Audi Isn't Abandoning Gas-Fed Engines for EVs by 2033 Like It Planned.
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 90 comments
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 90 comments
omgasnake@reddit
We are about to witness a lot of backtracking as OEMs realize they were far too ambitious and bullish on electrification
Recoil42@reddit
There's a whole collection going already at r/ToyotaWasRight
Pretty much every automaker has already backtracked significantly, and the only exceptions I can really think of are Toyota and BMW, who were both pretty cautious with their approaches and relatively guarded with their statements.
Even then both of those companies have reduced their plans a bit — but not significantly, mind you.
Skodakenner@reddit
Probably gonna get downvoted but BMW is the only company that did EVs right. They didnt change too much compared to the ICE model kept design the same and the platform is the same as well so they can keep making ICE cars or EVs at the same time
6786_007@reddit
Yeah I feel too many manufactures tried to re-invent the car along with electrification. Just make it a normal car that's electric.
Rich-Ant2524@reddit
this is revisionist history though - people generally hated when OEMs did this, such as with the e-golf and mini electric, saying that it was hacky to just take a ICE car and tack on a battery instead of making a bespoke car.
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
Wondering if they were trying to emulate Chinese OEMs. They've quite successfully reinvented the EV car but that's evidently a very different market from the West.
pdp10@reddit
They have? The western enthusiasm seems to be that they're normal EVs, but cheaper.
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
The Seagull is their mass economy model. Their luxury models and brands from like Zeekr are incredible. The latest Shanghai auto show opened a lot of eyes.
yetiflask@reddit
Gotta agree.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
Weren't Subaru and Mazda the same as well? Subaru just released their first EV last year, along with Toyota, and it was so bad that it made me wonder why they were bothering.
Recoil42@reddit
Yes. Subaru and Mazda pretty much the same, they haven't needed to change their plans too much. I believe Subaru and Mazda are both small manufacturers under the California rules though, so they get a bit of a asterisk attached to them.
As to why Subaru took it easy on the Solterra, the reason is pretty much that. Most other manufacturers spent too much money development, too early. They haven't made anything back, and in many cases have taken huge losses.
Toyota and Subaru got to reuse a bunch of parts from their hybrids, and put the focus on industrialization rather than blowing your socks off with specs to brag about on day one. Those companies are going to do really well because they waited and conserved capital.
Look at the 2026 Solterra, it's already gotten a refresh and a huge spec bump.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
...did they expect to sell 2M Mach E's or something? They don't have an EV lineup
six_six@reddit
lol wonderful subreddit name
Agree-With-Above@reddit
Combination of a lot of reasons:
OEMs saw the Tesla stock prices surge and thought we wanted some of that. They thought EVs = high stock prices. Wall Street was betting heavily on it. Morgan Stanley had a report that said they value all ICE (engine) investments/vehicles as zero because that's not the future.
Initial Tier4 emissions regulations mandated that OEMs absolutely MUST have an X% of their production as pure EVs cars. Sell at a loss if you have to. It has to be at least X%.
Government policy at that 2019-2022ish time frame was really pushing for electrification as it coincided with various elections around the world. Promising electrification was a good pitch.
China EVs have started to really grow, and outside OEMs did not want to lose market share and the profits there.
So those factors combined to result in the OEMs and CEOs trying to massively hype up EVs to try and get you to buy them. And the "promise"/"threat" that by 20XX we will be all EV. So you might as well buy them now!
But then inflation, charging infrastructure, battery costs, politics, etc. resulted in ultimately EV market share stagnating at 10% in the US. Tier4 regulations were changed so that PHEVs with at least 50 miles of battery range can also be considered "Zero Emissions". The X% production mandate was removed. And various other factors resulted in now OEMs backtracking on their EV "promises".
pdp10@reddit
California CARB tried that sort of "tehnological forcing" in 1990. The first non-compliance EV, a two-door roadster, didn't ship until 18 years later.
California eventually decided that a base Ford Focus was a "Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle". And to be fair, the air coming out of that Focus's tailpipe was cleaner than ambient air in the L.A. basin.
CashKeyboard@reddit
There's a pretty neat line between German legacy OEMs who figured out their electrification strategy (VW, BMW, Cupra/Seat) who really don't need backtracking and those who didn't (Mercedes, Audi) and need backtracking.
pdp10@reddit
VAG is Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, brands, isn't it?
strongmanass@reddit
One thing that always gets overlooked in these announcements is that a very large part of these companies' electrification plans depend on governments and other entities making EVs attractive and feasible for the buying public. Car companies can make the best EV in the world, but if that's not supported by concurrent, robust, well-publicized investment in charging infrastructure, grid expansion, and incentives, then the public won't want EVs and there's nothing the auto makers can do about it.
What we're seeing is failure of the support structure for EVs resulting in auto makers extending their ICE offerings and delaying EVs.
bfire123@reddit
I mean - they very well could build a extremly good charging network themselves.
They certianly can shape the future if they want to.
pdp10@reddit
VAG found itself in an idel position to do that, and seemingly decided not to bother despite spending the money.
natesully33@reddit
Since most new car buyers can charge at home (the number I saw for the US from a quick google is 4/5 of new car buyers) I think we have plenty of infrastructure for commuting. For road trips, things could be better but popular routes through big cities are just fine - I've done enough trips to know firsthand. Not saying we shouldn't invest, just that I'm not sure that's really what holds new car buyers back. Used car buyers without charging certainly need some investment but that's not what is preventing the sales of new electric cars right now.
I do agree we need more incentives, I've seen surveys where cost is one of the biggest reasons people stick with ICE. I don't blame them, the price premium for EVs is pretty high right now, at least in the US, other than on a few models. Automakers probably expected more help there and it certainly isn't coming in the US for a while.
There's also politics, FUD, culture stuff, etc. and I'm really not sure what the solution for that is, automakers could get their dealers to help a bit with educating buyers but those problems run pretty deep. The only way to deal with that is likely really strong incentives which only some places in the world are really going to do.
There are also a minority of "never electric" buyers, people with a niche use case for which an EV would not work very well (nothing wrong with that) or an emotional attachment to combustion. I get the impression that they are a small minority of new car buyers though, and since niche models will likely be ICE for a while I'm not sure any of that really matters.
Yeah, automakers are kind of stuck in a hard place, they'd like to get EV models out and be ready for the future but need policy support worldwide to do so. And that is only happening in a few countries really.
pdp10@reddit
The absolutist positions sometimes being taken by politicians and activists is creating an us-versus-them tribalism about an issue that's really individual choice.
But isn't that usually the case?
vontdman@reddit
Thinking about people living in rentals and apartments with only street parking - not having decent charging infrastructure in these scenarios is a huge issue for uptake.
mk1power@reddit
Or older homes with maxed out electrical panels. A $400 charger install becomes a lot more expensive.
pdp10@reddit
Lower current charging is often entirely adequate.
thefanciestcat@reddit
I live in a 100+ unit apartment complex with enough parking for each unit and additional rentable parking available. They are marketed as luxury apartments in affluent, car-centric Southern California. We have exactly 2 chargers.
aprtur@reddit
Ditto, but on the east coast and we have two chargers with the capability to charge four vehicles.
strongmanass@reddit
Yeah that's a big one. There are some proposals to add limited street charging in soke cities, but that's a problem that needs to be solved generally.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
I live in a suburban apartment type home, and we have street parking only, and they cant even fix streetlights, I doubt they will install and maintain chargers.
yetiflask@reddit
If you need incentives, it means your product is shit.
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
You'd be surprised by how many things in our lives are floated by incentives...
DudeDudenson@reddit
What do you mean my third world country that has frequent blackouts every summer can't go all electric in 10 years? The politician said it's the future!!!
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
That sounds like we should let Chinese automakers selling their EVs to us and not blocking.
I doubt people would care poor charging infrastructure if Chinese automakers can offer very good deals.
CoincidentalLimerenc@reddit
Have you ever thought about why Chinese cars are so cheap? Have you ever actually took a moment and tried to come up with some answers on your own? The Chinese model is at best unsustainable and at its worst incredibly immoral and environmentally unethical.
ChuckWorx@reddit
It was the plan from the beginning. Easy to make lofty promises a decade out.
TurboFucked@reddit
These companies made such announcements, in part, because the public markets heavily favored EV manufactures. At one point, Tesla was approaching the market cap of Toyota.
If you're on the board of one of these companies, you see this as an unambiguous signal to transition into EVs (or at least appear so).
This isn't just a car industry issue either. Pretty much every industry goes through trends like this, and business are somewhat forced into doing stupid shit to please public markets. It's like when public markets went insane for blockchain and suddenly drink manufactures were "pivoting" into that space.
I'm a cofounder in a startup and our pitch decks have to include "AI" even though it's not really core to our business. We'll present at events and our product outperforms everyone else, but the "winner" will always be the company that bolted on some commodity AI BS onto the side of their product.
Running a successful business involves paying just enough lip service to public investor stupidity, while also keeping an eye on the real needs that the market will have in 2-4-8 years. It sounds like VAG navigated this successfully, they built some solid EV platforms that will keep in the game should EVs plan out, but they also kept iterating on their core ICE drivelines / platforms. They benefit from having a diverse product portfolio though.
pdp10@reddit
If they kept up with competitive non-EV design all this time, then yes. If they're scrambling to do five years' worth of design in two years, then no.
Available_Win5204@reddit
Approaching the market cap of Toyota? Tesla is 4X Toyota's MC.
six_six@reddit
The demand plummets when the govt subsidies disappear.
phxees@reddit
Yeah seat belts were the same way, few would wear them until governments threatened fines. Click it or ticket was a huge motivation. Individually we’re smart collectively we’re stupid.
Sorry-Comment3888@reddit
That's not the same at all lol
phxees@reddit
Okay.
Yes they are literally different, but they are both about the safety of humans. One is short term and very obvious. The other is based on science and takes thought. They are the same because they both are taking government regulation to push consumers in the right direction.
Sorry-Comment3888@reddit
One is based on a huge overhaul of available infrastructure, large cost increases and involves large time increases to be able to utilize your vehicle, one is a simple click.....
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Idk if it’s backtracking as much as the US is peeling back a lot of its stringent requirements so the automakers don’t have to build cars they don’t want to build
ChiTruckDGAF@reddit
I'd rather have a lighter car, personally.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
That’s what I’m saying
ChiTruckDGAF@reddit
4,300 lbs is still. . .enormous.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
For a 17 foot long car? Not really
ChiTruckDGAF@reddit
Yes. It sucks.
ThePretzul@reddit
That’s the entire point he’s making.
You legally cannot have the lighter car. Because they need to meet certain U.S. metrics for overall lineup fuel economy and hybrid/electric requirements.
It’s the same reason you can’t buy wagons in the U.S. anymore really, because a crossover/SUV counts as a “light truck” and is held to less stringent efficiency requirements that are possible without pissing off customers by giving them a shitty anemic inline-3.
yetiflask@reddit
They were political statements, they all knew it was BS.
DeviousMelons@reddit
New thing comes up, hype builds up and big companies go full into this, technology is not ready or perfect, hype dies and companies backtrack to the detriment to themselves and the new thing.
Happened to Virtual reality too.
Ill_Captain_8967@reddit
The previous U.S. administration was too zealous, the EU has a terrible energy policy and cannot support it, and the Chinese for all the people who suck up to there EV dominance forgets they heavily subsidized that industry to undercut American and European manufacturers. EVs have a place but you cannot force people to purchase them.
Prudent_Reindeer9627@reddit
Doesn't most of the world live in apartment buildings? EVs are not practical unless you have reliable convenient charging.
TurboFucked@reddit
Which is the case for a lot of folks. There's a lot more charging infrastructure around that people who don't need to think about it realize. It's just not so in your face as it used to be as most places install them off to the side, or around back of the building to ensure they are available for customers.
Plugshare shows 1000+ chargers within a 15 minute drive of where I live. Most grocery stores and shopping plazas have them, the local gyms do, as do larger gas stations, car dealerships, office parks.
I've known a few apartment dwellers who owned EVs as their only vehicle, it's not a big deal.
AllTearGasNoBreaks@reddit
I think its the off-site time it takes to charge that will keep people from adopting. If I can plug in at my apartment a couple nights a week, cool. But spending 45 minutes at the charging station a couple times a week would be a deal breaker. 3-5 minutes at the gas station is already annoying.
markeydarkey2@reddit
45 minutes is one thing but I've been fast-charging once a week while waiting to get an L2 EVSE installed at my new place and it's not so bad when those charges are like 15 minutes.
ThePretzul@reddit
Filling up your gas tank takes 2 minutes or less.
15 minutes isn’t as difficult to manage, but it’s still a major downgrade compared to the current standard people are used to.
markeydarkey2@reddit
I just mean to say it's not the worst thing, I plug the car in and sit on my phone inside while it's charging with the AC/heat on. There's a grocery store next to it I occasionally shop at too.
Sorry-Comment3888@reddit
Still minimal electric adoption . What about when there's 20-30 EVs jockying for that charger that takes 15 min a piece . Ouch.
Sorry-Comment3888@reddit
1000 chargers in 15 min...hiw many cars total in that 15 min area? Couple with the fact tge time it takes to charge an EV compared to fill a gas tank. Those numbers don't look good to me.
AAA-VR6@reddit
My landlord will not allow an EV charger or let us plug in a hybrid. So everyone where I live drives full internal combustion cars. This is in California.
Supreme1337@reddit
This is BS. Living in an apartment doesn't mean there is no practical way to charge your EV. You just need enough public chargers on the sidewalk. I live in an apartment, I drive an EV, and I decided to forego installing a charger in my garage parking space, since it's so easy to charge in public.
I realize the infrastructure isn't this good everywhere, but if it works here, it can work in other places too.
6786_007@reddit
I tried asking my HOA about getting chargers installed. O boy did they really make it a hassle.
First the guy said they would need create plans and apply for approvals and permits. Then to allocate the spots from the lot to make dedicated charging spots. Next they would have power ran to where they want to install the chargers. Then they would have to find a way manage the cost and billing for that power. Afterwards some vendor would have to install their chargers. Once that's all done they would need a maintenance plan and how to cover the costs by raising HOA fees or whatever. And all that if enough people want it. By the guys estimate, the project would take nearly 2 years with all the hoopla and what not.
Walking around my neighborhood there is only 1 EV car. And this was just last year I inquired about getting chargers installed.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
Everything that guy said sounds reasonable. If you want chargers in a community, then someone has to go through the business of getting them installed and then someone has to pay for the maintenance.
6786_007@reddit
I'm replying to a comment above saying having street chargers is easy.
Obviously it will cost money. But also I'm saying no one is willing to pay for it in my neighborhood.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
I was more replying to you saying they made it a hassle.
6786_007@reddit
Fair.
I could see street side charger a good idea by the county or city in less traveled areas. We have many streets with street parkikg and that wouldn't be a bad spot for chargers.
7148675309@reddit
Issue is public charging can be very expensive. In the UK - typically costs more than filling a tank of petrol. So there’s no benefit unless you can charge at home, or it’s free at work.
Supreme1337@reddit
That really sucks... in my case the city itself is the main provider of public charging, and they do so at a pretty good price. More expensive than home electricity, but cheaper than paying for petrol, and also cheap enough that paying thousands to have a home charger installed isn't worth it (unless you drive a lot).
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
Majority of people live in single family housing.
SupposablyAtTheZoo@reddit
And the non majority can suck it then?
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
No, obviously we still need better infrastructure, but majority is much more than the 10% who are buying new evs. I don’t understand what the animosity is about.
Prudent_Reindeer9627@reddit
where is that?!?
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
Us, sorry should’ve clarified.
InclinationCompass@reddit
This is why I haven’t gotten on the EV bandwagon. My state offers a $10k rebate for new EV purchases that I’ve been wanting to take advantage of.
Sorry-Comment3888@reddit
Is anyone shocked. Techs/infrastructure is not there yet and consumers are not interested.
EngagedGroomsPodcast@reddit
The EV will they won’t they whiplash continues!
pzpzpz24@reddit
I think everyone knew this. Even the lawmakers in EU who've made claims to ban ICE by 2030s know that it isn't a feasible goal.
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
Koch brothers spent their money wisely it seems...
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Probably some.
But a large percentage of americans live where it just doesnt make sense to own an EV... like Apartments, or rural areas that dont have easy access to public charging unless you want to go sit in a empty parking lot for an hour charging.
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
A majority of Americans live in single family homes in the suburbs or metros, even those in 2 or 3 family homes can very easily install chargers, or just use the 120v outlet, like my girlfriend is doing currently. I understand apartments make it harder, but given where people live in the us, I'm shocked that only 10% of new sales in the us are either BEV of PHEV. We're so behind here its crazy.
Bluecolt@reddit
Behind on what? People buy what they want, and it seems the majority still want ICE even if that majority lives in SFRs.
Mysterious_Bonus5101@reddit
Behind on ev adoption. The rest of the world is moving forward.
smokeey@reddit
Yup old news now VAG is planning development on the 2.0 EA888 through 2035. The new sportier Tiguan already has the gen 5 for 2026.
grant0208@reddit
Everyone saw this coming. They’d sell a fraction of what they currently do in the States
su1ac0@reddit
no, reddit told me with great reverence that this was an inevitable future
su1ac0@reddit
reddit in shambles, who could have seen this coming
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
I’ve always assumed that manufactures will make and sell whatever is legal to be made and sold, and whatever will make them money. I do not put any stock in any of the marketing, and these “plans” are exactly that, designed to signal something the company thinks the market will value/talk about.
thefanciestcat@reddit
These EV only declarations always seemed overly optimistic, but having to go back on them so soon after feels downright incompetent.