How to get a real Fistful of Datas
Posted by Ummagumma@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 33 comments
If Data has used the transporter, don't they have a complete molecular map of him? So they could just pick up the appropriate amount of matter from a pad and then beam in new Data's, right? No need for Maddox to pull him apart to see how he works in order to build new ones.
Zopheus_@reddit
In my mind it’s some sort of weird quantum effect. The buffer that stores the pattern has to use qbits and entanglements, that when read back to recreate the person or thing, are destroyed in the process. Reading the data (information, not the android) destroys the data. 🤷♂️
Ummagumma@reddit (OP)
Could be, could be.
RadVarken@reddit
The buffer is a one time read/write device. There's far too much information to store in a way which can be processed, unless writers decide to entirely ignore the very thing that makes transporters special for an episode and forever break canon, so it's impossible to clone people.
unknown_anaconda@reddit
I heard Tasha got a fistful of Data once.
Sufficient_Button_60@reddit
I was just going to say replicators seem to be able to clone most technology. Theoretically you could replicate Data. The thing is for all intents and purposes it seems like Data has a soul and that you cannot replicate!
Prestigious_Equal412@reddit
What is the soul? Is it his lived experiences, his consciousness, his sense of self? And combination of the above? Why couldn’t that be replicated if it’s safely surviving transport. As another commented, check out Thomas Riker. I don’t imagine it would be fair to say he didn’t have a soul
Sufficient_Button_60@reddit
I think that in the consistency of Star Trek writing they have per se cloned souls on a number of occasions. You mentioned Thomas Riker but really there are quite a few like when the whole crew and ship of voyager got duplicated. But in most of these cases they were due to accidents or unlikely circumstances. Generally speaking they weren't willfully duplicated. So I think a better statement wouldn't be so much that he couldn't be duplicated but maybe he shouldn't be duplicated. He is a unique individual and most people value their uniqueness. I remember an earlier episode of TNG where the whole civilization was based on clones and they tried to steal DNA. And Riker objected.
Prestigious_Equal412@reddit
Oh for sure I agree with you on the “don’t get so preoccupied with whether you should that you never stop to ask if you should” concern. I brought up Thomas Riker as a one of many examples, largely because he’s probably the duplicated character I remember seeing have the most appearances/development. He went on to be a very different person with very different values and strategic preferences. They have lots of similarities ofc, but by the time of his rescue he’s been changed by his perceived abandonment - and by the years spent learning strategies, habits, and problem solving skills to keep things together - that they definitely seem more to me like twin brothers than duplicates of each other to me. The dynamic is a lot like siblings went out and had different experiences and then clash over their difference when they meet back up. Realistically it’s the classic prodigal son concept; it’s just that the son that stayed and put in the hard work to get shafted come the reunion in the parable stayed with his family, and in the Thomas/Will story the prodigal son who went off on adventures took his family with him lol.
If I recall correctly the Asgard -I mean, colonists - who needed fresh DNA were not told their request was inherently immoral or against ethical guidelines, but rather that (paraphrasing here) “This is 100% not cool to have done without consent. That’s assault and violates our rights to bodily autonomy. What? What if you asked for consent? Yeaaaaah… I mean, I’m not gonna say you can’t do it if people say yes, but on this ship of 1,000+ people I’m confident speaking for all of them saying no one will be comfortable with this. But it’s totally about personal choice!”
Honestly that always felt like a major plot hole to me; a ship the size of the enterprise, in that progressive utopian society, if they’d just put out an open call on the ship’s bulletin board or w/e there would have been at least a few people who would probably have been down (either because they just don’t care or they like the idea of preserving a legacy that way, or whatever else).
Aside from that particular wrinkle though, I always took it as an allegory for bodily autonomy in regards to reproductive rights. They were (mostly) always great at coming at those things subtly by creating a scenario that’s different enough from the issue they’re commenting on that it doesn’t make people defensive, but parallel enough to sort of shift people’s subconscious mentality to be able to see the issue a little differently. I mean, they were essentially SA’ed with a plot device that kept the sexual trauma complications out of the episode, then had a conversation about wether or not it was justified to terminate the life of these soon to be sentient living creatures to retain bodily autonomy rights. Sounds like a pretty 1 to 1 allegory to me.
Anyway, that was a lot of words to say that I never really thought about the soul aspect of the issue any of the numerous times I’ve watched the episode. That’s a cool perspective, and I appreciate you sharing it
l008com@reddit
transporters/replicators break reality and don't really make sense. So the answer is that that wouldn't work unless the plot needed it to work, then it would work.
ThorsHammer245@reddit
The transporters are functional immortality. Because of how they have been shown to work, keeping a literal blueprint of every person who enters it, down to the molecular level, and even using transporter logs as verification for genetic match on case of death. If someone dies, all you have to do is rearrange some other molecules into the proper orientation in the transporter, and they never died. They’ll have no memory of how they died, but it’ll be like a back up from the last save, being the last time they used the transporter. This also fixes the tuvix issue 🙃
l008com@reddit
Which leads to . . . given how transporters and how replicators work, theres on reason someone couldn't make a instant copy machine that could make as many copies of you as you need. Which would totally break the star trek universe.
RedSunCinema@reddit
This is an excellent response. The rules of the overall Star Trek's universe are flexible and change depending on the story being told and change at will.
WrongAgain-Bitch@reddit
In theory, it would be an exact duplicate of Data, with all his history and experiences.
Maddox also would not be any closer to understanding how Data actually works. He wouldn't be able to control or reprogram his army of Datas. At best, he'd just have an endless supply of androids to dissect, which is even more ghoulish than his original plan
CaptainMatticus@reddit
I think both Datas would agree that the original hesitation he had, which is that Maddox would be incapable of preserving Data's experiences completely, would no longer be an issue. And since Data demonstrated that he was able to transfer Lal's memories to himself, there'd be no reason why he couldn't do the same with his copy. Nothing would effectively be lost anymore.
KJPicard24@reddit
I think Picard would press upon him the importance of individual liberty. Although they are identical, each Data is its own person with its own agency and rights that will diverge given enough time and experience. Picard would see them as a race of people, all individuals, rather than as a collective of androids that should be presumed to all think the same.
CaptainMatticus@reddit
But since both Data's would be identical, aside from their divergent experiences after the moment of cloning, it'd be likely that they'd both reach the same conclusion. And if they're in agreement, then who is Picard to tell them that they can't? Any cloned Data that disagreed would be perfectly free to not participate, of course, but some would be fine with it. Maybe even most would be fine with it.
KJPicard24@reddit
Perhaps, but if the OG Data didn't want to be dissected, it's difficult to imagine a clone would just because everyone says he's just a clone. If clones truly are every bit the same as the original, imagine waking up to be told you're a clone. You feel like you're the original, you remember everything that came before, you even remember laying down on the bed to be cloned. In every meaningful sense to you, as far you're concerned, you are the original. Your stream of consciousness is no more interrupted than the other guys who looks like you. You'd question if this is fundamentally wrong, they are they absolutely sure you're the clone? Does that even matter now? You are you. Would you still consent to being experimented on and probably dying? You don't know any other life than this one, I honestly believe you'd consider it as precious and worth living for as the OG would.
I do appreciate that from a purely objective, dispassionate and logical point of view it's just experimenting with nothing more than a backup, but as Data is sentient and 'alive' by Picard's reasoning, I don't think he'd see it as any different to cloning LaForge in order to try out an experiment on his eyes. No matter how humane and painless the op. If he dies during the experimental operation, nothing is lost, because LaForge will still exist, right? There's something deeply disturbing about casually treating a lifeform in this way that I think Picard would not be able to reconcile
You mention consent and I agree there's a chance they'd carry through the convictions of the OG to 'consent' moments after coming into being. However it feels like that it rests on that consent probably being temporary. Every moment that passes after the cloning is a moment they're experiencing and realising they have their own life and existence. I don't think it would take long before they changed their mind.
It reminds me a little of the Tuvix problem. By time they'd found a way to reverse the accident, Tuvix had fallen in love with existence and refused to consent.
CaptainMatticus@reddit
He didn't want to be dissected specifically because he had no confidence that Maddox could preserve his memories correctly. As he put it, the flavor of the experiences could be lost forever. Having countless clones whose memories are all perfectly copied and intact would solve that problem. The memories would still be preserved in someone else. And as I said in my first post, Data demonstrated that he could copy memories and experiences over from one Soong-Type android brain to another, as he did with Lal before she was deactivated. There's no reason why there couldn't be a cloud mind built by the many Datas, almost like the Tachikoma's from Ghost in the Shell, where all of their experiences are shared and integrated with one another. They'd lose nothing in the research.
KJPicard24@reddit
Yeah I take your point, he/they may quell Picard's moral objection that even if they're lifeforms and every bit a person as he is, if they understand the risk but consent on the basis they'll live on in Data anyway, then fair enough. It's an android perspective which I guess Picard would have to respect. A bit like Worf's suicide ritual, the human perspective is to live the best you can with a disability, but for a Klingon the cultural norm is to end your own life. He doesn't push his view on Worf.
I think our opinions are actually covered quite well in Data and Picard's discussions after Lal's creation.
It's what's great about these episodes, how artificial life could/should be respected like human life in certain ways, but also how they see things like death and reproduction will be different.
BILLCLINTONMASK@reddit
Transporters cannot be used to clone people outside of one specific planet one in one specific circumstance.
Watch Realm of Fear. You see an entire transporter sequence from the first person perspective. YOU go in and YOU step out. There’s no cloning or duplicating happening
fumoderators@reddit
In "Relics", Scotty steps out after decades without a perception of time in between. So you wouldn't know if you were the original or not. Hence, "Second Chances." Which yes was a reflection, duplication is still canonically possible. Just not on the same pad yet.
BILLCLINTONMASK@reddit
You are the original. Star Trek transporters explicitly do not duplicate or clone you or kill the original or anything like that. People are shown numerous times talking, moving, and even firing weapons while being transported. I mentioned that there is one very specific exception to this which is shown in “second chances”
As for “Relics” we can chalk any differences up to Scotty’s rigging the system to do what it needed to do messing with things.
KJPicard24@reddit
The problem with Trek is you can cherry pick an episode to support whatever view you have on how transporters work.
For instance, even within TNG itself, Lonely Among Us shows Picard beaming out into space as pure energy. Hours later he is restored into matter from taking the energy and reconstituting his physical pattern stored in the transporter system. They mention this specifically. So as far as that episode is concerned, so long as you have enough energy, you can 'build' people into matter from their stored pattern.
KJPicard24@reddit
This doesn't solve the problem with Maddox, it's just compounds it. You don't just have one Data having his rights questioned, you have dozens.
“Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there they sit.”
RellyOhBoy@reddit
Startrek science says: NO!
Fit-Relative-786@reddit
Use a giant fist.
CaptainMatticus@reddit
I'm more surprised that Data never once thought of donating Lore to Maddox's research.
"Oh, you need to study one of Soong's androids? No problem!"
NoodlesMom0722@reddit
That's basically how we ended up with Thomas Riker, isn't it?
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit
yeah it didn't make sense that starfleet didnt clone an army of datas
Ok_Television9820@reddit
They could do that with anyone! Enginering problem? Beam over a dozen Geordies. Security alert, send ten Worfs to cargo hold four. Toilets clogged in decks three theough seven, put three dozen Wesleys on it.
Cattle-egret@reddit
This completely solves the Tuvix problem. Just make an extra. One for Janeway to execute and one to live!
Ok_Television9820@reddit
And the original Neelix and Tuvok as well.
Ummagumma@reddit (OP)
Star Trek meets Mickey 17.