Why isn't there a better name for the language spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Montenagro, and Bosnia

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

There is this declaration, though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Common_Language?wprov=sfla1

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kalac77@reddit

That sounds like a dead idea, never heard of this declaration.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

It's not dead, the declaration was already issued and signed in 2017 by many intellectuals.

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kalac77@reddit

Because of all the things you said, including the name itself. Croatians try to differentiate the language from others the most, with lot of new worlds, especially for all the technical stuff for which most use existing (and mostly original) english terms.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Croatian standard not but Kajkavica is continuation to standard Slovenian.

How is also Ikavian speaker understandable in Bosnia?

Phonetics also is very different in Croatia and Bosnia also very different and noticeable in Serbia.

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zlate42@reddit

Differences are noticeable - that's it! I never had any difficulties in those four countries to be understood or to understand. I just don't get it, why Croatians are so insecure that they need to push this narrative that Croatian is such a different language. You can be Croatian and still speak the same language as a Serb - that's not a contradiction (look at US and England or Austria, Switzerland and Germany)!

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kalac77@reddit

Believe me, Austrians, Swiss People, and Germans do not speak the same language. Officially it is German, Bit in the real world those three nations are having problems understanding each other sometimes, until they switch to the Hochdeutsch (high German).

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they really aren't that different, many languages have far more differing dialects, and I'm guessing you're also a native speaker so you hear differences that seem much larger than they actually are. for example I'm from zadar and when I hear people from split or šibenik speak I can tell the difference for sure, but most people not from dalmatia can't. why? because we speak very similarly for the most part

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Generally the speaking of Croats and Serbians is different phonetics you can instantly hear that.

For me in Bosnia they sound like the overstretch the sentences and also it's noticeable difference.

Montenegro sounds like Serbian for me

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telescope11@reddit

yeah, you don't have the best ear for it then, that's just plain incorrect

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

How they sound according to you as a Croat?

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MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit

Ikavian dialect was common in Bosnia until modern age, there's still older people in central parts of the country who speak it, more or less.

Phonetics differentiation between Croatian and others are in the range of American English and other versions.

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gazda_mane@reddit

My cousins great grandmother spoke in ikavian even though she’s Bosniak from travnik

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kalac77@reddit

Serbo-croatian is not an official name. It was 35 years ago. Now, you call the Language usually by the name of the country you're in. But if you ask me, it is better that you do not ask any questions about culture, food, Language, ethnic or religious questions about that region, because you'll stir up some pretty bad memories and feelings. And of course there will be a lot of hate speech.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Because they are not the same.

Croatia has continuum with own dialects with standard Slovenian like Kajkavica. Chakavica also and ikavian speakers have little with standard Bosnian or Serbian.

ShoddySlide5672@reddit

What about Denmark, Norway and Sweden? What about Basque language within Spain? Hindi and Urdu? Czech and Slovakia? Moldova and Romania? Should I go on? Or are you just that smoothbrained?

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No it wasnt a communist issue but a Yugoslavian effort to create a middle language betweem all the dialects as evem within nations there were dialecta that had a hard time understanding eqch other.

It started even before the Kingdom was formed.

Serbs have a continul with Bulgatia and Macedonia but we're still closer to each other but a South Slavic language that covers evwn them would be possible.

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HumanMan00@reddit

Well, first Naški or Našinski is what Gorani language is called although this term is also used by South Serbians quite a bit and possibly by Macedonians.

Naški or Našinski would translate to "Our Language".

This would mean that we'd have to admit that we have something in common which would be a wildly unpopular move among the nationalista of the countries.

There would also need to be cultural collaboration on a state level between the nations which will happen when Villows start growing grapes.

Komijas@reddit

Seems like a common occurrence, there is a dialect of the Finnish language named Meänkieli and it has the same meaning. It's considered a separate language (Tornedalian) for political reasons.

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HumanMan00@reddit

What ethnicities speak it?

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Komijas@reddit

Tornedalians.

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Increase-Tiny@reddit

this seems the right thread to start a fire. with south Serbia you mean the actually south of serbia or south west serbia (kosovo)?

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HumanMan00@reddit

The Kosovo dialect of Serbs is a ccontinum of South Serbian but has its own thing. Its, called Prizrensko-Timočki.

It's all Torlak dialect which is spoken by Bulgarian Torlaks, Croat Torlaks of Romania and Gorani.

Metohija is afaik more close to West Montenegro and Novi Pazar but i could be wrong.

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Increase-Tiny@reddit

i just wanted to make an offensive joke (have driends from kosovo and serbia who always go balls when i say smth like that).

disnt expect to learn something interessting. Thank you!

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That rube is producing top-notch r / confidentlyincorrect content 🤣

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_EMDID_@reddit

Know-nothing doubles down on know-nothingness ^

🤡

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_EMDID_@reddit

Wrong. Lmao.

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HumanMan00@reddit

Bro doesnt even know what whitewashing means.

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_EMDID_@reddit

Ironic ^

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Jazzlike-Letter-4879@reddit

This is such a ridiculous point. You can’t tell apart people from any 2-3 neighboring countries in the world until you hear them talk.

How do you tell Canadians and Americans (from the US) apart? How do you tell Germans and Austrians apart? Venezuelans and Colombians? What about Indians and Pakistani people?

You can’t even tell an Italian and a Serb apart until you hear them speak. 😅

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Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit

How do you tell Canadians and Americans (from the US) apart?

They are the same

How do you tell Germans and Austrians apart?

They are the same

Venezuelans and Colombians?

They are the same

What about Indians and Pakistanis?

Well you can, for example northeastern indians have nothing to do with punjabis, balochs and such

You can’t even tell an Italian and a Serb apart until you hear them speak

Everybody can

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Jazzlike-Letter-4879@reddit

Wow, that’s very ignorant of you. Check the definition of “ethnicity”. It’s not the same as origin or descent.

Also, I was often in multicultural surroundings and was mistaken for an Italian regularly. Italians are shorter in general, but it’s not so noticeable for women as it is for men.

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Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit

Wow, that’s very ignorant of you. Check the definition of “ethnicity”. It’s not the same as origin or descent.

Bro don’t fool yourself. You guys are the same ethnicity

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Jazzlike-Letter-4879@reddit

You can’t tell someone what ethnicity they are. What is it with your entitlement? We can agree that the language is the same, with different variants in different ex-Yu countries. But a foreigner doesn’t get to decide if people from different countries are the same ethnicity. Go touch grass.

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Emotinonal_jiggolo@reddit

Kind if wierd how all your surnames end with -IC, have almost the same music , look the same, have the same language, have the same customs. But sure bro you are different lol

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Jazzlike-Letter-4879@reddit

Not all out surnames end in -ić. Mine doesn’t. But yes, we can say it’s predominant.

We don’t share religion and customs. Music – it depends on the time period we’re talking about. Of course, we share the music from the Yugoslav period, but vastly different cultural influences were always present in Croatia and Serbia, for example. Croatia was always leaning towards the West, and Serbia the East. It’s visible in our alphabets, religion, customs and everything that defines a nation.

No one says we’re not mixed and a lot more similar that any of us is to, let’a say, Irish people. But ethnicity is not something you, as a foreigner, get to decide for us. More than anything, it’s a sense of belonging to a group that shares specific cultural, historical, and religious values.

We don’t care you see as as the same. Every entitled guy from a big country does. But you’re not right and instead of using the beauty of internet to overcome geographical barriers and actually ask someone from a country you’re talking about how they feel, you keep sounding like an ignorant brat.

Well Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs are culturally different from each other, similar to Irish and English. So seperate countries/ethnicities make perfect sense for these 3.

Montenegrins and Serbs on the other hand are culturally the same, however legally still insist on being seperate so it is what it is.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

No. Irish are Celtic and English are Germanic.

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DartVejder@reddit

I was referring to cultural differences of countries as they are in the present day, not necessarily historic or genetic differences.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Fair enough

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

That is correct.

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krindjcat@reddit

I do not believe that "Montenegrin" or "Bosnian" languages exist

Of course you wouldn't

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Babosmarach666@reddit

It always had one name - Serbo-Croatian because Serbs and Croats were the ones who codified it. Also, Bosniaks and Montenegrins didn't have their national identity come to life. Before 1990s they were a part of Serbian or Croatian national identity. Now they are separate nations so part of that nation building project is their separate language, although it's the same as Serbo-Croatian. There's more difference in Serbian or Croatian dialects than between Serbo-Croatian and Bosnian or Montrnegrin

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ShoddySlide5672@reddit

And what was it called before Yugoslavia and codification?

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Babosmarach666@reddit

I don't know. In the 19th century there was a lot of Serbian and Croat intellectuals who cooperated in efforts to codify the language they all spoke. So it became Serbo-Croatian. Before Yugoslavia

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NoFlamingosHere@reddit

There is. It's called serbocroatian and everyone is more or less using it in same way as before the stupid wars. Official language in Jugoslavija, and all republics had some, mostly dialectal differences, but same language anyway.

It's not that we suddenly don't understand each other, no one has changed languages just because we don't live in same country anymore 🤷🏻‍♂️

Ja čitam ... Legende: https://youtu.be/DztrX5dXmxU

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Sweet_Walrus_8188@reddit

… ja bih jedan caj. CAJ. ne znam, caj…. jaje mozda? 😂

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lalaabrat@reddit

Zdravo 🧍🏻‍♂️

tipičan hercegovački pozdrav

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Incvbvs666@reddit

Ja Vas ništa ne razumem!

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InvestigatorLoud7763@reddit

In Serbian it's "da li" not "jesi li"

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Burekenjoyer69@reddit

I’m sorry, I don’t understand that dialect, can you translate it into Herzegovinian?

Imaginary-Librarian7@reddit

Southern Slavic, or južnoslavenski would be better name as it is not mentioning any specific nation and no one can fell insulted

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pdonchev@reddit

That includes Bulgarian and Macedonian, which are Southeast Slavic and quite different. The point is that even "Southwest Slavic" is too wide, as it includes Slovene, which is clearly a separate and different language outside the BCMS isogloss.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Croatia standard no but but Croatian Kajkavian has dialect continuum with standard Slovene.

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Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit

I had a dream about that recently.

It would be interesting if traditionally Kajkavian regions of Croatia would have standard Kajkavian as the official language alongside standard Croatian.In this region children would learn both languages at school. Same thing would happen for Chakavian regions.

oduzmi@reddit

I said that the language already has "the best" name: Croatian. That's my answer.

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Desperate-Care2192@reddit

Thats not really what you said, but whatever. And what is saying now is literally not an answer, because Croatian is not a name for the common language.

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oduzmi@reddit

Croatian is not a name for the common language.

It can be. I personally vote for that option! Hehe.

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Desperate-Care2192@reddit

It should be called Serbian in Croatia and Croatian in Serbia, so that both nation got humbled a lil bit.

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Cryptizard@reddit

Do Australians speak Australian?

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

'I live in Kosovo, I speak Kosovian'

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I agree

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mihjok@reddit

There was a better name used for centuries until 19th century - illyrian

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DenisWestVS@reddit

I think it's better (according to your question) to use a term "Yugoslavian"

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ShoddySlide5672@reddit

So calling a language by a federation of states that no longer exists and that ended with bloody war... Makes sense.

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Imaginary_String_814@reddit

It should be called Serbo-Croatian as it used to be.

Historically this makes only sense but Balkan pettiness is big enough for 4 separate languages.

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ShoddySlide5672@reddit

That is not how it was originally called. That was the name used during Yugoslavia. Both countries existed long before that. And we're influenced by different cultures. Especially east-west division that also had a lot of influence on the languages. Hell even on Croatia I can't understand half of what Istrians are saying. And you are telling me that it's all the same without even knowing the language. Rich.

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blitzfreak_69@reddit

You’re not making the case you think you are. All 4 standards are different. All 4 however, are officially based on the same eastern herzegovinian dialect, which, ironically enough, is not spoken in any of the four capital cities. So in that regard, all four are equally “different” or equally “the same”.

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kajkavian@reddit

Tell me certain originally Montenegrin standard phrases that do not exist in either Croatian or Serbian standard and I may be convinced.

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blitzfreak_69@reddit

Here’s a couple:

predśednik, śekira, lijes, lama, putijer, jeka, miśćelo, brondzin, urivak, gravalje, pinjata, konata, banak, deka, škanj, kamarin, kotula, stolovača, ožeg, mašice, sač, škatula, šalpa, špag, ogar, cijeđ, jeina, štica, sapatnik, sopernik, lubarda, kudelja, ljesa, baun, iščupak, pojata, pržina, śedok, razvale, razura, riječanje, luča, koštanj, ruga, mjed, jarošt, čislo, nožice, kufijerta, ckvrna, gramata, hrtenica, dne, očalin, drača, teća, tica, izba, krupa, teno, tjeskota, trupina, ljutac, ljučevina, vlaka, stima, rapa, ponjava, podina, čajina, čoek, parapet, śenokos, pjev, sakup, varevina, guvno, izvanjac, božjak, cijuk, cjepač, javje, zbiće, fiska, maragun, acal, argat, jav, badanj, banak, krtola, kučak, bječva, bogatun, navlaštito, uvor, sijerak, gvardija, grun, zviježđe, šiljeg, sić, dekica, prenje, kuneta, šterika, śet(a), frkun, saket, frnjoka, puce, štramac, utek, tavalja, zađevica, zapt, zvijerac, raka, kotarica, načpolj, zubja, petrusin, ožica, kašeta, plot, takulin, šnala, solijerna, svojta, fis, frčka, koc, aljine, čapra, kiljan, brav, pavrijez, čengele, čkuklja, lastra, raštan, lupež, banda, sičija, fuzda, crevlje, pośeta, čaktar, vjeđa, džanja, strag, pokajanje, baština, plotina, škrinja, pipun, direk, oriz, bizin, špiglo, stud, džupa, teslica, košćela, mamuta, makanja, osjena, kokot, kot, krok, kulje, laznina, nugao, lužina, luka, masak, mješina, pjesna, odsuda, oraj, polom, potoč, pot, okit, otpis, pupulj, Arbanas, jaspra, bogatun, capa, frmentin, korota, mudrina, pośekotina

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kajkavian@reddit

Literally nothing that has not been taken either from Croatian standard or Serbian standard.

Funnily enough a lot of us in Montenegro younger than about 35 use “Naš” when referring to the BCMS. It’s a neutral short word, that gets the meaning across and allows the speaker to not distract or make the listeners draw conclusions on the political stances of the speaker.

Montenegro has had a big divide over the national and linguistic identity, with the bigger part of the populace considering their ethnic identity to be Montenegrin but still call the language Serbian.

Of course there are lots of purely pro-Serb and pro-Montenegrin groups and all of them intertwined and divided even between siblings. Plus add the Bosniak and the Croatian minorities and you get a mini Bosnia tho less extreme.

Our government renamed the classes in schools to Bosnian Croatian Serbian Montenegrin at one point which is what most regional media houses and international organisations use as a neutral term.

The consequence of this is that a lot of young people naturally started using “Naš” as the safest way to go around the topic.

I must add that saying either Serbian or Montenegrin will not get you in trouble 99% of the times but people who are extremely pro Montenegrin or pro Serb will be noticing it.

I myself am a Cameleon. Privately I call it Serbian but If I sense that a group I’m with is more leaning towards one side I stick to their name. It me you energy.

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ignatiusjreillyXM@reddit

I call it the B2HC+ community language to cover all the main nations and regions

B for Bosnia 2HC for Hrvatska (Croatia), Herzegovina, Crne Gore (Montenegro) and Srbija (Serbia) + For anyone else who.is feeling left out

Can be placed in different orders to avoid offense if necessary

If anything it was big mistake to call the language Serbo-Croatian back in the Yugoslavia times. If Macedonia & Slovenia were not part of Yugoslavia best option would have been to call it "Yugoslavian", not sure how would that end up after 90s bullshit we had in these regions though.

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mw2lmaa@reddit

Serbian originally used only Cyrillic (albeit nowadays majority uses Latin script) while Croatian only Latin script.

History and politics...

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riquelm@reddit

It was called Illyrian at the beginning, but the stupid nationalists ruined it (Serbs and Croats)

There can only be one true literary language in Illyria... It is not found in a single place, or a single country, but in the whole of Illyria... Our grammar and our dictionary is the whole of Illyria. In that huge garden there are beautiful flowers everywhere: let us gather everything of the best in one wreath, which will never wither.

— Ljudevit Gaj, Proclamation, 1835

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purple-pinecone@reddit

Albanian detected

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riquelm@reddit

Ja sam Crnogorac kompa

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Dobrocudni_Dabar@reddit

Slavic language called illlyrian? HAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHHA

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riquelm@reddit

"Our intention is not to abolish individual names, but unify them under a general name, because each of the individual names carries its own individual history, which gathered together comprise a more general history of the Illyrian nation."

Ljudevit Gaj, 1839.

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Prize-Wolverine-4982@reddit

It derived from old Slav lang, then we got Serbo-Croatian language to accomodate both countries (Bosnia and Montenegro didnt exist). Then when all the countries split they got inferiority complex so they named that language the name of their country. Croats espescially tried their best to make it as different as possible. In reailty they are all the same shit.

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ThaiFoodThaiFood@reddit

I think they call it "Serbian" and have done with it.

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Incvbvs666@reddit

Well by that logic 'Indo-European' is a bad term for the group of languages because there are plenty of areas outside of both India and Europe that speak it, and I'm not talking about just the colonized areas, but native areas such as Farsi and Armenian, not to mention, for example, extinct languages such as Hittite.

IMO, Serbo-Croat is the best term because not only it encompases the two standards with the largest number of speakers, but also the two most 'extreme' versions of the language on either side, with both the Bosniak standard (which they insist on calling 'Bosnian') and the Montenegrin standard being somewhere 'in-between'. So 'Serbo-Croat' works well as a shorthand for Serbian, Croat and everything in between.

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Posavec235@reddit

In the 19th century it was called Illyrian by some people, because Illyrians were considered forefathers of South Slavs, but all evidence point to Albanians being their descendants.

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eferalgan@reddit

gif

because Bosnian and Montenegrin aren’t languages

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Stverghame@reddit

The language that must not be named

You’re mixing up too many things here. Firstly, there are many languages that have multiple standard forms, this is not the only one. These languages are referred to as “Pluricentric” languages. You can read about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language

lalaabrat@reddit

Good question but theres no hope for them to unify under a single language..