Annual investigation report of China Eastern Airlines flight MU5735 crash withheld citing national security concerns
Posted by Sinhag@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 489 comments
CaerusChaos@reddit
bravogates@reddit
The captain of silk air 185 was also demoted from a check airman to an ordinary captain.
thoeby@reddit
Similar to Flight 9525 - he was declared unfit to work by his doctor for suicidal tendencies (but back he was able to hide this information from his employer)
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
He also lost a lot of money on the Asian stock market and got cut off. Had clashed with other pilots including his FO that day and he lost all the members of his military squadron on a training mission some years earlier on the same month and day of the crash. He survived b/c a problem in his plane forced him to not participate in the training missio which could have caused survivor's guilt. He was a walking billboard for an Early Warning System for pilots This murder/suicide was less than two years before Egypt Air 990.
Later, you would have Mozambique Airlines, Malaysian 370 and Germanwings in 2013, 2014 and 2015. .
Impossible-Repeat577@reddit
survivors guilt so you bring a ton of innocent people to die with you?
Humble_Associate1@reddit
Are you sure he was the first officer or is it a translation/factual mistake and he was just sitting in the right seat, which is not unusual for instructors or line training captains.
UMIKsmart_home@reddit
I was working on the field that day when the plane fell from the sky
AnOtherGuy1234567@reddit
Wiki is saying that he was the First Officer.
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
Wasn't the Captain a lot younger than the FO at 32 years old? Zhang Zhengping was the FO per NYT.
AnOtherGuy1234567@reddit
Looks like the FO had been heavily demoted. Which could well be very embarrassing.
T7-City-Point@reddit
There are plenty of discussions on Chinese social media, and most of them also suggest that the older, more experienced pilot is the first officer.
A press release from state media 2022 also confirmed the hours of each of the three pilots, corresponding to their ranks. It even specifically mentioned the roles of each, without any mentions of training.
So translation error can be ruled out.
HaatOrAnNuhune@reddit
Yes, you’re correct! A captain’s rank remains the same regardless of the seat they’re sitting in. In a situation where there’s two captains in the flight deck one of them is designated as the Pilot In Command (PIC) to avoid confusion in the chain of command.
Equoniz@reddit
Who is it that decides these ranks? Is it the airlines?
Fabulous-Kanos@reddit
Yes. Rank is assigned by the airline (provided you have the qualifications to hold the roll)
LaggyComputer11@reddit
I feel like the rank here may be temporary and the First Officer was only acting as First Officer to supervise a younger pilot's training as captain but honestly this is just a guess
HaatOrAnNuhune@reddit
Yup, the airlines decide it ahead of the trip!
VegaGPU@reddit
Yes, in 3U8633, the guy that went into the cockpit from the cabin who was also a captain after the glass crashed with the first officer sucked out was known as Second Captain or 2nd in command despite sitting in the first jumpseat.
vintain@reddit
Is 31,000+ even achievable?
Considering the fact he's been training people and all that. Sounds weird.
Active_Extension9887@reddit
sounds inflated.
Tough-Candy-9455@reddit
Maybe military service before joining the airline?
n365pa@reddit
Most military pilots are much lower timed than civilian. It’s not abnormal for military drivers to retire with 3-4000 hours TT.
my_konstantine_@reddit
Is this true for the Chinese military though? I can’t find any sources really
VegaGPU@reddit
Yes, and PLAAF was not in any good financial state to pay for so much fuel and maintenance in the years prior to the turn of the century.
superiosity_@reddit
If he maxed out the FAA 1000hr/calendar year rule and he started flying at 27 then totally possible. Don’t know what China flight limits are though. May be more or less. They also said TOTAL flight hours which doesn’t specify type of aircraft or seat.
originalthoughts@reddit
Captains usually are only Captains that is true, they have to maintain hours and certification to be able to sit in the right chart as first officer.
However, Captains that train others keep the certification to be first officers as that is required to train other Captains. There could be numerous reasons why he was in the right seat, for example a scheduled check on the other pilot. The other pilot also might not be up to date and unable to seat at co pilot, leaving the more experienced to sit in the right. There are others situations too.
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
Yang Hongda was only 32. They also had an observer who was 27.
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
That can piss someone off too, including at the airline.
Separate-Fishing-361@reddit
This lines up with the pilot who crashed EgyptAir 995. A senior instructor, he could never get promoted to captain for lack of connections, and was accustomed to flying as first officer with captains he’d trained. He kept flying for the money (supporting a special needs daughter) and enjoyed living in NYC with locality adjustments. But he was faced with moving back to Egypt…
PotatoFeeder@reddit
No, he wasnt promoted because he was a notorious sexual predator.
Agitated-Trifle-5333@reddit
So many of those still in the flight deck at too many airlines
Phil-X-603@reddit
🤓👆 erm ackshually it's Egyptair 990
Because the relief F/O (the one who crashed the plane) was behaving inappropriately (as in sexual harrassment) in the US, EgyptAir decided to stop him from flying there. Because these flights were very coveted and only a few pilots were qualified to do so, this made the relief F/O very mad, so he decided to take revenge by crashing the plane.
Separate-Fishing-361@reddit
Thanks, it’s been a long time since I read the accident report — definitely before #MeToo. The report spent a lot of words on his technical qualifications and inability to get promoted. I’ve been aware that promotion as a pilot in some countries’ airlines as well as air forces can depend on family, class, or political considerations. These countries are also known for CRM problems.
In any case, getting scheduled as a relief FO was his usual practice for getting to Cairo on short notice. The investigation was delayed by the insistence by Egyptian aviation authorities that an equipment failure must be the cause because “suicide by a devout Moslem is impossible” and it was insulting to suggest it.
I suppose KSM noted the coverage…
maxintosh1@reddit
Sometimes flights get scheduled with two captains if that's how staffing plays out
VegaGPU@reddit
Happens a lot in china especially the gov keep mandating fleetwide dual captaincy (ARJ21) and also airport needing dual captain to fly into
halfty1@reddit
“Failing a simulator test” is likely just the official excuse, since as you point out the chances of that happening from an instructor is really low.
In reality he was likely demoted for some other reason, e.g. he was caught criticizing Chinese government/policy or something. China Eastern is a government owned airline so have to tow party line especially when in a prominent position.
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justhere4inspiration@reddit
It's "toe the line" btw, like how soldiers stand at attention all lined up with their toes on a line.
Veryhappycommission@reddit
TIC. This is China. 10 years living there. Promotion is not based on merit. Its based on relationship.
Mic_Ultra@reddit
When have promotions been based on merit?!? Everything is relationship based
2squishmaster@reddit
Where is this quote from?
algaefied_creek@reddit
For years I've argued the working age should be 25-55 for those who choose university education or age 20-50 for those who choose trades.
Above 55 we increasingly run the risk of bioorganic-electric substrate glitches... and should be retired after then.
That's the Star Trek economy that Musk even talks about, but hasn't defined fully.
Accurate-North-88@reddit
What?
CmdrEnfeugo@reddit
I believe they are suggesting that people past 55 have diminishing reflexes and cognitive skills, but said in a very silly way. It is true that these diminishing with aging, but Capt Sullenberger was 58 when he saved Flight 1549. It was about 3 minutes from bird strike to landing in the Hudson, so it’s clear his reflexes and cognitive skills were up to the task. Maybe older pilots should have more testing, but it’s hardly the case that you can’t be a great pilot after 55.
algaefied_creek@reddit
Yeah pretty much saying 55 would be a dream retirement age
Accurate-North-88@reddit
Ah, but yeah agreed. Don’t see anything wrong with some extra testing above that age.
OkSatisfaction9850@reddit
If you are 59, your career was behind you. He would have had access to retirement benefits. Demotion at that age doesn’t mean much financially. Many people accept lower paying roles as they near retirement and there is nothing wrong with it. There must be smth else
notjfd@reddit
In many systems your retirement benefits are directly proportional to your last earnings period. So getting demoted means taking a cut in your retirement as well. I have no clue how this works in China but it's not out of the question.
sealightflower@reddit
Yes, I remember the opposite (positive) example, that the captain of United flight 232 Alfred Haynes had been the first officer during most of his career by personal reasons, but a few years before retirement, he finally agreed to become a captain because it could let him to get larger retirement benefits.
CaerusChaos@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/aircrashinvestigation/comments/1bxs8g1/comment/kyj54gs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Figit090@reddit
That immediately stood out to me too, I didn't understand the disparity between his award and his position on the aircraft.
Not that that position wouldn't be valuable, I know pilots who prefer to stay away from the captain seat. It just didn't sound right in this case....
Damn.
AppropriateClient407@reddit
There is no difference between Captain and First Officer in terms of one being above the other - usually when pilots are flying they take turns and swap after each leg. It’s just so that one can be the lead contact person as to not be confusing when communicating with ATC and other planes.
Roadgoddess@reddit
When you read about their descent, I’m assuming he would’ve had to incapacitate the other two people in the cockpit. I feel like at some point somebody fought back briefly where they briefly levelled off. The speeds at which it was travelling when it impacted the ground, they think could’ve been up to 700 mph.
“Contact with the aircraft was lost over the city of Wuzhou.[18] At 14:22 (06:22 UTC), while approaching its top of descent into Guangzhou, the aircraft entered a sudden steep descent from 29,100 feet (8,900 m). It briefly leveled off and climbed from 7,400 ft (2,300 m) to 9,225 ft (2,812 m), but then plunged downwards again, reaching a final recorded altitude of 3,225 ft (983 m) at 376 kn (696 km/h) less than two minutes after the beginning of the descent, with a maximum descent rate of above 32,000 feet (9,800 m) per minute.[19] At 14:23 (06:23 UTC),[2] the aircraft lost signal and crashed in the mountainous regions of Teng County causing a fire in nearby vegetation.[3][20][21] According to an astronautics and aeronautics professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, preliminary data indicated the aircraft traveled close to the speed of sound when it crashed. Data from Flightradar24 suggest it was traveling at speeds of 640 km/h (400 mph) and may have exceeded 1,126 km/h (700 mph) at the time of impact.[22] The aircraft's impact into the ground created a crater 100 ft (30 m) wide and 66 ft (20 m) deep, where most of the wreckage was discovered.”
ashishvp@reddit
Do you have proof that he was demoted? Because it sounds to me like he was simply there to train the second officer in HOW to be a first officer.
askingforafakefriend@reddit
Maybe the simulator results were fake/pretext...
no-regrets-approach@reddit
Just asking - isnt it a practice for a training captain to take the role of a first officer?
bravogates@reddit
They would be sitting in the right seat when training another captain.
StupendousMalice@reddit
He was probably sitting in the first office seat because he was training the other pilot.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
I understand suicide. I will never understand taking other people with you.
jjlinjjie@reddit
Downvoted because of fucking redact even though the comment seemed to be good. Fuck you.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
It’s a message. “You didn’t listen to me when I was in pain.”
Suicide doesn’t just come with depression and self hatred. There is anger too. Anger at the family members who didn’t listen. The doctors who didn’t listen. The government officials who make healthcare systems everywhere so complicated don’t listen.
How do you get them to listen? You hurt them. You hope you get one of their friends or cousins. You hope they read the headline and blame themselves for not helping you. It’s not just about leaving this world behind. You see it most often in school shooting manifestos. These people think that what they do might wake up society and make it better or something for others in the future who suffer and are not listened to.
Maybe it’s time we just fucking listen.
BlueGolfball@reddit
Those are some weak reasons to murder 200+ people.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
They are clearly not weak reasons to the person who commits the act.
Blood_Incantation@reddit
Man, some people are just THE WORST.
"Well, that guy thought this, give him some credit!" I'm so glad I don't go through life thinking this way. It's pathetic.
elegigglekappa4head@reddit
Real reason he lashed out at these people… was because he could, at the weak vulnerable passengers, versus the target of his actual anger, the upper management. The latter would’ve required a lot more planning and effort.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
If we understand them, it stops this from happening.
NomadElite@reddit
So many bad things could be stopped if more people just felt seen and heard in general.
Remarkable-Diet-7732@reddit
Yet it's a reason, and it keeps happening. You'll never guess what you're capable of until you experience torture, rape, or similar horrors with no end in sight.
rddtvbhv@reddit
If you keep thinking this way, they will keep acting the same way. What's really stopping us from a little societal introspection?
Just_Learned_This@reddit
What are some solid reasons?
BlueGolfball@reddit
200 Nazis
Soft_Walrus_3605@reddit
Keep in mind it's an explanation, not a justification.
otac0n@reddit
Good cop out. Keep going.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
Yeah. It's a good point. I just don't think I'd ever be that angry at the world myself.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
That’s because your circumstances are not their’s. If you had their genetics, their upbringing, and their life, then you would make the exact same decisions they did. You’re not special.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
As I suicidal person am never doing that
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Then you just haven’t been pushed far enough. That’s very fortunate.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Hah
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Very main character syndrome. “Nobody has experienced worse than MEEEE”.
Literally only people who have experienced the most petty trauma think this way. $10 says a boyfriend left you and you think that’s as bad as it gets. If you suffered real trauma, you’d know what an angry suicide attempt would feel like. Not just a depressed one.
You clearly don’t have it that bad if you cannot sympathize with people who do.
LizzieLou81@reddit
Settle Petal 😂
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
plus if it is pilot suicide are you really justifying it?
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Quote me where I justify it.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
I didn't say you did, even in that reply I am asking dude
weirdoeggplant@reddit
That’s not how you ask a question in English. Those kinds of questions are rhetorical.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Alr alr man I get it I was wrong k? but just for clarification I ain't a dumb redditor who never experienced any pain , not saying I faced the worst pain but dude
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Thank you for being willing to change perspective. You’re not dumb if you can learn. But never say “I wouldn’t do what they did” because everybody would do what somebody else does if they were that person. You would have their biology and their upbringing so your brain would be their’s and not your own. Humans have less free will than they believe.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Btw dude I was suffering from bdd (diagnosed) loneliness anxiety and also the death of my grandfather but you changed my outlook on life , thanks
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
ok
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Dude I just said it my guy , calm down it's not that dude
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Your English is bad. I don’t mind pointing that out to people who think they have the worst lives when they’ve never experienced any kind of real trauma.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
When did I say I had the worst life?
weirdoeggplant@reddit
When you said that you wouldn’t do what somebody who has a worse life than you did. You must live the worst life imaginable if you can fathom all circumstances.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Alr bro I agree but please don't think I am a dumb redditor who has main character syndrome
weirdoeggplant@reddit
You absolutely are if you think that you wouldn’t do what this person did. Their life was worse than your’s is. If you had their life, you would do the same thing.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Like bro I am sympathetic to them but if your family member died in it would you really be the same my guy? No offense to you but dude
weirdoeggplant@reddit
I would still blame the system that allowed this to happen, yes. The mentally ill cannot make decisions for themselves.
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
I know right
AvailableSalt5502@reddit
Plus you literally went right away to my post history huh , seems like you ran Outta reasons
weirdoeggplant@reddit
No I just wanted to see what trauma you had in your life. And I guessed correctly. None.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
Well yeah. If I had their genetics their upbringing, their life, then I would be them. If I was them I'd do the same thing. I said I'd never do that....
And my mommy says I'm special so 😝
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Then I’m not sure what your comment was about. You would be that angry at the world if it gave you a reason to be is what I’m saying. You just haven’t been pushed that far.
joesnopes@reddit
No.
There is no duty on anybody to listen to somebody else. Especially when the correct amount of listening is decided by a mentally unbalanced person. For many people, no amount of listening by others will be enough or it won't be the right person listening or they don't hear properly what the talker needs and wants. And so on.
Some people are mentally unbalanced and other people can't fix it.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
You clearly don’t understand what “listening” means in terms of mental health.
It is treatment. If you treat the person, then they won’t do this. If you treat the person, they will be reasonable in measuring their expectations from others.
It is absolutely up to the rest of society to look after the mentally ill, because they cannot look after themselves.
joesnopes@reddit
No. Apart from pharmacological treatments, mental health "treatment" is among the least efficacious and most labour-intensive and overall expensive - relative to results - of all medical treatments.
I didn't say - and don't think - that mentally ill people shouldn't be looked after by their community but your post clearly showed you thought that society needed to change. NO. The problem is the patients, not the society.
And it is weaselly to use innocuous "listening" as a synonym for expensive and often ineffective treatment.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Because we need to get better at it. With more funding.
Also repeatedly yelling no just makes you sound like a toddler lmfao. That doesn’t change the fact that mental health treatment helps when done correctly and is getting better with more research. It is still in its infancy as a science.
joesnopes@reddit
It's now been in its infancy for 150 years at least. Time to grow up and become cost-effective.
Yes. We need to get better at it but more and more funding has done little good for many years now. Let me repeat because you obviously didn't read:
"Apart from pharmacological treatments, mental health "treatment" is among the least efficacious and most labour-intensive and overall expensive - relative to results - of all medical treatments."
Now. Would you like to discuss those points?
weirdoeggplant@reddit
150 years is nothing for science. It took us thousands of years to make anesthetic for physical healthcare.
I don’t see how you expect it to get better without more funding. I have no idea what you’re quoting either, quick google search says 75% of people who go to therapy say they have a positive outcome. That’s worth the labor and financial cost to me.
joesnopes@reddit
Your Google search only measures benefit. I was discussing cost-benefit. The hugely labour-intensive mental health treatments are hugely expensive and give little benefit. Especially for the most disturbed.
Your Google search is mainly an opinion poll of the worried well, not genuinely mentally ill people. And that is what more money will go to - pointless, expensive therapy for the worried well.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
I do not care about cost when it saves lives. Why do you?
joesnopes@reddit
You do care about cost. Everybody does.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Not if I’m safe. Safety means more than money.
joesnopes@reddit
Rubbish. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, Qantas was the safest airline in the world. But as soon as cheaper fares became available, people couldn't wait to buy tickets on cheaper but less safe airlines.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Cool. I’m not them.
joesnopes@reddit
We - including you - are all "them".
weirdoeggplant@reddit
That’s not how statistics work.
joesnopes@reddit
I wasn't talking statistics. I was describing human nature.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
What the fuck does that have to do with paying higher taxes? You don’t get to opt out.
joesnopes@reddit
Yes I do. Don't you?
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Opt out of taxes? No. They’re taxes. You have to pay them.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Also prove they aren’t beneficial. From what I can tell, they are.
Proof or you’re lying.
joesnopes@reddit
Don't be childish. You know I'm right.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
No, I don’t. And now I know you’re lying. You have no stats. You just hate the mentally ill.
Ok_Barber_3314@reddit
💯💯
In countries like Belgium, even certain teens which have had incurable mental illness has opted for "Physician Assisted Suicide"
joesnopes@reddit
And countries like Canada and the Netherlands.
Mentally unbalanced people need to be cared for and by the community but THEY are the ones who need to change, not the normal healthy community.
The poster that I replied to wanted the community to change. NO.
Ok_Barber_3314@reddit
The fact is, the healthy have no time for anybody else.
The mentally ill are trapped and can't even achieve a normal livelihood because of the illness.
It is what it is.
ItGetsEverywhere1990@reddit
That anger is part of the mental illness and is not rational. It deserves treatment, not to be ‘listened to.’ These are the irrational, awful things people tell themselves before doing awful things to other people.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
I didn’t say listen to the anger. Why the fuck would I suggest listening to a mass murderer?
I said listen to the mentally ill when they tell you they are mentally ill. That is down to your poor reading comprehension skills.
Academic_Technology5@reddit
We cannot let you fly a plane. Sorry.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Who’s gonna stop me? Therapists that I can easily avoid? The system doesn’t stop anybody as it is right now.
MysteriousAge28@reddit
That just sounds like a piece of shit to me. Someone will always be mad at the world.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Neglecting mental health issues solves nothing.
joesnopes@reddit
Putting immense amounts of money into mental health issues ahs solved nothing.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
It has, if you’re privileged enough to afford it or lucky enough to get a spot. It is not financially accessible nor is it socially acceptable for everybody yet.
joesnopes@reddit
No. Money has solved nothing. As more money is put into mental health by the government the rate of mental illness rises more than commensurately.
Yes. Some of the treatments are somewhat effective. But more money brings in charlatan practitioners, a giant bureaucratic training system, huge levels of credentialism and these attract - and cultivate - more and more patients.
Social acceptability is in the mind of the patient.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
The rate of mental illness rises because more people have access to diagnosis. Treating more people is a good thing.
There are quack doctors too. So we shouldn’t fund any kind of physical healthcare either, right?
I don’t even know what you mean by that last sentence. The mentally ill are not in their right minds. They cannot make judgements without the help of people who are.
Crohn_sWalker@reddit
You seriously just dont get it huh?
So sad
MysteriousAge28@reddit
Seems you don't. Your plight is only on you, it's not mine to wear or be responsible for. You annihilating people around you out of depression is a despicable act.
Patrahayn@reddit
Absolute load of tripe.
If you murder other people in suicide, you’re a piece of shit and there’s 0 justification.
Cowardly and pathetic
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Where did I condone any of what they did? I am advocating for. Better mental health treatment and that’s a load of tripe to you? So you just want this to happen again? Nothing changes if you ignore mental health.
Patrahayn@reddit
You’re justifying it based on societal failures - that’s exactly what that entire diatribe is about.
No matter the failings of society this is never an acceptable outcome and it should be shamed not excused.
One can acknowledge mental health failures and also show shit like this is intolerable.
sykokiller11@reddit
This just shows you don’t understand mental illness. It’s literally “crazy” shit happening. I will shame and not excuse your intolerable ignorance. But I will acknowledge it.
weirdoeggplant@reddit
An explanation is not a justification. That is down to your poor reading comprehension.
Scrodnick@reddit
Nah man, you’re wrong
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Yes this one sentence with absolutely nothing of value made me rethink everything.
Scrodnick@reddit
Well, that’s good
Patrahayn@reddit
lol sweet condescension but no, your words are a direct justification despite your claiming otherwise hence why nearly every response says as much.
You’re an apologist for cowards because you clearly believe in absolving people of personal responsibility just because they’re depressed
weirdoeggplant@reddit
Then quote where I justify it.
sykokiller11@reddit
Yes it is.
And they don’t care. They’re dead.
Ignorant and stupid
usrnmz@reddit
Depressed people can sometimes be angry at the world.
Doesn’t make it right, but it’s a mental illness after all.
persephonepeete@reddit
If pilots are scared to report mental health illnesses because they will lose their jobs... airlines should incentivize pilots to come forward with mental health illnesses where they DON'T LOSE THEIR LIVELIHOOD.
Instead of 'thanks for telling us about your struggles Captain here is the door" ...
It should be 'if you tell us about your struggles you will be benched HOWEVER there is a mental health pension that will keep you in your quality of life AND we will keep you employed as an instructor or educator for youth programs or if you want"
That's essentially what the American military does (badly). If you can prove a disability you get a some sort of pension for life with conditions. If pilots had that the stress of not being able to perform or support their families could go away and airlines can very much afford it. In exchange for being benched for the rest of your life and poor... get benched for the rest of your life and paid.
That's about the only thing that can MAYBE prevent all these murder-suicides from being mentally ill.
But if someone is angry at their job and want to murder a bunch of people there is no stopping that. Anywhere.
Stoney3K@reddit
It really doesn't help when the mental health issues are caused by the workplace: Long shifts, irregular work times, a lot of days from home, and high stress situations.
So if pilots were to address mental health issues, a health & safety agency would first turn their attention to their employer.
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
One pilot downed his plane killing everyone on board b/c he was about to be disciplined for a sexual harassment investigation. Another was on an anniversary where he was the only survivor of a military aviation training accident and also had work issues. Another possible murder sucide was a captain who downed his airplane hours after a political candidate he had supported was sentenced for sex crimes. China Eastern Airlines had a crew member with issues too. Even with Germanwings, he suffered depression to the point of psychosis but he was terrified of being grounded b/c he felt he was going blind. In another murder suicide the pilot's son had committed suicide not long before. Committing suicide is one thing but adding the murder of others to it seems like depression might not always be the only factor.
persephonepeete@reddit
The issues in the military are from their jobs too. PTSD being a big one even on top of prior stuff.
Remarkable-Diet-7732@reddit
That is NOT what happens in the US military. In the US, we punish rape victims & cover up murders. We blame landmine-inflicted wounds on a "personality disorder". We promise college money, then deny it after you're critically injured in the line of duty.
King-in-Council@reddit
Suicide is always cowardly. Having attempted and deeply effected by the suicide of a loved on.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
I don't think suicide is innately cowardly. People who are in constant pain, terminal patients? And just because you can get help doesn't mean you will. I went to my doctor with post partum depression, worse than my regular depression. She decided to change my meds. I asked her if I needed to taper off the old one. She said no, just switch, you'll be fine. I was not fine. A week later I went in to see her again. My doctor was on vacation so I saw her fill in. She was pregnant herself, this doctor. I told her I need so thing to cushion the blow from this med switch because I'm scaring myself. She said wouldn't do anything because "you're not my patient".
People ask for help all the time and don't get it.
Remarkable-Diet-7732@reddit
What IS "help"?? Chris Cornell was getting "help". Lots of people are getting it, and "help" doesn't help.
King-in-Council@reddit
You referring to MAID.
Keep trying. Clearly your answer to your road block wasn't, well better successful end my life so your experience is an outlier to those who scum. Because you can see the forest for the trees. It's a sickness that gives people tunnel vision. They lose sight of the bigger picture. It's why crisis invention is key and having adult discussion about it is important. We can't sugar coat it as a justified treatment to pain when it's not a cause of pain it's the suffering of pain that can be solved.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
I can't beleive you suggest fixing America as a solution to suicidality.
It's very nice to see the forest and not be so lost in the trees. Good for you that you're flying so high above those who can't. Ive been suicidal many times. No I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I wanted to drive my car into the trees. Calling them selfish and cowardly, I don't think that's helpful at all. And mental health 101? Yeah I'm an American. We don't have MAID. I had to look up what that was, friend. You sound a bit like rich people who don't understand why poor people go into debt to buy a car.
King-in-Council@reddit
Not at all what I said.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
That's what it sounded like. Care to reword.?
King-in-Council@reddit
updated
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
Ah. Jungian. OK.
I disagree with several of your points:
" people owe things to people.". - I think personal debts are completely subjective and you don't owe it to your family to always be there. Mental illness is an illness. Like so many others, it can kill you. If the suicidal had some other illness like heart disease or cancer would we blame them for dying? Maybe we would, because the more we learn about medicine the more responsibility for our health is placed at our feet when the reality is that where, when, and to whom you're born has a greater impact on your longevity and lifespan than anything else.
"The foundation of health care as an institution is understanding this concept that no one is an island and that we all need help" - Im not in Healthcare but Im not sure that is the foundational concept behind all of it exactly? Where did you get that?
"It is selfish to leave your brains on the floor to be cleaned up by someone (gun shot) or to have your mother find your hanging body in a tree next door to your wife who was sleeping, revealing your body hanging in regiamortis to your kids. That is profoundly selfish.". This is true but once again, if it was some other illness we wouldn't call these people selfish. I had to see my mom dead, sitting up in bed, because that's how she died in her sleep, sitting up, with her hands reaching up toward her own chest/throat. People die suddenly every day and other people find them that way, sometimes by accident, sometimes not. It doesn't have to be a suicide to be their own fault. It doesn't have to be suicide to traumatize your loved ones. People OD by accident. Is that a suicide? Is that selfish?
Full disclosure, I don't think people have free will. Which might be the simple disagreement at the root of this if you're a fan of Jung.
"major drivers are shame or chemical imbalance that be *easily* improved through equitable healthcare access" - ok 2 things. Easily? No. Equitable? Also. No. That's not a thing.
"Ultimately we don't agree on the social-moral injustice that makes it selfish and cowardly and you prioritize the ultimate personal sovereignty- damn the train driver who watches you walk in front of the train or the first responder who puts you in a body bag extracted from around a tree. Because your personal sovereignty is more important then these people. Or you just don't want to consider it: i.e we are all islands, we are not actually connected to each other.". - not quite. I think suicide is a reasonable course of action for some people in some circumstances. I also think planning ahead is a good thing and can mitigate some of this. Suicide doesn't have to be sudden, violent, and tumultuous and traumatic for everyone left behind. A plan, conversation without judgement and threats of forced psych analysis can make it much easier. I think we, make suicide the problem that it is. I wouldn't walk in front of a train or crash into a tree. The times when I felt I wanted to, I was definitely not thinking about first responders but not because I felt I had a sovereign right to end my life - that doesn't enter into it. When you can't fathom living anymore it's because you feel trapped. You feel the farthest thing from personal sovereignty. You feel your future is set in stone, you have no means to change it and no reason to think it will improve on its own and the condition you are in is no longer tolerable.
I like to think if I ever was to kill myself it would be well thought out and planned and discussed with my family ahead of time. That isn't very common around here, but I wouldn't want to do it the more selfish ways, suddenly, no warning, leaving a mess behind. Idk I'm tired and rambling now.
itsallfornaught2@reddit
Right? Suicide only makes sense if you can't possibly affect the wellbeing of someone you love. Otherwise it's just a selfish act.
King-in-Council@reddit
Yes and in my case it was my brother. And I heard people say he "made the right choice" because he was "struggling" & "in pain", and being "dysfunctional" and better to be dead then living in dysfunction. But that moron actually believes in Heaven and I'll "see him again in a better place, in a better time".
People are fucking stupid.
No what happened was he drank himself into a stupor and passed the point of no return sooner then he thought.
There's a reason why the vast vast majority of suicide survivors say in the moment just before it was too late suddenly clarity came to me and I realized I wanted to live.
Yes - the disease lost its grip on you. Crisis sobered you in time. The majority of suicide involve heavy heavy drinking before.
Equoniz@reddit
Can you link a source for that data?
King-in-Council@reddit
Well as someone involved in suicide prevention there exist data that says of survivors of suicide attempts 70% make no fewer attempts. Only 13% who survive their initial attempt go on to successfully end their life.
I find that data very compelling.
"ChatGPT citing psychology today:
A review of 90 longitudinal studies found:
7% eventually died by suicide (range 5–11%),
23% made another non-fatal attempt,
and 70% made no further attempts .
A longer Finnish study reported a 13% eventual death rate over 37 years .
Thus, while most survivors do not die by suicide, they remain at significantly higher risk than the general population"
Equoniz@reddit
So no, you can’t link any data?
King-in-Council@reddit
Can you justify suicide to me as a bravery? 2 paragraphs. I want you to play devil's advocate for me. Thanks.
rootshirt@reddit
We're still waiting on you to link the data for your claim.
King-in-Council@reddit
Are you incapable of forming a structured opinion or are you just someone who likes to reject negative words because they make you comfortable and desire people to hold your hand and bring forth data to justify your ignorance?
rootshirt@reddit
No way you just used ChatGPT as a legitimate source lmao
BlackDante@reddit
Sounds like you should really be talking to a therapist about how your brother's suicide has impacted you and your views of suicide instead of trauma-dumping on reddit
DJ3XO@reddit
I like how s/he responds to anyone but this comment.
Equoniz@reddit
You seem to be arguing against the view of suicide as “brave,” which is a word that you brought into the discussion. Nobody above said suicide was brave.
King-in-Council@reddit
It's the anthesis of cowardly which is the word that gets people clutching pearls
WhoRoger@reddit
You forgot to list the national suicide hotline, you helpful, helpful soul
King-in-Council@reddit
9-8-8 in Canada.
DaBingeGirl@reddit
Same. It's mass murder.
Rage_quitter_98@reddit
Essentially what it should be called from the get go - not suicide, thats something you do to yourself, you're a murderer if you do something like this including other souls - no reason to prettify such a horrible decision even when the human may have had his "reasons" for doing so imo
legit-a-mate@reddit
I think murder-suicide sums it up perfectly don’t you? It’s why it’s not called suicide-murder
Bristol_Buck@reddit
I thought ‘murder-suicide’ was so called because of the order it was done in.
You don’t tend to see the other way around all too often
cattdaddy@reddit
In this case, it’s technically suicide-murder, even if just by a few milliseconds
themulde@reddit
I don't know let's say that's an A320, if that plane was full that's like 1/180 suicide and 179/180 murder. That ratio is a bit lopsided to me.
BitterCrip@reddit
It's also important to categorise murder-sui ides as both because of prevention.
Things that reduce suicides also reduce murder-suicides.
ToeBeansCounter@reddit
No you don't understand suicide. Don't pretend you do. If you have been there, you will. If you want to try to start understanding it, watch the film 'Falling Down'.
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
Hahahhaah ok
AlmostSunnyinSeattle@reddit
Fame ≠ Infamy
lets-play-nagasaki@reddit
The kid was alright but it went to his head
Michikusa@reddit
How is that possible with three pilots
hermansu@reddit
All three were contemplating the same thing and they were coincidentally rostered together?
Exciting_Map_7382@reddit
Really unlikely, most probably one went out, min 2 should stay in the cockpit IIRC, either those 2 were suicidal (which is still unlikely IMO) so one of them got rid of the other, sedated through drink or something.
Again this is just speculation, but all 3 being suicidal and on top of that ready to take action would be really really really unlikely.
purpleplatapi@reddit
There was a FedEx flight Federal Express Flight 705where a pilot attempted to murder the other pilots for insurance fraud reasons. (Insurance wouldn't pay out for suicide). Anyway the pilots all survived and landed the plane, but it was a really close thing. I'm sure this pilot would have been aware of the flight.
pumpkinlord1@reddit
Thats not coincidence then.
ohwrite@reddit
The plane leveled off briefly. Perhaps someone was trying to stop the pilot in charge
Phil-X-603@reddit
TL;DR The F/O was a demoted captain who was mad at high level management, overcame the other pilots and took revenge by crashing the plane.
Apparently the F/O (who used to be a captain but got demoted) was very angry at MU's high level management,so he decided to crash the plane and put it in a dive. Then the other pilot tried to save the plane, which is why the plane rises up steeply halfway through the descent, but in the end the F/O overcame everyone and crashed.
Ok_Barber_3314@reddit
Maybe the solution is to make "Physician Assisted Suicide" accessible to all instead of parotting platitudes.
Think_Leadership_91@reddit
Then you don’t understand suicide
tsa-approved-lobster@reddit
A little circular, no?
Think_Leadership_91@reddit
Your statement is very dumb from a clinical standpoint
seadawgpurist@reddit
Your statement is very dumb from a commentary standpoint
Really really dumb
AudaciouslySexy@reddit
This.
AudaciouslySexy@reddit
No no some people do understand it. Me however! I don't understand it because I don't condone it and instantly have 0 regards or respect for anyone who tries to do it or anyone who successfully does it.
Thats the difference my friend, I at least know people understand it, I don't
N205FR@reddit
Here’s what I don’t understand: if the prevailing consensus is true, wouldn’t it be better to be fully transparent, from a safety concern aspect?
Prior to this, China held the world record for amount of flying hours in a row without accidents, I believe the first country to reach 100 million flights without an accident. If they reveal the cause here, they can CONTINUE to claim this, now probably over 110 million flights now, since it wouldn’t count as an accident. As “societally disruptive” as they think it’s going to be, it would also imply there’s nothing wrong with CRM training, nothing wrong with the controls of the world’s second most popular jetliner (also 2nd in China), nothing wrong with CFM56 engines, basically nothing fundamentally wrong. Think back to Azerbaijan, when it happened we were all wondering what mechanical failure could cause all three hydraulics to fail, when it was revealed to be missiles a day later, it brought relief- in a tragic way- that told us this was not a CRM issue, not a design issue, not a MX issue, but a one off criminal event.
Basically what I’m saying is they should be more transparent as that would restore some public confidence that it’s not an aviation safety issue.
Advanced-Reporter-15@reddit
perhaps the safety record is important, but a more crucial point to consider is that if such a suicide incident is real, it will trigger a widespread public outcry. from this perspective, the matter of the safety record becomes insignificant (at least in China)
VegaGPU@reddit
Their safety flying clock has already been resetted to 0 after the crash.
N205FR@reddit
If the prevailing consensus is correct, this wouldn’t count as an accident, in the same way that MH17, the Horizon Q400, Azerbaijan E190, don’t count as accidents, but criminal events.
TwoCapable8792@reddit
Even now, the CCP continues to conceal the truth.
Spzncer@reddit
Someone inside the plane decided to check out.
26635785548498061381@reddit
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess they were sitting somewhere towards the front...
Jo_Zhao@reddit
like in the cockpit
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
All you need to know is that it doesn't involve the aircraft or any of its components malfunctioning.
dedgecko@reddit
Not until Boeing designs an airplane that becomes aware and fights back.
Apptubrutae@reddit
That’s what the max8 did, but unfortunately it fought back against pilots who weren’t trying to crash the plane
Repulsive_Salary9402@reddit
The plane was too busy trying to commit suicide. via its flawed design.
dedgecko@reddit
Except the dumbass logic Boeing designed in was looking for the wrong problem.
We have such a long way to go.
cpt_ppppp@reddit
touché
RealPutin@reddit
Autopilot, but it punches you in the face when you try to crash the plane intentionally
DerpDaDuck3751@reddit
This is the HAL 9000 we want
PotatoFeeder@reddit
Stick shaker now shakes enough to yeet the pilots
threepin-pilot@reddit
autopugilist
lyfe_Wast3d@reddit
Erm they did.... That's the reason the super Max is no longer being made lol it caused the most fatalities and pilots couldn't override it
WetwareDulachan@reddit
So, MCAS?
PlannedObsolescence_@reddit
It's unfortunately possible for the autopilot to fight against the crew, they covered this in the 1980 documentary 'Airplane!' /s
FantasticFinance6906@reddit
Hard to imagine what “national security concerns” would justify providing a transparent explanation of what happened.
SuperFaulty@reddit
It's China. Every totalitarian state is obsessed with "controlling the narrative" as they're scared of looking bad/incompetent, because if that happens their population will no longer accept the fallacy they try to build, which is that "they know better" and that they are infallible.
FIakBeard@reddit
Now why does that sound familiar?
chunkymonk3y@reddit
Just look at how the Soviets handled the Chernobyl catastrophe.
okhospital487@reddit
Every ~~totalitarian~~ state
diligentphylantrop@reddit
Bro was spitting truth and y’all downvoted.
gogoguy5678@reddit
"Bro" was objectively lying, and "y'all" pointed it out.
diligentphylantrop@reddit
You guys just showed me why I will never be out of my job.
Repulsive_Dog1067@reddit
You mean that as long there are sensible people on internet it will always be work for Wuamo's?
35within5@reddit
If by “spitting truth” you mean deflecting with vagueness, then yes.
JanklinDRoosevelt@reddit
The Germanwings crash under similar circumstances was handled very transparently, and led to changes in EU legislation. Your point is not without merit, but there are clear and significant differences
Sea-Insurance-677@reddit
Yes, because no-one voted for Xi Jinping. Authoritarian regimes live in a permanent legitimacy crisis, every day hoping no-one shouts out "I didn't vote for these assholes" and everyone else joining in.
patrdesch@reddit
Anything embarrassing to the CCP is a national security of China. Remember, the CCP is the nation as far as the CCP is concerned. It doesn't matter what sane people would consider national security concerns, only what an establishment politician in China considers a threat to their own position or that of their superiors.
External_Weird_8251@reddit
The actual Chinese report I read is that it is national security (国安) and social stability (社会稳定). What happened is a HK newspaper filed the Chinese equivalent what'd be aa Freedom of Information Act request in the US for an update report re: the crash and CAAC responded that due to national security and social stability concerns it is unfit to be released to the public. This response then was posted to the internet (so it wasn't like CAAC came out and made this announcement). People are grumbling about it though. At least some are getting through censorship since it's appearing in my feeds.
RedditZhangHao@reddit
MU was originally established as a state-owned enterprise (SOE) in the 1950s. Although MU’s been publicly traded since the late 1980s (now on HKSE and SSE), it’s still primarily owned and controlled by the mainland government (>60%). Potentially, not an entirely convincing face saving effort after what some aviation experts reportedly view as possible pilot suicide.
gogoguy5678@reddit
MU aren't withholding details of the investigation - the CCP are.
RedditZhangHao@reddit
Yes, as directly implied by government majority ownership.
FantasticFinance6906@reddit
Completely understand. It was more of a rhetorical question. I know exactly why they don’t want to release details.
morganational@reddit
They don't like their population knowing about public strife because the CCP is scared of their population rising up and not being crushed under their thumbs.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
Do you think a one party, authoritarian government avoids being overthrown by disclosing national embarrassments and screw ups and advertising how they’re doing a bad job?
notthesupremecourt@reddit
The “national security concern” is embarrassing the Chinese
MissingWhiskey@reddit
I can understand someone wanting to end it all. I've battled that demon myself. But why on earth would you want to take all those people with you?
Gwenbors@reddit
Life insurance fraud, most likely. Won’t pay out for suicide, but will pay out for a workplace accident.
StarfishSplat@reddit
This was the case for that attempted FedEx hijacking in the 90s
cpt_ppppp@reddit
that's a certain kind if messed up to destroy the lives of dozens of families just for an insurance payout
Frap_Gadz@reddit
Lots of employers have death in service benefits too.
Flaky_Counter2531@reddit
Never hurts to try for the high score.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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morganational@reddit
I've always wondered the same thing. Maybe they just get so deeply depressed that they end up resenting anyone else that doesn't feel as horrible as they do. Either way, I've been in some dark places and I always only consider how my decision would affect those that rely on me, etc. As much as I can hate myself, and as shitty as people are and I definitely hate them, I would never even consider hurting others, it just doesn't make sense to me.
MidniteOG@reddit
To make a statement and disrupt the company that did you wrong
SweatyCount@reddit
Because you think you're doing them a favour
Amazing_Anxiety_818@reddit
Can someone smart please explain why this would be the case?
RealPutin@reddit
Because they're trying to cover up a pilot suicide.
cao8@reddit
Wasn't there 3 pilots? I definitely don't know much about this as i haven't kept up with it but can someone explain to me how this happened? If there were 3 and one wanted to end it all did he subdue everyone else? Just curious if anyone knows more details
TheFortunateOlive@reddit
Yes, probably. There was a similar incident with a Fed ex plane years and years ago.
Spirit-Hydra69@reddit
The FedEx incident honestly deserves a well made movie. It's truly crazy what those pilots went through and how they not only survived such a sudden vicious and pre-meditated attack, but were also eventually able to subdue the attacker and land the plane, whilst barely being able to maintain consciousness.
There's a nailbiting episode of either Mayday or Air Crash Investigations on this incident, on YouTube.
TheFortunateOlive@reddit
I agree, I remember watching the Mayday episode years ago.
That incident is such a display of how far you can push the human body when it's literally life or death.
istealpixels@reddit
Lufthansa too.
reductase@reddit
Germanwings to be specific, while Lufthansa owns them, it's technically different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
TheCygnusWall@reddit
Also most likely MH370
LaggyComputer11@reddit
mh370 is kinda different because even though the pilot killed everyone he likely didn't do it by piloting the aircraft into water but rather by turning off the pressurization so essentially everybody onboard suffocated
crooks4hire@reddit
Poor Tom Hanks
ajmartin527@reddit
If you’re an experienced pilot it’s probably not all that difficult to put the airplane into an unrecoverable position. Particularly if others aren’t anticipating it. Once you’re diving as fast as was listed above, if you don’t stay restrained you’d be flying all over the cockpit so it would become physically impossible to subdue someone else. While also trying to recover from whatever they did.
__joel_t@reddit
Also not hard if you're a pilot suffering from spatial disorientation (Atlas 3591).
WhoRoger@reddit
Large airliners are very slow to react, and have limits on how large changes can be. It would take several minutes to get the plane from a stable flight into something unrecoverable. You're definitely not gonna start flying around, no matter what a pilot does.
After the Lufthansa incident, pretty much all commercial airlines have adopted a rule of at least two crew members in the cockpit at all times.
If there was another pilot present, they didn't or couldn't react correctly.
9RMMK3SQff39by@reddit
Only thing I've flown is an X-Wing but I've watched enough Mentour Pilot to know this is wrong.
Wait till the other pilot is unbuckled and doing a checklist or something, kill the air pressure, hit TOGA, push full forward and deflection along with full rudder and hold trim down. The other pilot would be so surprised, confused and overwhelmed they won't be able to do much.
Could probably even do it with just the yoke controls without any of the rest.
Even if they are somehow still in their seat, get their mask on, pull back the throttle, they then need to fight for the controls against a person actively pushing.
Air France 447, I think, got into an upset by accident and even with 3 pilots actively trying to solve it they crashed in a couple min from cruise altitude.
igloofu@reddit
I don't know which type of plane this was, but even with a large airliner, if you stand on the rudder it will put the plane into an unset position very quickly. Takes less than 15 seconds for the plane to completely roll over, and while an unset recovery is possible and trained in the sim, if the other pilot was not buckled it, it would make it very very hard to subdue the pilot that did it, while also rolling for blue.
WhoRoger@reddit
It was a 737-800. So I looked it up and I guess you have a half-point, it has a max roll rate of 15 deg/s. I didn't think it's so nimble lol.
Not by just standing on a rudder tho, pitch and yaw angles are much more limited on a large plane like that, and you don't roll the plane over with that.
But even with a full roll, you don't get thrown off until the plane is at least rolled to the side, the G-Force will keep you in the seat for quite a while. Plus it's still a big plane and takes a while to react even to a roll, it's not a fitted jet.
This would probably need a pilot to pick apart, but I still doubt the rest of the crew didn't have at least 30s to react, probably more.
I suppose it's the case that pilots don't expect much to happen in a stable flight, but people still have a point questioning what were the other pilots doing.
Maybe Mentour Pilot will make a video about this.
RealPutin@reddit
30s?
Dude, airliners can roll much faster than they do in stable commercial flight. They're not fighter jets but it's not anywhere near as hard as you're claiming it is to put a plane in an unrecoverable position. Not sure why the hill you're choosing to die on is one that can be proven false in 2 minutes on Microsoft Flight Sim
SackOfCats@reddit
You are wrong and making people dumber.
Source: 737 check airman.
Charlie3PO@reddit
On an Airbus, which is more restrictive than Boeing, pushing the stick fully forwards in cruise will command negative G, i.e. gravity reverses. So everything and everyone unrestrained will hit the ceiling within a second or two.
AA587 was maneuvered so violently the structure failed in a matter of seconds, by accident. The 737 max aircraft reached -2G in a matter of seconds, i.e. everyone pinned to the ceiling/seatbelts, because a single flight control surface was moving in the nose down direction, while the pilots were trying to oppose it with other flight controls.
So yes, it's absolutely possible this was a case of the plane being put in an unrecoverable situation in seconds.
mnetml@reddit
AA587 didn't have "a control surface moving in a nose-down position", the PF played with the rudder pedals until the vertical stabilizer sheared off, which then led.to the plane's dive.
Charlie3PO@reddit
I'm aware. I listed it as an example. Just like I listed the 737 max accidents as additional examples.
Direct_Cabinet_4564@reddit
Are you an AI bot? AA587 was an Airbus A300.
Charlie3PO@reddit
Yes, it was, did I say it wasn't?
I'm not just talking about FBW airbus, I mentioned FBW airbus as the most restrictive case, but all airliners are capable of maneuvering aggressive enough to throw people around or even cause structural failure.
subarupilot@reddit
Way off my man.
Visible_Structure762@reddit
What??? Several minutes? What? Delete this
Schmasher@reddit
Many airlines have quietly dropped this rule I've always having two people in the flight deck.
eiland-hall@reddit
This assertion is false.
NedTaggart@reddit
That attitude in a modern airliner is intentional. It wasnt aerodynamically unstable, it was stable and pointed very down.
No-Baseball-9413@reddit
I read that after that they made Software Changes, that you normally can't stall an aircraft like this?
sniper4273@reddit
This wasn't a stall. This was a dive. Perhaps a very intentional dive.
AnOtherGuy1234567@reddit
Drug the tea/coffee?
Create a reason for them to leave the flight deck and barricade the door?
Assault?
eruditezero@reddit
'social stability concerns' indeed
auyemra@reddit
" picking quarrels & provoking trouble "
derpterd789@reddit
This guy Chinas
Jackw78@reddit
I think it's fair to criticize them for not officially admitting the most likely cause of the crash (which is obviously a pilot suicide), but it isn't really a cover-up. For an actual cover-up they would just fabricate things that few could verify instead of admitting everything about the plane being normal (mechanical/passengers/cargos/ATC) leaving only the crew intentions as an uncertainty, along with making a statement specificly saying releasing the most likely cause of the crash would be bad to social stability. It's basically implicitly referring the cause of crash as bad human intentions. For those interested in the cause of crash, it's already a public secret, and for those who aren't, releasing or not officially doesn't matter to them
Tripleberst@reddit
Citing national security is a fabrication. They take it as an embarrassment so they don't want the details to be public.
Jackw78@reddit
You don't think having suicidal passenger plane pilots flying around is a national security? Also it's an opinion/stance as a result of the crash rather than "concrete" evidence that would steer the investigation of the crash which is what fabrication means. Obviously the goal of crash investigation is to prevent further similar cases, in a case of pure bad pilot intentions instead of errors/failures it's not unreasonable for government to believe that officially announcing it might attract more imitators hence the national security/stability line. Not allowed to discuss it lol? Just go to rednote, bilibili, or Chinese tiktok and literally everyone is saying the obvious thing
ohwrite@reddit
Yep because everything’s perfect in China
kussian@reddit
I wouldn't call it a cover up. Chinese have very strict rules in their country. I think it's justified from their point of view.
However I personally still want to know what really happened. I like plane investigations and I think they provide more positive information rather then negative. I hope they disclose the report one day🙏
Viablemorgan@reddit
Hello, agent. Well done distracting from the cover-up. +1000 social points!
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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ProAvgeek6328@reddit
what is there to be covered up?
CoeurdAssassin@reddit
Wow and shit like that is exactly why even the smallest mental or psych issues get you barred from flying
MortimerDongle@reddit
Well, there are problems with that approach, too, because it leads to pilots hiding issues.
There really isn't a single good option. Ultimately, if humans can fly a plane, humans can crash one.
TogaPower@reddit
I’m glad that you acknowledge that there isn’t a single good solution. Because sure, let’s say the FAA becomes much more accepting with regard to pilots with a history of mental illness.
What happens when there’s then a suicide involving an airliner and it comes out that X airline let someone fly passengers despite having had a history of depression? PR nightmare and outcry from the public.
Unfortunately it will probably always be a messy topic without good solutions.
Brad4795@reddit
Sometimes life isn't fair, but to make life fair for one, and put 100+ other people at risk is the greater evil. There should be paths for mentally ill commercial pilots to take after getting help, but I'm not sure that forcing 100+ people to unknowingly take the risk too is okay
marksman1023@reddit
That's not the argument. It's not about making life more fair for the pilots at the expense of the passengers.
The argument is that if you go too stringent on barring pilots with any sort of mental health issue, pilots will just hide their mental illness and suffer in silence (and they do).
You've created a situation where someone suffering from an illness will conceal it to maintain their livelihood and try to get through it on their own without treatment.
Sometimes this works out and sometimes (likely in this case) it really, really doesn't. Not every mental health challenge makes someone a risk to themselves or others.
Brad4795@reddit
No you misunderstand me. I'm referring to something like a red-flag law. Not any mental health condition, but one that points to a real risk of harm for people. I'm also not saying to take away their licenses permanently, but there needs to be a stringent guideline and process for that after years of therapy, and then maybe on a case by case basis. They shouldn't lose their ability to fly, just take people with them when they do until we know it's safe. They shouldn't lose pay or be disgraced but supported.
marksman1023@reddit
Most issues don't take years.
Like, yeah, if someone got to the point where they're making a plan to kill themselves, that might take years. Or weeks or months.
After a relative's suicide attempt they were judged no longer a danger to themselves or others and discharged from inpatient care within six weeks. Granted additional monitoring was needed but they are fine to this day, years later, without relapsing.
Guthix_Wraith@reddit
I mean you don't even need a license to fly a Hummel Ultracruiser or similar ultra lights. You could almost always fly if you wanted.
seang239@reddit
If he was able to get help for his issues without killing his career, maybe he might not have done this?
Big-Grapefruit9343@reddit
What a dumb take. A little mental help could have prevented this and he could keep his job.
bravogates@reddit
If China wanted to blame Boeing, they’d done it years ago.
ledude1@reddit
Either that or political assassination, maybe? That's more of a national security issue, IMHO.
sublurkerrr@reddit
Jumping to conclusions. There were also two other pilots in the cockpit who could've overpowered a deranged pilot.
MortimerDongle@reddit
They're not jumping to conclusions. An intentional crash is reportedly the consensus from US government sources.
Until and unless China is willing to release their report, it's a safe assumption. Their odd behavior around the report also aligns with this.
szu@reddit
Yep this is normal Chinese government behaviour. Iirc the families of the victims have also been told to shut up and take the compensation money.
wimpwad@reddit
Ok, then answer the question and explain how the fuck a preliminary report on a civilian aircraft accident could ever possibly be a national security concern if everything was on the up and up. It's either one of the crew intentionally caused it or the incompetent Chinese military shot it down. One or the other. Legitimately no other possible explanations lol
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck ....
Zucc@reddit
Because anything that makes China look bad is a national security concern. Just like the old Soviet Union. And the new one.
TomcatF14Luver@reddit
Or like Russia, the PLA shot down a Civilian Airliner.
AbeFromanEast@reddit
Since 2018 China has begun restricting information that in free society's is just available. Things like court decisions, Masters and PhD theses, Government official biographies, Market Data such as corporate ownership records; all have either been removed from public access or restricted.
This is part of a trend.
Additional_Hippo_878@reddit
So, just like the Day-Glo Mussolini's Murika, then(?).
studpilot69@reddit
Examples?
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Scruffy_Nerf_Hoarder@reddit
I didn't know that providing evidence is considered political. Did you remove all the other political comments in this thread? They appear to still be up.
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Scruffy_Nerf_Hoarder@reddit
I tried to give an example of information that has been removed from a government website, but the comment was flagged for being political in this extremely political conversation. If you search the internet for info regarding crime rates of American citizens versus crime rates of people who are here "against the law", then you will find a link to a government website with the title of what you're looking for but the site itself states that the info was removed.
Additional_Hippo_878@reddit
Correct. Thank you.
Wingmaniac@reddit
https://share.google/y1qTvlHhtKtrpMo4w
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gefahr@reddit
Don't bother.
Celebration_Dapper@reddit
Since 2018? More like since 1949.
dean__learner@reddit
Yea not really.
China was way more open in the 00s and 10s until Xi really took an iron grip of things.
Celebration_Dapper@reddit
It certainly wasn't "more open" when I was there (1988 through 1990).
WWYDWYOWAPL@reddit
What’s funny is that my masters theses about drone photogrammetry has been downloaded the most by Chinese agencies/institutions by a wide margin
The_Shryk@reddit
Think anyone will make full sized cities inside games using the data? 1:1 Tarkov style game set inside a real city mapped via drone?
420GP@reddit
Do you have a link to it? I wouldn’t mind giving it a read.
Equoniz@reddit
Don’t ask people for things with identifying information. They might link it without thinking.
morganational@reddit
Which is why GI Joe always said "Don't LINK 'til you THINK". 🫵😎👍
eiland-hall@reddit
Porkchop sandwiches? Oh shit! Get the fuck outta here!
morganational@reddit
Who wants a body massage?
EverGivin@reddit
Okay chairman
morganational@reddit
🤣
abcpdo@reddit
dji should've sent you a job offer
IndigentPenguin@reddit
Why would they? They’ve already copied his work.
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Aggressive_Hat_9999@reddit
must be hate speech crimes
Few-Ability-7312@reddit
Basically the Chinese state archives are becoming a Black Hole like that in Moscow
FantasticFinance6906@reddit
I’m going to go with “because it’s China, who is known for their factual transparency.”
G25777K@reddit
China = Iceburg
Outsiders only get to see 25% of what they want to tell you, the other 75% you will never know.
Slippery fish is an understatement and they will always point the finger at someone else before they admit responsibility.
SohryuAsuka@reddit
Nah, I’d say 25% is a very conservative estimate.
Source: Chinese citizen here
G25777K@reddit
Well depends on the business and how far you have to go up the red party :)
As you well know it all goes up stream, especially when your dealing with Chinese companies that have strong ties to the lord and master.
AbnormallyBendPenis@reddit
It’s a pilot suicide. The CCP is extremely sensitive when it comes to stuff like this. Anything that paints Chinese society as dystopian, oppressive, unfairly competitive, and corrupt is automatically censored
iambobanderson@reddit
Something about calling this a suicide seems wrong. More like pilot mass homicide.
poop-azz@reddit
It's a murder suicide but mass murder because you're an unhappy POS who steals the lives of others and ruins the lives of hundreds if not thousands who live on. Sad.
Old-Lemon4720@reddit
You don't call a school shooting or a mass shooting at a church / mall to be a murder-suicide do you? No it's just mass murder with suicide at the end because you're too chickenshit to face the consequences. This guy wasn't trying to kill himself, he was just trying to kill a lot of other people and ruin a lot of lives and then take the easy way out. If this event was survivable I'm sure he would have.
ChikaraNZ@reddit
Or, suicide bomber - he just used the plane as the bomb. Really not much different to someone who walks into a crowded market and blows themselves up with a traditional bomb.
Dardow40@reddit
Simple question - who said it was the pilot who deliberately caused this? Outside of official Chinese channels, where’s the proof? Genuine question as it seems the Chinese are very good at controlling the narrative and the western press hit lap that shit up because they do not care.
TipsyMJT@reddit
Yeah just calling it a suicide is not accurate. Dude could have offed himself the good ole fashioned way and only hurt himself but no he decided he'd take 131 other people with him. He's mass murderer and deserves no sympathy. No different than Steven paddock.
Sufficient-Ad-6788@reddit
Steven Paddock le lulz
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Molniato@reddit
Wtf I mean it wouldnt even be directly the CCP fault if a pilot decides to commit suicide with the airplane he's piloting murdering hundreds of people; it's the pilot's personal, atrocious choice and it's still HIS personal responsability I think... but the CCP politicians are so paranoid and control freak and therefore fear that everything bad that happens in the society can be linked to them. Single party countries...
michael0n@reddit
Mentally unstable people often don't have "choice". What do you think "mentally unstable" means? The issue is that China doesn't like the concept of mental instability, and such, programs and mechanisms to detect people who become unstable are not implemented.
zzplus24@reddit
If a pilot decides to kill everyone on board after getting divorced, could an unhappy bus driver, upon learning of this incident, develop the idea of imitation? If there's a risk of copycat crimes, it's better to let as few people as possible know about it.
michael0n@reddit
You don't need to go so far as social. Lots of airlines have procedures in place to detect uncommon, strange and flat out deceptive behavior. Unfortunately China is historically not a place where these kind of topic is discussed openly. Precautions and programs can't be implemented by companies even if they want to do that due to those sensitivities.
Lost_Pollution_6782@reddit
You sound like a unhinged child name calling EVIL CEE CEE PEE as a reasonable explanation to anything out of the ordinary that might happens in China. Even a civil aviation accident must be some dystopian "CCP" secret plot, featuring a 1970s James Bond-like evil communist regime antagonists; serious-faced men in soviet-era grey suits in a dark room with a wall of hundredd of screens showing live footage of civilians. There are many people in Reddit with this fantastical line of reasoning and what is scary is that many believe this is how real life really works.
Xenonnnnnnnnn@reddit
+100000 social credits
AbnormallyBendPenis@reddit
I am literally from China and your understanding of CCP is naive at best.
Mike__O@reddit
How many social credit points do you get for posts like this?
pyxl8ted@reddit
This reply sounds like AI.
Spark_Ignition_6@reddit
Except, in this case, it's valid.
The accident isn't a CCP plot, but the cover-up by the government literally is.
eatsocks@reddit
This comment is so frustrating because it paints Chinese people as complete idiots with zero thinking skills just so you can somehow boast about how well you think you know China works.
First of all, China pretty much NEVER. Reports. On. Suicides. They publish statistics but never focus oj individual cases. Maybe it is because of the reasons you stated and Chinese people are too stupid to realize they’re living in such an awful place and Chinese society is one suicide report away from collapsing.
Or maybe, just like many other Western countries in the world, they avoid reporting on suicides because they want to avoid copycat cases. They don’t want to give attention to people who not only want to commit suicide but also commit mass murder on their way out.
People on Chinese social media already suspect pilot suicide. They know that because If it is the fault of the manufacturer, the government would immediately act on it like Boeing 737 MAX in which they banned airlines from flying it. If it’s the fault of the airline (I.e poor maintenance), they know the government would not bail them out just because they’re a big company (Remember Evergrande?).
Chinese people aren’t idiots that need everything to be spelt out to them. They know the silence suggests murder-suicide and unlike the US, they probably don’t feel the need to give a celebrity spotlight to a mass murderer.
eepyCrow@reddit
Too bad you can't censor censorship.
readySponge07@reddit
Imagine the comments if this were in India...
Bobba-Luna@reddit
It may have been shot down, at least that’s what it likes like to me. 😔
Quaternary23@reddit
Nope, it’s in a nose dive and that “smoke” is just bad camera quality. Pilot suicide 100%. Cope
Immediate-Spite-5905@reddit
person from Hong Kong here, national security is a vague term used to cover up everything the CCP doesn't like, most likely this one was corruption or pilot suicide
plhought@reddit
Read Flying Upside Down.
Everything will make sense.
Roshap23@reddit
Looks intentional. If pilots were actively trying to save the plane wouldn’t we see more of a glide than a total nose dive? What malfunctions cause nose dives? Not a pilot so genuinely asking.
Charlie3PO@reddit
It was likely intentional, however there are non-malicious problems which can cause similar flight paths. In fact there have been dozens of crashes over the years where airliners have ended up in very steep descents like this video due to various accidental issues.
In the past, a few things which can cause steep descents have been flight control malfunctions, such as rudder hardcover, MCAS, engine failure which is poorly managed, the list goes on. Even a mishandled stall can cause an aircraft to end up inverted and/or in a near vertical descent. None of these appear to be the case in this crash though, because they'd have released it ages ago.
Deliberate pilot inputs with a perfectly normal plane can easily cause this sort of flight path as well. It's not always malicious though. Spatial disorientation can occur where the pilot on the controls loses awareness of which way the plane is pointing in bad weather or at night.
This can be minor, where nothing bad happens other than a few seconds of confusion. Or, it can be so severe that experienced pilots accidentally roll their aircraft into steep turns, descents or even upside down thinking they are levelling the wings (this typically results in near vertical descents). It's a very real phenomenon and generally causes numerous fatal crashes per year in smaller aircraft. Also occasionally on bigger aircraft.
Given the number of potential accident ways to end up in that situation, this video alone gives zero indication that it's deliberate as opposed to accidental. However when combined with leaked information and a lack of any other official info mechanical or accidental causes, we have to assume a strong possibility it was deliberate.
Roshap23@reddit
Really appreciate the thorough explanation.
Ender_D@reddit
Since it’s a 737, doesn’t Boeing get some say/involvement in the investigation?
Quaternary23@reddit
Yes they were involved and the investigation found that the plane was fine. Everything else aside from pilot suicide was ruled out. Also: https://airlinegeeks.com/2025/06/27/report-on-deadly-crash-withheld-over-national-security-concerns/
bbbbb_siu@reddit
Everything in Chi Na involves national security. I'm not surprised.
Hu1Kulas@reddit
they are copying naratives from US 😄😄
fluffygirl999@reddit
Full force
Dankecheers@reddit
China trying to cover up a scandal? What a shocker!
JunglePygmy@reddit
Can you possibly imagine how horrifyingly intense the last few moments on that plane must have been for the passengers. Flying straight fucking down. Ugh
A321200@reddit
Chinese pilot killed everyone.
AiMwithoutBoT@reddit
Yes thanks for pointing out that we watched the same video.
N0DuckingWay@reddit
Well there goes any chance of me flying china eastern - a crash is one thing but the government withholding the report is concerning.
sheephunt2000@reddit
What's interesting is that China has actually had a pretty good safety record aviation-wise, despite this concerning behavior from the CAAC.
imallowinit@reddit
flew with them recently, was not aware of this 😬
mane1896@reddit
I’ve flew internal flights in China and this incident was very much on my mind beforehand!
NoDescription2192@reddit
Why aren't there cameras in the cockpit to review things like this? Seems like every other mode of transportation has cameras.
Killer_of_Kings@reddit
I dead ass thought I was looking at a missile strike from Israel or something. Such a sad story…
Not____007@reddit
How is that even possible? Just a yoke fully down or something but even then wouldn’t the various forces somewhat keep the plane at an angle?
i_rub_differently@reddit
No, they first inverted the aircraft and then pulled up. It happened the same way previously with another airline in Indonesia region,it was a suicide attempt by the captain
Darryl_Lict@reddit
Man, there must have been some crazy screaming from the passengers.
MidniteOG@reddit
It dropped from 20k(?) And then leveled at 8k, just to drop again and make impact. Wild
WillingnessOk3081@reddit
that's what blows my mind about this
Not____007@reddit
With three officers in the cockpit how did the guy manage to even do that?
Prof_X_69420@reddit
In the indonesia case they were able to save the plane?
Jaxx1992@reddit
No. The first officer was out of the cockpit when the captain put the plane into a dive.
Tachanka-Mayne@reddit
Yep yoke fully down, and stabiliser trim (which is more than sufficiently strong on the 737)
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
It’s not suicide it’s murder.
dpatt11795@reddit
So it was Covid 19?
morganational@reddit
What am I looking at here?
Quaternary23@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735
MultiSteveB@reddit
This incident was three years ago. Is there some new information?
Quaternary23@reddit
https://airlinegeeks.com/2025/06/27/report-on-deadly-crash-withheld-over-national-security-concerns/
Chemical_Refuse_1030@reddit
No. The new annual report was supposed to be published in March, but it wasn't. In May this year, this happened (from Wikipedia article):
"On 19 May 2025, in response to an open government information request, the CAAC said that it decided not to release the final investigation report to the public because releasing the report might "endanger national security and societal stability".[4][5]"
I have no idea why is this post posted today, one month later.
Quaternary23@reddit
https://airlinegeeks.com/2025/06/27/report-on-deadly-crash-withheld-over-national-security-concerns/
ChernobylBunnies@reddit
Fast becoming the #1 cause of plane crashes
ProAvgeek6328@reddit
What do they have to hide?
bilkel@reddit
Yeah. File it with COVID-19
Defiant-Nail8326@reddit
so did the piliot nosed dive the airplane
Possible-Sell-74@reddit
Inverted and pulled up.
AnOtherGuy1234567@reddit
No suggestion from China that it was an aircraft design or maintenance issue. Good weather, no dangerous cargo on board.
With the plane reportedly falling vertically/nose down. Reaching near supersonic speeds.
Longjumping-Job-2544@reddit
Annual
DarthDork73@reddit
And america never lies/covers up their own plane crashes?
MortimerDongle@reddit
Can you give an example?
Even AA 5342, which was literally caused by a military aircraft, was not covered up or falsified
DarthDork73@reddit
Nevermind the 2 whisleblowers that boieng killed when they were testifying before the american senate last year during boieng safety hearings because the 787's are made with the cheapest Chinese parts and will fail all the time.
seang239@reddit
You knowing about that would imply things aren’t being covered up now wouldn’t it?
DarthDork73@reddit
They tried to warn everyone to not use the 787's because they are "flying coffins" amd "disasters waiting to happen" but none of you know about this, this is the very definition of covering it up from the public. You had zero idea about th9s before I told you about it...that is a cover up, how do you not understand this?
seang239@reddit
Same with trains when they 1st came out. People were never meant to travel 15mph! They’re death traps!
This happens each time a sufficiently advanced technology, like composites for wings, comes on scene and it’s only the engineers who really understand what they’re doing and what’s ok and what’s not.
Those jets have how many flights under their belts at this point? How many years in the air? How many flights every single day? Exactly.
Just wait for the reports and you’ll better understand what happened.
DarthDork73@reddit
So building trains centuries ago is the same as one of the engineers of the 787 itself calling them death traps because of the cheapest Chinese parts is the same to you?
seang239@reddit
I’d like to hear what credentials you have to support the allegations you’re throwing around. Once you substantiate that you understand the engineering decisions that were made we can have a deeper conversation about this.
The respective engineering design teams signed off or the jets wouldn’t have been shipped to the airlines, end of subject. They now have 15+ years of service. You don’t know why a jet that’s been flying for a dozen years went down. If that particular jet had issues, it would likely be the responsibility of the airline considering how many inspections/over hauls it would have had over the dozen years it’s been flying. Are you saying all those maintenance technicians across all these airlines are complicit? They all put their livelihoods and freedom on the line every time they sign off saying a jet is airworthy.
Doesn’t common sense tell you that engineers are also personally responsible for the projects they put their stamps on? Would you stamp a design and put your career, livelihood, and freedom, at risk for something you didn’t think would fly? For what? A paycheck? Get real.
DarthDork73@reddit
Prove drones can't lift things, prove to me every single video ever of a drone lifting something is wrong..doesn't amazon use drones to deliver packages? It shouldn't be possible right? Oh wait, those aren't Chinese drones, just made in China...
seang239@reddit
You’re the one saying the 787 can’t fly and it’s a coffin. It’s on you to prove that, not me.
DarthDork73@reddit
All you have to do is search online about the boeing safety hearings last year (which I already mentioned) when one of the engineers of the plane itself (12 whistleblowers came forward, 2 didn't live long enough to finish testifying before the american senate) was in front of the american senate and warning everyone not to use it. Claiming the video doesn't exist because you aren't smart enough to search for words on your own on the internet does not prove me wrong.
seang239@reddit
I made no such claim about any videos and I’m done with your childish antics. If you want people to take you seriously, you should work on delivering your message without the ad hominem attacks. Have a good night.
DarthDork73@reddit
I love when americans use the r*tard card to get out of failures...
DarthDork73@reddit
Drones can lift things, why do I need to prove drones can lift things? Have you never seen videos of drones lifting things? No? That Chinese racism again?
seang239@reddit
The 787 isn’t a drone.
DarthDork73@reddit
Wrong comment...
DarthDork73@reddit
I always love talking with americans, education is illegal in america so the things you guys say because of memes amd when someone proves you wrong is absolutely ridiculous and hysterical.
seang239@reddit
What proof exactly are you referring to? I only see unfounded accusations and childish insults from you.
DarthDork73@reddit
How do you not know that video exists of drones lifting things? For many years. Wtf is wrong with you? Besides being american?
DarthDork73@reddit
The first 787 crashed and none of you know about the troubles and warning with using the 787's and are surprised that a newer 787 crashed. Knowing about the story but none of the specific details is covering up the story you know?
seang239@reddit
That newer 787 as you called it was flying for a dozen years before it went down. I have zero doubt there will be reports released detailing the findings. It won’t be covered up.
DarthDork73@reddit
Why do americans change the meanings of words when proven wrong all the time?
DarthDork73@reddit
When it first crashed, all your r*tards where asking how such a new plane could crash, it was only 12 years old...
DarthDork73@reddit
Need for plane is around 10 years old. Just because you don't understand words does not make me wrong.
Quaternary23@reddit
Give one example of that buddy. Oh wait, you can’t.
starzuio@reddit
How would you be able to cite specific examples if they've been covered up?
Quaternary23@reddit
That’s because they haven’t been covered up. Nice fail at being a conspiracytard though.
starzuio@reddit
It'd be really easy to cover it up, you only need federal agencies and other state associated employees to be in on it.
Quaternary23@reddit
Sure liar sure.
AutisticToasterBath@reddit
No all reports are made public and the cause of the accident is released. China is completely blocking release of the cause of the accident.
Trying to compare the top speaks volumes of how room temperature your IQ must be.
Exciting-Possible773@reddit
Suicide isn't a problem. Suicide by cops isn't new.
What's in China is that, people try to suicide by cops, or simply just want to take someone with them, by ramming their cars to school kids, randomly chopping people etc, and this dude with a FREAKING plane.
Bin Laden got a reason (at least for themselves) to ram a few planes to skyscrapers, it doesn't need one in China and this is one of the few occasions CCP does not lie with the situation.
What they do lie though, is what caused the situation.
DanManRT@reddit
At least we can be sure it wasn't anything with the plane 🤷🏻♂️ this is just China trying to save face
MortimerDongle@reddit
Yep, you can bet if there was anything they could blame on Boeing we'd have heard about it years ago
Repulsive_Dog1067@reddit
The day China has a plane that they want to sell and can compete with Boeing leaks will start that it was a plane issue.
tenzindolma2047@reddit
As long as they know and we know the reason of the crash (suicide of pilot), then whether the report is released or not is no longer important
Automatic-Daikon2902@reddit
Holy shiet, that went down like a missile!
lire_avec_plaisir@reddit
On the video there's a slight pause when part of the aircraft comes into view; I'm guessing it's a recorded video? It's just odd there's a pause, unless someone put that in there.
m1ke_tyz0n@reddit
Isn't this the flight Miss Fang Fang was on? The Spy that was with Swalwell?
FriedBaecon@reddit
I doubt the instructor was a first officer. He was probably doing an initial training for the left hand seat captain and the second officer was safety copilot. Initial trainings require safety copilot until the trainee has cleared solo.
halfty1@reddit
No it’s pretty clear that he had the actual rank of first officer. Which means he was demoted/punished for an unknown reason. Which is likely one of the reasons why he probably did it and likely one of the reasons why the report is being withheld. Remember China Eastern is a government owned airline.
Eastern-Emotion9685@reddit
Can anyone give context
Quaternary23@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735
MidniteOG@reddit
Reports of pilot suicide
PrestegiousWolf@reddit
Please explain the context, can someone explain this?
Quaternary23@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735
MidniteOG@reddit
Reports of pilot suicide and government not releasing that info
Beahner@reddit
How very…..Chinese…..
Dry-Marketing-6798@reddit
Maybe some CRM/HF concerns there.
Quaternary23@reddit
Nope, most experts have agreed this is highly likely a pilot “suicide” case.
Dry-Marketing-6798@reddit
So even more relevance for CRM/HF, then. Do you even know what I'm talking about?
Quaternary23@reddit
Yes? How is pilot suicide CRM/HF?
dedgecko@reddit
Goddamn, not sure if I’d seen this before.
I recall the landscape post-crash images (AVHerald and elsewhere). Just nothing to see seen but upset ground and burnt trees. This thing went deep.
Qbite@reddit
It was obliterated beyond any recognition, but it did go deeply into the ground as it made impact
threepin-pilot@reddit
defense research into their bunker buster? Massive ordnance piloter.
1320Fastback@reddit
Dam that thing came straight down!
Darryl_Lict@reddit
Yeah, I was waiting for a slowly descending jet terminating in a fireball.. That was a missile straight down.
_Jetto_@reddit
Just so sad and terrifying for those on board it just saddens me that this happened. I’m angered yet also really sad. Is there anything other pilots can do to prevent something like this?
Spmethod2369@reddit
Pathetic
Smart_Abrocoma508@reddit
Maybe it had a mid-air collision with one of their “weather balloons”?
ic_97@reddit
That pilots social credit has dropped faster than the plane
WummageSail@reddit
He won't even be able to rent an apartment.
WTDoor_Cynic@reddit
.
WTDoor_Cynic@reddit
,,, z3b
HuuugeTalent@reddit
This video is not clear enough to know what I’m looking at. If it’s a plane and it’s spinning and that’s why it’s hard to see the wings or it’s just bulleting for the ground. Then it is what it is. Otherwise, my supposition is that this is not a plane and it’s a drone and they shot that plane down or some other incident
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
This thing crashed year ago, it’s not a drone. A 737 pilot decided to commit suicide and nosed it over.
But, as expected, the CCP/CAAC has decided to ignore all international norms and has spent the last couple of years attempting to cover up what happened.
Derp800@reddit
Oh, Egypt 990 all over again. This time in China.
HuuugeTalent@reddit
Ok…so the Chinese cover things up got it.
arjunyg@reddit
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
Thanks yeah, couldn’t remember the exact timing, just remembered they initially tried to use Covid as an excuse to keep people out.
FantasticFinance6906@reddit
The video was widely shown when it happened. It was a 737 NG that was seemingly nosed over by one of the pilots intentionally. After some initial information came out that noted it was due to pilot inputs it’d been quiet as a church mouse.
TexasBrett@reddit
Ned to maintain that “social stability”. 🙄