Why do comfort purposed cars of today objectively ride harsher than comfort purposed cars of 20+ years ago?
Posted by SportsGamesScience@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 377 comments
I got to ride in a 28 year old W140 S Class last week.
My god. Does it, destroy at least today's S Class's, and 7 Series's, with their air suspensions and anti-bodyrolls and GPS-aided gear changes and road-surface cameras... in plushness and smoothness.
The 7 Series and S Class are the only 2 'flagship' models I've driven produced in the last 5 years. I have not had the privilege of being driven in a Rolls Royce or Lexus LS... but what the hell?!
How... does a 30 year old car... provide more softness, smoothness, comfort, peace and lack of distubance... than comfort-purposed cars made in the last 5 years?
In terms of engine smoothness and road harshness. Cars today are so harsh. Make your hips and back sore after every ride.
Even my 20 year old Bora feels smoother, softer and tankier than my parents' BMW 640i GT with its B58 engine, Air Suspension and ZF8. Whats happening.
Virtual_Shadow@reddit
bora mentioned !!! i learnt to work on cars with my old one, it was a lemon but it did what i needed it to do. vr6, manual, awd, lovely combo!
a contributor is wheel size. bigger wheels and smaller tyres will make a ride harsher because air won’t absorb the small impacts. 19s on low profiles will feel like shit compared to 16s with a meaty tyre.
armouredxerxes@reddit
I suspect part of it is the obsession with giant alloys nowadaysmy rover has 15 inch alloys with 205/65 tyres and it's very comfortable. My ZT 260 has 18 inch alloys with 225/45 tyres and it's definitely harsher though the sportier suspension probably plays a role in that.
orthopod@reddit
Tire profile mainly. Very, very few drivers are able and are going to push their cars hard enough to notice any tire roll on tires that have a 50 profile, and so most would be absolutely fine with a 75 profile
BTTWchungus@reddit
75 is excessive. 60 is pretty decent imo
devereux619@reddit
I agree my 17 Escape came with 20" low profile tires and the ride was terrible. I switched over to 16" thicker tires and it's so much better. Plus not having to worry about pot holes as much up in NY
SportsGamesScience@reddit (OP)
I see... the wheels and tyres... wheels used to be smaller, tyres used to be fatter.
I dunno about size and weight though because the W140 S500 is 200-300kg (450-650lbs) heavier than the W222 S500.
newtonreddits@reddit
I remember 20 years ago my dad's W220 had 16" wheels lol. Looked ridiculously small
armouredxerxes@reddit
Looking at the 5 series for example, an E39 2.0i is 1600KG, while a G60 2.0i is 1725KG. It's also quite a bit larger in every dimension.
GeneralCommand4459@reddit
The 75 was one of the plushest cars I ever had the pleasure of driving. I've driven plenty of Mercs and Beemers but that car just had a stately way about it. HighPeakAutos recently did a review of it on YouTube and while they initially didn't expect to like it they changed their tune by the end.
Extesht@reddit
Now I'm trying to picture replacing the 17" wheels on my Kona with like 15" wheels, or even more comically, 14s.
Reiszecke@reddit
Some good responses here but one big one is missing: Car Magazines and their reviewers.
There are a few videos on this. Basically all manufacturers try to please car journalists because these are the people that get the word spread when a new model comes around. However, car journalists have this weird focus on “sportiness” even when it’s about cars that don’t require sportiness.
A salesman driving a VW Passat doesn’t need a car that’s built for cornering. But journos will test the cars (and put a lot of emphasis) on just that. This is why the manufacturers now make their cars WAY stiffer than they need to be. You could argue some parts of this improve safety but if you approach corners too quickly in a family sedan’s base trim then the problem isn’t the car, it’s the driver.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
This is the essence of James May's argument that the obsession with testing on the Nurburgring is ruining passenger cars.
alexdas77@reddit
It’s ruining every car. Even sports cars having extremely long 1st gear to get a better 0-100 time on paper.
Ftpini@reddit
I love the crazy long first gear. Who doesn’t like getting up to the 45mph speed limit in first gear?
I mean sure the car could feel peppier in first gear, but it isn’t necessary and the longer gears make commuting in stop and go traffic far simpler.
p_rex@reddit
I agree that it’s often more pleasant, but at the cost of limiting off-the-line scoot, which you sometimes want to get ahead of others from a light. In a more powerful car where traction’s a serious problem in a short first gear, then yes, maybe go taller.
Used to be Mercedes-Benz’s solution for its automatics was to start in a tall, lazy second gear by default, with a short first gear available if you stomped on it, or manually selected it. People love to complain about this, but I liked it fine. It makes sense for a plush autobahn cruiser.
BTTWchungus@reddit
> Used to be Mercedes-Benz’s solution for its automatics was to start in a tall, lazy second gear by default, with a short first gear available if you stomped on it, or manually selected it.
I wish Honda took notes on this - fucking kills me every time accelerating from a stop, shifting 1-2 at 10mph just trying to cruise
Ftpini@reddit
Your car is about 2850 lbs with 228 hp. That works out to about 12.5 lbs per HP. My car is about 4200 lbs with 486 hp. That works out to about 8.6 lbs per HP.
I completely agree that it just isn’t enough power for a super long first gear. It would be really frustrating. That said I bought my car to cruise in it. Having just left a Model 3 Performance, I just have zero interest in speed. A comfortable cruiser was my primary interest. What better than a 6 speed convertible with a 5 liter V8?
p_rex@reddit
I have a lot of seat time in a 2012 GT. Not as powerful as yours, but not too far removed either. The motor was a peach, lusty and powerful, but it wasn’t a low-rpm torque monster like the V8 Camaros I’ve driven. I felt the gearing on the six-speed auto was about right, but second gear start by default would have made for more civilized takeoffs.
Ftpini@reddit
Yeah my 2014 GT had a 4.10 gear kit. Went a long way to fixing that first gear, but I was still only using first gear to launch around town to the 45mph speed limit.
BTTWchungus@reddit
A long gear would help higher-HP cars like the Hellcat actually achieve their 0-60 times in the real world.
patx35@reddit
It's great when the engine is making gobs of torque. It's absolutely awful when the engine is a NA 4 popper and won't start scooting until 20 MPH.
Ch4rlie_G@reddit
Yeah my Audi A8 from 2006 has a 4.2L v8 with tall gearing, and it doesn’t have the giant wheel option. It’s nothing but butter smooth comfort. The ultimate freeway cruiser.
Ftpini@reddit
Absolutely!
Bonerchill@reddit
Don't ask people who buy fun cars to compromise for your commute.
Compromising fun cars to try and accommodate all buyers to ensure as large a buyer pool as possible has ruined fun cars.
Ftpini@reddit
That’s your opinion. I buy fun cars and enjoy that sort of thing. You don’t speak for all enthusiasts.
jawknee530i@reddit
My favorite thing about my Miata is that I can shift through first and second gear in the city without flying through the speed limit. Rowing the gears is the fun part imo not squeezing every inch of performance out of a car.
Ftpini@reddit
I had a 2002 Miata. I enjoyed it a lot. But I never cared for being at 3500 rpm in top gear at 70 mph. lol
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
Uh, 45? My vipers first gear is 63mph.
Many sports cars have had tall first gears due to the gas guzzler tax. This has been going on for decades. You might like it but many don't.
AmazonPuncher@reddit
I owned my gallardo for only 4 months because I hated the long first gear so much. It was a useless car. I had paid extra for a 6-speed that I got to shift once, maybe twice before I was doing double the speed limit.
Yeah its great for a daily driver, but putting long gearing in sports cars is silliness.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Hell no. Nothing ruins a car like having to shift every 15mph increment. I like controlling what gear I'm in, not the act of constantly shifting.
Biscoo@reddit
Kinda sounds like you just don't like changing gear, short ratio small turbocharged hot hatchbacks are a riot and you have to change gear a lot.
FentmaxxerActual@reddit
I'd rather not be turning 3000 rpm at 80 mph but thanks lol
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
No, I like to have mechanical control over my car, but shifting gears just for the sake of shifting is a bad design if it's not absolutely necessary. Being forced to shift into 2nd in parking lots because you'd otherwise be in the upper half of your range going only like 10-15mph is not a good thing.
Leandros99@reddit
My 1980s Benz truck has a 1st gear that goes from 1 kph to 7 kph.
I just skip it and use 2nd.
Euphoric-Poem4315@reddit
I get the sentiment, but a long first gear is actually kind of nice. especially in sport cars you’re typically traction limited in the first gear, so there is really no reason to have it short.
ivan510@reddit
I see it all the time in nearly every car review, in the 11th generation accord every reviewer bagged on how it wasnt as sporty as 2.0t Sport. Even when its an SUV like the 4Runner they talked about its handling and 0-60 being slow.
For car journalist/reviewers, if its a sedan/coupe it needs to be sporty, have high power, and tight steering. For SUV/Trucks it need to be able to go off roading and be capable of overlanding.
I know people love Car Trottle but they are easily most guilty of this.
ducky21@reddit
Yeah, I love my car but it's so fucking stupid. I bought it because I knew that in 2038 it's going to be a car on dumbass Cyber TikTok or whatever about "DID YOU KNOW HONDA ONCE MADE A MANUAL TYPE R ACCORD"
railbeast@reddit
It's the customers too. People out here buying M editions of whatever bloated mom tank they can just to feel young again
Reiszecke@reddit
There is nothing wrong with offering a sport trim and a non-sporty base/comfort trim. The issue is at what I said what people expect from the base trim
railbeast@reddit
I was addressing:
The focus on sportiness isn't exclusive to car journalists. People buying cars want "sporty" cars even if the cars themselves aren't sporty and will never be "sporty."
In fact, I will argue the most elitist viewpoint which is that the last true sportscar you could buy was probably a Lotus Elise or Evora (maybe Alfa 4C), shitty AC, uncomfortable as fuck on public roads, 2 seats, laughable space, but who wants those compromises?
People want to feel like they're driving a car with no compromises and the vast majority of people would love some badges confirming that they got the amazing sporty car that can do it all even if the car itself is a mammoth.
But sportscars are about compromise. So here we are.
Nomad624@reddit
What's funny is that the lateral grip of most cars hasn't actually gone up, which means that at least objectively the average car hasn't gotten better in the past decade or so. Lateral grip matters alot more than feel in a non-performance car imho.
Ran4@reddit
Arguably most cars drive better by being stiffer though. Bounciness isn't nice most of the time.
renesys@reddit
Only to an extent, then it degrades performance. Lowered cars need it to not bottom out, but lowered cars aren't necessarily higher performing either.
Ran4@reddit
Yeah but most consumer cars aren't even near that.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Yes or they have no idea the purpose of why certian things are chosen for certian cars.
I remember a few going on and on complaining about hard plastics in the new bronco...down low...where your feet are....like no shit sherlock i want easy to clean stain proof scratch resistant materials when my muddy wet sandy feet get in.
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
I’d go further and say it’s sporty feel and not actual performance. Giant wheels don’t help performance, and you don’t need overly stiff suspension. BMW convinced everyone that stiff = performance back when they were trying to differentiate themselves from Mercedes. Same with the sausage steering wheels. No track wheel is that thick.
greeneggsnam@reddit
This is completely backwards. If you read the reports of reviewers that are respected within the industry you'll see endless complaints about ride quality. Even the consumer-focused reviewers from more mainstream car magazines are almost always level-headed about ride quality, at least in the UK where we have a high-quality motoring press.
The issue is partly caused by wheels and tyres as other commenters have said, but this is just a symptom really of the issue which is actually focus groups and customer feedback.
I was a reporter for many years and have talked to all kinds of people in the industry about this issue, from engineers to CEOs. The consistent factor across the industry was that customers like hard-riding cars.
People who don't drive a lot of different cars often consider sporty handling to be the same thing as a hard ride, and of course they want cars to look agressive (see recent comments from the Alpine boss about the A110 looking too cute and that customers didn't want that). This means big wheels, which journalists have been saying 'ruin the ride quality' for decades - it's not like car makers don't know this.
Look at cars that are aimed at real enthusiasts like the Porsche 911 or even the A110, they allow their engineers to give the cars the expensive parts needed to deliver good handling but with good ride quality as well.
As for luxury cars like the OP mentioned, I don't fully agree. A 1992 S-Class has far more noise in the cabin and worse body control over high-speed bumps than the modern 7 Series, for example. The modern car is far more comfortable even if the ride is slightly worse on a shit road.
CashKeyboard@reddit
I think you’re both right it’s just that the average joe (and that includes S class drivers) doesn’t care a lot about "reviewers that are respected". Hell, even I, with a at least a bit of interest in cars don't really know who's a respected journalist and who isn't. I just Google and YouTube like everyone else and everything you see there definitely always seemingly needs to point out the sportiness factor of whatever it is they are testing.
greeneggsnam@reddit
The industry is in a bit of a pickle right now for those reasons. The old magazines that used to be the only place to get reviews are falling right beside YouTubers and influencers. The problem isn't that all the new reviewers are paid off/uninformed/rubbish in some other way, it's the opposite - many of them are just as good at assessing cars and reviewing them. The problem is that it's no longer obvious to the layman who is who, but that's really a different question to "why cars ride badly now"!
But as to your point about "sportiness" I think you need to think about the context of who you are watching/reading. Evo magazine or any enthusiast YouTuber - which is pretty much all of them as you need to love cars to make self-funded content - will look at how the car drives in that setting because that's what they look for in a car. If you want to see what reviewers who have a more general audience in mind you need to seek that out, and it mainly comes from big, well-known outlets with very dull reviews covering fuel economy and legroom (which will never appear in the top results on YouTube because, well, it's boring).
billythygoat@reddit
I just want the softest most fuel efficient drive. Don’t care how the tires or wheels look ever outside of being easily cleanable with 5 spokes.
Pinecone@reddit
Everything you said depends entirely on the belief that car reviews influence sales. They don't. Decades of car magazine articles shows they are not correlated at all. They take their feedback on how things may be improved but not all the time.
Also, many of them complain all the time when a car is too stiff. Like the BMW M8 GC.
learner888@reddit
this.
but lets not shift the blame to the journos. They have sport bias, but they're essentially paid promoters, paid by carmakers.
If carmakers wanted reviewer to do it differently, they could achieve that.
No, legacy carmakers are essentially cartel. Their goal is increase complexity to push the prices up. Journos serve them with their approved bias. And gullible consumers are easily brainwashed
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's at least partially because changing consumer tastes require designers to put massive wheels and low profile tyres on everything.
There is no good reason for an S Class to be running on 255/40 R20 Tyres.
ProjectZeus4000@reddit
Added to customer preferences for large wheels, power and weight of today's cars combined with brake fade tests that no normal person is ever going to encounter in day to day driving any more they usually involve flooring it then stopping a certain amount of times mean you have to fit at least a reasonably big wheel to fit the brake disc
testthrowawayzz@reddit
anecdote - I just saw a Lamborghini today with those extremely large OEM wheels with low profile tires, and the brake disc gap is so huge it can fit a smaller wheel with no issues.
zen_tm@reddit
Rear brakes are smaller, was it the rears?
testthrowawayzz@reddit
I don't remember that, but it could be. Thanks for the tip. Then again it's a Urus SUV (checked the official website just now), which may not be a "real" lambo to some enthusiasts.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
Funny because the Urus has one of the largest brake discs of any production vehicle.
AaronPossum@reddit
Mechanically it's an Audi.
SloopKid@reddit
I thought it was a rebodied rsq8 with a little extra HP
BigOldButt99@reddit
It is
Whitey90@reddit
Yet they want to call it a Lamborghini because they let the wheels touch the floor in Italy lmao
AaronPossum@reddit
To be fair, the body is an Italian design, it's a re-skinned Audi but that's what Lamborghini has been for a while now.
PEEWUN@reddit
Not really, no.
Remember, the Gallardo came out before the R8. Urus aside, Audi leveraged the exciting parts from Lamborghini, not the other way around.
BigOldButt99@reddit
Lamborghini: Made* in Italy.
*Breathed on by an italian once
_Age_Sex_Location_@reddit
It's basically the Audi SUV for California Kardashian folk.
JustThall@reddit
Nice try, Touareg
r0bman99@reddit
Don't pretend like it's not a gussie'd up Audi q7...
AncefAbuser@reddit
Its not a Lamborghini.
Its a RSQ8.
Its not even the best version of it.
The Porsche Cayenne is.
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
Curious what you think of the Huracan - is that a Lamborghini or an R8?
AncefAbuser@reddit
Its an R8.
If you're a badge whore, then that bothers you. Judging by your history, you're new money. So of course the badge matters the most to you.
CheckFun1@reddit
He has a post talking family offices that’s definitely not new money lol. That’s a nepo baby 100%
_Age_Sex_Location_@reddit
I mean, I feel like lately, maybe going back to Covid, a not insignificant percentage of this sub is a mix of crypto/GME millionaires and streamer/influencer/OnlyFans money. There's a ton of money floating around in here with a noticeable decline in appreciation of of automotive design, heritage, culture, history, etc, etc. It's muchkre vain than it used to be.
CheckFun1@reddit
Oh ya 100%. There’s so many 20-something rich kids with more money than sense now. Maybe the guy I’m talking about knows nothing about cars but it definitely doesn’t seem like he’s new to money.
I stalked his profile and he said he’s in quant finance and his whole family is in finance and real estate so that checks out lol. Nepo baby detected 🚨🚨🚨
frost-bite999@reddit
“judging by your history, you’re new money”
lol one of the cringiest lines i’ve read on this site
lonesomecrowdedDET@reddit
It checks out sir.
JALbert@reddit
Glass house much?
AncefAbuser@reddit
None of my cars are upbadged from another brand, and I don't pretend they aren't anything more than what they are.
I certainly wouldn't be offended if I owned a Lambro and someone told me it was a VAG. Like, yup. No lies were told. Is that supposed to be upsetting?
JALbert@reddit
You post about your Birkin and other people's watches and call someone else badge conscious new money 😂
unatleticodemadrid@reddit
I simply asked a question and you read into things that simply aren’t there or true. Go take a breather.
Zhombe@reddit
The Audi Q8 the Urus is birthed from had at launch the largest wheels and tires Audi had ever fitted to a car.
Tires had special foam inserts glued to the interior tread backside to reduce road noise and make it impossible to patch as well.
And now the Audi RS Q8 has 295/35 R23 tires. Unobtanium prices of course in rubber and no comfort options in that size.
BulaBulangiu@reddit
My little electric Volvo has 350mm front rotors, I was expecting much more on an Urus / Q8 / fancy Touareg.
Zhombe@reddit
Well you can pay Audi 25k for the carbon ceramic brake package. Wouldn’t want you able to buy pedestrian 390mm sport disks from brembo for $200 a piece or anything!
BigOldButt99@reddit
The CC rotors on a Urus are bigger than the WHEELS on my e36 m3!
audiofankk@reddit
It's an Audi, aka VW. https://www.reddit.com/ln6rj20?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
GTFOHY@reddit
It better have large brake discs, considering its weight and horsepower
orthopod@reddit
Brake fade is fairly rare in non competitive driving with discs. Smaller discs will stop the car just fine. Larger discs just reduce the capacity of fading.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Consider the fact that a 911 GT3R WEC GT3 car, like the cars Manthey that were pounding around Le Mans last weekend, wears 18" wheels.
They also use regular steel brakes, not carbon ceramics, for what that's worth.
brucecaboose@reddit
Not a valid comparison. Race and track cars run brake fluid that tolerates higher temps, race pads that are made with compounds that withstand way more heat but eat pads and dusts and squeal like crazy (and sometimes aren’t even road legal due to the materials), and massive amounts of brake cooling. Not to mention the extra pad thickness that require wheels with a lot of clearance around the extra large calipers and makes packaging more difficult.
Porencephaly@reddit
Also composite brakes are prohibited in that class, otherwise they would all run carbon-carbon or something similar.
carpenj@reddit
The WEC GT3 cars also make less power than their production counterparts though. This doesn't mean the 18" wheels and steel brakes are faster, it probably just means that's what they're required to run in their rules for the series.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The 18" wheels are a WEC regulation, but the point I'm making is that you don't need massive brake discs to stop a Golf repeatedly without brake fade. I even question whether the massive brakes you see on many cars are strictly necessary or whether it's just an arms race to make a car look better on a spec sheet and in photos - after all, if you're still using steel discs, increasing the diameter and fitting larger calipers also increases unsprung mass.
Even the Gordon Murray T.50 runs 19" wheels on the front and 20" wheels at the rear, and that's pretty much a money-no-object hypercar. The idea that a Volkswagen Tiguan R needs to run 21" wheels to accommodate bigger brakes is a bit silly.
Porencephaly@reddit
The brakes on an SUV have to dissipate like 4x as much energy as the brakes on a featherweight t50.
SNRatio@reddit
It's the photos. Wheels have effectively become jewelry for cars. Fill the gap, paint the calipers red, etc.
Agreeable_Rain_1764@reddit
Perhaps not a golf but heavy luxury cars may actually need the brakes. The Model S plaid is an extreme example. That car was criticized because it had undersized brakes for the size and weight of the car. A dedicated race car is much lighter, has large cooling ducts that wouldn’t fit in a production car, and runs race compound pads that squeal like mad at low temperatures.
kittysniper101@reddit
It’s not so much the size and weight of the car, it’s the power. Kinetic energy (and thus the heat energy your brakes have to deal with) increases with the square of speed. Couple that with the power also decreasing the time it takes to reach that speed (less cooling time) and you have a real problem.
I used to work on brakes for an OEM.
twinturbos@reddit
Well, a Tiguan R.is much heavier than a t.50 , so it probably does need pretty large brakes.
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
It's also weight dependent, im pretty sure a 2500lb race car takes less to stop than a 5000lb SUV
Material-Indication1@reddit
Damn right.
The oversized wheels with the undersized sidewalls thing is ridiculous.
FiddlerOnThePotato@reddit
Currently thinking of downsizing my 18s on my GTI to 17s for all these reasons noted. My wife has a Golf with 16s and the ride quality is noticeably better.
krzkrl@reddit
Even my Sportwagen 17" ride like shit compared to my 16" winters. And I went up a few sizes for more sidewall when I lifted the car.
Murcielago311@reddit
I really liked 17s on my ms3 for improved daily driver ride quality.
Material-Indication1@reddit
When we got my wife's 2011 Mazda 3 2.5 five door way back when, I was very surprised to see Mazdaspeed 3's at the dealership offered for a price very close to what we were paying for the car she was getting.
Now, mind you, the car we got is still sweet and solid and sharp, but for half a minute I tried to imagine what it would take to convince her to get the Mazdaspeed 3 instead.
As is, if we're running late, she drives in an entertainingly aggressive way. Can't imagine with over 100 extra hp.
Murcielago311@reddit
That's funny because I was trying to change up to a frugal DD, was shopping for a mazda 3, and 'accidentally' test drove a speed. It was all over.
Material-Indication1@reddit
That's beautiful!
Kernoriordan@reddit
Did the same on my 2010 Mazda 3 MPS. Swapped to 17s from an Evo 8 MR.
myCarAccount--@reddit
I just downsized from 19 to 18 on my 911 and it made a big difference.
Kernoriordan@reddit
Did the same on my 2010 Mazda 3 MPS. Swapped to 17s from an Evo 8 MR.
6SpeedsGood@reddit
My 2016 GTI rides nicer than my wife’s 2018 Mercedes. I find the ride in the GTI so well balanced for any sort of road driving. I have tracked mine too, and it’s too soft there but…who the hell cares!?!
SNRatio@reddit
I bought a GTI with 19s late last year and did just that. I stuck with performance tires though.
myippick@reddit
I'd recommend it. I went from 18's to 17's on my STI (with larger overall diameter tires too for dirt road purposes) and the ride quality improvement on road has been very nice.
Material-Indication1@reddit
Wife and I have Mazdas on 17s.
Sometimes I crave a 25 year old Lexus LS or Toyota Century or a big Jaguar.
mada447@reddit
I too have a Mazda on 17s. I changed jobs since buying that car and went from a 15 minute commute to a 35 minute commute. So glad I went with the 17s although a luxury car is tempting!
SpaceghostLos@reddit
Xibit be like “nah, G.”
gimpwiz@reddit
Iron brake rotors*
Steel sounds cooler but in virtually all cases, cars run grey iron rotors.
crikett23@reddit
While the point is correct, the choice of 18" wheels has more to do with regulations, and the fact that all of the race tires are available as 18", and not anything else. And, that the brake systems, from calipers, pad compounds, fluids, etc, are quite far from what you have in a street car. If it were strictly a matter of the teams choosing, with all other things being equal, you'd likely be finding 19" and 20" wheels being used on many cars.
n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit
Probably weighs half of a lux car.
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
Pretty sure that car is like 200-400lbs lighter than the street going GT3RS, which is already, itself, around 400-500lbs lighter than the heaviest AWD turbo variant.
orthopod@reddit
Smaller wheels are actually lighter. They also have decreased rotational momentum compared to larger wheels which means better braking and acceleration.
Maybe guys who track their cars will often go down an inch on the wheel for this reason permitting the brakes still fit.
timelessblur@reddit
Hey larger disk also provide slightly more control in brake modulation but 99% of us are mortals and could not use that extra control any how and vast majority who say they can are lying to you and mostly themselves as well.
Bonerchill@reddit
Would you mind listing your sources about a larger rotor providing better modulation?
timelessblur@reddit
More it is physics. More surface area allowing slightly more modulation in the dragging. Now what us mere mortals can do we could not tell the difference nor be able to use it.
Bonerchill@reddit
Would you mind listing your sources about a larger rotor providing better modulation?
Please don’t handwave.
gimpwiz@reddit
Swapping from stock brakes to big brakes on my c5 has had zero impact on brake feel on the street, within my ability to detect it. They're actually engineered quite well specially to maintain stock feel and balance, unless you go to a track pad that's more aggressive in how it bites.
brucecaboose@reddit
Laughs in Colorado mountains. You can for sure get brake fade on public roads while going the speed limit if you don’t know how to correctly brake on long downhills (like miles.. sometimes tens of miles of constant descending).
scorb1@reddit
This is why I like a good manual in the mountains.
a_berdeen@reddit
I mean any torque converter 6-8 box does engine braking on hills just fine.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Or at least an auto you can select what gear you want to be in. My silverado lets you pick 1-6 so you can find the sweet spot when decending big hills. Also its cruise when set will automatically downshift on downhills to try to maintain your set speed.
orthopod@reddit
For sure unusual situations exist, but they're not the reason.
jlr2387@reddit
Agreed for the the most part - except mountainous terrain areas. Vehicles have gotten stupid heavy and downsized turbo engines imo don’t provide the same engine braking larger displacement counterparts did so larger brakes are critical and especially vented.
mgobla@reddit
That is simply not true. In 99.9% of vehicles the brakes are MUCH smaller than the wheels.
GrandMarquisMark@reddit
It's partially because 15" wheels would look tiny on a modern car due to the ever increasing size of the cars themselves.
Teutonic-Tonic@reddit
This is a bigger deal than people realize… and not just bigger cars but taller cars. The front ends are much higher due to crash protection requirements which causes the need for taller wheels to be proportional. Pedestrian protection standards requiring space above the engine are part of this. With trucks this is exacerbated by the crazy towing pissing contest and turbo engines which requires a large frontal grill areas for radiator space to keep everything cool
mastawyrm@reddit
Huh? That's literally their purpose. That's like complaining the Prius tries too hard to get good mpg
Bonerchill@reddit
Weekly reminder that the Prius' perfection to get better MPG is a net positive for the automotive world, while trucks' "perfection" to tow more weight is a net negative due to increased cooling package sizing (i.e. bigger, bluffer noses that hide children and kill pedestrians more effectively) and increased component weight.
A 1,000lb weight disparity between vehicles in a crash lead to a 47% increase in baseline fatality probability in the lighter car.
mastawyrm@reddit
Let me know when I can tow to races with a Prius then.
Bonerchill@reddit
How big is your race car?
My car, trailer, and spares are approximately 4,200lbs. It can be towed by a mid-size truck.
Let’s face it: a huge percentage of trucks are owned by people who don’t use their capability weekly, let alone monthly, and would be better-suited by smaller trucks in their daily life. The roads would be a safer place for literally all road users.
Why is this such an outlandish discussion to have?
mastawyrm@reddit
Your experience does not dictate what other people need and get, why is this such an outlandish discussion to have?
Bonerchill@reddit
It. Is. Not. The. Same.
A 2,800lb fun car is safer for literally everyone on the road. Weight disparity is low to negative. Hood height is lower, making pedestrians less likely to die in a collision, visibility for the driver and other road users is better, passive safety is better.
I don’t give a shit what you drive until it affects me. Gearing changing for emissions but also because drivers are daily driving weekend cars affects me. Full-size trucks used as daily drivers are more likely to kill me than cars when I’m driving my 3,000lb daily.
Modern drivers have made it impossible to buy what I want, and make it dangerous to drive what I want.
mastawyrm@reddit
Yeah yeah, everything you like is good. Anything else is bad
Teutonic-Tonic@reddit
Doing work is their job, but accountants and salesmen are driving around F250’s that can tow 20,000 lbs because masculine. People can buy what they want, I was just commenting on one reason that trucks and therefore wheels have grown in size.
mastawyrm@reddit
Towing is still the purpose whether people use them or not. Driving like a crazy 16yo doesn't negate the purpose of the Prius does it?
LordofSpheres@reddit
Truck wheels aren't big for looks, they're big to accommodate the rotors they need for the J2807 tow rating they want. Even with the 300+HP turbodiesel engine brake setups they've figured out, trucks still need massive brakes.
Teutonic-Tonic@reddit
Yes, what I said was the wheel being bigger is due to the overall vehicle being bigger and more powerful .
LordofSpheres@reddit
You said the need was for them to look proportional.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Yeah on the kinds of cars that often ran 15's into the modern era (aka A and B segment, sometimes C for base models) they haven't gotten (much) bigger in length, it's every other dimension.
byteminer@reddit
I ran 35” tires on my 15 inch wheels back on my jeep. It indeed looked silly but man it was plush
TyburnCross@reddit
If I could go down to 15s on my Suburban I would, but the 17s barely clear the calipers as it is when I did a big brake upgrade (put 4 pot from a 2023 police Tahoe on a 2007 suburban)
35/12.5/r17 make it ride like a dream though. Came to me with 275/55r20s on it and the difference is wild.
jcr2022@reddit
Not just size, but weight. The tire load index limits alone demands larger and larger wheels and tires for some of these big suvs. Of course beyond 19-20” that starts to not matter much.
JB_UK@reddit
The tyre has the same diameter, it's just there's less wheel. I don't know why they can't just style the tyre to make it look visually larger.
EastRoom8717@reddit
True luxury is inches of sidewall..
Cheeky_Chris@reddit
Couldn't agree more. Have had a Fiesta ST for years and the rims have seen better days, the tyres are so slim compared to the wheels that you catch them everywhere.
With my new car I didn't want to pay for the bigger wheels so I begrudgingly went for the smallest size. I couldn't believe how comfy it was and if you catch a wheel slightly on anything, it's no bother unless the kerb is absolutely enormous. Such a small wheel convert now.
iso3200@reddit
Rode in a friend's 1981 Lincoln Mark VI (2-door). OEM tire size was P205/75R15. A 75% aspect ratio is unheard of today. Thing was a boat but super nice comfy ride.
erbot@reddit
Thats why Im running 13s now lmao
somedude456@reddit
My first car had 225/60/15s on it. :) RWD, snow... I sent that ass end into a couple curbs and with that much tire, no damage at all.
rioryan@reddit
My winter Miata had 13” wheels. This was the life.
DrZedex@reddit
Can confirm. Lived the same life.
Sun-spex@reddit
My W116 S Class has 205/70R14 tires and I wouldn't trade them for any other tire even as options dwindle.
Upsideisdownhere@reddit
So true! But can you imagine yourself with your brand new 7 series rolling up on 17's with some floatation looking tires? I'm afraid there's no going back... Buyers just don't want to see sidewalls anymore.
Back in the day they made em cooler by adding white letters so they looked more NASCAR, but racing traditions aren't even popular these days unless it's like Euro GT styling.
SupposablyAtTheZoo@reddit
I remember upgrading my first cars 15" rims to 16" and being super happy with that lol
totally_normal_here@reddit
It's funny, isn't it?
If you customised your car with 21" wheels, a gaudy bodykit with a bunch of fake vents, a fake diffuser and even fake exhaust tips, everyone would make fun of you.
But now, manufacturers are ricing cars straight from the factory.
I thought there would be a point where people would think it's too much, with only a few centimetres of sidewall and the entire front of the car being (fake) grill, but people seem to like it.
JTP1228@reddit
Do they though? I'd say about 90 percent of consumers do not care about how their wheels look. I have 20s on one of my cars, and I hate them, but that's how it came from the factory. To get everything else I wanted, I had to take these stupid big wheels. Plus tires cost more for them.
totally_normal_here@reddit
I imagine there's some user testing or focus groups that help drive these decisions. Maybe a consumer won't directly say, "I want 22" wheels", but if they are shown a model with small wheels and another with bigger wheels, there's a chance that the majority prefer the look of the one with bigger wheels.
Wheels are a major design feature of a car, and most people only consider them from a visual standpoint. People generally want big and flashy, rather than small, lightweight and aerodynamic.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's simply changing consumer tastes. We're reaching the point where the market is being dominated by Generation X and Millennials - and their taste isn't necessarily the same as that of their parents.
I'm old enough to remember when high performance cars had deep dish wheels and wide, balloon tyres with thick sidewalls. As an example, a Porsche 930 911 Turbo from the 1980s runs 205/55R16s at the front, and 225/50R16s at the rear.
Even the McLaren F1 runs relatively chunky 235/45R17s up front and 315/45R17s up back.
In contrast, a Mk8 Golf GTI has 235/40R18s. A Golf does not need bigger brakes than a McLaren F1. It just doesn't, but the styling department, acting on customer preferences, demands that the car wears them.
R_V_Z@reddit
There's some of that, but there's also the proportionality between wheel well and waistline. Pedestrian safety has changed car architecture and wheel wells have enlarged to avoid cars looking like the old Toyota Echo.
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
The Golf is a solid 700lbs heavier than that McLaren. I'd err on the side of "better safe than sorry" tbh.
p_rex@reddit
Shit, in the mid-90s, a 15-inch 50-series tire counted as “low profile” on my Integra.
I downsized from 17s to lightweight 16s on my Fiesta ST. I lost the tiniest smidge of turn-in crispness. Apart from that, the improvement to both ride quality and handling was huge.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
You mentioned you're Australian; with the upgraded Brembo package, the Falcon was running 245/40R18's back in 2002, and that thing was meant to be a car for the full family. It has been that way for surprisingly long.
As for mine, some Cro-Magnon put 245/30R20's on mine before I got it. Bought the 235/45R17's it came with (mine doesn't have the upgraded brakes) and plan to swap them on as soon as I can for all the reasons that having a /30 sidewall is bad.
T-Baaller@reddit
I don't think its some FnF/GT/NFS mindset, it's just 'big number = gooder'. Especially as average new car buyer age has only increased over the last decades.
But I'm kinda built different and got smaller wheels for my sports car.
Past-Mousse-4519@reddit
F1 has notoriously trash stock breaks and tyres that cost 40K to replace.
clingbat@reddit
My MK8 Golf R has 235/35/19's from factory, even more silly. Though on the R, most 17" wheels like the wheels on the F1 do not clear the front brakes, they are pretty beefy for a small car.
dreadnought_81@reddit
My mk7 GTI Clubsport came with 19x7.5" wheels running 225/35/19 tyres. Razor-thin sidewall that failed on me twice before I ditched them for an 18" aftermarket wheel. Said wheels are lighter too so the car feels a little bit more eager to dance. Most importantly though, it's all around more settled. You can still feel it moving around and wandering a little bit on road imperfections and camber changes, but in a far less crashy fashion now that it's got some semblance of sidewall.
AFAIK the mk8 GTI stock fitment would probably be 18x7.5" with 225/40 section tyres. They usually give the Rs the 8" wide wheels that necessitate the 235mm tread width, which the special edition GTIs occasionally get. Like the upcoming GTI Edition 50 and the forged Warmenau wheels that debuted with the R facelift.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The 19" wheels that Volkswagen put on the performance pack and Clubsport trims are just silly unless you happen to live in a country where all the roads have the pavement quality of Silverstone or Monza.
Sure they look good in photos, but the ride quality on those things must be absolutely dire. I can imagine the absolute racket those wheels and tyres must have made on the M2 with those expansion joints, let alone the Rallye de Parramatta Road.
dreadnought_81@reddit
I loved looking at it with the Brescia wheels because they (very loosely) remind me of one of the wheel designs used on the 1st gen Audi R8, but to actually drive it? Nerve-wracking, and the minefield known as Parramatta Rd was truly horrific. So the next time you see a spicy Golf going along there with its oversized wheels, just know that they are grimacing the whole time.
It's not like having the massive wheels helped it when being driven in anger either. I don't know how old mate Benny Leuchter could send these things that hard around the Nurburgring without fearing for his life in the event of a blowout.
Some of my favourite bits of road have some dodgy sections where you would slow down out of a sense of dread, because if you hit a pothole or a bit of not-yet-compacted hot mix, it feels like you would get thrown into a ditch. That's how violently it would get jostled around, and the sound of the impact would leave you praying that the wheel hadn't just buckled. It seriously diminished the enjoyment of what is otherwise a great bit of kit.
On that note, apparently the 19" Golf R Pretoria wheels are notorious for buckling. Yeah, those being flow formed are lighter than the lower-end cast wheels, but what good is that when they're cracked or no longer round? You don't get style points on the side of the road.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I've only got the standard 16" Monzas on the Polo, and I've copped some absolutely cringe inducing hits on Parramatta Road, one of which made me wonder if I literally topped out the suspension and slammed the wheel/tyre into the bump stop.
I actually saw someone getting around in a 911 Dakar the other day, and I suspect they're having more fun than anyone in a GT3RS simply by being able to send it over any bumps and imperfections in the road.
dreadnought_81@reddit
That'd probably be a safe bet. I would assume that very few of these Dakars are being flogged on rally stages, but for real-world performance accessibility on the road, they must be far more enjoyable just from not having to stress as much.
Wouldn't just be potholes and other road imperfections either. I know that many exotics have front axle lift now, but even then, there are a lot of hostile driveways out there if you have even a mildly pointy chin spoiler. Even my Golf, decidedly not a low-slung exotic, calls for some serious angling to not scrape sometimes.
Workdawg@reddit
It'd be hard to run R20 tires on an 18" wheel, that's for sure.
jawknee530i@reddit
I put smaller ribs with taller sidewalls on my Audi when I got it four years ago and I'm doing the same to my wife's Soul she just got this last week. Absolutely despise the fact that so many people are happy with the shitty low profile tires to the point they are practically standard on everything. Why the hell is a Soul concerned with driving dynamics and styling over comfort?
frankd412@reddit
255/40 is actually a lot of sidewall, that's 102mm or over 4". The rim height only adds to that (that would be a 20+4+4 or 28" tall tire), where the same size in 18 would be 26" tall (ie a 255/40 always gives you 4" from rim to the tread). A 225/40 would be shorter as well as over 1" narrower (around 3.5" of sidewall), to match the height/sidewall, you'd need a 225/45.
seneeb@reddit
If I had an award!
Bring back 225/60/16!
lowstrife@reddit
That's the size on my Toyota... it's amusing. 245\45\18 is a direct bolt-on replacement, you don't even need to recalibrate your speedo.
I ran the rims for 3 months before selling them at a pretty big loss. The ride quality was just absolute dogshit, when the whole point of the car was to be smooth and nice.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I'd love to understand the logic behind why you thought it was a brilliant idea to put big wheels and low profile tyres on a Camry of all things.
Were you trying to get specific tyres for it, or was this just an aborted attempt to go full Mansory on the car?
random352486@reddit
245/45 is low profile now? That's still some meaty sidewall.
p_rex@reddit
Poseur shit. That’s the TRD Camry’s MO.
lowstrife@reddit
FWIW, it's a old lexus LS. They 18's were off of a newer model Lexus.
the_buff@reddit
Avalon.
luke10050@reddit
205/65/r15 isn't bad. I do prefer the "low profiles" of yesteryear.
Funny to know my commodore takes the same front tires as a McLaren F1
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
That's the size on my 124 Mercedes, and lemme tell you if it ain't annoying to find tires that size, least here in the US. Seems like everyone is dropping tons of 15" options these days. Wanted a new set of Michelin Primacys for it, no longer made in a 15" anything. Bummer.
onlyhereforpcmr@reddit
Relative of mine has the new Macan Turbo with 22” rims, I genuinely could not believe how crashy it was over bumps. It almost got to a point after 30 minutes where i was about to wince if I saw an expansion joint lol
Deadpools_sweaty_leg@reddit
Not only that. Look at the power and weight differences of the S class of today and the one of the 90s. 230-400 horsepower TOPs. The new ones start at 440 horsepower all the way up to almost 800. The base weight is up by 500 pounds and the top weight is up by about 1000 pounds 4500 in the 90s to like 4800-5500 today. All that weight needs to be controlled with heavier duty suspension that cannot compensate well with the road conditions. Too soft the car is not controlled.
timbotheny26@reddit
That's why I ended up landing back at Subaru for my next car. I was seriously considering a Mazda 3, but I was genuinely concerned that the roads where I live will destroy the fuck out of the wheels because of the low-profile tires it comes with.
big_cock_lach@reddit
I will add as well, consumer tastes regarding design has changed as you pointed out, but same with driving characteristics too. Back then they wanted comfortable cars to be, well, comfortable. They either had a driver, or if they didn’t want to think they were driving. Today, everyone wants their cars to feel a bit more sporty. Low profile tyres help with that, but so does stiffer suspension, stiffer chassis, and even sport seats. All of which makes the car less comfortable. Even Bentley and Rolls Royce have started to make their cars feel more sporty and they mention it in their advertising too now. This would’ve been unheard of for these big luxury barges of 20 years ago where the goal was, effectively, to feel as unsporty as possible.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
I think uk top gear (i think it was james may who said it) said it best when describing old luxury cars : "its like a discreet ahem from the butler" followed by an aristocratic "wump in the kidneys."
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Exactly. Tires are the first shock absorber in a suspension system. 70s boats rode like lazy boys due to fat sudewalls, soft springs, soft shocks, and soft plushy seats to hold your ass. Modern car seats are all about firm and hugging you like a race car.
Old cars would ride like shit too if you put big low pro tires on, firm shocks, and stiff seats.
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
Yeah, then they have to fill that wheel with a big brake. Or more accurately as ProjectZeus said, they go overboard with the tests and fit bigger than truly necessary brakes.
Plus, the heavier weight of modern cars with more sound deadening and crash safety structures also requires larger brakes. I hate the trend for 19s to be the new "minimum fitment" on these gargantuan, warthog weighted """""sports""""" cars, when just 15 years ago, 17s did just fine and 18s were the "super performance" norm.
AdministrationIcy368@reddit
Ya my macan came with 21” wheels. Originally customer specced a $7000 option. To go from 19 to 21. I bought 19” wheels and I am waiting for tires to wear down so I can swap it.
mandrsn1@reddit
I own a Volvo station wagon. It came with 20" wheels. If you went back 20 years, people wouldn't be able to comprehend that.
BuckManscape@reddit
Yep my son has a 2003 Avalon. It’s like floating on a cloud compared to my Mazda 3 hatch touring with 18” wheels. I had a 2015 mustang gt performance package before the 3. It was desperately uncomfortable for any ride over 2 hours. You really don’t want recaro seats in your daily unless you’re young, and most young people can’t afford anything that comes with them from the factory. Who are they building this shit for?
Threewisemonkey@reddit
My 1990 S class has 16” wheels with 225/55 tires, and from the factory came with 15”. I always get the beefiest tires I can on all my cars bc it’s so much nicer to drive.
Fuck a rubber band tire, that’s like putting 6” stilettos on your car 👠
bonerlad@reddit
Don't forget most new cars don't come with spare tires, so they use run flat tires with harder side walls. Also, most luxury cars are designed to be sporty, so stiffer suspension for better handling.
Joatboy@reddit
Tire compound and tread pattern matter so, so much more than sidewall height as far as traction/handling performance goes.
I hate this ultra-low profile tire trend with a passion. It hurts every aspect of performance.
RuinedGrave@reddit
Cadillac Escalades now come with 24” wheels. I shat bricks when I overheard my coworker looking up a replacement tire for one the first time.
jondes99@reddit
And it’s not just the lack of sidewall. The unsprung weight of some of these wheel and tire combinations is shocking.
LawApprehensive8364@reddit
They were only laughed at because older cars with smaller wheel wells and small brakes made to fit into a 15 or 16” wheel made them look out of place.
And also because they were the most awful looking designs possible most of the time but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.
FuzzelFox@reddit
That and demand for luxury cars to be comfortable, sporty, quiet and loud all at once. Cars used to be purpose built. A Town Car was never treated as a sports car: it was comfortable as fuck.
somedude456@reddit
BINGO! My car only has 17s, but the sidewall is like a 30. I remember cars with 225/60/15s back in my day. I'm about to ditch those factory 17s and actually go with a 15 and get some more sidewall. No more being scared of potholes.
jeff3rd@reddit
Ah so we went totally opposite of the “I’m a grower not a shower”
SouverainQC@reddit
I don't remember having been in a W140, but I've been in many newer and older cars (German, American, Swedish, Japanese, etc.) and I wouldn't classify ANY of them as being more comfortable than the new BMW i7 xDrive60 (G70 chassis, shared with the new 7-series).
Although, perhaps one needs to define what "comfort" means to them ; for me, it means low NVH, plush yet supportive seats, and a cosseting ride without marshmallowing all over the road after a bump – and in my book, that's a perfect definition of BMW's G70 chassis (with or without Active Comfort drive Pro).
wahoaaaa@reddit
ob·jec·tive·ly /əbˈjektəvlē,äbˈjektəvlē/ adverb
in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.
Intrxvert_ed@reddit
I have a 2008 Toyota Solara, which definitely floats over bumps but can still handle cornering and handling well in extreme situations.
My buddy has a 2015 3 series that feels like its suspension is just straight up welded to the frame.
My 2022 Wrangler JLU rides better than quite a few “comfort oriented” cars I’ve been in. That’s saying something, as Wranglers are by no means comfortable vehicles.
It really comes down to the push for sportiness in EVERYTHING and rubber band tires on ginormous rims.
Random_Introvert_42@reddit
Even comfy cars need to be sporty now. Lots of brands test on the Nordschleife, every car test involves how fast you can go through a slalom, "disconnected" feeling feels negative.
But also: Giant wheels with no sidewall, and nobody's being inventive really (think Citroen Hydropneumatic) since strut-and-spring with some electronic adjustability works fine (and can be locked to OEM support).
mustang-GT90210@reddit
I've had a couple Crown Vic's over the years. One with factory 15s, the other with factory 16s. I put 17" Mustang wheels on one of them, and it firmed it up nicely, felt a little sportier, less boat like. I put Mustang 19s on the other, and I literally thought to myself on the way home "what have I done..."
The floating feeling comes from the tires. More sidewall soaks up more bumps. But the industry has decided everyone has to have big wheels, and rubber band tires. So in essence, half the suspension is gone, compared to the cars of yesterday.
Mdbutnomd@reddit
Also with the ride, car seats themselves have become hard as rocks in the last 15 years. My 2005 Tahoe’s seats were very plush and comfy, but newer GM vehicles Have seats that might as well be plastic stadium chairs. I don’t get it.
TP_Crisis_2020@reddit
Yup, my dad bought a 2019 GMC Acadia Denali, which you would think would be comfortable. The seats in that thing are so hard, that my legs start to fall asleep any time I am riding with him for more than 30 minutes. Funny you mention 2005 Tahoe, because I have one of those as my daily and I have NO plans on getting rid of it because its seats are so nice and comfy.
Extreme-Service-9279@reddit
It's an Acadia... Lmao at "think". It's a large shit box
Cater_the_turtle@reddit
2000s seem like the peak with plushy seats. My mom’s 2002 Lexus ES had seats that felt like sofas. Compare that to any new Lexus seat..
DARTHDIAMO@reddit
There was a post on the Lexus sub a few months ago comparing the interiors of every generation of ES. You can see with each new generation the seats get less and less plush until finally the new '26 ES' seats which looks hard as a rock.
162630594@reddit
Seriously, I got in the back seat of I think a last gen chevy equinox for an uber one time. The seat was like a park bench, and the fabric was just so shitty and cheap feeling. Like one of those rocking gaming chairs with speakers built in you buy for your kid
What the hell happened.
_Age_Sex_Location_@reddit
Enshittification of everything.
DrZedex@reddit
To be fair that's one of the shittiest modern vehicles in many ways.
2011Mercury@reddit
Those kids grew up and need cars now.
clogged_toilet80@reddit
I was shocked by how hard Kia seats are. I sat in one at an auto show this year and thought maybe it was only that particular model or trim. I sat in several more Kias and all the seats were hard. My 2006 office chair with its no-longer squishy padding is still softer.
Velocister@reddit
A lot of that is due to safety, softer plusher seats mean occupants can submarine under their lap belt restraint (meaning they slide underneath the belt) and increase torso injuries.
SigmaBallsLol@reddit
I dunno how true that is, I tried an 17 Lincoln MKX a few years ago and it had the softest most comfortable chairs I've ever sat in. I ended up getting a X1 instead and it had much firmer seats.
Either those changes are pretty new or Lincoln just didn't care.
Muggi@reddit
100%, had an '03 Suburban so likely the same seats you're mentioning, and those suckers were PLUSH.
Got me reminiscing now..that thing had GM's AutoRide airbag suspension, combined with those seats...100% best long-travel vehicle ever, and that's from a former traveling salesman (so I chewed through cars rapidly).
ilovek@reddit
My biggest complaint for my 23 Sierra
MycoRylee@reddit
I think it's wheel standards now are way bigger than they used to be, and tires eat up the majority of road imperfections. Old comfy cars always had huge fat sidewalls to soak up curbs like they're nothing. Try that on a 45 sidewall you'll be walking home lol.
Bradymyhero@reddit
"Objectively"
Where's your proof for this claim?
Those old cars were comfortable sure, but also very boaty with poor body control and unsupportive seats.
Cars today are much heavier, with more stringent crash safety standards, technology, performance, etc. Many, but not all, cars today can both ride well AND handle well. Something not necessarily doable in the past
FunnyAdhesiveness256@reddit
Because the car reviews tell people their shit if they don’t corner flat, or flat ish.
Ars139@reddit
Good other answers about larger wheels and lower profile tires.
Also because modern cars are heavier so require higher wheel rates to resist body roll as in thicker sway bars and stiffer springs.
yoyoyowuzzup@reddit
Lower quality. Cheap trash. Even rolls royce looks like plastic garbage
AdShoddy7599@reddit
Because people buy it anyway Whenever you have a question about things getting worse over time, that’s your answer
bluesagebrett@reddit
I think it's more the quality of the roads today are garbage.
SnowmanRandom@reddit
Design. Big wheels that look cool (but with thin tires and big rims).
Small rims with fat tires still look like small wheels, because the tires are black and don't add to the visual size of the wheels.
You need big rims (and thus no space for fat tires) to give the visual impression of big wheels.
If they could replace the black carbon in tires with some other type of material that is white, then tires could add more to the visual size of the wheels.
Or they could make rubber hubcaps that extend over the tire to give the impression of larger rims, while still having thick tires.
Or they could bring back painted sidewalls like Tesla did with their "robotaxi". I think this might be the best option for now.
strangway@reddit
Fat tires went out of style.
Averageinternetdoge@reddit
I'd love to see some top designers sketch something modern/contemporary with fat tires (and which is not an off-roader). Would be super interesting to see if we truly need big rims.
manystripes@reddit
Maybe they could back whitewalls if they want a design with big tires that pops
SnowmanRandom@reddit
This. There might also be white alternatives to carbon to provide long-living white or grey tires.
strangway@reddit
The Kia EV6 has some fat Michelins. Damn EV rides better than my Benz.
RaphssX@reddit
I’ve actually been trying to get to the bottom of this exact issue for the past two years and I think I finally found a solid explanation.
It’s not the suspension modern suspensions are incredibly advanced and capable. The issue is with the software. Most automakers today rely on the same ECU and stability control software, and that’s where the problem begins.
What’s happening is that the software is overcorrecting for completely normal road irregularities things like small drain lines or slight slopes. Instead of letting the car flow naturally over them, the system applies braking and acceleration to individual wheels, trying to “correct” something that doesn’t need correcting. The result is harsh bumps, wobble, vibrations, and even that weird feeling of the car being thrown side to side especially at freeway speeds.
Part of the blame also falls on the yaw sensor, which measures the angle of the vehicle. On a normal road with a mild incline, the system can misinterpret the car’s position and try to “stabilize” it, which only introduces more instability.
Ironically, today’s stability control systems are functioning like “instability control” they’re fighting the road instead of flowing with it.
I believe this is a systemic problem across brands because most are running very similar logic. It’s frustrating that such advanced tech is creating a worse ride experience than cars made 20–30 years ago, but I’m working on documenting it further and reporting it to the proper agencies. You’re not crazy for noticing something is definitely off.
Significant_Pie_2392@reddit
I can't speak for luxury cars but regular small cars have definitely come a long way. I've driven an E210 Corolla Touring for some time and that thing is so comfy on 16s while having decent handling. Looks pretty awful with the thick sidewalls and tucked in wheels though.
tallpaullewis@reddit
My wife has a Citroen C3 Aircross. It is so soft and smooth, like Citroens of old. Great for long distances. My Fiat Panda feels like a go cart with no springs in comparison. I've got time for them both.
TenesmusSupreme@reddit
I didn’t read all the comments, but run flat tires transmit a lot of NVH directly to the cabin. In the quest for space savings and no spare tire, some luxury cars have switched to run flats so they don’t need to include a spare tire.
AffectionatePin2668@reddit
Because of a couple things for sure. One is that everybody seems to like low profile tires, which are terrible for ride quality. Secondarily, between the safety standards and the desire to have high-performance numbers, they make cars with tight suspension and aggressive shocks rather than these buttery, smooth light, suspension, and shocks of old luxury vehicles Pick a ride sometime in a 1979 Lincoln continental and you will hate today’s manufacturers/cars
iambobgrange@reddit
I’ve got the new 7. It sure I’ve ever been in a more comfortable car in my life. Also extremely solid and manages to stay flat and composed in the corners. Purely anecdotal, though, and can’t claim to have driven them back-to-back…
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah I have no idea what OP or people in this thread are on about in general, the s680 maybach is also one of the comfiest cars I’ve been in, and it clears the 90s s-class with ease
DruidB@reddit
People are pissed because the average affordable family car rides like shit now compared to the 1980's. We used to float over bumps while sitting on couches covered in soft velour. Now we crash over each pothole while sitting on hard seats covered in 80 grit sandpaper.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Definitely valid but the issue is when people compare cars that were 200k+ adjusted for inflation to mid range sedans
SportsGamesScience@reddit (OP)
No ones doing that.
SportsGamesScience@reddit (OP)
The seats are incredibly comfortable with modern Benzes but that is not what this post is about. Its not about seats.
Its about the fact that when I got to ride in a 2017 W222 S500, after being hyped up through youtube reviews about how smooth the engine will be, how soft the air suspension will be, how incredible the zf8 is... I took the bait. I actually walked out thinking, "wow, what a ride".... until i got back into my 2005 VW... before getting to ride in a W140 S500 a couple months later.
And I realised that the W222 jolted back and forth, although insignificantly, yet noticeable after having driven a naturally aspirated German car for 20 years (VW Bora).
And I also realised that the ride was bumpier than the W140 i rode in last week!
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Zf8?
obeytheturtles@reddit
I think OP is just kind of inexperienced, and has never spent hours riding in an older luxury car which has a tendency to sway and oscillate due to soft suspension and weird weight distribution, rather than staying more planted like modern cars do. I can definitely see how just doing a quick drive in one might make it feel more comfortable at a glance though, just by virtue of it being different to what you are used to.
SportsGamesScience@reddit (OP)
And then I realised that a distinction needs to be made between modern cars and classic cars when it comes to driving experience.
I realised that the W222 was 'soft-riding' and 'smooth' for modern expectations.
It was described this way because it was being compared to cars in a world where 80% of cars have turbos (VWs, Hyundais, Kias etc), DSGs, and all have, as many have pointed out, gigantic wheels with thin tyres.
The W222 is smooth and comfortable in ride compared to that i agree. But from my experience, im sorry, but that W140 experience opened by eyes and gave me realisations.
FalseBuddha@reddit
They seem to just want big, wobbly couches with no chassis control.
Clover-kun@reddit
Maybe OP is confusing blown shocks with comfort, who knows
MatzedieFratze@reddit
This thread is full of shit. Especially some weird usa oriented fetish , I’m only waiting for someone to tell me that shifter is more comfortable. The 7 series is a class are comfy as fuck and don’t feel harsh at all neither does a back feel sore and no, a 30 year old s class is not better in that regard . Jesus Christ what is this
aponderingpanda@reddit
It's been a while since I've been in an older luxury car but I just remember them feeling really floaty.
Bassracerx@reddit
If you adjust for inflation the w140 cost over $180k in today’s money. You would have to drive the meybach edition mercedes to get a true apples- to apples comparison of the new vs old.
Mostly its consumer taste and germans did not expect to drive 300km/h (186mph) back in 1991 like they do today. Your chassis has to respond very quickly at those speeds!
Workdawg@reddit
GPS aided gear change?
162630594@reddit
Several factors.
Ventilated seats means they cant have as much cushion in order to get the airflow they need. The seats tend to be stiffer.
Car journalists complain if any car they drive doesnt handle like a miata. Manufacturers want to get good reviews, so handling takes priority over comfort. Even if a car doesnt need to handle well for its average buyer. This also effects seats as they need to add stiffer side bolsters
Wheels are huge. Cars used to have 15 inch wheels and a tire that was 75% sidewall, now its 20 inches with 30-40% sidewall. That's a lot of air that went missing between the wheel and the ground, so theres much less of a cushion.
caxer30968@reddit
Ventilated seats are actually more comfortable than their counterpart. They have extra padding to make the air flow. At least on BMWs and Porsches
JournalistExpress292@reddit
So with BMWs I’ve heard people specially say that the ventilated seats cause more discomfort because the seat bottom is different.
Live-Habit-6115@reddit
Dunno but my BMW iX had vented seats and they're waaaay more comfortable than the seats I've had in other luxury cars, with or without ventilation.
Side note: the ventilated seats in BMWs suck and are borderline useless. Overall I prefer BMW, but Mercedes does seat cooling far better.
Ran4@reddit
Nah the other way around. They're much harder and worse on Porsches, it's a very well known issue.
162630594@reddit
I was thinking of the late 2000s cadillac DTS when I typed that. I sat on both and noticed a difference in seat comfort. But maybe improvements have been made since then
TP_Crisis_2020@reddit
I have a 2008 STS and test drove many of them before buying, and both the ventilated and normal seats are hard as rocks. 🤣
_JaredVennett@reddit
Noted on the ventilated seats... never thought of that but does make sense.
abattlescar@reddit
I'd say 3 things: generally heavier vehicles, thin tires, and consumer taste. By consumer taste I mean that even the least discerning driver wants at least a little feedback, and the 80s barges were just horrible on that metric.
mgobla@reddit
The REAL reason, no matter what people tell you: Big wheels. Big wheels ruin the ride, different opinions don't influence reality.
nyviola@reddit
Welcome to the world of sport-ifying everything, and the one-car-can-do-it-all style of design. First, make a car longer and wider, to add space inside. Then add even more weight for safety equipment and electronics. You’ve got something much larger than the older s class now, and heavier as well. Ok, fine. But your target market has changed. You don’t only need to sell to the old money now, you also need to attract tech bros, crypto kids, and nepo babies. So your huge, cumbersome boat needs to somehow be “sporty” and a “driver’s car”. The target market for social media is the 20-40 year old good looking rich. The old money isn’t going anywhere, anyway, and they don’t change out their cars anywhere near as often. How do we make an enormous car sporty? Air suspension that goes from stiff to rock hard. Take it to the Nurburgring and see how fast it gets around. Is there some lean in corners? Anti roll bars and an even stiffer chassis for the next generation. Keep this up for 20 years and you get where we are today. In the late 80s, having a bit of float or body roll was fine, it took the edge off of things. No need to have crisp turn in, or any of the other driver’s car stuff that you don’t need. BMW had the m series, Mercedes has amg, and Audi has the s/rs series for the hardcore sporty versions of their cars. These attracted a lot of attention, and suddenly became money makers. In short, because a lot people want and buy sportier giant cars, even if they are objectively less comfortable, and defeat the point of having a luxury barge. I recently had a long ride in an early 90s 500sel. It’s a monster, and supremely comfortable, but I’d never call it agile. I’d hate taking up the mountain to the ski slopes, but if I had to drive it from hamburg to Switzerland, I’d arrive fresh, and ready to ski.
clogged_toilet80@reddit
Good points. I think part of the issue is it's hard to convey how comfortable seats are or how smooth the ride is. Those are subjective and can't be quantified. It's easy to give acceleration times, lap times, slalom speeds, and skidpad G numbers, so that's what reviewers and car companies go after. You end up with vehicles that may put up good numbers, but may be lacking in other ways.
_Age_Sex_Location_@reddit
I love this comment. Prose that emphasizes everything I hate about modern automobile design and engineering.
s1unk12@reddit
Objectively speaking my 2014 hyundai santa fe is the opposite of the trend following pattern. The tires have 40+% sidewall. The car is only 3600 lbs and ir isn't fast but it's super comfortable including the seats.
Unfortunately the modern buyer would think some overweight german car with 20+ inch wheels is the better "luxury" car even though they are uncomfortable as hell.
This is similar to the evolution of couches. Nowadays couches have to look "modern" which involves having zero neck and back support and the back height of a kiddo Porta potty. They suck and are uncomfortable. I miss my couches from childhood.
driller_unicorn@reddit
Cars are heavier and controling the weight is a problem while providing secure handling. It's my guess.
wt290@reddit
Yep, and SUVs are taller so controlling body roll needs stiffer suspension. Especially the anti roll bars.
_Age_Sex_Location_@reddit
I've been wailing about all of this as I noticed that you can't hold a coffee in a crossover without it sloshing around and bumping into your face as you drink. Never had that problem in older vehicles.
162630594@reddit
Well cadillacs were famous for their ride at a time when they weighed 5000 pounds. Of course they didnt give a damn about handling, so thats how they achieved it
driller_unicorn@reddit
When I hear Cadillac I immediatley picture a land boat rolling 30° in the corners
Falloutvictim@reddit
My Cadillac stays flat in the corners.
FentmaxxerActual@reddit
Mfw the 2025 production dedicated super sedan handles different than the classic 80s land yachts
driller_unicorn@reddit
CT5-V, Black Wing MT ? That all I know about américain cars
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Modern cars are way heavier than any of those old land yachts relative to size. A 3rd gen deville ('65-70) weighed around 4900 lbs but it was also 225 inches long. The previous gen M5 without the hybrid system weighed only 530 lbs less and was a full 2.5 feet shorter at 195 inches and half a foot narrower than it.
ozziegt@reddit
Yeah try taking that caddy through the moose test and see what happens
FSCK_Fascists@reddit
I was thinking the same. I had a 79 Sedan DeVille, it rode like floating on a cloud. a 2 and a half ton cloud.
nixcamic@reddit
I have a 98 Suburban and you feel in every way like you're driving a couch and that thing is one of the heaviest passenger vehicles ever sold.
SportsGamesScience@reddit (OP)
I dunno about this tbh because the W140 S500 is 200-300kg (450-650lbs) heavier than the W222 S500.
clogged_toilet80@reddit
A big problem I have with modern cars is the seating. So many have seats with big thigh and seatback bolsters that make the seat so uncomfortable. These aren't even sporty cars I'm talking about. I'm just driving around the suburbs. I don't need seat bolsters pinning me in the seat like I'm rally racing. At 6' tall and 235 lbs, I'm a bit on the bigger side. I hate how the bolsters dig into my hips. Part of the reason I still drive an 18-yr-old car is because the seats in the new cars are so uncomfortable.
nonamenogain@reddit
Low profile/run flat tires probably.
GrumpyCatStevens@reddit
Three words: large diameter wheels.
Two more words: runflat tires.
Dark-matterz@reddit
Stiffer suspension in “luxury” cars now. People’s idea of riding around in a lounge chair isn’t appealing anymore. Does some of it have to do with the plushness of the seating I wonder? I’m not a luxury car guy, but it seems like modern cars have stiffer cushioning than 30-40y ago. Even my mil’s hummer has seats that are akin to a lamb leather couch. Just so ridiculously out of place in that car, but comfy.
uucchhiihhaa@reddit
Untrue where i live
QTFsniper@reddit
Why are car reviewers bringing comfort cars to track days like any of those metrics even matter for what the cars are intended for? Noone is doing this when buying those cars
SPLICER21@reddit
If I had to nail three things.... Cars are heavier now than ever before (mainly due to safety regulations). That can make comfort a challenge. Next, wheel and tire sizes are VERY tailored towards aesthetic in this current era. Sidewall ratio to wheel diameter does matter. I would also say there's a commonly agreed notion that roads are rapidly degrading everywhere. Quality has always been appreciated, but rapid expansion tends to favor quantity. Also, no one likes traffic.
-Avid car idiot
Laundryczar@reddit
I love this discussion. I’ve been moaning about this for a decade and I couldn’t be happier to see that others see the same issue. Granted, I’m old enough to have adult memories of plush land yachts and “personal luxury” behemoths. At some point in life, with the perspective of age, you just want comfort and simplicity. Life no longer needs to be a race and compression ratios of your thingymadoodle don’t matter. My kingdom for an Eldorado or Mark IV with airbags!
Emissary_of_Darkness@reddit
You might like the new generation Lincoln Continental from 2017-2020. It is basically the last car of this type to ever exist.
Laundryczar@reddit
I admit I had forgotten about those. I went and looked at pictures and remembered that I had been in them when they were used by our local car service for long airport runs. They were nice and rode well but they still seemed to have a hard design.
whatheck0_0@reddit
640i has an N55 just FYI
Limefish5@reddit
28yo s class? If you want to feel true luxury. Any Cadillac or Buick 67' to 72'. You will think the Mercedes has no tires on it!
Status_Jackfruit_169@reddit
Car company’s used to actually want u to love there cars back then compared to now they just want ur money
Solid_Enthusiasm550@reddit
Manufacturer ruin them by trying to make them handle like a sportscar. This, in turn makes them not good at what why where desugned for, Comfort.
BMW did this along time ago and ruined them.
Ride in an E38 then ride in a E65
Or
E39 vs. E60.
Old models where Luxorious, cloud like rides. In comparison, the later models road like trucks.
TizTheWiz@reddit
E60's ride better than E39's in every considerable metric. Softer over rough roads, far better interior materials, and WAY less NVH.
Solid_Enthusiasm550@reddit
LOL, I need some of whatever you are smoking. Maybe you are in europe? I am talking USA models.
An e39 is like riding on a cloud, compared to the truck ride of the E60. The 7 series are an even Bigger difference. I haven't driven any of the models from the last 15yrs. I was a dealer tech in the late 90s to 2010. F01 was my last new model and that didn't ride as nice as the E38 either.
E65 was a POS. E90 awd was the worst riding BMW I've ever driven. I drove 1 ton landscaping trucks that rode better.
I would only take an E60 if it was the M5, I loved racing customer's cars on the highway.
s1unk12@reddit
The e61 I have rides way better than the modern cars nowadays thanks to the big sidewall on the tires, the plush rear air suspension and the rear sway bar that only activates when you are cornering.
Daninomicon@reddit
Comfort vehicles are more about the inside. Luxury vehicles are more about a smooth ride. Comfort is an upgrade to the interior. Luxury is an upgrade to the mechanics.
Daegoba@reddit
Er’body talking about wheels and tires, but for me it’s the suspension.
I’m not “comfortable” with the car bouncing and rolling around on the road. I want it to absorb the bumps and make the suspension work as opppsed to just floating up and down everytime it encounters imperfections.
vampyrelestat@reddit
Comfort cruisers have to be “sport tuned” nowadays. People don’t appreciate a sofa like ride anymore, but in reality it’s what we all want.
TheArchist@reddit
massive wheels is the biggest culprit. my brother's es feels plush to this day, while my is350 and my dad's rx500 feel rather stiff in comparison because the wheels are bigger
Dodoz44@reddit
Because every luxury car nowadays still "needs" to be sporty enough to not fall asleep driving it immediately.
TheAppropriateBoop@reddit
Modern cars chase numbers on a spec sheet. Older ones chased a feeling. That feeling was 'I’m gliding on clouds
metallicadefender@reddit
Still more of a sporting influence then the classic American Cruiser. Also bigger wheel rims and shorter sidewall tires than back then.
c0rbin9@reddit
A lot of people are talking about consumer taste for bling bling oversized wheels, but they're not mentioning the fuel economy and crash safety regulations that necessitate the big wheels in the first place.
The bulbous hoods and high beltlines you see in modern cars are the result of regulations. All this extra body area though means the cars would look like refrigerators on casters with small wheels, so manufacturers are forced to fit a bigger wheel which looks halfway decent, which compromises the ride quality. There's also the extra weight people mentioned, which necessitates higher spring rates, as well as stiff foam seats that again are designed for safety, not comfort. While on the one hand it's great that you can crash a modern car at 45 mph and almost always survive, we have also lost a lot in the way of usability, visibility, comfort, etc.
But yeah, no modern S-Class or Rolls Royce or Lincoln rides as well as one from 25 years ago. Car development for the last 25 years has largely been a series of trade-offs, not genuine improvement like it was previously. Peak car was in the 1990s, IMO.
IngRagSol@reddit
To make the whole ride and apparent weight seem lighter, suspension is harder... even though every cars is heavier instead...
grumpypantaloon@reddit
well the first thing to get rid of are run-flat tyres. You can have 150k car with adaptive dampers with 3 solenoids, antiroll bars, active whatever-it-is that keeps the car level like a train on tracks, if your tyre is +5kg full of metal wireframe, it will ride like a train...off track
IditarodDays@reddit
The suspension on old cars is absolutely destroyed after over 20 years creating the illusion of soft riding but they are objectively more dangerous to drive due to poor cornering and braking ability.
Somterink@reddit
Record breaking profits
Artistic_Muffin7501@reddit
Handling > Comfort
MasoFFXIV@reddit
This is nothing new. I keep 15s on my 2001 Celica. People love(d) putting 17s and 18s on that car with already small tire diameter. It's tragic.
Lucky_Comfortable835@reddit
Look at the seats of cars before the 1960s - they are like living room sofas! They even have springs in the seat bottoms. I love those old seats, but you do slide around a bit.
barbiejet@reddit
This is the first thread in forever on /r/cars in which nobody is shitting on Jeep Wranglers
OvONettspend@reddit
Because everyone wants to larp as a racecar driver
Jstexisting_97@reddit
I'd rather drive a classic than any modern car. Modern cars are so uncomfortable interior-wise.
DeepsCL9@reddit
Like so many other comenters here, wheel size and sidewall height is the biggest factor. My parents bought a lovely new Accord last year - 19'' wheels! They have engineered the car to be supremely comfortable, but I can feel every tire impact on expension joints and sudden bumps. I have a set of 18'' Model 3 wheels ready to go on; 11lb lighter per corner and much taller sidewall. Hopefully this works.
I was astonished how comfortable the ride quality was on an Odyssey I test drove recently. I I guess, when you don't mind driving a fashion disaster, smaller wheels are allowed and COMFORT comes back in full force. Such a good family vehicle. Perhaps I'm getting old?
natesully33@reddit
At least in the US, people that want squishy rides drive full size trucks and SUVs. I suppose that doesn't explain why Euro luxury cars have all gone "racecar" but in this market trucks are the new land yachts.
It's not quite the same as the old luxury cars OP describes, but my Lightning does drive like a cozy house floating on a magic carpet. Same for the Silverado 1500 I had a few cars ago. These things can waft around low-density cities and soak up highway miles like the best old school luxury car.
phxbimmer@reddit
Big wheels and an obsession with making everything “sporty” is what ruined the ride quality on new cars. Modern BMW’s ride like crap compared to how plush they used to be back in the day.
su1ac0@reddit
Because of enthusiasts.
Car journos were just journos reviewing cars as means of transportation.
Enthusiasts for cars become a thing.
Those enthusiasts gravitate to being car journos because they love cars.
They start to judge cars harshly based on enthusiast desires.
Over decades of this, car manufacturers start to respond to bad reviews and slowly start changing cars to be more sporty, faster, "better handling" etc.
The normie's opinion only comes in one form: sales. Cars continue to sell because what else are you gonna buy? And if the only people spouting opinions are reacting positively to your changes, why not make the changes?
manny3574@reddit
Try an Audi A8L
Calibrumm@reddit
the current market trends towards sporty characteristics even on luxury vehicles. that's it.
ScurvyDervish@reddit
People are getting fatter.
PhilKesselsChef@reddit
Part of it is just the enshittification of everything over the last 20 years. I currently have an 01 LS430 that I’m working on that when she runs, is like riding on a cloud. Smoothest highway cruiser I’ve ever been in. I also just picked up a 1999 Suburban that is just a treat to work on and has the most comfortable seats of any vehicle I’ve ever been in.
Juxtaposing this against my friend who has a 2022 Bronco Sport that he had to have a $2000 repair done to for an electrical issue, I’m almost more prone to keeping my older cars running and avoiding a payment than overpaying for something new and impossible to do my own fixes to
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
Everyone talking about ride, but you also asked about engine smoothness. A big lumbering v8 out v12 that is lightly stressed compared to a modern 4 or 6 that is boosted and has to rev up for power is able to be smoother and less buzzy. And the power curve is gentler as it just rides the torque. And shifts 1/10 as often with there less gears and less aggressive chasing of mpg. Also dual clutch transmissions, at least every one I’ve tried, are not as smooth as old slushbox stall converter autos when driving around casually. They work well when on it, but are clunky and jerky just around town where these cats live.
_designzio_@reddit
Run flat tires, less sidewall, larger rims
RackingUpTheMiles@reddit
And the seats are also often hard and unsupportive now too.
Buffyoh@reddit
YES. I would not swap my E320 for any new MB.
RafaelSeco@reddit
Because you can't/won't afford a newer car.
Nothing wrong with your car, but the new class is not when comparable, it's such a better car, in every way.
Heck, the new E class rides better and is more insulated from the world than the w140 that OP is raving about. And then you put it in sport mode and it will eat up a 90s supercar for breakfast, in the bends.
RafaelSeco@reddit
What you stated is not true. That answers your question
Not only do the new cars ride better, they do it on 21" wheels with suspensions capable of doing a 180 degree turn and suddenly become quite capable in the bends.
Then there's the noise insulation. It's not even close. The new s class is so much quieter than the old ones.
mattyice18@reddit
Side note: I hope you’re not too old, because it’s not a good sign if your back and hips hurt after every ride you take. New vehicle or not.
DotNo701@reddit
Because people want fast 0-60 stiff riding cars and SUVs nowadays
Spicywolff@reddit
My $$ is on modern comfort cars having MASSIVE wheels. Seriously a comfort Lexus doesn’t need 20’s to 22’s with rubber brand thin runflats.
I want 17-18’s again with non RF. My car needs 19’s to clear the brakes. If I could do 18’s I’d order wheels next day.
V48runner@reddit
A lot of it comes down to sidewall, or lack thereof. You can only get a decent amount of sidewall on a new car if you opt for the poverty spec trim. The high end always are shod with 20s or 22s, which will ride like shit.
jawnlerdoe@reddit
My base civic, which costs $17k in 2010, and now has 190k miles, rides better than than many modern cars because of the 55 ratio sidewalls. I have no idea why wheels have gotten so big.
Slowstang305@reddit
This is a valid post OP. Had a 2002 Escalade that rode much nicer that my 2015 ever did.
fullyintegratedrobot@reddit
When your torque converter sucks up like 50 horsepower, it will tend to smooth power delivery out pretty well.
caddy_gent@reddit
Because magazines like Car and Driver convinced everyone every car needs to ride and handle like an M3 to be considered good.
roman_maverik@reddit
It's really the classic product market cycle.
Just like how MacBook Pros are just Apple's regular laptops now, when 20 years ago they were strictly for design or graphics professionals.
Typical consumer = "if it's more expensive, it must be better"
Sports cars = more expensive Now everything is a marketed as a sports car
purplegoldcat@reddit
My 1972 Jaguar absolutely rides better and comfier than most modern cars. Only modern car I’ve tried that came close was a Bentley Flying Spur.
15” wheels with monster sidewalls are a gloriously cushy experience. It’s such a nice change from my 2017 Audi with its 18” wheels and large (for a modern sport sedan) sidewalls.
The_Crazy_Swede@reddit
You don't even have to go that far up the ladder. My 1995 Volvo 960 sedan is much more plush and actually even quieter than my 2015 BMW 530d with laminated side windows (acoustic insulation)
Rebellious_Rabbit@reddit
I often wonder why we entirely strayed away from those lush cushy interiors of the 80’s and 90’s. I think it was the Lincoln Towncar and maybe some Caddi’s and Buicks but they were like riding in a living room. Fantastic.
IknowwhatIhave@reddit
I've owned a low mileage W140 S-class, and I've ridden in a few modern S-class/7 Series Ubers, and I agree with you. But, the W140 S-class is a bit of a unique product in that it just happened to arrive at the point where Mercedes was still willing to spend whatever it took to make the best engineered, best built car in the world (they spent about $1 billion in 1990 developing it), AND technology had advanced to the point where engines could be smooth and silent, computer modelling could eliminate wind noise etc.
I have a really nicely restored W116 from the 70's and the build quality is exceptional, but the ride is wallowy, steering is vague, and there is wind and tire noise... just the limitations of the era.
I completely agree that most modern luxury cars are compromised by the need to feel "sporty", but you are also comparing them to perhaps the peak of automotive engineering without compromise.
To you other point, I own and daily drive a late 90's Rolls-Royce product, and I've also been fortunate to ride in a 2020 Phantom - unlike Mercedes, a modern Rolls-Royce is absolutely uncompromised when it comes to comfort, and the quality is equal to Mercedes at its peak (as it should be, at that price). A 90's Rolls is a tractor by comparison, but in a charming way. It's also the last "car for life" that they made, which is one of the reasons I have one.
dbm5@reddit
enjoyed your comparison of a 90s rolls to a tractor. lol
GrynaiTaip@reddit
I've noticed it too. I had a 1989 Mercedes W124 (sold a couple years ago), my god was it smooth. Way smoother than pretty much any other car I've ever driven.
megacookie@reddit
Car manufacturers kinda just lock you into having harsher suspension, lower profile tires, and more NVH if you want to step up from the base trim with a gutless engine and fewer creature comforts than something from 15+ years ago. Of course I'm speaking more for economy cars than luxury/performance stuff, but to some extent the point remains.
_JaredVennett@reddit
Fat Tyre walls is something we've lost over the years - it all aids into the cushioning of road imperfections. It's a conflict between engineering and product/marketing where the latter wants bigger alloys because its what normies want. So with bigger alloys something has to give hence we get rubber band tyres.
It's not just the tyre wall though, when we increase the size of the wheel we now have more mass .... unsprung mass in particular which is challenging to control over rough road. Spring rates have become stiffer too - one of the reasons for this is stability when making high speed lane changes, modern cars are faster and heavier.
If you dig deep enough into this stuff it's really interesting, especially suspension and kinematics because its something your can visually see but definitely feel.
Alarming_Magician_98@reddit
Maybe wheels
Any-Description8773@reddit
One word and it’s already been addressed: sidewalls.
These huge rims and itty bitty tires have destroyed ride quality. Sure they are great for cornering but every day driving? Absolutely not in my opinion. Give me 16” rims and a lot of sidewall so I don’t jar my teeth out with every bump I hit on the road.
rational_overthinker@reddit
1992 Buick Park Avenue with air ride enters the chat (literally a leather sofa strapped to the best v6 on earth)
dumbname0192837465@reddit
Big wheels ,thinner seats, less sound dampening. My 99 tahoe is far more comfortable of a ride than my wife's 17 escalade
Oldest_Boomer@reddit
Low profile tires. Simple as that.
Vhozite@reddit
“Too much make the ride too hard” - Tyga, Rack City
MrReadilyUnready@reddit
The thing with incredibly soft cars is they tend to have bad body roll and don't deal with low-speed bumps very well as they kind of jelly over them. There's a fine balance to be had which requires slight hardening.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
Try driving one of those older cars fast around a corner and you'll get it.
Impressive-Usual-451@reddit
My 2017 Lincoln Continental would impress you.
Frothar@reddit
Weight and wheel/alloy size.heavy cars have to have firm suspension to handle the mass. Firm means bad ride. Thin tyres around huge alloys have basically removed a layer of suspension
New_Confusion5496@reddit
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tablepennywad@reddit
Control and body roll. These huge cars are flat as F nowadays and they half to do it with 5000lbs. Its almost a miracle. Was just in my friends s2000 with new transmission. Damn did that car glide over all the bumps on the freeway. Weight.
patricktu1258@reddit
Besides those that have been mentioned, W140 is also goated luxury sedan.
Ithrazel@reddit
Car reviews prioritize handling, cornering speed, etc. So you basically get a lower score and lose group tests if you prioritize comfort
TP_Crisis_2020@reddit
We can thank auto journalists and reviewers over the last 20 years for pushing everything to be more "sporty".
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
Reviewers keep reviewing cars on the track or moaning when something isn't "sporty" enough.
mortalomena@reddit
Best ride I have been in is hands down S klass Mercedes with that Magic Ride suspension that sees potholes and holds the wheel up making it unable to drop into the pothole.
W140 feels so much more solid to drive tho.
mymomisyourfather@reddit
Besides from what has been mentioned, average performance has also increased massively. sub 6 seconds 0-60 cars are quite normal nowadays, and with more power you simply need a car that is capable of higher cornering speeds. Weight also increased massively so now you have very heavy cars with massive performance. To be able to put that through a corner at speed requires stiffer suspension and tires that roll less. Its not so much that consumers want a sporty car, but a manufacturer that builds a car that is way faster than it can handle corners is bound to receive a lot of flak
I-live-in-room-101@reddit
Bigger faster heavier cars on bigger wheels need to be stiffer to ensure road holding and safety. We hit what we asked for.
FormalIllustrator5@reddit
==> Wheels - anything 16 inch+ is overkill and useless...
==> Cars weight & speed => heavy cars that need to maintain higher average speed then the 80's - way higher, customer expectations are the bigger offender. You cant do that without stiff suspension etc...
ad81_@reddit
Big alloys, smaller sidewall and runflat tires will screw up the ride
BlackCatFurry@reddit
Wheel alloy sizes. The rubber cushions you so having big alloys means less cushion from the wheels and it needs to be compensated for with something else. I specifically chose a trim for my car that has the normal 16" alloys and not the 17" or 18" (can't remember which) because i hate how driving on low profile tires feels.
bmwm392@reddit
Modern 7 and S ride better on rough roads than their older counterparts, at least around my part of the world (we have terrible roads). I’ve driven older S classes but the new 7 for me is the most comfortable.
DangerousAd1731@reddit
Wheels
LloydDoyley@reddit
Heavier cars, skinner tyres