Toyota Might Let Ford And GM Sell Their Cars At Toyota's Dealerships In Japan - The Autopian
Posted by TylerFortier_Photo@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 58 comments
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Recoil42@reddit
We've really gone full stupid.
SerialExperimentLean@reddit
They've imported British built Toyotas before so it wouldn't be completely unprecedented
ball__bag@reddit
I suppose but the UK models are Rhd as well so it's a bit easier then importing US built cars
7148675309@reddit
Nissan used to export Primera hatchbacks from the UK to Japan.
droiddayz@reddit
The UK built Honda Jazz was also exported to Japan
dissss0@reddit
They even had a little union jack on the C pillar.
Similar to 90s USA build Hondas - for the Japanese market they got Honda USA badging.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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aprtur@reddit
Not really, they have production capacity for certain models here that could be leveraged (for example, Lexus ES in Kentucky). They've reverse imported in the past - the Pontiac Vibe was reverse imported from NUMMI as the Toyota Voltz, and I'm not positive, but the earlier 80s NUMMI Corollas could have been reverse imported, as well. I kind of doubt it'd make much of a dent in things, but they could put it on the table as an appeasement.
Recoil42@reddit
The catch is that the Lexus ES is already made in Japan, whereas the Vibe/Voltz wasn't. Off the top of my head, the only current Toyota cars made in the US but not in Japan would be the Sequoia, Tacoma, Highlander, Sienna, and Grand Highlander. None of these cars are really suited for the Japanese market, and it's worth mentioning the Voltz was discontinued in Japan due to low sales... so as you suggest, it's just token appeasement.
KingMario05@reddit
Camry, too. They discontinued JDM sales a few years ago.
Take a wild guess why...
Pad_TyTy@reddit
Just a point for clarity, the ES production moves entirely to Japan after December. My line is shifting from ES to Camry production in January.
KingMario05@reddit
Oh, really? I'm surprised. Thought for sure the new one would come from Georgetown to dodge the tariffs.
Pad_TyTy@reddit
This decision was made before the tariffs. Toyota doesn't expect the luxury sedan market to warrant domestic production.
KingMario05@reddit
Ah. Shame, but I can't blame them. At least it's still coming here...
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Kei cars certainly are a significant portion of the market in Japan.
To act like vehicles like the Trax, Trailblazer, Escape, Bronco Sport wouldn’t have a place over there is wildly out of touch.
Larger vans like the Alphard/Veilfire or the Serena are very popular.
Corsair4@reddit
Yeah, they already tried that.
They brought the RHD Kuga over from EU in the early 10s.
Ford pulled out of Japan completely in 2016, so that was not the path to victory, clearly.
GM had the sonic and captiva for a while, and that helped them sell barely in the 4 digits. Cadillac has the XT4, which clearly isn't a rousing success in the market.
Basically the only American car that sells "well" in Japan is the Wrangler.
testthrowawayzz@reddit
All the vehicles you've listed except Trax are too wide for Japan.
From Alphard's wikipedia page, it was purposely designed to be 1.85m (72.83 inches) wide to fit the automated parking garages
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Double check your numbers as well as automated parking garage width.
I’m not playing chat gpt for a redditor today.
testthrowawayzz@reddit
I checked Wikipedia for all of them before I commented. I guess it is possible wikipedia is wrong?
Trax - 1823 mm
Trailblazer - 1810 mm (yeah that was wrong of me, compared to 1800 mm for a moment)
Escape - 1882 mm, and this is being discontinued
Bronco sport - 1887 mm
Alphard - 1850 mm
Serena - 1715 mm
Corsair4@reddit
So bear in mind that this won't impact Toyota's Japan sales at all. US manufacturers sell horribly in Japan because none of their products appeal to the local market in the slightest.
30%-40% of the japanese market is kei cars, a size classification that literally doesn't exist in the US. The smallest GM or Ford vehicles are several feet larger than the largest kei car.
Mini-MPVs like the Toyota Seinta can fit 7 in a pinch, and are rated for ~70(!) mpg in hybrid form, while being shorter than a Honda Civic.
American half ton trucks would turn much of my hometown into a 1 way street. Parking availability would be an absolute nightmare.
American manufacturers don't even try to adapt their vehicles most of the time - Ford never adapted most of their vehicles to right hand drive before they just pulled out of the market entirely.
If this ends up happening, Ford will sell low double digit Mustangs and like, 6 explorers.
aprtur@reddit
Exactly. The problem with American cars in Japan isn't that they're American, it's that they're uncompetitive and don't even want to try, with the exception of Jeep somehow doing reasonably well with RHD Wranglers, but I'd assume that's more of an Americana cash-in like the Challenger.
Astramael@reddit
Yea, Japan isn’t actually opposed to foreign vehicles, they just have be compelling. Luxury German cars are fairly common, G Wagons and Porsches and Mercedes and Land Rovers, you see them regularly. American cars almost don’t exist there.
Life_Menu_4094@reddit
They don't even have to be German. Lots of Citroens / Pugeots and Alfas running around, especially if they're compact hatchbacks. Ironically, it's probably Ford of Europe that's most suited to exporting cars to Japan - were it not for the fact that they don't make anything in that segment anymore.
aprtur@reddit
True on the French brands - although I don't recall seeing many Alfas when I was there last (winter 2024). I'll have to keep an eye out when I go again this year. Ironically, those brands are all under Stellantis. Like they have with Jeep, they actually seem to care about keeping a foot in the Japanese market.
Life_Menu_4094@reddit
I must admit my information is even more out of date than yours; it's been years since I was there last. Having said this, the 147 and GTV were reasonably popular, as I remember it. I suppose it's no coincidence that these are segments that Alfa Romeo has also long abandoned.
aprtur@reddit
While that's true with the German brands, you don't even have to go that far up-market, to be honest - A Class hatchback and GTI/R are really popular, as well, but VW and Merc have at least made the effort to make their cars RHD and tailor the options packages to the market. I can't say the same for Ford or GM, with the exception of the Corvette and Mustang, and that's just a miniscule market in Japan that's pretty much fed by importers like Yanase already.
Corsair4@reddit
Popular is... pushing it, I feel.
Volkswagen's total sales were just over 10% of what the Corolla does, on it's own.
I mean, that's not nothing. But the more upmarket German brands did better. Audi's sales were almost identical to VW, BMW was up 50% on either of them, and Mercedes sold more than Audi and VW put together.
aprtur@reddit
Right, and import brands, especially German brands, are expensive in Japan. Despite the price premium, and those customers generally spending more on a luxury nameplate, VW was still #3 of all import brands - I'd say that's reason enough to call them popular in their segment. Compare with Jeep, at ~9,000 vehicles, and other US brands in the nearly insignificant hundreds, they're quite successful for a mainline brand.
Corsair4@reddit
A closer look at the data would support your position, I think.
Volkswagen took a ~30% drop in a year. That's gotta be because they stopped importing something that was selling well, or shifted units to other markets or something.
In the not-luxury import space, they are comfortably #1 as you say. All things considered, that's a respectable position to be in.
aprtur@reddit
That's a good question on the drop in sales - although the yen taking a big hit last year might have just worried some customers on import purchases, I'm not sure. Seems like the bread and butter products are all still there - Polo/Golf, Touran, and T-Roc/T-Cross/Tiguan.
Corsair4@reddit
Yeah, I forgot Jeep was still around. They do alright, I guess. I mean, they certainly put more effort into JDM than Ford or GM ever did, and their numbers are much better than Ford's or GM's ever were.
It's gotta be like, 70% Wranglers though.
aprtur@reddit
100% agree with the Wrangler assessment - I saw an absurd number of them near Enoshima last year 😂.
hnwy@reddit
They can “impose“ a negative 50% tariff on American cars and I still wouldn’t buy them here, with the exception of maybe a Corvette.
7148675309@reddit
That makes no sense on the RHD comment as all their European cars are built in RHD.
Corsair4@reddit
I'm getting my eras of Ford Japan mixed up.
They had been importing cars into Japan since like, the 80s I think. From the 80s to mid-late 00s, they were mostly LHD drive models that sold terribly because they were terrible.
In the early 10s, they actually started bringing over Ford Europe models, some of which WERE RHD. Namely the Kuga and the Focus at first. The Mustang and Explorer were still LHD. They brought over the RHD Fiesta as well, maybe 2 years before they shuttered the Japan operations in general.
For the majority of Ford Japan's existence, it was mostly LHD drive cars that were poorly suited to the local market anyway. Credit where credit is due, they brought over RHD vehicles at the very end, but at that point, you've got decades of less than favourable perception behind you, and to be frank - the compact vehicles they brought over didn't really distinguish themselves against local offerings.
Why would anyone buy a Fiesta or a Focus when you can get a better supported competitor from a domestic brand? I don't believe they offered anything as a hybrid so you are immediately losing out on running costs. Dealer networks and parts availability would be bad - auto insurance would likely be worse.
And on the larger end of things, who in god's name is going to get a LHD Explorer when you have the various JDM SUVs available? More people than Ford's noncompetitive compacts, sure. But not enough to sustain the business.
So fair enough, towards the end of Ford Japan's time, they DID bring over the RHD compacts, but at that point, they just weren't competitive with what Toyota or Honda or whoever else was putting out domestically.
Euro manufacturers have carved a niche for themselves - It's a small market, but it's certainly there. Jeep exists basically because the Wrangler does well enough. Ford just never justified it's own existence in the country.
7148675309@reddit
The Mk2 Explorer (1996ish to 2001ish) was built in RHD - as it was sold in the UK. Some cars you can specify when you order them if you want LHD and RHD - and on some cars LHD is prestigious - but I doubt an Explorer would fall into that category!
Reality is in Japan - unless it is something special it isn’t selling in any numbers. Of course - you see a lot of “normal” European cars in the UK that have been exported from Japan (Golfs, Passats etc) so presumably those sold in decent numbers.
This reminds me of when GM tried to sell the Chevy Blazer in the UK in the mid 90s - perhaps they saw the (relative….) success of the Jeep Cherokee. except it was LHD and petrol only - and in the UK no one is buying a LHD car unless it is extremely special.
Corsair4@reddit
Was anything Ford ever offered in Japan going to be prestigious? I know some Mustangs trickled in every now and again, but even that's a bit of a stretch TBH.
Volkswagen is still around. They're doing 4-8x what Ford did just before they pulled out, which is respectable. Audi, BMW and Merc are all selling multiple times what Ford ever did.
They'll never pull domestic numbers in any market segment, since the pinnacle of luxury in Japan isn't a Rolls or anything, it's a Toyota Century. But the euro groups have shown that they CAN carve out a market in Japan.
Demonicjapsel@reddit
GM should design and build a Kei car, just to see how it looks . Call it the Chevy Imp
ALOIsFasterThanYou@reddit
GM could likely tap into their joint venture with SAIC and Wuling to offer their mini EVs in Japan, rebadged as Chevys—it’s what they’re already doing in Brazil. They probably would still be too large to qualify as kei cars, however.
We’ll be able to find out in a short while whether Japanese customers will embrace Chinese EVs; BYD is already selling cars there, and Geely’s Zeekr is about to enter the market as well.
six_six@reddit
Ford still makes small cars.
https://www.ford.co.uk/cars
Corsair4@reddit
Yeah, that's not small, by Japanese standards. At 4.2 meters, the smallest vehicle there is still almost a meter longer than the kei car classification.
People really don't grasp how small kei cars are, or how large that market is in Japan. Companies like Suzuki and Daihatsu sell only kei cars.
Besides that, Ford Japan almost intentionally tanked itself with absolutely stupid strategies. Right before they pulled out of Japan entirely because of poor sales, their best selling vehicle was a wrong hand drive Explorer. How thick did their product managers have to be to think THAT was a good idea in Japan of all places?
Ford's small cars aren't really competitive with JDM small cars, and they weren't cheap enough or available enough to make people deal with the inconvenience, and they aren't nice enough for people to prefer them over german brands on the higher end.
Syndicate909@reddit
Really the only cars that i can see selling any unites in Japan are the Bronco, Bronco Sport, CT5, Corvette, Mustang, Wrangler, and the Maverick. Basically just enthusiast cars.
aprtur@reddit
You could probably get some of the more wild stuff like the Raptor trucks, also, in more remote areas and in low volumes. I know a handful of guys who work for shops that build pre-runners over there, and they currently just import trucks from Hawaii.
turb0_encapsulator@reddit
lol. they will sell zero. Too big and thirsty for Japan.
Advanced-Injury-7186@reddit
Didn't GM do this in the 90s?
ALOIsFasterThanYou@reddit
Yes, with the Toyota Cavalier. It didn’t work out because the Cavalier didn’t appeal to Japanese customers. History, it seems, is a flat circle.
KingMario05@reddit
Damn, Japan really wants these tariffs gone, huh?
Taanistat@reddit
This has been tried before. It didn't work. In the 90s Toyota was importing Chevy Cavaliers to sell in Japanese dealerships with a simple badge swap, and they only sold 36k cars in 6 model years, 1995-2000. It was part of the same deal with GM that saw Corollas being marketed as the Geo Prizm.
So maybe this works out for Japan as a whole and American consumers, but it won't work out well for Ford and GM.
KingMario05@reddit
I don't think this is meant to make money, honestly. Japan just wants the tariffs gone, and is willing to use every carrot it has to play before breaking out the stick and prepping for a trade war.
varezhka11@reddit
Toyota even went as far as fully disassembling and reassembling these imported Cavaliers to weed out the high defect rates of GM built cars. And a huge marketing push with star studded TV ad spots and whatnot. It was a super high cost venture for Toyota at the time. It sold some units initially because they priced the car as a loss leader but soon the bad word of mouth caught up. Bad times for Toyota.
Same thing for Honda’s Jeep imports and Mazda’s Ford imports.
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
Sick, now all we need to do is get Stellantis on board so we can get another Dodge Michigan
aprtur@reddit
Stellantis never abandoned the market like the other two of the big three - Jeep sells their lineup in Japan, all in RHD, at their own dealers, for example.
Yotsubato@reddit
Dodge used to sell Mitsubishi vehicles under the dodge badge back in the early 90s.
The Mitsubishi 3000GT was sold as the dodge stealth
SeljD_SLO@reddit
And now Mitsubishi is selling two Renult models under their badge
beermaker@reddit
Chrysler had 15% ownership of Mitsubishi.
aprtur@reddit
Those were joint ventures, that's completely different. The proposal here is to give American brands a sales outlet, when all but Stellantis has abandoned their dealers in Japan.
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