Is it time for the UK rank and file police officers to carry a firearm?
Posted by Philster07@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 78 comments
After watching the footage from the Hainault sword attacker and in general an increase in violent crimes (see Nottingham terror attacks, London Bridge etc) is it time we entrust the tank and file with a side arm?
Specifically on Hainault, 2 officers were stabbed and it could have been two more dead. If they had firearms the threat could have been neutralised more effectively without putting officers and members of the public in arms way.
Sources:
https://news.sky.com/video/share-13389226
https://news.sky.com/story/blade-split-my-hand-wide-open-police-officer-slashed-in-hainault-sword-attack-speaks-out-13389176
uptank_@reddit
absolutely not, a police officer with the ability to use lethal force at any time will only escalate conflicts, cause the police to be even more distrusted and even hated then they are now. And add to this that excessive force would now involve potential lethal force in a much easier way.
We need to focus imbedding police officers as a member and ally of the community as they traditionally had been, until the 1980s onwards, which includes improving officer training and more checks on a persons background and character, which recently has been a massive flaw.
Philster07@reddit (OP)
Could it be said this distrust of the police came from Thatcher's era and using them to break the pickets at places like Orgreave?
uptank_@reddit
i would certainly say that in the case of my town and general region, Thatcher's premiership was the root of most of our modern distrust of police. Many even today, particularly older folk still use terms like "Thatcher's Thugs" or "Snatcher's". I would also say that our polices has become more slack in terms of who they let in, many officers (not all) seem to think they are above the average citizen and talk down to them, using the law as if it only protects them.
fastestman4704@reddit
It just comes from the history of policing.
It's not quite as bad in the UK as in the US because we did have Kin Police in more rural communities but for as long as there has been cities there has been corruption in the police and, especially in Major cities, police existed to protect business more than to protect people.
CensorTheologiae@reddit
We don't have a lot to shout about in the UK at the moment. But we can still be proud that we have police who deal with violent episodes exceptionally well using their skill and their brains, rather than guns.
hyperdistortion@reddit
I have a few friends in law enforcement. None of them want to carry firearms as standard kit. And it sounds like there’s a broad consensus on that among coppers, from what they’ve said.
(admittedly not the most representative sample, I’ll take what I can get)
Now, tasers or other non-lethal-by-design means of subduing a violent offender, those seem to be a different matter. There are plenty of ways to put an aggressor out of action that don’t involve ‘neutralising’ them.
By and large we aren’t an armed society. So aside from dedicated, specialist units, our police don’t need to be carrying guns by default.
Pargula_@reddit
Probably because they get thrown under the bus every time they need to use force.
hyperdistortion@reddit
It’s a thankless task, and one that has to weigh heavy on all involved.
Even when police get it right, and the person they shoot dead was an immediate and serious threat to innocent people - they’ve still killed a person.
And even if that was the right call, and everything was done correctly, there’ll always be people criticising the decision to kill, for any number of reasons.
Pargula_@reddit
Yup, all people need to do is look at the Chris Kabba case, it's a perfect example of police doing their job, yet they got crucified for it and had their reputations destroyed.
KoorbB@reddit
I watched this footage thinking to myself, just taser the guy! So for me, the answer is that all officers should be trained to use and carry tasers. It feels like a much better way of disarming a person than the introduction of guns across the board. Just keep the specialised armed response units for the absolute serious of cases.
Separately, I can imagine much more uprising from people if guns were carried across the board, where not as skilled and specialised units/officers were able to use lethal force. You only have to look at some of the higher profile killings by police, to see that it’s a bit of a minefield navigating when lethal force should and shouldn’t be used.
Glittering_Copy8907@reddit
The officer who was seriously hurt was literally a taser officer. They're crap.
KoorbB@reddit
I wonder why he didn’t get the taser out sooner? Some kind of protocol has to be followed I’m guessing.
First_Folly@reddit
A fairly large issue with tasers is that they are often neutralised fully or partially simply because of the clothing that the target is wearing. If the pins don't properly embed you may as well be shooting them with a water pistol.
In those circumstances it's often better to attempt either physical restraint or deploy PAVA.
Glittering_Copy8907@reddit
They had it out, they'd either already fired it prior (it's unclear from the footage) or were trying to get to him to use it.
Again, they're crap for this stuff. Watch this video and count the taser activations before they finally got him - that nobody was killed is a miracle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhbYo5nKYk
RumJackson@reddit
How do you know introducing firearms would neutralise the threat “without putting officers and members of the public in harms way”?
Pargula_@reddit
Guy with a sword comes at officer, officer neutralizes them from a safe distance.
ApexSpanker@reddit
It's great in theory, and to be clear I do support routine arming, but to play the devil's advocate officers are not going to be well trained with their firearms. They'll probably do a week or two long course then an annual refresher. Having shot handguns myself it's difficult to be accurate when you have plenty of time. I imagine in a stressful situation there is a very high chance that the officer misses and hits someone in the cafe or bus or whatever is behind the offender or end up getting stabbed anyway because they waited till the last possible moment because they didn't want to get dragged through an investigation for the next 5 years.
Pargula_@reddit
I completely agree, police officers should be armed and spend 20% of their time training, not just firearms, but also conflict de-escalation, grappling, fitness, etc. they should also get paid more.
RumJackson@reddit
Guy with a sword comes at an officer from behind and now has a gun.
Pargula_@reddit
Officer's partner neutralizes guy with sword before he gets a chance to murder their partner.
RumJackson@reddit
Sword guy’s partner, also with sword, neutralises officer’s partner simultaneously. Now sword guys become gun guys.
Pargula_@reddit
Yes, but in the scenario that played out in this specific case, that swordsman would have been neutralized quickly and no police officers would have been injured.
Sending out police officers into the world without even a taser is moronic.
terryjuicelawson@reddit
I was under the impression they didn't want it, and specialist officers can be dispatched very quickly if needed. OK so they can deal with some occasions like this if they had a gun in theory, but how many would be killed unneccessarily. I know their situation is different but in the US, around 500 people a year are killed by police. Were all of those necessary?
spacespaces@reddit
Why would you compare us to the US and not to the many very similar countries in Europe where officers carry handguns?
terryjuicelawson@reddit
Shows the extreme end really. But we are an island with a tiny amount of gun crime.
spacespaces@reddit
I emigrated and it’s very common across mainland Europe to see police officers carry small handguns. Watching the guy with a samurai sword almost kill three people, even after police arrived, I would be in favour of this.
However, some police footage I have seen shows that police just aren’t trained enough. So I continue conflicted.
Philster07@reddit (OP)
This is my main argument and the reason for the post. I too am conflicted on this. I've been on this planet 35 years and lived all that time here, while you got the occasional ones (PC Sharon Beshenivsky) I feel they have started to ramp up more, you had the two killed by Dale Caregan in 2012 and this could have resulted in another two.
While in these cases potentially a gun could have neutralised the threat earlier I can also see the potential misuse of such power.
fastestman4704@reddit
It also could have resulted in innocent people being shot nearby.
spacespaces@reddit
It’s incredibly unlikely that a trained professional could accidentally kill a bystander with a 9mm pistol.
fastestman4704@reddit
No it isn't. Handguns are not really accurate past 50 yards, and within 25 your risking a bullet passing straight through, unless you want to use something like a hollowpoint round.
So you're either going to kill the person you're shooting or possibly hit someone nearby. Bullets don't magically stop if you miss.
spacespaces@reddit
I think you are imagining a Hollywood film, and not a trained professional that will only fire as a last resort and knows what situations to avoid. Police generally won't be taking potshots from 50 yards.
Some very interesting statistics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
fastestman4704@reddit
And I think you're imagining infallible police officers from a story book.
By no means am I suggesting that we're going to see hundreds on police shooting deaths a year, but if we see 1, that's 1 too many.
The only way to be certain they won't shoot somebody is to not give them a gun that they can shoot somebody with.
spacespaces@reddit
Not at all, but I don't think police officers in the vast majority of the world are naturally superior to British ones, and there doesn't seem to be many (or any) unjustified police shootings in countries with similar demographics and gun laws to the UK.
It is easy to say one is too many, but we have to account for how many lives could be saved by warning shots and the just the knowledge that police are armed.
No_Battle_6402@reddit
I think they should all have tasers. Only a few officers are allowed to carry them!
fastestman4704@reddit
That's because tasers can kill people and it's not a great idea to give too many police something that can kill people
Pargula_@reddit
How many people have been killed by a taser?
fastestman4704@reddit
How many does the answer have to be before it's too many?
There's a reason they had to stop referring to themselves as non-lethal.
Pargula_@reddit
Don't know, but definitely not zero.
And the responsibility lies with the person that puts themselves in a situation that requires a police officer to tase them.
I care a lot more about the safety and physical integrity of the police officers.
fastestman4704@reddit
Well in my opinion 1 is 1 too many and the only way to make sure police don't shoot or tase someone to death is to not give police guns and tasers.
I care about everyone's safety, a police officer being threatened by you should not be a death sentence. I don't want to live in a country were someone can be shot because a police officer is scared.
Pargula_@reddit
I wish we all lived in your fantasy world.
ThePolymath1993@reddit
One of my mates is a special constable, with emphasis on the "special". Lovely bloke but I wouldn't trust him to safely use a rubber spoon, let alone a lethal weapon.
RangeMoney2012@reddit
All officers should have tasers
fastestman4704@reddit
Even tasers are too dangerous to be given too every police officer
RangeMoney2012@reddit
Why? They will obviously need to be trained to use them, and they are a lot safer than a gun
fastestman4704@reddit
Because you can still kill somebody with a laser quite easily.
I'm not keen on police having anything that can be considered a weapon, let alone something that is definitely and only a weapon
Glittering_Copy8907@reddit
No you can't, don't be silly.
fastestman4704@reddit
Yes, you can. Anyone with a heart condition, anyone holding something sharp, anyone near something dangerous. Tasers are no longer allowed to be marketed as non-lethal because they aren't. They're less lethal which is not a reassuring label.
Yeah, not super keen on them having those either but at least no one is having a heart attack and dying if you hit them in the arm with a stick.
Tutis3@reddit
Nope, the more firearms there are, the more criminals will use them, the more will fall into the hands of idiots and then we have a situation like America has where everyone thinks they need a gun because other people have guns.
Glittering_Copy8907@reddit
Why is the comparison always with the US, as opposed to basically every other country in the world?
We're a massive outlier. In many ways I'm proud of that, but it's a nonsense not to be able to have a conversation around it without invoking the USA. There are literally, routinely armed, British police forces FFS.
CCFC1998@reddit
No. As we see in the US, more guns make people less safe.
I'd much rather have a small number of highly trained officers ready to respond only when absolutely neccesary like we have now.
Glittering_Copy8907@reddit
Problem is, by definition, that means the highly trained officers can't be where they need to be. Arguably every knife incident should be a firearms job, but that's just impossible to cater for
KeyLog256@reddit
This rears its head now and again, notably when two police officers actually were murdered by Dale Cregan, who was armed, and they weren't.
But that's kind of the answer to the argument - it is incredibly rare for things like this to happen, so arming most police officers causes more issues than it solves. And even then, officers might still be killed if a suspect is armed, so it isn't a foolproof solution.
Ask on the Police UK sub and most serving officers will say they don't want to be routinely carrying firearms.
Leezeebub@reddit
If anything, it might make cops more of a target for having their gun stolen.
KeyLog256@reddit
I suppose, but that would be a very minor issue.
azkeel-smart@reddit
The street value of handcuffs, radio, and taser combined is significantly lower than a handgun.
LANdShark31@reddit
Even with that, he surprised them. He had guns and a grenade. Sadly it’s likely even if they’d been armed that the outcome would have been the same.
red_black_red0@reddit
No.
A "solution" is only good if it solves more problems than it creates, which this does not, not even close.
MiddleAgeCool@reddit
No. These attacks are in the minority and from what I understand it, the majority of the UK police force last time they were asked didn't want to carry a gun.
You also have incidents of armed officers handing back their weapons because they face investigations and court cases if they use them, even within the guidelines set out, and some of those officers have reported being targeted by groups who see them as "murders" rather than officers carrying out their lawful duty.
Accomplished_Law2757@reddit
Fuck no
LuDdErS68@reddit
If we arm the police, more criminals will arm themselves. Increasing the risk to the public.
J1M7nine@reddit
Firearms training is ridiculously tight (and expensive). If an officer fails an eye test, that’s it, they are out, for example, so equipping the rank and file would need a complete approach and lowering of the current standards. Lowering standards rarely leads to anything positive.
Key_Milk_9222@reddit
It doesn't have anything to do with trusting them with firearms, it's about not escalating. If the police have guns then criminals will want guns.
Unfair_Mail_5445@reddit
Why a police officer used his gun, when someone was trying to ram them. Know violent offenders. Nearly goes to prison. Officers are handing back the firearms and surrendering their permission to use one. If we can’t back an offer when they use it. And understand they make massively important split second decision why would we arm more.
If anything with need better education in prison and a better crb checking system to bring down reoffending.
There is a place for armed police as a unit not as a whole force.
DogtasticLife@reddit
No, nope, nein, non, nyet etc
Salty_Intention81@reddit
I’m no longer in uniform, I’m a detective. But I would never have joined if we were expected to carry firearms.
rustylust@reddit
Just let all citizens have one, like in the US.
xVENUSx@reddit
And then we can have school shootings like the US!
rustylust@reddit
Shotgun and firearms licence’s are legal here in the UK, I don’t see your point.
arfur-sixpence@reddit
Firearms licences are heavilky regulated in the UK. In the US can buy guns at Walmart.
P2P-BSH@reddit
Our system is very different to the US system.
imtheorangeycenter@reddit
No. Society wouldn't accept it given the distrust of the police in certain segments. And imagine the required changes to policing to avoid a "Want a gun? Just jump fat PC Dave and nick it." secenario.
Just_Juggernaut3232@reddit
There isn't a general increase in violent crimes, the long term trend shows decline. If you're basing the idea that we should arm police on a false premise, I'm going to have to disagree with it.
bluejackmovedagain@reddit
Police in NI are routinely armed, but there are historical reasons for that.
I think it would cause more problems than it solves. There is room for improvement, but on the whole our police are good at deescalating situations, and it would be much harder to keep people calm when firearms are present.
Anxious-Molasses9456@reddit
Most policemen dont want to carry a gun though, especially after Chris Kaba
fastestman4704@reddit
No, It isn't.
Giving (more) police officers guns would only serve to endangere the public.
dpwtr@reddit
More tasers and more armed response units for major cities.
Beat cops don't need guns. We also can't afford to provide them either.
RoughTricky1@reddit
This is something I am very conflicted about
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