It's the year of Linux... at least for Denmark
Posted by varmass@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 126 comments
Great news for the Linux community. Denmark's Ministry of Digital Affairs will move away from Microsoft services, including Windows and Office 365. Hope more companies will follow. They are also doing it with a caution “If phasing out proves to be too complicated, we can revert back to Microsoft in an instant"
https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/its-the-year-of-linux-at-least-for-denmark-heres-why-the-countrys-government-is-dumping-windows-and-office-365
LouGarret76@reddit
That is millions of tax payers money saved!
DheeradjS@reddit
The licencing is often not that much cheaper, and you have to account for staff re-traning and retooling.
In the long run however, very much a positive.
Landscape4737@reddit
I ran a lot of open source software for decades at a large company, we saved many millions in licensing and staffing costs. We had reduced staffing due to rock solid reliability, and systems that were easier to manage.
iAmHidingHere@reddit
Sounds a bit drastic.
skinnyraf@reddit
It's all about apps though. If a company mostly uses web apps, then retraining can be minimal, especially if they choose a DE using similar concepts as Windows.
Switching to alternative apps would be a challenge though.
iAmHidingHere@reddit
It's a joke on the spelling mistake :)
emprahsFury@reddit
You won't go home until this Free-PA you keep muttering about let's me print my powerpoint!
svxae@reddit
not in the case of denmark. they will actually raise tax rates :)
mok000@reddit
Several years ago, Aarhus University hired a new IT-director that came from a leading position at Microsoft. Until then, the university’s IT infrastructure ran on Linux and was serviced by the Computer Science Department. Mail, web, DNS, everything was Linux based. But the new director changed everything to the Microsoft world.
Zeales@reddit
I have personally touched that "infrastructure" and trust me when I say that the switch is/was a good thing. It was a disaster waiting to happen with decades old software that has never been maintained and no one who knows how it works. Literally half of it was developed by the university students themselves. There has been several "near-misses" of student and employee data leaks.
Also, that's straight up not true.
srekkas@reddit
students wrote it and it worked, when biggest company in the world makes shit, now on bats an eye. Why migrate to MS, just fix that on Linux.
Positive_Sense8671@reddit
Almost all indian govt offices use linux - BOSS Linux - maintained by the government of India's National Informatics Centre.
But the common people still vastly use windows. The real benefit is when the general public starts using Linux.
Moist-Chip3793@reddit
It's our smallest and newest ministry.
They have 77 employees.
Make of it what you will, but it's a fart in the wind, unfortunately.
varmass@reddit (OP)
If it succeeds, others will take confidence from it and follow.
Moist-Chip3793@reddit
It won't, unfortunately.
It will be sabotaged at all levels, Microsoft is one of the biggest lobbyists here.
I wish it was different, but don't get your hopes up! :)
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Is lobbying legal in that country?
West_Ad_9492@reddit
Yes Lobbying is legal in Danmark, but bribing is not allowed.
I doubt that the politicians are going to trust the Microsoft lobbyists. Their leader is basically saying that he will invade (Trump recently attacked the ICC through Microsoft)
It seems that the Danish are following suit from the French, at least according to the meetings in Greenland lately.
The French have been using Linux for almost 20 years in their military. So I think they have a lot of experience with it.
That's just my take as a Dane.
42undead2@reddit
Yea, but they also then approved additional American military bases and American soldiers to operate on Danish soil, so clearly the threat of invasion is not something they care about.
Moist-Chip3793@reddit
Do you know any countries, where it isn't, besides China and North Korea? :)
Indolent_Bard@reddit
IDK, I just assumed that some countries had it illegal. Kind of surprised it's illegal in China.
ilolvu@reddit
It's better to start smaller and iron out the wrinkles that will inevitably crop up.
It's a good pilot project and learning tool.
SouLBusterFr@reddit
As much as I'd like to be positive about that, I mostly agree with Moist-Chip, other country in EU had similar project and it didn't spread. For instance, in France, the French Gendarmerie has its own linux distro and it has been like this for years, yet it didn't really spread to public administration. I get that police has different use case than public instance but It's just that hard to move on
Dugen@reddit
Software is naturally anti-competitive. You need a critical mass to make alternatives viable. Government funded alternatives are a great idea to introduce competition where it is hard for it to appear naturally.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Why do you say software is naturally anti-competitive?
Dugen@reddit
There are a ton of reasons, but mostly it's that all of the cost is in design and none in manufacture. You see very few places where there are big expensive pieces of software with a competitive marketplace. Mostly there are the big commercial guys and free alternatives. The big guys have figured out that if someone is trying to make money in their territory they can simply give away equivalent products to their competitor until their business is worthless and buy them up.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Ah, man that sucks.
Wait, so you're saying that manufacturing is what levels the playing field in things like car startups? If a startup can build a new car, why can't a startup make a new piece of software?
The REAL issue is the lack of compatibility. Any car can drive on the same road, but you can't use the same files with different software.
Dugen@reddit
The playing field is not level anywhere that a huge capital investment is required to enter a market, but it is more level when less of the cost is in design and more is in labor. Take landscaping for example. It's relatively easy to get started and almost all of your cost is labor so profits are low and competition is plentiful.
Compatibility is absolutely a competition barrier. There are a ton of issues in software like that. Designing for lock-in is effortless and unlike with a car where you can freely copy good design elements, software is copyrighted so copying design is illegal. It's also pretty easy to patent to put up more barriers to competition.
If you look at big software right now it's almost all companies that engaged in and continue to engage in horribly anticompetitive practices. Creating free proprietary software may seem customer friendly, but it's almost always to lock competitors out of a market.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
We really need legislation for this.
ilolvu@reddit
I'm neither IT or linux expert (just a mint user) but making a bespoke distro seems excessive.
Maybe the problem has been doing too much or too fast. Perhaps the Danes have cracked it. We'll see.
Moist-Chip3793@reddit
No, we haven't unfortunately.
I wish it wasn't so, but this is at best a negotiation tactic.
We are completely saturated with Microsoft solutions and their lobbyists, I don't believe that's going to change, unless someone goes to jail on corruption charges, but as you can see in the Transparency International reports, we are really really good at hiding that!
ilolvu@reddit
It wouldn't surprise me either if this fell through because of corruption. Ms is really good at that.
SouLBusterFr@reddit
Well I went too quick saying they have their own distro, It's a ubuntu based distro with some tuning called Gendbuntu, going almost from scratch wouldn't be the solution giving the plethora of great project we have out there that could check all the boxes for the Danish gov. Even EUOS recently would be a candidat, should it be supported by both people and govs
No-Bison-5397@reddit
100%
At some point you gotta make the switch but there will need to be progressive proof of concept switches in larger and larger areas.
TRKlausss@reddit
Adoption grows best when a small team accepts something, and it grows from there. If you try to change the whole IT systems of a government, particularly with rather illiterate secretaries and bureaucrats, I guarantee you it will not work.
Moist-Chip3793@reddit
I admire your trust in our politicians! :)
They are really not worth it, trust me.
Denmark is unfortunately a Microsoft country through and through, I know because I have been trying to change that for the last 28 years ...
Zeitcon@reddit
Speaking as someone, who has worked in Danish government IT, I can guarantee you that other departments and agencies will be following their migration closely. Others are also planning or discussing doing the same.
Also: Starting small is not bad at all, because you can better respond to the needs of your users.
LicenseToPost@reddit
Why governments anywhere are using proprietary software is beyond me, at least for non-military applications.
Pramaxis@reddit
Because:
The government is still a bunch of people with jobs. If they don't have the skills to work with Linux you have to teach them.
If you have an old SW that cannot run on Linux you have to hire professionals to make it work or rewrite it entirely.
IT's personal cost extra. Good ones (you need for security and databreach prevention!) costs extra on top. You as an employer are competing with 99% of the "free market™".
The public sector is always under more pressure to cut costs. Increasing the cost by hiring more professionals ahead of time (to ensure a smooth transition) is not something any politician can show-off within the usual 5 years until the next election.
Humans are very bad at thinking exponentially and seeing the return of investment on a delayed gratification (Each € spent on my staff remains in my local economy instead of moving to the US-Coporate. Thus, the export/import in tech dept is reduced long term.)
Last but not least; Big companies have a lot of SaaS contracts where leadership can blame problem XY to [external IT Service here] if shit went down. And deflect journalists with "We bought the service like all others, from market leader.".
If you change something (as a figure of authority) you allways are the single point of friction between EVERY. SINGLE. USER. THAT. HATES. CHANGE.
Public is going to switch, when all others already have and keeping thw status quo is actually the most expensive solution short term. Not one second before that.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
It's EXTREMELY logical to not want your infrastructure owned by a country with a government as volatile as the US right now (and also, digital sovereignty, while it can be used as an argument for protectionism, in general digital sovereignty is a good thing because then you're not beholden to any country's sanctions or whims.)
Pramaxis@reddit
It was logical even before the current set of billionaires got into office. It should have never happened in the first place.
Still the change was made far after the snowden leaks or panama papers and the gchq stuff breached to become public knowledge.
We saw emotional discussion on FOSS software win, more often than not. Look at Vienna or Munich. Both bold at the time but got packpadelt only a few years after.
This is no logical debate as much as I dislike that fact. Short term convenience for the protagonists is the driving factor in my opinion.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Trump recently attacked the ICC through Microsoft. So now a tangible threat has occurred. That's why it's now a logical debate, Microsoft's leader basically threatened to invafe.
AtlanticPortal@reddit
The question is actually why are they using it for military applications! They’d want to use software they have the code. Maybe not open source but they should be the owners.
Noahnoah55@reddit
At least in the US there's a separate govt instance of ms365 and I'm sure they cut a deal to be able to audit any software they need to.
Old_Guess2911@reddit
Ffs. Say you don’t know the game without saying anything.
AtlanticPortal@reddit
So you think that it’s acceptable for Denmark using a fighter heft that’s under the control of a country that explicitly said it’s willing to conquer by force parts of their territory?
nous_serons_libre@reddit
Corruption? There is the proven example of a Romanian minister who was convicted of being corrupt. In France, Microsoft often goes through ministers to propose (impose) agreements.
MatchingTurret@reddit
All tenders must be public and are open to public scrunity. See Public tendering rules
If there was something fishy we would see complaints by the loosing side.
nous_serons_libre@reddit
That's the theory. I heard a p**** minister explain on France Inter that the service provider Microsoft had been chosen for the storage of social security data in the ugap catalog..... Because a call for tenders would have been too long. Najat Vallaud Belkacem, as Minister of National Education, signed an agreement with Microsoft to introduce it into national education. The army took refuge behind defense secrecy so as not to explain how the contract had been awarded. It took numerous requests from parliamentarians to see things more clearly.
In fact, when a minister decides, he sits on the procedure. Furthermore, the procedure makes it possible to force the choice of service providers by correctly choosing the criteria. Oh and I know of an administration that was more than a year late in starting a first messaging project. Clearly the project was written so that Microsoft would complete it. It is said that a dissatisfied competitor had launched a procedure.... And that an amicable settlement with a payment had been concluded....
In short..... There are some fishy things
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Why did you censor prime?
nous_serons_libre@reddit
Sorry, I can't find where I censored prime
dooie82@reddit
It is probably the end users, they are accustomed to Microsoft products. They grow up with Microsoft products at schools and home, Microsoft even has school programs that you can buy Microsoft Software at a massive discount. So when it is not the same at work as at home the start nagging or worse...
snowcountry556@reddit
And the IT people. Most only have qualifications in Microsoft products and services and they'd have to retrain.
dooie82@reddit
Yes because the only thing they have ever seen since childhood is Microsoft stuff. Why bother getting certification for stuff you almost never see in the wild. My boss is not going to pay me for linux certification, he wants azure certifications
jr735@reddit
This is why we shouldn't be allowing proprietary companies to involve themselves in public education to this depth. IBM started it with Selectrics in schools. Well, it probably occurred before that, even. They know if they start vendor lock when they're kids, they have a customer for life.
Now, as for bosses and most computer "users," if you put MS logos and wallpapers on a Linux distribution, they'd simply complain that Windows is different, and have zero capacity for actually figuring out they were on something different altogether.
dooie82@reddit
Dude, Users complain about everything. When i still did helldesk the amount of complaints i got when we migrated terminal servers to a new windows version. Every.Single.Time...
KDE and Gnome have changes almost every release the amount of calls you would get...
Not to mention the workflow change they need to make when forced to grome...
Dugen@reddit
Can you imagine if Windows subtly changed it's UI every few months through mandatory updates how pissed the users would get? Except they already do that and users have gotten used to it. Windows does it for the same reasons Linux distributions do it, IOs does it, Android does it, and as it turns out users can deal with it.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Windows does it on new versions, not every few months. Plus, they DO complain, as seen above.
Dugen@reddit
Windows changes plenty of things without major releases. They throw updates out constantly with little changes here and there and it's annoying but understandable.
jr735@reddit
Yes, people can't adapt. I don't think an average Windows user would know the difference if you installed something with Gnome and told him that's Windows 11, if he never saw it before.
dooie82@reddit
Even if you installed a heavily modified Gnome version that resembles Windows 99.99% they will find some obscure function they use in Windows at home and complain about it.
jr735@reddit
And if Windows switched it, they'd complain anyway. That's a people problem, not a software problem.
nous_serons_libre@reddit
I'm being a bit provocative by highlighting corruption. It obviously has many factors:
* Training. During their studies, students, including those in IT, are inundated with Microsoft products.
* The ecosystem: training companies and service providers obviously support Microsoft products.
* In corporate IT services, choosing Microsoft as a standard solution is not a problem. It's not a problem if the project fails; it's the standard solution. However, making a different choice is a risk. Furthermore, on the IT staff side, having paid for Microsoft certification doesn't make them inclined to promote alternative solutions.
* And finally, the need expressed by users (fed Microsoft products, fueled by Microsoft marketing).
In short. But in a government service, things are a little different. Normally, the goal is budget efficiency and the effectiveness of public demand. Sovereignty can also be a goal.
In France, the army switched to Microsoft software. This was against the advice of a committee of experts who highlighted the risk of data leaks to a foreign power (not always friendly). French social security data is stored on Microsoft servers, against the advice of experts who highlighted the risk of data leaks (...) but this was agreed upon at the highest level. I can also mention the national education system, where the minister at the time reached an agreement introducing Microsoft into schools.
In short, Microsoft does a lot of lobbying at the highest level to promote its products. Sometimes it has gone further: I cited the admitted corruption of a Romanian minister by Microsoft.
And by the way, I remember reading (I can't find the sources) about the guy who organized the migration from Microsoft to Linux for the National Gendarmerie. He said that a condition for the project to succeed was that it not be known at the highest level. Otherwise Microsoft would have lobbied to discontinue it.
gromain@reddit
Because procurement via the private sector is embedded in the inner workings of the government.
When the need to build roads, they don't buy trucks and whatnot, they find a private company that will do it. Same for almost everything.
So for software, it's the same thing. They do a tender, except most open source software is not sold by a company, so it's a daunting task to answer a tender for software procurement if you're not a company. Also lobbying.
svxae@reddit
there is also the issue of vendor lock. i mean i work for a private company and broadcom, aveva and abb are rawdogging us obscenely. the state institution are probably even more vulnerable.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Can you elaborate please?
Big-Afternoon-3422@reddit
Most importantly, why are you actively using a foreign super power proprietary software, especially when this foreign super power has a habit of spying on friends and has this shit called Cloud act?
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Never heard of the cloud act. Sounds bad.
jr735@reddit
Even military doesn't necessarily need proprietary software for everything.
lungben81@reddit
It is even more dangerous to use proprietary software here, especially one from a foreign company.
jr735@reddit
I agree absolutely. How many microprocessors used in the military are made at home?
emprahsFury@reddit
You mean the ones in the American foundries the dod spends billions on maintaining or the ones that were going to be made in the CHIPS Act foundries. Trump cancelling the CHIPS Act is going to be as bad for America as him cancelling the TPP.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
What's the tpp?
imbev@reddit
RISC-V should help in this regard
mikat7@reddit
Just recently read about stuxnet (targeting Iranian nuclear program) and petya (targeting Ukrainian infrastructure) and they both targeted Windows machines, at least to spread initially IIRC. Not saying it couldn’t happen on linux but to me Microsoft doesn’t have the best track record on security.
emprahsFury@reddit
MS has an excellent track record on security. Stuxnet and EternalBlue were both done by the NSA. The fact that we've only ever had one NotPetya event and that was because the NSA was hacked is the epitome of what should be considered a "gOoD TrAcK rEcOrD"
lungben81@reddit
And these even did not come directly from Microsoft / the US government itself (not sure about Stuxnet). Imagine what could be done when including malware directly into MS Windows.
Optimal_Wind1272@reddit
They likely have private access to the source code
Mailstorm@reddit
Military doesn't use proprietary software. It's pretty much a requirement they get access to source code for auditing and verification.
There are plenty of business and governments that have full or partial access to Windows source code.
jr735@reddit
Yes, it does. Windows and the like are still proprietary, even if the developer lets select clients look at the code. That's absolutely a violation of software freedom right there.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
I don't think you know what proprietary software is.
If I'm reviewing programs for the military, and MS gives me access to the complete source code, can I modify it and release it to the public, or release it to the public without modifications? If the answer to any of those are "no" then it's proprietary.
emprahsFury@reddit
The absolute biggest "lesson learned" from the F-35 program was to not let the contractor have proprietary code. Just because the DoD gets to look at it doesnt mean anything.
Flynn58@reddit
Two reasons. One, the customer, public servants and politicians, are not very adept with technology, and frequently just want Windows because it's what they're comfortable and familiar with. Two, Microsoft has lobbyists, because they obviously make a lot of money off contracts providing services to various national and subnational and municipal governments around the globe.
reaper987@reddit
Because AD/EntraID, SharePoint/OneDrive for Business, Intune, live collaboration in Office, Exchange?
emprahsFury@reddit
I can't wait for the legal argument used against Apple to be applied to MS. You can't tell me there isnt a "market" for anyone of those things that MS created and now gates just like Apple gates the App Store.
adobo_cake@reddit
For military applications it seems to make more sense that they should be able to audit the source code.
nicman24@reddit
They do under NDA
dooie82@reddit
There is a government program where countries can audit the windows source code.
starvaldD@reddit
i assume it due to kick backs.
thank_burdell@reddit
it's the old "no one gets fired for buying IBM" thinking.
Oh look at all the stuff bundled with O365 for one simple cost! We'll save money and we can cut our support staff if we sign with Microsoft!
Time passes, Microsoft starts cutting and limiting services, and more money has to be spent. And there was never a good time to cut support staff.
zeanox@reddit
Because it works and has great support, when you need it.
AllanSundry2020@reddit
especially given the rhetoric on Grönland
LookingForTracyTzu@reddit
Support
MonetizedSandwich@reddit
lol this is the 25th anniversary of the first time I heard that.
celibidaque@reddit
Do we know what distribution will Denmark use?
NoleMercy05@reddit
None
daemonpenguin@reddit
Denmark is not switching to Linux. One department to moving from MS-Office to LibreOffice. They are not adopting Linux.
necrophcodr@reddit
Denmark won't be using a singular distribution, that much i can promise you. That isn't the case now, and is incredibly unlikely to make sense.
Some places run RHEL, some use NixOS.
This specific ministry hasn't published the details of this yet, so we'll likely not know until July has passed.
Rawey241000@reddit
Would something like NixOS be an option, since the whole system can be copied from the config file? It'd make the rolling out many systems more straightforward, at least in theory
dooie82@reddit
They will revert just like the others that tried
TheNinthJhana@reddit
Situation is different.
My bet - more to join the move.
And no all moved did not revert back. French gendarmerie is still on Linux after years and years for example.
aeropl3b@reddit
Hopefully. I always joke with people on Windows that if they really want to get work done they should switch to Linux instead of waiting for their system to unfreeze.
Also, first time I have seen GAFA I am used to seeing FAANG.
SouLBusterFr@reddit
I commented above before seeing your comment but as I said, things don't look as promising when you see that the fact that they are on Linux never really made other public instance move in France
TheNinthJhana@reddit
Situation is different.
My bet - more to join the move.
And no all moved did not revert back. French gendarmerie is still on Linux after years and years for example.
phoooooo0@reddit
This is incorrect AFAIK. They are only moving to libreoffice. NOT Linux as a WHOLE.
Expensive_Finger_973@reddit
I hope they succeed, but they aren't the first EU government to decide they don't want to pay the MS tax anymore, spend untold sums and man hours to get out, only to come crawling back to MS once the right bureaucrat wants it.
IngvarListard@reddit
Because of reasons you all probably know, many of government companies in Russia now is switching to linux. Also, one of the biggest bank in Russia is completely switching to Linux now in all directions.
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
Yeah! Right! See also Munich :p
coderguyagb@reddit
That was tried way too early. It's a completely different discussion in 2025.
Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit
It's a joke actually
https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/
coderguyagb@reddit
I never said it wasn't.
nave_samoht@reddit
I wish the Canadian Government would to switch to Linux.
BCBenji1@reddit
"Too much public digital infrastructure is currently tied up with very few foreign suppliers. This makes us vulnerable." That's a very interesting line. What are they saying? They don't trust MS? That's pretty brutal. Maybe they're lying and the real issue is the cost. One thing they're giving up is the ability to sue when things go wrong - I hope that's true?
Historical-Bar-305@reddit
They only move to livre office not Linux.
necrophcodr@reddit
No, they're looking to avoid using Microsoft products altogether, which may well include the OS as well. That'd be the official statement so far anyway.
daemonpenguin@reddit
No, it's not. The Denmark organization has clarified that the reporter misquoted them and they are switching to LibreOffice only, not making any move to Linux.
necrophcodr@reddit
You're right. Well that's a simple matter for them then. If they fail on this, that would say a LOT about the ministry.
gromit1991@reddit
Baby steps.
reddittookmyuser@reddit
Click bait title.
CrackCrackPop@reddit
I wonder what kind of desktop they will utilize. For servers there are really well maintained products like SLES / RHEL
Using those as desktops is not even that far of. Suse provides the rancher for a good management.
SSSD provides a good integration for a centralized ldap.
It just remains to be seen if they can find qualified people that will guide them to a stable setup
necrophcodr@reddit
I doubt they're trying to be as independent of organisations as to avoid companies altogether. This is much more in line with national policies being worked out to avoid dependency on the US and US companies, for security purposes.
Gmoney86@reddit
I think with more and more in browser and SaaS offering available for companies to leverage, it will be easier to move front end user experiences off windows and on to other services.
The only reason to stick proprietary is to have someone else to blame when things break or stop working as expected. If it’s open source then your company needs to figure it out and can’t sue anyone to fix it.
zelkovamoon@reddit
I've switched to Linux on one of my programming PCs and it's going really well. This is in prep to switch everything when win 10 is EOL
DarshanUpadhyay@reddit
Finally, a government choosing freedom and penguins! 🐧
If you're ditching Office 365 and wondering what now? — Collabora Online is a fantastic open source alternative!
Real-time collaboration
Privacy-friendly (no data mining here!)
Excellent MS Office compatibility
Works right in your browser — no install needed
It's basically LibreOffice in the cloud... but cooler 😎
No subscriptions, no "Your OneDrive is full" popups, and 100% open source love ❤️
Go Denmark! Hope more follow the penguin path 🐧🇩🇰
https://www.collaboraonline.com/collabora-online/
xdblip@reddit
Old news
Landscape4737@reddit
Some governments think they are locked in and don’t have the aptitude to sort it out.
Eamonn1987@reddit
Again?
INITMalcanis@reddit
They are at least investigating it.