JayEMM On Cars - The Unbelievable Business Practices of BYD
Posted by hi_im_bored13@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 53 comments
[removed]
Posted by hi_im_bored13@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 53 comments
[removed]
tvcats@reddit
I see no issue for any business doing this. I don't understand why people still believing a business say that they are welcoming any criticism in 2025.
The responsibility is with the journalist to clearly sate that it is a sponsored/advertisement and deny it if this isn't allowed.
francoposadotio@reddit
this is not true and never has been
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
legally it is true and has been for quite a while now, e.g. "creators must clearly and conspicuously disclose any “material connection.” with the FTC in the US or "ads must be “obviously identifiable.” with the ASA in the UK, and it is actively enforced
francoposadotio@reddit
yeah so no one actually does that. and even the big “journalists” handle every review with kiddie gloves lest the gravy train get cut off, been that way since before social media existed
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
They absolutely do do that - see any throttle house review of a ferrari or mclaren. even the most positive reviews from Top Gear and the like will list over some negative aspects. It is not anywhere close to the same thing as outright pay + stipulating they must get the final say on what makes the cut. There is objectively a strong legal distinction between the two where one is an advertisement and one is not.
berkerpeksag@reddit
They do that because Ferrari and McLaren don't wine and dine them.
Recoil42@reddit
I worked in the ad/marketing industry for years, all I can say is this is adorably naive. Quid-pro-quo is the practically the foundation of the entire industry, terms like access journalism exist specifically to describe how the entire moral framework you're describing is sidestepped completely, and securing favourable coverage is an absolute norm in the west.
I'm not sure how things might actually be materially different in China, but the whole notion of there being a "clear distinction between journalism and paid advertisement" in the west is pure fantasy. There's principled journalism, outright hackery, and a bajillion mottled shades of grey in-between.
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
Sure, but its not a moral framework, that doesn't change the legal distinction. Where the reviewers want to sit on that line and how much they want to pander, that's up to them. They can publish negative content if they wish, and several outlets do. If you want to solely watch journalists who wax lyrical on Porsches and AMGs, you can, but you don't have to.
They can present an analysis that may or may not be wrong without fear of a mid-six-figure lawsuit, unlike in China. And in China, clearly marking advertisements is very rarely pursued outside of a few high profile cases after significant outrage.
Its not pure fantasy at all. There is a massive difference between quid-pro-quo ferrari passes you a car, don't be too mean (and there are plenty of scathing reviews out there by reviewers who have continued to grab press cars), and "I explicitly control what makes your output and what doesn't"
In practice there is always going to be some level of under the table gray but it is still a different ball game. 37 defamation suits, 126-person watch-list, bounties up to ¥5m, you don't see that anywhere else.
The fact that I can post this thread at all is a distinction between the two
Recoil42@reddit
You gotta dig yourself out of the rote totalitarian-China fantasies. Speech being extinguished in the fashion you're suggesting is not what's being described here. It is not illegal in China to post negative reviews or to discuss the phenomenon of compromised media at all.
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
I mean its not like I am making up examples here. You can tell that to the guy who got fined for saying BYD was financially unstable, alongside the other 37 lawsuits.
Recoil42@reddit
Libel, defamation, and securities fraud are all illegal in the west and are frequently litigated. Yes, if you spread false claims about a company (or any entity, really), you can get sued and often fined. Jeremy Clarkson and the BBC were famously sued by Tesla for exactly that. The DOJ and SEC prosecute people for stock manipulation all the time.
What's most notable to me is that you're repeating narrative from an Australian Youtuber who starts off his video with "I might be arrested for saying this in China!" rhetoric and then begins reading off a print-out of an InsideEVs article which itself is simply summarizing a CarNewsChina article (a Chinese source) which was quoting BYD themselves, and which by the way, I can't link here because this subreddit bans CarNewsChina links.
All of this should be enough to make your head spin: Not only were you prohibited from discussing or linking the primary source of information, but you've filtered the news you did get through at least three layers of abstraction and a guy claiming he would be sued for reporting the thing he definitely would not be sued for, because he himself ultimately retrieved the information from a Chinese news source.
Your 'corroboration' on insolvency (which as you noted, is really just analysis on debt repayment schedules) by the way? That actually comes from a Chinese source too — GMT is Hong Kong based.
This... isn't great, to say the least. Y'all are acting like you smuggled microdots out of North Korea and barely dodged the gulag when all of this news comes straight from Chinese media and is being discussed openly over there.
Energia91@reddit
I (a foreigner living in China, about to buy a Chinese car) started to follow Chinese car review sites, forums, including major ones like Yichie.
Chinese automotive journalism is pretty unique, at least on the level of Yichie. They do thorough kinematics tests (acceleration, braking, moose tests, etc). They then take it for a 100k km road test across multiple provinces with different climatic and road conditions.
They then take apart the vehicle, strip it down to its bare components, and examine them closely. Everything from body/chassis micro-deformation to measure how the body panels and chassis hold up, to using SEMs to assess wear of tribological parts (like bushing + bearings) It's pretty insane the level of technical depth they go into, though, obviously simplified for the general audience. You don't get this level of reviews in mainstream motoring journalism in the West. This is the sort of stuff you see at research institutions or internal technical evaluations (of competitors' products). It also represents the technical acumen of automotive journalists in China vs West.
When it comes to domestic cars, Yichie is pretty ruthless against domestic brands like BYD, Li-Auto, Geely, etc. Particularly before the watershed period (2022) when Chinese cars got really good, really, fast.
I think they revealed the carbon buildup problem of the Li-Auto ONE (it has a 3 cyl range extender), due to frequent start/stop cycles. Yichie revealed this fairly early, forcing Li-Auto to address the issue quickly. Their next-gen vehicles (L6/7/8/9) benefited a lot from customer feedback, and organisations like Yichie.
Depends entirely on how you frame it, whether it's constructive or not. "The Xiaomi Su7 lacks sufficient brakepad surface area for high-speed track use. We recommend larger brake pads/or new pad material formulation" Vs "OMG Xiaomi sucks, they don't know how to design cars, Taycan copy, deathtrap, Xiaomi will go bust, bla bla"
BahnMe@reddit
At one short point many years ago, I did a couple of freelance articles and content for a popular site and channel.
The big companies flew you out, picked you up with a fancy driver, paid for a nice hotel room, and wine and dined you. Then they gave you some exclusive access to designers and engineers and photo opportunities for their latest and greatest.
It made it very hard to write something negative when you sympathized so much with them trying to create something new. You felt like part of the process of creators trying to make something people loved. They never asked for final approval though on copy, photos, nor did they ever seem like they’d threaten to sue.
But maybe that’s how it used to be, a more innocent time.
nucleartime@reddit
Modern grifting just says the unspoken parts out loud now.
Reasonable_Hippo6353@reddit
For both his Jaecoo and BYD videos he had 0 engagements/interactions with the respective brands as he rejected them at the first instance. All that was asked of him in both instances were (i) whether he would like to participate in an event; and (ii) what his rates were. The companies did not assume he did things for free, that's hardly a bribe. But he immediately took the opportunity to switch on the camera and shoot a video ranting nonstop about how unethical Chinese EV's are and making click bait titles about how these companies pay for 5 star reviews/sue influencers.
I think his videos would have had a lot more weight if he engaged them and waited until either of these brands tried to control his content/pressured him into giving favourable reviews before he made these videos; but he didn't and just made his assumptions and biases sound like facts. The thing that triggers me most is he does this all the while claiming to be the high and mighty 'journalist' that he thinks he is, when all he did in those vids were making assumptions and then spitting them out as facts, and then quoting some online articles to support his case. I guess that's how journalism is these days...
The whole he will be arrested in China or people watching his video in China will be arrested thing is laughable, he should really get over himself. Personally, I think he just hates the Chinese; the sort of racist comments his two videos generated are so blatant and he has done nothing but encourage it.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
just ask in us bad enough bro. that means that’s how they do business usually, instantly putting a mark on every review of their cars ever.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Or it's how Western media does 'reviews'.
But no, it's surely just the Chinese that are bad, right?
As we all know White people never do anything wrong.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Yes
WingerRules@reddit
You cant rely on a ton of reviewers or comments from anyone who does business in China (including movie stars who's movies appear in China) on stuff relating to Chinese government or businesses , because they know negative comments risks them or products/companies they're involved with from being banned in China.
It's imho why you hear almost no criticism from people like movie stars or people in business anymore. They dont want to get black listed like Richard Gere did for criticizing them regarding Tibet.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Got a source for that?
The whole Tibet thing is propaganda slop though, why would they be friendly to someone who uncritically regurgitates literal CIA propaganda?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program?useskin=vector
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
WingerRules@reddit
Ok person who posts in the middle of the AM from an account named "randomgenname1234" who spends his time largely in political subs claiming shit like Russia holds fair elections, anti NATO, that Germany wasn't denazified, pro china, and anti democratic countries comments.
doghairpile@reddit
In b4 byd sues OP
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
In all seriousness, and the reason I took his little "QUICK! WATCH THIS BEFORE THEIR LAWYERS!" half-clickbait nonsense out of the video, is because there is little to no precedence for that
At least in the US, there have been like three cases (one with BYD, targeting AAM, and one with Deer like 10 years ago targeting a blogger), and both were thrown out. If they do sue, its free money.
But that is the interesting bit with china, they have such a large domestic market and such tight control over it, alongside anti-slapp laws internationally and considering the streisand effect, there isn't much good out of targeting individuals internationally. I am fairly sure Jay will end up just fine.
I absolutely love some of his longer form reviews on the older cars, particularly older ferraris, as well as his european perspective on cars like the challenger, 300c, c8, etc., but I'll be honest I wasn't ever really a fan of the report bits
SerendipitouslySane@reddit
The only critique I have with your breakdown is the title. I run a Taiwanese factory with suppliers across most of Asia. It is not in the least "unbelievable" to see a Chinese company racking up supply chain debts and slave working conditions. Most Asian manufacturers use juggle payment terms, government supported funding and zombie loans (basically loans that only ever pay interest and gets extended indefinitely) to stay afloat. I spent the past five years transitioning away from those three things because COVID hit us hard and nobody thought we'd ever survive it. If the global manufacturing chain was forced to an American style of capital and currency management we'd all end up with sackcloths and typewriters.
yobo9193@reddit
I'm no fan of China, but let's not pretend that Western media is independent either, lest we not forget how it's an open secret that Porsche will punish journalists who make negative comments on their vehicles or a certain Hagerty review of the Tesla Cybertruck that regurgitated false, Tesla-written talking points.
dam_sharks_mother@reddit
This is absolutely not true.. There are other European brands who have a history of blacklisting, but not Porsche.
yobo9193@reddit
Jack Baruth (former writer for Road & Track ) would disagree with you
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Watch this guy not reply lmao
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
> And to be clear, that is not exclusive to chinese companies, especially outside of automotive, but its just the topic at hand. Tesla notably sued Top Gear for example, and he mentions their Chinese arm does much of the same as BYD.
I'm not pretending at all
yobo9193@reddit
I'm not sure we should be looking at Tesla as an example of how most car companies work with the media, since they don't even have a media team anymore; their lawsuit against Top Gear was on shaky legal ground to begin with.
>This is very obviously contrary to how it is done in the west, where there is an extremely clear distinction between journalism and paid advertisement by so-called influencers.
I consume a lot of automotive media and I've never seen a car "journalist" disclose the extent of their financial ties with automotive companies outside of "they provided us with a meal/flight/etc". The lack of independence between manufacturers and most automotive media, like legacy car magazines and YouTubers, is why any of their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt; they know not to bite the hand that feeds.
I agree that the way the Chinese companies work with the media is very transactional, but your core premise:
>But point is it is worth keeping in mind that reviews, even from western reviews for a western audience nowadays, may not be what they seem and it is good to keep an eye out for the fine line between performance and propaganda.
has always been the case. Consumer Reports is the only automotive media that can be reasonably considered as independent, since they buy all the vehicles they test.
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
I agree with you - but at the same time I think there is a distinct step between a manufacturer providing flight housing etc. and outright pay + stipulating they must get the final say on what makes the cut.
There are still plenty of negative reviews out there with press cars, even on Porsches, thats simply not possible at all with the latter situation. Throttle house Ferrari reviews are often entertaining because they relentlessly (and rightfully) shit on the infotainment, overheat the engine, depict new range rovers broken down, you are not getting that with BYD's contract.
SeeminglyUselessData@reddit
Slightly off topic, do you think Wheelsboy gives manufacturers the final cut before posting? I always wonder if he’s allowed to give his full thoughts.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
I've seen them be critical about a lot of cars, almost as though this entire thing is just sloppy propaganda....
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
https://www.wheelsboy.net/h-col-101.html Wheelsboy makes their money through consulting, research, etc., they are a subsidiary of a commercial PR firm, their second goal is to try to assist importing you a car, which you'd obviously only do if you like the car, in another state paper they said wheelsboy was "linking the Chinese automobile market with other nations"
Obviously who knows exactly what their contract is but I'd say its pretty likely manufacturers would get a good say, especially if they're the ones paying for it. There is some light criticism but its not substantial in anything
Egoist-a@reddit
This is why you should be careful when you select your sources
mulletstation@reddit
This sub glazes BYD so you know that shit works
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
this is for all the times I got shit on and down voted for poopooing Chinese cars being allowed in Canada. eat your heart out, I’m going to enjoy this
threeinacorner@reddit
Completely agree with your points. Here in Aus I do see a number of BYD reviews that are a bit "too good to be true", so it's better to rely on word-of-mouth, and so far it seems BYDs are good, but not exceptional cars, and there's nothing wrong with that.
On the other hand, some reviewers seem to have a slight negative "tint" to BYD? Like, Top Gear's review of the Dolphin Surf has the headline: "Nothing we say will stop this car selling like crazy" which (IMO) is a tiny bit aggressive, and the reviewer him doesn't really hide how much he hates the car, although the other big UK outlets are notably more positive towards this car.
I do wonder if BYD has threatened legal action to any of the big reviewers, considering some (like Top Gear) seemingly detest BYD and every car they make.
Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho@reddit
The carwow comparison of a BYD and a Tesla was weird. The Tesla scored slightly better, or tied, on basically all metric, but the BYD was deemed the winner. Still, if it was outright biased, they probably would have made the BYD look better in each of the categories before.
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I've always been a bit wary of the australian reviews as well, but in absolute fairness to them there isn't a single recorded case of undisclosed sponsorship, and in the cases there are offers, most e.g. carexpert, carsauce, etc. will let BYD pay for the trip but not compensate a review, which is par for the course in that industry. Brands everywhere will treat you incredibly well
CarExpert also skipped the BYD launch mentioned in the post for the very same reason, so that is some credibility in my books. Still, there is the element of inhumane labor and if their prices are actually sustainable, but again Jay barely touched on that and it wasn't particularly an in depth analysis.
But also in fairness, obviously if a reviewer did take sponsorship under the table, they wouldn't be bragging about it in public so it can go either way. Outside of the automotive industry – SHEIN, TikTok, Huawei, and several state sponsored accounts have done undisclosed advertisement in a similar fashion before.
acideater@reddit
It doesn't take a genius why the car would sell well. A cheap car that is decent is going to do well. Make cheaper cars. If traditional manufactures would reach price points that are close to BYD they wouldn't be able to compete, unless they were truly exceptional cars.
threeinacorner@reddit
I do agree, but I want to add that price and quality are highly tied to one another. The issue for other manufacturers now is that for the price, BYD can give more "quality" and/or features compared to them.
And it's just mostly a result of third-world labor wages (which actually is still comparable to other third world countries) and high supply chain integration.
That's why I want to see what happens when BYD starts making cars in Europe. Will they lose most of their cost advantage? Or only a bit?
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
BYD is no joke powerful to affect their Chinese car market and industry now. If they go to bankrupt, Chinese govt wouldn’t let it happen.
Some of Chinese automakers are already asking govt to stop price war because it could destroy whole Chinese car industry, not only they will go out of business. In fact, one of Chinese automakers Hozon is now in bankruptcy, as they can’t survive in price war. NIO is supposed to become next bankruptcy Chinese automaker
raginnation999@reddit
You can clearly tell that the Chinese are targeting the younger generations with this sort of strategy. Over in my market, they also invite a lot of influencers and car vloggers to their events compared to traditional automakers (still biased to inviting journalists) and are the ones courting celebrity endorsements vs them. While traditional automakers don't market their products a lot and let brand reputation and the product itself do the talking, the Chinese are heavy on advertising in social media and paying the big bucks for celebrities and influencers to tap into the younger audiences.
More traditional minded car buyers would focus more on the product and service, but the younger buyers think of car purchases like phones; they want the best tech and all the bells and whistles. This is why you see the Chinese advertise their car doing insane feats from something simple like doing a long-range challenge to driving on 3 wheels, pulling a docked boat, etc. The younger buyers want wow factor, and the Chinese know it. Then make the influencers and celebrities close to that demographic's heart spread the word, boom you have fans and sales.
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
Oh, I suppose that's alright then.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Just don’t do that in China mainland, and you probably need to be careful in Macau and HK because they’re going to share more same laws.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
There is an acceptable rate of jailing journalists. Yes.
hi_im_bored13@reddit (OP)
And on top of that rate of "yes defamation is a real thing", foreign journalists are more often hit with visa denials, etc. rather than court time (https://cpj.org/reports/2008/06/7-2/), and its not like the western world is free from this either: https://cpj.org/2020/01/greek-journalist-kostas-vaxevanis-handed-suspended/
from a cursory search I couldn't actually find any documented foreign cases of jail time for defamation in china, but I put "rarely" just to be safe, and because they do punish outside of jail time.
But regardless of the wording, Jay's statement is pretty clearly hyperbolic, though thats also just his style of writing and review in general
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Fair enough.
Kaameel@reddit
Appreciate the write up and your perspective!
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
It's 100% in the middle, some of his claims are laughably stupid
verdegrrl@reddit
Folks, a friendly reminder in advance to stick to discussion of the brand and policies surrounding it - and not devolve into politics.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics
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