Full Stack Dev with 25 YOE and I cannot even get an interview

[-]

cestvrai@reddit

I can imagine age discrimination starting to bite.

Have you thought about mid-lance? So, partnering with someone who will line up assignments for a cut.

[-]

13ae@reddit

It doesn't seem like OP is older than 50 given his other comments, highly doubt this is age discrimination.

[-]

PedanticProgarmer@reddit

Age discriminations starts at 40 in software.

[-]

13ae@reddit

i work with a lot of engineers over 40 🤷‍♀️

[-]

forgottenHedgehog@reddit

The only ones I know who are having trouble are the ones who have stopped learning years ago.

[-]

I have taught boot camps for 20 years. The age discrimination started for me at about 40 as well. I still get plenty of headhunters, but there was a very noticeable decline in recruiters reaching out after I turned 40.

Tldr: it has nothing to do with learning. There's a lot of very blatant ageism out there.

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

Let's agree that it's both?

Ageism is a thing for sure, but if you look at the average developer who hasn't kept up with modern tech and is still trying to coast on what they learned a long time ago, most of them will be older (let's say 40+)..

And if you've been coasting on 20-year-old knowledge because you've been working for 20 years at the same company where your actual tech skills are less important than your deep knowledge of all the idiosyncrasies and legacy problems with your company's stack and systems, and then you're laid off...

Well all that company-specific knowledge won't serve you much when looking for a new job if your tech skills aren't be up to expectations..

Which will act as a multiplier to your age factor, and potentially even trigger ageism where it wouldn't have been a factor if you had been up on modern tech..

I've seen this pattern many times.. I would bet (with no insider knowledge) that this combination is more common than straight-up ageism against someone who is fully up to speed on modern technologies and tools.

[-]

gizamo@reddit

It's certainly both, but ageism is obviously the vast majority of the problem simply because it's easier for recruiters and hiring managers to use it as a filter. It's also more useful because age/experience is often what determines someone's current salary. If the company is seeking someone in a low salary range, eliminating the older candidates simplifies that.

Also, I would say that the opposite of your point is also true. That is, it's often easier for experienced devs to learn new languages and tools because they already have a significant knowledge advantage over younger devs. It's also more likely that they've already learned it simply because they've had years or decades to do so, while the younger devs has only had a few years.

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

Also, I would say that the opposite of your point is also true. That is, it's often easier for experienced devs to learn new languages and tools because they already have a significant knowledge advantage over younger devs. It's also more likely that they've already learned it simply because they've had years or decades to do so, while the younger devs has only had a few years.

I agree with this as a general statement, but the type of developer I was describing, the one coasting for 20 years on old knowledge?

They are going to really struggle to learn new things because they haven't had to (or tried to) learn new things in a long time.

Learning is a skill, if you don't use it, you lose it.

[-]

gizamo@reddit

Yep. I agree. I'm not denying that people like that exist. They certainly do. But, that's irrelevant to discrimination. There are lazy people in all age cohorts. The old lazy devs stop learning, the young lazy ones learn slowly, poorly, or not at all. The only reason corporations favor gambling on the latter is because the gamble is smaller and can pay out better -- i.e. lower salaries, usually more debt (lingering from recently graduating) and higher mortgages, longer before retirement, etc. Again, tons of reasons for discrimination, the risk of laziness is just a small portion of them.

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

I'm not denying that people like that exist. They certainly do. But, that's irrelevant to discrimination.

I will disagree with you here, but this is just my opinion and yours is valid too of course.

The stereotype of the "out-of-touch older developer" is pretty common in my experience and feeds into ageism and discrimination.

I really haven't heard much talk about "young lazy developers" in my time.. Quite the opposite, the stereotype I've encountered the most - that you almost allude to - is that young developers are cheap, hungry and plentiful..

[-]

gizamo@reddit

The stereotype of young devs being worthlessly inexperienced is much more common than old devs being lazy. Again, the discrimination happens because they are cheaper. It's that simple. It's all just cost. I didn't "almost allude" to that; I've said it plainly and directly multiple times in multiple ways.

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

Sure no problem.. There's no confrontation or argument here, we're discussing our opinions and experiences..

Your truth is just as valid as my truth even if they don't align. :-)

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

My team and myself are pretty squarely in the 35-45 age range.

[-]

arthoer@reddit

Doubt it. Most devs are 40 these days.

[-]

PedanticProgarmer@reddit

In 2024, I heard a Chief of Products saying „Bob and Frank are getting old, we need to search for replacement”. These guys were 41 at that time and their role was something resembling Staff. Funnily, the dude was 45 then and he is already gone. Bob and Frank are still here, but sidelined.

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

Some idiot at a small startup

Big tech, F500, big tech adjacent are filled with 40 year + engineers. And these days they are only hiring seniors.

There is something else going on here. I’ll bet it’s one of; * They are not really senior despite the yoe * Location requirements * bad resume or cover letter * their skills not matching many company needs. (Eg: specialist engineer of an unneeded tech stack. Nothing generalist on their resume etc…)

[-]

the300bros@reddit

A lot of us old school types do not even know all the right job role titles and magic words to describe what we can do. I only recently learned some because it was just what I’ve done for ages in my sleep, not even knowing that putting the right spin on it suddenly puts you in a better category.

[-]

coworker@reddit

OP said elsewhere he is full stack with only contract gigs. For 25 years lol

[-]

NoCardio_@reddit

One small company’s bullshit doesn’t really define the market.

[-]

angrynoah@reddit

Surely that can't be true? The number of SWEs has exploded over the past two decades, which must be coming from new grads, who are biased young. I don't have data in front of me but I would wager that much more than 50% of devs are under 40.

[-]

gizamo@reddit

The vast, vast majority are not hired after 40.

Ageism is very real in tech, mate.

[-]

arthoer@reddit

Who knows. I only hire people of my own age.

[-]

gizamo@reddit

I know. I direct dev teams for a Fortune 500 and own two Software Engineering firms that regularly consult with many Fortune 100 and nearly all top tech firms. The rampant ageism in the vast majority of those businesses is blatantly apparent to anyone who has eyes and half a brain.

If you only hire people your age, you are quite literally admitting to violating the law, mate.

[-]

NoCardio_@reddit

I haven’t experienced this at all.

[-]

cestvrai@reddit

I'm 51 years old

Stated in original post

[-]

beepboopnoise@reddit

nah its the economy. I worker with junior 53+ year olds before. shit is just rough across the board.

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

I’ve worked with a few 50+ old guys (and one lady). I think the industry you want to be a dev in is key, though connections also don’t hurt. These devs weren’t in “exciting” roles, and I think all or most of them had a previous career before dev work. One had been a kindergarten teacher. Some did a backwards hop to get out of legacy and into modern stacks, within the same big, non tech focused company. You do boring, institutional CRUD work and it’s not the highest pay but good enough.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

That’s the first I’ve heard that term. How do I do that?

[-]

socialist-viking@reddit

I do that. It's great when it works, but it does mean that someone else is entirely responsible for my work pipeline. I can do it because I founded a company 25 years ago that still does contract work that sometimes needs my talents. Getting a role like that cold without a connection will be nearly impossible.

[-]

i_wayyy_over_think@reddit

Was curious too: here’s what ChatGPT says

“mid-lance” is a playful mash-up of mid-career and freelance. It means pivoting to freelance work in the middle of your career, rather than trying to keep landing traditional full-time roles.

The suggestion is to team up with an agent or boutique agency that specializes in your field. They’ll handle the client-hunting, contract-negotiation, billing, etc., and you focus on doing the work. In return, they take a commission (a “cut”)—say 10–30% of each assignment fee.

[-]

Fleischhauf@reddit

why is this being down voted, is it wrong?

[-]

i_wayyy_over_think@reddit

the people who know are jackasses apparently.

[-]

i_wayyy_over_think@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/l63fmb/experience_with_midlance/

[-]

cestvrai@reddit

I suppose it’s a subset of consulting, maybe you have some connections in that world that would know?

It’s more flexible than traditional consulting in that you have more say on what you work on, with the trade-off being that you have less stability. So closer to freelance on both sides.

The person I know doing this was reached out to and I have no personal experience with it.

[-]

tittywagon@reddit

https://vimeo.com/453229138

[-]

jpec342@reddit

If you have 25 years of experience and can’t get interviews, there is something wrong with your resume.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I spent a lot of time whittling my 6 page resume down to 1 page, as per r/EngineeringResumes, and that got me nowhere. What’s wrong with my resume is that I have an 18 month gap and mostly contract jobs. I’ve been using the same resume for nearly my entire career, and I always got jobs through recruiters cold calling me. Then it all dropped off. I don’t believe it’s my resume.

[-]

ButchDeanCA@reddit

Look at it this way, you have a one page resume likely full of short term contracts. What do you think that says about you?

Contracts are largely very short term, so there is nothing obvious about your commitment to a company long term.
Why only contracts?

I get that it’s an absurd view but remember that those likely reviewing your credentials are not looking at it from a technical standpoint, they’re just asking themselves how much of a risk are you to invest in for a position.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

It never mattered before. I don’t want to commit my life to a company. I value my autonomy.

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

My friend the market has really changed in the last few years.

Reading through this thread, others have said it already: you may need to change your expectations of what worked before, vs what companies are looking for now.

Almost everyone I know who was in your situation of picking and choosing what short-term contracts they wanted because there was a never-ending supply of them have now taken FTE jobs. Demand has changed because companies have changed.

Where I work (large 50k person enterprise) we are doing a complete shift in how we approach work, and for better or worse are moving to a "product mindset" for a lot of our IT and software work, and that means long-term ownership of work by long-lived teams, no more "projects", and so no more outsourcing to agencies or SIs or hiring short-term contractors to just deliver and leave.

From where I sit, I see this trend happening across the industry based on conversations with colleagues and following some hiring trends (because it's part of my job).

Look at any CIO/CTO magazine or website for the last few years and they're full of think pieces and articles on how the project-based model of bringing in outside labour to deliver on software projects is "outdated" and "dangerous".

So hey, it's up to you in the end, I'm sure if you keep trying you'll eventually land something... but "recruiters just cold called me to offer contracts" hasn't been the reality for software devs, senior or otherwise, for a couple of years now..

Even digital agencies are moving away from the sub-contracting model because their clients want the same faces on the work long-term.

Maybe it will come back, but I personally doubt it.

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

This is the opposite of my experience

[-]

sebzilla@reddit

That's great to hear I guess? Or it's not great?

I'm not sure if you are saying your different but equally valid experience is a good thing or not, but I believe you.. The world is a complicated place.

[-]

ButchDeanCA@reddit

And that is perfectly fine, just don’t expect employers to cater to what you want specifically. In today’s market you need to be flexible as you are seeing right now.

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

This is a weird response unless OP is applying to direct to hire roles. Contract roles are way easier to get than the other way around. The interview process is way less (or shorter, at least) BS.

[-]

coworker@reddit

It didn't matter when supply exceeded demand. Now that employers can choose more stable candidates, why wouldn't they?

Not to mention full stack has been hit especially hard with boot campers.

This has always been the risk of job hopping.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

How is this helpful?

[-]

coworker@reddit

Well by knowing the problem, you can better decide how to deal with it.

Options that come to mind: * wait for the market to change * lower expectations (role, comp, company) * switch careers

As of now you keep refusing to acknowledge your role in this situation and are looking for some kind of other strategy that inherently will never work due to the nature of the problem

[-]

BigLoveForNoodles@reddit

I hate to be the guy going against accepted wisdom, but: I would rethink the one-page thing.

When I last went on a job hunt, the first person I shopped my resume to was my wife, who is smarter than I am. Her first question was, “Why is this only one page long?”

”I, uh. Because resumes are supposed to not go over a page in length?”

”You have 23 years of experience. You can have two pages.”

If you have this much experience under your belt, trying to squish it down to one page is isn’t worth it. Recruiters who are looking for experienced developers will generally expect to see a longer resume, and I would wager that one looking at a one-pager that covers 25 years is likely suspicious of what you were doing in that time.

And now, some dumb references:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/wqp3nu/dont_be_fooled_by_the_one_page_rule/

- https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/one-page-or-two-page-resume

- https://www.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/1ih015s/comment/maunert/

- https://ivyexec.com/career-advice/2020/a-two-page-or-more-resume-is-ok-but-only-in-these-cases/

[-]

JimDabell@reddit

As a hiring manager, I loathe short CVs/résumés. If you want to give me a ten pager, go for it. It’s zero effort for me to skim, and I’d rather have more info than less. I don’t even understand the complaint about many pages – it’s no effort at all to skim! What appeals to me is not necessarily going to appeal to the next person. Include it all so the people who are interested in one thing can focus on that and the people who are interested in other things can focus on those.

I’ve got 25+ years of experience, and used to have a lengthy CV. I received plenty of compliments on it. After hearing the same thing over and over about how résumés should be shorter, I tried condensing it to two pages. The shorter version performs far worse than the longer one.

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

Damn you hope anybody who does this knows how to at least format.

[-]

Ok_Slide4905@reddit

You value long CVs because you have a long CV. You are using a datapoint of 1 to give advice. Obvious selection bias.

[-]

commonsearchterm@reddit

basically why hiring overall is a mess. you live and die and the random whims of random people.

[-]

Suspicious-Buddy-114@reddit

That’s what’s wild to me, I’ve never met the person that hired me and I don’t work in the area I was hired for.

[-]

FortuneIIIPick@reddit

They are also a hiring manager, not just some dude replying on Reddit. Or did you skip over that essential point?

[-]

JimDabell@reddit

You have this backwards. I had a long CV because I value long CVs. And my comment clearly took into account three sets of external opinions; I’m not merely describing my preference.

[-]

FortuneIIIPick@reddit

Very much the same experience as yours, better responses with more content. At 30+ years in my industry, my main resume is 7 pages. At the bottom I have a message previous experience is available on request.

[-]

csanon212@reddit

One principal engineer I knew did a lot of hiring and he liked 2+ pagers because it really got him to be able to probe the technical depth of a particular candidate's experience and determine if they were BSing. Good candidates can 'talk shop' and discuss pros and cons of their solutions, draw design diagrams, and tell war stories.

I actually miss that style of interviewing. Now it's all LeetCode as a prerequisite to a behavioral interview which only exists to ensure you're not cheating and not incredibly socially awkward.

[-]

Militop@reddit

Same for me. The more pages I had, the easier it was to get interviews. It makes you look more serious about the role I think.

[-]

Ok-Letterhead3405@reddit

I was told to drop the one page rule too and I had about 11-12 years under my belt. I also was told to tailor my resume to the specific job. Though I only did that for warm or hot leads, or one I really wanted.

[-]

Capable_Method2981@reddit

I get your sentiment but the one page thing is pretty reasonable. I did interview panels for years, it wasn't uncommon at all to realize one of the other panelists missed huge details from the 2nd page of a resume.

[-]

GenshinGoodMihoyoBad@reddit

This 100%, 6 pages is too long but maybe 2 or 3 with that much experience. It just makes it look like you did nothing for 6 years if you can’t showcase properly what you did

[-]

Brief-Knowledge-629@reddit

I have always heard one page per decade of experience, like way before I was in tech. I believe THIS is the conventional wisdom and everyone saying one page are the outliers.

Education and your contact information take up 25% of the first page. I have 7 YoE and I had to get creative trying to fit it all on one page, mostly because my experience was spread across 3 different roles and each role requires additional space for the company name and job title.

This persons resume should take up 3 sheets of paper, if they can't fill two pages worth of accomplishments across 25 years, THAT is their problem.

[-]

BirkenstockStrapped@reddit

Consolidate your roles into:

What value you provided the company/ your team?
What value you provided to yourself in professional development

Roles do not really capture either of these things well. Waste of space. The only role that matters is the one i'm hiring you for. Consider building a word cloud for your resume to better understand how you sell yourself. My resume has the phrase rewrote and redesign and performance > 50 times. I don't hide who I am and who my ideal target employer is.

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

Three pages is too much for u/Chemical-Plankton420 , as they can drop as irrelevant anything that's over two decades ago.

[-]

jrolette@reddit

Education and your contact information take up 25% of the first page.

With 25 YoE, education should be 1-2 lines at the end of the resume. No one cares with that much experience.

[-]

ManInBlackHat@reddit

One page resumes also made a lot more sense back when people tended to stay with the same company as well. Considering that people are now told to job hop early in their career, it’s really hard to keep things down to one page.

Of course, query how many people even handle a hard copy resume as well!

[-]

Brief-Knowledge-629@reddit

My 7 YoE were at one company but different roles. Takes up the same amount of space because you have to re-declare the company and the name of the new position.

I think the one page advice is intended for new grads, because they don't have anything to say, I've seen some new grad resumes that were pages long...bro what do you even have on there. Reddit is mostly new grads, so thats the advice that gets parroted most often

[-]

jmking@reddit

Yeah, I'm up to 22 years of experience myself. I have three pages - it's totally undercutting my experience and value otherwise.

But one thing I do suggest people do is progressively lower the number of bullets under a job the older it is.

So the most recent experience gets some space to breathe. I might have something like 5 bullet points for my current role, and I lose a bullet or two for each successive older role.

Once I get back to stuff early in my career, it might just be a one-line explanation of my role. The older the role, the less relevant it is. It's only noted to show the breadth of my experience.

It's not about what you want to tell employers, it's about what they want to see and will be useful to them.

[-]

RealFrux@reddit

I’ve heard no longer than 5 pages. I don’t get why you would try to go for one page if you have long relevant experience.

The important thing IMO is to make sure your first page “says it all” why you are an interesting candidate for THIS position. Then you use the other pages to back up your “first page claims” with work experience descriptions, education etc.

I don’t see why a recruiter would not want it this way. A short, “on point”, first page and an immediate way to go deeper if interesting. Or just skimming the rest to get a feel for if the first page claims seems backed up by relevant experience.

If more than 4-5 pages you could start asking yourself if everything in page 2-5 is relevant even as “extra information” or not written in a too verbose way.

[-]

saxuri@reddit

Yeah I think one pager advice is mostly for folks who have fewer years of experience. If you actually have a lot of experience then more than 1 is fine

[-]

ViveIn@reddit

Yup. 1 page is not accurate for seniors.

[-]

basskittens@reddit

As someone who has to read these resumes I never go past the fold. Last two jobs is usually enough for me to know if we want to call this person.

[-]

csanon212@reddit

In the before-times when I actually got to interview and hire people, I actually appreciated two page resumes because it gave me something to talk about with the person. I preferred this no matter the total length of experience. Tell me about your project with data warehousing and Apache Airflow and challenges of vendor solutions vs. custom-made adapter services. Don't just say you did some "data engineering".

[-]

hardolaf@reddit

My advice to NCGs has always been make the first page the highlights and the second page anything else you want to share. As you get more experience, replace things like collegiate clubs or volunteer experience with details from your prior jobs. And then go over 2 pages when details from prior experience can't fit anymore while being concise.

[-]

serg06@reddit

On the flip side, is your experience from 10 years ago even still relevant? And if you add decades old experience, will you face age-based discrimination?

[-]

hardolaf@reddit

My experience from a decade ago is still relevant to my job. I just had to pull out skills that I hadn't used in a long time (about 9 years) to solve a problem.

[-]

darkveins2@reddit

What recruiters want is: 1. Tech degree from a university they know 2. Contiguous years of FTE experience at a company they know

Working for a contracting agency doesn’t look as good. Working at or even founding a relatively unknown startup doesn’t look as good either. Particularly in a layoff period.

You could look for FTE entry level positions, and work there at least a year. Then when you switch companies, you can jump up the ladder due to your previous experience.

[-]

Sensanaty@reddit

Yeah I mean even with only 2.5 years in a single company, I could (and do) fill out an entire page of my resume with just the stuff I did there. Taking all the experience I have, all together?

I try keep it to 2 pages, but 1 is definitely too restrictive. Had great success with my 2 pages so far, too.

[-]

Oakw00dy@reddit

As a once job applicant and a hiring manager, I can empathically state "fuck recruiters". Never again. Also, nobody is going to hire you because you've got 23 years of experience, they will hire you because you've got relevant experience. If you're applying for a Rust developer gig, nobody cares if you were a FoxPro guru back in the 90s. I have yet to see a job req that asks for more than 8 years of experience in anything so listing job experience back to the green screen terminal days serves no purpose except to aggravate the hiring manager.

[-]

Militop@reddit

15 years ago, I used PHP as my main language for almost 2 years. I still get PHP interviews, which I'm really not interested in. You never know what can bring you that sixth page.

[-]

Oakw00dy@reddit

Yeah but that would be in the job description, right? A PHP gig wouldn't necessarily care about your Rust skills. Point being, target your audience.

[-]

Ashken@reddit

I second this. I’ve been using a 4 page resume for a few years now and it’s got me 2 jobs.

[-]

TheTigersAreNotReal@reddit

Look into the /r/cscareerquestions resume wiki. A single-page resume is only recommended for new grads and people with low experience. You should be using a multi-page resume as your experience is your best bargaining chip.

[-]

sneakpeekbot@reddit

Here's a sneak peek of /r/cscareerquestions using the top posts of the year!

#1: Berkeley Computer Science professor says even his 4.0 GPA students are getting zero job offers, says job market is possibly irreversible
#2: [6 Month Update] Buddy of mine COMPLETELY lied in his job search and he ended up getting tons of inter views and almost tripling his salary ($85k -> $230k)
#3: Home Depot software devs to start having to spend 1 day per quarter working a full day in a retail store

[-]

Acceptable_Durian868@reddit

I hire engineers regularly. If I saw a one page resume for somebody with 25 years of experience, I'd assume you've just been coasting that whole time.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

That’s dumb.

[-]

Acceptable_Durian868@reddit

Is it? Perhaps it's dumb to try to compress 25 years into a single page.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Clearly, you’re not following the thread.

[-]

ianpaschal@reddit

In Europe it’s smart to have 2. An American style 1-pager with your biggest achievements and most relevant stuff, and the CV which has everything. I typically have my CV and edit it down to a 1 page resume tailored to whatever role I’m applying to.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

In Europe, do they still include age and a headshot?

[-]

ianpaschal@reddit

Yeah usually just in some little “about” section. Tiny photo, age, home city, email, phone number, maybe drivers license (some companies require this if you might have to do onsite work, etc)

[-]

Tupley_@reddit

Can you post your resume OP? Feel free to anonymize as much as possible but it definitely has to be that. I have decades less experience than you but am getting more callbacks.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I would have to anonymize it. in the meantime what are some things I should look for that I might be doing wrong?

[-]

roger_ducky@reddit

The way I organized my resume is:

First page: Contact info Visa status Sales pitch of what I have to offer (1-3 sentence “elevator pitch”) Laundry list of skills plus number of years in each

Remaining pages, including “blank” spaces on first page:

Normal list of companies and detailed types of projects bullet points.

Total pages: 5 so far. But stupid systems will index the important info on the first page anyway. Rest can be read by hiring manager once HR confirms checklist on first page.

[-]

Oakw00dy@reddit

Just having waded through 700+ resumes that passed the HR checklist, 5 pages is way too much. My advice: Tailor your resume for each application. See what skills are required and/or desired and list just those. Find out what the company actually does. Match your elevator pitch to the position you're applying for, why are you the best candidate for that job? List your experience that is relevant to the position, nobody cares about the rest. ChatGPT can do that for you in a few minutes. Also, for me personally, unless you can measurably quantify it, every resume with "improved X by Y%" goes to the BS reject pile.

[-]

roger_ducky@reddit

I also have nearly 30 years of experience. I do list it in reverse chronological order, so you can read as far as you care to. It’s basically a 1-2 pager if you’re just looking at my most recent experience.

[-]

AussieHyena@reddit

That's roughly how CoPilot suggested organising my resume recently. Front load it with the skills and knowledge and then employment history / personal projects / education covers the how and where.

Otherwise, most of my employment history had a lot of duplication of skills and knowledge.

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

If you are not getting interviews, your resume or the cover letter are the main problems.

It sounds like you fixed its format, fine.

Then it is the content. It’s probably not relevant to the jobs you are applying. Either your experience is off, or the resume is not showcasing the right skills the HM or recruiter is looking for.

A generic cover letter that you copy paste would also harm you.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

In 25 years, I’ve never used a cover letter.

[-]

death_hen@reddit

If a job posting asks for a cover letter and you don’t include one, it can be an automatic rejection without even reading your resume. I know it’s not a listed requirement for a lot of job postings, but it definitely is on some, so that makes me think you’re running into this reason for being rejected, at least in some cases.

As someone who always asks for a cover letter when I’m hiring, it gives me a way to gauge the applicant’s genuine interest in the role, lets them help me by calling out the relevant experience I should pay attention to on their resume, and frankly it helps me weed out people who don’t pay attention to detail (or think it’s not important to bother with the application instructions). There are so many people applying, I need ways to narrow down the list off the bat.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Then the market has changed. Are you in the US?

[-]

death_hen@reddit

I am, and at a very small company for context.

When you say the market has changed, what do you mean? There are tons of developers looking for work right now since the tech layoffs of the past couple of years.

Regardless, all I’m saying is that if the job posting asks for a cover letter, they’re doing that on purpose because they want one, so don’t skip it.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I don’t see too many jobs asking for a cover letter, either. I wouldn’t apply for a job that asked for a cover letter and not provide one. I’m looking for contracts. Get in and get out.

[-]

Vegetable_Wishbone92@reddit

I'm beginning to understand why you've been unemployed for nearly two years. You need to take the feedback in this thread seriously and adjust your mindset.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

The feedback in this thread is not all the same.

[-]

gefahr@reddit

Wait you're applying for contract gigs only? Not FTE?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yes. I do tech work to finance my art projects. I know contracting has become a dirty word, but I’m quite good at it. I have a comp sci degree.

[-]

gefahr@reddit

I just think that's super important context.. it's an entirely different hiring process and everything.

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

Ok then it’s your resume. A terrible cover letter would have hurt you but not using cover letter is not necessarily bad.

Something in your resume is bad. * You have said you are moving to Italy from TX. What does your resume state about this? * You have said you only worked at non-FTE roles. Are they too many too short gigs?

If you DM me your resume I can give feedback. I’m a hiring manager and we are hiring.

[-]

El_Tash@reddit

One piece of advice I got once is to shape each item of experience in terms of the measurable impact to the business.

So, instead of saying, "implemented and supported a payment system for the xyz team," you'd say, "I designed and built the apps payment system, resulting in $50mm in additional revenue".

"I built and supported a logging and monitoring system" becomes "I implemented a system health check and logging infrastructure that resulted in a 50% reduction in incident turnaround time and 30% fewer problems."

[-]

BillyBobJangles@reddit

As someone who reads a lot of resumes, this gets way overused.

Be specific when it matters. Being the tech lead of a 3 person dev team is a lot different experience than being a tech lead for a 10 person dev team for example.

Throwing around percentages and revenue estimates doesn't inspire any sort of confidence. When a resume has a bunch of them my BS meter goes way up. Like saying you generated 50m revenue from adding a payment system is a good example.

I'm going to think "yeah right the app generated revenue because people wanted to pay for it, the payment system for the app didn't generate anything..."

[-]

jojoRonstad@reddit

There is nothing I enjoy more than asking how these metrics were arrived at. People have no idea.

[-]

GoGades@reddit

Yea, whenever I've interviewed people who throw those impressive numbers around, a little bit of digging always ends up with awkward silences and pauses.

If the data is legit, go fo it. If not, it's throwing blood in the water.

[-]

drjeats@reddit

How would you respond to someone in that moment saying "I applied generous napkin-math there to make the numbers look good so I could land an interview. What actually happened there was...."?

[-]

steve_nice@reddit

Thats the problem, all of the resume builder programs make metrics the #1 priority. Like if you have no metrics you get a low score for you resume. Its dumb but its just the way its set up and I hate it.

[-]

upsidedownshaggy@reddit

This is something I've been struggling with to be honest.

At my previous job I had access to all sorts of metrics that I probably should've paid more attention to but didn't see much value in since I worked for a small-ish private college, and the ones I do remember aren't all that impressive. Now at my current job I don't have access to these metrics anymore without asking my seniors for them when they have the time. Makes me feel like my resume is slowly stalling out.

[-]

El_Tash@reddit

Well if you over do it, sure, but (and I am speculating here, its impossible to know without seeing it) OPs resume is most likely suffering from a lack of specificity and confidence.

Adding details like that can improve it significantly.

That said, the best thing OP can do is pay money to have someone review and improve it.

[-]

Oakw00dy@reddit

If I read just "I implemented X that improved Y by Z%" in a resume, my first reaction is "so?". Was it part of your job or did you go above and beyond? What was the baseline (if your system had 3 problems and you improved it by 30%, it's not a significant reduction)? If you instead say "Suggested and implemented improvements that resulted in additional savings of $100,000 a year" or "Proposed and designed a workflow that decreased the number of rejected payments from 3000 to 30 in a month" it shows the concrete business impact of your personal contribution.

[-]

BillyBobJangles@reddit

I think Tupley is suggesting you just be 20 years younger..

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

Not really. Every big tech, F500 and big tech adjacent are hiring only senior folks at the moment. That’s not it. It’s their experience, what is inside that 25 years?

[-]

BillyBobJangles@reddit

You saying ageism just suddenly disappeared from tech?

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

FAANG, FAANG adjacent and F500 are filled with 40+ year engineers. How do I know? I work at one of those companies. And I’m a hiring manager.

Doesn’t mean that ageism doesn’t exist in tech. In smaller places it absolutely does.

At big tech there can be another problem. With age we want to see certain experience. If your resume is filled with 25 years of junior engineer activities or some irrelevant stack/skill, then it will be seen as “you are struggling to grow yourself” and will be seen as a red flag.

[-]

waka324@reddit

Honestly, share your resume in r/EngineeringResumes .

Ping me when you have.

Update your LinkedIn profile too. When searching for jobs on linkedIn, the AI tools can tell you if it shows as a match to your skills or not. Addressing the gaps in reality on your profile will have recruiters contacting you through the platform once the jobs board starts showing more matches to your skills.

[-]

rogorak@reddit

Agree with this, also ping me when resume is posted i will review.

[-]

Accomplished_End_138@reddit

With the uptake in ai it is used a lot more to weed out resumes, this has created an Arma was with ai to make the perfect resume, and filtering out resumes.

I think the resume system is currently brokennoverall but no one know what else to do

[-]

RedTheRobot@reddit

I would suggest maybe taking your wealth of knowledge and create a video series to teach others. Also as much as people like to hate on AI here (even myself to a degree) it does get people’s attention. I had a full stack interview and I mentioned AI because it felt right in the conversation and the interviewers seemed to get excited and ask me questions on how I use it. I explained it wasn’t the do all solution but it did help with the boiler plate code I needed to do. I will stress be very careful mentioning AI because it is still a subject that could cause a bit of fear.

Projects like the video series make for interesting conversation during the interview process that makes you stand out. I talked about an automation that I made and it got the interviewer excited. Interviewers ask a lot of the same questions and get a lot of the same answers. So to stand out and be remembered work on personal projects that are exciting and new.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Your interviewers likely got excited when you mentioned AI because they’re either worried about losing their jobs to it or wondering if your idea is worth exploiting.

[-]

DorianGre@reddit

Send it to me and i’ll take a look at it.

[-]

BirkenstockStrapped@reddit

Hi. Im a successful independent consultant. Send me your resume and maybe we'll do a zoom call to at least network. I've helped a lot of people. It's fun making people's lives enriched with more memories.

[-]

kingmotley@reddit

Sorry, I don't buy the 1 page resume at all. Mine is 3 pages long, although I have 35+ years experience. If you are (mostly) contract, then just put the duration of the contract next to each job, and leave the dates off.

[-]

Personal-Status-3666@reddit

People now just put your resume into Chatgdp for analysis.

Chategdp says +10years carrier should have more than one page.

Welcome to the new world.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

People apparently don’t use ChatGPT to spellcheck though

[-]

riotshieldready@reddit

I promise it’s your CV.

1) In the past he was a recruiter reading your CV, now it’s an LLM 2) one page is not nearly enough to cover your experience 3) at your level it needs to focus on outcomes along with experience. If you don’t have quantifiable impact your work did it will get auto rejected.

Rebuild and aim for 3 pages and focus on showing experience, depth of knowledge and impact you have made. I have half your experience and had to find a new job in 2023 and it took me 3 months to have 6 offers. I also had one CV I just added to for forever and I had to rebuild it once I was getting 0 hits, and it worked wonders.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Land your dream job with This One Neat Trick!

[-]

riotshieldready@reddit

Guess the alternative of just complaining is better?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Ah yes, because if it’s not one thing, it must be the other. If it’s not Coke, it must be Pepsi.

[-]

defmacro-jam@reddit

Last time I was out of work, out of desperation and a grim sense of curiosity, I flew two resume to every company I applied to. One showing my full 30+ year experience, and another showing only 6 years.

I had my first phone screen the next day. I had a job three weeks later. They claimed that they had never seen the full resume.

It is a bad idea to be over 50 and unemployed.

[-]

LLoyderino@reddit

Developer resumes tend to be slightly longer, at 25 years of experience one page might be too short imo. I'm at 7.5 years and my resume is 2 pages and it does get me some interviews for mid (P3) positions

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

tbh, nobody I’ve spoken to liked the tight, 1 page resume. The recruiters seem to prefer the long one I’ve been adding to since I was 25.

[-]

DrMerkwuerdigliebe_@reddit

Mine is 3 pages. First half page is 6 lines of summary and bullet points. Many only view the first half page and that is fine.

[-]

Franks2000inchTV@reddit

1 page resume is good for a junior, but for 25y experience it's gonna feel very light.

[-]

ReasonNervous2827@reddit

Even at nine years, I'd struggle to accurately convey the things I accomplished without going past three or four pages.

[-]

LLoyderino@reddit

yeah, I believe CVs purpose is to "breach the first barrier". aka getting to the interviewer.

I was skeptical of the two column layout, but when I switched to it I went from 100% to 80% rejection rate

Then I realised how important the "shopping list of skills" (or so I call them) is. Just adapting that list to the position makes a big difference between getting considered or not

Btw I'm from EU so things might be different here, so don't take my words as a panacea 😁

[-]

new2bay@reddit

Which two-column layout are you referring to? I’m also having a very high rejection rate at 10 YoE. Every bit of resume advice out there seems to conflict with every other recommendation. But, if you’re seeing a 20% success rate, up from 0%, that might be something I’m interested in trying.

[-]

LLoyderino@reddit

Pretty much I have my hard and soft skills on a small right column. everything else stays on the left.

I keep it simple and relevant to what I'm applying. Usually I manage to send at most 2-3 CV daily because it takes me a long time between reading the offer, figuring out what's it about, verifying if the company is legit (thank you data harvest job postings) and reworking the CV...

My reworking is mostly done on the skills column. But also I tend to highlight more relevant experiences to what the company does. for example: let's say I would be applying at booking, I'd ofc highlight an experience I had in developing booking systems, rather than my experience in writing kernel modules

I also had a long discussion with a friend of my gf, who's an HR, and she was of much help in figuring out my mistakes in how I approached the CV. I was personally baffled as well when she told me to use two column layout, but most important change was definitely highlight that "skills shopping list", even though personally I'm not fond of it... it's so...meaningless and souless

but I cannot blame HRs for not knowing certain things. eg: so you know java? can you do java 11?? certain things sound ridiculous, but an HR is not hiring just programmers, so I can imagine getting deep knowledge in every field wouldn't be easy, hence the "shopping list"

[-]

Consistent_Mail4774@reddit

What sort of 2 columns layout? I read that it's better to be 1 column for ATS sake and followed a popular template for that purpose to make it 1 column.

[-]

Dymatizeee@reddit

Nobody got time to read a resume longer than 1 page

[-]

coworker@reddit

Companies hire a lot fewer senior+ people than juniors so they definitely have time to read multiple pages. Plus, you know within the last 2 previous roles whether you need to keep reading or not anyway

[-]

hardolaf@reddit

If a junior gave me a 2 page resume, I'd read it. It's not much longer to skim through than 1 page.

[-]

brotrr@reddit

They sure as hell do for senior positions. The 1 page rule is for like 5 or less YOE

[-]

LLoyderino@reddit

I think this is why visual hierarchy is important, a two-three page CV can highlight lots of experiences and personal projects. With proper hierarchy you can make the reader experience everything without them getting bored

[-]

DapperCam@reddit

7 pages is too long, but with your level of experience I think 2 pages might be the sweet spot.

[-]

LaurentZw@reddit

Add a summary of the roles before 2010 or some other cutoff, but be detailed about the more recent roles. Start creating a an app that you are excited about and put that in your resume as the latest role. Something like myaiapp - designed and built an Ai app using supabase and react native. It is a good conversation starter and shows that you are excited about building stuff.

[-]

Treebro001@reddit

6 Is way too much imo. 2 is probably the sweet spot.

[-]

ButchersBoy@reddit

Similar experience level. I keep mine to 2.

Do you think age is a factor? Curious because I'm about the same.

[-]

FortuneIIIPick@reddit

I expect to see at least 2 pages for every 10 years of experience in software development.

[-]

3flaps@reddit

Is a gap really such a big issue?

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

I’ve been using the same resume for nearly my entire career, and I always got jobs through recruiters cold calling me. Then it all dropped off. I don’t believe it’s my resume.

1) you're a different person to 20 years ago

2) it's a radically different job market today vs 20yrs ago

You shouldn't be using the same CV as you were before.

Strip out anything that's often 15yrs old from your CV. Go very light on anything 10 to 15 yrs ago (or even drop entirely). Go light on the details on things 5 to 10yrs ago, just hit the key highlights of the biggest impact. Focus on your last 5yrs, while trying to paper over your biggest gaps.

[-]

seriouslysampson@reddit

Why would contract work prevent you from getting more contract work though?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Because I’m lazy and I’m asking recruiters who don’t know how to market me to find me work I should be finding myself.

[-]

Chili-Lime-Chihuahua@reddit

I've got about 20 years of experience, and my resume is just a pinch above two pages because of my most recent position now. I'd like to get it back to two pages. Perhaps you need to give yourself some more room and also be more selective what you're putting on your resume. Are you limiting how far back into your past you're going, or are you trying to cram 20 years of experience on a single page?

I think sharing the resume will get your the best feedback.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Reading many of these responses, I’m reminded why I decided to take time off in the first place.

[-]

Dirty_Rapscallion@reddit

I have 12 YoE and I have 1 1/2 pages. I can't imagine fitting 25 years on a single page without making it impossible to understand your resume.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

My 1 page resume only covers 12 years. If you read some of the other responses, apparently you don’t want to advertise your age if you’re over 40~

[-]

Dirty_Rapscallion@reddit

I assume I jump around more than you, since I need more pages for the same years.

[-]

SuperTrashPanda@reddit

18 month gap = independent contractor. Fill it in with some of the things you cut.

[-]

rdlpd@reddit

My resume was quite long and i had no luck getting it past AI tools and agents... So i made it shorter to two pages... All of a sudden agents could scan it and so could AI and i started getting attention from agents...

Then i added the tech stack i have used for every role, and added a section at the for projects... I am not sure if its luck or not but now i started getting phone calls and interviews.

Dont go with 1 page rule. Our cv is technical, and so what we do. Make sure its easy to scan it with a skills section, and make short summaries of each role. If you feel you left things out, then maybe a projects section towards the end.

[-]

GoGades@reddit

Here's my hack to defuse resume gap questions (99% from HR drone/recruiters):

"Working in this industry for 25yo has given me the financial ability to be able to take some time off to work on personal projects and spend more time with family. I am full of energy and ready to go at it again!"

Every time I have used that, they just moved on. What are they going to do, ask to see my bank balance and investment portfolio?

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

DO NOT tell people you have 25 years of experience. You think the 25 year old hr manager is doing to look favorably that you have as much experience as they've been alive? They won't actually. Grandpa's resume gets tossed in the trash.

[-]

GoGades@reddit

You don't think they can tell I have 25 years (actually, 30) from my resume ? If I'm talking to HR, we're already past that.

If you suggest leaving out experience from the resume, it's pointless - they'll be able to tell when they meet me in person, if they couldn't do basic math from my graduation year. If they discriminate on age, you're just delaying the inevitable.

Frankly, my approach comes across as a bit of a flex. The subtext is "I can afford to take a break when I feel like it, I don't need this job, convince me."

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

It depends on where the problem resides. If the problem is you're not even making it to the coffee talk or technical rounds that means you're getting filtered out at the top of the funnel.

Yes, completely agree with what you're saying. If you make it to the interview phase there's no hiding it - but at that point you're resume has done all it can do.

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

disagree all you want. You can easily A/B test this theory.

[-]

Additional_Olive3318@reddit

It’s easy to set up a company and do some personal work during those gaps anyway.

[-]

xamott@reddit

From the resumes I’ve been handed in my 20 years of hiring, there is no such thing as the one page rule in our industry. So I’m guessing you were never in a hiring position? I saw plenty of 12 page resumes but that’s insane screw those guys. I think three pages makes sense for you. Ppl want details of your work.

[-]

ButterPotatoHead@reddit

Your resume is probably fine. But you could post it here and take your name off of it to get feedback.

I'm in my mid-50's and my resume is a mile long. I've had over 17 jobs. I now cut out about half of the job and all of the jobs more than 4 jobs ago just get a brief one line mention. I basically put everything meaningful in the top half of the first page. If they read past that I can tell them what they want to know in a phone screen.

[-]

Ok_Bathroom_4810@reddit

mostly contract jobs

This is probably why. I am a hiring manager and I skip resumes that are contract heavy. Have never had good luck with people from contractor backgrounds. Don’t care about your 18month gap at all.

[-]

bastardpants@reddit

I was in a similar situation recently while looking for a job, sending out dozens of applications and cover letters with no interviews. My longest time with one company was with a defense contractor (8 out of 15 years listed). I wonder if listing that time as being a "contractor" was negatively affecting my search.

Extra fun: I can't really add things like "impact statements" in that time because it would require pre-publication review, and details like that could likely end up being classified.

[-]

Ok_Bathroom_4810@reddit

Possibly, but 8 years is a pretty good stint. It’s mostly the people with a bunch of 6-18month contract gigs that I avoid.

[-]

karl-tanner@reddit

The guy you're replying to is wrong. I have 20 yoe and I had a 20% response rate when in the past I got hounded constantly by faangs and startups. Just keep making tweaks and applying. I don't have a better solution, everyone is facing this problem now. Our govt hasn't penalized the corps destroying labor markets so this was a long time coming honestly.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yes, this tracks with my intuition, and it is what I’ve done in the past during slow markets. I’m just not trying very hard because I have other things going on in my life and just want a role to land in my lap.

Many of these answers are basically variations of “land your dream job with this One Neat Trick”.

[-]

Ordinary_Shape6287@reddit

I am a one page evangelist, but once you have more than a decade experience, two is reasonable

[-]

Ty-Ren@reddit

OP I believe you've already received this feedback but I just want to reaffirm - as someone also actively in the job hunt:

It is acceptable for professionals with a lot of experience to have a 2+ page resume. Given your 25 YOE I'd aim for 2 or 3 pages.

The following is just my personal speculation but I think with the rise of AI tailored resumes a lot of good candidates are being overlooked due to not matching the description 'exactly'. It's also an employer's market due to the surplus of devs job hunting and limited hiring. Good luck OP.

[-]

Militop@reddit

One-page resume for 25 years of experience is so not right. At least with 4 pages, they see the experience. If I were you I would send both resumes alternatively.

[-]

artificialbutthole@reddit

Bad idea. Make it at least 2 pages if your experience is relevant.

The one page resume trope is stupid and meant for new grads or people with less than 5 years of experience

[-]

Classic-Shake6517@reddit

The gap is not as bad as people think. I took 2 years off because I wanted to and that's how I framed it to everyone, seemed to be a non-issue because I was able to explain how I had been keeping up during that time. I'm sure experiences are different for different people and so this won't be true everywhere, but it would have helped me at the time to hear this from someone else.

One of the key things that helped me was tailoring my resume to the position I was applying to. I have over 15 years of experience, so distilling things down to one page for me looked like taking from the "master" (the longer one I used to use) and then using the experience from those roles that is most relevant while taking the less relevant stuff out. Also, writing a good, well thought-out cover letter and not using ChatGPT to do it will help a lot. I can't stress enough to not use ChatGPT for a cover letter, it's better to not include one at all than to use ChatGPT for it IMO.

TL;DR The gap is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be, tailor your resume for the role you are applying, write a cover letter and don't use AI for that part

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Thanks, this is what I needed to hear.

[-]

anonsaltine@reddit

i always hear the rule 1 page per decade of experience

[-]

Ecto-1A@reddit

You need to be checking how your resume is seen by ATS systems. Also need to fine tune your resume to align with the key words in each jib listing.

[-]

fued@reddit

So U have a portfolio/blog/community groups/YouTube channel?

Do you attend any local meetups?

Those are the first two things I look at when hiring Devs, someone who wants to do it

[-]

meemoo_9@reddit

This isn't helpful advice for a senior

[-]

fued@reddit

If they don't have one, they are gonna be going up against others that do.

Dunno how it's not valid

[-]

meemoo_9@reddit

Because it's the sort of thing that gets early career devs through the door but isn't necessary for a senior and honestly if anything might even be an odd look for a senior

[-]

fued@reddit

Disagree entirely, if a senior has none of that I will 100% judge them as not being able to adapt, as it's clear tech is "just a job" for them.

While that is fine during booms, when there aren't many jobs going around you need to mitigate weaknesses.

If all his competition has those things and he doesn't, he doesn't have a chance

[-]

polaroid_kidd@reddit

if a senior has none of that I will 100% judge them as not being able to adapt, as it's clear tech is "just a job" for them.

God forbid someone has hobbies outside of tech after work...

And it is just a job. You think I get up every day super exited to build the 10-billionth AI-powered CRUD app? It'd be something different if I were working on something which made an actual difference, but for the vast majority of jobs, that simply isn't the case and you'd be amiss in assuming that everyone has the same level of hots for boring engineering work.

[-]

fued@reddit

Sure, I agree completely.

But who am I going to interview, the guy with a resume and nothing else apart from a 18 month gap? Or the guy with a resume and a link to all the relevant tech I work with and can prove good code at a glance, and who is a committed member in the local tech scene and has contacts with the vendor?

The guy is looking for advice, and this is valid advice.

People just doesn't want to hear it.

[-]

ManInBlackHat@reddit

From what you have written it sounds like you are inclined to try and interview and hire people that are similar to you. Remember that the applicant is interviewing you and your team as much as you are interviewing them.

[-]

Automatic_Adagio5533@reddit

I think you just don't hear the feedback you are getting. You sound like a very junior engineer.

[-]

fued@reddit

I think there is just an awful lot of salty senior devs here who feel personally attacked for being mediocre lmao

[-]

Automatic_Adagio5533@reddit

I've hired 12 devs in the last 18 months. 8 senior and 4 junior. Did any of them do local meetups, have blogs, or youtub3 channrls? Maybe, I don't know because it wasn't on their resume and I don't care to ask.

It matters to you obviously, but it doesn't matter to most hiring managers.

[-]

fued@reddit

geez if you don't even know those things about your employees that really says a lot...

[-]

BillyBobJangles@reddit

That he's sane, and probably actually hires people?

[-]

mailed@reddit

because its dumb as shit

[-]

fued@reddit

Not gonna disagree there.

Doesn't change the fact that it helps a lot tho

[-]

Schillelagh@reddit

Wait. You think it’s “dumb as shit” yet use it as part as an integral part to judge new hires?!

I personally have time for outside coding, but do attend meetups and talks. I’m not gonna bother fitting it on my resume when I have other major accomplishments at my current job and career overall.

[-]

BillyBobJangles@reddit

I had to double check that I wasn't on r/cscareers when I read that guy's comment. 🤣

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Thank you for saying it so I didn’t have to.

[-]

fued@reddit

If you just wanted to rant you shouldn't have asked for advice.

It's basic, an interview is you selling why you are the best person for the job. Having more things to say that is nothing but helpful.

I get that doing those things shouldn't be required, but obviously whatever else you are doing isn't working.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

When I hire devs, I look for someone with emotional intelligence, who demonstrates a willingness to learn and can accept constructive criticism.

[-]

fued@reddit

Of course, that's very obvious.

So when you have 100 resumes how do you filter them? Just bin half? Or skim and look for standouts?

[-]

meemoo_9@reddit

Filter to qualified candidates, filter to best candidates, then if there's still too many yeah, look for standouts. But I'm not looking for arbitrary personal time engagement metrics because that's an unreasonably thing to look for when someone's proven themselves in their career already

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

You ever ask them to beg?

[-]

sleeksubaru@reddit

Not saying they're wrong but I hate this "must be shorter" thing about Résumés. Sometimes it's just not possible.

I got comfortable with my 2 pages and said fuck it.

[-]

gomihako_@reddit

Try AB testing it. Polish up multiple versions of your resume. Tailor them to the job description. It can't hurt.

[-]

tittywagon@reddit

I have been more than one page for years. Never hurt me.

[-]

skysetter@reddit

If you have the 6 page resume, the verbose one, create a project and keep it in context with AI on ChatGpT or Claude. Then use the job rec to filter but NOT CHANGE and content on the verbose resume, down to a single page, using the most relevant content from your career. Custom resume for every listing based on your career and still one page, curated for the rec. Track each version you send then be ready to speak to your one off resume for X company.

[-]

SurveyAmbitious8701@reddit

Did you ever submit the 6 page resume to a job application?

[-]

MrMichaelJames@reddit

6 is too long but 1 is too short for 25 years. Mine was 3 pages for 25 years.

[-]

Amerella@reddit

Not necessarily. He/she could be a victim of age discrimination! Companies are really cheaping out right now and they aren't wanting to pay what 25 years of experience is worth! They'd rather hire some cheap, desperate, relatively young and less experienced person that they can underpay and exploit.

[-]

forgottenHedgehog@reddit

The OP also mentioned they have never worked FTE jobs, they hate "being owner", they are moving across ocean in 6 months, has no network.

While age discrimination might be a thing, there are A LOT MORE factors the OP has been in full control of that seem off.

[-]

SituationSoap@reddit

The OP also mentioned they have never worked FTE jobs, they hate "being owned", they are moving across ocean in 6 months, have no network.

Haha, holy shit. Every time there's a thread like this, we always miss out on the key factors until the comments.

[-]

smacznyserek@reddit

lmao

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

They really truly buried the lead here! It should have more upvotes.

[-]

robby_arctor@reddit

For anyone else that had to do Google it, FTE seems to mean full time equivalent

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

OP has so called "25YOE" while never holding down a full time job??? wtf...

[-]

Lonsdale1086@reddit

Full time employment.

[-]

Amerella@reddit

Interesting. Yeah I missed that part.

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

At small companies? Maybe…

But big tech, F500 and big tech adjacent are only hiring seniors right now. They also have extreme salary structure. (Pay bands etc…) So no, that’s not it. It’s the resume.

[-]

wild-hectare@reddit

I never list more than 10 years experience on my resume & or linkedin...don't show your age

fyi ..I have 35 yrs experience

[-]

unskilledplay@reddit

Yes, but also no.

Economic downturns are musical chairs and agism is a thing. 50 is pushing it for an IC even when there were more jobs than candidates.

Take away a few chairs and most 50 Y.O. ICs will be shut out of the industry.

In my experience, older ICs tend to spend long periods of their careers with specific frameworks and systems. A lot of those have collapsed in recent years. Did he work with content management tech for marketing teams? That's dead now. CRUD apps? Dead. In-house eCommerce? Dead.

[-]

brikky@reddit

At 25 YoE I'd expect OP to be largely relying on their network to get manager/director type roles at least.

If they have 25 YoE which is really just 2-3 YoE repeated over and over, it's understandable that they'd have a rough time right now.

[-]

throw-away-doh@reddit

Not likely. There is massive agism in the programming career.

At 50+ you are considered over the hill. People think you will not be as sharp as you were when young, they will think you do know the latest tech stacks and they will think you are too expensive.

For most programmers this is a 20-25 year career.

[-]

Personal-Status-3666@reddit

People now just put your resume into Chatgdp for analysis.

Chategdp says +10years carrier should have more than one page.

Welcome to the new world.

[-]

Remarkable_Cow_5949@reddit

Sure, it is easier to blame the OP than acknowledge that the demand dropped to 20% meanwhile the supply went to 500%, so it is 25x harder than few years before, when OP was younger and also was easier...

[-]

Hylaar@reddit

That is not necessarily true. There is major age discrimination in software development.

[-]

Dodie324@reddit

It’s called ageism

[-]

thatbigblackblack@reddit

Classic redditor. Bold to assume that after 25 years it's this yhe cause..

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Ftr, I just took the Princeton algorithms course and scored over the 90th percentile for every assignment, without AI help or googling any answers. There’s has to be a place for me somewhere.

[-]

Low-Weekend6865@reddit

Resume. Let's see it

[-]

GreedyCricket8285@reddit

51 years old here as well. I rarely ever put more than 10 years exp on my resume, especially when trying to land senior roles. Ageism is real.

[-]

Icy-Reward2440@reddit

Don't they find out that you have more experience than what you stated and reject for being overqualified.

I'm 25, with 2 YOE in SWE but I'm worried about Ageism from now lol.

[-]

GreedyCricket8285@reddit

It's never been a problem. I've landed multiple jobs in my 40s using the same resume and it never came up during interviews.

When actively looking for work, I also shave my beard (it's completely white). Reason for that is many work acquaintances get comfortable with me and will call me names like Old Man, Santa Claus, etc. It may not be conscious but hiring managers have a bias against older devs more often than not.

[-]

Party-Lingonberry592@reddit

40 is not old, by the way...

[-]

GreedyCricket8285@reddit

40 is when age discrimination protections start in the US.

https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination

[-]

yetiflask@reddit

Never really comes up, I also trim my resume. Nobody really asks if you have another 10 years of experience you didn't put on your CV.

[-]

lafigatatia@reddit

How do you do that? Do you replace dates with the number of years?

[-]

GreedyCricket8285@reddit

For most applications I don't include any job prior to about 10 years ago. For me it's actually ~2012, but that's because it's a nice jumping off period to my current tech stack. I do not voluntarily include college graduation dates or attendance range either.

I have a separate resume with my entire history dating back to the late 90s but no one ever cares about that.

[-]

9smolsnek@reddit

want to bump this and remove your graduation year or anything that dates you. Also emphasize the more cutting edge of your stack in what you have accomplished.

[-]

Party-Lingonberry592@reddit

Contract work is awesome if you can afford to do it. I'm working part time now (in my 50's) teaching CS fundamentals, giving mock interviews, and coaching engineering managers / engineering leaders so they can do well in interviews. The company I work for has a comprehensive curriculum and can help with getting your resume noticed. If you're interested in that, let me know.

You can also try headhunters. They can be good at placing people in appropriate positions.

[-]

Glamorous_Phys_6843@reddit

Do you have a cover letter also? Personalized to each company? I was out of work two years ago and took Google analytics cert... Not suggesting you do that, but they also did resume prep, cover letter prep and interview prep.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I want a contract. Not FTE.

[-]

Aggravating-Nail-194@reddit

Age, long pages cv, being contractor for long time, that doesn’t mean nothing for why they are not picking you in interviews.. honestly, I guess you may have been outdated with latest techs, project managements, market… I can be wrong, of course. Please excuse me. I’d suggest, to add some minor projects that show your skills in github, explore devops, cloud architecture. Go deep in IA assistants for development like copilot, claude code, the list goes on… Plan and stick to your plan, little steps everyday, i bet that in a couple of months you’ll do just fine.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Thanks, but no thanks.

[-]

HMS-Fizz@reddit

Maybe flex into some C#/.NET roles. I've seen your techstack is mainly java.

[-]

def84@reddit

If you have been without a job for a longer period of time. I would guess employers look at this more than anything else. Why? No one wants to hire you? Then why should we? Etc...

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Are you as smart as your command of the English language suggests? Not everyone wants to spend their life working all the time. That’s a horrible way to live life.

[-]

def84@reddit

That was not my point. But I do agree with you that you should not work all the time, but the reality is... most people do. They don't have year-long gaps. If I was an employer and I saw someone applying for a job and this person has been without a job for a few years I would, quite naturally wonder why that is. And then I would ask myself, why should I go through the trouble of even interviewing this person when I could just talk to someone who has been working without unexplained gaps?

Sorry if my English is not perfect, its not my native language.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

regardless of your english, your reasoning is poor. i would not want to work with someone who thinks the way you do.

[-]

Remarkable_Log_1949@reddit

Did you upskill in jquery v3 because thats the latest they are using now

[-]

RecognitionDry6728@reddit

I'm curious where you are applying and what roles you are applying to.

I've moved around a bit and something I've realized is that some locations are just more competitive than others. And obviously some positions are more competitive than others. At a certain point, if it really does get bad enough, you may have to consider relocating and/or taking offers below what you would normally want.

[-]

pavilionaire2022@reddit

Is your tech stack obsolete?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Java, JavaScript (front and back), SQL, Docker, Python, AWS, D3.js. I am an information sponge, too. I like knowing technologies inside and out.

[-]

EquationTAKEN@reddit

I am an information sponge, too.

Honestly 95% of what I'm looking for when recruiting. Because I don't care if you already have Docker, Kubernetes and AWS on your resume. That, I can teach you.

I just need to know that over time, I can hand it over to you. But I have no idea how to test for it within the confines of a reasonable interviewing process.

[-]

TheTigersAreNotReal@reddit

What could a developer do to help make this stand out? I have a portfolio site and I’ve been thinking of creating a blog page on it so I can post about what I’m currently learning. Would this help?

[-]

EquationTAKEN@reddit

That's a good question, and I'm not really sure.

Having built an application with X is one thing, but what makes a senior stand out is the interview process in which you can tell about why you chose X - and more importantly, why you didn't choose Y. Or how you scaled X (vertically or horizontally) to deal with an increase in users or increase in data flow. How you switched out one messaging system for another, and why.

If your CV indicates that you and I can talk about architectural decisions like that, you're standing out from the rest. But what that looks like, I don't really know, because everyone has "experience with X, Y, Z", and then I have to guess.

[-]

TurboBerries@reddit

Location? Or willing to relocate?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Austin, TX. I am relocating to Italy within the next 6 months. I might be barking up the wrong tree, I should be building a consulting business.

[-]

templar4522@reddit

Are you looking for remote jobs? Cause Italy has a terrible job market, even for software devs.

And most companies won't hire people who can't speak Italian.

You have an extremely limited pool of opportunities if you are looking to work locally.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yes, remote jobs.

[-]

SwitchOrganic@reddit

If this is what you're after it makes more sense why you can't land a job. Remote to the US from overseas is almost impossible without some kind of preexisting arrangement or highly sought after skill set.

I only know one person who has ever set up that kind of arrangement and they had over 25 years of experience with over 15 of those working at the same company.

[-]

dweezil22@reddit

Yeah this is a wild, borderline malicious omission by OP (who still has "full stack dev us" in their flair). Going to give a bunch of US based devs heartburn for no reason.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I’m only looking at contract jobs.

[-]

rexspook@reddit

Leaving this off from the original post feels intentional. I think you know this why you’re having trouble.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

It wasn’t intentional. You sound paranoid.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Italy only has 300 murders a year, and their political situation is stable. No political violence, unlike the US.

[-]

templar4522@reddit

Absolutely, but when it comes to job opportunities, other European countries are better. In any case enjoy Italy... despite everything, it's a good place to live in.

[-]

acid2do@reddit

I am relocating to Italy within the next 6 months.

This may be it, no? You are relocating across the Atlantic while trying to land a job. That raises many questions, timezone differences, etc.

[-]

forgottenHedgehog@reddit

The OP has been leaving off so many important think that I think at this point it has to be trolling.

[-]

harbinger_of_dongs@reddit

Agreed, this seems very off

[-]

arthoer@reddit

Start a commercial marketing production company. Have some sales people bring in some jobs. If you work in Italy then it should be no problem as their work ethics are a lot slower paced and less critical, so you should be successful. However, don't expect a US wage of a gazillion dollars. It will more likely be between 40-80k euro. Which is a lot and fine. You might not think it is, but you will notice when you live here in Europe. Just driving an old Piaggio scooter instead of a f150 already helps.

[-]

vac2672@reddit

No one cares about JavaScript, that is assumed. You need some framework mastery. React, angular, .net etc. saying you know sql as your 3rd skill would make me skip your res. Saying you’re a Java developer got you jobs 10-15yrs ago, now it’s about framework expertise as well. You’re up against overseas workforce who love to list every technology on their resume as well. You might want to look into a professional resume writer.

[-]

never_enough_silos@reddit

You should get some kind of interest with SQL, Docker, Python, and AWS. I'm still learning Python and I'm finding it's causing me to lose interviews at certain places not having experience in it. I actually have 15 years of experience but I put in my resume that I have 10 years because I'm worried about ageism. I'm in my early 40s and am struggling to get interviews. So far the most traction I've got is through recruiters.

[-]

pavilionaire2022@reddit

LGTM

[-]

OddWriter7199@reddit

Robert Half, Teksystems. Two outfits that set up contract jobs for IT.

[-]

Nearby-Middle-8991@reddit

Honestly, networking. With gen ai, each posting gets flooded with "decent " applications, that might be real or not, and weeding those out is hit or miss.

Having someone picking your resume out of that mess has been the best way of getting interviews in my recent experience

[-]

Beginning-Comedian-2@reddit

Don't know if it will help, but I'm 49 and here are the things I did to land a job this year:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YiRdeAXFpFSMU2zfivMaQMj_IVk-wgH499aQV7e853I/edit?usp=sharing

[-]

kingkool68@reddit

Good guide. A lot of similar things I did when I was job searching. I made a simple job finder tool to find job postings via Google https://job-finder.russellheimlich.com/ (it's written in basic PHP)

[-]

neo_digital_79@reddit

Another input.

Op I see lots of people mentioning resume. So paste the resume link here and get the honest criticism. You can remove your name and personal information.

[-]

neo_digital_79@reddit

Question

How did you manage financially What is your skills set Are you putting your 25 yrs . Did you doubt ageism based rejected. And made your experience as 10 yrs

New skills . Did you try to fake and learn and put in your resume.

Trust me you are not alone. There is awhole wave of 50yrs age work force facing similar issues

[-]

revrenlove@reddit

Similar boat (15 YOE, mostly contacting/hired gun). I'm currently working at 7-Eleven and barbacking on the weekends.

I've talked to a couple of recruiters that have flat out told me their clients won't how anybody with a contract on their resume.

Plus, all the contacting gigs are getting off-shored... Plus, the expired tax incentives for R&D are no longer in effect... Plus all the layoffs...

At least I can afford beer and reefer to keep my sanity somewhat in tact.

[-]

jrdeveloper1@reddit

what was it like applying to 7-Eleven ? and did you use your software resume ?

[-]

ButterPotatoHead@reddit

clients won't hire anybody with a contract on their resume.

What does that mean? A contract?

[-]

revrenlove@reddit

Sometimes companies will have a project going on that only takes six months, so instead of hiring a full time person in perpetuity, they just hire someone (typically through a firm) on an hourly rate for a set amount of time.

For example, one contact I was on, they didn't have anyone with API integration expertise, and they hired me to basically wire up their point of sale software to allow for ordering through the suppliers API.

It eliminates onboarding costs, and insurance, etc for the company when they just need an auxiliary person for a short term

[-]

ButterPotatoHead@reddit

I know what a contract is, I did 1099 contract work for about 14 years.

But what does it mean that a client won't hire someone without a contract on their resume? Like they have only ever had W2 jobs? Or they are not currently actively on contract?

[-]

revrenlove@reddit

Ohhhh... The recruiter's firm's client... The company that actually needs the work done.

A lot of times companies will outsource their vetting to a headhunter even for perm positions. That's what I was talking about

[-]

aa-b@reddit

Do you know why a client wouldn't hire anybody with a contract on their resume? I mean, I'm sure they have their reasons, but how could the type of agreement somebody previously signed be a problem? I would have thought the technology/company/achievements etc. would be much more important.

[-]

theevilsharpie@reddit

Do you know why a client wouldn't hire anybody with a contract on their resume?

I'm not the parent poster, and I can't imagine outright rejecting a candidate simply because they had a contract role in the past.

However, the last time I was hiring for a candidate, I instructed the recruiter to hold back (or outright drop) candidates where the majority of their professional experience was working for tech contracting agencies. When we've interviewed these types of candidates in the past, their tech expertise was usually hit or miss (tending towards the latter), and they performed universally poorly on feedback regarding culture fit.

[-]

bwmat@reddit

Isn't this just bigotry?

[-]

theevilsharpie@reddit

I have no idea how you got that from my post.

[-]

aa-b@reddit

It's definitely not bigotry, and it's totally reasonable to have noticed a trend. I'm working as a contractor myself (for now), and I've worked with some genuinely terrible contractors. Good ones, too.

I don't feel like anyone ever held it against me in the past, but I almost always stuck to contracts for 2+ years, and the job market used to not suck so badly. Probably time to think about switching.

[-]

curiouscirrus@reddit

What’s the trend?

[-]

aa-b@reddit

People with certain backgrounds having specific problems more often than usual

[-]

QueenAlucia@reddit

Edit: ducking autocarrot

cackling

[-]

Which-Meat-3388@reddit

18 yoe, almost half that contracting until recently. I had a hard time getting interviews like many others, but if sold right contracting isn’t a black eye. More often than not it resonated with recruiters and eng alike.

“After years at a single company I wanted explore different businesses and technical roles, contracting was the best way to do that. Now I have a clear picture of my next 10 years.”

“Contracting gave me the flexibility to spend the early years at home with my newborn. Now that they’re older I cant wait to get back into the office and double down on my career.”

“Even though I was a contractor I was an indispensable part of the company, building X it from the ground up, launched Y, driving the company to Z. I loved my team but when I saw your role I knew it was a better long term fit.”

If you can research or read your interviewer a little you could even tailor your story to be more relatable. A company of 24 year olds don’t want your kid story for example. Talk about how you’ve been part of successfully building multiple companies and how you’ll do it again with them.

Outside of that network is huge. In this market being laser focused on roles you are an easy choice for doesn’t hurt. If you are a small company person with a specialty, finding that again is easier. Any time I strayed outside of my preference and track record it was a waste of everyone’s time. I would’ve done great at any of them, but at the end of the day I know I can’t stand a big soulless company for more than a couple years.

[-]

BirkenstockStrapped@reddit

Number of pages for a resume is a very poor metric.

Can you code?
Can you data model?
Do you write great documentation?
Will you help others?

Other than that - make sure each job has two bullet points, minimum, and one bullet point answers "What value did I provide the company/my team?" and the other bullet point highlights professional growth by answering the question, "What value did I provide myself?"

Once you get this big picture right, then sprinkle in technology buzzwords that demonstrates where your competencies were.

Finally, consider startups. Major cities have meetup.com events. Even if you're not that social, everyone there is looking for a cheap engineer willing to take risks for asymmetric upside. 2% equity is the right startup can be tremendous. Definitely better than Uber, both in straight base comp and risk adjusted returns.

In terms of immediate impact, I recommend having a 30/60/90 day plan for your first job in 18 months. Why not do more than land the job... crush it?

[-]

DonaldStuck@reddit

Please don't take this the wrong way and bear with me: in those 25 years you should have built a network of people and businesses who you can mail, call, message or whatever. It's kind of smelly that you need to use sites as TopTal to get work. There's a huge demand for senior developers with 25 YOE that know way more than just coding. They understand the business, the politics, the stakes, can separate the substance from the crap and so on.

Are you really sure you can't enable your network? Scroll to your contacts, think about the people you met in the last 25 years. Also look at contacts that aren't primarly work related. Think a little outside the box and maybe focus more on consulting roles instead of coding roles?

Hope you find something!

[-]

brikky@reddit

If OP has only been doing churn contract gigs they would not

understand the business, the politics, the stakes, can separate the substance from the crap and so on.

This is probably the reason they're not getting interest.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I am not great at networking, but I have been reaching out to folks in my network and nobody has anything leads.

What’s wrong with TopTal? I’ve never actually used them before, that was out of desperation. People make great money with them.

I am looking for consulting gigs. I am best at coming in and fixing stacks that have run off the rails, identifying anti-patterns quickly, building development pipelines, optimizing systems and getting them running smoothly. I am not great at pitching myself, however.

[-]

ramrajv@reddit

I and many others i know have open positions and constantly get pinged by ex colleagues and we have to play the dance about not knowing any openings when it's not true. Its because we have zero interest working with them again.

Market is not that bad. Theres still demand for engineers. Its just that your network is useless if your reputation is bad.

[-]

aa-b@reddit

Have you tried sort of trawling through your previous colleagues' LinkedIn profiles much? It's hard to reconnect with people, but I know some people that branched out into solo contracting after layoffs, and IME people who have done that are often amazingly helpful if you ask them for ideas

[-]

newcolours@reddit

This is absolutely untrue about demand. There are endless ghost jobs that just waste time now and mass importing cheap half skilled devs over the last decade along with outsourcing that has killed demand.

When you do find a job your cv might accidentally get filtered out by ai and if it doesn't you end up in a pile with 400+ unqualified unmatching Indian CVs that use ai to apply in the first hour the job is posted (as a hiring manager the volume gas become disgusting)

Anyone thinking about upvoting Donald's comment should go take a look at subs like /r/recruitinghell - theres a lot of stories like OPs

[-]

ramrajv@reddit

I am desperately looking for good engineers. Many i know are. But the reality is most engineers suck. They especially suck in this AI age when we don't need idiots with an eng degree (or people like OP with zero self awareness) to do useless 2 pointer jira tickets for half a week to write 20 lines of code. You can even see it in this sub, people crapping on AI constantly. If you think AI is crap its because you're crap buddy. Ain't got no time for that.

If you're truly good, every colleague and manager that has worked with you would remember it. You should be able to reach out to them and get referrals immediately. I have my own list and honestly the small good ones list everyone is happy where they are.

[-]

DonaldStuck@reddit

Can't argue with you on this. I should've mentioned that my experience is based on the current situation in Europe/Holland.

[-]

pickledplumber@reddit

I have about 15 yrs of experience and frankly you have a positive experience until you don't anymore. Each employer starts off good and then comes to you leaving or then letting you go. Either way most managers won't say they will hire you again. Why that's even a question is odd to me.

[-]

KhonMan@reddit

25 years of contracting may not give those same skills

[-]

That-Promotion-1456@reddit

you need to be applying for more architectural roles not developer and go for seniority. but your gap since 2023 needs to be filled because that is a red flag.

[-]

FitchKitty@reddit

My advice: 2 page CV/resume. Put a link to your Github profile front and center (if you're not on GitHub, sign up and create 3-5 public repos with whatever interests you). Focus on your achievements and problem solving. You should be applying to Sr Dev positions so focus either on how you led others or how you solved difficult infra/code problems (e.g. response rates were X and after I made changes it's now Y). If you worked on Fortune 100/500 clients, mention them

[-]

bsenftner@reddit

The industry is one of abuse, if you look like you are not gullible, if you look like you have wisdom to say "no" you are now unhirable. The industry wants brillant gullible fools they can push around and make work 60 hour weeks. If you want to continue as an engineer, you need to make your own company, your own revenue streams. Do not look to others for jobs, do not look at the gig economy - that's a trap. You at what value you can create and focus on that, selling that, which probably means you need to learn how to sell yourself and your ideas - resumes are over. Resumes are economic slaves seeking masters.

[-]

ramrajv@reddit

Every engineer that wants to start something on their own should be commended.

But this market is not abusive. If you think that its disrespect to all the folks who work dreadful jobs day in day out and barely make a living. Devs rarely work that hard and when they do they're more often than not rewarded insanely. Go to the bay area and see for yourself. If you've found yourself in an abusive workplace and it doesn't even pay well then you should leave. If you keep finding only those places think about whats going wrong there.

[-]

bsenftner@reddit

How long have you been professionally writing software? I wager in time you'll think like me.

[-]

ramrajv@reddit

Does it matter how long i do it? I've made far more in the decade than j need to in a lifetime.

[-]

bsenftner@reddit

Then why are you working?

[-]

ramrajv@reddit

Because it's fun and id rather have two houses instead of one? Lol

[-]

ianpaschal@reddit

I keep hearing about bad markets but I don’t see that much evidence of it in Europe. This might be kind of a wild idea but have you considered going abroad? The salaries aren’t like in Silicon Valley but they’re better than being unemployed for years.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yes, I am actually moving to Italy. As a native of the USA, I can tell you that it’s jumped the shark. Everyone works all the time, is hyperstressed and spiritually dead.

[-]

Ok_Slide4905@reddit

Market is bad.

Also, 25YOE without going full time is almost always going to be seen as a red flag.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

My last job was full time at a consulting agency, but they laid off a third of their workforce. Honestly, I prefer the contract work anyway, because my skills stay stronger. I’ll take any dev work at this point.

[-]

Ok_Slide4905@reddit

Not trying to be a dick or discourage you but contracting is generally viewed very poorly - it has a low skill tier and extremely limited career advancement. Most talent “graduates” out of contracting fairly quickly — they don’t make a career out of it.

We are seeing a big contraction in the market and external contractors are the first to get cut.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I have preferred contracting for the autonomy and independence. This has been my personal preference as I am not suited for career ladder maneuvering. Over the past several years, I’ve noticed a sharp decline in the quality of contractors, but I’m quite strong. Plenty of people made careers out of contracting before the tech bros and web bootcamp grads invaded.

[-]

false_tautology@reddit

Hiring managers see that desire for independence as a red flag that you will quit as soon as you get bored or feel constrained by the job.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Username tracks, btw

[-]

mamaBiskothu@reddit

Its starting to make sense why you're not getting anything buddy. 25 years and you haven't made a single good contact that'll say "yeah they're good". With this attitude I can see it. Times up for arrogant people who think they're gods gift when they're not. Sorry about that.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

That’s why I prefer contracts.

[-]

false_tautology@reddit

Well then they're right.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

If they’re right, why is so much code written by in house devs broken?

[-]

false_tautology@reddit

Contractors don't write better code than employees. I'd rather the guy going to support the code write it, all things being equal.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

How many YOE do you have?

[-]

false_tautology@reddit

24 years. About to go into EM likely.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

If you’re going into management, it’s in your best interest to perpetuate the myth that employees always write better code than contractors. You have to sacrifice your identity to succeed in those roles.

[-]

Phonomorgue@reddit

To be fair, you have to sacrifice your identity regardless of how you're employed. When's the last time you freely spoke your mind to your employer/client?

Even if you own the company, you're liable for company reputation and legal action. Networking and people pleasing is everything in consultation and contracting. I did it for 12 years.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

It’s not the same thing as lying or misleading because your boss strongly suggests you do. Lying degrades trust and erodes the social fabric. What do you believe is responsible for enshittification? I would rather just be paid for my work and not be complicit.

[-]

Phonomorgue@reddit

I feel like this is just projecting some sort of negative experience in your life. Why do you think all managers lie and mislead to make their boss happy? Mine never have.

Enshittification is just a buzzword that really has nothing to do with the conversation at all. Platforms will always decline in quality as new paradigms arrive, both socially and technologically. That's sort of how it has always worked. There will never be a perfect platform that will stay relevant forever. The real culprit of that comes down to anti competitive practices that large companies employ at a C suite level, not the middle managers or even directors level.

[-]

false_tautology@reddit

I mean, you never have to maintain your code, so how would you know what it's like to stay somewhere? You're in a different world than me, so don't act like you know what it's like to stay in one place for years.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I’ve been working with JavaScript since college, when it was brand new. I don’t meet a lot of devs my age with the same depth of knowledge as I do, as they considered it a “toy language”. I was a digital nomad before they had a name for it and specialized in JS work. As a result, I’ve worked on many, many shitty codebases, written by devs that were long gone and left no documentation. Fancy IDEs that mitigate against bad coding practices are relatively new in the JS domain. A lot of these codebases were developed by Java developers used to IDEs that do much of the heavy lifting.

I did all my own heavy lifting. For years, I used editors that only offered syntax coloring and nothing else. I had to read through and make sense of asynchronous, brittle spaghetti code with no unit tests, because management believed unit testing was a waste of money. Instead, they threw good money after bad, building on fragile systems, only caring if they passed AC.

Thoughtless leadership is why the market is where it is. On the most challenging project of my career, for a Fortune 50 company, my manager told me a high school senior could do what I do, despite not having anyone on staff that could even get the app to run, much less demo to customers.

I am careful to write clean, maintainable code. The trend over the past few years is to just ship as fast as possible and kick the can down the road. It’s untenable. You can tell if a chair is poorly engineered by sitting in it. Poor code isn’t always evident at first, companies are aware of this and have basically made the customer responsible for QA.

There are a lot of shitty contractors who don’t know what a closure is, or how to structure code so that it is easy to unit test. I’m not one of them.

[-]

pagirl@reddit

I’m sympathetic to your point about “just ship it”, yes, quality is being compromised. But I’m also seeing things getting over-engineered early on…meaning a prototype isn’t getting delivered, the customer loses interest, project gets cancelled…and everything is going to be re-written from scratch in a new stack in two years because that stack will look good on someone’s resume. It would be cool to see something really written to LAST.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Ok, but acceding to dysfunctional processes perpetuates them. I’ve watched this happen in real time. That’s what enshittification. What you are describing used to be called racketeering.

[-]

pagirl@reddit

enshittification is loss of quality from choosing shareholder value over customer value: let’s cut this streaming service’s library in half to save licensing costs, etc. Let’s skip quality on this project to make it cheaper to deliver more shareholder value. Those are cases where the project would still be alive, but the company’s EBITDA is less pretty. I’m talking about people deciding to ship so the project still exists. It’s not fraud either: if you say the app will do CRUD, get the prototype to do CRUD. Then optimize later, when you still have a customer. If the project doesn’t fulfill requirements and the team tells the customer it does, then that would be fraud. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a project that fulfills requirements but needs optimization—ship it and get feedback.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Did you use AI to write that because “ — “ emdashes are often a tell.

Here’s an example I worked on a project for the aviation industry where the acceptance criteria was loosely defined. The demo kept on failing in front of the customers embarrassing the product owner. I said that we needed unit tests to mitigate against regressions. Manager said we’ll do this later. Demos kept on falling apart in front of potential customers, embarrassing the product owner, and she’d get pissed. More pressure was applied on me to make sure this didn’t happen. I kept saying we need tests. I didn’t write the code initially I was salvaging a shitty code base. My original manager actually walked off the job and quit because he was so fed up. They begged him to come back too, and he refused.

I eventually asked to see the Definition of Done. The manager didn’t even know it existed. I found it. Rule #1 - no code may be submitted without 80% code coverage. Rule #2 - no code may be submitted without 80% code coverage. They listed it twice. I eventually quit because the project was killing me. They tried replacing me with a very strong FTE dev, - with whom I spent 3 weeks doing knowledge transfer - but even he couldn’t get it together and they eventually cancelled the project. Within a year, everyone I’d worked with was gone (except the manager, he’s a lifer).

That’s the kind of shit I’m talking about. It totally didn’t have to be that way. I’m not a perfectionist, but i know that brittle code is fertile soil for regressions, and writing tests can mitigate against that.

[-]

SwitchOrganic@reddit

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What does the hiring manager being "right" about quitting when you get bored or feel constrained have to do with the code quality of in-house devs.

Can you elaborate?

[-]

Ok_Slide4905@reddit

Not gonna argue with you. You’ve made your choices. Most skilled engineers at 25 YOE end up in a very different place.

At 25 years, you should have a deep roster of clients. Likely enough to start your own independent consultancy.

[-]

muntaxitome@reddit

At 25 years, you should have a deep roster of clients.

Why so judgemental. It worked great for him for 25 years. This is a market downturn that is hitting all sort of people. You could be an ex-FAANG employee in 20s or 30s with years of experience and still not be getting any jobs in this job market.

It's like telling that ex-FAANG employee 'well you should have your own startup now at YCombinator'. Well that ex-FAANG employee doesn't, he also does not have a time-machine and when he started working at FAANG everyone was fine and people told him he was living the dream.

[-]

coworker@reddit

The judgement is because job hoppers love to spout the benefits of their lack of commitment but never acknowledge these possible consequences. OP is directly responsible for the situation he is in. He took a 25 year gamble and lost

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I believe you mistake institutional validation for value.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I thought you weren’t trying to discourage me. I am a contractor, I sign non-compete agreements.

[-]

KhonMan@reddit

After 25 years of contract work, do you have enough leads to just reach out to clients to be a consultant directly?

[-]

fued@reddit

Depends on the country, in a lot of places it's the opposite

[-]

lookitskris@reddit

UK it is definitely the opposite, but the market is very bad overall in both perm and contract worlds

[-]

Ok_Slide4905@reddit

OP is from the US

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

That’s very discouraging, btw.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Not if I prefer contract work. I’ve had FTE before. I don’t like being owned.

[-]

its_jsec@reddit

Then driving for Uber should be perfect for you!

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Do you get satisfaction giving up your hopes and dreams for someone else’s?

[-]

its_jsec@reddit

My hopes and dreams have nothing to do with who I work for. They just pay my bills.

[-]

Dymatizeee@reddit

Be your own boss king😂

[-]

SurveyAmbitious8701@reddit

You’re not in a shot calling position

[-]

i-think-about-beans@reddit

Interesting, most people have the opposite issue when searching for jobs (refusing contract jobs)

[-]

IMovedYourCheese@reddit

Then why are you applying for jobs?

[-]

Xsiah@reddit

What does that even mean

[-]

OkTone2K@reddit

This is your issue.

[-]

BadJavaProgrammer@reddit

I wouldn’t take the Toptal response too badly. I was at the last round with Toptal in 2020, but I pulled out due to another offer. I applied again in recent years and also got waitlisted. I think its just there are so many applicants out there

[-]

kirmizikopek@reddit

Create your own super app and publish it in the app store while doing Uber part time?

[-]

bliceroquququq@reddit

Same age as you, exactly same situation. I’ve constantly kept up with “the next new thing” so plenty of marketable skills, but whereas I’d get peppered with recruiter calls even 5 years ago, now crickets.

Ageism is a very real thing. Cut the first 5-10 years of your professional experience off your resume, and remove the date you graduated college.

Also make sure you have a version of resume that minimizes or excludes any “legacy” technology, unless you’re pursuing something that explicitly would benefit from it.

[-]

oceanblake@reddit

good points on resume

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

It's not ageism, it's because they've never had a normal FT salaried job, and they're focusing only on remote contract jobs, while also planning on moving across the Atlantic in a few months time.

[-]

oceanblake@reddit

One way to not be 50y old on resume and just a senior dev drop graduation date and just list you university and degree
For everything before 2010 just write .. various technical roles with no dates or details of older jobs.

[-]

Informal_Pace9237@reddit

Most managers are scared when they see 25 yoe. I cut down mine to 10 years just to get into the door....

[-]

nekomata_58@reddit

ive heard the market is just absolute crap at the moment

[-]

wont_stop_eating_ass@reddit

Someone of your caliber should just build your own product and make your own job(s)

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Amen! Your next plate of ass is on me.

[-]

wont_stop_eating_ass@reddit

Godspeed sir

[-]

mailed@reddit

it's likely ageism. I'm sorry.

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

It's not ageism, it's because they've never had a normal FT salaried job, and they're focusing only on remote contract jobs, while also planning on moving across the Atlantic in a few months time.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I’ve worked with plenty of devs older than me. My aunt was a cobol contractor in the banking industry until she retired at 60, and her skillset was limited. Coding favors crystalized intelligence, which grows with age and experience.

Anyway, I only go back 12 years on my resume, nobody can tell my age.

[-]

menckenjr@reddit

I only go back 12 years on my resume, nobody can tell my age.

Yep. Also, figure out what job you want and tailor your resume for it.

[-]

DonaldStuck@reddit

What stack did you develop in during the last few years?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Java, Node, React, Angular, AWS

[-]

DonaldStuck@reddit

Seems to me as a very relevant stack. On what basis have you been rejected?

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

On what basis have you been rejected?

It's because they've never had a normal FT salaried job, and they're focusing only on remote contract jobs, while also planning on moving across the Atlantic in a few months time.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

When I get feedback, its because of the gap since my last job or because I look like a flight risk from so much contract work. TopTal didn’t flat out reject me, they waitlisted me. I’m told they reject applications all the time, that tells me they must be inundated with people with my skills.

[-]

Northbank75@reddit

You are a flight risk, somewhere else I this thread you are talking about moving to Italy within six months.

[-]

Per_Aspera_Ad_Astra@reddit

as if he puts this on his resume? recruiters won't know this..

[-]

MHIREOFFICIAL@reddit

Honestly man your age might be working against you slightly. If you have 17 jobs on your resume spanning two decades, maybe just include some from the last decade.

[-]

MathmoKiwi@reddit

It's not ageism, it's because they've never had a normal FT salaried job, and they're focusing only on remote contract jobs, while also planning on moving across the Atlantic in a few months time.

[-]

No_Adhesiveness_9323@reddit

Lots of sane advice in this thread. Hopefully you land something sooner.

[-]

MathematicianSome289@reddit

You mention nothing helpful about your skills or desired roles

[-]

jepperepper@reddit

25 years of experience is way too much.

You have 10 years of experience, max. Try that.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

This is bad advice. I didn’t get over imposter syndrome until I had ten years of experience. If I have to dumb down my experience, that’s a clear sign I’m selling myself short.

[-]

jepperepper@reddit

but the HR person is seeing 25 YOE and thinking "too old" so you cut it down to 10 and then they think "just the right age" - because the hiring process is inherently ageist - and then you get the interview at least, and THEN you can impress them with your experience that you "left off" the resume.

that's just how HR and ageism works. I'm 57, i know how to get jobs, this is how you do it.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

If I consult, I won’t have to deal with HR.

[-]

YugDIVIT@reddit

try contributing to open source projects
you can find plenty in superhub.ai
u can find from YC open source companies to bounties based, which might lead you to full time job

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

If someone is asking you to work for free for ‘exposure,’ they’re not valuing your time. And if you say yes, neither are you.

[-]

neolace@reddit

I ended up living on the street for 6 months because of your exact issue, I have 21 years of experience

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

How did you get back on your feet?

[-]

neolace@reddit

God

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Did you have substance abuse issues?

[-]

neolace@reddit

Are you a chemist?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

No, but if you have 21 YOE and no addiction issues and found yourself homeless, that scares me.

[-]

neolace@reddit

It’s definitely scary

[-]

bwmat@reddit

God hired you?

[-]

little_breeze@reddit

With that much experience, why not start your own dev shop/consult? I imagine it’s much easier to find clients that need help in your area of expertise. The downside is that it’s probably not stable income while you’re starting it up.

Or you could try finding a fractional CTO role?

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

You’re a 100% right and that is most likely what I will be doing. I am moving to Europe, however, and was hoping to land a short gig to grease my exit.

[-]

little_breeze@reddit

If I were you, I'd just post on LinkedIn and other professional networks that you're available for consulting in . I'm not nearly as experienced as you are, and I occasionally get requests for helping some team that needs advice on managing their microservices mess, or migrating some large legacy database, etc. And if your experience is in some specific domain (e.g. healthcare), I'd specifically post about that.

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

You've aged out. Illegal? Absolutely, but it's the reality of tech culture.

You absolutely cannot put that much history on your resume. Reduce it to 8 years and see if you get more hits. You might do better shooting at much smaller companies or more corporate companies that are used to seeing and working with non-20-year-olds.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

The 80:20 rule means there’s always work for the competent, provided they can find it.

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

I ran into this same problem. It's not a you issue, it's a "pass the hr system" issue

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yeah, fuck that. People need shit done. I was on a project with a consulting company that I could have done myself with a UX designer. Instead, there were literally 20 people on the project. Ridiculous.

[-]

xamott@reddit

Also - if you haven’t already, use this time to do some serious independent projects. Contribute to open source projects (maybe Roo or Cline, that would be timely) and release a good mobile app or two. Use LLMs to generate such ideas, and to write the code quickly. Ppl think a good coder must have good side projects.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Most ppl are stupid, though. You know that’s true. I am a good coder, but I also have other interests. That’s a toxic idea, that a good coder spends all his time coding. The mind needs variety or it calcifies.

[-]

xamott@reddit

I agree! I never did one of those. I was in bands :) Just a suggestion, since you have time off.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I am in a sex cult.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

j/k

[-]

abeuscher@reddit

Same boat. No interview in 2 years and 25 YOE. I am 50. Personally I think I wasn't promoted into management enough times. I consult a little but I am drowning. IRA is almost gone. Living off family. I wish you luck I hope our experience is outside of the norm.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Have you tried freelancing? I have no interest in going into management. I’d rather cut off my balls.

[-]

abeuscher@reddit

I consult. My network was never very tech heavy because frankly I lived my life outside of work. And I moved from CA to MA right after I left my last job so that doesn't help.

It's pretty bad for me, though. Last year I made 15k. I have borrowed a lot. It is from family but still it's embarrassing and shitty.

The best thing I have going for me is I have no SO and no kids, so no one is coming down with me. I imagine that would make it even harder.

Currently I am working on targeting a few specific niche groups with some consulting services. It is not going particularly well. At a certain point a lot of my energy is devoted to just staying optimistic enough to get out of bed and continue to feed myself and exercise. Unemployment is really bad for your physical and mental health. So I keep busy with whatever low cost stuff I can think of. I took up gardening. I am teaching myself keyboard a bit. Whatever keeps the demons at bay.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Unemployment has been great for my physical and mental health, seriously. I am in the best shape of my life, I’ve largely fixed my sleep issues, and I’m happy more often than not. I wasn’t always this way, but I’ve developed healthy coping strategies over the years. My financial health is not great, though. I’ll figure something out eventually. Necessity is the mother of invention.

[-]

abeuscher@reddit

Good for you. I am taking better care of myself than I did, but I struggle with sleep especially. I am learning to grow weed and vegetables and that gets me outside and moving around every day. And I walk a few miles a day through some of the nicest woods ever. Beavers and turtles and herons and whatnot. So I do enjoy my time as best I can, but the crushing reality of having to rely on money from my mother at 50 is just not settling well at all. And she is not rich which makes it shittier. I am hopeful that I can turn one of the segments I am pursuing into some regular work, or that something else hits.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Believe it or not, ChatGPT helped me with my sleep issues nearly overnight after consulting various doctors over years. As someone who used to smoke weed to help sleep, that actually makes the problem worse by disrupting cortisol and other hormonal regulation. I have other issues that affected sleep as well, but the bottom line is, most of what we use to cope with stress makes the problem worse. Exercise is great, but too much of it or the wrong kind causes CNS dysfunction. Learning how to manage stress is my top priority at the moment.

[-]

PsychologicalRole267@reddit

Also learn mainframe tech, always going to be around and your already a dinosaur, should fit right in

[-]

Shnorkylutyun@reddit

All the mainframe jobs are getting outsourced. Current COBOL developers are in India and in Romania.

[-]

PsychologicalRole267@reddit

That’s not true at all. I literally just got off the phone with a company called paraton and accepted a mainframe dev job ….TODAY…

[-]

Shnorkylutyun@reddit

Congratulations for your new job!

[-]

PsychologicalRole267@reddit

Thank you, can’t wait to be in a position where I can help people like this thread.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

“you’re”, not “your”.

[-]

socialist-viking@reddit

I've not had steady work since 2021. I am a little over 50, and I have a ton of experience and an excellent resume. At the beginning of my search, I got about a 50% response rate to my resume and then did all the interviews and got ghosted. Today I get about a zero percent response rate to the same resume. First off, I am 100% certain I am too old to be considered because the tech world is moronically obsessed with youth over experience. Secondly, something has changed in the last 4 years. I don't know what it is, but I'm not figuring it out and it's troubling. AI? Ghost jobs? I don't know.

It is probably time for all of us old people to change industries.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I think at our age we need to level up and play daddy. It’s just a matter of learning a new skill - marketing - which I’ve been balking at. It’s not that we’re too old for the job, we’re too wise and experienced to believe the shit they use to motivate us to work ourselves to death.

[-]

socialist-viking@reddit

Sort of. I've always been tech lead / chief architect or CEO. Those jobs are admittedly hard to get from the outside. Getting the in on corporate contract work is VERY difficult without a hookup. My strategy is to go after state/local government contracting. Win a bid there and you're set. I NEARLY won a bid for a job with a state HHS, but then Trump happened and it got yanked. :(

[-]

xamott@reddit

Don’t drive Uber, Cybercab is about to make that more obsolete than LLMs have done to coders. I wish I could offer you an interview! I’m 51 too and been a swe for 25 years too! Stay strong brutha the opportunity will arise.

[-]

PsychologicalRole267@reddit

Bro I’m on month 4 and just landed a job I’m over qualified for and I had to have contacts at the place put in multiple good words. It’s going to suck for a while until the casuals realize A.I isn’t going to replace solid engineers. It may take a while but that day will come. For now if I were you, I’d subscribe to linkedin’s premium service and start reaching out to companies that have a referral program and mass message engineers there saying you’ll help them get a bonus.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Hard pass.

[-]

UnkleRinkus@reddit

This happened to me when I was a similar age. I then had an idea for a product, put together a V1, listed that on the resume, and even though it never went anywhere, it reinvigorated things for the next decade.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yeah, that’s what I am leaning towards doing, especially with AI opening up avenues for new products.

[-]

Agreeable_Donut5925@reddit

We’re in the beginning phase of a recession, so unfortunately you should do anything to get money flowing again.

[-]

newcolours@reddit

Its been this way for about 5 years, hard to hall it the beginning

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Beginning? My last company began laying off people over 2 years ago.

[-]

Agreeable_Donut5925@reddit

Valid point

[-]

08148694@reddit

Wish people would stop using YOE as a useful metric metric for skills, value and impact

I’d take a person with a couple of years of data intensive, high stakes, high scale years in FAANG or similar over someone with 40 years experience building CRUD servers in some generic company

[-]

PsychologicalRole267@reddit

I guess there’s a reason why you’re not in a position to hire… that same FAANG engineer is going to scoff at you when you don’t have 250k and stock options for them. So yeah 40 years at a generic company might be just what your needs align with. Not every company is a tech shop, some need basic automation and services programmed. 🤷‍♂️

[-]

Mallacoda@reddit

One idea that I've seen done very well with the candidates I've interviewed is by treating "contracting" as a single job, rather than listing it as multiple short-term entries that makes you look like a flight risk.

Instead, put Contracting as the job, list the key things you were doing, and the toral length of time you were doing it. There is little need to mention all the companies along the way. This makes you look a lot less of a flight risk.

If they want to know more they can ask about that in the interview, but the "first impression" of seeing the CV can be vastly better.

And as for the break in the CV, don't leave it as a gap for the other person to think the worst. Instead, add an entry, like a job, to make it look intentional and add some words to explain why it was beneficial for you.

[-]

eyoung93@reddit

The one page resume is more non tech work. Hiring managers for devs want to see what experience you have with various technologies. You also want to put relevant experience to the job on top. Also remove anything that would potentially indicate your age. Ageism is rampant in the dev world.

[-]

Visible_Turnover3952@reddit

Put “AI” on your resume as much as is the very edge of becoming unreasonable. Completely lie as well. This is the world they have made for us sir. Good luck.

[-]

flavius-as@reddit

It's 1 page per 8 years of experience. Not 1 page flat.

[-]

sycamorepanda@reddit

What about 9 years, 12 years? Is that still 1 page or 2?

[-]

jjthexer@reddit

Feel free to DM me your resume. I'm 32, no issues finding work so far in this environment. I'd be happy to take a look and give you some advice!

[-]

gopster@reddit

Have you applied to bigger contracting firms like Accenture or Infosys?

[-]

tbueno@reddit

Most of the stack you mentioned in the comments is known by less experienced (and cheaper) professionals. In my bubble, more experienced engineers tend to follow the infrastructure or architectural path in areas like pratform engineering in staff and principal roles. That is a way of using experience as a differential advantage.

Maybe the fact that you worked as contractor for long time did allow you to go deep in one of the areas I mentioned, but if you have any knowledge or interest on them, I recommend you to emphasize them in your cv.

Remember that you are probably perceived as a expensive option, specially in companies like toptal where they tend to prefer devs earlier in their careers (so they can charge their clients one level above and stay with the margin).

[-]

bonisaur@reddit

You should really pay a recruiter to help you. It’s an investment and maybe a necessity if you cannot even land an interview. They’ll help you navigate the ATS systems so you can at least get pass the automated screener and to a phone screen.

[-]

GlasnostBusters@reddit

If you like contract work, why not open a sole prop and bid on local projects?

I help people find software jobs as a service, you can reach out if you'd like.

I charge whatever your sign on bonus is, up to $5k.

[-]

HoratioWobble@reddit

20 YOE here, I am getting interviews - maybe 1 a week.

But I'm getting either generic rejections, low balled or ridiculous reasons.

Some companies are looking for perfection - but paying close to minimum wage.

[-]

Packeselt@reddit

Total wait list is rejection Sorry bud

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

You sound bitter.

[-]

serpentdrive@reddit

The market [in my area] seems to want over eager people they can pay lower than they have been and still work them hard. There may be assumptions being made about the 12yoe you mentioned being on your resume, as far as pay expectations or character traits surrounding age.

I don't have a solution to offer, just wish you luck.

[-]

thekwoka@reddit

I took that as a bad omen

Well, they are massively impacted. Regardless of your certifications, if they have too many people, why accept more?

[-]

PastaSaladOverdose@reddit

I have 20+ years experience, currently employed, and I'm seeing a similar trend.

I personally believe the political climate is forcing employers to freeze hiring due to the harsh economic situation we're in. Everything is so volatile and unpredictable, no one knows what tomorrow brings.

AI reviewing and denying applications is also a major hurdle, so I went ahead and had ChatGPT re-do my entire resume so it's more consumable for these automated approved/deny systems.

It's a fucking mess.

[-]

leogodin217@reddit

I got my last three jobs from company recruiters reaching out to me. Applying is tough. Hundreds or thousands of others are applying. So many things can auto-filter you out. My best advice is to build a great LinkedIn profile, post some articles (Not clickbait, influencer crap. Real technical articles). Let recruiters knnow you stand out.

One caveat, I am a data engineer, not a full stack dev.

[-]

couchjitsu@reddit

With 25 YOE I have to imagine you know plenty of other developers, QA people, product people, managers, executives that you've worked with over the years. Have they not been able to get you in for interviews either?

[-]

donatj@reddit

The market is just absolutely terrible and flooded with laid off people right now. My company is having major issues and I have started looking around. It's been just over a month and I have not gotten a single call back. 2-3 years ago I had people banging at my door. Now I can't get anyone to even consider me.

[-]

willyridgewood@reddit

20+ yoe here. I have seen a decent amount of posts like yours where the OP says they're a "full stack developer" and I'm starting to think that may be a factor.

It is great to have knowledge of the entire tech stack. However, if a company is looking to fill a backend or a frontend role, you will be up against people with potentially deeper knowledge and experience as a purely frontend or backend engineer.

You may have to have a few variants of your resume, tailored for roles in different areas. frontend vs backend.

I'm not having problems finding work but my resume and experience have been primarily backend or systems engineering and the type of work I get reflects that. I do know a little about angular and a few other frontend frameworks, but I've never written or read anything react.

TLDR: depending on the type of work you're looking for, "full stack" maybe be off putting to companies hiring for specific roles.

[-]

Abadabadon@reddit

Well you haven't specified how you're trying to find a job, so if youre looking for advice I'd start there.

[-]

Extension-Shock-6130@reddit

Bro's been in tech for 25 years, should you be retired by now?

[-]

Breklin76@reddit

You lack empathy, sir. I hope you have the career you deserve.

[-]

ancientweasel@reddit

Have you tried reaching out to people you've worked with?

[-]

IMovedYourCheese@reddit

You haven't shared enough info about your search. What kinds of companies are you applying to? Are you working with a recruiter? Do you have a LinkedIn profile? Have you messaged recrutiers on LinkedIn? Have you leveraged any contacts? Have you gone to recruiting events or local meetups?

25 YOE is great, but the jobs aren't going to float in just because of that. You still need to put yourself out there.

[-]

Iyace@reddit

I have mostly done contract work, and I prefer that. Any ideas? I just need to stay afloat

Are you only applying to contract positions?

[-]

MrMichaelJames@reddit

25 YOE here as well, when I was unemployed it took me 9 months to find something. Very few interviews, got to final round 3 times before an offer. A lot of companies, if I even got to talk to someone, didn’t know what they even wanted. It would go in spurts, months without hearing from anyone, then all of a sudden I would have a few interviews. They would be shit though, extremely low pay, companies not knowing what they were doing, or jobs that were not what the posting was.

Companies want people with experience but they also don’t want to pay for that experience or they treat people with the experience as if they don’t have experience. Sad to see it’s still a shit show.

[-]

karthie_a@reddit

I can relate to you, being a contractor my entire career with over 15 years under my belt. The market is dead for contracts to be frank. Mostly due to uncertainty from my knowledge. I tried my best to get a perm position unfortunately my skills with climbing career ladder is non existential. I can think of starting your own company or services and approach your clients and companies via mail to start with. Try building products and launch them these are to cover your time. Who knows you might hit with your product if you plan and work it right.

[-]

RelativeDisastrous32@reddit

Do you know any recruiters? Perhaps on LinkedIn or in real life? My advice would be to ask if someone can give feedback on what's going wrong

I would imagine there is something specifically putting people off if you're having such consistently bad results.

Another thing to consider - I don't want to phrase this insensitively - but is there anything on your CV that suggests you are either foreign (needs visa sponsorship) or unable to work in office? Those are the two main "filters" right now

[-]

moh_kohn@reddit

Have you tried contacting everyone you've worked with in the past? My last two contracts were people who knew me.

Impression I get is recruiters are drowning in spam.

[-]

muntaxitome@reddit

The market is in a downward correction, that's all there is to it. As for Uber, sadly Uber in most areas has destroyed the profitability of that to the point where it doesn't make sense unless it's a way for you to get out.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I was kidding about Uber. I’m wired only for deep work.

[-]

muntaxitome@reddit

I've talked to a bunch of Uber drivers that went driving taxis after 2008 crisis and loved it. Unfortunately the jobs on the lower end seem completely hollowed out at this point.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I don’t like having to keep my car clean.

[-]

Capaj@reddit

Are you looking for full remote? try applying for a regular in-office role.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

Yeah, I’ve applied for those, too.

[-]

Capaj@reddit

no callbacks there? In that case RIP. The uber driver it is

[-]

Which-World-6533@reddit

I've been out of work since Dec 2023. I've been going through these cycles of looking for work, focusing on other things while I wait for the market to pick up, panic, looking for work, etc.

If you're unemployed and looking for work your job is to look for work until you have found it. "Waiting for the marker" will mean waiting forever.

I've been using ChatGPT to help me and it is driving me bananas with its optimism.

This is most of your problem right here.

[-]

Chemical-Plankton420@reddit (OP)

I believed I was entitled to time off. I was burnt out and my cat died.

[-]

superdietpepsi@reddit

This has to be cap

[-]

sjmittal@reddit

I feel for you. It certainly does not mean your resume is bad. Earlier you would have got or getting job with resume. Market is really very bad right now. There are hardly any open positions for 45 - 55 years old with skills that were in vogue even just 5 years back. So having said that you have few options: 1. Upskill, but given the age not sure how much willing or how easy it would be. 2. Drastically lower your salary expectations. Maybe even by 50% just to get in. Once a company realise the value you bring in it’s not hard to get the salary increased. 3. Be open for part time, contract based work. 4. If you have been working for good 25 years and lived frugally you would have good savings with you. Retire, invest wisely to have some asset based living or just look for work outside software something to make ends meet like driver or delivery. Hope this helps and all the best.