No, e-bikes should not require insurance and registration
Posted by Inciteful_Analysis@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 384 comments
PERSPECTIVE IS ESSENTIAL
We hear about e-bike deaths and injuries skyrocketing in the last 5 years but so has usage. Until these figures are normalized by the number of participants and miles ridden and compared to bicycle stats, we do not have solid data. One report indicates a TOTAL of 104 e-bike related fatalities between 2018 and 2022 with just six of those being pedestrians hit by an e-biker.
Every year about 6,000 die in motorcycle accidents. About 400 people (mostly kids) drown in pools. Between 50 and 100 Americans die from bee stings every year. And over 7,000 pedestrians die per year due to motor vehicles.
Maybe if those 7,000 pedestrians were on class 3 e-bikes many of them would still be alive. We don't know one way or the other. But we do know that e-bikes are a very small portion of the fatalities and receiving a disproportionate amount of regulatory interest. We should be focused on addressing the 30,000 annual motor vehicle deaths, improving motorcycle safety and awareness, and doing more to protect pedestrians.
Those under 21 cannot drink alcohol. Some rental car companies will not rent to those under 25. What are we doing allowing minors to get a motorcycle license as young as 16? Vehicles capable of hitting triple digit speeds in a matter of seconds.
Why is the penalty for texting while driving a mere citation (\~$100) while driving under the influence results in arrest, heavy fines, and a loss of driving privileges. The risk imposed by texting while driving is substantially higher as it can result in a reaction delay of three seconds or more. Minorly impaired reactions are typically on the order of a one second delay. NHTSA estimates that over 400 Americans are killed per year due to texting. It's time to treat this offense like the life and death danger it is. Someone barreling down the road at 60mph in a two-and-a-half-ton SUV with eyes glued to their phone should warrant more focus than someone primarily endangering their own life riding an e-bike at 20mph.
Average e-bike riders are not an issue in the grand scheme of things.
chuckwolf@reddit
About a year ago there was an attempt in a Florida town to ban ebikes because a woman was killed in an "accident" involving one
But here are the facts:
The woman was riding a normal bicycle but not wearing a helmet, the 12 year old was riding a 500 watt class 2 20 mph completely legal super 73 kid's model, he was also wearing a helmet
The woman for some reason crossed the center line of the street and collided head on with the 12 year old. the impact knocked them both from their bikes , the boy suffered minor injuries, because he was wearing a helmet.
The Woman died when her head hit the pavement. because again... no helmet.
Photos taken at the scene clearly show both bikes on the side of the road in the direction of travel of the boy.
Yet they attempted to ban ebikes when the ebike rider was the actual victim
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I heard about this incident but did not know all the details you shared. Thank you. Legislation should never be a knee jerk reaction to a single incident.
Top-Watercress5948@reddit
We have to be honest with ourselves about the reason behind government desire to regulate e-bikes, which is money. Registration is an additional revenue stream. Money make the world go round. The only way to beat it at this point is to have ebike manufacturers lobby (pay) to states leadership to keep these unregulated.
For further stats, there are an average of 1000 bicycle rider deaths in the US annually.
There’s only an average of 27 ebike deaths in the US annually.
This is such an insignificant number of incidents it literally isn’t worth of leadership thinking of it in any serious capacity, and is a waste of taxpayer resources.
desert_sailor@reddit
💯As you say, the only reason states license anything is revenue. Need a license to identify an ebike when it's fleeing the scene of a crime or bank robbery. Yeah right! None of the fees ever go toward enforcement or anything related to the.licensed vehicle. Several years.ago, FL wanted to license kayaks and canoes.
YakInevitable8770@reddit
Or hear me out. They use the license registration fees to pave the roads and if you're going to use them, you need to provide the money. It's the same thing with electrical cars. All the states are now charging them A yearly fee.
And while you're on it, I believe if you're on the road, no matter what you are on the road, you need to have liability insurance So many times I've seen bikers smash into a parked car or smashed into some crossing the street And the fact that I see this at least twice a month means it's a huge issue and if we want to be on the road you need to have liability insurance. So when you screw up you can fix and make someone whole again
Own_Calendar7691@reddit
Absolutely right
Accomplished_Job6927@reddit
I'm sure this is part of it. Ebikes and scooters are going to reach critical mass in a few years and the government wants to get in at the ground floor for taxation purposes
Expensive-Border-869@reddit
As well as tracking them its handy for the police very often with cars. If they let them grow until they're popular they'll have potentially billions of unregistered won't get registered ebikes some are in landfills who knows where the rest are. Just a hassle later on.
Not that I want regulation
TrueNova332@reddit
everything is about money with government I'm surprised more people haven't switched to ebikes or escooters in Massachusetts because of the excise tax on vehicles increasing as well as insurance rates going up and gas prices as well
drumdogmillionaire@reddit
But they really, really want to get that registration money and insurance money!
meapplejak@reddit
I appreciate you
WeCanDoIt17@reddit
If you are referring to Key Biscayne, they tried to ban ebikes and escooters and succeeded. The current ban is set to expire August 31, 2025 unless it is extended.
chuckwolf@reddit
Do you actually think people who own and ride ebikes there are obeying their little "ban"?
WeCanDoIt17@reddit
Yes.
It is an entire police department enforcing for a small island of mostly wealthy individuals. There is an exception for disabled individuals but currently many are getting around on golf carts which are not banned.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
Aren't golf carts in general banned on public roads though? Kinda putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.
WeCanDoIt17@reddit
If you are a resident, you can register your golf cart and ride drive around all of the streets of the island except the primary one, Crandon Blvd.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
But why ban the e-bicycles though?
WeCanDoIt17@reddit
Combination of misinformation, an overreaction, and nimby boomers.
Expensive-Border-869@reddit
They gotta do stuff to get paid. Sorta at least it looks bad if they do literally nothing so they do useless shit
Addictedz2017@reddit
Well I'm in a 34,000 population in Wisconsin. I have a 2006 Catrike Road recumbent trike. I just installed a CYC X1 PRO GEN 4 AND Golden Motors 72v battery with a 72t chain ring and few other mods. I got it up to 78.5 mph. Cops here are pretty cool and no I don't drive like an idiot. But there are places in town that have 45mph and the mayor here is a bike lane nut. As far as them ever making us pay registration. I refuse.
KiwiMarkH@reddit
This town wanted to ban e-bikes because of one death? Had they already banned cars? That is some pretty messed up thinking!
kurisu7885@reddit
Odds are some busybody want them banned to start with and felt this incident was just the excuse they needed
KiwiMarkH@reddit
Yeah, could be someone who was thinking "this is a new thing, we didn't have it before, so we shouldn't have it now". The good old "the world is changing and I don't like it" mentality.
kurisu7885@reddit
I'm guessing someone in that town wanted ebikes banned to start with and they felt that incident was just the excuse they needed
sockpuppetrebel@reddit
That’s Florida for you
badtux99@reddit
Where Florida Man not only makes the news on a regular basis, but gets elected to public office.
Dr__Pangloss@reddit
all that may be true, but this subreddit is not a good place to debate the merits of "thing that costs money"
Own_Calendar7691@reddit
Of course they should be regulated. A woman had her face smashed in at a cost of £10k dental repair treatment that she can’t afford to pay. Nobody is liable. It’s a ridiculous situation. Get real.
Calm_Pass_4289@reddit
E-bikes need to be limited to 20mph max. You have absolutely no reason to go any faster than 20mph on a uninsured motor vehicle especially when on sidewalks with pedestrians. The fact anyone with lost licenses and perma DUIs can just hop on a ebike and travel 45mph is just bazar. Why even have license laws if you can just ride the grey area?
I am so glad we are getting new restrictions in FL soon.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
It's less safe to bicycle on 25mph residential roads at 20mph. Inability to keep up with traffic leads to getting passed which introduces risk.
So yes, there is a reason to go beyond 20mph. You just haven't thought it through.
pvirushunter@reddit
Lots of whataboutism.
Truth is a few have made it hard for the rest of us.
Many "ebikes" are not really ebikes but are really electric motorcycles.
Regulations need to catch up and separate the e-bikes with the e-motorcycles out there.
If an ebike cannot be safely pedaled without the assistance of a motor it is NOT an ebike.
An ebike should not be written with ONLY with a throttle because then it's a moped.
What is the difference between e-mopeds, e-motorcyclesn and e-bicycles?
Until we stop calling everything an ebike we will have these sweeping rules that make no sense.
Canahedo@reddit
I have not heard a single argument against throttles on ebikes that doesn't boil down to "I just don't think they should count." If we're talking about weight of the bike, power of the motor, top speed, those are reasonable things to factor in regarding categorization or legislation. But "I think you should have to pedal at all times" comes from the same thinking as "Having a motor on your bike is cheating".
An ebike does not go faster when someone is using the throttle than when pedaling, it is not more dangerous than an equivalent pedal assist bike, and focusing too much on taxonomy ("That's not part of this arbitrary category, it's part of that other arbitrary category") instead of the physics of the actual bikes in question does not address the underlying problems which are that infrastructure is not keeping up with needs, forcing too many different modes of travel to occupy the same space, causing conflicts.
Anything that gets people to use a vehicle that is not a car is a good thing. A big part of the appeal of ebikes is that they do not have the prohibitively expensive insurance and license requirements that cars have. If you whittle away at the reasons someone has to choose an ebike over a car, you risk more people saying "Eh fuck it, I'll just drive".
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Largely concur. One could even argue that if used properly a throttle can improve safety.
Some mountain bike trails ban throttles and I think there is reasonable justification for this. For one thing, you do not want unintended acceleration. Secondly, mountain biking a two-way single track demands a level of focus substantially higher than normal. Less experienced riders casually throttling around will not be as sharply focused. But this is a niche example that doesn't apply to mainstream riding.
elevenblade@reddit
I also largely concur but would add another category to the regulation of throttled ebikes: underage riders. I don’t have hard evidence to support this and am willing to change my opinion if someone does but my sense is that underage ebikers are more of a danger to themselves and others when riding throttled bikes.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Fair to study this and act if the data supports it.
Some states have age restrictions for class 3. If you are correct, making those age restrictions apply to both class 2 and class 3 would have justification.
Decent_Reach_7669@reddit
in nj its 15 for everything, pa is 16. Again there are already these laws in place, they should be enforced, not add new ones. Its like the freaking 2A arguments The stuff people are complaining about has been against the law for years
Decent_Reach_7669@reddit
they are already in most states. its 15 in nj. They can add all the regulations they want, the problem riders are the ones that are already illegal. In most states, also the federal guideline is 750 max, The surrons are not bikes, so regulating the crap out of us, is not stopping the problem, only hurting the people who use them correctly, The 2000 watt dual moto 45 mph are already illegal. Pretty much everything people complain about IS ALREADY AGAINST THE LAW
KostyaFedot@reddit
Americans always finding ways how to get unfit from very young age.
I came to Canadian hometown after two years in Belgium/ Netherlands. In this part of Europe ebikes are without throttle only. Also stand up escooters. Not too fast if sold via legal stores. And mopeds with throttle. 25kmph ebikes and mopeds and 45kmph ebikes and mopeds. The 45 ones are age restricted, registration and insurance needed. I can't recall kids on ebikes. They are on bicycles. And no little kids on stand on scooters.
In Canadian hometown.... I went to say hi to owner of LBS. Family walked in and asked for ebike for something like 10 yo. Already overweight.
This summer it is full of kids and adults on throttle assistance two wheelers. No helmets. Someone are driving in the middle of the roads. Wild West II.
I'm going back to Belgium soon, won't miss this lack of civilization at all. And Netherlands this is were pedaling is for real. Well, we don't have to deal with snow where 😀
elevenblade@reddit
I’m in Sweden and would simply not be able to bicycle in the snow if I didn’t have pedal assist and studded snow tires.
I share your concerns about fitness. A pedal assist ebike can actually make it more likely your kid will actually use it more often, especially if you live someplace with bad weather or a lot of hills. The regulatory stuff needs to focus on safety though.
KostyaFedot@reddit
You missed one point. Rocks and trees doest move. Cars and pedestrians does. And sometimes in unpredictable directions, not just two ways....
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Most all mountain biking trails ban throttles because, as far as I’m aware at least here in the US, mountain bike trails generally only allow class 1 e-bikes if they allow them at all.
And there’s a reason beyond what you said: it’s the instant torque. Maintaining mountain bike trails is already a challenge involving tons of volunteer hours, and e-bikes are already contentious in that sphere. So being able to flick your thumb and apply 80+nm of torque instantly to a pedal trail is a great way to rip it up and create additional trail work for volunteers. It’s exactly why MTB trails are for MTBs and not dirt bikes.
kurisu7885@reddit
Same frustration some in rural areas have with dirt bike and ATV riders.
stormdelta@reddit
I'm fine with that for MTB trails, but a lot of us are using our bikes as transportation, and there it's very different.
Quick acceleration is often very desirable for safety, not just convenience:
Less attention on gearing means more situational awareness
Less time spent in intersections is directly correlated with increased cyclist safety (same reason why many states now adopt the "Idaho stop" rule)
Safer than trying to pedal in slick/slushy conditions in winter (based on direct personal experience)
Sometimes it's safer to accelerate out of the way rather than trying to emergency stop
I also have personal experience riding ebikes for years both with and without a throttle. I've never had a serious accident with either, but I found I had far fewer close calls with the throttle.
Jessica_T@reddit
Throttles are /great/ for getting off the line at a stop sign/stoplight when you're using hub motors. Means I don't have to climb my way through the gears, I can just start pedaling in 7th and the motor can supply the torque needed to get me up to the speed where I can start contributing with my pedals again.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Why not just shift into the appropriate gear?
Variatas@reddit
Because if it’s for transportation rather than fun you aren’t always in peak form, and you also have to deal with day-to-day chaos.
Reducing complexity makes it easier to keep riding every day.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
If you can’t mentally process that you need to shift gears on a bike, which is a thumb movement that every bike rider has had to perform for decades, I don’t think you’re making a great case for having a throttle and riding along side cars.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Couldn't you make the same argument that if someone cannot drive a manual transmission, they should not be driving at all?
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Plenty of people do make that argument.
And anyone who said driving a manual is too difficult to do when you’ve had a hard day shouldn’t be driving a car either.
Variatas@reddit
A Class 2 with throttle is not markedly more dangerous than a normal bike, and a hell of a lot safer than a car.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Sure. I’m just talking about the argument that shifting gears is somehow too much mental load to process while riding a bike. That argument is just stupid.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
Have you ever had to hit the brake, like hard? Maybe a light turned. Maybe a car was approaching. Maybe there's a gaping hole in the road. Were you able to shift down all 7, 8, 9 gears before you stopped? Probably no, as ithers have said, you were focused on not crashing.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
And?
Look, I get it. Throttle diehards like to talk about all of these worst case scenarios where these one off situations can only be solved by a throttle. Because for all the decades bikes have existed and the ludicrous amount of miles traveled by analog bikes all around the world these scenarios can only be solved by thumb throttles.
Rumor has it there’s still tens of thousands of people stuck at red lights due to sudden braking, unable to progress forward because there is no way to move a bike that isn’t in the perfect gear at a red light if it doesn’t have a throttle. It’s tragic really.
Variatas@reddit
Yeah, how dare we advocate for technology that lowers the barrier of entry and provides a better experience for different people with different abilities.
I can live without throttles, therefore nobody else could ever need them.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
It took me about a week on standard before I was proficient enough running errands without killing the engine. I loved the manual transmission, glad I got to own one before I quit driving.
pvirushunter@reddit
Not at all. Your comparison is more like using a manual derailleur vs internal hub.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Spy was complaining that some of those riding bikes didn't shift gears. Thus the question as to why someone driving a car should not be expected to shift gears was entirely appropriate.
pvirushunter@reddit
Disagree apples and oranges
Variatas@reddit
It’s not just a thumb movement, it’s the planning and forethought of multiple gear selectors, while approaching a conflict point, and a drive train that unlike in cars doesn’t like shifting at a stop.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
As someone who cycles thousands and thousands of unassisted miles a year the mental struggles you guys seem to have just existing on the road is truly amazing.
I guess I’m just blessed that my 5 year old can manage to shift gears and ride 10+ miles without complaining about the incredible, incomprehensible complexities of operating a bike on the road.
badtux99@reddit
Yeah yeah, you're elite and super human and yada yada and she's just a poor schlub trying to get to work. What's your point? That everybody should be you? Well, not everybody is. So sorry.
Elitist attitudes like that are what kill hobbies.
pvirushunter@reddit
Yeah I think some people are new to this biking deal.
If you bike a bit stuff happens. I've had flats, derailleur break, spoke break, seat post break, fallen over because I've forgotten to unclip or because the screws have loosened up...wet leaves, wet brick, wet rails, gears not working...I've had almost every single part of my bike breakdown on the road.
Ive fallen over because I had to start on a low gear on an uphill. I've learned and just dealt with it.
Not saying everyone has to do this but its a slow ride back home, walk, or chain it somewhere. Its not that hard. I like my ebike for commutes and like having all types of bicyclist out there.
I dont like some of these ebikes pretending to be ebikes where they are really closer to mopeds. They dont belong on trails and should not be classified as bikes. This stuff ruins it for everyone.
Can it be ridden safely in an unassisted matter?
Yes = bike no = non-functional bike therefore not in a bike category.
Jessica_T@reddit
Because you have to constantly shift up and down to 1 every few hundred feet when you hit an intersection. And that sucks.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
Auto-shifting does exist, FWIW. But that means a computer decides what gear you should be in.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Yes, like everyone who rides a bike anywhere. That’s how bikes work, you shift gears on them.
Jessica_T@reddit
Same with cars, for decades. And yet, people invented automatic transmissions. Gee, i wonder why.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
My emtb has an automatic transmission, and it doesn’t have a throttle. Shimano XT AutoShift.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
Meanwhile most of us have old fashioned thumb or grip shifters. I mean, I think my manually actuated paddle shifters are nice. No use really for an automatic, I imagine if it shifted without my input, that would be jarring. Does it adjust for cadence? Can it automatically downshift if you stopped after a hard brake?
Fun fact though, I rode a bike with hub transmission, and you can change gears at a stop with a gear hub. Just not chain deraillers.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
It’s somewhat of a gimmick but on an emtb it’s about the only time I’ve actually been impressed by electronic shifting in general. It does adjust for cadence and because the e-bike knows what gear you’re in, and the mid drive can advance the chainring independent of the cranks, it can shift gears while you’re coasting/braking as long as your speed is above a certain threshold because obviously gear shifting on any cassette system requires the rear wheel to partially rotate to actually move the chain onto a new gear.
Jessica_T@reddit
That's great for you. Some of us are more on the budget end of our bikes, because we don't have a ton of money.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
In traffic, it is often the case a traffic light turns suddenly or you have to break hard. This isn't your "coast to a stoplight while simultaneously downshifting so I can be in the right gear at green" mindset, which often doesn't work if you have to hit the brake at speed.
While acceleration is faster using pas than with the conservatively tuned throttle, if hitting the brakes to stop meant also not being able to downshift, then starting in high gear is awkward and not good for either your legs or your derailleur.
So taking off with the throttle up until 10+ mph, then pedalling thereafter, another great usage of throttle. The velotric 2 even has cruise control (hold down minus at speed) I have used it...
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
The downside is that starting off with the throttle is likely to overheat the motor, especially in summertime. I think there's not that much strain on your joints if you stand up to pedal.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Idk why you guys always come up with this same list of reasons when the truth is, for most e-bike riders, they like the throttle because it’s fun and no work.
Yeah all that stuff is great, but it’s dancing around the real reason: you push a button and go. Enough said.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Throttles have many legit uses that have nothing to do with being lazy:
I doubt you've seen this list before from someone else. Just because some riders do not want to pedal is no reason to deprive other riders of these benefits.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
OP, I have used throttle for all these reasons as well. I rode the throttle thd entire month of january this year, after getting a knee injury and being unable to pedal.
I'll add a bullet point. Being too tired to pedal home after partying or staying out all night (we were not drunk, just dog assed tired). This person is clearly ablist.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
He wants his automatic-shifting eMTB but wants to take your throttle away. It's just bizarre. An elitist ableist.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
This list is the same list everyone comes up with. I’m not your wife, you don’t need to feet me lines about health and safety to justify why you want a throttle. I’ve been riding e-bikes for years, unless you’re disabled your list is meaningless for 99.999% of the time spent on the bike.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Why do you feel this was a personal list? It was not. But I recognize there are many who genuinely benefit from a throttle due to health or age.
While some of the reasons are the same. Few, if any, consider creek crossings or avoiding rattlesnakes as a benefit of a throttle. So, NO, it is not the same list.
Drive train failures are a solid reason for getting a hub drive with throttle. Your 99.999% stat is fabricated and absurd. I have decades of experience to make this observation (frequency of drivetrain failures) which outweigh your "riding e-bikes for years".
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
Alright buddy, i guess you spend a fair chunk of your ride time crossing creeks and speeding away from snakes. Didn’t realize your were Indiana Jones.
Maybe you witness so many failed drivetrains because you guys keep buying dogshit bikes? It’s amazing that enduro races where riders bomb down literal mountains don’t have drivetrain’s spontaneously exploding on us like you hardcore theottle riders on your sidewalk cruises.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Actually I think I have more drivetrain issues because I have a high end 12 speed. Think 10 and 11 speeds are more robust without the tight clearances. I said nothing about having drivetrain issues on sidewalks. But sure, attack my bike and make disparaging insinuations.
This may come as a shock to you, but certain areas of the country are infested with rattlesnakes. And I've encountered them in multiple rides on the trail in a single week. So maybe slow down with thinking you know what other people need and bashing throttles as only useful for being lazy.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
What 12 speed drivetrains suddenly fail? I’ve got 12 speed drivetrains in Shimano (Deore, SLX, XT, and GRX) along with SRAM (Eagle NX, GX, GX AXS, Rival AXS, and Force AXS)
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
If you don't understand why additional parts and tighter tolerances contribute to less reliability and robustness, I cannot help you.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
I build high end bikes as a hobby. S-Works/Santa Cruz/Transition/Pinarello/Forbidden, and they have high end suspension and parts. I listed the drivetrains I specifically use. They’re reliable as hell.
They’re reliable enough for the likes of Tadej Pogačar and Thomas Pidcock who put out significantly more power than you’d ever dream of.
So please enlighten me into which 12 speed drivetrains don’t hold up to your riding?
stormdelta@reddit
Somehow I doubt you'd be framing these as a bad thing if it were anything else like a car.
My bike is transportation, not recreation. Of course I want to push a button and go, I'm just trying to get from point A to point B 99% of the time. It's bizarre to act like that's somehow a bad thing.
spyVSspy420-69@reddit
I’m not framing it like it’s a bad thing because it absolutely makes sense, I just don’t get why that real reason is always missing from the list of justifications. Why are all these throttle proponents so afraid to just come out and say it’s easy and fun?
KostyaFedot@reddit
Looks like you never tried no throttle ebike. It is very different from e-moped a.k.a. ebike with throttle. Those are absolutely two different engagements with road and traffic.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I specifically excluded e-motos. There is a legal definition for e-bikes in the US:
Throttles have many legit uses besides riding like a moped:
Kletronus@reddit
excluded from the whole topic by default.
Why do you need to clear intersections that fast? Is the infra lacking in such a way that it forces you to do things that bicycles normally don't do? There are alternatives, for ex in EU you can use throttle up to 6kmh, \~4mph. That is enough to get you moving. Remember that ebikes need to work in places where normal bicycles work, and they do not have any push assists.
Sure.... but it does not need then max speed, right? It can be just an assist to help you start..
grasping straws.
WUT?
stormdelta@reddit
Less time spent in intersections is objectively safer for cyclists. It's why many states have adopted the "Idaho stop" rule, there is data backing this up.
EU isn't the US. Most parts of the EU have drastically better cycling infrastructure, much shorter distances, and smaller/slower roads with less visibility.
Riding in slushy/icy weather, I find the throttle is dramatically safer than trying to pedal. Especially when there is a high risk of the chain slipping due to water freezing on it.
Not really. Redundancy between motor and human drivetrain is one of the reasons I went with a hub drive, and that has saved me from being stranded somewhere more than once.
Flat_Review2501@reddit
Please stop looking at concepts through only your part of the world. We do not have the same infrastructure in the US. My state in the US barely even has bike lanes. Biking is not optimized here.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Kletronus@reddit
1- Accessibility because of disabilities is totally different category. We exclude things because of that, we don't formulate the rules for the majority because of a minority that requires tons of special exceptions and basically, another ruleset that suits them.
What the fuck are you talking about? Intersections should not be that dangerous, period. This only says that no form of bicycling can work if you can't cross the street with a regular bicycle but need more acceleration. Average cyclist commuter speeds are around 10-12mph, on the planet.
So? I just gave you an alternative and you dismissed it as an option because you don't want it as an option. It was never about starting from an incline, was it? You want no ban, none of that 4mph push assist shit, right? Wouldn't that be better than nothing?
I did not fail to understand. It is still grasping straws. What happens and works on trail is not what we are talking about. You go have your fucking hobby and use whatever you want, this is about PUBLIC ROADS. You are trying to use your forest rules on the urban settings. This is grasping straws.
I have 40 years of experience of cycling as main mode of transport, motherfucker. What fucking creek do you cross on your daily commute and why are there snakes in it?
Yu are a trail rider and want rules that allow you to have those on the trail, while the whole fucking topic is about urban settings, road ruiles. If you don't have an insurance and you ride trails, you are an idiot but at least you most likely will not hurt others. When you are among other people, either top speeds come down a lot, OR insurance needs to be there.
Now, you can have class 1 without insurance, class 2 with basic insurance and class 3 with full insurance and license. Nice compromise that DOES think about the commuter and first adopters having it the easiest and those who are more serious and want to have more power being gradually forced to take it mores seriously too.
There are tons of options but NONE OF THEM will work on trails and in traffic at the same time, and disabled on top, maybe even disabled on trails while we are it, maybe we use that as the basis for the new rules?
chuckwolf@reddit
Even if the ebike is over 750 watts or can go faster than 28 mph it should still be considered an electric bicycle as long as it has pedals and a functioning pedal assist system. The only speed restriction legally should be the posted speed limit.
stormdelta@reddit
I agree on power, but not at all on speed.
28mph is a very reasonable maximum for bicycles in the US when considering braking power and handling + visibility of many bike trails/paths. It's also hard to get much faster than that for any length without beefing the frame and components up enough that most would no longer say it looks anything like a bicycle.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
It would make more sense to have a variable power limit based on the gradient being climbed. I would willing accept a 500W limit on flat ground in exchange for a 1500W limit on 8% gradients and a 2000W limit on 12% gradients.
Perhaps too complicated to codify, but it would be more sensible (technical challenges aside). You need more power to climb, and you can also stop more quickly when going uphill.
chuckwolf@reddit
The bike i ride will do 40 mph
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
So if BMW adds functioning pedals to this beast, it should be allowed on bicycle trails, right?
chuckwolf@reddit
Only if it also has pedal assist LOL and the rider follows the posted speed limit while pedaling it
pvirushunter@reddit
and they are bad standards proven by the issues we now see
The throttle issues you noted are fine but dont call it bike.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
There would be issues with ANY standards adopted. The class 1/2/3 system is well-established and dismantling it should not be done lightly unless it can be shown a clearly superior system exists.
Why would you opt to destroy the functionality of a class 2 ebike because some riders abuse throttles? It's not just me calling it a bike, it's many state laws that recognize it as such.
missionarymechanic@reddit
I don't comprehend the "vestigal pedal" vehicles, either.
My charger fried, and I'm waiting on a replacement. But, because it's an actual "bicycle," I'm still able to commute my 20+ km a day. It sucks on a fat-tire cargo bike, but it's doable.
It's like this one comedian said how escalators don't break, they just turn into stairs... "Sorry about the convenience."
Functional and comfortable pedals mean: greater available torque, extended range, less wear on motor and battery, low impact exercise, and redundancy.
Who wants less of any one of those??
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree with you for the most part. Ebikes with throttles are effectively mopeds and should be able to legally ride on roads. Throttles also provide mobility to people with physical disabilities, so I believe that ebikes with throttles should be allowed on non-motorized paths only for riders with an official handicapped permit. I believe that this would prevent much of the abuse that we currently see.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
And what would you tell riders in remote areas with hub drives when their chain breaks? Sorry, you can't throttle home without a handicapped permit?
pvirushunter@reddit
Look I get your concern but a back up plan is not a justifiable reason. It simply isnt.
what happens when regular bike chain breaks or it becomes unrideable?
You walk it home or chain it and come back for it. Yes it sucks but it has been done millions of times before.
What happens if you have health condition same thing...chain it and call an Uber/Lyft/taxi.
What happens when your car breaks down? Same thing.
These are all just poor justifications.
kurisu7885@reddit
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
You've not provided any justification why throttles need to be categorically banned. They absolutely have legitimate uses which I think too many are either unaware of or lack appreciation for. That a normal bike doesn't have redundancy is no rationale for stripping an e-bike.
The danger is related to speed far more so than how the speed is achieved. Being able to clear an intersection quickly when the light changes is itself a safety feature provided by a throttle. Using a throttle isn't inherently unsafe. Remaining seated with feet locked in position can actually be safer depending on the situation.
BoringBob84@reddit
Because a rider in a remote area who forgot to bring a basic tool kit to that remote area and who is unable to walk home (even though he doesn't qualify for a handicapped permit) might break a chain (even though he doesn't have a mid-drive motor putting stress on the chain), then we should let every able-bodied rider on every non-motorized trail use throttles on machines that are not practical to pedal to begin with (because of the high weight, the bench seat, the fat tires, and the lack of adequate gear ratios), regardless of the danger to pedestrians and bicyclists. /sarcasm
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
You do realize that a chain tool is not a guaranteed fix, right? The pin is weakened and the chain is prone to break again. Some of us have the leg strength to break chains on a normal MTB, so mid-drive or not, a chain can still be broken. Mid-drive just makes it easier.
On top of that you can have snapped derailleurs and broken cassettes. Surely you don't suggest carrying extra derailleurs and cassettes on every ride.
E-bikes are not considered motorized vehicles. Who specified a heavy, bench seat, fat tire bike with no gear range? On actual mountain bike trails you won't find those riders because they would likely hurt themselves in the first mile.
BoringBob84@reddit
It depends on the "e-bike" and the local laws. I am proposing that Class 2 ebikes in the USA should not be allowed on non-motorized paths (as they currently are) unless the rider is handicapped. This is already the case on many un-paved, non-motorized paths on much of state land where I live.
In regards to the possibility of a broken chain, if I break the chain on my mid-drive ebike or my standard bike, then I either have to fix the chain, walk home, or call for a ride. I don't see why it should be any different for riders on Class 2 ebikes.
I get accused of "gatekeeping" for saying this, but I will argue that I am an advocate for all micro-mobility. I want to be very sensitive to the real (or imagined) concerns about safety from pedestrians and bicyclists, because I don't want to see any more ebike bans.
pvirushunter@reddit
not gate keeping making bicycling more inclusive for the wider community
perfect example of wanting a motorcycle style "bike" but wanting the lax rules of traditional bikes
traditional bikes are great for the community because they are SLOWER than other vehicles and can exist with pedestrians
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
And I think your blanket ban is ridiculous. I'm open to a case-by-case ban where appropriate.
Should I have to lock my rear suspension on a trail because some people ride hard tails? Why should someone with a hub drive be prevented from getting home after a drivetrain failure because their buddy with a mid-drive is walking it?
BoringBob84@reddit
That is a good question! I think illustrates an important nuance. The first question I would ask if I was a land manager who was considering a new regulation would be, "Does a rear suspension cause more danger to other trail users than a hard tail?"
If the answer was, "no" and I made the restriction anyway, then that would be "gatekeeping."
But if the answer was "yes," then I would be justified in regulating the convenience and comfort of one group of users for the safety of another group of users.
I admit that the hard data on this is not completely conclusive, but anecdotally - based on my personal experience - the people riding dangerously on non-motorized paths are not elderly retirees on a Sunday stroll on their Class 1 "Euro-spec" / 250 Watt ebikes. They are the thrill-seeking, perfectly healthy young men on motorcycles that just barely meet the strict letter (but not the intent) of the legal definition of Class 2 ebikes (and that are easily de-restricted to travel much faster).
Don't get me wrong, I want these riders to be able to ride these machines legally. They are excellent alternatives to driving. I am just concerned about the safety of doing so around pedestrians, pets, children, and bicyclists.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I mean, I don't see the problem with that? Panniers exist.
For example, if your tire gets a flat, throttle probably won't save you.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Panniers on a mountain bike?
With Slime, flats are a very rare occurrence. Far less frequent than drivetrain issues.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I mean, why not? Otherwise a backpack would work.
I think if you're traveling to a remote area then you should be prepared for anything.
brokenbentou@reddit
What about other e-devices like one-wheels and EUCs?
1111joey1111@reddit
That's the way it always goes unfortunately. Most laws exist because a few morons ruined everything for everyone else.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
An ebike should not be ridden with only a throttle...
I was able to get around for a whole month after I busted my knee, because of the throttle, when I couldn't bend my leg without severe pain. After about 5 weeks, I started using the pedals again.
Ebikes are mobility devices for some.
Wh33lsEDI@reddit
You sound like a hater. There are reckless people out here riding like maniac's. That's the problem.
TheRealSterikics@reddit
People need to stop being dumb and disrespecting the road regardless of their mode of travel. People drive 40 in 20s here, stop at a screech past stop signs, and it is a nightmare trying to share the road. Which forces bikes and scooters on to the sidewalks making them more dangerous. If only we had an institution that could safely enforce traffic regulations...
wturber@reddit
Keep in mind that legislation is typically passed based on emotions rather than facts and reason. Eventually facts and reason may hold sway. But it the short term it is usual emotion. Keep that in mind when engaging with other to try to convince them. It is probably more important to move them emotionally than logically. Of course, if you can make a logical argument that has the correct emotional impact, that's fantastic. Probably the thing to be noodling on how to do.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
If you make class 1-3 ebikes more burdensome to buy and use, more people will stay in cars, pollute the planet, cause global warming, destroy crops, cause worldwide famine, drown the polar bears, and run over puppies.
How's that?
wturber@reddit
How could you forget "carbon footprint"? How effective that would be depends on who you are talking too.
wturber@reddit
You may be specifically refering to Class 1-3 e-bikes. Just be aware that the accident statistics that other people use may very well not be classifying e-bikes in that way. To the extent that is true, these statistics are unreliable and the arguments based on them would not be strong. We have a hard enough time just getting decent reporting on bicycle accidents and helmet use. The likelihood that we'll get good stats on e-bikes is very low.
Ro-54@reddit
There needs to be rules and laws to restrict the size and speed of the bikes. If you’re going 50 mph then you need insurance and registration. It’s the only way to keep people safe.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
For most states, legal e-bikes top out at 28mph. If it's going 50mph it is an e-moto, not an e-bike.
dirty_neck@reddit
I agree an e bike is no more dangerous than a bicycle
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Almost all of the danger comes from not paying attention which applies whether it is assisted or not.
Bikermec@reddit
Anything over 30mph should require license, insurance and registration.
timute@reddit
This is the answer.
KostyaFedot@reddit
It is how it is done in Europe. Except regular bicycles :)
mailslot@reddit
I hope PEVs don’t get regulated by top speed. I have an electric unicycle and power & speed are deeply connected with safety. The motor is responsible for balancing, inclines, acceleration, and braking. The smaller the motor, the greater the chance of cutting out and slamming into the pavement. Many motors are beefy because of this. Mine is tuned for high torque, rather than speed, but it still can sustain 3kW. Powerful motors mean high speed capability. Moving forward is a balancing act of continuous falling with the wheel catching you from underneath. There is no throttle. To enforce a top speed, you’d need to make the device let you fall and slam your head into the pavement.
stormdelta@reddit
I'd agree with that.
I've experimented with riding above 28mph on my bike several times over the years, and the difference in handling and braking changes surprisingly rapidly the farther above you get, to the point that even just 34-35mph is nearly impossible to get a safe braking distance with.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I start to get uncomfortable riding downhill above 30mph and very uncomfortable at 35mph.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I can get onboard with that.
Consistent-Day-434@reddit
What sets an e-bike apart from an electric motorcycle besides lights?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
As legally defined: Pedals, power output, and top speed.
In practice, size and weight as well.
Consistent-Day-434@reddit
A moped is considered a motorcycle and has pedals and some e bikes can go 80mph. A Honda Grom is considered a motorcycle and is smaller than some ebikes.. so maybe only weight applies??
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Motorcycles do not have pedals. I answered the question you asked.
NO E-BIKES CAN GO 80MPH. THOSE ARE NOT E-BIKES BY LEGAL DEFINITION.
Consistent-Day-434@reddit
Then explain this these two.
https://brucewaynex.com/products/electric-downhill-bike-revolution-w
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
No, I'm losing brain cells conversing with you.
Latinguitr@reddit
Your statistics are skewed. You need common sense and reality, get out of your books. You can be seriously injured at 28mph. You're a fool if you think ebikes don't need insurance and license.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
If you are going to claim my statistics are skewed, present me with alternate sources demonstrating this.
Almost everyone recognizes the potential for serious injury at 28mph.
In most states, actual ebikes (not e-motos) do not have to be insured nor do they require a license. That's a simple fact that has nothing to do with me being a fool or not.
Latinguitr@reddit
The statistics you bring up aren't incorrect you're just skewing them by including more data of a different subset to frame the incidents involving ebikes as an inconsequential percentage. The reality is individuals, mainly juveniles, are hurting themselves and others. Individuals were given the opportunity and squandered it with bad examples. You don't like to equate the two but ebikes and emotos Do require the same training, knowledge,skills to successfully operate, especially on public roads. If you disagree, get hit by a car or run over a pedestrian everyday likes it's GTA 6.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
You are using the word skew incorrectly. The other stats serve as a frame of reference to put the scale of the problem into perspective. No, e-bikes and e-motos do not require the same training or skills. Just like bicycles and motorcycles do not require the same training. States require a specific license to operate a motorcycle. They do not require bicycle licenses. The weight, torque, and speed of motorcycles present challenges not found on bicycles. The same logic applies to e-bikes. Your last sentence doesn't deserve a response.
Latinguitr@reddit
My last serves to present the incredulous fantasy you're propagating, and that is reinforced with your incorrect assumption that ebikes are more akin to bicycles than motorcycles and therefore don't require license. I hope the readers understand that is wholly incorrect. You actually know nothing of the mechanics and physics if you believe electric motors are not capable of such or greater g forces. Once again, accept your flawed logic and retract your harmful rhetoric if you don't want to live in GTA 6.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Unassisted bicycles can be pedaled in excess of 20mph and even 25mph on flat ground. On downhills they can easily top 35mph where it is even harder to stop, not just due to the speed but fighting gravity as well. You have NFC what you are talking about when you start comparing 1HP e-bikes to 10HP e-motos and 100HP motorcycles.
So yes, 1HP e-bikes are far closer in speed, weight, and riding characteristics to a bicycle than a motorcycle. State laws also recognize this. Only in your fantasy are ebikes more like motorcycles. Goodbye.
to4stbuster@reddit
If you're sharing the road with cars, then you should have insurance & registration. You gave death stats but left out ebike accidents involving damage to other people's property. There has to be accountability for scraping & denting cars. Registrations help pay for the roads you're riding on & will help filter the number of bad bikers on the road. I've never been in a vehicle accident. Why should I have to pay for insurance? Because shit happens.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Do you have stats showing e-bikes to be a bigger problem than regular bicycles? Or are you advocating that ordinary bicycles carry insurance and be registered too?
eatbugs858@reddit
If they are a true ebike, i.e pedelec, then no. Anything else should require licence and registration.
Kammy_lul@reddit
Funny but sad how you needed the edit about it being ebikes and not e-motos. I've noticed a trend where people either go to this sub for the love of how convenient ebikes are, jackasses who swear they have a very valid reason as to why 20mph is too slow and act like something is unusable if it cant hit 40+, or people that want to complain for the 100th time because they auto assume every other post has to be referring to a full throttle Surron on a sidewalk through a school zone.
concretecowboy316@reddit
My only reason for wanting the ability to go faster is two of the streets I take to work are about a mile long straight away with no bike lane. So I want the ability to keep up and out of the way then once I get to the street with the bike lane go back to my pedal assist speeds. That's just my situation though
Icypalmtree@reddit
So, for your use case, you need an electric motorcycle. Get the license, registration, and insurance for one ¯\(ツ)/¯.
Or, choose a different path.
Or, drive a car.
Or find another solution to your problems without increasing risk for everyone.
Kozmic-Stardust@reddit
Wow, so ablist!
Perhaps one cannot afford a car/motorcycle and the required registration and insurance. Perhaps one is disabled, have a neurological or physical condition that precludes driving? There are many barriers to getting a driver's license or vehicle which do not apply to bikes.
So no, "just get a car or motorcycle" isn't a very good response.
Icypalmtree@reddit
Yes, such an inclusive policy, only illegal eMotorcycles are inclusive. The legal ones aren't. They're far too less expensive and less dangerous. What ablisim
Yawn, dude(tte).
Imagine trying to flex that Surrons are the only inclusive solution and getting a 750w class 1,2,3 is ablist.
This has gotta be the most ridiculous flex I've heard in a while.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[deleted]
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
This subreddit seems extremely resistant to motorcycles for some reason, compared to /r/bikecommuting .
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
This subreddit seems extremely resistant to motorcycles for some reason, compared to /r/bikecommuting .
Icypalmtree@reddit
Motorcycles are great! Illegal motorcycles, on the other hand, are not. It's really that simple ¯\(ツ)/¯
Kletronus@reddit
Higher speed is not safer, even if you optimize the speed with cars going your war. It does not make it safer, it makes it more dangerous to drive faster. If you are so afraid of other people on the road that you need to drive at unsafe speeds: you can't use a bike then. You are taking huge risks for...? Better health?
concretecowboy316@reddit
That literally makes no sense there's no bike lane for me to turn into and the sidewalk is taken up by the homeless. If I'm going at 30 mph in a 45 I'm holding up traffic. The ability to get up and out of the way is crucial. Law enforcement has agreed with me on this.
kaffesvart@reddit
I don't think anyone should be able to ride a vehicle capable of reaching 45 mph, without a license, registration, insurance, plates or a helmet, on bike lanes, trails or multi use paths.
mailslot@reddit
Good riders can get to 45 on a regular bicycle, no?
concretecowboy316@reddit
Yeah that's why I'm fine with the license and registration part if there's a pathway to do so with Ebikes. But you'd never know how fast my bike is cause I'm usually at the appropriate speed. Now the big issue where I live is everyone going the wrong way in bike lanes.
stormdelta@reddit
I'd have agreed with you said 28mph, especially since class 3 can already do that.
In a lot of the US, 20mph max really is too slow as a maximum speed, and leads to more people in cars that could've otherwise been cycling. Distances are higher, sections with zero bike infrastructure and no alternatives are more common, it doesn't wildly exceed the ability of disc brakes to handle unlike higher speeds, etc.
And 28mph isn't an emoto/moped, because those have to be able to keep up with vehicular traffic, which is often 30-40mph on many US roads.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
Then they shouldn't be trying to solve their transit issues with a bicycle.
It reminds me of something.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1ewasp8/are_batteries_not_manufactured_with_headwind_in/lixfrmd/
You can pedal, but that has a limit too. You can only pedal x watts for y hours, totalling z watt-hours. And if my destination is 90km then my top speed 30kph would already be quite slow, and slowing down would increase my 3 hour travel to even more than 3 hours. Its not practical advice and it ignores the true problem.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1ewasp8/are_batteries_not_manufactured_with_headwind_in/lixtr1d/?context=3
stormdelta@reddit
We want less people using cars, not more. Car-centric infrastructure causes way more problems than anyone on e-bikes will, let alone responsible adult riders.
And irresponsible people do way more damage in a car than they do on an e-bike.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I think if you're traveling 90 km one-way on a daily basis then the bicycle is literally the wrong option. I bet even r/fuckcars would agree with that sentiment. Even in a rural area, a car isn't the sole only option.
I'd argue this subreddit really weird because /r/bikecommuting acknowledges motorcycles have their place for certain commutes.
Like here more than one person told that person to get a motorcycle, but this subreddit seems thinks e-bikes are the solution for everything...
I should note that I doubt anyone disagrees with 28 MPH on roads. It's non-motorized infrastructure with pedestrians and slower cyclists that I believe people are commenting on regarding 20 MPH.
stormdelta@reddit
Sure, in that kind of extreme case I'd agree, but it doesn't change that travel distances are still quite a bit higher in the US compared to EU, and it has a fairly tangible impact on transit times even just for 5-10mile rides.
Sure, but the argument is over saying those paths should be limited to those speeds versus the bikes. Especially when the people arguing against the bikes seem to be treating bicycles as recreation instead of transit and show no regard for the type of bike or rider.
I'd also point out many multi-use paths already have speed restrictions of 15mph, whether you have an ebike or not, and even if they didn't 20mph is already way too fast for low visibility or winding paths.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I don't think this subreddit agrees based on the fact there have been downvotes when anyone has brought up an electric motorcycle in this thread, which is a fine viable option for many cases, and safer too. If you're going to be riding at high speeds (someone mentioned 45 MPH in this thread), then ABS is very useful.
Like I said, if traffic is going at 45 MPH, then a motorcycle is the safer option, because a motorcycle has better safety features for that sort of speed. Motorcycles have larger tires with better grip, more powerful braking systems and ABS.
That's why it's so weird to me that this subreddit rejects electric motorcycles.
From BoringBob84:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/18z7wwq/am_i_the_only_one_tired_of_like_half_the_people/kggjrtp/
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I think if you're traveling 90 km one-way on a daily basis then the bicycle is literally the wrong option. I bet even r/fuckcars would agree with that sentiment. Even in a rural area, a car isn't the sole only option.
I'd argue this subreddit is kind of weird because /r/bikecommuting acknowledges motorcycles have their place for certain commutes.
I should note that I doubt anyone disagrees with 28 MPH on roads. It's non-motorized infrastructure with pedestrians and slower cyclists that I believe people are commenting on regarding 20 MPH.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
I think if you're traveling 90 km on a daily basis then the bicycle is literally the wrong option. I bet even r/fuckcars would agree with that sentiment.
I should note that I doubt anyone disagrees with 28 MPH on roads. It's non-motorized infrastructure with pedestrians and slower cyclists that I believe people are commenting on regarding 20 MPH.
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
Then they shouldn't be trying to solve their transit issues with a bicycle.
It reminds me of something.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1ewasp8/are_batteries_not_manufactured_with_headwind_in/lixfrmd/
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1ewasp8/are_batteries_not_manufactured_with_headwind_in/lixtr1d/?context=3
thirtynation@reddit
Then they shouldn't be trying to solve their transit situation with a bicycle. They clearly need a faster vehicle such as a car, a motorcycle, a moped, all of which reasonably require licensure/insurance/registration. Or take public transport.
stormdelta@reddit
Again, 28mph is already legal for class 3 bikes.
Mopeds are significantly faster than that, and motorcycles even more so. A car is a completely different class of vehicle and an absurd comparison here.
You clearly don't live in the US if you think this is a viable option in many places.
AatonBredon@reddit
Class 3 requires that the bike NOT have a working throttle, meaning that you need to be pedaling to go anywhere. That might be viable with a torque sensor, but at that speed, a cadence sensor is likely to cause ghost pedaling which can lead to feet leaving the pedals at high speed.
stormdelta@reddit
On paper, sure, but the speed limit is what really matters here in terms of safety and enforcement.
AatonBredon@reddit
Not in terms of safety. Having your feet leave the pedals at high speed is dangerous.
Ideally, class 3 should either require torque sensors or allow throttle. And the classes should really be divided by functional purpose. Class 1 being limited pedal assist only (ideally limiting total power to the wheels) and allowed wherever regular bicycles are allowed. The goal to allow people with limited power to operate equal to an average cyclist. Class 2 allowing throttles and limited speed, but slightly limited as to where they can travel. Class 3 with higher speed being designed for non major roads but disallowed from bike paths.
Class 1 should not have a major speed limit but limited in power added to user pedaling. For class 2, 20 mph makes sense - at that speed wind resistance is significant. For class 3, 30 mph or 35 mph is a good limit. 35 mph is the top speed of street legal electric utility carts.
In terms of enforcement, there are several problems. First is that there really is no infrastructure to support enforcing e-bike laws. Second is preventing selective enforcement - NYC at one point would arrest any group of bicycle riders even without electric motors. Third is that beyond e-bikes there are often several categories of licensed motor bikes.
stormdelta@reddit
This would effectively make class 3 pointless - it feels like you want class 3 to mean moped instead of bicycle, and the result is something that is the worst of both: can't use any safer infrastructure, can't reasonably keep up with street traffic, etc.
It's also even less enforceable than the current system. A lot of these bikes, including mine, look like normal bicycles for the most part. It looks less like an ebike than many class 1 bikes. And when ridden responsibly are indistinguishable from someone on a lower power bike - we should be policing behavior and weight limits for bikes as those are way more reasonable both in terms of actual safety and ability to enforce.
I've test-ridden mine at 35mph, and you cannot reliably achieve a safe stopping distance on many ebikes capable of that speed. You need to move to more motorocycle/moped type designs for that, 28mph is a far more reasonable limit for things that actually look like bicycles.
AatonBredon@reddit
Actually, I should have stated shared bicycle/pedestrian paths as the exclusion for class 3.
Mopeds were originally supposed to be what is now filled by e-bikes. They were supposed to be usable by pedal power only and have a small motor. In 1980, NHTSA defined mopeds as “motor-driven pedal cycles with a top speed of 30 mph or less.” That sounds like a Class 3 e-bike, right?
thirtynation@reddit
Class 3 is illegal is many places in the US. Clearly you don't live here if you think it is, nevermind your ignorant opinion of the state of our public transport options.
28 mph is significantly faster than bicycles, to the point that ebikes capable of that speed are banned from bicycle infrastructure all over the country.
If one needs to go faster than a bicycle they should use a vehicle meant for going faster than a bicycle.
stormdelta@reddit
Which is mostly due to delays in ebike legislation generally.
Cars can go 100mph and yet aren't banned from city streets. I'm not going 28mph on bike paths obviously, and a lot of us live in places with limited and inconsistent cycling infrastructure.
28mph is nowhere near enough to safely ride as a vehicle, and requires vehicles that are significantly more complex, heavy, and harder to service/repair/etc. As well as exposing me to danger that I wouldn't otherwise be on something that barely even looks like an ebike.
And the goal should be to get more people away from relying on cars for everything - cars are significantly more dangerous to everyone than ebikes in the hands of equally irresponsible or distracted people.
thirtynation@reddit
Not delays. The class 3 ban is the legislation.
Cars that go 100 mph aren't banned from city streets because they require license insurance and registration to ensure people follow the laws. That's the whole problem of the 28mph ebikes that people pretend are no different than bicycles that are causing these problems, it's not just surrons. It's like you didn't even get the point of my original comment whatsoever.
I'm not holding cycling to a higher standard. You're completely misreading my comment.
stormdelta@reddit
I understand what you're saying, I just completely disagree that the point you think you're making has any validity. I would challenge you to show any data that 28mph class 3 and similar bikes are an actual problem especially compared to getting people away from cars.
Plenty of states obviously disagree with you too, or class 3 wouldn't even exist.
Most states don't have that option, and if it requires a driver's license rather than something separate, it's almost completely counterproductive.
And car-centric infrastructure means it's nearly impossible to take those licenses away when people aren't responsible except in the most extreme egregious cases.
More transit options that aren't cars helps with that substantially, and an idiot on an ebike is vastly preferable to an idiot behind a wheel.
thirtynation@reddit
You're struggling to even follow the conversation at this point lol.
I guess you're not paying attention to all of the news articles of crashes involving ebikes capable of speeds over 20 mph. Class 3 is a problem which is why it's been banned in places all over the country. In all states it's not an option to have licensure insurance and registration for cars, it's a requirement. People's licenses are revoked all the damn time for irresponsible behavior and that's after they've already had many other players of punishment that serves as deterrents to others.
Your argument is basically "Cancer is worse than flu so fuck washing hands lol"
Altruistic-Walrus-17@reddit
Agreed . I ride a e-bike that goes 18mph in NYc and that’s not slow at all because everything in the city is so packed together , but when I take my e-bike to another state like PA where everything is so spread out 18 mph feels super slow
Agitated-Country-969@reddit
Posting this here because I think it really needs to be said.
I think if you're traveling 90 km/55 miles one-way on a daily basis then the bicycle is literally the wrong option. I bet even r/fuckcars would agree with that sentiment. Even in a rural area, a car isn't the sole only option.
I'd argue this subreddit really weird because /r/bikecommuting acknowledges motorcycles have their place for certain commutes.
Like here more than one person told that person to get a motorcycle, but this subreddit seems thinks e-bikes are the solution for everything...
I should note that I doubt anyone disagrees with 28 MPH on roads. It's non-motorized infrastructure with pedestrians and slower cyclists that I believe people are commenting on regarding 20 MPH.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I think class 3 at 28mph is ideal because it is just fast enough to keep pace with cars on residential streets. Reducing the number of vehicles passing you (without going crazy speeds) can contribute to safety.
kurisu7885@reddit
I mean, I'm looking an an etrike that maxes out at 20MPH and for me that's more than enough, all the same I'm more concerned about over all range than speed, and the furthest I plan to travel is maybe 15 miles to a mall.
YakInevitable8770@reddit
Anything that wants to use a city road needs to pay license registrations and have liability insurance. It's not fair that everyone else on the road has to have these things but cyclists don't and we see them everyday ripping through stop sign, stop lights.
Also those fees help fund and keep the roads safe so you are taking full advantage of what those funds are used for without paying into it. That's not fair man then you don't belong on the road
No-Poetry-5638@reddit
For starters, I just wish every state had a mandate for helmets for E bikes and motorcycles.
TarnishedVictory@reddit
If it has a throttle, then it's a motorized vehicle and should require insurance and registration.
It might be helpful to have a short summary of what those are.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
This is an ebikes forum so most readers should be familiar with the classes:
class 1: pedal assist to 20mph (no throttle)
class 2: pedal or throttle assist to 20mph
class 3: pedal assist to 28mph
Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are not legally considered motor vehicles by most states including CA. What you state may be your desire, but it is not reality.
TarnishedVictory@reddit
And your op is your desire, but is not reality. My point was simply that if it behaves like a motor vehicle, the only difference being the power plant is electric rather than gas, it should be treated as a motor vehicle.
Try not to get all judgy and tribal on me here. I have a class 1 e-bike. Just because I don't spend a bunch of time refreshing the classes and discussing ebikes doesn't mean I'm not effected by them, nor does it mean I don't recognize how the laws need to catch up.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
No, it is not just my desire. E-bikes, as legally recognized, do not require insurance and registration in most states.
I agree that whether a motor is electric or gas powered should not mater insofar as power restrictions are concerned. It should matter from the perspective of noise restrictions on trails.
Most people are willing to concede that minor assistance levels should not cause a bicycle to be thrown into the same category as a car. There is a technical definition of motorized and a legal definition. Just as one would not consider a wheelchair with electrical assistance to be a motorized vehicle either.
TarnishedVictory@reddit
That completely depends on your definition of e bike. So yeah, it is your desire.
Nobody questioned any of that. The issue is that e bike has become fairly vague and seems to include more than your classifications, colloquially for sure.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I just gave you the legal definitions of an e-bike. Please don't waste my time asking for definitions to only turn around and ignore them.
TarnishedVictory@reddit
Definitions aren't limited to legal definitions. And different jurisdictions have different legal definitions. You don't need to be all butt hurt.
And despite that, there are plenty of people who call electric two wheeled vehicles with throttle, ebikes.
So I'm just asking for a little clarity, not a bunch of hostility.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
You can take your passive aggressive BS elsewhere. Done catering to your ignorance.
DarkVoid42@reddit
motor vehicles including motorcycles are licensed and registered and insured and built to certain safety standards. imagine if your cousin bob could take a welding torch to a pile of metal, stick 4 tires on it and put a 1000HP engine on it. then he drove around randomly on sidewalks and roads without a license, registration or insurance. thats the current state with ebikes.
so yeah those people who got injured after being run over by cars and motorcycles ? they would have their medical costs covered, the driver would be held responsible and the vehicle would be stopped and checked for roadworthiness and scrapped if frame damaged. those 104 fatalities from ebikes ? none of those would get any medical coverage, the bikes would not be inspected and scrapped if unroadworthy and chances are the ebiker would either run away or get sued personally for any damages.
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
That's an apples to oranges comparison at best.
First off. Yes you can make a motorcycle or car from scrap metal, but it would still be legally classified as a motor vehicle and need to be registered and insured. Although that is very difficult in some places to do on a DIY built vehicle. And to be legal it would have to pass emissions testing and other required vehicle inspections. If you don't do all of that. Then anywhere you drive it is illegal.
And ebikes do have legal definitions that say thing like the max allowed motor power, or how many wheels they can have. And if you go over those limits, then it is no longer an "e-bike" and thus becomes illegal.
So no. Buying or building an e-bike that does fall under the legal definition of what an e-bike is and building a DIY hot-rod are NOT the same thing. And are in fact totally different.
Second, what makes you think that just because an accident involves a car that the driver of the car is definitely going to be able to pay for for it?
Third, the same for if an accident involves an e-bike rider, why on earth would they be exempt from any responsibility just because they are on an e-bike. If that was the case, anyone who wanted to commit murder could just go run someone over on an e-bike and get away with it.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
The 104 e-bike related fatalities are almost exclusively the e-bike riders themselves. Back up and read again. Only six of those fatalities are pedestrians hit by an e-bike. Six too many but not an epidemic. And not justification for sweeping heavy-handed reform.
DarkVoid42@reddit
perhaps but ebikes are barely a small fraction of the vehicles on the road. imagine if they jumped by 10X and there were 1040 fatalities. regulation needs to be there to make some legitimate. if its not legitimate its going to get banned. because we cant have nice things.
Cynyr36@reddit
If it has a throttle that works above walking speed it should, imo. But then i disagree that a class 2 ebike is still a bicycle.
KostyaFedot@reddit
Americans might solve this by following rules in Europe. If it is ebike, no pedal assistance after 25kmph. No insurance, registration either. Or it is speed pedelec, which still requires pedaling, but it is upto 45 kmph max speed. This are registered as mopeds and insurance required.
Overall e-cycling culture is different in Europe. No e-fatbike huge monsters. Throtle is illegal.
So, ebikes in Europe aren't about speed and monstrosity.
I'm slowest person on the road with ebike. Kids on flets are faster than me. But I could go far, high with less effort.
sparktheprotogen@reddit
I agree
OppositeRun6503@reddit
How about just banning ALL motorized vehicles of any kind and return to WALKING as nature intended for human beings to do?
If this weren't a safety issue then government's the world over would license walking if they thought they could get away with it because it's not about the money, it's about controlling the population's every action.
Unfortunately in reality it IS about public safety however which necessitates that restrictions be put into place. Both of my e scooters have a maximum speed of 20mph which is perfectly fine for my needs,any faster than that would make it difficult to control especially in situations in which potential road hazards suddenly come up and believe me I've already had a few close calls traveling at even that speed caused by people suddenly pulling out of their driveway in front of me.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I don't think 99% of the population would support banning all motorized vehicles if they made a sober assessment of what that would mean to their standard of living.
I support restrictions for e-motos (high power motors capable of speeds above 30mph).
An e-bike at 20mph will definitely be safer than an e-scooter at the same speed due to the rider being able to brace the hands and feet using the seat as a pivot. Simply cannot be done on a scooter. Bikes also have better braking capability and are less prone to the rider falling off. The larger tires on a bike provide more stability over rough surfaces as well. Would even venture to say that an e-bike at 28mph is safer than an e-scooter at 20mph.
WindowsVistaWzMyIdea@reddit
Insurance available for those that want it? Yes
Mandatory insurance? No way Jose
concretecowboy316@reddit
I would love to cover my ebike cause drivers are genuinely seeming to get dumber.
Impossible-Hyena-722@reddit
There's also a chance it will be YOUR fault as well. If you hit someone and injured them, you could be on the hook for a fat lawsuit.
concretecowboy316@reddit
Oh like my uncle how got hit by an underage unlicensed and distracted (texting) female driver but just cause he was slightly pulled into the driveway he was seen at fault.
kurisu7885@reddit
Ebike insurance already exists and in cases I think it can be covered like any other bike under homeowner's insurance. Plus OP said it should be there for those who want it, just not mandatory.
stormdelta@reddit
Not just dumber, but more distracted, both by tech and horrible design trends in newer vehicles, coupled with objectively more dangerous car designs for everyone that isn't in the vehicle.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Touch screens for Infotainment are some of the worst offenders. Bring back physical buttons, knobs, etc.
concretecowboy316@reddit
Yeah some of these new cars have horrible blind spots.
theuberdan@reddit
I currently have insurance on my bike. Mostly because of theft, but also in case something else happens. I see it as a wise move that everyone should make. The key word there is should make Not be forced to.
kurisu7885@reddit
Gonna be doing the same.
fossel42@reddit
Need an age limit, 17 and up. The kids are the dangerous ones riding out of control.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Minimum age limits make sense. I think class 1 and class 2 limits can be lower. Some states specify 16+ for class 3 ebikes and no restrictions for others.
pasterios@reddit
I'm of the opinion that anyone who uses a bike on a public roadway should have to register their bike if they don't also have a vehicle that is registered. This way, when cyclists vote for bike lanes, they'll have a legitimate vote.
PlasticGlue411@reddit
I feel like if it's being used as a transportation option, registration would help pay for the infrastructure and help prevent theft by making it impossible to resell.
SnowDrifter_@reddit
I have perhaps a bit of a different view:
I think they should. Or at least... Have the option to
I'd gladly pay registration for the reduction in theft risk. (cheap) title transfers and the like would make bikes much less 'nameless' when it comes to buying/selling. Of course, it won't stop everyone. It never will. But ya won't get the litany of "just missing the charger" sale ads. I've had 2 bikes stolen over the last couple years. One was... stupid. Loan to a family member, didn't lock it, someone just rode off. The other was a sharp lesson in how easy-on-easy-off cable locks are. But in both cases, I found myself frustrated that I was reliant on third-parties for any level of ownership processing (529, bikeindex).
I left the pedal e-bike scene and got an e-moto because of insurance. Got ran over my a semi, and was only made whole after fighting with the other driver's insurance for months. They tried to leave the scene. If they did, I would have been fucked. I got lucky, in so, so, so many ways. But one of my take-aways was that if I'm riding around cars, then I need automotive-level insurance. That just doesn't exist on the e-bike scene.
Granted, I check in from time to time, I see Progressive now offers e-bike insurance. I'm sure other companies might be starting as well. I've not looked into it, just saw it as a feature listing on the site.
I think using death rates to communicate risk for the insurance is one metric, but not the end-all-be-all. I really wonder how many incidents go un-reported. I'm with you on data availability, but even the limited amount we have just isn't enough to work on in any meaningful way other than a justification to build appropriate infrastructure(bikes and pedestrians both), IMO.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Some good points, thanks for sharing. I'd prefer taking routes like inscribing ownership information, encouraging owners to record the serial number. Perhaps classified ad services could make the serial number a mandatory field.
Or letting manufacturers take the lead on anti-theft technology. The highlights of this year's Aventon refresh (Level 3, Pace 4, etc) seem to be related to anti-theft technology. Velotric is also using Find My tags across multiple models.
For a $5k or $10k bike maybe the hassle of registration would be compensated by the peace of mind that it would be more difficult for someone to steal and use. But this assumes the thieves and the would-be buyers would bother complying with any registration laws. Most likely they would not. I think it would be just another law that punishes the law abiding.
Fully support the offering of a-bike insurance through voluntary programs.
ocrohnahan@reddit
I my stupidity only affects me then the government should fuck off.
Tinu87@reddit
I am ok with the system we have in Europe, bellow 25km/h (15mph) you don't need an insurance or registrations and above you do. 25km/h is a speed you can control and close to speeds we are used to with bikes without engine.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Europe tends to be more densely packed so that speed might be appropriate there. In the US it would be painfully slow.
kurisu7885@reddit
Aren't a good amount of those fatalities from the ebike rider being hit by a large vehicle?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Correct, nearly all of the 104 fatalities are of the e-bike rider colliding with a car/proper motor vehicle.
kurisu7885@reddit
Kinda figured, especially in a country where for some reason it's always the fault of the pedestrian and bicyclists are considered such.
Moondog2010@reddit
My bike is registered with Garage529.com and insured with Sundays bike insurance. I would advise this to everyone who values their e-bikes!!! 👍🏻
Vx0w@reddit
I'm in support of no insurance and no registration for ebike, and no license. The government collects too much taxes on everything already, and insurance is just legalized robbery.
With that said, I would support age requirement and ebike education class. Parents shouldn't provide kids under 14 or 16 with ebike and let them take it out on the road unsupervised. Yes, kids will sneak out anyway, so don't get ebike and leave it unlocked at home. People need to know how to operate ebike safely, and how to follow rules of public roads. I've seen too many idiots on ebikes, and it only takes 1 idiot to screw it up for everyone, including me and my ebike.
jarliy@reddit
eBike are more dangerous than motorcycles and that's why they need a greater barrier to entry. If a 14 year old can't rip around town on a stripped-down 125cc dirtbike, they shouldn't be able to bash around bike paths on a 2000w Surron.
Rainbowrobb@reddit
I even think it’s wild that I was able to get a full motorcycle endorsement even though I took it on a 125cc scooter. Now, I would 100% take training classes if I ever rode a real bike again (was raised with dirt bikes from age 8). But it’s crazy the same license is valid for any motorcycle
timonix@reddit
In Sweden they are not..I got my license for 125cc. It's only valid for motorcycles up to 125cc or 11KW whatever's greatest.
And that's more than enough to drive 70mph.
Then there's a separate license for 50cc mopeds (4KW), one for 70KW and one for 70+KW.
Then there are the 1KW mopeds/bikes. They don't require a license, but do need insurance. You are allowed to use them on the bike paths.
And last, the 250W bikes. They don't require any license, or insurance.
And honestly. I think this is a good setup. It covers most people's needs.
Rainbowrobb@reddit
I agree. That seems like a logical system.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I'm against kids riding Surrons without license, insurance, and registration. I specifically excluded e-motos and do not consider Surrons to be e-bikes.
Didn't watch the whole video but the idea that you are safer riding at the same speed as traffic is obviously valid. I don't advocate riding e-bikes on the road any more than is absolutely necessary. Too high risk riding next to two-ton vehicles.
HojonPark4077@reddit
Uncle Sam gonna get his money. States are not gonna let e bikes off the hook when they start blurring the lines between motorcycle performance in speed and appearance. E scooters gonna get it also. Bicyclists and now e bicyclists will be jumping up and down because now they have to share the road/bike path with e scooters and faster e bikes. Nobody wants to admit the PEVs into the bicycle paths or into the streets. Kinda funny seeing the bike path people screaming about e bikes.
AdSalt9725@reddit
This is a brain dead take. Every other type of recreational vehicle requires registration and licensing so e-bikes should too. You people are absolutely delusional.
id8@reddit
All we need is existing law enforced.
Call/write/email local pols,cop shops. POLITELY (!!!) "please enforce the law, thanks".
Promote this on FB.
Resistance to assigning police to traffic will include all the standards. No money, short personnel, "more important matters", the problem is "them" etc.
All sad, but true. "i understand things are rough, thank you for your thankless efforts. But we need this.... "Quality of life, poor folks cheap transport, jobs, change in culture of place, huge growth of ebikes... making our place more livable, fun, less parking issues, less traffic." More grins and waving!
Many many reasons, all good.
Be the (very polite) squeaky wheel.
Enjoy!
seweso@reddit
Can't we do all the things? E-bikes which can go faster than 25kmh/15mph should have insurance/registration.
AND fines for texting while driving must go up. Preferably based on your income or value of the vehicle you are driving.
MeanOldFart-dcca@reddit
I'm sorry to say, to many morons are riding ebikes like idiots. My buddy had 3 kids slam in to his Tesla on an ebike he was waiting for his wife to leave for work double parked. 11k of damage.
Sure_Comfort_7031@reddit
e BIKES should not. E MOTORCYCLES should. And enforcement of which is which and using motorcycles where they shouldn’t be is the issue.
beachbum818@reddit
But e-moto's are lumped in with e-bikes. So as of right now you can't separate them
Slipstriker9@reddit
If the statistics where based on deaths per mile traveled it would he going down and not up.
Kletronus@reddit
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT? Compare to other countries too... First, car accidents are double, so are all traffic related deaths. Before ebikes the stats were horrible since most cyclists were not commuters but thrillseekers and spandex heroes.
Slipstriker9@reddit
I am talking about ebike stats going down. Also loads of people commute by bike and for decades in Europe.
1111joey1111@reddit
Whether e-bikes or e-scooters:
I personally think that a max of about 28mph is reasonable without need for license or insurance. Some people are such inept riders that they might want to stick to 19mph.
Irsu85@reddit
Yea, normal ebikes (like EU spec ebikes) are although not amazing without some basic traffic training, they are not the main problem, main problem being in my opinion illegal ebikes and bad drivers
SpyderDM@reddit
I agree that they shouldn't require insurance or registration, but they should be limited to 16+ and they should have a peddle assist limit of around 25km/h.
Neenknits@reddit
One reason to restrict e-bikes is because the teen riders are actively interfering with everyone else’s use of the bike paths. The buzz down close to people, scaring people, messing with people’s dogs, scaring kids, doing tricks are full speed, right next to people. Basically, interfering with the rest of society’s quiet enjoyment of the paths.
If teens were on regular, human powered diamond bikes, in order to go that fast, they would have the skills to control the bike. They wouldn’t be able to do tricks at those speeds. If they were riding class ones, they wouldn’t be able to do tricks at those speeds.
I’m also in favor of motorcycle licenses starting at 18, more restrictions on motorcycles in general, as well as more texting punishments, and strong drinking punishments. We can support…and do…more than one thing at a time.
Lower-Insect-3984@reddit
avoiding mandatory insurance and registration payments is like one of the best benefits of owning an electric micromobility device instead of a car
you save on gas, insurance, parking (depending on where you live), and time. why would you want to take those benefits away?
i bet initiatives like these are sponsored by automakers to get people off the bikes and back into cars
funcentric@reddit
I think the reason why ebikes are being focused on is b/c it involves kids.
spyczech@reddit
I agree. I still would prefer if all mopeds were like this as well, because they form a crucial way for those with less means to commute to work and partcipate in american society, which is so unwalkable and spaced apart, but where a car is not something everyone has or can rely upon. I think bikes and ebikes are important commuter vehicles, and mopeds are more dangerous and I get why registration etc on those can make sense in places. But ebikes and bikes in general need to hold out as unregulated in that sense, just because its in the interest of the less fortunate to have them be accesible and not regulated out of easy accesibility for the working poor
hsfguy0@reddit
I'm amazed by the amount of people that criticize someone not wanting to be in the way of traffic, and saying that 30+ was unreasonable. When I was younger, and actually in-shape, I could stay with the flow of traffic in a 45mph zone, on flat ground, for miles. Why does it seem cursed worthy for someone to want to achieve 35mph for the purpose of not slowing traffic?
pvirushunter@reddit
45 mph in traffic for miles?
Can you also beat a bear in hand to hand combat?
hsfguy0@reddit
Nope, I ride to run, not fight.
Troubleindc2@reddit
The stats of e-bike and e-scooter related deaths aren't at any acceptable level of accuracy, yet.
Emergency room visits with reasons related to the two have sky rocketed in the years since covid.
Just one anecdotal article: ucsf.edu/news/2024/07/428096/electric-scooter-and-bike-accidents-are-soaring-across-us
Ride around any dense metro area on a Friday night. Camp out at any heavily used shared-use trail in a major city. The pattern of that data tracks.
How many deaths and serious accidents haven't been accounted for since the numbers were traditionally low. We'll see much more accurate studies in the next few years. Again, due to the number of incidents climbing. If I'm wrong, we'll never see accurate stats.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I read the linked article. Found two key issues with it. The charts are not to scale across categories. It's very deceptive to show the e-bike injuries of 23k on par or higher than the bike injuries of 403k. For 2022, E-bike injuries were less than 6% of Bike injuries. The exponential rise in e-bike injuries is normal for a fledging industry just gaining adoption. Need to know the relative number of users and miles travelled compared to normal bikes before drawing any conclusions.
The article itself notes that micromobility use "surged 50-fold over the last decade". It then proceeds to highlight 30-fold and 8-fold increases in injuries (2017-2022) as alarming. No, this increase is completely expected given the increase in usage.
If you have more accurate data on fatalities, please share. One additional thought comes to mind, we should be encouraging more e-bike usage in lieu of e-scooters. E-bikes are easier to control, perform better under heavy braking, and are less prone to send riders toppling over.
AatonBredon@reddit
If micromobility usage went up 50 fold but injuries only 8 fold, that means the injuries per capita dropped 84%. In other words, micromobility became much SAFER.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Then injury increases were over a 5-year period. The 50-fold increase in usage was over a decade. It's hard to draw definitive conclusions other than they haven't justified their alarmism.
AatonBredon@reddit
Ok. Assuming a constant percent growth, 50 fold usage increase over 10 years equals a bit over 47% annually, and 7 fold in 5 years - meaning that the 8 fold increase in injuries is basically static per user mile.
That assumes usage indicates miles traveled. If usage indicates number of owners, then the increased miles per trip would mean e-bikes are getting safer per user mile. At worst a nothing burger (accidents are rising at the same rate as travel), and possibly an indication that e-bikes are safer per mile.
Basically the article is scare mongering.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Yep. Showing bikes and e-bikes using different scales was very deceptive. Plotting them together would make e-bike incidents look diminutive by comparison.
AatonBredon@reddit
I tried to find anything regarding accidents per owner, per trip or per mile, but few studies have really correlated things to produce actual meaningful statistics. Instead they used accident statistics (in other words, the entire sample was those who had accidents). So the results are worthless scientifically. And the paper referred to has only 5 citations, and I only found one paper that referred to it, which was not an actual study. This means the paper is likely not considered good enough to use as a source for future research.
The best I found was bike share company testing in urban centers, where the accident rates averaged around 200-250 per million trips (around 0.025% of trips resulted in an accident). But that is per trip in areas where short trips are typical. But that includes both e-bike and regular bike rentals, so not really useful.
There honestly is no real science on this subject.
Kletronus@reddit
Now, compare to countries that have a biking culture. Really, any European country will do. You will be surprised how bad the US numbers really are. Note, overall USA has TWICE the number of traffic related deaths and injuries, for ex compared to the Nordic that has ice and dark half the year. In all categories USA is way more dangerous to move around. But, bicycles are in their own category, because... too many are using them to feel excited, not because they are moving from A to B in the most boring and safe way possible.
Troubleindc2@reddit
We're saying the same thing. There are no accurate stats. The only thing I'll bet on being true is the number of emergency room visits related to ebikes/escooters have dramatically increased in the past few years.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
We can agree that the data should be revisited as it becomes available. But again, emergency room visits increasing dramatically for a category that has seen a dramatic increase in usage should not be unexpected. The real concern would be if it is increasing per mile ridden or per participant.
bulshoy_3@reddit
Holy shit people in an ebike subreddit pining for insurance requirements? WTF is wrong with you people?
DarkVoid42@reddit
better that than outright bans. because with illegal emotos we are on the way there.
even a euro style system would be better. ebike = no throttle would be best. anything with throttle gets confiscated and destroyed or needs mandatory licensing, registration and insurance. it works well in europe, no reason it couldnt work here.
chuckwolf@reddit
it's because the law needs to learn the actual difference between an electric bicycle and a e-moto
An Electric bicycle has pedals and a fully operational pedal assist system, with throttle being optional, no matter how many watts it's motor or motors are and no matter how fast it can potentially be Pedaled.
The only speed restriction should be the posted speed limit of the road if you are actually pedaling to reach that speed.
E-Motos and E-Mopeds on the other hand don't have pedals at all or the pedals don't engage the motor and they rely totally on the throttle to move.
DarkVoid42@reddit
well youre using an emoto sooo.....maybe you need to learn the difference ?
pvirushunter@reddit
exactly
a bike must be fully usable (and safe) without any assist
WesleyR98@reddit
I think you might be the one that needs to learn the difference. And yes you can pedal a 100lbs e-bike with a dead battery. I pedal mine all the time. That doesn’t make it an emoto just cause it’s not street legal, it’s still an e-bike legal or not.
chuckwolf@reddit
No, my bike has pedals and actually requires me to pedal it to go, it's technically a class 4 ebike
DarkVoid42@reddit
no such thing as a class 4 bike buddy.
dmonsterative@reddit
cram the boot further into your mouth
numbersthen0987431@reddit
Look, I don't want ebikes to need registration either
But far too many people in this subreddit advocate for an ebike that breaks the legal speed, and justify it using whatever bs defense they feel like mustering up. Too many people here want an ebike that "can keep up with the flow of traffic" by pushing it to 40mph, and at a certain point you are literally building a vehicle, and it has to be treated like a vehicle.
And THAT is the problem, because you can't have a form of transportation that goes as fast as a vehicle, without treating it LIKE a vehicle.
Unfortunately it's another example of "ruining it for the rest of us". IF people want to limit ebikes to their recommended speeds then let's do that, but you can't have both options.
dmonsterative@reddit
In the US context, keeping up with the flow of traffic means that a throttle equipped C2 needs to go up from 20 to either 25 or 30mph, not 40. That would suffice for most residential streets, and non-thoroughfares in commercial districts.
The lowest speed limit commonly found outside of school or construction etc. zones is 25mph.
concretecowboy316@reddit
Unfortunately I have to go down two 40-45 mph streets ony commute which is why I personally want the ability to get up to those speeds so people don't have to make dangerous passes cause I can't get over.
kaffesvart@reddit
Get a motorcycle
concretecowboy316@reddit
I have one. But parking is a pain and traffic sucks so I got an ebike for everyday work commutes.
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
How do regular bikes "keep up with traffic" they dont and they are still allowed on the road. You dont need an ebike to go 40-50 mph.
dmonsterative@reddit
We're not talking about regular bikes, and so what if they're "allowed on the road?"
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
All im saying is regular bikes did it forever now all the sudden ebikes have to keep up with traffic? If you want to keep up with traffic get a motorcycle.
dmonsterative@reddit
You're hung up on semantics. 20mph is a dangerously awkward speed to top out at, given standard traffic controls and engineering. You'd have to be a fucking olympic champion to ride a commuter bike in traffic in LA at 20mph under your own power.
And ebikes are innovative and are here to open up transportation alternatives that standard bikes don't (without turning the country into Amsterdam).
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
Again ebikes dont need to go 40-50 mph if you need that speed get something else because theres no way in hell you are pedaling to get to that speed.
dmonsterative@reddit
No, they don't need to go 40-50.
But as someone who has one and ride it in LA, 25 or 30 would be a lot safer than 20.
Whereas you're.....what? A snobby trad cyclist? A motorist?
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
Most ebikes go up to 28-30.
No im not either just when someone tries to advocate for keeping up with traffic my mind goes to surrons and emotos which i dispise.
dmonsterative@reddit
I don't give a shit about Sur-Rons.
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
Ok good for you.
numbersthen0987431@reddit
And if you want to open up alternatives, they have to be regulated.
You can't strap a motor on a bicycle and then hide behind semantics to pretend it's not a motorcycle.
dmonsterative@reddit
Law is semantics.
jamerTag@reddit
It's my understanding that in many municipalities these regulations are already in effect albeit poorly enforced.
For instance I think there are many places where having a motor with >750w continuous rating and/or top speed >28mph means that you are now riding a moped-like vehicle requiring a standard drivers license and insurance
numbersthen0987431@reddit
Right, which is what is happening here.
Jurisdictions are tired of fighting ebike riders who think they are being tricky by using an ebike that breaks the rules/laws/regulations. The enforcers are getting tired of fighting someone who claims they "didn't break the speed limit", and so they are just going to regulate everyone.
concretecowboy316@reddit
This is a very fair point. When I talk about the bike and the upgrades I'll be making to it I often explain I just need it to go faster and two streets cause being slow has almost gotten hit multiple times. But I do also tell people after I upgrade it that it will no longer be an ebike and will classify as a motorcycle. I personally recognize the difference and am aware of what I'm doing. So if I need insurance and a license to ride it id gladly do so. If there's a pathway to do it.
DarkVoid42@reddit
which boot would that be ? because i'd prefer not getting killed by the boot of an emoto rider, thanks.
dmonsterative@reddit
what makes an 'emoto' fast?
-the throttle?
or
-the motor, controller and battery?
jamerTag@reddit
Yes oh my god lol idk why people are hung up on throttle when top speed and total drive power make wayyyy more of a difference when it comes to safety
Fearless_Tomato_9437@reddit
Reddit comments are now the lowest tier of them all, I recommend finding a YouTube comment section on the issue for a balanced viewpoint lmao.
raka_defocus@reddit
even an emoto isn't comparable. I specifically bought my ebike because I love being on two wheels as long as the weather permits but there are times and places where 500+lb 600cc motorcycle isn't practical.
None of these ebikes including surron/stealth bombers are close to motorcycles. it's just a fast bicycle. A 125cc dirt bike smokes all them.
The problem is education and math. There's not a simple way to explain this lawmakers especially entrenched boomers. You have to dumb it down to a ridiculous level and show them a 1977 49cc Honda moped and explain that a super 73 doesn't go as fast.
Frequent-Control-954@reddit
Having no government costs to bikes and the freedom of not having to worry about updating tags and insurance and so on. It’s almost the whole point of having a bicycle. It’s about freedom at least to me and e-bikes take away the negative side effects of being heavier and having troubles with hills. Any regulations with e-bikes I want to see them as advisement or suggestion’s not as laws. It’s like any freedom the government can take away they try and do just that.
Starly_Storm@reddit
The current rules need to be enforced. Just today I was crossing the street and three kids on pedal-less electric dirtbikes went speeding by doing wheelies in the street. The issues most folks are having with "ebikes" are already illegal, but no one stops them.
I'm all for looking into requiring license and insurance for those types of bikes (**for street use) because it would prevent unwitting parents from buying their kid a too powerful bike. There are too many young children riding electric dirtbikes in the streets irresponsibly because their parents thought they were just getting an ebike for their kid to get to school.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Agreed. But what you describe are e-motos. Not e-bikes.
Starly_Storm@reddit
Yeah, that's why I said electric dirtbikes.
Thats my point: we can't ignore that ebikes get lumped in erroneously when the discussion about registration and insurance requirements comes up. When people complain about "ebikes" they usually are referring to e-motos because they dont know the difference. Just like the parents buying these kids e-motos to create the issue in the first place.
mityman50@reddit
If it’s erroneous, why did you just do it
Starly_Storm@reddit
I didnt, try reading a little harder.
mityman50@reddit
OP: ebikes dont need to be regulated
You: but emotos are a problem
OP: I'm not talking about emotos
You: me neither
Don't play me like that buddy. And why the harassment? Sheesh.
Starly_Storm@reddit
Lol bud I clarified that im fine with emotos getting regulated and not ebikes, but you want to insist I conflate ebikes with emotos. Again... lol bud.
mityman50@reddit
You’re missing the point. Your comment is about something tangentially related to the original post. OP pointed that out and you agreed. I’m calling out how silly it was. You can play mental gymnastics all day but it’s right there
Starly_Storm@reddit
I'm not stretched out for gymnastics, you're welcome to go at it though. I've grown out of silly internet arguments so your desire to make an argument out of semantics is boring and im not going to make it any more simple for you.
mityman50@reddit
That’s a righteous way to make a silly comment and wiggle out of discussing it. I’m fine with ending it here too, anyways.
Starly_Storm@reddit
We are one the same page, just different directions. Ebikes dont need regulations, but the emotos all the kids doing wheelies in the street are riding do. Cheers.
Starly_Storm@reddit
I'm fine with discussing it. Different types of electric vehicles are very different and some might need a sort of registration or licensing because children are riding them irresponsibly in the streets. Most children shouldnt be riding those types of bikes without supervision, let alone in the street. And those emotos are different from ebikes, yet ebikes get lumped in as the same as far as the arguments have been going. Pretty dang simple.
Starly_Storm@reddit
I put the blame on kids riding electric dirtbikes, also known as emotos. You'll notice when I referred to them as ebikes... I used quotations.
This_Definition_864@reddit
The day I can't ride my e-moped to work and around town is the day I buy the loudest motorcycle I can possibly get and spend my days making everyone wish I was quieter.
realmozzarella22@reddit
I got insurance and license for bee stings
l_reganzi@reddit
Yes, they should be insured and licensed. You hit the side of my car with your E bike because you fuck up, who’s going to pay for it?
godzillabobber@reddit
Ebike riders should be vocal about requiring licenses and insurance for electric mopeds with speeds greater than 28 mph.
We should demand that signs that prohibited motorized vehicles make it clear that that does not mean ebikes.
Strange_Sell_4426@reddit
its not about safety, its about tyranny. gotta keep the shameless money grubbing system going.
free people need no permission to travel, sez so in the Constitution.
RollingMeteors@reddit
We don’t need insurance and registration. We need to hold parents accountable/arrest the parents of the minors who violate.
Then this shit stops tomorrow.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I think parents can be indirectly held accountable by seizing e-bikes and e-motos ridden recklessly by their kids. No warnings for severe infractions (like doing wheelies down the street towards oncoming vehicles).
RollingMeteors@reddit
IMHO, ¡You best believe the kids are getting grounded by the remaining parent because The Man grounded one of their parents.
Liberally_applied@reddit
What is with all you in this sub acting like it's kids being the most irresponsible on ebikes? I've been paying close attention in three larger cities in the midwest for a couple years now (I float between them for work). I see kids on scooters acting stupid, but nearly 100% of my experience with seeing people misuse ebikes - riding on sidewalks, blasting red lights, cutting through traffic dangerously, etc - has been adults. More than a few have a cooler on the back and are obviously delivery people.
RollingMeteors@reddit
I live in one of the apexes of this shit, electric wheels in the one, two, three, four wheel variety. EUC, ice cream bike truck guy, monthly tail gate parties. Absolutely no hoodly riff raff on the regular. I'm guessing it's alll happening in the long stretched out suburbs, where you need a car to live basically and if you can't afford one you're probably just up to some no good.
Affectionate_Lie5601@reddit
All i know is DUIs should include ebikes
before they fuck it up too
stormdelta@reddit
Disagree only on the grounds that I'd rather they be riding an ebike than getting back into a car, legally or not. Because they can do a hell of a lot more damage and harm in the car.
Affectionate_Lie5601@reddit
What will happen is regardless of what anyone says, or thinks drunks only care about themselves
they will drive drunk again they will hurt someone, we can only hope it just themselves
ive seen people with 19 DUIs still driving throw the book at DRUNK DRIVERS, you don't deserve a motor if you have multi DUIs
you want to be a drunk 24/7 then walk your ass
"what will actually happen" is the drunk is going to drink regardless of, if and or buts
how do i know i come from a long family of drunks
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I think they already do. Unassisted bicyclists can already be cited for DUI.
Affectionate_Lie5601@reddit
im saying if you have DUIs you shouldn't have an ebike
it's a shit loophole
try a bike
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I guess a case can be made for this.
But wouldn't you rather have someone with abuse issues commuting to work on an e-bike than via a car? Assuming they are intent on getting there without walking, bus, or carpool.
Affectionate_Lie5601@reddit
no losing driving privileges don't mean you get something smaller and faster
it means you walk because you can't be trusted behind the wheel or to even be sober
get a bike
FailureHistorian@reddit
i don't think insurance or even registration is necessary if it's not an e-motorcycle masking as an e-bike but i would support a law stating that any person who bikes on the road be required to learn road rules, even pedal bikes, and especially minors.
i do feel like it's true that people are getting hurt on e-bikes more than on pedal bikes. i work in a hospital and i rarely see trauma cases involving pedal bikes but i do see e-bike injuries daily. i'm in a bike friendly city so we have a ton of pedal bikes around, too. thankfully the e-bike injuries are not usually devastating injuries, mostly broken bones, but a lot are minors which can affect their growth if it breaks a certain way.
Apprehensive_Log469@reddit
This is an uphill battle folks. The majority of the voting public are angry old people and lobbyists with an interest in keeping ICE vehicles the main method of transportation.
Ok_Love_1700@reddit
Anything with a throttle is a motorcycle.And should be registered as such.
Dramatic_Bluebird595@reddit
Mandatory license/registration/insurance for the eMotos posing as ebikes (SurRon's and the like) and leave the class 1-3 "real" ebikes alone (although if you could "encourage" insurance companies to make reasonably priced liability coverage available and likewise encourage makers to include brake lights and turn signals since motorists don't understand standard hand signals anymore...) the vast majority of the problem seems to be the ignoranuses in motor vehicles and on not-really-legal eMotos and making/enforcing the laws... I'm sure this will get down votes from the "if it has motor assist it must be a motorcycle" haters and the Johnny Delinquents with SurRon's but most of us just want to be able to get around without a two-ton death machine whether by just muscle power or with electric assist...
ColdPorkChop@reddit
TLDR I simply cant afford in any capacity all the red tape some people wanna add
So my story starts about a year ago when i was offered a job at my local card shop which i happily took and at the time i didnt have any means of transport other then walking or asking family for a ride both not sustainable tbh so i bought a escooter on a payment plan as i couldnt afford it outright and i wasnt able to find a ebike in time fast forward to last month and ive finally paid off the scooter and im now gonna be ordering myself a bike and aside from being able to afford such a thing by saving nothing else has changed in my ability to drive a car, get a license,get vehicle insurance or even get to the locations to do such things.
ALSO to those who suggest a motorcycle license being required that makes the whole thing worse for me personally cause that still requires a standard license in my state
davpad12@reddit
Where I live e-bikers are somewhat justifiably riding in the road WITH the cars due to the lack of bicycle infrastructure. We're not allowed on the sidewalk and there is no shoulder. That being the case I can see why they're being looked at differently than regular bicycles.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Most states do not prohibit bicycles (or e-bikes) from riding on the sidewalk. They leave it to local ordinances to dictate.
I will always put my safety above a potential fine. But I also slow down when passing pedestrians and yield the right of way. A car hitting an e-bike is far more likely to be fatal than an e-bike hitting a pedestrian. In communities with sparsely used wide sidewalks, it is asinine to direct bicycles onto the road with two-ton motor vehicles.
davpad12@reddit
In the town I live in IT IS the law. It does make sense though. It's not safe Riding on the sidewalk with people walking and car and store doors opening with people getting out in your way. I find it safer in the street with the cars.
Carbsv2@reddit
That's what it's like where I live as well.
Next to zero cycling lanes and the ones we have double as parking lanes, so in order to follow the rules which explicitly state that a cyclist should ride in a straight line and not weave in between parked cars, one must ride in the car lane on blocks where a parked car is present.
e-bikes are also explicitly banned from sidewalks (which I agree with), as are bicycles with a wheel >16".
Big-Biscotti-5490@reddit
I just purchased an ebike for an alternative to using my auto for running errands locally. Now I read that Maryland is trying to pass a bill requiring ebikes to be registered. Just a ploy to make more revenue that will be mishandled is what this.
Kgwalter@reddit
I have to admit I did not understand e-bikes until I rode one. Then I bought a class 1 mountain bike and realized it’s basically just like being in really good shape. There are times I am peddling above the 20mph assist limit, I would be doing the same speed maybe a little faster on a non e-bike. It really is e-motos ruining it. A class one is hardly different than a non e-bike and limited below a non e-bikes potential.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
It's really only faster going uphill. People blow things out of proportion.
The-Guchi@reddit
Why not just focus on ticketing the people who break the rules? My car can do almost 200 mph. It doesn't because I drive the speed limit most of the time... Pedestrian and bike paths should be limited to 20 mph, if your e-bike has pedals and it could be pedaled without the electric motor, it should be allowed on there. Users shouldn't be penalized because they have a fast bike if they're not breaking the rules.... I don't think that the e-mocycles like sirons and what have you belong on bike and walking paths.
Kletronus@reddit
USA is in another category in this, and one of the main reasons are too lax laws and then of course the sheer insanity of not having unified laws: Even EU has more unified laws and it is a union of COUNTRIES, no union of states in a federation..
When a person says this, we knw they have no fucking clue and are grasping straws on this main argument. That is IRRELEVANT. You need to compare to OTHER COUNTRIES; not between bee strings and bicyycle accidents. Go a fucking ahead, cite those numbers, if you fucking dare.
I just commented on someone who said "44mph with a bicycle is totally safe". That is the insanity that is killing people.
I told you guys that this will happen, that government is going to crack on you and hard, and will go overboard because you are so fucking stupid to thinking that speed doesn't kill, and that totally unregulated ebikes are going to be safer than cars. If i say that 15mph is a good legal speed limit that keeps safety records nice and clean, and that anything over that is KNOWINGLY increasing the risks.
How did you get over 100 upvotes when writing this kind of drivel is amazing. Oh, wait, not amazing, sad. That is the word. Maybe if those 7000 turned into white truffel's they would've been eaten. Who knows what could've happen, maybe they were all going to self combust in one massive event that was going to end the planet as we know it. God, it is great they are now dead... I can fucking make any story about what could've happen.
You do not mention ONCE what the stats are compared to cycling, you only cherrypick other kind of deaths.. that is DISHONEST. I'm fairly certain yo don't even understand why it is dishonest, you have just seen this tactic being used by grifters and scam artists: CON MEN like this kind of talk a lot. Exactly this kind, it sounds confident but when you dig just a bit deeper: all of yout "this many died" have absolutley nothing to do with insurance of ebikes, or even how US laws work compared to other countries.
Because, before ebikes, just regular bikes one and a half decade ago: USA has TWICE the number of deaths compared to Netherlands and what was it.. three times the sever injuries PER CYCLIST, because USA does not have commuters and that kind of biking culture. You got thrill seekers, putting 3kw on a bicycle and expect it to not kill them.
Your culture is what kills people by far the most. Like i said: literally the previous comment i wrote was about a dude who said that 44mph is, i quote "totally safe".
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
The only thing more satisfying than "over 100 upvotes" is triggering you and your deranged rant. The list of fatalities is to add perspective to the scale of the issue, not to suggest that there is any relationship between the causes of death. Sorry that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
I'm not profiting off of e-bikes in any manner, so by definition, I am not a "grifter".
Thank you for the entertainment. Maybe I won't block you just yet.
VoltasPigPile@reddit
Tell that to the state of Massachusetts which requires at least a standard driver's license. Also, tell the state of New Jersey which only considers class I and II to be ebikes and considers all class III to be motorcycles.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I never plan to live in either of those two states so no need for me to tell them anything.
Ok_Difficulty_3187@reddit
The issue as I see it is that only Class 1 are truly bikes. Everything else is a moped with peddles and shouldn’t be allowed in bike lanes and on paths. Also should require registration and license. Otherwise, the idiots tooling around at 28 MPH mingled with pedestrians are going to get all e-bikes banned, which would suck
Kletronus@reddit
EU speed limit for mopeds is 28mph. It is 25.5mph for ebikes. Says something... USA overall has twice the traffic related deaths and injuries, on cycling front it easily "wins" against countries that have more cyclists but still fewer total deaths.... It is bad, and that was before ebikes. Now, ebikes have brought that down simply because there are more cyclists, and even traditional cycling is growing. This brings in people who are NOT about going 40mph, getting their adrenaline from it but more commuters and other people who just don't like to drive fast, it is NOT excitement for them but either boring commuting where it is good that it is boring, to the words of Craig Tucker "boring is safe", and sightseers, those who have replaced light walk or a job with a bike or ebike. Those make the stats better, but they are still not what you want to see.
And this sub a few years ago was perfect lab experiment how people will just egg each other on, tell how fast isn't that unsafe, recommending powerful bikes because of safety and ridiculing "EU fags" who think 16kmph is ok speed limit. I told back then that regulations are going to hit much harder because of all that idiocy, and here we are.
Rainbowrobb@reddit
Wait until OP finds out that homeowners insurance 100% cares if you have a pool. Not only that, that homeowners/renters insurance with certain umbrella policies can cover your belongings even when they aren’t at your registered address.
I agree other penalties such as texting and driving should be near or on par with drinking and driving.
I don’t believe insurance and registration should be required. I don’t believe class 1 or 2 e-bikes should require any additional licensing. However, once a bike or scooter can hit 25mph under its own power AND be used on public roads, some sort of licensing should occur. This is far from a new concept, as someone who grew up on dirt roads, our ATVs WERE registered with plates and I could use them with my farmer drivers license on public roads between fields. I still had to prove at 14 that I had the knowledge of varying instances of right of way and road laws to use the equipment on the road. For the ATVs, it was for MY safety, not other people’s safety.
This is not an instance of “or” but “and”. We should be making things more safe for everyone.
Kletronus@reddit
EU laws: class 1: up to 500W, no insurance, no license, 25kmh max. Class 2: under 1000W, basic insurance, no license, 25kmh max. Class 3: over 1000W, full traffic insurance, license and registration, 45kmh speed limit.
Practically they are counted as mopeds and mopeds have 28mph speed limit. Anything that goes that fast on a road needs to be handled by a person who is TRAINED to drive on the road, knows all the necessary laws and how to drive on the road. Any license is good enough, moped, motorbike, car, truck etc.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
The point of the pool citation wasn't to suggest that they did not require insurance but that a seemingly innocuous object is responsible for far more fatalities. Homeowners are not required to pass safety courses before owning a pool although they do face other regulatory burdens like fencing.
ATVs are considerably heavier and wider than e-bikes. So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Rainbowrobb@reddit
I guess the fundamental question is “do you believe anyone operating an e-bike on public roads that is able to exceed 20mph under its own power should have to pass a knowledge test and should there be penalties for operating one under a certain age?”
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I think class 3 e-bikes should be age restricted -- perhaps 16 and up.
For class 1/2 less crucial to restrict but perhaps 12 and up.
No, I don't think we need more regulatory burdens for what are essentially bicycles that are easier to pedal. The threat posed by a bicycle on residential streets where the speed limit is 25mph isn't anywhere approaching that posed by a two-ton vehicle.
gutterspdx@reddit
If the money goes towards making better bicycle infrastructure, I can’t imagine it would be much.
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I mention motorcycles because they are a far greater cause of fatalities (about 200x) and for some reason inexperienced minors as young as 16 are allowed to ride them. That they require license, registration, and insurance doesn't negate the incredible risk.
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
If they take the exam its suppose to mean they are proficient. If they play stupid games they win stupid prizes after that and if they some how live after the accident they can be held liable and have thier license taken away.
I didnt read the whole thread till after my comment and you said you excluded e-motos and such and like others said there is no difference right now in the eyes of the government. That needs to change id encourage you to write your state rep about it. Ebikes dont need registration and insurence but emotos do.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
There is a legal distinction right now between e-bikes and e-motos. It's that too many people don't bother to make this distinction and lump everything under the category of e-bikes.
redaroodle@reddit
One pedestrian hit/killed is too many.
There is focus on the 30,000 annual motor vehicle deaths already.
If every cyclist chipped in something minimal per year, just imagine the fully dedicated cycling infrastructure that could be built…
Grumpy_Old_Coot@reddit
That would only happen if the state actually dedicated that money to cycling infrastructure. More likely than not, they would put it into the "general fund" and use it to pay for repainting fog-lines with paint that was slick when wet.
Alh840001@reddit
I don't need cycling infrastructure, roads already exist.
I need drivers that know and follow the rules of the road without regard to how many wheels they are on.
July_is_cool@reddit
Is vehicle + has motor —> is motorized vehicle. Driving motorized vehicle —> license, registration, insurance required. Only on street lanes where motorized vehicles are permitted, not including bike paths, sidewalks, pedestrian trails.
Alternative: even more chaos.
Academic_Deal7872@reddit
I have insurance as a personal preference. If you don't want it that's your choice.
CancelZestyclose258@reddit
What if you crash into someones car? Who pays if yiu dont have insurance?
Academic_Deal7872@reddit
I have insurance so that I don't have to worry about that. I suppose if neither party has insurance you both suck it up (pay your own ways), come to an agreement and stick to it or go to small claims court or something like that. Most states require insurance to have a vehicle on the road, but in the case that neither party has insurance someone's pocketbook is going to be lit.
redrightred@reddit
It really is an insurance gap right now. Probably best if it is required. If you ever chose to ride on a sidewalk you should hade insurance in case you i hire someone. But the issue is if that were to happen, your homeowners policy or umbrella would say nope not covering this is motorized. And your auto insurance would say nope this isn’t a car or a motorcycle. So the lawsuit comes out of pocket.
8bitPete@reddit
All roads users should require insurance.
PoisonMind@reddit
I'm ok with registration. It would assist with recovering stolen bikes and might discourage theft.
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree. Registration could also generate revenue to improve non-motorized infrastructure and to enforce the law on it.
RollingMeteors@reddit
¿Why wouldn’t I just drive a car if I need a license and insurance?
The only reason I ride electric is because I don’t need those two things.
Moist_Network_8222@reddit
I don't own an e-bike. I've ridden a few, and I see them all the time in my area. I'm thinking about getting one.
I agree with you. Laws have tradeoffs. If e-bikes required registration & insurance, e-bikes would probably be safer but there would also be far fewer of them. That's a bad tradeoff: most of the people who would be riding e-bikes will instead be in cars or just not taking those trips.
ArseOfValhalla@reddit
Its just one more way to tax the people.
Outrageous-Scene-160@reddit
Yes they should have insurance...
For themselves, you don't want to pay dozens thousands from your pocket. Good thing, my fire insurance covers my civil responsabilities, including while riding a bike.
For others...
That's ridiculous to still defend "no insurance" policy when you can get involved into an accident, creating one without being hurt etc... Think about others.
If it's only a matter of cost then, you wouldn't even be able to cover your hospital fees too?
The other problem is to find an honest insurance, not one that spends all their energy to find ways not to pay instead of helping us and giving a proper service we paid for
LossJolly5409@reddit
Y’all never got into street skating or street racing and it shows. Danger and doing blatantly illegal things is the entire appeal. Anyone saying otherwise is selling you something.
GrandPoobah3142@reddit
Well thought out initial argument. As typical of Redit, the responses are mostly illiterate garbabge.
You may or may not agree with the thesis (I don't) but that doesn't justify using the first anecdote that comes to mind or a "what about" argument to respond.
Scratch that - there is nothing preventing you from making an ass of yourself.
zerinsakech1@reddit
Because it's all about control. It always has been. If you can force a population to buy new cars, Gas, insurance, registration, taxes all in this car based infrastructure you created, and all of the sudden we have the ability to avoid all that? Of course you'll panic and try to shut it down with any excuse
Side note: Look at electric cars, for a long time pre-2010 it was fear mongering how they explode, are unsafe and slow. Now they're still trying to figure out how Road tax them, so clearly it's never been about our safety, but how much they can get us to spend.
Once they can charge eBikes an annual registration fee, add plates, makes us get licensed and insurance then I'm sure they'll quickly forget about accident statistics.
showmethenoods@reddit
We were due for a correction, but I agree this feels like a pretty drastic overreaction.
v1035RoadTrip@reddit
Insurance wouldn’t be a bad idea as long as its premium is reasonable like $10/year. HAHAHAHAJAHA
3dogs2nuts@reddit
disproportionate amount of regulatory interest?
seemingly, ebikers are lawless, and follow mob rules
Significant_Tie_3994@reddit
Okay, but insurers ought to be compelled to underwrite ebike insurance, and the quickest way to make sure the market does the compelling is require it for all cyclists
Elu5ive_@reddit
Seems like an Ai post with no geographic location.
CurrentSeries2737@reddit
Most of these incidents have involved illegal e bikes anyway. That should be the focus of enforcement, not e-bikes capped at 16mph.