I, Borg
Posted by Kinae66@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 55 comments
I’m pissed about this episode.
Picard postulates that perhaps the borg, Hugh’s sense of ‘I’ may be felt by the other borgs and ‘maybe’ will have some effect. What about all the other SINGULAR BEINGS that the borg assimilates? They would ALL have a sense of ‘I’. I hate his reasoning. He should have ordered the ‘impossible puzzle’ implanted into ‘Hugh’.
Ugh. It’s the WORST episode. (I’m watching them in order).
JayRMac@reddit
The plan wasn't to infect the Borg with individuality, the plan was to commit genocide. But then they remembered that committing genocide is a bad thing, even when you think the enemy really deserves it. So they decide not to commit genocide and send Hugh back as is.
The whole "maybe his individuality will affect the others" was just looking for a silver lining after making the difficult decision to do the right thing.
sorotomotor@reddit
The plan was to commit genocide. But then they remembered that committing genocide is a bad thing.
The Borg are the ones committing genocide; their entire existence is based on genocide. The puzzle program wouldn't be effective if the Borg weren't actively engaged in genocide.
JayRMac@reddit
"committing genocide is a bad thing, even when you think the enemy really deserves it."
I stand by my full quote.
Also, the program had nothing to do with genocide, it was just a 3-D puzzle that doesn't have a solution. The crew only considered it because they feared the Borg, but fear leads people to making the wrong decisions. Genocide is wrong.
blyattBear@reddit
It's not genocide. The borg destroyed hundreds, maybe thousands of unique cultures. The borg are essentially slaves. Destroying them would be a net positive.
BurdenedMind79@reddit
So...killing slaves is a good thing?
Just think of all those ex-Borg we see in the future (such as good ol' Seven of Nine) murdered by Picard and co, never getting the opportunity he had to be de-assimilated.
Surely stopping a slave trader by murdering all their slaves would be a huge atrocity. Freeing the slaves might be riskier and harder, but its clearly the right thing to do.
justin_xv@reddit
Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, blyattBear? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.
5bflow@reddit
Why would someone being a slave make killing them a net positive?
RedSunCinema@reddit
You're right. Genocide is wrong. But sometimes it's a solution to an unsolvable problem. As with everything in life, it depends on context.
watanabe0@reddit
I am also totally on board with genociding the genociders.
BedroomVisible@reddit
That just makes you a “genocider”, though, justifying violence against you. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. At some point you have to show humanity and forgiveness. To commit an atrocity sacrifices the one advantage that we have over the Borg and that is our humanity and compassion.
watanabe0@reddit
Being better than them doesn't get us shit in the real world. Fuck em.
RedSunCinema@reddit
Unfortunately, most people are incapable of making a decision for the greater good. If faced with insurmountable odds and the annihilation of your own people or your own kind, sometimes it's better to completely destroy the enemy than allow everything you know to be wiped from existence. That's a cold hard fact of real life, not science fiction.
worm-friend@reddit
An absolute justification, that there is no other option, or that it "must" be done, is usually the justification that is used for genocide in real life. We can't really say for certain whether it's the only option. At this point in the series, the Federation has already fended off the Borg once by conventional means, and is working on new weapons (the Defiant) capable of fighting the Borg.
That said, since it's all fictional anyway, so what are the values and ideas that you really want to convey here? In a series that is intended to lay out a new vision for human culture and values in the future, do you really want an episode using a very contrived plot to make a justification for genocide? One of the major themes in TNG to contrast to our current society where violence is a primary means to achieve personal or political gain, and genocide is common and widely accepted under various justifications. Do we really need a revelation that, oh yeah, sometimes genocide actually IS justified! Why is that cool or satisfying? It's still just an urge to justify violence and make the audience feel good about it (even if you come up with a contrived plot to make it "make sense" in this one unique instance).
RedSunCinema@reddit
The justifications that are being used in real life have no bearing on the circumstances that occur with The Borg. In real life, human beings who commit genocide do it out of greed and hatred. The Borg do it because that's the essence of who they are. They don't know the difference because while they assimilate everything they encounter, they don't learn from them or live in balance with other life forms. All they do is consume, assimilate, and destroy. Humans aren't like that so the comparison is moot.
If humanity ever encountered a lifeform that had the singular drive to wipe out the human species because it was inherent in their construction to consume everything on the planet and wipe out everything that was of no use to them, then we would have no choice but to annihilate them in order to survive. When reason and intellect and compassion can't reach the opposition and you have no other choice to survive, you either go scorched earth or you die and the other side wins.
Spackleberry@reddit
Genocide is wrong for a variety of reasons, nearly all of which have to do with the immorality of killing innocent people.
The Borg do not fit into that moral framework. They are a hive mind, meaning there are no individuals. There are no Borg civilians, Borg dissenters, or even a Borg leadership that can be negotiated with.
The closest allegory to the Borg would be a virus. We have no qualms about eradicating smallpox, malaria, or any other infectious disease. We shouldn't have any problems destroying the Borg.
What, are we worried about the Borg innocents on the cube that destroyed the fleet at Wolf 359? No.
Tebwolf359@reddit
The Borg defy the conventional definition of genocide, which is what makes this difficult.
The Borg aren’t a species, or a culture. They are a single organism, and killing that organism isn’t genocide, but self defense.
Genocide is wrong. But not least of which is because there are always innocents caught.
If 100 soldiers come over the kill shooting at you, it’s not genocide to kill all of them, even if that turns out to be the entire clan.
There are no innocents in the borg, just bodies who are forced into a slavery worse then death.
If the option to free them all existed, then it would be better then wiping the Borg out.
But it doesn’t. So with that, ever second you let the Borg continue, another species of trillions of people die.
If you think for a second the virus would have worked, then Jean-Luc Picard is personally responsible for the death of every human after that point. EVery Skarran as their world was assimilated and their people converted into slaves.
Every DQ species that saw an end of their future has him to blame, and almost the galaxy when the Borg invaded 8472.
P
Settra_does_not_Surf@reddit
It would be genocide ans be morally and ethically wrong.
Strategically it would have been a coin toss.
The borg existed for a long time, assimilated untold numbers of species. Chances are that at least one used a similar strategy. Since the borg still are there, one might consider that such an attempt would instantly move your species up on the borgs shit list. So you get 200 cubes dropped on you asap.
Using the program might have killed the borg or invite heavy retribution. I am with Picard in thisncase, but not on moral reason. If they had a 100 peecent surefire way then yes, nuke the fckers.
Beautiful_Ad2618@reddit
The Picard in this episode ain't the same Picard as the one in First Contact that's for sure!
Dizzy-Violinist-1772@reddit
The mark of a good episode is not whether or not you agree with it but whether or not it can spark fierce theological debate for and against. 33 years later and this episode is still doing that exact thing. To me that marks it as one of the best of Trek
manlybrian@reddit
The arguments in this thread are why I love old-school Star Trek, lol. Moral and ethical dilemmas.
BuffaloRedshark@reddit
Difference was he regained individuality after having been wiped and assimilated.
StickOnReddit@reddit
There isn't really anything to support this, just probably my dumb internal reasoning, but I figured that Hugh's individuality was distinct because he was already assimilated and so the presumption was that it would essentially get past the "firewall" as it were
Like the assimilation process strips away self-identity before the unit is fully integrated into the Collective, so when they get logged into the shared wifi they don't have a self left to muck things up
...or something. Idk.
Traxathon@reddit
Completely disagree, this is one of my favorite episodes. Genocide ain't OK, and Hugh's individuality proved it WOULD be genocide.
TheMightyTywin@reddit
The borg isn’t a race and destroying them all isn’t genocide
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
Aren't*
Ah, not a genocide all - just good old fashioned mass murder! All's right!
TheMightyTywin@reddit
It’s like killing zombies
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
Zombies can't become people again. Borg can.
TheMightyTywin@reddit
A good point - but if they become people again they are still their original race and not borg.
So borg was never a race and killing them all isn’t genocide
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
Which is why I wrote "ah not a genocide at all - just mass murder!"
The comment you, let me check my notes, responded to.
LOUDCO-HD@reddit
Where is Kevin Uxbridge when you need him?
Effective-Board-353@reddit
He'll only do that to the Hughsnock.
Alternative-Juice-15@reddit
There are much worse episodes bro
Kinae66@reddit (OP)
I’m not your bro, pal. 😝
tlacatl@reddit
If you’re watching them in order you watched season 1 and 2, and this is the worst episode?
Kinae66@reddit (OP)
Lol! Yeah, I guess there were some lame episodes in the first seasons, but none that had me angry at Picard.
duckwaltz0@reddit
You missed the point.
LadyAtheist@reddit
If you haven't watched Voyager yet, you'll love it. Janeway is totally badass in the Borg stories.
Donjeur@reddit
I just wonder if they only assimilate humanoid beings. Would they assimilate elephants and lions to complement their ground invasion forces?
ducbo@reddit
If you think this is the worst episode, brace yourself for season 7
BedroomVisible@reddit
The impossible puzzle is a war crime. Tantamount to strapping a bomb on a baby and sending it back to its home. That Picard and Guinan even considered it shows their intense motivations overriding their better judgement.
Realizing that a Borg can operate individually and gain complete sentience as an individual makes them sacred, just like any other person of any other species. Realize that you can’t sacrifice a culture in order to save another because to do so ignores this sacredness. It removes the future potential of each and every Borg individual. That Hugh sacrificed himself to save Geordi proves that HE wouldn’t commit this act, and so WE have no right to do it to him.
--m-e-h--@reddit
I hate more the fact that Hugh still thinks Picard is Locutus. Why would he think that? Wouldn't the borg know he is no longer part of the collective? And the follow up episode's, Decent 1 and 2 make no sense at all, and are the worst borg episodes imo
rootxploit@reddit
Alternative explanation: To Hugh, Locutus may have celebrity status, while Picard was just a Starfleet Captain. Maybe analogous to meeting Dwayne Johnson in real life and calling him “The Rock”. Or meeting Patrick Stewart in person and calling him Captain Picard.
moktira@reddit
"I, Borg" is one of my favourite episodes, but Hugh thinking Picard is Locutus is a bit daft even if the Borg weren't as fleshed out at that point. Descent however, is just a really bad episode and makes very little sense.
Tedfufu@reddit
Voyager demonstrated that the puzzle problem was flawed, and would not work. Icheb's parents tried something similar and the Borg adapted to that as well. The idea would have killed one borg cube at most. Sending Hugh back was more disruptive to the collective, but also caused a massacre of innocent people when Hugh's group went rogue.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
Icheb's parents tried a biological virus. I'm not saying the puzzle problem necessarily would have worked, but it was an entirely different method. The point of the puzzle problem was that it wouldn't occur to the collective that it was a problem until everyone has already been exposed to it. Also, the Borg didn't adapt to the virus. They cut off the cube that was infected before they could be exposed. The puzzle may have been able to spread to several cubes before they got cut off. We'll just never know.
JugOfVoodoo@reddit
Not just Icheb's parents. In Voyager's "Infinite Regress" a species tried to infect the Borg with a virus. All it did was screw up one solitary cube and give Seven multiple personality disorder.
ZealousidealClub4119@reddit
Well said.
Lore finding Hugh's' crew was highly improbable, but when the episode is as good as Descent I'll forgive such a contrived premise.
Beneficial-Hippo5386@reddit
I hated what became of the Borg starting with this episode. They went from unfeeling, cold, calculating, unstoppable space monsters that could take your best shot, adapt and when they beat you you would be alive but your whole soul/identity erased. Then they became just another species out there in space. Voyager practically walked right through them and First Contact they looked dumb.
Longjumping-Low8194@reddit
Wait till you get to Sub Rosa.
devlincaster@reddit
Don’t you fucking cahndle-shame me
hollow4hollow@reddit
Dinnae cahndle shame
PM_ME_UR_FLOWERS@reddit
You're not Nana! Nana is dead! LEAVE HER ALONE!
Thousands of years fucking Beverly's ancestors and he never picked up on the 'don't desecrate the dead' custom.
Fine-Funny6956@reddit
Guy did a lot of plowing on that farm and still never picked that up.
IamZed@reddit
Duna light that candle lassie!!
Suitable_Elk6199@reddit
Seems like the primary concept of the Borg has been lost. The Borg is a collective hive mind. When a being is assimilated, that being will lose sense of self and individuality.