Scientists prove that fish suffer "intense pain" for at least 10 minutes after catch, calls made for reforms
Posted by Few-Vacation-8721@reddit | marinebiology | View on Reddit | 18 comments
pencilurchin@reddit
I have a few gripes with this article as someone well involved in the aquaculture sector in the US particularly. I think it’s fairly biased to put aquaculture in the crosshairs of this study - particularly since the sector is already fighting animal rights groups near 24/7 as it is a much weaker and juicer target compared to the very well established and bolstered poultry, swine and cattle sectors. Despite aquaculture widely being much more environmentally sustainable, and personally I think much more humane than terrestrial commercial animal agriculture. Aquaculture has also struggled for years with getting scientists, aquatic vets and policy makers to come up with cohesive slaughter methodologies that are cost effective and humane as possible. The very wide diversity in the sector and chronic lack of resources from USDA makes it very difficult to adequately even put forth basic guidelines and framework. Many facilities follow AVMA or other Veterinary recommendations but fish are not studied nearly as well as terrestrial animals. There are also pretty strict limits on how you can slaughter animals that are going into the food supply.
It’s great to want to enforce higher welfare standards but my immediate question is how? Tilipia for example can be slaughtered via ice bath slurries humanely because they are a tropical species. So you have a lot of different species that all have different physiologies and would require different enforcement. Meanwhile catfish are the only fish considered livestock under USDA’s full purview, all types of aquaculture are regulated partially by USDA but processing is regulated by FDA, not under USDA’s catfish program.
This is not an easy let’s snap our fingers and fix this issue. Aquaculture is already exists in an extremely complex regulatory framework (29 pieces of federal legislation and 9 federal agencies plus state and local laws).
And this is not a “those evil farmers and processors abusing fish” issue - this is very much an issue that even academics engaging in aquaculture research have struggled with - there is simply just not a lot of good ways to slaughter fish rapidly and efficiently. We have entire conveyor belt systems dedicated to slaughtering swine, poultry and cattle thanks to an animal agriculture sector which has developed over centuries. Aquaculture has not been performed on a large scale in human history until the past 100 years or so, despite the fact humans have been using aquaculture to feed themselves for thousands of years.
TheDailyMews@reddit
I know very little about aquaculture, so I hope you'll forgive what is likely a question with a very obvious answer, but why isn't clove oil used to sedate the fish?
pencilurchin@reddit
Clove oil is considered a carcinogen by the FDA and is not safe to use on food fish. (Anything that goes into a food fish’s body must be FDA approved from therapeutics/medicines to food). In general clove oil is not a common chemical in aquaculture due to its wide variation in dosage, difficulty mixing with water, and its lack of FDA approval for use as an anesthetic/therapeutic. Tricaine methanesulfonate (MS-222) is pretty much the gold standard for an anesthetic for fish. It’s near impossible to OD fish, dosage is based off of water volume (while Clove oil is based typically explicitly based on size of fish and aversiveness and effects depend heavily on individual species and size) which means dosing large tanks is relatively straight forward. Fish are quickly put under by it with very little aversive responses. From my experience clove oil absolutely can cause a more significant aversive effect than MS-222 if you are dosing high doses rapidly. I still use it home on my own fish and some researchers will use it on fish in certain situations/settings. I think it is a great option but imo must be dosed much more intentionally than MS-222.
Unfortunately MS-222 also is not approved for foodfish as it’s not considered safe by FDA to consume fish dosed with MS-222 prior to slaughter. This is what I mean by for slaughter the aquaculture sector really does not have a lot of options. Ice slurries (which means water at 0C) and electric shock/stunning (usually followed by physical slaughter) are really the most common slaughter practices, but slaughter methods vary greatly between cultured species and operations. For example for catfish, one of the largest finfish food production sectors, fish are transported to processing facilities where they are shocked/stunned and then beheaded. The catfish sector has a more streamlined and uniform process more in line with terrestrial animal ag bc it’s one of the oldest in the US and has spent many years developing into what it is now, is located primarily in one area (Mississippi Delta) and like I mentioned has better USDA oversight and industry coordination when it comes to processing due to it being considered livestock.
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
This is assuming the fish isn’t humanely kill and left to suffocate out of the water. We also have no way of quantifying what “intense pain” is.
PerryTheBunkaquag@reddit
What
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
Did you read it?
dr_bringus@reddit
did you? i don't understand your point here. the fish obviously feel pain. you are the one assuming that most people who toss a line out into the water care about "humanely" killing the fish immediately.
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
Yeah, a couple days ago; actually. I didn’t assume anything. I know how fish are handled. What’s crazy is that I’m old and decades ago I was taught to humanely kill fish and not to let them suffocate. By my grandmother, in fact. She is still alive and now I take her fishing. I fish a lot. All fish I keep are immediately clubbed and bled. Because it tastes better.
aretheselibertycaps@reddit
You think every fish on a commercial vessel pulling in tonnes per day are clubbed?
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
What did I say? I said I know how they’re handled.
aretheselibertycaps@reddit
You’re saying it’s assuming the fish isn’t ‘humanely killed’ and left to suffocate as if that’s not the norm for 99% of fish caught
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
marinebiology-ModTeam@reddit
Your submission was removed as it violated rule #2: No harassing, abusive, or offensive comments. Please be civil.
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
So you understand what I am saying? You keep projecting some other stuff onto my comments. I’m not a commercial fisherman. I don’t buy commercially caught fish. Where was I defending on how fish’s are handled commercially? I understand that’s the majority of fish by pure numbers but it is on the consumer to demand better care. Anyone looking at Alaskan trawler bycatch, should be opposed to anything other than rod and reel fishing anyway.
leavenotrace71@reddit
Are you aware of industrial and commercial fishing?
JesusWasALibertarian@reddit
I am. I’m not fighting anyone on that. I don’t purchase fish. Trawler fishing is probably one of the most unethical natural resource raping machines on the planet.
batman0615@reddit
Thanks for the insight libertarian fisherman, very cool!
marinebiology-ModTeam@reddit
Your submission was removed as it violated rule #2: No harassing, abusive, or offensive comments. Please be civil.