Is lightweight the new direction for sports cars?

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Racer20@reddit

I develop cars for a living. Lightweighting has practical limits related to cost and durability, and I don’t think we’ll see another big leap there for several more years, at least in the sub-hyper car realm.

There is still tons of opportunity to enhance the driving experience, but many of them are in areas that are less obvious to the consumer.

Active systems like torque vectoring, active aero, active toe/camber control, active bars, fully active suspension, and rear steer can all break trade-offs in big ways, more than people might think.

We’re also just scratching the surface by-wire systems now, and although there will be a learning curve to get the most out of them for the 1st generation, they will also enable things that were impossible just 10yrs ago.

AI and Neural Net models are starting to creep into some of the most challenging areas of vehicle development, such as dampers and their adaptive controls, traction control, yaw/sideslip estimation, and more. These systems are never “optimized” and there will always be room for improvement and different approaches. These new modeling methods will help engineers get closer to the vehicle’s target character with fewer trade-offs. Integrated controllers to tie all the subsystems together under one brain are also improving each generation.

Despite all these active systems, making a car good to drive is still heavily reliant on skilled engineers making the decisions to calibrate and integrate all these systems from a subjective point of view, and it’s one of the hardest jobs in automotive industry.

I drive a manual GT4 and only recently sold my 2005 ZHP but there are roads and situations where I can have just as much fun in a Taycan GTS, Model 3, or base Cayenne because modern cars are extremely capable and being good to drive is more about how the car and its systems are integrated together than how heavy it is, what kind of fuel it uses, or anything else you’ll find on a spec sheet.

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cobalt1365@reddit

In your experience, will carbon fiber parts ever reach close enough to cost parity to be widely adopted? I think the BMW i3 was ahead of its time for a mass-produced car, and could have pointed the way to an era of much lighter passenger cars.

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Racer20@reddit

I don’t think so. I’m not a materials guy but BMW is moving away from that approach after 15years and nobody else seems to be rushing to copy them. Besides cost, I think the manufacturing capacity, material handling, and environmental

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MrIncredible222@reddit

“Active systems like torque vectoring, active aero, active toe/camber control”…. And on.

No offense, this sounds terrible. I want to drive the car, not be a passenger while the car does all this BS for me. Thank God the Miata still gets it. Increasingly they seem like the only ones.

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Racer20@reddit

No offense taken, and I can’t deny that small, simple cars are awesome. But these systems allow you to have your cake and eat it too. These days you don’t have to completely give up driving satisfaction if you can’t afford a third car or need to carry more than two people.

For 2 decades I drove nothing but 6MT RWD cars, so I get it.

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reward72@reddit

I wish you were right, but look at Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari sales of SUVs versus sports car and it tells how very few of us are left. People just want a badge, cool tech and enough cup holders. When they do care about performance, they only really pay attention to 0-60 times.

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dr_strange-love@reddit

That's Lotus' entire business plan

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boxerbroscars@reddit

Marketing sells. The average consumer doesnt know much about cars and likes hearing big numbers. Highest hp, highest towing, highest fuel efficiency, highest safety rating, etc

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

I dont think the average consumer is buying a ZR1X and the Porsche sports cars have a strong customer base despite often times having less power than their competitors

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MentalMiilk@reddit

I wonder how much of the modern fanbase is driven by track times though. The GT3RS may have ~150 less hp than a Z06, but it'll beat it around a track. That's still a number Porsche can market around.

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fatitalianstallion@reddit

Except a gt3rs is priced higher than a zr1 and zr1x, which wipe the floor with the gt3rs. It’s not a z06 competitor. It only was bc that was the most expensive vette at the time

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5tudent_Loans@reddit

None of these comments are even factoring in depreciation, scarcity, brand value, historical build quality, and most of all, exclusivity.

The people who can buy 10 of each care more about having their 1 of 12 embroidery stitching than they do about 100hp. Because they are assets and toys. Especially when *even if the ZR1(X) is better on paper, and even on track. Corvette depreciation WAAAY worse

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fatitalianstallion@reddit

911s depreciate. They’re commodity performance cars like Vettes , but a price tier higher. Absent super limited run versions they’ll drop, but the limited gain temporary bumps. C7 zr1 held value better by % than most 911s based in n low production.

Low production desirable vehicles with historical significance hold value long term. Good example is the gen 5 viper acr and acr-e. Highest performing manual car so it keeps gaining.

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NotFastEnoughYet@reddit

Are you really trying to argue that Corvettes hold their value as well as 911s?

Also, what data is there that the ZR1 is meaningfully faster than a GT3RS, let alone "wipes the floor" with it? (not talking straight line speed) Honest question as I haven't seen many lap times from the ZR1 yet, and last generation that was certainly not the case.

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Fantastic_Train_7270@reddit

https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/chevys-175k-corvette-zr1-destroys-mclaren-senna-and-porsche-gt3-rs-lap-records/
Watkins Glen Long Course: 1:52.7.
Road America: 2:08.6.
Road Atlanta: 1:22.8.
Virginia International Raceway Full Course: 1:47.7.
Virginia International Raceway Grand Course: 2:32.3.

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NotFastEnoughYet@reddit

Pretty impressive, and no one has ever questioned the Corvette's position as the best performance bang for your bucket. Maybe more true today than ever... Not that anyone has ever bought a Porsche for the same reason.

Still, I have some questions. Same [highly skilled] driver, same day, zero mods, back-to-back is generally the best way to eliminate as many variables as possible. Not that track times are going to impact my buying decisions lol, but they are fun to argue about.

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Fantastic_Train_7270@reddit

Those times were set by gm designers and engineers btw. Skilled but not pro drivers

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NotFastEnoughYet@reddit

That's fine, doesn't change my overarching point.

This is why track times are nothing more than something fun to argue about on the internet. Ultimately they are silly reasons to buy any car. 95% of these buyers never see a race track (I do), and 98% of those who do get to a track will never even sniff these times (dis me, I slow). Buy the car you enjoy, and then make the best performance modification possible: learn to drive. (Speaking generally, not just to you)

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BTTWchungus@reddit

The delusion from you Porsche fanboys is off the chart - the ZR1 makes fucking double the GT3's horsepower.

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NotFastEnoughYet@reddit

And also weighs about 700 lbs more. There's a reason a Dodge Demon is not faster than a GT3 RS.

Regardless, I really don't have a horse in this race. I love Corvettes. They were my dream car for almost my entire childhood and early adulthood, and I almost bought a C7 Grandsport before I test drove a 981 GT4.... I will always admire the performance value of Vettes.

But I just want us to be honest about data if we're going to go magazine racing on the internet. Track times are fun to argue about on the internet, but ultimately silly reasons to buy any car. 97% of these buyers never see a race track (I do), and 98% of those who do get to a track will never even sniff these times (dis me, I slow). Buy the car you enjoy, and then make the best performance modification possible: learn to drive. (Speaking generally, not just to you)

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Bonerchill@reddit

You seen Jeff Kline wrangle a Ginetta G4 against GT350s and other cars with double the power?

https://youtu.be/akZvkiPOm6c?feature=shared

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BTTWchungus@reddit

Did you neglect to mention that Jeff Kline's Ginetta G4 isn't stock and has more than double the original power it's supposed to have?

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Bonerchill@reddit

i neglect nothing and like it

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fatitalianstallion@reddit

You can look at the track records already. Creamed the gt3rs. Ring time expected 6:30 to 6:23. Closer to 956 time than 911 and faster than AMG one

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PlaneCandy@reddit

Can you be any more of a USDM fanboy?

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fatitalianstallion@reddit

Not really fanboy when speaking the truth. Dodge made a manual car faster than any manual Porsche has ever produced, and on a shoestring budget with mediocre tires. Still holds the times. Now Porsche is losing all production car records to GM.

Having a badge doesn’t make something the best. Zr1x is a hyper car killer for ~$200k. Even the zr1 does it already. Maybe this will force Porsche to stop using the inferior rear engine layout based on tradition. GM is now beating the Germans at the performance game and for a fraction of the price.

It’s just cope at this point that jorts and new balance enthusiasts will be driving higher performing cars than every single car produced by Germany, cars that came out of Kentucky.

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

Fair point but cars like the 718 Spyder, SRS, and 911 S/T aren’t about lap times and they have their fair share of fans

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MentalMiilk@reddit

To be sure, but those (imo) are exceptions to the rule. Enthusiasts love them, but I've never heard any of my non-car friends talk about the S/T or Spyder RS. They've mentioned the GT3RS though. Interesting what makes it into the zeitgeist.

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

And my point moreso was when you get into these very specific cars, a big chunk of the customer base is enthusiasts. I dont think the average rich guy trying to show off is going for a ZR1X. There is definitely a subset of the fast far market that is catering to what enthusiasts want and in same cases like the 911 S/T they are commanding insanely huge numbers

The 911 GT3 and GT3RS has definitely gotten into the show off market because they hold value well, are instantly recognizable, look flashy and take the rarity even further with PTS colors

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MentalMiilk@reddit

are instantly recognizable

I think that's the crux of the argument right there. People like their actions to be validated, so buying a car that makes people freak out when they see it (or at least give a thumbs up) is desirable. This goes double in the case of cars that most people can't afford—not only is their purchase being validated, their lifestyle is too.

I don't mean to say that all 3RS drivers are narcissists, but I've talked to a few owners and the attitude shift between early RS (up to 997) and later RS (991-on) is remarkable. To put it succinctly, older Porsche owners are usually Porsche enthusiasts. Newer ones are ~50/50 Porsche enthusiasts and wealth enthusiasts.

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

Agree with you there. And that may be partially why the GT3 touring has become popular. Buy a touring in GT Silver and the average joe cant tell it apart from a Carrera S

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woodsides@reddit

Yes but the only people actually getting an allocation for those without 6 figure ADMs are people who have already had 5-10 Porsches. You don't go through 5-10 Porsches without being a fan of the product and the brand.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Gt3rs doesn't need marketing. They get sold immediately for however much over sticker the dealer decides.

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MentalMiilk@reddit

Sure, but Porsche can use the spec sheet of a GT3RS to sell Steve Cryptobro a 911 C4.

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Weak-Specific-6599@reddit

And the GT3RS sucks as a daily driven vehicle on the street.

People buying it don’t buy it for daily driving though, unless they don’t like their kidneys.

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AtomWorker@reddit

Being wealthy doesn’t make you any more knowledgeable than the general public. Hell, based on my expertise over the years I’d even argue that most enthusiasts are ignorant of everything but the most superficial of stats.

These cars are status symbols.

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

A 300k ZR1X is not the car to show off with to other people who dont know cars. Yes its visibly expensive but to the unknowing person it looks the same as a Z06. And if someone is going to spend 300k to show off theyre better off in a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Mclaren

To a much lower extent, i think the same of the GT350. To many people, a mustang is a mustang so buying an expensive version of a mustang is terrible for showing off. In my experience many GT350 owners are actual enthusiasts because theyre buying it for the driving experience and not the show off value

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DanielG165@reddit

I doubt a fully specced ZR1X with the ZTK package will look like a Z06, nor any other Corvette for that matter. People will most definitely look and point if they see one passing by.

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

To you sure but to many people the C8 corvette looks like a Ferrari already. If someone wants to show off they dont need to go as high as a ZR1X. A base Z06 in red will make it indistinguishable from a Ferrari for many nom car enthusiasts

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MNAAAAA@reddit

They don't have to buy those specific cars for this to affect the whole ecosystem.

Marketing has dictated that bigger numbers = better, and even if what's in your price range doesn't top that hierarchy, whatever is is going to be part of that hierarchy

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Nero_Wolff@reddit

Miata, brz, gr86, hell even the supra makes less power than all its competitors

Overall i agree that the market favors big power too much, but cars that focus on other attributes arent impossible to find

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Surturiel@reddit

This obsession with towing numbers is an uniquely American (maybe Canadian) trait. It's almost like everyone secretly romanticizes being a semi hauler...

I'll never get it.

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Specialist-Size9368@reddit

You don't want to haul near the max towing if you do it regularly. Two weeks ago I hauled 2000lbs of wood in a 3k lb uhaul trailer. My trucks max tow is 7500lbs. My ranger can confidently pull that load. The trailer has brakes, but I can tell you my truck did not want to stop with that load in a hurry. I have hit the max on my truck a handful of times and you really give yourself a lot of room which other drivers won't.

In my area people having campers, boats, sxs, and dirt bikes is very common. Owning utility trailers here is equally common. Americans DIY a lot of things that I didn't see when I lived in Europe. You also tend to travel further by car since gas is cheaper here. I couldn't fathom driving my truck 8 hours each way towing in Europe because the fuel cost would eat me alive. Here it isn't so bad.

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LordofSpheres@reddit

Nowhere else really quite has the same level of accessible public land that's really fucking far away. If you live in the US and you want to go across the country to a national or state park and have more flexible accommodations, that means driving thousands of miles with a camper over mountain ranges like the Rockies. That means asturdy and confident tow vehicle is really nice to have. By contrast, if you live in France and want to take a trip to the alps, you're probably not going to be very far from a hotel and a nice paved road.

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TheMagic1415926535@reddit

Lightest weight? Best power:weight ratio? Lowest laptime?

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adoodas@reddit

Yea! Though my 4.0s 0-60 ev feels plenty quick getting me to the next intersection, I'd much rather teleport directly there. 4 seconds ain't gonna cut it

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newtonreddits@reddit

Especially for the demographic that purchases Corvettes.

None of lil ferreign cars with under 500hp

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SINdicate@reddit

Affordable is the future

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account312@reddit

I'm pretty sure it's the past, sadly.

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Muttonboat@reddit

Always has been.

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DrZedex@reddit

You're right.

But I think there's nuance here. Historically a light car may just have been a cheap POS made from popsicle sticks and bubblegum. And heavy cars, where they existed, were almost always nicer. Today it's very different. Light cars are not an accident anymore but a deliberate and difficult choice by the manufacturer.

To add to this, power is everywhere and cheap now. What used to be expensive, serious big power is now a mundane commuter box. And the roads haven't gotten bigger, so 300hp is still plenty enough to be fun with.

I think the nuance is that fun will be the new selling point, and lightness is how you get there now that everything is already powerful and nobody knows how to drive a manual anymore.

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dustygator@reddit

I think the nuance is that fun will be the new selling point, and lightness is how you get there now that everything is already powerful and nobody knows how to drive a manual anymore.

Part of the issue with this is that while there is some overlap, there are more people who love cars than who love driving.

They love the looks, the sounds, the bragging rights, the badge. But you'll never see them at a track day. They won't go out of their way to go find a twisty road. There's a reason there are stereotypes about boomer Corvette/Ferrari owners going 5 under in the right lane on the interstate.

Even people who own Miatas (the epitome fun over performance sports car) often aspire and upgrade to something heavier and less fun. (God bless those that go to an Elise or Caterham next though).

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fatitalianstallion@reddit

Big power isn’t everywhere. The numbers shifted. 2,000 and 3,000+ is not uncommon in streetable big power cars. Nth moto/ Calvo gen 5 vipers are good examples. Nelson racing products also show just how much power can be had, but those numbers aren’t in anything common, even hyper cars. We’re seeing new billet blocks getting released for streetable 4,000hp builds.

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DrZedex@reddit

You proved my point prefectly. Kids these days think it's not big unless it's crazy internet-spec 4-figure big. That kind of power used to be pure fantasy and it's now merely an immodest checkbook signature away. And it's not reserved crazy lake speedsters, but mostly boomer-spec cars & coffee friendly stuff. Who wants to spend their life at 40% throttle? Those things aren't even going to hit full boost until you're well into the suicidal section of the speedo. That shit is only fun briefly. Just ask the Plaid owners how often they actually do a full launch.

Big power does one of three things: you get attenuated to it and get bored/want more, it kills you, or it becomes unc enough to be unenjoyable. But a crisp throttle, light lively chassis, and deliberately involving experience? Never gets old.

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Grambo-47@reddit

Hell, even 200hp can still be plenty of fun. My old A4 had a stick, I daily drove that thing for 12 years and loved every second of driving it. I could legitimately rev it out to redline without hitting “get in trouble” speeds (and did so often lmao)

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Potatoe42069@reddit

2008 nissan gtr is the exception to this rule. When it came out rhere was a lot of press explaining how they used steal instead of aluminum on some parts and the weight gave it static downforce

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Racer20@reddit

I mean, there are scenarios where adding mass can help stability, balance, NVH, or rigidity. Adding specific mass in the right place can be a huge net benefit to a car if done strategically. I can’t speak for that specific example, but if making a part lighter shifts the mass distribution the wrong way, it can be a net benefit to keep the heavier part.

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Bonerchill@reddit

If making a part lighter shifts mass distribution, then you make another part lighter to adapt.

Lightness begets lightness.

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Racer20@reddit

Sometimes that’s not possible or practical.

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Bonerchill@reddit

Then start over.

I get it, I do. But I also don’t want to.

The cars and components have to be designed for their highest spec, which impacts the lightness of their lowest spec.

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UncleBensRacistRice@reddit

Every time I hear that I just think its marketing buzzwords to hide obvious cost cutting.

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Potatoe42069@reddit

But it still performed well. It was cheaper and faster than most supercars.

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UncleBensRacistRice@reddit

For sure, it was fast for its weight and price, but using steel over aluminum was part of the reason it was cheaper than the competition, but ofc they didn't want to say it so it was "a performance oriented decision"

Nissan even exposed their own little marketing lie with other, faster gtr trims. Spec V and Nismo variants were lighter than the base model

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Hollow-Ling@reddit

I would say making things lighter is gonna be important for new "attainable" sports/sporty cars, especially while hybridization will likely be more adopted than it already is. Like the GR86/BRZ are lightish weight sports cars that the average person could afford, the Civic Si is a sporty car that still weighs under 3000lbs and can fit 5 people, so once cars like these need to be hybridized to meet regulations it'll be important to keep weight down to keep the handling characteristics. All of that is kinda why Honda is really touting their updated hybrid system that will debut in the Prelude as being about 10% lighter than the current system, which should shave 200lbs. The current Civic Hybrid is 3200lbs and the Prelude is almost GR86/BRZ sized, so we COULD be looking at a bear 2800-2900lbs car so it should handle well and feel responsive. So there is currently a path to make cars light(ish) for the average person even in this current age of car manufacturing.

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Ran4@reddit

Like the GR86/BRZ are lightish weight sports cars that the average person could afford

The GR86 was like 45k euro when on sale, that's a lot.

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Hollow-Ling@reddit

I guess for context, I was thinking along the NA market. Unfortunately, yeah hard to make a car affordable everywhere, apparently 😅

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Neurotypist@reddit

It’s why I switched from M sedans to Integra Type S.

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Yangervis@reddit

Lightweight has always been the direction for sports cars

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Ran4@reddit

Not really. Make it smaller. Done.

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Yangervis@reddit

Sports cars are already pretty small. How much smaller can you make a Miata or a BRZ and still have a functional car?

An Elise is a little smaller but they aren't really practical.

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MentalMiilk@reddit

Safety and comfort. People aren't willing to give up sound deadening, electric seats, or infotainment for a regular sporty car.

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Bonerchill@reddit

God, I hate compromising good cars for daily driver bullshit.

Stop making a backroad bomber comfortable on the highway. Suck it up and embrace scarcity.

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MentalMiilk@reddit

Agreed, to an extent. I'm definitely not a fan of companies watering down sports/performance cars to appease buyers who want luxury cars—but I also don't think cars should be unnecessarily harsh without reason. That said, I do flatly disagree with the idea of speccing a sports car so that it's better in traffic or on the commute. You either want a sports car or a commuter—trying to do both will just make the car good at neither.

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Bonerchill@reddit

Impact harshness is absurd nowadays, and it doesn’t have to be.

A Lotus Elan has very low impact harshness. Its bushings aren’t some combination of rubber and spherical bearings, they’re just rubber. The tires have tall sidewalls. Why? Because the car barely weighs anything. You don’t need expensive and harsh bushings to limit deflection when there’s little weight to cause it. You don’t need stiff sidewalls to counteract cornering forces if the car’s weight is low enough and it doesn’t gain camber in compression.

Lightness isn’t just performance potential, it’s flow. A light, well-damped and properly-sprung car doesn’t force the road to do its bidding, it flows like warm honey.

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MentalMiilk@reddit

It sounds like you're trying to sell me on light weight sports cars—I'm all in already. I'd much rather see sub-3000lb sub-300hp cars being sold than 5000lb 800hp monsters (looking at you, M5)

It seems like modern sports cars have become focused on the aethetics of performance and the numbers on a spreadsheet—because that's what sells in the absence of experience. If more people could experience lightweight sports cars I think they'd be more popular.

I know, that last sentence seems ridiculous to say in a subreddit full of people praising the Miata and S2k. I'm not talking about them. I mean the average CUV/SUV owner who's only ever had big, heavy cars. I don't think they know what they're missing or have any means of rectifying that—and if they get a promotion at work, they're the first ones in line to purchase a "performance" SUV with 22" wheels and granite suspension.

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Atompunk78@reddit

I’d forgo all but sound deadening and radio/aircon personally (and maybe ultra basic cc would be nice), but I understand not many people are ok with that

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broke_saturn@reddit

And there’s not enough of us who are willing to forgo comfort and convenience to justify build such a car

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c0LdFir3@reddit

I’m not sure if it CAN be the new direction, at least in the US. Won’t safety standees be dramatically more difficult to hit if weight starts getting noticeably reduced?

Disclaimer: I’m not an engineer and could be totally wrong.

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YetToLoseADime@reddit

No; It’s much more so features companies feel are being demanded by market. The current miata is 2350 lbs. Mazda CTO claims the next one will be lighter by 130 lbs or so. Under current regulations a 2500 lbs very nice interior sports car can be done. For example the current miata would be about 150 lbs or so lighter from just using a fibre glass body instead. But it’s harder to service etc. If the sports car customer is willing to make the right choices and sacrifices, companies would make the right choices and make good sports cars.

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GetawayDriving@reddit

Under current regulations a 2500 lbs very nice sports car can be done.

Agreed. But it’s also so small that it’s a non-starter for anyone over 6’ tall.

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Ran4@reddit

I mean, just make sports cars that are 175 cm wide instead of 185+ (modern 911) or 170 (the MX-5).

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YetToLoseADime@reddit

For sure!! I’d say more so maybe around 6’2” or beyond. I’m just a hair under 6’2” and I fit in an ND miata kinda nicely but I’ve heard it also depends more on inseam so maybe that’s what kicks in mainly around 6 foot. However, in NA for ex over 6 foot is like 10% of population or so haha and I’d say a decent chunk of that 10 still could fit in such a car ok. But for sure anyone like 6’3” is gonna be out almost for sure. I’ve always thought to myself how insane it would be to be someone huge like say LeBron James, and never be able to fit in a lotus Elise 😂 he has a 918 though so he’s prob ok, but still there are so many of the best cars you miss out on at that size, even if you can afford them!

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GetawayDriving@reddit

Actually the Elise fits tall people quite well once you’re inside. Getting in is the problem.

I’m 6’ and owned an ND as well. I fit fine, though I had to slouch when wearing a helmet at the track.

The Emira is brilliant. I adore it. Best car I’ve ever owned.

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WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit

Mazda did it. Alpine did it.

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nevergonnastawp@reddit

"New"?!? Dude. This is the oldest direction.

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VitoXzX@reddit (OP)

M5 G90 has entered the chat

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Odd-Refrigerator-425@reddit

It's a 5 series. It was never going to be light.

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strongmanass@reddit

IMO the G90 M5 is misunderstood. I'd say it's entered a different segment from its F90 predecessor and that segment is becoming hybridized. It now occupies the M8 gran coupe's market position and competes with the Panamera Turbo e-hybrid, the AMG GT 63 S E Performance, and the upcoming RS6 PHEV sedan, like the M8 gran coupe competes with the non-hybridized versions of those cars.

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SnikySquirrel@reddit

I think it would be better received badges as an M7

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strongmanass@reddit

I don't think anyone would buy a car badged as an M7. First, a true M7 it would have to be on the 7 series chassis, and as big as the M5 is the 7 series is much bigger. But even if BMW just called the G90 M5 the M7, I just can't think of a person who would hear that and decide to buy or even try the car except out of morbid curiosity. Nobody is looking for a sporty 7 series, and that car would have an identity crisis. No air suspension, no double paned glass, no massaging seats, no automatic closing doors, transmission tuned for more aggressive shifts. That would be a weird 7 series.

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handymanshandle@reddit

If the S63 AMG and the Audi S8 are of any indication on how to make a large performance flagship sedan, I’m sure BMW would find a way to have some of that cake and eat it too if they were interested. That said, I can’t imagine they’re interested in fighting the S63 given that they could barely shift any of the prior gen M760Li models, which proves your point here.

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strongmanass@reddit

I think the S63 AMG is one of the dumbest cars on sale. Every review I've seen says it's loud, stiff, has a shift from the electric transmission jerky enough that it feels like it breaks the car, and has a fake generated sound to mimic its real V8 that sounds like an old video game looping its audio if you rev the engine too long. Even if you want the top S-class surely you're still expecting it to be an S-class. The only way I can make it make sense is to think of it as an extended wheelbase AMG GT 4 door. But it gives some insight into what nonsense BMW's M division might produce if you gave them a 7 series.

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samwisetg@reddit

Splitting hairs here but I wouldn’t call that a sports car. There is no priority for driver communication and engagement in its design. Call them what you want but things like the M5 shouldn’t be in the same category as things like a Lotus Elise, Miata, or 86/BRZ.

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WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit

Now go look up 911 weights vs a 997.

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PRSArchon@reddit

Yet the S/T is lighter than a 987

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NameCheeksOut@reddit

Not a sports car.

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nevergonnastawp@reddit

Thats a new car ffs what is even happening

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SnikySquirrel@reddit

Sports cars are inherently lighter than most commuter cars but manufacturers usually didn’t prioritize lightness. That’s why a lot of sports cars have been getting heavier and heavier.

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GetawayDriving@reddit

Well that and new safety regulations. And hybridization.

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T-Baaller@reddit

Blaming safety regs is a manufacturing skill issue as proven by mazda and their mx-5.

Hell, I have AEB and all the other modern stuff, while under 2900lbs

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nevergonnastawp@reddit

So youre saying in the olden days they were light but lately theyve been getting heavier?....

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jedigreg1984@reddit

"add lightness"

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Potential-Ant-6320@reddit

I only know of one car that got lighter and it is Mazdas lowest selling car.

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heychadwick@reddit

Look at the Japanese kei sports cars. The Honda Beat and the Cappuccino only have 660cc engines, but they are small and lightweight. Fast little bastards.

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DeLoreanAirlines@reddit

The CRX was like a paperweight

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TheLoveKraken@reddit

Compared to a modern car, but it’s fairly standard for the time.

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_galaga_@reddit

Eh. You’re talking about the era of 17’ long 2 door Cadillacs. The CRX was always tiny.

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TheLoveKraken@reddit

Perhaps compared to American cars, but they're an outlier; Japanese, or European stuff of the time like an E30 BMW or Peugeot 405 were around about a ton.

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_galaga_@reddit

Ya, I grew up in the 70s-80s in the transition from big ol’ boats to smaller cars post-gas crisis in the US. Big station wagons, full size vans, long domestic coupes were common but not for much longer.

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DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit

Ehhh, not really standard for the time. It was definitely on the light end of the spectrum. Early 90's CRX weighed about 2100 lbs. The Accord of the same era, which was one of the best selling cars in the country at the time, weighed about 2900 lbs.

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TheLoveKraken@reddit

The accord is also a class or two above it, of course it's heavier.

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8N-QTTRO@reddit

No. Realistically, only a small minority of enthusiasts truly want ultra-lightweight sports cars. Most buyers who spend money on new sports cars want a big horsepower number and aggressive styling. Look at how many units Lotus moves, if you want proof.

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avoidhugeships@reddit

It's never been just about power or numbers. It's about feel, sound and fun. That's why most enthusiast don't like EVs. You can make them fast but there is no torque curve, no sound, no vibration amd no manual.

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strangway@reddit

BMW had a car as light as a Miata, it was the i3. Weighing 2,635 lb, it used a carbon fiber tub to achieve its lightness.

I doubt BMW made any money off these, though. It was likely a loss leader product meant to develop BMW’s EV prowess more than make a short-term profit.

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Pixelplanet5@reddit

no absolutely not.

light weight materials are still expensive and the future is electric so cars will get a little heavier due to the battery weight.

the good thing however is that this weight is in the floor of the car so its exactly where you want the weight to be.

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TurboSalsa@reddit

Up until now, adding horsepower has been cheaper than losing weight, and may continue to be so with hybrid/EV drivetrains.

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65726973616769747461@reddit

I hope so, but I doubt it. What's with the recent trends of hybridization and electrification, it's very hard to make these cars lighter than they are.

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SirLoremIpsum@reddit

So, will the pursuit of lightweight be the new direction for automakers in the near future?

Depends.

Lotus, MX-5 - these vehicles have put lightweight at the forefront.

And still heavier, more comfortable, high HP cars reigned supreme.

In my opinion, for road use, adding more power probably won’t impress us as much anymore.

I would argue we reached that several decades ago..

I don't think you will see less HP in any model, ever. Maybe new models with smaller, lighter weight but I cannot see the next Mustang going "it's only got 250kw this time but it's 300kg lighter".

Heavy cars are here to stay. Features, safety stuff, comfort. Very popular.

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ddaw735@reddit

cars are peaking, we been making improvements for over 100 years. We are probably reaching train levels of yoy improvements.

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Averageinternetdoge@reddit

That's why we have ended up with CUVs since car makers can't invent anything new that actually makes sense.

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aaffpp@reddit

Lightweight is the only way to compete against the battery-operated beasts.

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Weak-Specific-6599@reddit

With today’s power levels and normal DOT rubber, it takes weight on the wheels to get the insane 0-60 times road cars can achieve. You cannot achieve them in low weight vehicles, as you’d have to run race tires which would not do street duty well at all.

Weight also serves as a way to make the at more comfortable. Fast 0-60 times and comfort sells, so weight is not going away. Weight weenie diehards still have the Miata.

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HopefulCarry9693@reddit

Lightweight with current safety features is highly unlikely.. thats why high horse power has been hot for the last years

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Comfortable-Total574@reddit

Not the answer this sub is looking for but electric sports cars are about to get s lot lighter. Solid state batteries will knock 500lbs off most models. Imagine a 3500lb model 3 performance or a 3800lb plaid. In that note, Tesla does really really well with weight. The other EV manufacturers don't seem to even try. They just throw more battery at the problem and jack the price up.

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MrEwThatsGross@reddit

Its the correct direction but not the new one. Companies will continue to follow regs and pour RnD into hp and stats because its easier to market. Look how much success BMW has had with the new G chassis. Hopefully there will always be something like the MX5/86 for the true engagement sickos but even those days may be numbered due to where the industry is headed.

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CaughtinRain@reddit

I feel like lighter weight will almost always be a positive thing

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TowElectric@reddit

With the torque crown always going to EVs now and probably forever at every single price point. gas cars that are intended to be “fun” have fewer tricks (other than just being really loud) and being light is one of them.

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humdizzle@reddit

No. Most people aren't turning traction off or testing the handling of their cars. They just went to drag race or do a highway pull.

Lightweight cars still exist. Brz, supra, 718, emira, gt3, miata.

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HarryWaters@reddit

I hope so. I want their to be a future for sports cars, not just super cars.

I had a 2018 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S, fantastic car, but it was a sports car, not a super car, and no matter what road I was on, I was always three seconds of right foot away from jail. And that was 1/3 of the power of a ZR1X.

I love the existence of supercars, megacars, and hypercars. But I'd honestly feel bad driving them to Dairy Queen. Like a lion in a zoo. There's no way you can drive them on a public road and even make them sweat. My mom's Miata though? Roundabouts with my foot on the floor. My dad's old muscle cars? They're shaking and roaring at 15 mph.

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speeding2nowhere@reddit

Hopefully. But I doubt it.

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The_Phroug@reddit

i love the idea of Lotus, simplify and add lightness, but i am also a power lover

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blue_bomber697@reddit

Lots of people like “the idea of Lotus”, but how many people are actually going out any buying those low-feature, lightweight cars. Not many. Even Lotus has somewhat abandoned that strategy with their latest cars.

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The_Phroug@reddit

thank god we got Factory Five. Ive built countless of their cars, and its the perfect blend of lightness, simplicity, and power, especially the cobras. i couldnt tell you how many of those i built for others, but ive found the perfect formula (for me) being a whipple supercharged gen 2/3 coyote, T56 magnum, 2016+ irs, double din radio + speakers, ac & heat, and 5 point harnesses.

body/chassis wise id make her a widebody, double competition windscreen, dual large roll bar, mold the doors to the body, and modify the round tube frame to allow a lower ride height to make it look nasty low while maintaining ground clearance

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redundantpsu@reddit

I'm just over here enjoying my 2800lb GR86 with a manual.

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Robots_Never_Die@reddit

1000hp sounds like a lot until you get used to it.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

The thing is that the folks who adore big engines and high power output don't necessarily care for vehicle dynamics, and vice versa.

Some people just want a comfortable, practical car to cruise in that has bulk power, but have no interest in racing the cars at all. They might lust after anything from an SS Commodore/Chevrolet SS, an Audi RS6, a Range Rover SVR all the way to something like a Ferrari GTC4 Lusso.

Some people want stupid amounts of power and are chasing dragstrip times and dyno numbers. They might want buy something like a Hellcat or a higher powered Mustang, or have an extensive 2JZ build in their Supra.

And then you have the trackday/autocross fiends who want things like Mazda MX-5s, Lotus Elises, GR Yarises and lust after 911 GT3s.

The problem the big power folks have is that EVs have stolen their party trick of launches and dragstrip times, irrespective of weight, so the wow factor of something like a Demon taking on all comers is diminished somewhat when a Model S can stay with it or at least close to it out of the factory.

The folks who want a comfortable touring car have never really cared about weight, and the folks who want a trackday toy have always cared about it. That's nothing new.

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SnikySquirrel@reddit

People who like hellcats and mustangs care just as much if not more about the sound and tire smoke than they do about straight line speed. A Miata or a Model S won’t do big smoky burnouts

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mr_lab_rat@reddit

Unfortunately I don’t see that happening.

People fall for marketing. Big numbers are good for marketing.

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samwisetg@reddit

Too many people drive cars through a spreadsheet.

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mr_lab_rat@reddit

Heh, that’s a perfect phrase.

I didn’t pay attention to numbers when I chose my car. And fortunately neither did the design team. They prioritized fun over everything else.

I drive a 2017 M2. The one with N55 engine. OMG, not a real M car without the S55!. It’s slower than AWD M240i or RS3 in straight line. It can’t be easily tuned to 600hp like those cars. It’s slower than a Cayman S around a track (probably). My car is manual. But the DCT is faster you fool!

And despite all that, it’s the best car for me. I value the nicer sound of the N55, the engagement of the manual shifter, the balance of stock power and 265 tire.

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MAUSECOP@reddit

I think we’ll start seeing a push for “pure” cars starting at the higher end very soon. For example I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw a Ferrari with a manual that didn’t focus on just being as fast as possible. I think this will cause other manufacturers to start competing starting with Lamborghini and Porsche. Power is pretty much as high as it can usable get and we already see extreme demand for rawer, analog sports cars.

I think this will mainly stay in the high-end though, the appeal certainly decreases the cheaper / less prestigious a car is and those will still aim for power / tech.

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YetToLoseADime@reddit

Hyundai is selling a 100k 2.5 to 60 suv lol…. Anyone buying an ICE car for performance (drag OR pretty soon, track) as of today…idk what you’re doing hahaha soccer mom ev can smoke you in real world lol even a 1500 hp lambo or r8 build gets smoked in street surface off a light by a 50k used plaid 😂

For drag queens it’s already over….. just slow drag dinosaur cars now imo lol for track guys…. It’s still a go but not for long…. And realistically pace wise alone 90% of drivers today are already faster in today’s boat ev cars lol in 10 years it’ll be same story as drag queen cars and run of the mill sports car ev will be besting a 992 gt3 rs on most tracks.

So all this to say, yes. ICE sports cars should all be totally focused on pure driving experience. Nothing to do with pace. Speed. Sure make them quick and fun enough. But I’d much rather be in a 200-300hp 2500 lbs or less car that’s got a sick manual than a 700 hp ICE bmw or whatever lol why do I want a 4K lbs ice bmw?? For a worse driving experience than a miata by far, yet getting gapped bad by a Hyundai soccer mom? I’ll pass lol

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OtterCreek_Andrew@reddit

It’s just hard with everything they’re required to have nowadays and regulations. Also with how much physically LARGER everything has gotten to accommodate requirements for side airbags and stuff. Look at pictures of old 911’s next to new 911’s or old BMW’s next to new BMW’s or hell anything. Trucks in the 90’s compared to trucks today, SUV’s in the 90’s compared to SUV’s today. Everything has just gotten so damn big.

Like my 1997 m3 is 3175 pounds, 66 inches wide, 53 inches tall, 175 inches OAL. While a new 2025 m3 is 3840 pounds, 74 inches wide, 57 inches tall and 189 inches OAL. That’s almost 30% larger and with that comes with 20% more weight. It’s going to be like that roughly with about any model car comparing 20 years apart.

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insurgent_dude@reddit

Less weight is just a benefit to everything other than comfort.

A swift sport is relatively quick (for its power), good at stopping (despite basic small brakes), and pretty good at handling (despite its simple suspension) because the thing weighs absolutely nothing for a modern car.

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Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit

Nope. With modern safety regulations and on going hybridization and electrification, cars are only going to get heavier from here on out. You missed the good times, you’re in the okay times now, don’t miss it too.

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RodRAEG@reddit

I'll believe it when it actually happens. The only people that seem to care about weight is Mazda with the MX-5, and Toyobaru with the twins. Even looking at hyper cars, the only people going lightweight seems to be GMA with the T.50 and T.33, and those are very niche.

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strongmanass@reddit

Take any sports car continuously on sale for the past 25 years, or one of the same lineage, e.g. Aventador to Revuelto. None have gotten lighter.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

The MX-5 is probably the exception that proves the rule here. Apart from the third generation car, it's notable for not having grown large and fat.

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JALbert@reddit

This is not what "exception that proves the rule" means.

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TooMuchPJ@reddit

Colin Chapman has entered the chat.

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tronaldrumptochina@reddit

I believe you are correct that there will be a general push for lightness, but for different reasons. Electric sports cars are naturally heavier, at the moment, than their gas-powered alternatives. The push would be to lighten the electric sports car (and still give it a reasonable range for grand tour-ey reasons).

Innovations are there (e.g. dark matter motor from Koenigsegg) but it really hasn’t trickled down to someone’s electric miata yet (that I know of).

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Spike_Spiegel@reddit

New???

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yepitsme73@reddit

Adding lightness is difficult given current regulations. That’s why small resto mod manufacturers are so attractive, they don’t have to follow those regulations and can make much more stripped down light cars.

I did hear, however, that the next generation Miata will be lighter and more powerful. So somehow Mazda continues to set the bar.

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bikedork5000@reddit

It could become more prominent as electric sports cars come into their prime, because lighter = much more range. And right now range is a big limiting factor still.

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Aggressive-Cow5399@reddit

People want to be able to drive a car that looks like a lambo, drives like around the track like a Porsche gt3, but drives on the street like a Porsche cayenne.

Lightweight cars are fun to drive, but they’re also very dangerous and not comfortable to daily drive.

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Monkeywithalazer@reddit

Range and charge time. Thats it. If I can get a new truck with substantially more range and lower charge time than my lightning I will.

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xdr01@reddit

/British raises eyebrow

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Double_Minimum@reddit

Yea, but safety regulations are going to never make “lightweight” the same as it was before.

You can get a better performing vehicle by using an older vehicle and putting new parts on it, and still having money to buy a new daily driver compared to the cost of a modern sports car.

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arthorism@reddit

There's tradeoffs to everything. As time has went on cars have to follow more stringent safety regulations, as well as manufacturers prioritizing comfort / added features, which ultimately will increase the weight. They probably realized at some point that most consumers will notice these things or weigh them in their purchasing decision more than the weight. Keeping these things while reducing weight is ultimately going to be expensive, so I don't think it will meaningfully head in that direction.

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