Accident in Hanoi, Vietnam: B787 wing crashed with A321 rudder

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alphagusta@reddit

Aint it wild how nowadays there's someone ALWAYS recording any incident that happens before it does occur? Like its insane.

This person just so happening to be recording out the window when this happens

The person on the ground just so happening to be recording Air India from their room when it went down

The pilot in the cockpit of another aircraft just so happening to be recording waiting for the Delta plane to land in which it flips over into a fireball

Do people really be just CONSTANTLY recording every second of their life, like whenever a leaf blows by in case its the next viral leaf or something?

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kukkoinen@reddit

You only see the videos when someone was recording. There could be hundreds of incidents we dont see because noone was recording.

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Ataneruo@reddit

While you are technically correct, the point is that we are in fact seeing most major incidents on video these days, which means they are in fact being captured.

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IIIIlllIIIIIlllII@reddit

Think about the things you Don't see. A lot of things people claimed happened are straight up bullshit.

No Jesus miracles, no ghosts, no aliens

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What are you talking about? Avgeeks record their flights since it’s their passion, if something happens it’s just coincidence. I also have a YouTube channel and I post all my landings and takeoffs from window view. Most of them are similar, but doing so helped me capture my first go around and the footage was used on national news in my country

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isiwey@reddit

I’m so confused. Why did the B787 not stop when they touched initially? Would have led to much less damage

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altbekannt@reddit

because he didn’t see what we saw

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isiwey@reddit

I find it hard to believe they didn’t feel the initial contact. Unless it was at the exact same time as the plane ahead stopped

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DFA_Wildcat@reddit

He felt the plane stop for sure, but I'm also sure he didn't know why. He probably figured it was uneven pavement, or something to do with something under his wheels. You can hear him spool up the engines to get over whatever he thought was holding him back. It's not all on the pilot, if he was cleared down that taxiway the controller is supposed to make sure it's clear for him. The other plane that was hit could have been holding short too far back. As with any accident it's usually a bunch of small errors that lead up to something like this.

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nineyourefine@reddit

It's not all on the pilot, if he was cleared down that taxiway the controller is supposed to make sure it's clear for him.

I agree with everything you said except this. At the end of the day, it's on us, not ATC, to make sure we have clearances between objects/aircraft. Just because ATC clears me somewhere, it doesn't mean I can just close my eyes and whatever happens, happens. I've had countless instances where ATC has cleared me into an alley or across a taxiway and I stopped the aircraft because the alley didn't seem clear enough, or I wasn't sure what the other guy was doing.

ATC can't tell how much room we have between our aircraft, and they're busy looking at the whole airport environment, it's up to us to make sure we keep from running into things.

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isiwey@reddit

I agree, but if he felt something was holding him back, the best decision would be to alert ATC and let ground staff take a look, and take a look out the window. Nothing should be on the taxiway, even tiny debris could cause a puncture, so it seems potentially reckless from the B787 pilots even if they are not the ones wrongly positioned

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DFA_Wildcat@reddit

Looking out the window from the airport lounge all the pavement looks flat and perfect. If you have ever been on the air side of the airport out on the tarmac you would know it's not always so. Frost heaves move the asphalt, it sinks a bit here and there, etc. Pilots have to rely on controllers with their lives. If you get a takeoff clearance you have to 100% trust the controller doesn't have another plane coming in behind you, about to land on your back. As with anything it is subject to human error at any given moment.

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isiwey@reddit

This was holding him back considerably, not just a small bump in the tarmac

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DFA_Wildcat@reddit

I can only tell you what happens, I can't make you understand it. Think of it like a big truck that drops a wheel into a pothole and stops rolling. He keeps applying more and more power until he climbs out of the pothole. Except it wasn't a pothole it was his trailer hung up on an overhead sign that he didn't notice. In this case everything should have been clear for his wingspan. The only logical conclusion is that something on the ground was not even and he needed more power to get over it. You would have to spend some time airside to understand.

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isiwey@reddit

I gave other logical explanations for it, including contact with the plane they just passed, which, with situational awareness, should have appeared too close for comfort. Which leads to the likelihood that the B787 pilots were reckless after initial contact.

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Hugo_5t1gl1tz@reddit

Man, those 321 pilots went on a bit of a ride.

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InkyPinkie@reddit

I wonder how do pilots determine that there is enough space to move the plane? And do they feel the resistance from hitting something while taxiing?

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nineyourefine@reddit

Maintaining taxiway centerline is critical, especially in congested ramp areas. You'll also have notes that mention maximum wingspan allowed on the taxiway, and maximum wingspan allowed on multiple taxiways with converging traffic (Think 2 widebodies on parallel taxiways going opposite directions, the wings can overhang the taxiway and cause a clearance issue).

On a narrowbody, I can just barely see the wingtip so I can always look out the window, however if it looks close at all, I'm stopping the airplane. It can definitely be unnerving, as I've been in tight ramps where it looks like it's not gonna work, but the reality is that you have plenty of room.

All that said, if it doesn't feel right, stop the airplane. I tell all my FO's that if they need to use the brakes, do it first and we'll talk about it later.

As far as hitting something and feeling resistance? THankfully never hit something so I don't know, however when he added power in the video I bet he thought that he may have gotten stuck in a divot in the taxiway, which is very common. Many times if we're going slow or taxiing on 1 engine and we roll into a shallow spot on the asphalt, the plane will quickly slow down, and if you're on 1 engine and don't power up quickly enough you may not be able to overpower it and you'll get stuck.

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ezequielmunozx2@reddit

A trick I learnt:

If the shadows touch, you might hit. If the shadows don't touch, you are fine

Problem: cloudy days🤣

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Which_Material_3100@reddit

We are given taxi geometry references in the simulator, the flight manual and during line training as to where the wingtips, engine pods, main gear and nose gear intersect with the side window rails, the forward window/instrument panel etc. You can’t see the wingtips for the 777 or 787 from the flightdeck.

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ABoutDeSouffle@reddit

I mean, they moved the Airbus around. I am pretty sure the crews on both planes noticed that quite clearly.

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Hugo_5t1gl1tz@reddit

I am not a pilot, but I can answer at least your first question. Generally speaking, taxiways are cleared/approved for certain size planes. So, as long as you are on the proper taxiway, and following the line, you should be clear. So, in the sense, assuming they did everything okay, I’d say this was a case of the A321 stopping before it should have. Not far enough up at a stopping point.

As for your second question, like i said, not a pilot, but you’d think so. Especially watching that video, you’d think they’d question why it suddenly stopped, and likely needed more thrust than normal to move forward. So, as a layman, I’d lay that second push on the Dreamliner pilot for not being like “hey wait a second, something is off”. But I’d love to hear other points of view

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ttystikk@reddit

Wild. There's video of EVERYTHING these days.

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w0nderbrad@reddit

Can’t park there mate

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Shikatanai@reddit

Holy shit - that was NOT just the tip.

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kill4beers420@reddit

That's what she said

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Krugger221@reddit

If anyone wants proof of how strong an airplane wing is, this is it right here.

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Anti-redtard@reddit

That is savage!!!

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LivermoreP1@reddit

Samir! Samir, no you are breaking the plane!

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Comma_Karma@reddit

787 involved? Puts on Boeing.

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Big-Conflict-4218@reddit

If this was reversed, the Airbus would get a pass like oh it's nothing just do better next time 😆😆😆

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patterninstatic@reddit

I suspect it's the same technical issue as the Air India crash.

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DullMind2023@reddit

Pilot Error. /s

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Unlucky-Jello-5660@reddit

Ah shame it wasn't in Thailand then you could have the headline:

"Beleaguered Boeing in Billion Baht Bustup"

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yapoyt@reddit

"Bangkok:"

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notrewoh@reddit

“Boeing plane crashes in Vietnam”

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TheTrampIt@reddit

Incredibly, everyone survived!

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J3ttf@reddit

Thanks to the advanced safety systems of the AirBus

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GrumpyOldGeezer_4711@reddit

They are deliberately causing the incident to be able to point fingers at Airbus now! Where is my tinfoil!

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gms29@reddit

So in this case who pays If the airbus had stopped earlier than it was supposed to does the airbus plane company pay?

If the Boeing was off Center from the taxiway do they pay?

If the atc had told the airbus to stop earlier then does the government/airport pay?

What happens to the person in questions responsible for this?

And incase the airbus or whichever plane is at fault , do they pay for the downtime loss also or is it just for repairs?

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JackedJaw251@reddit

I can't be the only one that read that title and my initial impression was that a 787 crashed because it had an A321 rudder.

Man. I need coffee.

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newtomovingaway@reddit

Ugh I’m going DAD -> HAN on VNA in a few days, should I be worried? Or will everyone be extra vigilant now that an incident has occurred?

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NoMikeyThatsNotRight@reddit

r/ThatLookedExpensive

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_realpaul@reddit

I guess there was a loud boeing inside the air bus?

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Tuk514@reddit

Zero excuses!

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op3l@reddit

Is the wing fixable on the 787 being a composite?

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FORDxGT@reddit

With any luck, it’s just the wing tip which is removable and easily replaced. The Airbus on the other hand will be out of service for a while if the vertical stab internal structure is damaged

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DoctorMurk@reddit

Could the Boeing's wingtip 'pull' on the rest of the wing, creating potential damage stress damage?

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Tuna-Fish2@reddit

The wingtip is a separate section, if damage is limited to it the fix will be fairly cheap and fast.

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op3l@reddit

That's good to hear. Guess Boeing engineers thought of these things.

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Strayan_rice_farmer@reddit

Probably manufactured in sections right?

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pursuer_of_simurg@reddit

It is only the fusalage that is a one piece composite with 787 as far as I remember.

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Only_Progress6207@reddit

The fuselage isn't one continuous piece it's made of sections that are joined together

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MacSergey@reddit

It would be crazy if a plane written off after such little damage

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la1m1e@reddit

They're talking wing replacement not plane replacement

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MacSergey@reddit

Can you replace entire wing? Is not both wings one piece which is attached to the body during body assembling?

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bagelbelly@reddit

Wings are attached individually.

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deepneuralnetwork@reddit

Planes are attached individually to the wings, too.

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bagelbelly@reddit

In a perfect world

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Manor7974@reddit

Yes

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Opening-Two6723@reddit

Theres no crosswind upon arrival....Let's see what she's got

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WarmRoastedBean@reddit

Missed it by thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat much

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boarroostersnake@reddit

Like butta

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Suuuumimasen@reddit

Company was probably not paying enough for wing walkers.

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Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit

You normally don't have wing walkers on taxiways, where both of these airplanes were, supposedly.

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CallOfCorgithulhu@reddit

There's video of it happening. Almost certainly on a taxiway, and with the 787 moving forwards. There's no wing walker argument to be made at all.

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Intergalatic_Baker@reddit

Airlines claiming that wing walkers cost too much, when they see the bill for this cock up and bill of a guy shouting into a radio for 50 years and it barely dents the crash bill.

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moncolonel81@reddit

…and that’s why you always sharpen your wing tips!

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willowtr332020@reddit

It's it just me, or is there an uptick in aircraft incidents?

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Powerful-Magazine879@reddit

Must be Boeing's fault, huh?

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karbaayen@reddit

That’s a lot of money right there…oooooof

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raisonar@reddit

What is more costly and time consuming to replace tail or vertical stab?

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Lonely_Campaign6354@reddit

Tail imo

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MatsHummus@reddit

On a sidenote, that teal blue livery is gorgeous

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nguyenm@reddit

From experience taxiing (as CM2) in HAN is relatively straightforward for a narrow-body, as well as I think the layout is not too obtuse. Curious about where the incident occurs.

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HanoibusGamer@reddit (OP)

A321 is holding short before crossing the runway for takeoff, and it looks like A321 is standing a bit too far from the intended location

https://vietnamnet.vn/hai-may-bay-va-vao-nhau-tai-san-bay-noi-bai-2415859.html

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Latin_Crepin@reddit

Maybe the pilot is used to the 320 but the 321 is a little longer.

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HanoibusGamer@reddit (OP)

Unlikely, VNA barely has any A320, unless the pilot moved from Vietjet or other airlines that have a bit more A320

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Latin_Crepin@reddit

I was surprised, so I looked it up. I'd often used A320s on domestic flights. They used to have 29, but now they only have three A320 Neos.

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Sprixce@reddit

Boeing-on-Airbus crime is crazy.

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Afraid_Argument2651@reddit

Definitely Boeing's fault /s

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space_monolith@reddit

The rivalry intensifies

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bdfan88@reddit

Dooo mai

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MtherapyHK@reddit

In the words of the infamous Austin Powers : “ I bet that’s expensive..”

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ABoutDeSouffle@reddit

Well, speed-tape is not going to fix that...

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-CountDooku@reddit

That’s hannoying!!

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yapoyt@reddit

Yoohoo one more win for the leasing companies

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Inevitable_Owl4338@reddit

Not what Vietnam need considering the backlog of their maintenance..

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JFliesthe350@reddit

Oh dear, that’s going to be a very expensive repair. Something similar at Seattle/Tacoma happened some time ago when a JAL 787’s right wing sliced into a Delta 737’s vertical stabilizer.

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Intergalatic_Baker@reddit

Oh fuck… The Ground crews are gonna be slaughtered for this cock up.

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Thomix2003@reddit

Air India would keep it flying.

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s_suraliya@reddit

Almost had a panic attack reading the first few words.

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hilav19660@reddit

These type of accidents seem to happen way too often

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cincinn_audi@reddit

Okay, see what he did there? He clipped another plane. You clip when you taxi, you're gonna have a bad time.

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Mekazabiht-Rusti@reddit

That looks expensive

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Academic_Tip_2435@reddit

$50m loss for airline right there

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LCARSgfx@reddit

No

The whole A321 doesn't even cost that.
The tail certainly won't
The tail is a modular part and can be replaced,

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Academic_Tip_2435@reddit

I'm also adding the loss due to delays and cancellations

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Rupperrt@reddit

let’s see your calculations then

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Academic_Tip_2435@reddit

Lol I just threw a random number without calculation

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Rupperrt@reddit

just joking since you said “I am also adding” lol

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LCARSgfx@reddit

No way will that equal $50M

Airlines would go bankrupt everyday if this sort if incident and the resulting delays cost that much.

This is what insurance is for anyhow.

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jstknwn@reddit

I’m not sure, they might be right. I think list price of an A321 was like $120m…

Sure you don’t need a whole new aircraft but a planes only makes money when it’s flying. With inspections, repairs, checks, that aircraft being grounded, the maintenance crews and man hours, it might be close to $50m. Aviation is very very tightly regulated and those standards and regulations mean high costs.

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Rupperrt@reddit

The plane doesn’t even generate 50M revenue in a year, rather a bit less than half of it and the tail section should be between 1-5M depending if they use a new or overhauled part. So even if it’d take a whole year to repair it would probably not get up to 50M

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747ER@reddit

VN never paid $120m for this plane. They would’ve negotiated a much, much lower price from Airbus to begin with, and it has spent the last 13 years depreciating from that price every day. The CEO of Delta Air Lines famously said they could acquire second-hand widebody 777 airliners for just $10m, and considering how many available A321 Classics and competing aircraft are on the market, I’d say this plane is worth much less than even that.

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BlueOdyssey@reddit

Wonder what the insurance excess is for that one.

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Bourbon65@reddit

So 300-500 people also had a bad day waiting for rescheduled flights. I'll bet that wasn't frustrating at all.

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maxathier@reddit

Boeing again...

(/s)

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