, and maybe that's something they can work on if they survive, but right now what matters is saving them from cardiac arrest.
Same deal with El Salvador. It would be great if the circumstances leading to extreme wealth inequality weren't there in the first place, as that would've had a significant impact on crime rates. But when the rate of homicide is so high, you need to manage the symptoms first before you even think about alleviating the cause.
HillaryApologist@reddit
Why do authoritarian coomers in this thread keep bringing up 2015 when Bukele took office in 2019? Homicide dropped over 60% from 2015 to 2019, so most of that drop literally couldn't have been from him lol. You're disproving your own point.
AlxIp@reddit
I am not denying that mass arrest stop crime. And it is also well reported and established that due process wasn't followed and someone that shouldn't be in there are in there. Two things can be true
onarainyafternoon@reddit
My problem with him isn't what he did to the gangs, it's all the other shit he has done to become an autocrat. Like dismantling democratic institutions and going after political opponents/opposition. He could do all the shit against gangs while also not engaging in the full autocratic bouquet of terrible behaviors.
InfamousBurns@reddit
Imagine this happened where you are, amazing right? Yep until it's a bunch of masked men from the government at YOUR door dragging you out of YOUR home. No doubt that this fella has had an impact on the homicide rate but the amount of accusations of false arrests and evidence of false arrests is too much to just ignore.
"Literally speak to someone from El Salvador, they stopped living in fear of the gangs. It's easy to le Reddit arm-chair criticize measures when you're not in fear of being murdered for walking to school."
Like you've spoken to anyone from El Salvador, get a grip.
rkiive@reddit
Yes of course you don't want it to happen to you lol.
But I imagine you also don't want to be murdered on the way to work either.
flx-cvz@reddit
Don't get gang tattoos, moron. Like you'd even believe me if I told you what I know.
You'd rather people keep dying and getting raped in much MUCH greater numbers because the poor innocent civilians that were falsely accused of being in a gang because of their affiliations and tattoos have been arrested. Fuck them and fuck your holier than thou moral superiority.
lukamic@reddit
We've all seen how well the "gang tattoos" argument played put in the US as of late. The same exact thing happens in El Salvador
flx-cvz@reddit
It's very hard to fight the stereotype that americans live in their own bubble when y'all keep comparing the US with a 3rd world country.
You've never lived anything similar to their situation.
You have a paper cut and criticize someone's torniquet because they're gonna lose a limb.
Go on, provide your solutions to fix the root causes of their systemic problems.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
With active policing, a 98% drop over 10 years is good, but it's not spectacular. Myrtle Beach saw a 58% drop while basically doing nothing, and it's still a shithole. A 98% drop over 10 years isn't the same thing as 98% of all crime stopping.
After throwing 3% of their population in prison, it should be like a 5,000% drop, like what happaned in Singapore.
Przedrzag@reddit
The crime rate was already dropping before he got in lol
The_Vaivasuata@reddit
Not at that rate, not even close. Thats a pretty dishonest argument tho
SilianRailOnBone@reddit
Absolute murder rate per 100k inhabitants drop
His rate is even less, it is not disingenuous, you are disingenuous by ignoring the obvious trend that was already happening.
Przedrzag@reddit
The murder rate dropped 36% in 2018 and another 28% in 2019, and Bukele didn’t become president until June 2019
roqueofspades@reddit
Bukele's policies are basically a net positive for tourism and a net negative for the people who actually live there and can get thrown in jail for life with no trial because they passed a gang member on the street
drwicksy@reddit
The audacity of the American comment when they have one of the highest if not the highest percentage of imprisoned people per capita and still have shit loads of crime.
damrider@reddit
Thank god we have this infallible device that came down from the sky one day which helps us determine whether a person deserves to rot in hell for eternity or not, else we'd be in huge trouble!
Amateurlapse@reddit
Simple flow chart.
Are they violent gang leaders who made deals with Bukele to hide their crimes so he could be elected and are now getting charges dropped by Trump to avoid discovery? Let them go!
Are they random shlubs with no political or legal power? Indefinitely detain!
critsalot@reddit
oh sure it works like that now. but when the people get grumbly and complain they will get arrested too. just watch.
RevenantBosmer91@reddit
He is a human trafficker taking advantage of an unfortunate immigration situation.
Dadaman3000@reddit
The question you need to ask is what is more important:
1.) For all innocent people to remain free, while falsely allowing some criminals to remain free as well.
OR
2.) For all criminals to be locked up, while falsely locking up some innocents too.
He chose number 2. Most western countries choose number 1.
Mxfox2106@reddit
With the first one they also lock up innocents. Soo how does that tip the scales?
Dadaman3000@reddit
In the second one, they also miss some criminals.
Should've stated that it's "most". No system has a 100% success rate.
The basic conundrum remains:
Do you want to minimize the amount of innocently locked up people or the amount of guilty but free criminals?
NYCCrimDefense@reddit
0% crime rate in North Korea too. It’s easy to celebrate authoritarianism until it’s your face under the boot.
1981mph@reddit
All of North Korea is effectively a prison. You're not allowed to leave without explicit permission from the party. There are walls and guards whose job it is to prevent people from escaping. Just like the USSR. Just like Cuba.
You are allowed to leave El Salvador. I imagine a lot of violent gang members have fled for the US border in the last 10 years.
NYCCrimDefense@reddit
In El Salvador, if the government gives you a certain classification you lose your habeas corpus rights (i.e. no arbitrary detention and the right to challenge your detention with due process rights and counsel. Therefore, if the wrong person wants you locked up or if there’s some “mistake” you’re gone forever and there’s nothing you can do about it. No matter the short term gains if those rights are not restored promptly people the pendulum will swing from anarchy to authoritarianism and people start to live in a different kind of terror
1981mph@reddit
I understand it's not the best situation right now in El Salvador. But what rights do you think you have under gang rule? They don't give you due process when they want to extort you, or make your son sell drugs and your daughter sell her body because you can't pay the "protection" money.
I'm sure some of the people in those prisons were given their gang tattoos basically at gunpoint. That's very tragic, and we all hope the innocent will one day be released. But El Salvador was the most dangerous country in the world, because the streets were completely overrun with monsters. Bukele was elected to deal with it. Presumably, if there was a way to imprison all of these monsters without a state of emergency, and swift, sweeping action, he would've gone that way.
Put yourself in the position of a father who has been wrongfully arrested under Bukele's new police powers. You don't know if or when you'll be released, or see your family again. The situation is obviously miserable and unjust. But you do know your children, and future generations, now have a chance at a future that doesn't involve constant violence and fear.
The Allied forces killed a lot of innocent German civilians when they were stopping the Nazis from enslaving Europe. Like the El Salvador situation, that was tragic, but necessary.
NYCCrimDefense@reddit
Maybe, you’re right. I’m not gonna pretend like most people aren’t happy with the massive reduction in crime.
But let’s see if Bukele ever relinquishes power, or what other emergency powers he assumes, or what other groups he designates as dangerous. When you can lock up one group without rights, you can lock up another without rights.
In the example you referenced there was a definite end date to the state of emergency, the end of the war. In El Salvador the state of emergency appears indefinite.
MyrmidonExecSolace@reddit
He made deals w MS13 leadership with USAID monies
AlphaMassDeBeta@reddit
SnakeCharmer20@reddit
So the majority of the reduction in homicides had already occurred before he was elected in 2019?
So there was no valid reason to turn into a dictator, he just rode the trend of lower crime that was already happening 🤦♂️
romulusnr@reddit
people out here stanning totalitarian repressive governments that will jail you for life for things like having the wrong tattoo
and you wonder how holocausts happen
PapierStuka@reddit
Who'd have thought
kangarooneroo@reddit
Didn't they find out he was actually a drug kingpin and he started putting away his rivals and didn't he arrest just as many poor innocent people as he did actual criminals? Like people keep praising him, but he was and still is a problem. For crying out loud, the coffee business he freaking owns was recently found transporting a ton of cocain, and the response was to hunt down the reporter?
bartholomewjohnson@reddit
"What if we just made crime illegal"
Ecstatic_Host_9771@reddit
He's the philosopher king!
TurretLimitHenry@reddit
This guy is on his way to either becoming a George Washington of his country, or a gaddaffi/Saddam Hussein.
DawnExMachina@reddit
Arrested everyone without due process = no crime and a lot of innocent lives ruined. Anon with another mouth breather take
1981mph@reddit
Gang violence ruins lives too. Of course I hope the innocent people will be identified and released. Nobody wants innocent people locked up. But like with everything in life, it's a trade off.
Until we have the numbers showing how many innocents are in prison, so we can compare that with the number of lives that would otherwise have been ruined by rampant gang violence, we don't know if the policy has been a net good or bad.
leargonaut@reddit
That in particular is the issue, there is no due process, we can never know how many innocents. It may be far below the previous murder rate, it may be above but what is certain is everyone commenting on this thread doesn't know.
1981mph@reddit
That's a good point that I almost made myself. And it gets much more complicated when you factor in not just the numbers of people facing injustice, but the levels of suffering. It would be unimaginably horrific to be an innocent father caught up in the arrests. Ripped from your family, and stuffed in a cage, indefinitely, with actual monsters. But is that worse than the same father losing a child in the crossfire of a gang war? Is a lifetime in a cage worth a safe future for your family?
I've been thinking about whether I'd be willing to pay the price of being falsely imprisoned, if it meant the difference between me and my family living together in fear and extreme danger, and my family living safely, without me, but also without the gangs terrorising the streets forever. I think my children (and future generations) would have a better life in the latter case.
DawnExMachina@reddit
What about the extreme fear and danger of your child being falsely sent to prison to rot for the rest of their lives?
1981mph@reddit
I think the chances of being an innocent victim of the government are much slimmer than being a victim of gang crime while the gangs are running the streets with total impunity. The murder rate alone was 1/1000. Have 1/1000 innocent El Salvadorians been wrongly imprisoned? I doubt it.
But then consider the other crimes. For every murder, how many robberies, rapes, beatings, drug overdoses, thefts etc do you think there were? How many people's lives, entire communities, destroyed slowly and cruelly by drugs, sex trafficking, extortion, slavery, and who knows what else?
And lastly, consider the fact that this government operation is a temporary issue, fixing what would otherwise have been a permanent problem. In a couple of generations, El Salvador will (hopefully) have peace from both the gangs, and the government. Without Bukele, El Salvador would be facing the nightmare of rampant organised crime forever.
If you're somehow an innocent person with a gang tattoo, then get out of El Salvador, or risk being thrown in with the army of monsters who share your tattoo. That seems reasonable enough under the circumstances.
Flashlight_Inspector@reddit
Can anyone in the comments crying about how he's locking up innocents actually name a single innocent he locked up that's still locked up? And I'm being serious here, because all I see are people saying it's a thing while screeching in hyperbole
stone_henge@reddit
If only there was a way to determine that ahead of locking someone up for life
The_Knife_Pie@reddit
This is the dumbest comment alive, and that’s not hyperbole. How the fuck do you except someone on reddit to be able to show someone who is innocent when the government denies them a trial to prove it.
Flashlight_Inspector@reddit
I'll take literally anything besides a "trust me bro". I'd take a Twitter screencap of a moment saying her imprisoned son is innocent. If you're gonna make bold claims at least give a fraction of a fuck to back them up with anything.
WhEthin@reddit
Can't have crime if you just arrest everyone
maximidze228@reddit
Noooo but there are some innocent people imprisoned, thats not worth it, let everyone go out of prison and let the country burn to the ground, thats the correct western way of doing things
Berkuts_Lance_Plus@reddit
Context_hat.jpg
SaddamIsBack@reddit
Yt people simping for authoritarian daddy because their was lacking authority is how this civilization will end lol.
Knuda@reddit
Strategies that work for shitholes are not the same as strategies that work for nice parts of the world.
Due process is not very good there.
SavedMountain@reddit
I think it’s a radical approach but if it’s working it’s okay to be wrong sometimes
Experience_Material@reddit
You skipped out the best, US leftists are seething and calling him fascist and there are articles of them asking if this is “moral”, it’s beautiful seeing them cope
biskutgoreng@reddit
Anon about to get a 'i'm just a tourist' moment someday
The_Shittiest_Meme@reddit
does anyone actually believe 99% reduction in crime? that doesn't read as fishy? its likely still fairly high and numbers are being fudged. Also note that the El Salvador doesn't actually have a plan of what to do with these criminals besides "work them to death"
ShotgunCreeper@reddit
For some reason everyone is very eager to take the guy who essentially neutered his country’s justice system at face value.
Fit_Cake_8227@reddit
DellOptiplexGX240@reddit
conservatives not simping for dictators for 5 minutes challenge level: IMPOSSIBLE
void_17@reddit
South American Stalin
LitmusPitmus@reddit
Why does nobody wonder why this has only worked in El Salvador? And no the answer isn't just keeping criminals in jail.
bagged_milk123@reddit
Bro has dictator powers
Not_That_Magical@reddit
Because it’s a massive human rights violation and nobody else wants to do it
Meme_Pope@reddit
90% of crime is committed by cartel members that have tattoos that make them extremely easy to round up
MrPopanz@reddit
Enlighten us please!
abermea@reddit
Part of the reason it was possible for him to do it is because El Salvador is a relatively small country, both in terms of population and landmass.
The logistics and investment of putting his policies in practice on places like the US or Canada is impossible to even calculate.
The US already has \~2M people imprisoned (\~0.6% of the population) and it's already a mess in terms of the budget and manpower needed.
I don't see how Bukele's approach to law enforcement can work on a country with over 20M people, unless that country was obscenely rich.
NighthawK1911@reddit
Will probably work for the short term, but for the long term he'll probably turn dictator.
The issue I'm seeing here is that people are very inflexible.
There are times when you need an iron fist. There are times when you need to be tolerant.
The extremely high crime rate necessitated extreme measures. However, this shouldn't overstay its welcome.
IBetrayedTV@reddit
I know fuck all about El Slavador. Judging by the comments here, nobody else knows fuck all either. Ain't nothing wrong with shutting the fuck up if you're not an expert on a topic.
hansuluthegrey@reddit
Wow I wonder if mass arresting people has any sort of negative outcome on the govt hmmmmmmm.
Yall have middle schoolers brains
Porncritic12@reddit
it also really helps if you declare a state of emergency and extend it several times, don't give any of the criminals due process and just hope you don't get anyone innocent, and then change the constitution to run for a second term!
UnsureAndUnqualified@reddit
Is that why the US, with it's extremely high incarceration rate, is such a safe country?
BigHatPat@reddit
we’ll see what happens we he starts running out of criminals to imprison.
Wiinterfang@reddit
Who?
sunburn95@reddit
Yeah come on US, just one more private supermax prison and crime will be solved bro, promise bro, just disproportionately deprive one more minority of their freedom and everything will be good bro
pornhubforcomments@reddit
How did he do it? Colluding with the gangs and using it to end due process.
Mr-Klaus@reddit
Just coz it "worked" it doesn't mean it's right.
Thousands, if not tens of thousands of innocent people were caught up in El Salvador's crackdown on gangs. People were being arrested for dumb shit like having tattoos, standing on the wrong street corner, being friends with/related to gang members...etc.
Those numbers are even crazier when you factor in El Salvador's population, which is around 6 million.
To put it into perspective, last year Bukele bragged about releasing 8000 innocents who were wrongly arrested in his gang war. If you adjust that number to the USA population, that's around half a million people.
It's like Trump bragging about releasing half a million people wrongly arrested over the last few months.
People like to talk about this like it's some kind of achievement when all he did was build a giant prison and throw anyone even slightly shifty into it.
nothing_in_my_mind@reddit
This guy is a modern legend.
Crime must be punished. Most countries forgot about that.
Yes, rehabilitating criminals, due process, appeals... these are all great concepts. But they are great if they WORK, not if the criminals slip through the cracks, go unpunished, and keep on harming people.
The number 1 goal of the prison system is: When a motherfucker picks up a knife to kill, hurt, rape or otherwise harm someone, he thinks twice because he KNOWS FOR A FACT that he will go behind bars for a very long time.
When that goal is achieved, you can go for other goals, such as rehaiblitating these criminals.
Corbakobasket@reddit
Impressive, very nice.
Now let's see how things go from there.
Oaker_at@reddit
The American is genuinely astonished. Because they put half their population into prisons and the country is still a shithole
Human-Boob@reddit
Is that Wendigoon
Kaleb8804@reddit
Thought it was Mamdani lmao
How2chair@reddit
we did it. We found mexican wendigoon
igerardcom@reddit
We did it reddit!
Zealousideal-Bus-526@reddit
Mexigoon
GarryofRiverton@reddit
Make a Hooters knock-off with Latinas and Mexican food, call it Mexigoon.
I_am_Reptoid_King@reddit
Let's pitch this on Shark Tank.
Coldmelon56@reddit
Yes
iwasbatman@reddit
Fake and gay. Like bukele.
When 0 consideration for human rights is the norm, the sky is the limit.
yasiguri@reddit
>"Criminals"
Probably1915@reddit
Arresting criminals? Idk sounds pretty racist and bigoted to me. Have we considered just giving them money to get them to stop stealing?
LEHG420@reddit
More like paid the gang members (cash and early release for leaders) to force people in poor neighborhoods to vote for him and to reduce violence. He is in the process of extraditing gang leaders and former police who live in the US so they cannot testify against him in the DoJ case being brought because he used USAID money to pay them off. Also I know people who know him IRL (sibling of friend who went to school with him) and homie is a coke head, wife beater who allegedly enjoys the company of man, and is such a douche because he got bullied at the private school he went to.
I_am_Reptoid_King@reddit
Snorts coke, beats his wife, and fucks dudes.
Unfathomably based.
PixelPerfect__@reddit
The country is not a success story. They have been on the verge of financial collapse for as long as he has been in power. SEVERAL TIMES.
They are the definition of other countries bailing them out constantly. They are not in a better position even now.
johnson_alleycat@reddit
The 2029 backlash when Bukele gets dragged through the streets of Minecraft and flayed alive in chat will be entirely surprising to like 80% of the people in here
Dog_in_human_costume@reddit
just like thor
IgotAseaView@reddit
But 1 in 10,000 of them are actually innocent sorta so we should free them all just incase!
mundus1520@reddit
Was not expecting to see the Honduras flag there.
pacotromas@reddit
Almost as if all crime is now performed by the goverment, and thus legal!
Th0rizmund@reddit
Top-Commander@reddit
Samspd71@reddit
For those not in the known, he's the President of El Salvador. The one who's had an immense crackdown on crime and gangs and, yes, essentially follows the basic strategy of "if commit crime, jail you get", which has so far accomplished exactly what he set out to do.
jaypenn3@reddit
It’s also “if didn’t commit crime, jail you get” so…
Visible-Original4561@reddit
They’ll call you socialist if you try to keep criminals in jail y’know
Thesleepingjay@reddit
tfw these anon learn that 'merica has more people in jail than any other country :O