'It’s True, “We” Don’t Care About Accessibility on Linux' — TheEvilSkeleton
Posted by IverCoder@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 201 comments
The section It All Trickles Down to “GNOME Bad” is especially a must read for a lot of people here
zersiax@reddit
I'm a fully blind content creator covering accessibility on all sorts of levels and (GNU)/Linux is a topic that comes up. Yesterday's stream, likely one of a number of consecutive ones, made a small start on the issue of "we're told to move away from big tech, preferably yesterday, but can we, from an accessibility perspective?". Nothing Linux came up in that particular stream but the next one will likely dig into this a little more, particularly first-time setting up experiences for various distros, which are anywhere from quite good to absolutely awful.
Reason I bring this up is that this article resonates with a point I've been making when these discussions come up. Yes, people with disabilities such as myself are one of the victims of the current state of Linux accessibility (and yes, I am generalizing deliberately here), but current maintainers who inherited the house of cards they were left with are, as well, both because of the mess they have to clean up but also because of the avalanches of (righteous) anger, annoyance and overall done-ness they have to face from, at times, the very people they're trying to work on accessibility for.
I myself use Kali for cybersecurity purposes, but only for the bits Kali is needed for and usually through SSH from a Windows host.
I honestly don't know if I could recommend anyone to "just switch to Linux" because they don't like the business practices of big tech at this point, because if that's your reason for switching and you expect a more or less equivalent experience after the switch you just aren't going to get that currently, and accessibility having been in the state it's in for how long it has makes it very difficult for me personally to take any commitment at face value, which again, is incredibly unfair to the people who make that commitment because more often than not they weren't even there yet when things were at their worst, see also: fireborn's posts referred to in OP's article.
All I can say is ...as a person with a disability, I do massively appreciate the work OP, as well as many others, are putting into making things better. Keep ding what you do, if you can and if it doesn't drive you too far round the bend. As an accessibility professional who also needs things to be accessible I viscerally know the struggle, and I can only thank you and others for sticking with it in spite of that. If I can help at all, by giving the work you do more screentime so more people see it and more (disabled) people learn about the efforts being done to improve things, please let me know and I'll happily boost that signal. More importantly though... please try enjoy your sunday :)
Delta-9-@reddit
I never understood all the GNOME hate. Like, what people loved GNOME2 so much they went and made Maté, but somehow it's GNOME's fault you have preferences? It looks a little too much like Aqua?
I have my complaints about GNOME, too, and it's not my favorite DE, but it's solid. There's a reason it's the default DE for most major distros.
tajetaje@reddit
I don't care so much about GNOME, more when their decisions impact other desktops and software. The lack of any server side decorations means apps need to implement CSD just for GNOME, their stakeholders have slowed down a number of Wayland protocols that have help back major software from moving to Wayland, etc.
InfiniteSheepherder1@reddit
Do you know what protocols it seems like people throw this around without ever saying what protocols and what gnome contributor. Last I talked to someone about it they said GNOME held up the tearing protocol, but i looked at the gitlab discussion and couldn't find a GNOME dev voting down the proposal.
Simon Ser was probably the most negative in being critical of some implementations, but he is the lead dev of Sway not a main GNOME contributor, and votes for wlroots/Sway. Even then he didn't vote against implementing it.
One of the first commenters on it was a GNOME contributor who liked it, there was no GNOME voting against it and holding it up. They were a bit slower at getting it implemented, but they mostly wanted to wait for the protocol to be finalized and to finish VRR work, but nothing they did prevented implementation for others.
In some others sure had a GNOME dev was maybe critical but other devs were for it. Flatpak and the XDG Portals came from GNOME which have really pushed things forward.
tajetaje@reddit
zones, toplevel icon, yes there was some bike shedding on tearing, anything to do with cross desktop taskbar anything (menus, icons, etc.), I think there’s a couple more but I don’t recall the names
nightblackdragon@reddit
So basically you didn't check it and you are just saying that because you don't like GNOME and someone on the Internet said that GNOME blocks other desktops?
Previous_Age2904@reddit
What makes you think sharpness is a metric?
nightblackdragon@reddit
Nothing because I didn't think about it.
Previous_Age2904@reddit
It's a reference to this.
nightblackdragon@reddit
I didn't get it, my bad.
FengLengshun@reddit
For the most part, I'm fine with GNOME as it is. It was fine when I used it, but it didn't fit my usecase. I always ended up installing so much extensions, which breaks after update, that it's honestly pointless for me to use something that just clearly doesn't fit my need and my preferences.
The problem, for me, is Gtk. Gtk has very much become the Gnome Toolkit, it and libadwaita are made for use with Gnome designs in mind. Which has its set of positive and negative, but for me, I simply do not enjoy it.
It does boil down to the classic CSD issue. As a KDE user, there's a lot of things that the SSD can do. For starters, right clicking brings Gtk context menu, rather than KDE much more complete context menu. Custom actions on it doesn't work - I can't scroll on titlebar to move a window through workspaces or shade the window. Can't dismiss the headerbar to get more space in my limited screen real estate. No global menu, menubar, and menu icon in titlebar. And for that matters, it barely supports moving window icons to the left and changing the order, not the other icons like for keep on top and pin to all workspaces.
Mind, this is just a distaste. These days, I can deal with it for the most part, since I barely use any of them beyond stuff like Bottles (which I barely interact after setup, it just slots in as a replacement for Wine in file manager). Also, there are gtk3-nocsd/gtk3-classic and libadwaita-without-adwaita on AUR, plus tweaking scripts/tools in general has advanced. So it's not a big deal, just personal preference since you can more easily avoid interacting with many things Gnome these days.
Also, aside for that, uh... How should I put this. If there's a Wayland protocol or something, and there is someone disagreeing the proposal. For some reason it tends to be related to Gnome. Mind, I think they have a right to express their opinion as well, and as the amount of members in freedesktop council for various protocols exist, they are increasingly becoming the minority. But it was a... Trend, if nothing else. The xdg-toplevel-icons one was a mess.
Maykey@reddit
GNOME is very opinionated. There's nothing wrong with it if you don't mind their opinions. If you do mind and don't want to rely on extensions that might break, you either hate GNOME or don't use it. Considering how many alternatives there are I feel it's easier to not use it.
the_party_galgo@reddit
Gnome is very counterintuitive for someone who is used to a traditional desktop. It needs extensions for everything, Plasma and Cinnamon are plug and play, you can tweak everything very easily and they also feel a lot faster on old hardware. For me, I just don't see any advantages of this desktop environment comparatively.
Thermawrench@reddit
You don't use it like a traditional desktop. MacOS is used like MacOS, Windows like Windows, most DE's like the traditional desktop experience and then there's Gnome that's very Gnome and is used in a Gnome way.
Delta-9-@reddit
The need for extensions for things that I consider basic features of a DE, like a system tray analogue, certainly is annoying... but I wouldn't say one needs extensions for "everything." I think my most complex GNOME3 rice only used two or three, and they were mere conveniences—not even missing features (I didn't need a system tray at that time).
I'll give you that one unequivocally, though. Personally I liked that, as right about the time I got into Linux I was also flirting with the idea that the desktop metaphor might be holding back UI design. These days I actually think of GNOME as a decent gateway into tiling WMs like awesome or i3, where the desktop metaphor is completely absent.
It also has a lot in common with Aqua. Whether that's good or bad is pretty subjective, but it does make it accessible to users familiar with macOS.
All that said, lest I sound like a fanboy, I do have my own complaints. While I'm happy with most of its defaults, some of the things I'd like to change are hard to change. Settings, Gnome Tweaks, and Dconf Editor? Why? The whole extension thing was a wonderful idea... until there just aren't enough people on Linux desktop to drive a healthy extension ecosystem—like half of the extensions out there haven't been updated in years and don't work. And it's weirdly incompatible with a feature of my terminal emulator that I'd like to use but works on every WM except GNOME. I was also aware the project's culture is very opinionated and obstinate, which I'm not a huge fan of—being super opinionated was one of my big complaints about Aqua, too—like, I want to do things a slightly different way, so let me!
But, it's good enough that I don't have the motivation to put a different WM on my workstation and then deal with it when the company software that's only tested with GNOME inevitably breaks. I'd be just as ambivalent had they given me KDE or Cinnamon (probably).
the_party_galgo@reddit
I'm on cinnamon rn, after years of kde. Also tried gnome again recently. I just cannot with gnome. I think its so bizarre, honestly.
Misicks0349@reddit
From my experience its both disagreements with gnomes philosophy in terms of how they design their environment, and disagreements with how some of their team conduct themselves. TBH I think for both the hate gets out of hand even if I have disagreements with the gnome devs in both areas.
Yes, they're very opinionated and are quite intransigent; no, they didn't kick your door down and shoot your puppy in the name of the GNOME philosophy.
gatornatortater@reddit
It is just natural for people to rant online. In some ways I miss how that was accepted and not a concern in the 90's. Op would probably be a happier person if he had written this earlier and forced the conversation instead of just accepting it for as long as he did.
There is a reason that the OG's like Linus typically had/have a rudely direct and impolite way to communicate online. It worked, and it worked by quickly getting all the issues out on the table.
And yes, I am being subjective because I am of the same generation.
chic_luke@reddit
GNOME just works. And, as a low vision user (rare illness), it works well, too.
lonelyroom-eklaghor@reddit
Honestly, this time, GNOME has done quite a lot. It has made its OS much easier for a lot of people.
nevadita@reddit
I feel like Fireborn’s post shouldn’t be taken as a rant, even if it actually is, but as a guide or laundry list of things to fix, it was an amazing insight into the pitfalls a blind person has with Linux, im curious now of hearing from Fireborn how Windows and MacOS would compare in that front
fireborn1472@reddit
Better. Not perfect, but flaws are predictable. Windows has multiple screen reader options and vibrant addon communities. If an app isn’t accessible, there is likely an addon or script to make it so.
sparky8251@reddit
I kinda hope the audio stack issue he ranted on is solved as everyone moves to native pipwire audio, so we no longer have to worry about 10 different interoperating stacks built in a rickety tower... itd also make working on accessibility much easier, even if it meant leaving alsa in place under pipewire.
itzVictoria_@reddit
shill redhat elsewhere, gtfo
Puuurpleee@reddit
Oh look, it’s the idiot the post complains about!
itzVictoria_@reddit
oh look, its the sheep lead by massive corporations
Puuurpleee@reddit
Umm no, I just think it’s silly to hate on red hat so much. God forbid someone likes fedora.
Pedka2@reddit
what's wrong with redhat?
itzVictoria_@reddit
the microsoft of the linux world, killed centos, shoved down wayland down everyones throats, kill it with fire i say
Pedka2@reddit
what youre saying doesnt sound good, but also doesnt sound like microsoft
gmes78@reddit
Grow up.
weird_offspring@reddit
FLOSS: we are winning!
ilikenwf@reddit
If they care so much why did they take the worst aspects of Windows 8 and OSX ui's and kludge them together?
IverCoder@reddit (OP)
If you're such an expert in UX design, go make your own thing. You don't get a say on what GNOME (or KDE, or any other FOSS project) does. You are just a leech freeloading on FOSS projects for free.
ilikenwf@reddit
I'm not a frontend designer but I contribute actual code to plenty of projects. Speak for yourself.
pfp-disciple@reddit
I'm honestly surprised that, among all the novelty or merely re-themed distros, there's not one (that I know of) that's an attempt at being "accessible first". If there is, then I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned in the several discussions I've seen on the subject.
I really wish that I had spare time (sadly, I'm already not getting enough sleep) to try to organize and put together something, even as a starting point or proving ground. Maybe start with something very stable like Debian.
altermeetax@reddit
There's no need to have accessibility distros, accessibility should be built into the major distros.
KnowZeroX@reddit
There is nothing wrong with having disability targeted distros. Accessibility is not binary and even if accessibility is built in, there would be cases that fall through the cracks.
Not to mention sometimes choices have to be made, do you make something better for 99% of users or for 1% of users. You always have to make compromises when developing UI. Kind of like when companies make a single UI that works on both Mobile and Desktop, but end up with a compromised UI for both.
The point of linux is precisely that it can be customized for people's needs. Of course major distros should take into consideration accessibility, but that doesn't mean there is no need to have accessibility distros that can custom tailor experiences for those who need it.
SeriousPlankton2000@reddit
An accessibility distribution is good. If the development done for that swaps over to common distributions and the special distribution stops being needed it's even better.
KnowZeroX@reddit
I wouldn't be surprised if much of the stuff is sent upstream. Even the person who did the articles about how bad accessibility was mentioned MATE being best for accessibility, which coincides with some of the accessibility distros.
Fit_Smoke8080@reddit
That's a gargantum task, i.e. you'll have to ditch theming support (or severely limit it) at compile time level for most toolkits cause it's very hard to make sure any colorscheme has enough contrast for visually impaired users. Also invest lots of time ironing out TTS, which has improved but UI toolkits need work to integrate it.
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
No. Seems like you would actually want to embrace theming so as to ensure that its flexible enough to different kinds of color vision problems as well as low vision users which have different needs.
Fit_Smoke8080@reddit
I had a broader definition of theming in mind, like the one you can achieve with GTK3.
pfp-disciple@reddit
Yes, it should be. But it's apparently not done very well. Briefly reading the article, and another referenced in the article, it looks like the later versions of majoy distros have pretty significant issues
altermeetax@reddit
Then these issues should be fixed.
deviled-tux@reddit
Accessibility is a specialty skill. To build accesible software you need to be keenly aware of what the experience for your targets users will be.
Also accessibility needs to be supported basically at every level from the kernel down to each individual application.
Just to give a dumb example: low contrast text on a dark background can be an a11y issue (visually impaired people may not read it easily) or certain color schemes could be a11y unfriendly for people with specific colour blindness.
hence just repackaging software wouldn’t be enough to achieve this
SeriousPlankton2000@reddit
Yesterday or so we drove behind a painter's car. We agreed that white text on a yellow car is bad advertising.
Other issues may be setting a text color that happens to work well on a default background but breaks on different themes. Or dark modes where everything also need s to be gray on gray separated by gray. Dark mode shouldn't be like "I see a red door and I want it painted black" but there isn't a colorful-but-dark mode by default. Third party themes suffer from "let's break everything that we didn't make ourselves and blame the developer - and by the way we don't need to make what's also available as third-party stuff … why do users refuse to update?"
pfp-disciple@reddit
I get that part. But the few times I've read on the subject, I come across statements that things aren't enabled or properly configured. I was thinking that a group could go through the effort of taking a distro and enabling what needs enabled, configuring what needs configured, etc.
I'm guessing that's what the handful of "accessible distros" do.
QuackSomeEmma@reddit
Accessibility can never be "solved" by a solution that fit all users. I can see distros made for particular use cases. But there's still so much work left everywhere, that is not realistically solvable on the distribution side of things.
KnowZeroX@reddit
There are distros that are accessibility first.
Distros like Accessible-Coconut, Vojtux, Slint and probably many more
pfp-disciple@reddit
Yeah, I found a few articles referencing those. That's what motivated my edit. thanks for the assist, though!
Sirusho_Yunyan@reddit
Visually impaired user here (KDE Plasma) (Low vision). The reason why I use Linux is because (in my case) Plasma has the flexibility for me to choose how I work, depending on how my vision is on any given day. Low vision isn't a binary situation. Most types of blindness aren't. I can create my own theme, and adjust contrast, colour and brightness according to what works.
Gnome isn't inherently bad, but I didn't use it because it was locked down in such a way that I didn't have the freedom to adjust it to how I needed it to work. a11y is inherently selfish, it has to be, otherwise it doesn't work. I get that Gnome has a framework and design principles, and we're a very, very small minority of users. But I'm grateful for every volunteer, contributor and developer, who has taken the time to make something that helps build another stepping stone for me and others like me, to use.
chic_luke@reddit
I think what works for you depends on the type of eyesight impairment you have. To shout a voice from the other side, I am disabled with a heavy eyesight impairment from a rare illness. I use GNOME, and it is the Linux desktop environment that I by FAR found the best at coping with my visual impairment.
I don't think any choice is wrong. The great thing about the Linux desktop, for accessibility, is that you can get a degree of choice and flexibility in selecting the UI that has the best compromise for you that you can dream about on Windows or macOS. But I also think GNOME to be a top contender among these, and perfect for many low-vision scenarios.
A few reasons in random order:
An example about click targets:
These are the two default file managers, on default settings each.. Dolphin is not a clear winner in information density here (more side menu items, but less icons!), and it just seems to have smaller click targets that require more focus to hit with low vision, like the sidebar on the left. Trying side by side, I can operate Nautilus without much thought, but I immediately have to get closer to my computer and slow down my cursor to operate Dolphin. Unfortunately, the same feeling of constantly needing to get close and slow down plagues me whenever I am using anything but GNOME.
Responsivity when the window gets very small is also incredible on GNOME, and it is a tenet of accessibility. It would be more relevant in a screenshot where I am not using a huge monitor, but, just look at how GNOME apps behave when restrained to an incredibly small window - they dynamically change their button layout, compress sidebars into temporary side menus like on a smartphone app, and generally stay very usable even on small window sizes. This is relevant: when you are using a laptop with a high zoom level, the effective screen real estate you get is very low. You need apps that won't cut content off randomly, and you want apps that work well even if you want to do some multitasking side-by-side. On KDE, I did not find this, unfortunately, as most apps do not scale well, and some - like the Settings app - have a fairly demanding minimum window size.
This doesn't want to be a childish "DE A > DE B" comment that could be considered mature in middle school, but just a "tale from the other side of the coin": I have a heavy visual impairment, and if it weren't for GNOME, I would be using a Mac for sure.
SeriousPlankton2000@reddit
I, being an advanced user, get constantly annoyed by fields being hidden. "You want to print? Let me surprise you with random settings for scaling and duplex. You want to print specific pages? Let's hide that to make you do an extra click. Also here is a lot of empty room on the screen, great, isn't it?".
I think the UI should at least remember if the options are visible or hidden so both sides can have what they prefer.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
And another file manager you may want to try is MauiKit Index: https://mauikit.org/apps/index/ – that too is designed to adapt to small touch screens, so could be useful for your use case (with a large scaling factor).
chic_luke@reddit
Thanks! I've taken a look at the KDE Maui project. It looks really promising, it has the realistic chance to take the best parts from both worlds :)
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Not just "like on a smartphone app". GNOME apps at such window sizes are smartphone apps. Those are exactly the apps you would be using on Phosh or GNOME Shell Mobile. (Some of them also come in handy on my Plasma Mobile setup on my PinePhone, e.g., Geary.)
This is different from how KDE does things, where the Plasma Desktop applications are written in QtWidgets and do not adapt well to mobile environments. The KDE project is developing dedicated Plasma Mobile apps using QtQuick/QML and Kirigami. Some of those might be interesting for your use case.
As for Dolphin in particular, that has recently (as of KDE Gear 24.12) received some improvements to make it at least basically adaptive to mobile environments (and also some accessibility improvements), see: https://kde.org/announcements/gear/24.12.0/ – I do not see on your screenshot which version you are running, but if it is older than 24.12.0, you may want to try a more recent version. As the screenshot in the linked article shows (not sure whether you can see it properly), at least on a mobile device, Dolphin now retracts the sidebar just as Nautilus does. If you are already running Dolphin 24.12.0 or newer, you may have to set some environment variables (e.g., try
QT_QUICK_CONTROLS_MOBILE
) to force it to behave like on a phone.Sirusho_Yunyan@reddit
Really appreciate your taking the time to spell this out, and more power to you. I came close to getting a Mac, and I'm still leaning towards one for the way they handle some UI/UX elements.
The reason why i can use Plasma so well for me, is down to how it handles scaling, and being able to tweak elements of the UI to have colours and contrast that are functional for me, and I absolutely hear you about Plasma's click targets. If I wasn't using keyboard shortcuts for almost everything, I would be in a far more frustrated position. I hope you continue to find the tools that work for you!
tdammers@reddit
This isn't unique to accessibility issues. People love to conveniently forget that they are handed a very mature, top-class, industry-strength, multi-purpose OS entirely for free; the only caveat is that it's provided "as-is", so you don't get to complain, unless you pay for the privilege (i.e., you paid someone to do some work on it, and they did a lousy job - in which case you should be complaining to that person, not the other people who donated time, money and/or effort that you didn't pay or work for).
That doesn't mean you shouldn't raise accessibility issues you encounter - but there's a difference between "reporting" / "raising issues" and "complaining about" / "demanding". One is productive and helpful, the other is disruptive and needlessly abrasive.
mrlinkwii@reddit
the problem with this the likes of the EU are requiring the likes of accessibility (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32019L0882 ) and other stuff in operating systems within the EU if their being sold as part of laptop/pcs to end users , a few months back GNOME specifically had to implement things regarding power management
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues/3353
governments etc are forcing manufractures / develpers to fix the issue with
tdammers@reddit
But that's the key thing - "sold as part of laptops/PCs".
If you've bought a computer with an OS that doesn't adhere to the accessibility regulations, then you get to complain to / about whoever sold you that computer. And fixing the issue is primarily the problem of the person selling those computers, not of the people who wrote the software and released it under an open source license free of charge. The vendor can fix the software themselves (the license explicitly allows it), they can hire someone to do it for them, they can ask the original developers to do it (which will likely involve some kind of financial compensation), or they can find some other OS to sell with their computers.
Either way, open source developers are under no specific obligation here. It is not illegal to publish software for free that doesn't meet the regulations; they only apply when you start selling products.
SeriousPlankton2000@reddit
"I make this for free" shouldn't be a reason to intentionally subvert accessibility though. Just like security bugs, as a programmer one should have enough decency to not deliver a mess and expect the world to work around it. It's OK for a "here is my crufty code" public git repositories but not if you're trying to offer a service.
Everything that bugs a user may be worth while to consider: One minute wasted by each of one million users is one million minutes == about 8.6 years (20 business days/month, 8 h/day).
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
Here is an interesting question. How does that apply when they aren't directly selling software but as is sometimes the case with open source quasi selling it.
Soliciting donations including as part of installation or first run OR in the case of elementary OS asking the user to put in a price at time of download?
PotatoFuryR@reddit
I don't think that applies, as selling is transactional.
DuendeInexistente@reddit
Wasn't there drama/pointing and laughing a few months ago when some big corporation appeared in an open source issue tracker demanding huge code overhauls to be done asap because "We're a big company you should be glad we use your product" despite having never made any kind of donation to the project?
IverCoder@reddit (OP)
Was that Microsoft suddenly dropping by FFmpeg's issue tracker?
sylfy@reddit
Just wondering, who were the parties involved in this? You sound like you know more.
DuendeInexistente@reddit
I honestly can't remember the details, only that the company being all like "As you can see we have these many clients so you should give our issue priority"
mrlinkwii@reddit
the likes of GNOME is , many manufractures (lenovo etc) come pre-built with GNOME ( see the GNOME issue i linked )
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
It remains to be seen whether that can be enforced at all. Looking at some past examples: GDPR enforcement against websites being lackluster, local Austrian accessibility laws for physical stores and restaurants being largely ignored, etc., I am not holding my breath.
Another fear I have is that this is going to be used against small companies like the PINE64 EU Store while letting large retailers get away with everything.
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
It only effects gnome if Lenovo is willing to part with more money. You a seller of commercial items don't get extra priority by virtue of you needing it to make more money you get it by ponying up more money.
tdammers@reddit
"Complain about" includes "press legal charges".
My point is, it's the selling part that matters, not the making or distributing part.
Tai9ch@reddit
Yay, another government policy intended to help some people that will instead have the effect of causing immeasurable harm to everyone.
And I really mean immeasurable. Bans on products / services / transactions just make businesses quietly stop doing stuff. They don't file a report saying "I would have developed and released this product if it were legal, which would have had these benefits to these people", they just don't do it.
And so, for example, instead of getting consumer devices to developers who could develop accessibility features after release, nobody gets them.
(You can get an LLM to write the rest of this rant for you.)
xooken@reddit
youre misdirecting your frustration here: policies to help are great, but they need to provide easier pathways for compliance, ie subsidizing stairs into ramps or bathroom remodels etc
Tai9ch@reddit
No. Some of these policies do really themselves cause problems, and likely more problems than they solve.
Consider a policy that anyone serving food to the public must offer gluten free options. Existing large firms will immediately comply - they've got a budget for this exact sort of thing. McDonalds will proudly declare that McNuggets are gluten free, and will change their kitchen practices to make sure to avoid cross-contamination.
But come back in a decade and you'll notice that there are fewer pizza places and sandwich shops. Gluten free people didn't even go into Joe's Pizza, but the cost of worrying about kitchen contamination for a menu item that only ever got ordered twice was too much for a marginal business. Lots of places that served food but didn't need to will have quietly stopped. That'll include places like coffee shops, but also things like fundraiser dinners.
And if you weren't paying attention before, you might not even notice the change. Maybe people just prefer Dominoes Pizza to the stuff from the smaller shops. Maybe Chinese food just got more popular than Italian.
But the crushed dreams are still there. Joe would still prefer to be running that pizza shop, but it just doesn't make financial sense with the one extra regulation.
xooken@reddit
so then. why would my comment not cover a subsidy for small businesses that helps cover the cost of gluten-free options? how is that a counter example to what i said?
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
I'm not aware of any place that requires gluten free. What happened is that a very small minority of people are actually allergic to gluten. They need to eat gluten free. A lot of people either diagnosed themselves as gluten intolerant via doctor google and others decided that if something higher priced is listed as free then must be bad with no further logical thought. Gluten free stuff therefore became far more common and popular to the benefit of the small minority that actually needed it.
If your point is so well made perhaps you can come up with actual examples of actual situations?
Tai9ch@reddit
Are you going to ask me to give you examples of movies that weren't made because of overly long copyright terms next?
When people chose not to do things because they're banned, they just quietly don't do it. They don't go leaving around a ton of evidence.
I might be able to put in a heroic effort and find examples of municipal facilities that were discussed at town meetings and then cancelled due to ADA compliance costs, but you'd keep missing the point and nitpick my examples rather than accepting the basic economic fact that 99% of the harm is invisible.
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
So to be clear in the non-imaginary options so far in the thread we have
Municipal facilities should be able to be built without ramps because they will somehow be viable at 1% decrease in costs.
IBM a company worth a quarter of a trillion dollars might not be able to sell laptops with Linux in Europe if people living on less than 50k don't donate twice as much of their free time.
People can't make their own Harry Potter fanfic because of copyright....
Yes I see any way I shake the dice its all coming up your way. I admit defeat sir.
mrlinkwii@reddit
i mean its not , GNOME et el had 6 years to get their shit together ,
why blame the EU when the likes of GNOME knows its required , if they want manufractures to sell machines with linux by default
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
Gnome isn't implicitly making any money at all ergo no they actually don't need to work harder for free in order to enable other people to make money. The people who are actually earning money should present proposals that come with funding.
Tai9ch@reddit
Not every device can or should ship with software even as common and mature as Gnome.
Will the MNT Reform stay legal? The Liberux Nexx? Anything from Pine64? SBC desktop bundles?
Not every potential vendor has hundreds of employees to polish every last bit of their product, especially for initial releases.
I don't think most of the people supporting these policies are trying to exclude small market participants, but that's one of the primary effects. And, well, the purpose of a thing is what it does.
Tai9ch@reddit
Because there might be a good reason to ship a device with something much less mature than Gnome.
Is the MNT reform going to stay legal? The Liberux Nexx? Dev boards? Dev board desktop bundles?
Not every vendor has hundreds of employees
blackcain@reddit
Not just that but the various libraries that was created that can be used elsewhere. Libraries like libxml2 are used everywhere by businesses. They get to use it, maintenance free.
regeya@reddit
That's a lot of it; y'all, keep in mind we're interacting with people who might do this development as part of their job, but there's a good chance they're doing it because they want to. Sending demanding emails, and prefacing it with a list of disadvantages as if it proves you have a right to be demanding. I understand some of the frustrations, better than a random Reddit user might know from reading this comment, but I also know that alienating people isn't going to get the change you want and need.
Hopefully people who have concerns, combined with some development chops, can weigh in in the future.
ElvishJerricco@reddit
Before anyone just reads the title and decides to comment, the author cares very much about accessibility and is writing about how much outrage is received by those who actually do the work on accessibility improvements.
mywan@reddit
It's been quiet a few years since I voiced my discontent with Linux issues. It's just really difficult to get the point across without sounding too caustic to people that absolutely do not deserve it. Instead (with limited skills) wrote my own personal file protocol handler to replace the built in one. It was agnostic to whatever desktop (even worked in Windows) to address my main issues. And I still (never going to happen) dream of expanding that to a fully modular complete desktop environment, built specifically around a minimalist standalone file protocol handler.
I avoid interacting with developers because they simply do not deserve the kinds of feedback I would feel compelled to provide. They deserve nothing but praise (and some bills paid) for what they have created.
My issues don't specifically deal with standard disabilities. It's way down on the typical user spectrum spectrum. To be fair, Linux is FAR less antagonistic to software that tries to redefine certain UI functionality today than it was years ago. Most of my most serious complaints from years ago isn't even particularly relevant today. Even if defaults remain obtuse. And becoming more so in some ways. Mostly because decisions are made by programmers who interact with the machine as a programmer rather than as users. I often also recognize the same tendencies to think as a programmer, rather than a user, in game mechanics.
Maybe a skilled someone will come along one day that fully understands the disconnect between users and programmers and fully revolutionize Linux as a Desktop environment. It's there for the doing.
So for any demotivating interactions I engaged in many years ago I sincerely apologize. I want you to understand my intent was not to demotivate anyone. And I suspect many bad interactions with users are similarly well intentioned. So thank you, very much.
SeriousPlankton2000@reddit
Sometimes "that part of the UI sucks Jupiter through a straw" is not too harsh ;-) but usually one should neutrally describe what one does with a program, what one expects and what happens instead.
ElvishJerricco@reddit
In my experience both as a maintainer of some things and someone who interacts with maintainers a lot, I think we're all genuinely appreciative when people voice the issues they've had to us, as long as it's constructive. There's a big difference between "this really needs to be better, here's what you should do" vs "here's an issue I had, let's talk about it". The former is a demand and the latter is a collaboration. I genuinely enjoy working with people reporting issues when they're constructive and collaborative.
mywan@reddit
The problem (for me) is that trying to explain the subtleties in the disconnect between programmers and users gets frustrating, because it's extremely hard to do eloquently., or in a manner that even makes sense from a programmers perspective. And that frustration tends to turn to frustration for both sides. Making the attempt seem more toxic than informative.
I've done enough programming to grasp the basics of a programmers perspective. Enough to see it in the design choices of all kinds of software. It's completely upside down and backwards from the way I approach writing software. Because I start at the user level and work backwards into the software. It can take me months of experimenting just to begin writing the actual software to get the desired results that I have a clear picture of from day one. And many more hours manually trying to break it in ways it shouldn't break. Even when programming I use the mouse more than the keyboard. I'm not a programmer, and I couldn't operate under the demands and constraints of a development team, or environment.
I'm just a reasonably skilled user that would rather spend weeks to figure out how to avoid the process flow that is second nature to an actual programmer. I NEED a process flow that makes more sense to a user than a programmer. And I am at a loss to communicate the disconnect between them, or just how extremely important that perspective shift is. I would argue that if that connection is ever made the Linux desktop will see an undreamt of user base growth. Especially since ever generation of Windows gets worse from a user perspective.
UnfetteredThoughts@reddit
Could you give some good examples where something is made with a programmer's mindset vs a user's? What does that disconnect actually look like? What's something that works one way and how would you rather it work?
mywan@reddit
X4: Foundations would be a good example in games. It's often not so much how any individual design choice is made, but how those design choices shift from programmatic context. In X4 look how basic persistent interactions are distributed such that you have to dig through multiple places to maintain the same handful of controls. For a hyper specific example in X4 try to assign a captain to a ship. That alone is the end of the road for a minority of players. Some people (me), even after figuring it out, will forget and get stuck later when they are trying to do the same thing again. Usually it's more about the distribution of controls.
Often you can see it in the distribution of game achievements achieved by users. More obtuse approaches will have a higher early dropout rate. But the people that get through it will get a higher relative rate of late game achievements. Resulting in an achievement rate that is lower but flatter in the percentages of people that achieve it.
In past years there was this inclination to try to simplify the UI to avoid confusing a hypothetical Grandma. This was generally disastrous. It took away front facing options that frustrated regular users, and was completely irrelevant to someone like my mother who continually got lost on how to find the internet on the big blue button on the taskbar. Yet understood single/double-entry spreadsheet entries perfectly, faster than me.
Context is too varied for hyper specific examples of what you understandably asked for to be meaningful. Because consistency across context is king, extensibility is queen, and consistency is the child. Which makes hyper specific examples sound like I'm being obtuse with my expectations. So I think the best way for me to go about this is to describe my file protocol handler and what kind of tradeoffs I made for programmatic expediency.
I initially called this program Drawers (later just Q). With user defined command line switches, it essentially allowed me to turn every taskbar shortcut into its own private user defined start menu. It displayed more like a fancy context menu, and exited immediately after use. And because each file type had its own editable default drawer, and every 'file' opened with this app, I could get the same options available from double clicking any file anywhere that was available from the taskbar, or anywhere else. Every app on the computer, or any command line string+switches, could be included in the default choices available in any given Drawer. These Drawers also included Run/Compile for various programming languages. So those old programmers text editors with limited run options merely needed to be pointed at Q to get a complete range of standardized options. It even properly redirected stderr/stdout etc. There were special characters in the config that would force stdout et al somewhere else if defaults weren't sufficient. I even wrote a pure shell script version that ran entirely in a terminal as practice for getting the Linux specific features figured out.
I was initially happy with manually editing an inifile structured config file. But when I decided to extend this and add this functionality to the UI is when I started making choices for programmatic expediency. I added the ability to configure Q by sorting Windows shortcuts, and/or Linux desktop files, in subfolders of Q. It worked seamlessly with the inifile. It was overkill, but I was experimenting with options. The issue was that implementing drag and drop went over my head in the programming language I was using. Initially AutoIt, later Python /w Tkinter. So I implemented a cut/copy/paste scheme. There was also a right click and edit specific key/value pairs UI. It required the same understanding of options as manually editing the config file. But shortcut Drawers had a default option to add its command to a specific Drawer. To open a Drawer(s) in edit mode required the Ctrl key, so you could copy/paste between Drawers. Since the UI only updated with a restart, an edit mode command line switch was added. So it restarted with every change made.
It was functional, and in some way elegant, even if a lot of the overkill could be removed. And it made my dumpster diver built computer with Linux far more responsive. But for a mass audience those configuration options would have been a complete mess. Even for me, with intimate knowledge of its internals, choosing how to go about making a configuration change was obtuse. It was easier just to open the config file directly, or the file manager if I wanted to reorganize a large number of Drawers. Fundamentally unfit for a mass audience. It would produce an endless torrent of obtuse questions from users on various forums. Or just getting deleted and forgotten if the defaults weren't compelling enough. It was, however, on par with a lot of choices programmers make. For essentially the same reason programmers make those choices, for expediency.
But for my own limitations it didn't have to be this way. I can define the drag/drop functionality required to overcome these user issues. But working backwards from the UI functionality to the programming choices required to achieve it isn't easy, even with better skills than I possess. And specific choices are going to have tradeoffs that I can't predict beforehand. Just because it seems perfectly reasonable and elegant to me means nothing to a mass audience. An audience that isn't (generally) going to take kindly to being required to solve a de minimis puzzle. An audience that typically gets confused about the distinction between a server and a client. Just because someone can understand doesn't mean they should be required to repeatedly willy-nilly. I do not like being required to unnecessarily revisit even minor puzzles, or even to be forced to fetch a keyboard unnecessarily. Why would I expect users to be any different?
The child, consistency across context, is the key to achieving that. Not by removing options. Or hiding it like some obscure condition hidden on page 63 of the ToS.
ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit
In all honesty, I kind of came into reading the post with an idea to disagree with it but this is actually an abnormally well reasoned and nuanced take. I wasn't really expecting this.
esmifra@reddit
That's because the post title is written in a way to cause a reaction. Which is terrible.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Well reason and nuanced???
I found it to be one of the most poorly written rants in ages. I tend to agree with him in general, but ended up absolutely disliking the way he framed everything. It was truly awful writing IMO.
SEI_JAKU@reddit
You're the exact kind of person the article talks about.
Misicks0349@reddit
I mean thats kind of the point in a way, they're fed up and annoyed, so of course they're going to rant.
mrtruthiness@reddit
If I wanted to read a rant that expressed: "anger" and "misunderstood" and "people are picking on my project" ... I would go back in time and have another conversation with my teenage boys (they're grown now). The difference is that my boys would have been more eloquent and clear.
Misicks0349@reddit
Right.
This is someones own personal blog, I'd understand this critique if it was a more formal setting.... but it isn't. To me this is more akin to your own personal diary or writing to a family member you has been particularly cruel to you for some reason or another.
mrtruthiness@reddit
No. Those are examples of personal non-public writing. A blog is explicitly not that. It's public and is meant to communicate.
Misicks0349@reddit
I mean I don't think its completely analogous to either of those either, but thats how I treat them.
To me they are not out there to communicate something in the same way a sermon or a lecture might, but rather put out to the public as an act of good faith, i.e. a private personal writing made public. Some people write their blog posts more as a personal exercise to themselves rather then to tell "the reader" about something.
mrtruthiness@reddit
I have a diary. It's encrypted. My wife can't read it.
I was a college professor. You only have a limited time. A lecture is carefully crafted to communicate. There's nothing personal about a lecture.
Disagree. It's intended for external consumption. It's not a novel or a short story, but it should be clear and concise and can use pictures/drawing/graphs. In my mind a blog is a lecture with a wider audience.
Misicks0349@reddit
Welp agree to disagree ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, I don't think I've ever though of blogs as being more like lectures then a kind of public diary, but more power to you.
SanityInAnarchy@reddit
I think it's got a good point that it does a pretty bad job of communicating. When it says something like this:
I would expect this to be in opposition to fireborn's series, yet it links to it favorably. What's going on?
What it seems to be trying to say is: This stuff is hard, and that describing the problems with Linux accessibility as "no one cares" is going to be pretty demoralizing to the people who are trying very hard to make it better. Because two things can be true at once: Accessibility can be in a very poor state, and people can be putting in an incredible amount of effort to try to fix that. Those can both be true, because it is a hard problem.
But I just don't think the article makes that point very well -- the overall tone comes off as "Please stop complaining about Linux accessibility." I understand that's not what the author intended, but it's very easy to come away with that impression.
Also: This was a reminder to go read the latest updates from fireborn.
Immediate_Song4279@reddit
It was a risky tactic, but I think they delivered on the premise at the end.
Capable-Silver-7436@reddit
Fek forbid people not just do endless free work and have a life. Gotta make the computer go burr more
tonymurray@reddit
Honestly, this is one of the worst parts of open source. Donate a little time and people expect more, the worst ones demand it.
I'm guilty of it myself on occasion, but I try not to.
TCB13sQuotes@reddit
I believe "we" care too much. GNOME and KDE spend way too much money / time on accessibility. The last large 1M€ public investment into GNOME was almost entirely spent on accessibility.
braaaaaaainworms@reddit
What makes you think you will not be disabled in future? Accidents happen, illnesses happen and given enough time either one will happen
TCB13sQuotes@reddit
Nothing, that’s not the problem. The problem is that when it comes to desktop Linux is way behind other systems, let’s first get a useful thing and then we can worry about accessibility.
gatornatortater@reddit
None of that is different from any other modern OS. You got all kinds of ways to install programs on windows and OSX, ranging from a comfy "store" to manually copying files or building from source.
It has always been like that, and will always be.
TCB13sQuotes@reddit
Oh but it is. Because under Windows and macOS there are two things, first you can download binaries from everywhere that can be installed without a mess of broken dependencies (because static stuff) and second the store is right there working by default and developers can actually push software updates at any time and are not tied to OS releases like in Linux.
Flatpak solved the software update problem, however it required 3 console commands and a reboot - that's not accessible for regular users. Also it requires you to know that it exists and extra effort to make it happen. Besides, as I said before, flatpak is all nice and good until you find out that that even getting a password manager to work with a browser is a challenge that requires you to go through multiple hoops.
This is NOT usability at all.
gatornatortater@reddit
"regular people" are not using any of those dependency problem packages on any of the OS's either. Regular people are not hunting down the correct version off ffmpeg in order to get some mkv processing program to work.
I do not believe you are comparing apples to apples.
JohnJamesGutib@reddit
bruh this some real "if i had my way them 'visually impaired' people would pay us for all the hassle we go through dealing with their blind asses" type shit, i respect the brazen assholery lol
gatornatortater@reddit
Not sure I get the point. What would be wrong with people occasionally sending money to the developers doing things they want to support?
Jegahan@reddit
You sound like a lovely person.
Again someone who don't read the article before posting. It literally say that about 1/4 of the sovereign tech fund was used for accessibility, so not "almost entirely" by any means.
JuJunker52@reddit
What is the purpose of this article?
The people who do what he's complaining about have severe personality disorders and aren't likely going to change their behavior if if they did read it.
I understand the need to vent one's frustrations, but the length of this makes me read it like some ego-driven manifesto.
gatornatortater@reddit
Its educational for those of us on the sidelines who until now were only hearing one side of the discussion.
It is an ego-driven manifesto. I don't see anything wrong with that. The guy is doing the work he does for personal and human reasons. He should communicate in a human way. Not in a dry boring corporate engineer kind of way.
JuJunker52@reddit
Most people at a bar have nothing worthwhile to say, and neither does the OP.
smackjack@reddit
I stopped reading after he wrote the word privileged for the 50th time.
Salty-Judge272@reddit
The article does the exact thing it's criticizing others for...
It's "I'm right you're wrong" posts like these that put people off.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
It also to me feels like the author has a victim complex about people who trash talk GNOME (along with quite a few other GNOME contributors). Like, GNOME is the most popular desktop environment, no shit people will complain about it.
Maybe I am just not following community too closely, but it doesn't feel like KDE devs complain nearly as much about that even though a lot of people love complaining about KDE software as well.
My-Prostate-Is-Okay@reddit
Good old arm chair psychology from a reddit post.
Stay classy.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
Have you ever heard of colloquialisms?
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
You're the problem
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
Very civil, much wow.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
Seek humility
Salty-Judge272@reddit
Someone criticised Fedora for shipping with a broken screen reader for 8 years and got told they were exhibiting white privilege, despite not being white.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
Holy crap, I hadn't heard of this. Wtaf
IverCoder@reddit (OP)
It doesn't do anything it speaks about against, it just points out the cold hard truth about how a11y gets handled these days and how people like to discredit them.
RynnZ@reddit
What is the purpose of your post?
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
What is the post of your purpose
Keely369@reddit
You did that on porpoise.
MatchingTurret@reddit
It all boils down to "Someone has to do do the work". Linux desktop development is largely a volunteer project, so someone has to volunteer or offer funding to pay someone.
Criticizing volunteers for not doing enough is the best way to discourage them and slow progress even more.
grady_vuckovic@reddit
The thing is, it's not a matter of just "anyone", or just one specific person, doing the work.
You and I can't do it if we write code contributions that are rejected by upstream projects.
You and I can't do it if we create a system that improves accessibility and no one uses it.
You and I can't do it because there's literally too much work for any one person to do, so we'd need to convince others to help us.
You and I can't do it because we probably don't possess all of the required skills and knowledge to implement it, and likely no one individual person does, because it would require a broad range of knowledge and skills, too broad for any one specific person to have.
These kinds of changes require a movement of people, not just individuals, so 'we' literally 'as a community' do need to act on this collectively, because it's bigger than any one person.
If you disagree, you're welcome to go fix accessibility on Linux all by yourself if you believe that's something you can do without anyone's help.
tuna_74@reddit
Everybody agrees that we should improve accessibility on our (!) Free SW stack. If you want to help out you can do that in almost any capacity. You can even just do manual regression testing and report back.
gatornatortater@reddit
Amen brother. We're a community of individuals.
daniel-sousa-me@reddit
They are not doing enough and everyone else is doing even less (me included)
grady_vuckovic@reddit
Just a side note, skeleton. Your website has no dark/light mode theme choices, which normally wouldn't bother me because I use the "Dark Reader" extension to adjust the contrast and colours of website CSS automatically for me, but due to the way your website's CSS is coded, the Dark Reader extension can't change any colours in your CSS.
TheEvilSkely@reddit
I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done on my end.
My website uses relative colors to appropriately set the lightness of colors and maintain contrast, which allows me to easily make dark and high contrast styles and adapt to the system's accent color. As in, if the user sets the desktop's accent color to yellow, the website will use yellow everywhere; if it's purple, then the website will use purple, etc. If you want dark style and/or high contrast, your browser needs to be set in dark style and/or high contrast, respectively (either manually or by the system).
Perhaps you could file an issue or create a new discussion on the Dark Reader repository?
somethingrelevant@reddit
I mean the guy he's yelling at is kind of right though? In that git issue he links they're saying right there they're encouraging downstream to stop shipping the xorg sessions, and then half a year later they acknowledge accessibility is still shit on wayland, but then just this month disabled the xorg sessions anyway. They're talking about removing it completely in the next release! So what are people supposed to think? What are people supposed to deduce from "Gnome knows accessibility sucks on wayland but is still removing xorg anyway"?
You can say the developers of wayland actually do really care about accessibility, and you know what I even believe you, but this is the behaviour of people who really don't
OneQuarterLife@reddit
These are the actions of developers that are done maintaining legacy code for something that should have died 20 years ago. Switching to Wayland forces the issue and now Wayland accessibility will have to be addressed.
gatornatortater@reddit
I think that is a proprietary mindset to think that there should only be wayland or xorg. Even the kernel has other options if you think of BSD as an equivalent. Its not like you could still call it "linux" if you're not using the linux kernel.
OneQuarterLife@reddit
X11 will exist for a long, long time. It will also be abandoned by most projects of any value. KDE and GNOME are already doing it, XFCE and Budgie are next, and Cosmic is Wayland from the start.
OofyDoofy1919@reddit
XFCE supports bsd so it will continue supporting x11.
OneQuarterLife@reddit
All three desktop BSD users appreciate it
somethingrelevant@reddit
I replied to this earlier but it still hasn't actually shown up, so I'm going to try again:
xorg is still around 20 years later because wayland doesn't actually replace it yet, and
okay, so there's going to be a period of months to years where accessibility is just intentionally bad on gnome then? that's exactly what I was talking about!
gatornatortater@reddit
Not to defend it... but that may just be the mindset for Gnome. How long did it take Gnome 3 to settle down at the beginning? At least a few months from what I remember. Mate's popularity wasn't just about people being use to Gnome 2 and not wanting to change. At first it was because Gnome 3 was still pretty wonky.
somethingrelevant@reddit
but they can just address it? if accessibility is a priority why does focusing on it need to be forced? and why is the method something that means accessibility just has to eat shit for a while?
like if I were a gnome user and I found out they were dunking my ability to use gnome for months to years I would simply stop being a gnome user and switch to something I could actually use, that's not really a win for anyone
wszrqaxios@reddit
There, I fixed it for you.
somethingrelevant@reddit
okay so I got one reply saying "they're doing this to force fixes" and another reply saying "they actually already fixed this", that's interesting. But if you look at that blog post the biggest win it mentions is:
So there are still accessibility gaps, just not this one any more.
I'm not contesting that gnome devs are working on accessibility, I'm contesting that shutting down xorg support is a pretty clear sign it's not a priority
wszrqaxios@reddit
So,
Do you see any inconsistency in this? How come "it's not a priority" when it was literally singled as a blocker?
You just singled out keyboard shortcuts in Orca, so yes, there are more gaps talked about in the rest of the article. What's wrong with that?
somethingrelevant@reddit
lol the conclusion of the article is "Accessibility in GNOME is continuously improving, thanks to the contributions of many people." so I really don't know how you interpret that as "accessibility is now a solved problem". it's clear they're working on it, and also clear they're not finished. I feel like you maybe didn't properly read what you posted
wszrqaxios@reddit
What do you expect to read instead? "We're done with accessibility and there's nothing else to add"? Do these words even exist in software engineering?
You're missing that the goal is to reach parity with Xorg before removing it by improving accessibility backends in Wayland. Application support (like the work done by TESK in OP) is a different beast and requires continuous work. Calendar which didn't have good keyboard navigation wasn't automagically more accessible under Xorg, so that's not a reason to keep it around..
somethingrelevant@reddit
neat, the goalposts have moved from "actually it's fixed already" to "actually it's impossible to ever truly fix", cool
a thing they apparently haven't done yet?
wszrqaxios@reddit
No goalposts were changed, you're just purposefully missing the point. Work in backends was done (GTK, Webkit..). work in apps is still ongoing. I don't know how to rewords this in any simpler terms.
somethingrelevant@reddit
you literally said with your own words that they fixed it! you posted an annoying comment about it in reply to my post! look, here it is:
You said this! Nobody made you say this! If you've now realised your actual position is "well they didn't fix it because that's not possible but they made enough progress that I consider it good enough", sure, fine, but at least admit you're changing your position instead of pretending I'm trolling for responding to the literal words you said to me on reddit
wszrqaxios@reddit
Why can't you understand that accessibility requires both app support and backend support to work at all? When people refer to accessibility being a mess in Wayland, it's because until not long ago, the backends had no access to apps under Wayland, and so did not work at all! That has been FIXED by introducing changes to toolkits (GTK), screen readers (Orca), global shortcuts (mutter), and the accessibility daemon (at-spi). And I quote myself:
But if apps don't support accessibility at all, can't talk to backends or support kb navigation, then it doesn't fuckin matter if they were run under xorg or wayland. So the situation with Wayland accessibility was fixed but app support is a continuous work (such as the work reported in OP).
I'm not changing my position, this is the 3rd time I'm repeating this point with different wording in this thread! Pick whichever you like. Alright maybe you were not trolling, just slow to catch what I said.
somethingrelevant@reddit
Look man I really don't know what to say except that I simply don't believe you. I think you came in with a post you thought was a dunk and had to rapidly retreat to a more nuanced position once you realised it wasn't the dunk you were hoping for.
And like, It's fine that your actual opinion is more complex, but you have to understand I cannot read your mind and just know that and you cannot then call me trolling or stupid for not figuring it out for you
wszrqaxios@reddit
If my intention was to dunk for internet brownie points all along, I wouldn't have bothered including links, writing bullet points, mentioning examples, reiterating in multiple replies, or kept coming back to this 4 hours later..
I only bothered cause your first post seemed reasonable for someone lacking context. I tried to provide that context but the discussion derailed to misquoting, accusations of retreating and moving goalposts.. instead of, you know, actually explaining why you think accessibility won't be ready by GNOME 49 later this year, with actual bug reports or examples or something of substance. You can't blame me for suspecting trolling in this case.
In any case, this has gone longer than I was willing to, and I'd wager you don't even use GNOME or accessibility tools so what was even the point of any of this. Have a nice day/night.
OofyDoofy1919@reddit
Both things can be true at once: accessibility is bad and accessibility is being worked on... not to take away from the devs' work but they need to show results. Its also true that the forcing of wayland has made things worse... like there are still protocols for essential stuff not pushed to the base wayland protocol (individual compositors don't count). Also accessibility is jot only about screenreaders and all... basic stuff like desktop icons and tray icons are also accessibility features but GNOME devs say you don't need them...
PotatoFuryR@reddit
That was a nice post
Maerskian@reddit
Adding up to this, it's worth pointing out this previous thread regarding this matter, also this blog post from another linux user that went as far as finding one crucial use case for Bedrock Linux (worth reading through it).
Full disclaimer: Personally i don't have any need for these features, nobody within my circles neither... although i do help people transition to linux (at absolute zero charge, won't take any kind of compesation) which makes me look at the whole ecosystem with the needs of "people" as a whole... and quite honestly... this kind of things get on my nerves, not to mention the hypocrisy levels required but the kind of organizations that one day bombard you non-stop with their support for "minorities" (whatever it means for 'em, seems to be a variable) while at the same time they are way too happy to pokerface abandon "minorities".
QuackdocTech@reddit
Yea so much this. This below is Wayland in a nutshell.
Devs love to harp on and on about how they are pushing a11y. But the second it touches something security related, something that probably doesn't matter to 99% of users. Its not even worth considering.
The ability to ask a user for permissions is something computers have had for decades. But with the Wayland/portals ecosystem nope.
If "can I has this feature for accessibility" is met with "we don't want to ask the user permission" and "we don't want this info into leak into sandboxes"
Some thing is critically wrong.
Misicks0349@reddit
I'm not sure where this has... happened? Wayland doesn't allow clients to arbitrarily access other surfaces content, but thats not a blocker to accessibly design, nor do you need to remove that restriction in order for screen readers to work. e.g. Newton
QuackdocTech@reddit
There is no one single issue, but one of the one going ones is this one. https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/issues/304
Its possible that newton could take its place? But you would need all the major implementors to work with this. And there are so many more features that can be needed.
Dealing with people who just dismiss issues like this is draining to say the least, and it feels like every single feature people wind up asking for gets this treatment of the actual premise of the feature being rejected when its such a critical a11y feature.
Misicks0349@reddit
That.... issue has nothing to do with accessibility? Don't get me wrong its a nice to have but the person who requested it is working on a time tracking tool. Accessibility wasn't even mentioned once in that issue, nor do screen readers require that kind of functionality as far as I'm aware.
QuackdocTech@reddit
accessibility uses were mentioned multiple times, ssokolo specifically mentioned he needs it to help with his ADHD.
A11y isn't just about physical impairments
Misicks0349@reddit
nvm github just hid the majority of the damn comments from me under a "Show 80+ Comments" button.... thanks github.
Anyways, reading through the hidden comments they provide I still dont see the kind of denial you speak of, some do it of course, but there are are plenty (even from GNOME and other compositors) who want this feature implemented. The problem here is that the xdg-portal people are quite slow at adding new portals, not that there has been some massive rebuke because of security concerns.
they also link to a wayland protocol that already has this feature: ext-foreign-toplevel-list, so whilst its not supported in all compositors yet, the feature you're asking for already exists.
gmes78@reddit
Nope. It's met with "let's find a proper solution".
X_m7@reddit
Nope, that may come later (in this case like 3 years!) but certainly not initially: "This is not the kind of information we would normally want to leak into sandboxes, I think." "I'm still of the opinion that we don't want sandboxed apps to get into managing foreign toplevels. That is fundamentally a privileged operation" "Honestly I think I convinced myself to be against it. Window titles are sensitive and there simply isn't a way to let a user interject themselves in that process." - on the subject of checking open windows
gmes78@reddit
That's not a thread about accessibility.
Accessibility tools would be privileged applications, just like input methods are, so it would be a lot different. And accessibility tools would use dedicated Wayland protocols (like input methods do), not x-d-p interfaces.
QuackdocTech@reddit
I wish it was
grady_vuckovic@reddit
Regular users don't function like developers.
And as a developer myself, I have enormous sympathy for developers dealing with them.
If a regular user approaches a construction site, and they see a construction worker standing there, drinking a coffee, smoking a cig, doing nothing, while a brick wall is half constructed next to him, it looks like, to that regular user, the construction worker is doing nothing, while there is work to be done.
Developers though, involved in the project, know that the guy is on a break after clocking out of a 10 hour shift, and just finished building 6 other brick walls solo, and there's and there's no more bricks left on site, someone is going to a supplier to order some more and getting them delivered early tomorrow morning.
The difference between the regular user and the developer is - communication.
I see what developers in the Linux community do, I see them fixing bugs, improving accessibility, individuals volunteering to do translation work, etc.
Enormous amounts of thankless work are being done daily by thousands of people. As someone who also does software development work for a living, I understand what it's like and how difficult it is, and appreciate that most of these people are not only doing this work - but doing it for free. Saints. Saints all of them!
But I've also spent years developing systems for regular users and corporate customers/managers who want everything 'now' and have the long term vision and memory of a gold fish, and understand software development as much as I understand brain surgery... I can tell you from experience... simply "doing the work" is not enough for those people. A simple "steady stream of things getting done and improved" is not good enough for those people.
It should be. In a magical wonderful world, you should be able to just wake up, do some work to improve something and make the world a better place, send it off, and then go back to doing your daily life stuff, and people should just appreciate what you did, and trust that you have a plan to deal with whatever isn't done and will need to be done in the future. Also there should be universal basic income, equality for all, no wars, and a rainbow, and then a unicorn appears!
But in the cold awful reality we live in, people expect update reports, they expect roadmaps, they want deadlines, they want %-complete, they want KPIs, etc...
I think the corporate world goes overboard on communication, to the point that it slows down developers. But I think sometimes in the Linux world, the problems like what Skeleton is outlining, are caused by not having enough communication.
I get that there's lots of work being done on the state of accessibility in Linux - but I can't say I see most of it unless I'm following lots of individual developers and keeping a mental track record of everything that's happening. I can do that, but what are normal users expected to do?
I offer this as a suggestion, not an attack - I think it would be of huge benefit for organisations like GNOME and their public perception, to put additional effort into communicating goals, identified issues and roadmaps.
We don't need deadlines or release dates or nonsense like that, but even just a quarterly update on the state of each major area of focus in the organisation for matters like UX or Accessibility, prepared by a spokesperson, which outlines what the short, medium and long term goals are, what problems are trying to be fixed, and the roadmap to get there, would help.
Now, as I type this, I know full well, someone somewhere is already typing a response saying "They already do that! it's right here!". Probably. Because I give GNOME enough credit to say I'm sure they're already making some kind of efforts along these lines.
All I can say is - I googled "GNOME Roadmap" and aside from a shutdown discontinued wiki, I couldn't find anything current or recent, and I can't recall seeing those kinds of communications from GNOME. So if they are out there, then maybe all that's needed is a bigger effort on promoting them, or making them more discoverable, or easier to digest.
I just think if more people were aware of the scale of the task being done, and the big picture that the developers are looking at, they'd be more appreciative of the work being done.
100GHz@reddit
From a casual observer standpoint:
1.Gnome owns the gnome ecosystem
Gnome spends vast efforts pushing in the direction it wants, historically ignoring the userbase. This is mainly in direction of removing features, and not adding them.
Accessibility, while a hard subject is not near other ecosystem levels.
The only natural conclusion here is that gnome doesn't push in that direction as hard.
This is my perception about the overarching theme where the market/ecosystem is.
Now I will reread the full thing besides the paragraph that you pointed out, to either revise my conclusions from above, or cement them further.
Muximori@reddit
You immediately engaged in the behavior he criticized.
gatornatortater@reddit
I for one am grateful for this heartfelt post.
Not being disabled I really didn't know what other posts on the topic in the last couple months were talking about. It appeared it was about the clearly labeled applications that most distros include that say they are for the purpose of acceessibility, like screen readers, screen scalers or whatever.
I didn't understand that we were talking about keyboard accessibility to the interface as well. The lack of is something I have noticed in some more modern applications, often proprietary ones. I'm looking at you current version of adobe acrobat pro!
I've always considered this kind of thing to be a production issue, since the use of it easily makes me several times faster at graphics design. It is great aggravation to me when I come across anything in a program that can only be done with a mouse for these reasons alone.
It feels like this started to with the introduction of MS Office's "ribbon" interface.
Where is this coming from? Are there developers (proprietary ones, not op) who are inexperienced at using a computer with a keyboard so they don't realize what they are leaving out? And how important it is?
Or am I still misunderstanding the post and this issue I speak of is something completely unrelated?
deviled-tux@reddit
Keyboard centric design is a11y issue as some people have arthritis or other motility issues
Tai9ch@reddit
Rule #1: Don't let angry jerks on the internet ruin your day.
That's hard when you're trying to make your time and attention available to arbitrary nice people on the internet. How to balance that is an unsolved problem.
perkited@reddit
Unfortunately nowadays it's almost all angry jerks, usually the self-absorbed zealot type.
gatornatortater@reddit
Compared to the early days it is way more polite. I'm afraid that I have to be the old guy in the room who suggests that maybe people need to man up and thicken their skin.
MatchboxHoldenUte@reddit
Exactly, all this development takes place online, and with social media there's no real distinction between concerned users or trolls, and everything is emotionally magnifies compared to in-person conversations. It's a tough environment to develop for a big open-source project, and I'm forever greatful for those that do.
bawng@reddit
The only accessibility thing I want from Gnome is tray icons but they just claim I don't really want them and I should feel bad.
gatornatortater@reddit
Or being able to see all matches when doing a start menu search...
mrtruthiness@reddit
That was a huge rant.
And, IMO, not well written. When one is looking for clarity, don't make opposite statements ... especially as bullet points. It's not sarcastic; it's not clever to try to draw a contrast (e.g. between "angry" vs. "furious") ... it's just distracting and poor.
e.g.
The Title. It's not just click-baity. It's an unclear play on "we" or a statement of opposite view.
The title of Section 2: "I'm Not Angry". Again, a shitty title ... when only done only to try to contrast with "I'm Furious ..."
The Truth Nobody is Telling You. Lists mostly well-known things. Clearly somebody has been telling me. ....
It's truly an awful and poorly written rant. The only thing that is excusable in any way is one of the statements that seems self-documenting:
which is made pointless by his apparent reversal and admission that he's going to work on accessibility systems anyway:
gatornatortater@reddit
well.. it is a rant. And clearly an emotional one as well. Would read like it was made by LLM if it didn't have those kinds of issues that you listed.
mrtruthiness@reddit
One could have a well-written rant with clear arguments. I think negatively on people/projects who/which don't express themselves well.
AllPlayNoWork2@reddit
I recently helped a partially blind man with a motor disability to set up his pc. The one he uses before had died after possibly two decades. It sadly died with all his self made accessibility tools on an ancient KDE. At the end I capitulated at somehow recreating that setup and switched to modern gnome. It wasn't perfect, but it worked and that reliably. I am so thankful for the work you do op and for the stress you putting yourself into.
QuackdocTech@reddit
Personally, I have given up on Linux a11y. I'm not disabled, but I do maintain setups for multiple people who do need accessibility tools so I'm 2nd party not a third one.
You cant just have "an osk" or "a screenreader". You need flexibility and choice. Some OSKs work for some users, others work for other users.
Screenreaders are the same way. and you have hundreds of other "niche" a11y tools like attention monitors, so on and so forth.
We need a standardization of protocols and all the major linux players are guilty of causing significant fragmentation that makes a11y on Linux a bloody joke.
Wayland is horrid for this not like x11 was good but Wayland is especially a bag of crap for it.
Misicks0349@reddit
I'd imagine this is what Newton and AccessKit are designed for.
QuackdocTech@reddit
And they do decent jobs at what they do, but they are not the be all and end all of accessibility
Puuurpleee@reddit
Despite not being disabled, I often use stuff usually categorised as accessibility. I use a red filter to reduce eye strain at night, LED flash notifications when I’m wearing headphones. It really annoys me when 10M subscriber YouTube channels don’t have subtitles on their videos, and it seems like a similar issue with companies funding a11y on Linux.
AdventurousChest7444@reddit
Formatting from 1993, completely unreadable. Also the first 10 paragraphs are rage bait. Not reading this shit.
Puuurpleee@reddit
What do you mean? It’s very much readable, and I don’t see any of it as rage bait.
retiredwindowcleaner@reddit
accessibility is a tty with large enough contrastful text to read and the possibility to type in.
blackcain@reddit
Kudos to EvilSkeleton for putting a spotlight on the a11y work that's been ongoing. Big thanks to KDE and GNOME projects for their work here.
Y'alls should be grateful for these two projects who do the lions share of the engineering that needs to be done to progress the Linux desktop and apps.
Even if you're using some of the other desktops - note that they are all downstreams of either of these projects. While I'm appreciative of their existence, they are not moving the desktop space forward like KDE and GNOME do. Please make sure to donate to their efforts as you are able.
DioEgizio@reddit
That is very true. People screaming that accessibility is trash on Linux forget that it is not managed by big companies but by volunteers
Immediate_Song4279@reddit
I think that frustration and appreciation are compatible emotions. Accessibility is a problem, but yeah blame and vitriol doesn't help.
I think a big issue is that documentation, when it exists, is written for technical users with gaps that seem obvious. We have a magical new technology that could solve this, but some many programmer-inclined spaces are reacting to it with hostility. I've dabbled with linux my whole life, but it was only about this last year when said, unnamed technology allowed me to workaround these obstacles.
Immediate_Song4279@reddit
This supremacy of GNOME, is it responsible for how Files 46.2 only allows three sortable columns in list view? Am I supposed to be impressed?
kapijawastaken@reddit
really putting the evil part in his username
whizzwr@reddit
He ~~mad~~furious , but probably for understandable reason.
Clickbait blog title also works effectively. You did readx didn't you? Now imagine if the title is "state of Linux accessibility ecosystem".