Possible pilot deviation! Update!
Posted by Key-System-1818@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 66 comments
Well reposting my original post with an update since for some reason my post was not visible at the time I posted it.
This morning I (CFI) departed my home airport to the practice area to practice some maneuvers. Once those were done, I decided to go to a small Delta airport (I don’t know if that airport is a contract tower) to practice landings since usually it’s not busy. I established two way radio communications and was instructed to join and report the midfield downwind for XX runway. After that, ATC told us to follow a traffic that was on the crosswind turning to downwind which we maintained visual at all times. We (I was with my student) didn’t report the midfield and when we were on final ATC called us to let us know that since we didn’t report the downwind it was a possible pilot deviation and gave us a number to call. There was enough separation between both aircraft at all times (when I landed he was already on the crosswind about to turn downwind). After that, we got cleared to the touch and go and departed the airspace. Bear in mind that we were the only two aircraft at the airport with no arrivals and no departures. I kept it cool since there is no reason for me to argue with anyone on a frequency.
Update:
After talking with the Chief Instructor, I called the number with a positive attitude. The person who answered was not the controlled who I talked to on the flight (who apparently is the boss). It was a polite conversation. He told me that even though I had the traffic insight I still had to make that downwind position report. The conversation was a minute and a half long and it ended with me apologizing for any inconvenience caused.
I still plan to file a NASA report within 10 days. I’m still mind blown that I was handed a phone number because of this, but hey we keep learning every day!
Stay safe guys!
Fisherman_30@reddit
I wish we could give brasher warnings to ATC.
PWJT8D@reddit
Every time I have to bail them out of some garbage vectors or spacing on final lmao
FlyingSak@reddit
That’s insane. The worse case scenario should be a “make sure you remember to report midfield” once you land. I fly out of a busy delta and the expectation is that if we’re told to follow traffic and we’ve reported it in sight we don’t report midfield. I’ve never gotten in trouble for not reporting midfield before.
junebug172@reddit
NASA reports are always good insurance.
Idratherbeflying21@reddit
Just saw that it might be at risk of cancellation? https://vansairforce.net/threads/aviation-safety-and-reporting-system-asrs-in-jeopardy-lets-protect-it.235719/
junebug172@reddit
Of course. Its a beneficial program that has improved aviation safety so why wouldn't it be cut.
SerbianRief@reddit
Does it take up any more resources other than a ten minute review? I figure atc did it as some sort of weird lesson.
Dave92F1@reddit
Controller was in a bad mood. I expect nothing at all to come of this, but worst realistic case is that you get a finger wagging from the FAA and they make you read a magazine article about how important it is to do what ATC says. Be apologetic and show that you're willing to shape up and that'll be the end of it. (You really should have made the call as instructed but this is not that big a deal.)
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
question: prior to the Brasher warning, were you not curious about the lack of a landing clearance as you steamed ahead on final?
to be clear, I think the Brasher was heavy-handed and a waste of everybody's time here
akav8r@reddit
Fly a normal pattern, even if you don't have a landing clearance. The whole don't turn base until you have a landing clearance is a myth that keeps getting passed down by people who don't know what they are talking about.
DogeLikestheStock@reddit
I had never heard of that until I flew a bit of general aviation. I fly a normal pattern unless specifically told to extend my downwind and I query tower about landing clearance as I turn base.
General aviation also told me that I can’t taxi on runways on uncontrolled fields after hours. The group think CFIs said I’d get a deviation. Like what? From who? It’s uncontrolled. What if it’s just a runway with no taxi ways?
I think a lot of this comes from big 141 school SOPs where they do things a specific way at the specific airport they train.
standardtemp2383@reddit
This will get you killed and a number to call in any busy airport
akav8r@reddit
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not…
standardtemp2383@reddit
So you just blindly turn base without a clearance, not told to follow any traffic? Good adm
akav8r@reddit
100%, yes. That's what the controller is expecting you to do. You start extending your downwind on your own, you start fucking up the sequence. I don't know if you realize... but I'm a controller... not just some pilot who is passing down bad information like you are.
standardtemp2383@reddit
You are contradicting yourself in your own comments. So you’re gonna turn base to cut someone off on final because you shouldn’t extend downwind on your own? What are you actually saying 😂
gbchaosmaster@reddit
I fly at one of the busiest Deltas in the country and if you don’t turn base when you should because you don’t have a landing clearance they’ll put someone in front of you lol.
TobyADev@reddit
lmao wat I always get landing clearance on final
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
If you're always getting your landing clearance on final while flying 152s and Cherokees in the pattern, you must be flying some ridiculously large patterns.
If I'm flying a pattern in a trainer like that, I'm less than one minute away from the threshold when I roll out on final.
And yes, I'm asking questions if I get that close to the runway without a landing clearance.
TobyADev@reddit
Probably a minute or so for final, maybe 1.5 minutes at a push. Plenty of time to call final and be cleared to land
The one time I’ve ever felt uncomfortable was about 10 seconds prior to landing when I was almost going to go around
But that’s quite usual over here. Always had landing clearance on final, eg if there’s another aircraft ahead on the runway about to vacate, and I’m turning from base to final
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
You said it yourself. He should have received a landing clearance earlier in the pattern.
But he didn't, and seemingly didn't question that until he got close enough to the runway for this passive-aggressive controller to make his little point.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
I never said anything about not turning base before getting a landing clearance. That's ridiculous.
However, being on final in a normal-sized trainer pattern and not having a landing clearance, especially at a non-busy field as OP described it, should be cause for some reflection and questions.
Asking the question about the landing clearance before the controller spoke up may have prevented the Brasher, as it would have shown some level of self awareness after missing the requested report.
Front the controllers perspective, OP was just going to Leroy Jenkins his way to touchdown without requisite reports or a landing clearance, and he felt the need to teach a lesson, deserved or not.
akav8r@reddit
The moment I'm told to follow someone... I'm not reporting anything. Sequence has been set. Trust me... this was just some shitty controller, sounds like a contract tower, who was being an asshole only for the sake of being an asshole.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
You said it yourself. He should have received a landing clearance earlier in the pattern.
But he didn't, and seemingly didn't question that until he got close enough to the runway for this passive-aggressive controller to make his little point.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
The trick my CFI taught me was don't turn your landing light on until you get your landing clearance. That way if you can't remember if you were cleared you just glance down and check if your landing light is on. Obviously you could also just ask the tower to clarify, but it helps to have another indicator as well.
zeropapagolf@reddit
No way. Every light I’ve got is on before I get near the airport. I want every advantage for helping the plane I don‘t see, see me.
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
Ok, then you do you and I'll just keep doing my own thing.
zeropapagolf@reddit
Agreed. An excellent strategy!
akav8r@reddit
I like having my landing light on at all times in a busy area (close to an airport, pattern, etc...).
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
I feel like the strobes and nav are enough, I'll throw on the taxi light if its really busy, but in a C172 they're right next to each other anyways.
No_Vermicelli_6402@reddit
Not. That. Serious.
yeahgoestheusername@reddit
Plot twist: You should have given the controller a number to call for possible ATC overreaction. But I’m glad both sides were professional on the call and it didn’t turn into anything bigger.
Familiar_Eye_4128@reddit
I was gonna say the same thing.
Blue_Razor_@reddit
Just because atc told you to follow someone doesn't mean you can neglect the most basic of radio communications. If you were told to report midfield, you report midfield to get your landing clearance. The fact that I understand this better than a cfi while only being a pre-stage 1 check student pilot is fucking scary
TobyADev@reddit
The fact that you have a big ego enough to think you are better than an instructor as a “pre-stage 1 check student” is fucking scary. Pipe down, ego a bit smaller perhaps
Blue_Razor_@reddit
There's no ego in what I said, it's genuinely scary someone this forgetful has a cfi rating
TobyADev@reddit
“This forgetful” forgets to make a downwind call. You just wait til you’re licensed and you’ll forget one too. Or maybe another.
No one is perfect, you’ll find that out when you go up more
Blue_Razor_@reddit
You've been licensed for two months, but oh, how nice of you to grace me with your superior wisdom.
"No one is perfect" no shit Sherlock, you're a shining example of that
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up forgetting the downwind call, OP literally said atc told him to make it. Not doing something atc tells you to do, at their airport, is by definition a pilot deviation and OP should be thanking his lucky stars he still has any kind of license
TobyADev@reddit
Thanks for proving my point. Further to that if you seriously think you’ll lose your licence over not making a downwind call then either you’ve been lied to or your view of the CAA / FAA is warped
I know that I’m human and people forget things and I know that someone forgetting something doesn’t make them a bad pilot, which is what you’re implying
If it makes you feel any better, far worse happens at airports which people keep their licenses for. Doesn’t mean they should lose their license
Trying to have the moral high ground, which it sounds like is what you’re doing, won’t earn you any brownie points.
Absolutely you should be laser focused on flying, and on not forgetting things - but accepting it happens and that mistakes can and DO happen is a hugely important part of aviation; and an attitude of “everything must be perfect and we can’t make mistakes” is worse than actually making one
Blue_Razor_@reddit
If you GENUINELY THINK not making a midfield call maybe five, at most seven minutes after being instructed to give one, and by extension, landing without proper clearance, is okay, maybe you, too, should consider alternative career opportunities.
Yuri909@reddit
We all genuinely hope you aren't going airlines. You are the problem. You're a loud, mouthed, arrogant moron who doesn't know anything. One radio call is not the end of the world. You're a baby student who is fresh in the material and thinks you'll never make a mistake. You have a dangerous attitude that doesn't belong in the cockpit or around other human beings with functional brains or empathy. I'm going to guess you're very young still and have a lot to learn about participating in society.
Objective_Flight3620@reddit
Say it louder! I just read through the back and forth… jeez. It’s ok to be new. It’s ok to inexperienced. It’s ok to have the humility to learn and grow. It’s not ok to have this guys attitude. If he makes it, he’ll be “that guy”. No one wants to be “that guy”
TobyADev@reddit
Absolutely. Being new - totally fine. We all have been and hell I’m new
Having an attitude of never making a mistake is dangerous
TobyADev@reddit
Thankfully I’m not a commercial pilot
phew. Dodged that one guys! /s
And if you get “cleared to land/touch and go”, then you’re cleared to land/touch and go. Not sure about over there but once we hear those words, regardless of a downwind call, you’re good
A lack of a call doesn’t invalidate a landing clearance. That’s a totally different thing
Go and ask your instructor, if you really are a student and not a troll, what their view is
Bot_Marvin@reddit
If that’s your standard for losing a license, every single ATP would have lost it by now.
Blue_Razor_@reddit
If you think a deviation this bad (i.e., could cause a runway incursion or worse, a collision) shouldn't result in a license suspension or, at the very least, a mandatory flight review, please consider alternative career choices
TobyADev@reddit
I think the word could is quite important in what you just said. So nothing happened in those situations. That’s probably why a penalty, if any, is rather lenient
It’s funny you’re telling people with commercial licenses who have far more hours and experience than you to consider other careers. Surely you’re trolling
Bot_Marvin@reddit
Again, we would have no pilots left. An error of this level happens every single day at the 121 level.
Objective_Flight3620@reddit
And what hazardous attitude are we displaying today?
185EDRIVER@reddit
You having the traffic doesn't mean you don't have to report it.
With that being said it happens and they can always follow up with you to get a number for that is crazy
mustang__1@reddit
Wow. I never made a mistake like that. Never ever missed a "report 2 mile final". Sheesh. the people that become pilots today!
/s
RelevantMountain6357@reddit
Latest guidance is that FAA is looking at the attitude of the pilot. Responding promptly, acknowledging a mistake, being open to learning, etc, all communicate that this is unlikely to happen again. Most pilot deviations are resolved after the first phone call and require no further action from the pilot.
Federal-Mind3420@reddit
If they didn't ask for your name, address, and pilot cert # when you called, then they didn't file the PPD.
CaptMcMooney@reddit
shrug, you will get a call from the FAA, explain what happened and how you'll correct in the future, own it, take responsibility. maybe do some pattern work with a cfii so you can show the FAA guy you did something. Good chance, that'll be the end of it.
TobyADev@reddit
Won’t even come to that lol
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
What? You don’t just automatically get a call from the FAA. Do you really expect an ASI to call OP? What are they gonna say? “Hey man just don’t forget to call midfield next time”
CaptMcMooney@reddit
you can always hope and pray.
They called me after a radio failed resulting in a missed atc call. switched to my backup, reestablished comms, got a number and called atc. Explained how my radio PHysically disassembled itself in flight after which atc kindly explained the importance of maintaining contact. Note this was out in the boondocks of mississippi, somewhere between memphis and shreveport, not busy airspace at all.
received a call from the FAA guy following up a month later.
ATACB@reddit
lol this is stupid lost coms exist for a reason
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
There’s always a chance to get a call from them but OP is not going to get a call because they forgot to mention they were in the downwind. OP was still in contact with the tower.
sykocus@reddit
Issuing a brasher for not reporting midfield is small pee pee energy.
Pseudo-Jonathan@reddit
The amount of explanation you gave about how you had visual on the traffic at all times and how there was separation from the traffic at all times makes me think it has some bearing on why you didn't make the midfield downwind radio call. Did you accidentally forget to make the call or did you for some reason think that you didn't need to make the call anymore because of the traffic situation?
ebs757@reddit
Someone was in a bad mood.. that is ridiculous
nem636@reddit
Congratulations and thank you for the update.
Your update is sure to help some of us in the future.
autonym@reddit
*in sight (visible), not insight (penetrating comprehension)
They're even pronounced differently (insight has emphasis on the first syllable).
hagrids_a_pineapple@reddit
That’s insane you got a number for that.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Well reposting my original post with an update since for some reason my post was not visible at the time I posted it.
This morning I (CFI) departed my home airport to the practice area to practice some maneuvers. Once those were done, I decided to go to a small Delta airport (I don’t know if that airport is a contract tower) to practice landings since usually it’s not busy. I established two way radio communications and was instructed to join and report the midfield downwind for XX runway. After that, ATC told us to follow a traffic that was on the crosswind turning to downwind which we maintained visual at all times. We (I was with my student) didn’t report the midfield and when we were on final ATC called us to let us know that since we didn’t report the downwind it was a possible pilot deviation and gave us a number to call. There was enough separation between both aircraft at all times (when I landed he was already on the crosswind about to turn downwind). After that, we got cleared to the touch and go and departed the airspace. Bear in mind that we were the only two aircraft at the airport with no arrivals and no departures. I kept it cool since there is no reason for me to argue with anyone on a frequency.
Update:
After talking with the Chief Instructor, I called the number with a positive attitude. The person who answered was not the controlled who I talked to on the flight (who apparently is the boss). It was a polite conversation. He told me that even though I had the traffic insight I still had to make that downwind position report. The conversation was a minute and a half long and it ended with me apologizing for any inconvenience caused.
I still plan to file a NASA report within 10 days. I’m still mind blown that I was handed a phone number because of this, but hey we keep learning every day!
Stay safe guys!
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