Opportunity for pub take over 20% of wet sales, 20% of room take and 100% food is for your own rest is for marstons, should I or shouldn't I?
Posted by TheDutchess_420@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 66 comments
I've the opportunity to run a pub for marstons, I've always thought I would run this pub one day for ten years now, it has changed owners more times then you can count on two hands and I think it's because it's not loved and used to it's full potential and a lot of the owners have ended up on the other side of bar more then being behind it. It seems alike a lot of them just hired young people to work there and the last two owners didn't even serve coffee or exploited the food option. Ive spoken to a few people and they say it is because they only get a 20% of the rooms and its not viable.
I have experience in running a pub in the Netherlands for three years and this was my passion, I had to stop this for personal reasons and was devastated, since then I've had two children who are 6 and 10 now, I have discussed this with them too and talked to them about how much time it takes to run a pub. They are both willing to support me if I could get it but I feel huge mum guilt at the same time, on the other hand it would be working for myself to give them a better future if it would all work out and not working for a boss earning them money. I don't shy away from the hard work,.my previous pub was open 7 days a week, 365 days a year and I ran this with just my mother and I.
This pub is located in the north of the UK in a small town which has a very busy summer and holiday periods but is completely dependant on locals any time in between.
I've got no financial security or savings so I would need to get a build up deposit and a loan to start up too, but with a good plan I think this would be possible I'm on UC at the moment so I would have them as back up to start up as I would be going self employed.
Help a girl (😅) out should I go for it or should I wait another couple years u till my children are a little bit older? Every answer would be appreciated 😁
cornishpirate32@reddit
If it were profitable they'd chuck a manager in to run it
Intelligent_Put_3520@reddit
This is the answer.
There are several pubs in my area who who's landlords got chucked out the moment the place got profitable. The brewery puts there own people in and the pub goes downhill again. They then repeat the cycle.
_oOo_iIi_@reddit
Yes. Marstons did that to a local pub near us. The people had run it for a while - they reopened it and brought it back to life. They struggled financially all the way through lock down. Soon as the lease came up for renewal they kicked them out and put new tenants in. It's now advertising for new managers again (3rd time since).
Woomas@reddit
This is absolutely not true. Often T&L or retail sites have higher returns than managed sites, also Managed sites have much higher overheads. Also you can’t just boot an operator out because it’s successful. Why would you do that? Certainly if contracts have been broken then that’s entirely possible.
NrthnLd75@reddit
This is a financial disaster waiting to happen. There's a reason so many people have failed to make a go of it. You'll likely be stuck with paying whatever Marston's decide you are paying for the drinks and they're taking 80% of that anyway. They are using you to facilitate what isn't a viable business for them.
Due_Specialist6615@reddit
you don't pay for the drinks in these deals, its 20% of total wet sales but Marstons set what you sell and at what price.
NrthnLd75@reddit
Fair enough. Still limiting though right?
CrabAppleBapple@reddit
Please ignore anyone telling you anything other than 'No, don't do it'.
Incubus-@reddit
I own a pub. I wouldn’t personally go anywhere near it, I think you’d work flat out and scrape a living, and that’s if it goes well.
atomic_mermaid@reddit
"I've had two children who are 6 and 10 now, I have discussed this with them too and talked to them about how much time it takes to run a pub. They are both willing to support me if I could get it"
...a 6 and 10 year old have no concept of what you're talking to them about.
PullUpAPew@reddit
"If we move to the pub, I will be busy for 103 Blueys every day"
mebutnew@reddit
Right?
I have a 6 year old and time is measured in 'yestersay' 'right now' and 'tomorrow'.
The idea that they have any meaningful understanding or opinion on this is laughable. They probably barely understand what a job is.
ashyboi5000@reddit
5 minutes can be the difference for "I think I need a wee" and bouncing up and running off for a wee.
Electronic-Trade-504@reddit
My five year old stretches his arms out and says "will it take this long? Or this long?".
Not sure children are best at gauging how long OP will be busy.
Ok_Young1709@reddit
This, and it's a sure sign that this is such a bad idea for op when she is taking advice from children on whether or not it's possible.
gash_dits_wafu@reddit
I don't think she was taking advice from them. I inferred that she was letting them know she was going to be busy, and wanted to know how they felt about that.
(Which is still an issue because a 6 year old will not be able to comprehend just how busy their mum will be if she is running a pub. They'll hear their mum say "I'll be busy but I'll still be here for you" and think "nothing will change, mum will still be here all the time" because they have no useful context against which to critically analyse what their mum is saying)
TheCotofPika@reddit
A classmate of one of my children has a mother who owns a pub. She has asked multiple times last minute for another parent to pick up and drop off her child because of work. I'm not saying she's a bad parent, I'm saying that owning a pub and having young children is incompatible without constant backup.
thegerbilmaster@reddit
Thank fuck this is near the top hahahahah
ch536@reddit
Absolutely - if I told my 6yo I was going to grow wings and fly around in the clouds she would believe and support me. They still have zero concept of basically anything at 6
Carrente@reddit
The children yearn to labour as doughty English publicans
HAZZ3R1@reddit
Your profit will be on the food, 20% of wet will hardly cover wet costs. 20% of rooms will be the same with cleaning and replacing items.
You need to be confident in the kitchen and know that the place will be full of eaters not drinkers. So unless you can run the kitchen yourself and don't need a head & sous chef it's doable.
Also note that Marston's usually will dictate you must buy all wet stock from them, so you can't negotiate better rates making gp again very hard.
If you mean 20% of profit it's a different story, but it's very hard to run an 80% wet GP which is your break even mark.
Due_Specialist6615@reddit
These deals its 20% of total wet take, however the brewery sets the price and your opening hours. It sounds great in theory but if you have to be open from 12-11pm seven days a week and you are responsible for all staff costs. These pubs aren't turning over huge amounts of money and if you do start doing well then the % is negotiated or they come for a % of the food.
TickityTickityBoom@reddit
I’ve got a Marstons pub, we took it on last November, if working 80 hours week for less than minimum wage floats your boat, then go for it.
Marstons have a food operation, if the pub you are taking doesn’t have this, it means it’s not going to be profitable with food.
We’re stepping down in September. We’ve not lost money, but not made any, we don’t live in, you are responsible for staff cost.
It was an itch that we wanted to scratch, with running a pub, but you’re overworked and underpaid.
You’ll need £5k deposit around £1k for fees and spend 7 days in Wolverhampton for the training course, one is 5 days and the other two are two separate days.
I’d also put aside around £5k for cash flowing the business.
You get paid ever Friday, however you need to take the VAT out of what you pay, so for example, you sell £10k product, you get £2k but take £400 out to pay your vat bill.
Large-Butterfly4262@reddit
An awful lot of pubcos make more money off incoming tenants than they do trading those pubs. The uk is full of people who think they can run a pub. I don’t know your back ground and maybe you can run a pub, but the companies are against you and the industry is in very poor health.
DeapVally@reddit
You aren't going to be able to afford many staff at those rates, so it will be a total time sink with rooms as well. Enjoy your kids while you can. There's plenty of time for running a pub when they don't really care if you're around or not. A 6 and 10 year old wants to play and do things with their parents. Teenagers, far less so.
Robmeu@reddit
It seems crazy to me that a company like Marstons would WANT to run their pubs so poorly. Every time the pub is closed because they wanted the whole pie it takes no money, which could be weeks or months. Why not just make it a viable proposition? Continuous slightly smaller profit is far better than endless boom and bust.
And as an actual brewery you’d have thought they’d know better?
Final personal note, any brewery (or anyone) who tries to apply to convert a pub to housing automatically gets their pub compulsorily purchased for a guinea (I like old school money) and is dragged through the streets behind a drayhorse.
WitShortage@reddit
I have some experience in this industry, and I wouldn't do it.
A managed estate pub like this is a good opportunity if you want to cut your teeth as the proprietor in the long run, but it's hard graft for not much money. The pub industry as a whole is on its knees right now. It definitely wouldn't be for me.
Also, consider your children. They're about to go into the time of life where they will need you more than ever, even if they'd rather eat glass than admit it. It's terribly exciting to think Mummy might be running her own business, but the glamour wears off when you're working night after night.
I'm not saying don't ever do this, but from my knowledge of the industry and what you've said about your life and this specific property, it definitely sounds like bad fit for you right now
el_duderino_316@reddit
You have young kids. You need a job that lets you be a family. This isn't it.
elbapo@reddit
The problem for me is marstons. Without meaning to target one particular leaseholder- it applies to others also (green king, Robinson etc)- they will narrow the scope of the change you are able to make- and straightjacket you in terms of decor, investment and the products you are able to offer.
I have no experience running pubs, but from experience on the other side it's hard to turn around a pubs reputation (clientele and demographic can often literally span generations). Its even harder when you are restricted in your creativity by a brewer.
The pubs which have really done it have either been owned by one owner or by a small chain which knows its stuff, has full creative freedom on products and ambuience and can make their own investments to reap their own rewards.
This is not to say you should not do it- but just be aware of the head winds against you to really make a difference if its with marstons.
BathFullOfDucks@reddit
I really genuinely hope you go for it and make it work but you're in a very precarious position. Your financial future is at the whim or your patrons, which you can have an effect on and the brewery, which you can't. The terms also make it very difficult for you to succeed - what is the highest margin item in a pub, besides the slot machines? The booze. What is the lowest margin, if not loss making item? The food. What are they taking and what are they offering?
Comfortable-mouse05@reddit
Red flag city. Stay away. Also if you have to ask then I think you have an idea
I double wouldn't with two young kids
taulish_paul@reddit
From a punter who had a natural affinity to Marstons having grown up drinking in their pubs: I actively avoid using their pubs because IMO they profiteer off the rolling bankruptcies of their tenant landlords, (and just sell the pub for housing if that fails to give them the returns they require). I had that done to my local, and the last bankruptcy was of a landlord who was very hard working, a good chef, and knew how to run a pub - with lots of customers. Marston's beer is pants these days anyway and you're constrained in what else you can sell and pay an inflated cost for their beer. It might look like a reasonable deal to you, but they are the one's with all the data on that pub. You probably have an emotional attachment to the idea of running it, and that is skewing your judgement. I wonder if the best approach for under-used pubs is community ownership. If the locals own it, they might use it more, and these customers have a bigger say in how it's run - for better or worse. If you're happy to declare yourself bankrupt in a couple of years, then you could have a go, it would satisfy your curiousity and you'd have a new experience - but I expect in will place a strain on you. Perhaps a better option is out there...
Ambitious_League4606@reddit
That's what I heard. They put immense pressure on landlords and keep changing terms to extract more revenue out of the business.
blueslander@reddit
do not come to this subreddit for this, if everyone listened to people here then no business would ever open in the UK.
British_redditor@reddit
I mean the sub Reddit doesn't really matter. Fact is running a Marston's pub as a landlord/Lady is a terrible idea, especially with little savings and 2 kids.
Witty_Entry9120@reddit
Absolutely not. Please get help.
You have no money, not enough experience and to be honest...not enough expertise based on the questions you're asking. The fact you're on UC with two dependents and considering this is worrying.
I do consulting for small businesses and see this kind of thing from time to time.
There's money to be made by getting naïve people to hand over cash like this. If you don't do well...they keep the money you put into it. I don't know why hospitality sees this often...I think a lot of people have a dream of being a pub / restaurant owner in a romantic fantasy..who knows.
If it does well they turf you out and employ a salaried manager.
You are the customer here.
British_redditor@reddit
I wouldn't. My dad / his wife ran a Marston's pub for around 3 years a while back. I also lived there and helped to run things.
You have to also remember that with the type of agreement, you have to pay your staff out of what's left each month, and for the hours you put in you are probably earning less than min wage.
If you fail any audits, they can also get rid of you and then you are homeless with 2 kids.
There is a reason why a lot of these pubs have high turn over every few years. If it was successful, the pub would be managed and you would be on a salary.
terahurts@reddit
One of my nieces and her partner have just handed the keys back to the brewery after trying to run a pub in a small semi-coastal town that's averaged a new landlord a year. They've left with quite a large amount of debt that was only getting bigger. The profits from the busy summer months were not enough to cover the quiet winter ones and the owners were more interested in extracting every penny they could from the business than they were in doing anything to increase footfall or supporting the landlords.
Do a lot of research. Talk to other landlords who work for brewery and not just the ones the brewery suggest.
VeedleDee@reddit
I had a family member end up bankrupt after taking on a small town pub. This was someone who'd worked in pubs for years as well, so they knew the business. Turned out there was a reason the previous landlord was trying to get out. The profits just weren't there, and the brewery wasn't interested in doing anything to help. It's been turning over landlords ever since.
I also worked in a pub for a landlord and his family, neither of whom had ever worked in hospitality or anything close to it, who took it on because they thought it sounded like a nice life. They were constantly complaining about having to pay us, their profits were so low they couldn't draw a salary after costs, and unhelpfully their family took a lot of liberties. More than once I'd come in in the morning to start prep and find lots of my kitchen stock missing, including the entire days worth of bacon because the eldest daughter had a party and made everyone bacon sandwiches for the hangover. That was a huge whack of the lunch menu gone. I wasn't shocked to hear they'd had to give the keys back and left after two years, I was more shocked they'd lasted that long.
It's a brutal business. The work is hard, the money comes even harder, and OP has young children who realistically aren't going to be able to offer any kind of support. I wouldn't recommend they go through with this idea.
thesaltwatersolution@reddit
I’d also look at how tied you are to the Brewery’s own (products) beers. If you as a landlord have the freedom to get a few different guest ales and ciders on, then there’s a chance some of the CAMRA crowd might trickle in. But I suspect that the brewery will want to have a big say in that.
zephyrmox@reddit
If you re on UC, you re not realistically going to be ble to afford this, surely?
ch536@reddit
The legal fees alone to make it official will be thousands alone
mkaym1993@reddit
Do you have to pay any rent, or is the rent essentially the percentages that Marston are taking?
I’d ask some more questions: what’s the current turnover, what’s the percentage of wet/dry split of that turnover, current gross profit on drinks and food (you want food to be at least 70% GP to be viable in my opinion, do you think you can manage that?). How many rooms?
Also, are you a chef, or will you need to pay for one? Generally speaking bar staff and cheaper and easier to find than a chef, if you are working off 100% profit from food, if £40k of that is eaten away by the chefs salary then it will seriously reduce your take home. On top of that if the chef leaves (chefs are known for being very volatile), you could suddenly find your main source of income has gone until you can find a new chef, thus causing serious financial issues.
I’m not saying don’t go for it, but it sounds like you need to ask many more questions and then seriously think everything through before going for it.
matmah@reddit
Spending 18 hours a day working for a few years to find yourself heavily in debt and your kids becoming strangers is not a good idea. Even more so if you live in social housing and have to give up a house/flat etc.
Find a chain of pubs and apply for a managerial position. You'd be running the pub, work a reasonable amount of time, and have both financial and job security.
spaceshipcommander@reddit
I think the biggest issue will be deciding whether the 6 or 10 year old will be bar manager
PM-me-your-cuppa-tea@reddit
Wait what? Support you how?
It's changed hands loads, you don't have the capital you need. Politely I'd say now isn't the time and this sinking ship of a pub isn't the one.
Scared_Turnover_2257@reddit
This feels like a bad idea
1/You have a 6 year old and a 10 year old so is this the time to be taking a 12 hour day 7 day a week job.
2/Pubs are dying in the UK
3/You can't afford it and will be going into debt to fund it given its got a 50/50 chance of success this feels risky
Farty_McPartypants@reddit
I think my decision would be based upon what value you were getting 20% of... without the actual turnover figures, its hard to say.
aggravatedyeti@reddit
What is ‘room take’? Googling has completely failed to enlighten me
bonamoureux@reddit
Probably hotel/guest room accommodation. Whether they take 20% of profit or turnover is unknown.
jimicus@reddit
WARNING: Here be dragons!
The pub industry in the UK isn't really a pub industry.
It's a dreams industry.
The owner of the pub sells the dream of running a pub to some silly bugger for a few thousand. There are terms attached that make it physically impossible to make money - chances are you'll be obliged to buy all your drinks from Marstons or from a nominated supplier they own. That supplier will charge you over the odds and your options are to either ramp your prices up (and drive customers away) or eat it (and suddenly your margins don't work).
When you inevitably have to throw in the towel and close up, they flog the dream to some other poor sod who's just been made redundant and has £10,000 burning a hole in their pocket.
weavin@reddit
Run a mile
Inevitable_Stage_627@reddit
Wait for it to get taken over again and get a job there. Find out from the landlords how it is and how marstons are to work for. If it goes under and the landlords are out and the opportunity comes up again, you’d have more inside info to be able to make an informed choice.
On the face of it right now, it would be too big a risk for very little reward.
zonked282@reddit
Cute, a passion project
Immorals1@reddit
Don't do it. Running a pub is a one way ticket to severe mental health issues atm
ThePintHouse@reddit
You didn't mention if you have a personal licence and you'll need that if you want to run a pub, those cost over £100 to do the one day course which isn't a guarantee you'll pass the exam.
Also if you're having to pay to even get into the door of running the pub, don't. This is where a lot of the pubcos/brewery pubs make money on landlord turnover. Taking out a loan for this would be financial suicide, cause you have no idea if you'd still be running it 6 months or a year later and then you're shouldered with personal debt unsure if you can pay it off
The high landlord turnover is a huge red flag I imagine they start running the pub starts making money they then get a rent review and it goes up, as the business is doing well but the growth doesn't continue money gets even tighter. Which wouldn't most likely come out of your already very small wages
I've been in the industry for 10 years and the industry couldn't be more on its knees right now.
But if you really want to do this you need to do some leg work and ask the locals about the pub, did they go there before, what would they like to see, what would make them go again. As they will be paying your bills for 7/8months of the year
lil-smartie@reddit
What are you responsible for out of those %? Electric & heating bills could be huge expenses plus wages/pension/NI, VAT is a big cost as food is bought at 0 & sold at 20%...
BaBaFiCo@reddit
Marston's are one I'd avoid. History of treating their tenants badly.
Outrageous_Ad_4949@reddit
If you really want to run it, it should be a lease. Management agreements come and go.. you wake up one day to find out they like what you've done with the place and still want to kick you out.
Haribokart@reddit
Realistically with young kids and a business that is constantly under new management this sounds like a terrible idea. You fit the cliche of a typical Hotel Inspector episode and have way more chance of losing everything than succeeding. I'd strongly recommend against this.
DameKumquat@reddit
I have no idea what room take is, or what the 20% is of/how costs are accounted for here, but you need to look really carefully at the numbers for this particular pub and what the limitations are - is there space for a coffee machine or better food provision? Have they tried better food, quiz nights, karaoke nights, baby groups, etc? Are there multiple rooms so you can have events without detering the regulars?
Talking to previous staff is a really good idea. It's unfortunately more likely that Marstons don't want a profit than all the staff in 5 years were stupid. But not necessarily the case.
djashjones@reddit
Not worth it. It's not the same.
AkousSWD@reddit
Running pubs is notoriously difficult, especially in the UK.
I worked for a Marstons at uni, and they were awful according to our landlady.
The fact its changed owners more times than you can count, says all that needs to be said IMO.
Never met someone who sells a business that can have "such room for profit."
You have kids and are on UC—I'm all for making something of yourself and trying to start your own business, but this seems like a fiscally irresponsible idea.
If one of my friends were in your position and told me the same information, I'd tell them to look for business opportunities elsewhere.
Jaded_Library_8540@reddit
I think it's good to keep in mind that if others are struggling to run it effectively, that's a solid sign you'll struggle too. It could be that everyone else who's had a punt has just been too thick to do it right, but I'd be careful taking on a risk like this on the assumption that you just know better (especially if you've got no prior experience)
Randomfinn@reddit
Have a real hard look at the numbers. If you can, talk to former owners in depth about their personal experience with the pub. Also, how was the relationship with the local council, with other businesses, and local residents.
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