Looks like the Market spoke, and they are not having the awful 4 cylinder...
Cutting the engine in half in the C63 has to be one of the biggest automotive blunders ever. The V8 is the literal only reason anyone buy them.
>At the end of the day it's your customers that are buying your cars, not politicians and bereaucrats that push CAFE and emissions.
Sure, but the politicians and bureaucrats can basically ban a product or make it completely unaffordable and therefore unsellable anyway. There's a reason why hot hatches simply don't exist in France anymore. Because of emissions taxes, the GR Yaris costs €92,290 for the manual and €108,800 for the auto.
There are countries in the EU where the BMW M3 is more expensive than the BMW M5, because the latter is a PHEV and therefore performs better on the emissions test.
> emitting massive amounts of co2 without paying for it isn’t a good idea.
The most economically efficient method is a net-carbon excise tax and/or increase in fuel tax.
That taxes the actual GHG emissions, instead of taxing the road vehicle capable of GHG emissions.
The politicians don't care. They won't touch the sacred cow that is commercial aviation, though, because a economy class ticket to suddenly costing the same as a current First Class ticket would be *really* unpopular amongst the mainly younger cohort who are pushing Governments into these policies.
> They won't touch the sacred cow that is commercial aviation, though
Except they literally did [ban short haul flights.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65687665.amp)
If it doesn't make sense to sell the car in a form the consumer would actually purchase, just kill it. No sense in wasting R&D dollars on a product which is doomed to failure.
It does raise an interesting question regarding market segmentation. The EU is starting to separate from the rest of the globe from a car enviro standpoint. At what point do European automakers acknowledge that a global sales strategy is unfeasible?
Nah the US are the ones getting further away from the main strategy. EV‘s dominate in China and they are still growing quite substantially in Europe. But your point stands, the times of one unified car costumer across the globe are over
China's policy is binary (EV vs. IC) and generally miss-aligned with the design of these EU based cars (small displacement hybrids). It's almost a trifurcation, with (i) China and (ii) the EU operating on their respective islands, while (iii) most of the remaining countries have relatively permissive IC policies (E.g., US, LATAM, Africa, ME, Canada, Australia, etc.).
So does most of Europe, except Norway I guess. Only NA has the wealth to afford these cars and the oil production to sustain ICE at low fuel costs.
Imagine if gas was $10/gallon in the US. How many people would factor in the V8 vs I4 vs EV in their purchasing.
Even here in Canada, where electricity is dirt cheap and fuel is middle of the pack priced EVs make much more sense. Break-even on the price disparity between ICE and EV versions of cars is near 3-4 years.(My car, an EV costs me around $15/month to drive and my wife's car, a v6 jeep is $200 for basically the same range.)
But the first thing they needed to do if they wanted people to move to EVs was to take the burden of cost of ownership off the consumer before making dumb laws to force people to switch. Nobody likes to be pushed into doing something.
In the US, electricity can get expensive in some areas, so 'going green' is costly.
One thing that's missing from that logic though is that frequently, the smaller displacement engine actually isn't much better in fuel economy. A big, lower stress V8 can often match a highly stressed turbo 4 for real world economy, while delivering a more desirable throttle response, sound, and powerband, as well as frequently better reliability.
Yes, but there are caveats there with forced induction vs N/A and the mixture ratios each allow. With a high gear ratio on the V8 to get it down to low rpm and at least moderate load, it'll frequently match or even exceed the mileage of the turbo 4, which generally has to run rich during boost.
Lol, no. No it won't. No point in arguing with someone this detached from reality, but there's a reason the entire world moved from big V8s to small turbocharged engines, and the reason is the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
Yes, and that reason is that a lot of countries went to a displacement based taxation system rather than one based on fuel consumption.
Someone here is detached from reality, but it isn't me.
Displacement-based tax is far less predominant in Europe than it was during the 20th century. The UK today taxes cars partly on CO2 emissions, which is a proxy for fuel economy of the car.
>Imagine if gas was $10/gallon in the US. How many people would factor in the V8 vs I4 vs EV in their purchasing.
I see the point you're trying to make but I've personally given up on the concept of the rational American consumer. It's been 5 years of people bitching non-stop about restaurant prices and BS surcharges on everything from deliveries to concerts, and yet there is barely a sign of consumer spending slowing down in these areas.
In other words, if I imagine $10 gas in the US, the only thing I see changing is a number on a pump.
It's way more blunt than that. China doesn't want to be dependent on foreign powers to provide a core service to its citizens. We've all seen how reliance on oil in the middle east has influenced American politics and policy making.
EVs provided an opportunity for their domestic companies to leapfrog foreign makers in a single generation of vehicles. They invested hard and frankly it's wildly successful. The rest of the world should take note.
Additionally, it has dramatically cleaned up the air in many of their major cities. And for a reason that this sub generally ignores - the replacement of the mopeds with electric alternatives.
> If it doesn't make sense to sell the car in a form the consumer would actually purchase, just kill it.
Hence the reason why the U.S. has few new cars, especially from automakers who have the option of selling nearly as many units as trucks (or legally trucks).
Europe, China, US, all very heavy-handed in tweaking their rules to give hometown advantages. And because of that, their domestic cars are getting more and more specialized to that specific market. Which also means losing their presence overseas.
And who wins? Toyota and Hyundai-Kia, who both have relatively small home market and in turn very good at optimizing their cars for a lot of different local needs and tastes.
We're only hurting ourselves with our protectionism.
whats up with that GR Yaris price? is there any some sort of tax you have to pay after buying it? I got into Toyota France and the Automatic sells for 52k euros?!
There's a reason why Renault shuttered RenaultSport and the only hot hatch Alpine makes right now is an EV based on the Renault R5.
Even Peugeot are reincarnating the 208GTi as an EV for the same reason.
Basically, the French are taxing small combustion engined performance cars out of existence while the lumbering big hybrid performance cars like the M5 and all the supercars get a pass because their size and price point make putting a PHEV powertrain into them feasible.
Which of course was the point. These bureaucrats don't want us regular, ordinary folks to enjoy cars and driving any more. In fact, they don't want us to drive at all.
Thank god the government banned big evil engines in smaller cars that get 30+ mpg because of their smaller frontal are so we can all buy massive big mobiles that struggle to get the same with an unreliable turbo engine and hybrid system.
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> or the G-Wagon EV
The electric G-wagen is 13% of total sales at $162K starting price. The EV market in the US is about 10% of total vehicle sales, and much less than that at the G-wagen's price point. With all that context I'd say it's doing well. It just sounds like Mercedes had stupid expectations for it.
It's a really cool car that probably wouldn't have been made if their projections were realistic. Between this and the LC500 I have to wonder if the development teams for niche cars know what to expect but fluff the numbers to get the projects approved. It's conspiracy theory thinking, but it's hard to believe these enormous successful companies could get it so wrong when there's plenty of public data suggesting what sales will be.
These enormous successful companies are run by people. If the people who want to build an electric G Wagon are high enough in the food chain, it will be built as the numbers will be rigged to match their will.
Those politicians are owned by fossil fuel interests and are forcing humanity into self-annihilation (not to mention everything else that lives on Earth).
The EV Charger's problem, above all else, is the price. If they brought back the ICE Charger, but it was similarly in the $70K+ market, it would be a problem.
Had the EV Charger released next to the ICE model, and been in the $50K range, it would probably be fine.
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I feel like the A45 would’ve sold well in the US depending on the price. Hot hatches do pretty well in the US. It would’ve been in the same price range as RS3 and M2 while being different at the same time. Mercedes also doesn’t have a sporty car in the US that people like in the 50-70k price range. The a35 would’ve probably killed the Golf R off the market too
>We dont get thr A45 in the US
yeah , i get it ! still a generalization , no matter who it’s aimed at ..
>, but we do get the CLA45, but at its price point you can get a M2 with the S58 that just blows away the CLA45
agreed !
The 4 cylinder isn't awful. It's a fantastic engine in the right application. It just doesn't have the rumble or character of a V8. I think Mercedes is smart starting to sell it to other manufacturers like Lotus.
Volvo has been running a twin-charged I4 hybrid layout for several years now, and it is a competent system that all of their sedans come with.
It's more of a slap in the face when 63 directly means V8, but out of nowhere, without reason, they randomly decide it means I4/I6. It would have been less insulting if they had just got rid of the 63 instead of calling it an AMG C/S 43/53 with EQ power or something like that.
Yeah kinda, I think the first gt's history is more about Ford making something fast than it is "must be a V8". The mustang GT without a V8 is just weird though
> Volvo has been running a twin-charged I4 hybrid layout for several years now, and it is a competent system that all of their sedans come with.
> It's more of a slap in the face when 63 directly means V8
I find it interesting that you use Volvo as an example as the 8 in the "T8" badge on Volvos used to mean that it had a V8 and now the T8 is an I4 hybrid.
Yup. T6 used to mean inline 6 and T5 used to be a turbo 5 cylinder. Now T6 means inline 4 with turbo+supercharger and T5 means turbo 4 cylinder. Pretty dumb naming scheme.
> Pretty dumb naming scheme.
I mean they gotta have some naming scheme right...?
And when turbos came around displacement based naming went away as no one wanted to buy a Merc C40 AMG to replace their C63 AMG
> I find it interesting that you use Volvo as an example as the 8 in the "T8" badge on Volvos used to mean that it had a V8 and now the T8 is an I4 hybrid.
Everyone used to badge with displacement = the badge.
And then in mid 2000s that went away, and has not been the case for 2 decades.
I thought this was widely understood that the number doesn't equal the displacement??
Lexus LS600h is a 5.0L with hybrid.
BMW F30 325i was a six cylinder, then a 2.0L turbo.
No one wanted to re-brand to have the next model "less" than the previous one, so they kept the numbers and turned them into 'trims'.
> It's more of a slap in the face when 63 directly means V8, but out of nowhere, without reason, they randomly decide it means I4/I6.
63 has a been a trim for a while now, displacement based model naming hasn't been a thing.
63 meant 6.2L V8 and naturally aspirated, then it meant 4.0L twin turbo V8
I know people are really attached to V8s, but labelling models according to their displacement went away a while back
BMW's 325i meant six cylinders until the F30 gen in 2012 when it had a 2.0L i4 turbo.
LS600h before then meant "5.0L + hybrid" in 2007.
63 doesn't necessarily mean V8.
It'd have to be a relatively large 6 cylinder > 5 liters of displacement with a fine tuned exhaust system. The old tried and true 5.9 Cummins ISB (yes, I know, turbod and diesel) make plenty of noise, and most people with AMG money don't want to have that I6 drone. It'd probably need a couple silencers per pipe with some odd bends to get the correct length, some exhaust valves for quiet vs performance mode, and a large displacement I6 would take up a lot of hood space. Though I guess, the SLR has a nice long hood. Just not sure how to fit a large I-6 that sounds good (a turbo would silence it greatly), create similar power, and fit.
You do realise straight-6's that aren't old American boat anchors do exist right? They're the 2nd smoothest engine configuration (V12 being the smoothest by virtue of essentially being 2 i6's that cancel each other out) you can realistically have in a car and there's been plenty that sound absolutely fantastic- I'm biased but the 3.0 N52 in my car is one such example.
BMW have been using a 3.0 twin turbo I6 in their M cars for going on 10 years now and other than the S55 sounding pretty crap (which can be fixed) I don't think anyone has had any complaints and they've always stood up to the V8 AMG competition. Merc also have an established I6 architecture, the CLE coupe got one in the CLE53 which is essentially on the same platform as the current C-Class so it would've been trivial to spice up the '53' engine and make a C63 with it.
The 4-cylinder C63 was an ill-advised marketing decision (and possibly influenced by regulations) not something driven by engineering.
I was'nt literally suggesting throwing a Cummins or Ford truck engine into a Merc, - just trying to think of common examples off the top of my head of I6s that made lots of noise due to displacement.
And yes, BMW has been very successful with their I6s. The N/A ones sound a bit better, imo if you're looking for that traditional C63 AMG growl, but even then it's just not quite there.
The double snail I6s sound good, too, but in a different way. The turbos do calm down the exhaust noise a decent amount, but you get a ton more power per liter and some good turbo sound. I have no issue with them.
IMO, neither match the Mercs 4.0 bi-turbo V8 or especially the classic 6.2 V8 the AMG C63 was established on. I think the article is kind of getting at that. The 4L is aggressive sounding and feeling say journalists and YT reviewers (also more powerful than the 6.2L,) at least compared to the 4cyl hybrid setup (even though the 4cyl hybrid has more power.)
I'm not knocking the incredible performance squeeze out of the 4cyl turbo/hybrid setup or BMW's TT I6. But the cylinder count and displacement do matter in getting that AMG sound and powerband. Yeah, the 4.0 V8 in the C63 AMG is twin turbo'd and doesn't have the rawness of the old 6.2, but it's closest at least.
Fair point- I took (as have others I think) your original comment as basically criticising the concept of a straight-6 AMG, and the straight-6 in general, which wasn't your intent.
Totally agree that the V8 sound (whether the 6.2 NA or the biturbo V8) was AMG's USP and really the big reason to get one over an M-car. I just think Merc were foolish not to consider going for a hotted up 6-cylinder rather than going straight to the 2.0 inline 4. BMW effectively pulled off the V8 to I6 move going from the E9x M3 to the F8x M3/4 and while there was some initial outrage (more to do with the presence of turbochargers than the cylinder count) it was very well received and they sold plenty...
The 53 makes the power, but does it have the raw sound and feel of a larger displacement V8? I'm too poor to ever own any of the above admittedly, But I've heard the C63 N/A many times in my town and even a bi-turbo I6 with more power doesn't sound as good, IMO
It's a tough comparison for Merc. The B58 is a monster engine, with decades of history and (tens of?) billions in cumulative R&D.
Do they really want to go head to head with BMW given their incumbent advantage?
Aren't the B58 and S58 largely the same engine? I though they ran comparable block and ancillary components. The S58 just runs a twin scroll and a bit more aggressive compression/timing.
B58 has a 82mm bore and a 94.6mm stroke, and S58 has a 84mm bore and 90mm stroke, so it is actually different. Actually the S58 shares the same bore and stroke as the B57 turbodiesel.
> and it is a competent system that all of their sedans come with.
Competent is not the word that I'd use to describe Volvo's twin-charged I4.
It is cool, but it is a massive pile of unreliable crap.
They don't use the twin charged system anymore. It was a nightmare of complexity and unreliability. They have since switched their lineup to just the turbo 4 popper or paired with electric motors
I really wonder how much of its reception would be categorically different if Mercedes had badged this differently, like a C45 S or something like that. I actually kinda like the idea of the current C63, but I really can’t say that a 4-banger Mercedes should have the AMG 63 badge.
The hybrid 4 cylinder could be cool in the high trims below the V8 for people who want something more efficient for a daily. But they'd have to lower the price substantially to the point it won't make sense. The new M5 is quicker and actually has a usable EV only mode.
I don't think anyone really complained about that very 4 cylinder in the A/GLA/CLA45, they got a very respectable amount of power in a compact and lightweight package which is perfect for a "small" AMG Merc. But there's an inevitable loss in identity and character when you turn your V8 RWD "muscle car" into an overly complex and somehow much heavier 4 cylinder hybrid with AWD and far too much focus on paper stats than the overall package.
The drivetrain just feels incredibly artificial and devoid of any character. Sure it's fast, but so are a dozen EVs that can be had for cheaper than the new C63 and GLC63.
People who are willing to buy a four-cylinder Mercedes are more likely to be electric vehicle buyers today. Times have changed, and there’s no need to make cars when a large portion of the targeted demographic have moved on and aren’t coming back.
Mercedes like others introduced 4 cylinder cars to reduce emissions and improve fuel efficiency. They then added turbos to try to achieve the performance of the 6-cylinders they replaced.
Now the companies can achieve regulatory goals by selling EVs and hybrids, so 6-cylinders are back! It gives them the ability to chase better performance without the limitations of the 4-cylinder.
There's some markets that make you pay taxes on engine displacement unfortunately. You could have a more fuel efficient V6 or V8 you'd still be paying more over the i4
The 4-cylinder is good, I kinda liked it.
But taking away the V8 for an i4 is just a mistake on their end. They could just make both and sell it to different markets.
Some markets like Italy / places in EU where you are paying a fee on engine displacement. Having the V8 would simply make the car unaffordable to alot of people.
Even here it might get some leeway with the insurance company because a V8 vs i4 would be a significant drop in your monthly payment
My wife's retired uncle was looking at c63 AMG. They replaced the motor and he stopped looking at it. Pretty simple cut and dry: Mercedes killed this sales by themselves.
The V8 was the only selling point of the C63. It wasn’t a handling machine like the M3/M4 nor did it have the refinement of the RS5 but it easily had the most character of the German Three.
Correction: they have the suspension and some drivetrain of an E-class. The chassis itself (i.e. the bits that don't move) is more French than German, but mostly just American.
I’m not even an American car guy but this is just negative car knowledge. 2017 dodge released the Viper ACR which generated 800kg of downforce it also set a 7:01 in the Nurburgring as a manual transmission. The Camaro ZL1 is an incredible handling car with power. The last 25 years of corvette Z06 and ZR1s. The Ford GT. There are many examples of the American big 3 building great handling cars if you don’t know that then you just don’t know cars because idk how you can call something that beats a Carrera GT and 911 GT2 RS 997 in the Nurburgring a boat
Yeah, that was aggressive and rude, you're right.
If you're into cars, you should learn a bit about the Alpha platform. It really was a paradigm shift. I was an "American cars bad" guy too until I was blindsided by how good the 6th gen Camaro was after being disappointed test driving a few Germans I was sure I'd love. Ended up in a 2017 SS 1LE over an E92 M3 and m240i.
0% chance an SS drives better than an e90 m3. You're clearly biased. If it was a ZL1 then sure, otherwise the BMW edges out on everything, even its shitty transmission.
That’s really not true for American sports cars. Chevy has been making Nurburgring competitors since I’ve been alive. The Ford GT exists, Ford also makes the GT500 which has been a good track car, Chevy when making the Camaro has made good handle cars and even most recently with the ZL1 it’s been great. The Corvette ZR1 in 2008 set the record in the Nurburgring after the GTR broke the 911 record. Dodge also makes the viper which went around the world setting record. The chargers and challengers can’t handle because that’s what their customer base wants
I know they have improved since then. I'm comparing how their high performance sedans stack against the competition. The 63 line is known for it's straight line rowdyness and not it's cornering ability.
They heavily outperform the RS models in corners and are very close to BMW. The GLC 63 held the record of fastest SUV for many years on the nordschleife, the GT63s was fastest 4 door (faster than M3/5/8) etc. In many tests the E63s lapped equal to the M5.
Again. I'm not taking the handling ability from them.
As you mentioned. One of the reasons people love Mercedes V8s is the sound(part of the rowdyness)
The first compliment people bring up about Mercedes is the sound and the way it accelerates. Cornering is usually never the first thing people mention for why they bought it unless we're mentioning the coupes.
I drove a new c63se a few times and actually thought about buying one. I love all the new interior tech, but the motor just didn't sound all that great and felt very complicated. They were offering close to 20k off MSRP. I see the same unsold leftover cars now sold as used CPOs with under 100 miles on them now. If they were in the low 60s, id definitely consider picking one up.
The funniest timeline would be if the I4 C63 becomes more valuable since now it could be a quirky rare collector car.
I haven’t looked at the prior gen V8 C63s for a while but I can only imagine the amount of “I KNOW WHAT I HAVE” and “LAST V8” sellers who’ve gotta be sweating right now
> It might retain some value but most enthusiasts won’t want to deal with a 4 cylinder with a complex hybrid drivetrain.
It depends on what the future looks like. Someone could have said this in the early '80s about SVO Mustangs and the complexity of turbo setups and how "real enthusiasts won't want turbochargers"
Aren’t those still not that expensive?? They’re 40 years old, I don’t see them appreciating in value. The average price on classic.com seems to be $15k
The Mustangs I see that are valuable seem to be big block/special edition models like the terminator.
Any Mustang driver is going to take the Coyote over the Ecoboost. Even with mods pushing an Ecoboost to 450hp on the stock turbo is difficult which is pretty much what a Coyote makes.
problem is not a 1980s mustang this is a 2020s plug in hybrid massively boosted insanely tightly packed double-transmissioned German car with 200 body modules and ECUs that nobody will work on after the warranty ends
> problem is this is not a 1980s mustang this is a 2020s plug in hybrid massively boosted insanely tightly packed double-transmissioned German car with 200 body modules and ECUs that nobody will work on after the warranty ends
Thanks for completely ignoring context and thus, my point.
The SVO was just as exotic in the 1980s, it just seems quaint to you now because it's 30 years later.
In 30 years, the 2025 C63 is probably going to seem quaint relative to the complexity of a 2055 model year car.
> we can barely work on car modules from 2005, I don’t think it’s getting any better lol
...
> In 30 years, the 2025 C63 is probably going to seem quaint relative to the complexity of a 2055 model year car.
Thank you for finally agreeing with me. It is not going to get better. Cars are only going to get more complex and electronic, and you can either continue seeing computers as black boxes you don't understand or adapt and take on people who understand the difference between a capacitor and a resistor.
Complexity is relative. Complex cars from 20 years ago are considered simple now.
Imagine what gas will cost 20 years from now. I own two V8s, one is a hybrid and one is not. I often see single-digit MPGs in the AMG S63...which is *not* fun.
Now that they missed a generation, when it does finally come back as a V8 hybrid, it will be unreliable as hell and overpriced.
Hope in wrong af and its the most reliable V8 ever made
consumer cars in general are already pretty well regulated, there isn't much point in regulating them further, specially in europe (in fact, I'd trade a bit of simplicity for slightly higher emissions, diminishing returns and all that)
This. I’m ok with 4 cylinders in small/light cars like the Twins but in anything normal size I would take an EV over one of these turbo 4’s they put into everything. Low redline, marginal HP, terrible exhaust, and often not even particularly efficient. It’s like all the worst qualities of ICE.
It'll be interesting to see how long Mercedes AMG can keep the V8 or even the inline six going before they have to hybridise them heavily due to EU emissions regulations.
Even Porsche is having to start hybridising the 911's six cylinder and that's with the Macan becoming an EV to try and forestall the inevitable.
Yes, the perfect defense
Car markers bizarrely *want* their products to be worse. They lobby the government to restrict their own ability to deliver what their customers want.
At least this defense is a little less obtuse than "omg the banning of new ICE cars has nothing to do with the phasing out of ICE engines" but it's still early in the conversation.
They don‘t want them worse, they know that they can handle the transission better than the US carmakers, giving them a competitive edge. Though they forgot about China
... completely sidestepping the entire "why would we need to transition at all?" question
Most people don't want EV's. They're not selling well. They depreciate faster than used pencils. The entire idea behind phasing all ICE out in favor of EV was always a ludicrous pipe dream
Most people don‘t care whether their car is Electric or ICE, as long as it offers the same practicality. Most people do care about Climate change. Hence when both types of cars, EV and ICE, offer the same practicality for the same price, many people will choose EV‘s. That is an essential milestone in dealing with climate change. So there is a need for a transission towards that point. Also this whole EV‘s sucks sentiment exists mostly in the US and on (us dominated) internet forums.
>Most people don‘t care whether their car is Electric or ICE, as long as it offers the same practicality.
it's almost like this might explain exactly why EV sales and used values have hit a wall. *They are provably not as practical.*
>Most people do care about Climate change.
[EV Sales by Country 2025](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/ev-sales-by-country)
lol
The us is the country that doesn’t care about climate change and very much the brake to all action. China is improving rapidly and will transition to renewables very quickly as will the eu.
> The us is the country that doesn’t care about climate change and very much the brake to all action.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2024/02/04/why-the-us-leads-the-world-in-reducing-carbon-emissions/
> China is improving rapidly and will transition to renewables very quickly as will the eu.
fucking lol
it's impressive how little you know about this
Your own source compares the entire us to individual countries. Europe or the eu as a whole will be ahead in reduction. Over a 15 year perspective of course China has been growing because they started so low. Let’s see what the future looks like.
My bet is the eu continues reductions as beforehand the us stalls because of insane politics and China’s reductions pick up. They hade their first quarterly reduction YoY this year so hopefully that continues. They are investing heavily in renewables and nuclear while the us isnt. Europe is deploying a lot of renewables too even if some countries are sadly lagging behind as well.
The eu has cut emissions far more than the us.
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/cop/eu-almost-track-reach-2030-climate-goal-2025-05-28/
37% since 1990. The us is down what 2%?
They are not as practical, that's why people despite Climate Change don't buy them. But for them to ever be as practical as ICE, massive money needs to be invested in R&D and infrastructure, hence the political need for incentives and deadlines on ICE technology.
EVs are very practical. You charge at home and never need to stop at a gas station during your commute. Sometimes you’ll need to charge during a longer trip but that’s not really an issue with the technology and in the eu we have great coverage already. It’s more of a us thing to fight change with emotional arguments and polarisation which has slowed adoption and infrastructure.
Wait. The Germans wanted EVs?
The Germans wanted to shift cars from something they're great at - 6 and 8 cylinder engines - to EVs that they're just learning about but the Chinese are far ahead on?
That makes absolutely zero sense.
Seems they don't think very far ahead. The Chinese are dumping cheap EVs in Europe and now the EU is tariffing the Chinese EVs to try and keep the German automotive industry afloat.
I guess they want to save the world and go green...but apparently they don't want to do it *that badly* if it hits their bottom line.
The Germans and the Italians didn't want the effective ban on internal combustion in 2035 - the best they could achieve via lobbying was the exemption for engines that run on synthetic fuels.
> before they have to hybridise them heavily
They already have. That's what the 63 E performance is. The 55's are getting PHEV treatment soon. New platforms will be HEV/PHEV and pure EV. That's the direction every German company is going.
While I see your point, they didn't take the 190E, make a new generation, and put a 2 stroke lawnmower engine in it with a turbo all while keeping the badging
I'm going to disagree with the equivalency you're making. I don't blame anybody for missing the V8, a V8 of any kind is a absolute treat. But, aside from a bad exhaust note, there's nothing about A turbo inline 4 Making more than 450 horsepower that I can really take issue with.
That being said, I probably shouldn't mind people dislike the car. if in a few years the depreciation gods say I can get one for a Steal of a price, I won't be complaining.
If they sold a manual extremely lightweight sports sedan with a racy I4 and awesome driving dynamics, plenty of people would be interested at $80k. Instead its an I4 in a 4800lb boat.
Funny because the consensus in the Alpine A110 thread was that it had no chance in the US market if it were priced at $70k.
People also complain that $45-50k is too much for the FL8 Civic Type-R because it's FWD.
You can get a 4cyl E350 or GL350 to 80k easily I think.
A largeish 4cyl luxury car would be called heresy back in the 2000s and earlier, at least in the US. I’m surprised the manufacturers were able to convince buyers otherwise.
Should specify AMG. Benz and AMG are 2 different entities.
Mercedes is keeping 4-cylinders for obvious reasons and AMG won't be using them in the 53/63s anymore.
It was barely about them getting rid of the v8, it was also that they didn't open a new customer market while closing their current market
They could have easily switched from v8 douche bros to business people looking for a quick hybrid that's cheap to run because hybrid. Instead they gave it the smallest battery they could that would still make everything about the vehicle worse, without getting any tax benefits
If it had a 40mile e range, or even the Mercedes normal 80 miles, I'd be driving a c63 wagon RIGHT NOW
Instead im getting an m5 wagon
Ah yes, which is the reason why my dealer just ordered 42 BMW m5 wagons, and zero m3 wagons. Because the m3 outsells the m5 by so much
Running the current m5 is cheaper than running the current m3, tax wise. And its the same price leasing rate wise.
Once they offer a hybrid m3 I'll probably downgrade to that, but right now its just way too expensive
Unconventional opinion, but I feel like people would be much happier with downsizing to small fours if they were V4s instead of inline fours. I know they're exceedingly uncommon in cars (the pinnacle performance bike engine) but the sound and character can be way closer to a V8 than an I4/I6/V6 can achieve, while offering the efficiency benefits of a small 4cyl.
The Chinese have lots of coal fired electric plants. So running EVs in China doesn’t much in achieving big loss of emissions. But China has to import most of their oil, so it makes a lot of sense to go to EVs.
I wonder if putting the 4 cylinder and a 6 speed into a c class could work? Mercedes could do a cosworth 190e style callback that may work out for them.
why not continue evolving the inline 6 they created? that seems like a good compromise between performance, character, and economy. why did they jump from 8 to 4?
Who would’ve think that people who can afford a car at that price point doesn’t care about emissions and want the engine they want? No one saw it coming. /s
I was recently given a C300 as a loaner while my car was being serviced. It sounded like lawn mover. I could not believe that MB installed a four in the C-class. MB needs to study the history of Packard.
Good decision, but a V8 in a C-class? I hope so, but 'll believe it when I see it. The I6 is still beautiful. I also think they should eliminate the electric powertrain in the C. PHEV has its place - I own one - but when it comes to sustained performance, I just don't feel the electric powertrain can deliver reliable torque when the battery is depleted. So take the C63 back to its ICE roots, and save the PHEV for E&S cars whose drivers want a grand tourer experience, with occasional mental power.
No fucking shit. I'm their exact target demographic, a 1%er American, and if you think I'm paying a premium for a 4-cylinder you are mistaken. I've driven 3 miles total in the last 10 days, fuel economy isn't a concern, so shove the biggest possible motor into it.
The 4 cylinder configuration made sense from an efficiency point of view, but people don't buy AMGs because they're practical. They buy them because they're *extra*.
Mercedes just learned that selling performance without soul = EV on one extreme, while selling performance with soul = NA V8 on the other extreme.
Fewer cylinders with forced induction lie somewhere between the 2 extremes. Turbos muffle exhaust characteristics a little bit compared to NA.
The turbo 4 was nudging the slider closer towards the EV end of the spektrum, which is not what the C63 Amg is about.
Didn’t they waffle back and forth a few times on this already? I heard they quashed the rumors of the V8 returning to the C63
Source:
https://www.motor1.com/news/751574/amg-c63-v8-2026-rumor/
I feel like the Germans do this alot. Make something that technically is better/faster but don't stop to question if it is what the customer actually wants. I know there has been a ton of back and forth on manual transmissions with German brands too. I don't really care if its objectively faster if the experience isn't right.
The question is whether any of the next generation V8s will be as evocative as the current V8 lineups (eg the SC V8 in the CT5-V Blackwing). Or if they'll be restricted further because of the emissions and other regulations.
I imagine that they are in some markets, while they aren't in most other markets.
A decision to revert to a V8 is likely a choice to chase higher sales in the non-EU markets. Any commercial drag in the EU due to penalties will be countered by lower margin, higher sales price, or simply greater global profits (due to higher sales)
They probably found a more efficient PHEV system for their V8s or made enough EVs to offset.
I also heard somewhere that some of the EU emissions regulations were getting relaxed, but I could be wrong.
It’ll probably cost a lot more due to taxes in many European countries, like how the M5 is cheaper than the M3 in like the Netherlands due to it being a PHEV.
Fair enough, this sub is quite heavy handed with blacklists. That said, I do believe autocar is allowed. Autocar is not less reputable than C&D, it has its shortcomings but the same can be said of all mainstream outlets for autojournalism
Would we be talking about his car differently if it wasn't labelled a 63? Maybe, but I'm really doubtful of that. Shit, wasn't there just a fuss about the M2 Racing having a B48?
This just proves how Germans are disconected with reality and in their own echo chamber where they still believe they can grap some shit wrap it in aluminium, put some wheels on it and it will sell because its a "german" product. The executives that promoted and convice the leadership of this abomination and blasfemy of a car should never be alowed to work in the auto industry again.
I feel like the problem with Mercedes is that people associate the brand too much with big cars and big engines, which is problematic as regulation progresses. In this regard, BMW being primarily known for 6-cylinder engines rather than 8 is a massive advantage.
Someone close to me has a whole extended family our Russian Mercedes superfans that buy new ones all the time & they have been really hating on current Mercedes engines.
I always know if their mad, Mercedes fucked up lol.
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