Driving on a public road is not a right.
You have to earn your license and your conduct with its use proves that you are reasonable to the have the privilege to drive.
Repeatedly endangering the lives of other citizens with reckless driving, excessive speeding, or driving under the influence is entirely fair cause to revoke one's privileges to drive on public roads.
If they want to retain such privilege, they may elect to have this speed limiter installed. Similar to how one may have a breathalyzer installed on their vehicle after repeated DUI-related offenses.
I agree with everything you said, but I just can’t help but feel this solution is poorly thought out. A lot of times going 5-10mph over the limit to match the flow of traffic is the safest way to drive. A car going 10mph under the flow of traffic can make a hazardous speed differential and cause more lane changes, aggressive passing, tailgating, risk of rear-end collision, etc.
Idk, I feel like even a 5mph allowance over the posted limit would go a long ways to avoiding this given how many roads in the US have speed limits under the normal traffic flow.
On most highways, one can reasonably stick to the posted speed limit in the center lane or right lane.
The left lane is designed for passing.
There's also the reality that, while the flow of traffic may be above the posted speed limit on a given stretch of road, each and every one of those drivers is technically breaking the speed limit and could receive a citation.
I hate that my choice is often mutually exclusive between obeying road laws and driving in the safest manner for the conditions. If I adhere to a 55 mph posted limit but traffic is flowing at 65 mph, then I'm a hazard. But if I drive with the flow of traffic I could be ticketed for speeding.
You're absolutely right. The solution is that the speed limits should be raised to match the speed of traffic given the massive advances in cars and tire technology.
> On most highways, one can reasonably stick to the posted speed limit in the center lane or right lane. The left lane is designed for passing.
That’s true a lot of the time, but I feel like I see it pretty often around me where even the rightmost lane is going 5-10 over. This is especially true on some of the 55mph highways near me where there are just two lanes going each direction. Also, I feel like the convicted reckless drivers who will have this limiter will probably not be the best at sticking to the right lane.
> There's also the reality that, while the flow of traffic may be above the posted speed limit on a given stretch of road, each and every one of those drivers is technically breaking the speed limit and could receive a citation.
True, though at least in my area, it’s very rare for anyone to get pulled over for going less than 10mph over the speed limit on the highway. My dad has commuted an hour each way to work every day for the last 40 years and he always sets his cruise control at 74mph (65mph limit). He’s never been pulled over for speeding. Meanwhile my mom who drives way less than him but often gets up to 80mph has gotten like 5 tickets lol.
As long as the highway patrol doesn’t enforce moderate speeding and lets flow of traffic go 5-10 over, then I think being strictly limited to the posted limit has potential for danger.
> he always sets his cruise control at 74mph (65mph limit). He’s never been pulled over for speeding.
I got one for 11 over on an empty highway, not using a cruise control at an intended 9 over. I also got one for 50 downhill in a 35 county road after they lowered the limit from 45. Aggressive enforcement both times, the second allegedly encouraged by the locals who didn't like the amount of traffic on their road.
My experience in 40 plus years of driving, unless you are in a school zone, you aren't getting yanked for anything less that 10% over.
As I have gotten older, I am constantly amazed as to how the car passing me like a bat out of hell doesn't get to the same exit as I any faster than I do, but just had to speed to get there.
Driving is a privilege, not a right, and all of those rights end when they interfere with my rights.
If I had to bet, this won't make it into practice for precisely the reason outlined above. Some constitutional lawyer will try to make their headlines by taking it on, and while I don't know the law that we'll, I suspect the challenge will be victorious.
This is definitely a flavor of overreach that most people would be unhappy about having on the books, regardless of whether it'd ever apply to them.
Certainly, if there is/are a state/s where it has a chance, WA or Or or CA would be the ones. But even there I think most folks would be up in arms against it.
It's no different than mandating a breathalyzer in a car. The alternative to the speed limiter for these assholes is having their license taken away. You people need to get a grip and engage with reality.
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Not it's not lol.
https://www. autoevolution .com/news/how-general-motors-can-remotely-disable-a-stolen-car-224715.html
EDIT: Also, whatever device they're creating is going to be ODBII based. In which case, it's even easier.
OBD II is a read only diagnostic protocol quite separate from the manufacturer’s two way protocols and is completely irrelevant here. Yes GM can perform special functions because it’s built in to the PCM firmware that *they wrote*.
There is no universal CAN command to limit throttle. This would require a custom “tune” for almost every different vehicle out there which would require knowledge of proprietary information, which means manufacturers would have to be on board with this which is unlikely. Maybe a few might. The tuning industry knows well how difficult manufacturers make this and how locked down modules are, often using encryption. Hacking and reverse engineering PCM firmware for every kind of car out there and then using an aftermarket device to inject CAN frames not only is a ridiculous task to try and accomplish, but also subject to a lot of liability.
Another idea might be to use a “pedal commander” type of device that modifies the analog accelerator position signal but that also is a liability risk and could be easily defeated using the cruise control acceleration button (or just removed).
TLDR this is only possible if manufacturers collaborate on this effort. Not all will. People will buy cars from the manufacturers that didn’t.
Oh and another issue. GPS cannot reliably know what road you’re on. It cannot know whether you’re on an elevated highway with a 55mph speed limit or the surface level city street just below with a 25mph limit. This whole idea is stupidity thought up by politicians with no technical understanding.
Mostly read-only.
1. Being from the 90's is irrelevant. So many of our protocols/etc are from the 70's/80's/90's.
2. By ODB-II based I mean that's likely to be the physical port they'll use to hook into CAN.
>There is no universal CAN command to limit throttle.
That's true.
>This would require a custom “tune” for almost every different vehicle out there which would require knowledge of proprietary information, which means manufacturers would have to be on board with this which is unlikely. Maybe a few might. The tuning industry knows well how difficult manufacturers make this and how locked down modules are, often using encryption.
Depends on how serious the govs are about this. If they really mean business I imagine the OEM's will comply.
>Another idea might be to use a “pedal commander” type of device that modifies the analog accelerator position signal but that also is a liability risk and could be easily defeated using the cruise control acceleration button (or just removed).
Yeah at some level they will have to interface with the ECU in order for this to be effective.
>GPS cannot reliably know what road you’re on.
This is also my biggest question. Especially when limits change, limits *hear* highways can be much lower than on a highway, and let's say you're trying to merge but the GPS signal is just a little off.... oof. Solar activity commonly affects this.
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Or it'll just keep getting kicked around lower courts until the lawsuit dies. Same reason none of the AWB lawsuits have ever made it to the Supreme Court. Washington doesn't like cases going to the Supreme Court, because so much of this shit is unconstitutional that it would immediately be ruled against.
Now matter how important it is, information delivered in a distracting way is a distraction from driving. Your logic says we could replace dashboards with Bitching Betty going "sixtysixtyfiftyeightsixtySIXTYONESIXTYONEWARNINGSIXTYONE".
What countries do this? I've only seen it for GCC spec cars, which have an obnoxious 120 km/h alarm... Strange, because they have roads with speed limits higher than that.
It's an EU-wide directive. It's tied to the speed limit sign recognition system so if the car decides that some arbitrary number is the speed limit, the chime will sound every time the speedometer is above said number.
For example, you drive past an ad that has the number 50 on it. The car will now think that exceeding 50 kmh is grounds to play the speed alarm.
I’ve read they want to implement a few things.
One being an audible alert ( oh yeah another chime) and they want the pedal to actually fight you like an ABS activation…so stupid
If they really want it they could just tie it to the GPS and limit the car “God I hope not”. These stupid Nannie’s are a wasted cost and expense.
None of my cars will ever have it as they are all 90s cars
You probably aren't the target demographic for these laws.
Given that you have older vehicles, I assume that you drive reasonably. Ergo, not under the influence and not excessively speeding wherever you go.
There are unreasonable people out there who *do not* care about driving, *do not* care about cars, and more importantly, *do not* care about the safety and well-being of those around them.
These individuals are the target demographic for these laws. The people who are constantly in-and-out of court fighting tickets.
https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge/media-and-press/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across
It's not that difficult to find.
Oh, there are devices that limit your speed and ticket you on every new vehicle in the EU? Or do they just provide a warning.
The original claim, and what this entire comment chain is about, is that there are devices in Europe that stop your vehicle from going above the speed limit.
An audio warning for speeding is not the same as an automatic ticket or forcing your vehicle to slow down.
This is for people with multiple reckless driving convictions. Ultimately, being able to drive in public roads is a privilege not a default right.
Do you also think requiring criminals to wear a location-tracking ankle bracelet is an unjust overreach?
> This is for people with multiple reckless driving convictions
It's also completely *voluntary*. If you don't want one in your vehicle, you can also just choose to have your license suspended instead.
You know what makes it voluntary?
The part where you have to get convicted of reckless driving... multiple times... instead of just driving like a responsible citizen. That's a choice you made to arrive at this point.
Unfortunately, nobody on Reddit actually reads the articles. We're definitely the exception lol.
But there is a bit of a slippery slope since the California version of the bill wanted to include it into all cars by default. I think the step from having it in violator cars to all cars is a good distinction and one we shouldn't cross. Thankfully that bill was vetoed.
source?
I see 20 mph over speed limit or over 85 mph.
https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-862/#:~:text=A%20person%20is%20guilty%20of,the%20applicable%20maximum%20speed%20limit.
The law was recently updated to 85mph. Virginia also doesn't have any roads above 70 mph speed limit according to the Virginia DOT.
So the previous poster's getting a reckless driving of 81 in a 75 wouldn't have happened anyways.
Now the threshold is 85 in a 70, that seems reasonable to me honestly. I don't think the flow of traffic would ever be more than 15 above the speed limit.
It’s for people who get multiple reckless driving offenses. That’s criminal in VA. This is an alternative to revoking their license and/or throwing them in jail.
Did you even read the quote the OP posted? This is for repeat dangerous drivers who don’t want to lose their licence. It’s like a breathalyzer for impaired drivers.
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lol, who's going to fight it?
"You're honor, I was given the option of having a speed limiter installed in my car. I demand to have my license revoked instead!"
Well they allow those devices that you have to blow into to check your alcohol level before it allows you to start the car. Not sure how this would really be any different.
I'm far from one of these sovereign citizen types, but, "a privilege not a right"? You mean to use the roads we get taxed for, in the car I bought and pay taxes for, with the license I paid to have?
I'd argue it's neither a privilege or a right. Repercussions for driving outside the rules of having that license already exist. But to suggest the City/County/State be able to hinder and limit the ability of my property is absolutely ridiculous. This already IS a slipper slope. Just more people justifying and rationalizing why it's ok for the Government to control my property under the guise of safety. That may be how it starts, but perhaps we should look beyond that and consider where this could end.
>But to suggest the City/County/State be able to hinder and limit the ability of my property is absolutely ridiculous.
This is no different than an interlock on a car for multi repeat DUI offender or a boot on someone with excessive unpaid parking tickets. Don't get caught driving recklessly on public roads so many times that your options are either this or a license suspension/revocation
Yeah exactly the city/county/state is just giving you an option for an interlock or to loose your license altogether. And just because you pay taxes towards roads doesn't mean you should have the right to drive recklessly.
The fact someone was exceeding the posted speed limit, does not mean they were driving recklessly. Some people have the ability to drive and handle a car at high speeds quite well. However, others do not. They indeed should have one of these devices for that reason.
Genius take - let's deal with the noted danger of speed incompatibility by doubling the speed, quadrupling the kinetic energy involved, octupling the likely speed deltas, drastically extending stopping distances and increasing reaction times, all while forgetting that most people's cars are electronically limited to something in the region of 100.
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Not to mention the rest of us pay for the roads too and would prefer not to be at risk using them.
People *want* enforcement of laws. If it wasn't worth it we wouldn't engage in polite society.
I agree. All the people kicking and screaming about interlocks and speed cameras (etc.) are the people who put us all at risk. Now, yeah, speed cameras have false positives and I definitely think individuals need at least a few warnings before and automated system can write a ticket, but the amount of vehicles I see every day in my city going far above the speed limit and driving aggressively (even in inclement weather and busy times) is startling. Police claim they can’t enforce the roads, so I guess it’s options like this.
The other one I'm begging to be enforced is fucking phone use. Every fucking moron I see on the road is staring down at their phone when I go to pass them.
Then there is the argument that the right of others to live and go about their daily business free from avoidable risk trumps your right to use your property as you see fit - no different to felons being banned from owning firearms....
the roads are PUBLIC property. it is a shared space.
if you cannot abide by the agreed-upon rules for using that shared space, you are free to drive whatever you want on private property.
Taxes pay for police cars, but you're not entitled to drive them.
Taxes pay for tanks, but you're not entitled to operate one. etc. etc.
It's a privilege.
>But to suggest the City/County/State be able to hinder and limit the ability of my property is absolutely ridiculous
Pssst: they already are. A phone call to the OEM and most cars built in the last 10 years can be remotely disabled.
https://www .autoevolution .com/news/how-general-motors-can-remotely-disable-a-stolen-car-224715.html
So why would I want them to just keep raising the temperature 1 degree at a time? Surely you understand where Im going with this.
Im aware of GMs capabilities. Didn't agree with it when I read about the implementation of it near 2010.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with it or think its right.
I never asked to take a police car or drive a tank.
Taxes pay for police cars, but you're not entitled to drive them.
Taxes pay for tanks, but you're not entitled to operate one. etc. etc.
It's a privilege.
>But to suggest the City/County/State be able to hinder and limit the ability of my property is absolutely ridiculous
Pssst: they already are. A phone call to the OEM and most cars built in the last 10 years can be remotely disabled.
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>I'm far from one of these sovereign citizen types, but, "a privilege not a right"? You mean to use the roads we get taxed for, in the car I bought and pay taxes for, with the license I paid to have?
Those roads are public property. You paid for a vanishing fraction of the actual cost of upkeep for those roads. Most of the actual cost is never even paid because we keep kicking the can down the road with more debt in the growth ponzi scheme. What about all the people who don't own a car that are taxed for road upkeep anyways?
On your own private roads sure, drive as fast as you'd like with whatever car you'd like. But the public right of way is not your personal property to do with as you please. If you abuse the public right of way you can't be surprised that the public limits your ability to do that abuse.
If you're worried about the government limiting your ability to use or enjoy your property I have some bad news to tell you about what happens if you don't pay your taxes. Or if you buy a gun and discharge it in a built up area. Or if you straight pipe your car. Or any of a thousand other things.
That ship sailed long long ago my friend.
>I'm far from one of these sovereign citizen types, but, "a privilege not a right"? You mean to use the roads we get taxed for, in the car I bought and pay taxes for, with the license I paid to have?
Yes. All of that. It's literally a privilege. It's been covered in numerous laws, court cases, and it's covered pretty in-depth in all the paperwork you fill out while getting your license. In some states, it even says it ON the license.
Freedom of mobility is a right. Operating a motor vehicle on public rights of way is a privilege. It's why you need a license, which can be taken away. As for all the tax stuff... first, if you stop driving you basically stop paying road taxes (most of it comes from gas and registration) and second, you pay taxes for LOTS of things that you do not have a right to — just because my taxes support the F35 program doesn't mean that I get to borrow one for the weekend whenever I want.
Honestly it’s more like a concealed carry permit. (Hear me out if you hate guns and don’t downvote reflexively, this is not a gun post it’s a driving post). Many states are “shall issue” states. If you meet the criteria to have the permit/license then the state MUST issue the license. If it’s shown you no longer meet the criteria, it’s revoked. That is the standard driving is mostly held to.
If they make it “may issue” like concealed carry permits NJ or CA or NY, then that license only becomes a privilege of the rich and or connected.
So, when some people say “it’s a privilege and not a right” it’s important to suss out if they want that privilege issued on a may or shall basis.
On a shall basis, I’m all for putting whatever restrictions the majority of the voting populace that has to live with licensed people want to put on the issuance requirements but those meeting the requirement MUST be issued the license, but personally I will always be vehemently against “may issue” leaving the decision up to a select few individuals that can use it to take bribes or discriminate against people for their own satisfaction. For a great example of why it’s bad, the statistics on how many “may issue” states issued permits to perfectly upstanding, law abiding people of color is appalling.
>Repercussions for driving outside the rules of having that license already exist.
yes and this is for people who have proven they don't give a shit about those repercussions, it's targeted at repeat offenders.
I'd prefer that these people shouldn't be allowed to drive at all, but we all know that doesn't work either as they'll just drive unlicensed and uninsured instead.
I have a right to safely use the roads I paid for in my taxes. If someone is treating them as their own personal raceway and unnecessarily endangering both myself and others, I think it is reasonable for their reckless behaviour to be curtailed until they can prove that they won’t unduly risk my right to life, person and property.
Car registration and gas tax is the "road tax." So if you didn't have a car, you wouldn't be paying for it. That is part of the discussion around electric vehicles: no gas tax, so some places jack up the registration fee or add another tax.
A better argument is that is impossible to live in most places in the US without a car. Even if you live in or around a big city, your work or groceries may be a ways away even by car.
You can use your property (car you bought) on the property you own (private roads).
Roads aren't _your_ property. They're _everyone's_ property, that means it's the government property. You don't get to joyride around in a B-2 and bomb the middle east just because you paid a bunch of taxes for it.
So yes, it's perfectly reasonable for the government to dictate how you're allowed to use their property (the roads). If you dislike how we (the people who elected the government) think the roads should be used, by all means, convince a majority of us to vote for a representative that believes differently.
Yes it’s a privilege. The fact that you paid for it is irrelevant. Drunk drivers also paid for their car, and people who don’t even own cars still pay taxes.
I never put the car in gear w/o a seat belt. Try again. Notice I never said anything about speed limit LAWS.
If you want to read it again, you will see that my issue is with government co trolling my property. Telling someone to wear a seat belt or get a ticket is the same as telling someone obey the speed limit or get a ticket. I don't have an issue with either.
Any other unfounded conclusions you'd like to jump to?
It's not about the seatbelt, it's the attitude.
"I bought and paid for this car! I get to decide if I use the seatbelt!"
"I bought and paid for this car! I get to decide how fast I'm driving!"
I'm sure you always wear your seatbelt. We all do.
Driving IS a privilege tho. You have to meet certain conditions to get your license. It can be revoked anytime. You're paying to use the public infrastructure. A fishing license is kind of the same way. You pay to use the lakes/oceans (government property) for fishing and buy your own equipment
Hope that helps.
Fair enough point. To the point I'll happily contradict myself. I dont have an issue with habitual offenders reckless/dwi/otherwise losing a license. But I still dont like the idea of any type of device that limits the ability of my property. And I chose a poor way of conveying that.
>dont have an issue with habitual offenders reckless/dwi/otherwise losing a license. But I still dont like the idea of any type of device that limits the ability of my property
Wait, isn't losing your license limiting the ability of your property? You can't drive the car on public roads anymore lol
Only legally....it doesn't stop me from being able to drive over the speed limit (like this device would). You are trivializing my point and thats fine. But I know you aren't obtuse.
Okay...? This device only legally stops you from driving over the local speed limit as well, because you could just illegally remove the device in the same way you can illegal drive on public roads without a license.
You lack the ability to differentiate laws on driving vs. actually controlling and inhibiting the ability of my property. And then you made some random false equivalency assumption that didn't apply.
I've said what I said. Sorry if the concept is too hard for you to grasp.
"I never put my car in gear without wearing a seatbelt." Even went on to add that I agree with seatbelt laws. LOL, you must be trolling at this point.
You lack reading comprehension. It's obvious my issue wasn't about whether or not I wear a seatbelt. It was with you using strawman tactics and some false equivalency.
“I never put the car in gear w/o a seat belt. Try again.”
“Any other unfounded conclusions you'd like to jump to?”
Seems like that’s what upset you the most, given it’s what you started and ended your comment about.
What about the sentence that starts "My issue is with..." wouldn't that very clearly identify what my issue is/was?
Either way, Im done with my poop now. Hope you have a great day.
>You mean to use the roads we get taxed for, in the car I bought and pay taxes for, with the license I paid to have?
Yes. Why do you think you need a license? If it was a right, you wouldn't need a license lol
Curious if you have this same mindset of the current administrations over reaches or if you just pick and choose where this applies for whatever suits you
I am 100% not a fan of the current administration. Not Rd1 and certainly not Rd2. Hope that clears things up.
I choose to vote issue by issue, not by party. I like freedom. I think the government should have as limited involvement in people's lives as possible. Especially when it comes to body autonomy.
There is a line from the film Batman Begins that perfectly encapsulates what responsibility the government has to protect its citizens from other citizens who act in a harmful way (eg drunk driving).
Bruce Wayne is incarcerated and gets into a prison brawl. The guards pull him out and when he asks why they tell him “protection”. He tells the guards that he doesn’t need protection. “Protection for them” (the other prisoners).
It's just like when you see those Jews stories where a judge "forces" someone to stand on a street corner with a sign or whatever. You get a bunch of mouth breathers freaking out in the comments about judicial over reach and tyranny etc. but the morons don't understand that those punishments are presented as an optional alternative to jail time by the judges. It's "hey you can do a month in lockup or you can do this embarrassing thing, your choice". This is no different. "We can take your car away entirely because you're that much of a piece of shit or you can accept this device to limit your speed, your choice". It's a good thing.
> There’s always the slippery slope fallacy like we aren’t all driving around with ignition lock breathalyzers right now.
Don't the breathalyzers *prove* the slippery slope?
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>people are acting like this is going on someone who has just one speeding ticket when it’s really for the DUI types.
So are the breathalyzers and those are woefully ineffective. A guy local to me had 16 DUI's before he killed someone.
I assume that the dumbest implantation possible will be what's done.
Flow of traffic is fine too you have to be properly stupid to get your license supended for reckless driving.
> "This legislation was inspired by a crash when four individuals, including three children, were killed when their car was struck by a driver going 112 miles per hour,"
And out of all the states to speed Virginia is at the absolute bottom as it is. Nobody should be driving double the limit in Virginia and get surprised they're getting booked.
I'm always surprised to hear people get booked for going stupid fast in the DC/Nova area. There's so much traffic I don't even know how you can be speeding lol
It's an alternative to losing your license for multiple reckless driving offenses so it likely just removes the leniency you'd otherwise receive by having an incompatible vehicle.
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The law adds an optional punishment in place of a suspended license. Take the variable governor or get a suspended license. No compatibility would simply remove it as an alternative to having your license suspended.
Yup, I remember reading The Federalist #58 where John Jay wrote "... and so it is our moral imperative to never ever ever ever do anything that might inconvenience people who were considering breaking the law. That is the freedom that democracy is based on."
Here’s the thing. At least in my state, it’s only being implemented as a punishment for a conviction of reckless driving (which, by the way, is actually a Class 1 Misdemeanor here). Not people who haven’t. Therefore, it’s not inconveniencing anyone but themselves.
Hopefully, they put it in all vehicles after they see fatal car crashes drop. After all, infringing on people's rights is okay if it means there is a sociological statistic that can be improved.
Unfortunately, for them, this is a typical idea where it looks good on paper, but then 2 years go by and the numbers come out.
Restricting freedom of movement in a motor vehicle implies that the computer knows how to operate better than the operator. It would be a shame if doing this increases the number of overall accidents. Even worse if it increases fatalities because these vehicles bottleneck the "common speed" on the road.
But, of course, this would never happen since policy written to treat the symptoms never fails... right? Right guys?
How about we just put boots on pickup trucks? I'm way more worried about being slammed at 30 mph but some 8 ft concrete wall driven by a baffoon who can't be asked to pay attention, than I am about being hit by a speeding, low, good forward visibility sports car.
Kinetic energy scales linearly with mass but with the square of velocity. A 3500lb car going 100mph has almost 8x the energy of a 5000lb truck going 30mph.
yea, you'll go under the truck and get your skull crushed killing you instantly, but you'll go over the sports car and land on your neck killing you instantly.
its a lose-lose if we are still comparing a fast-low car to a slow-tall truck, you do not want to be hit by either. If we keep their speeds the same then we can compare them.
Kinematics to the rescue!
I just said to a friend, "assume the cow is a sphere," as a joke about generalizing some installation instructions we were following.
As always, the joke was met with blank stares. 🙄
I used to think that too until the “swimming” craze in the North East. Driving like that is not new but the amount of room temperature IQ teenagers that content attracts is terrifying.
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I would consider voting for this after what I saw last night lol. Someone in the left lane of the freeway going 30-35 MPH with a line of cars behind them. They stayed in the left lane for as long as I could see them and I never saw them speed up either. No exaggeration.
Once again saying that in my years of driving, just above the speed limit on average, I have never seen this happen. But I see idiot speeders every day
You are either dangerously unobservant or deliberately telling an untruth if you have never seen people impede the flow of traffic in the left lane by driving more slowly while not passing.
Unless they are passing another vehicle, they have no business being in the lane, particularly to remain there if a faster moving car comes from behind. It is not the job of the average driver to enforce travel speeds.
Dude you’re full of shit I’m sorry
The left lane is strictly for passing. If you have ever seen someone going 10mph over and just handing in the left lane, that’s what they’re doing.
This makes people who actually want to pass start undercutting other cars and everyone ends up getting cut off.
I know. Why wait for a repeated offense? Reckless driving, excessive speeding is something people will always do but most of time but won‘t be caught doing it. So one offense should be enough
Lol yeah that's what I was thinking. Enforcing the law is precisely what it does...
To be fair I think what he was basically trying to say was a refutation of the notion that it was simply words on a piece of paper that would be no different from existing laws.
In this case based on the reading a driver who has a court order to put that on their car disabiliting it would mean jail time. Also chances are disabling it should disable the car.
Lol @ bad drivers. Just because someone has a vehicle that is capable of, the situational awareness required, and the right conditions that allows them to exceed stupid and arbitrary speed limits set for the 86 year old grandma who is blind in one eye and can't walk doesn't make them a "bad driver".
How about creating a device that disables a vehicle when a phone screen is unlocked? Or when there are no hands on the wheel? How about enforcing people using turn signals or yielding appropriately? How about enforcing secure loads in the cabin?
I bet these would prevent way more crashes and serious injuries. But no. Let's get the low hanging fruit that will do precisely nothing.
Don't have to unlock your phone screen to do that. Every car sold since 2010 has built in Bluetooth and newer ones have an emergency service button. Furthermore, cars that don't have a Bluetooth connection (pre 2010) typically have afterarket head units installed by their previous owners if for no other reason than to listen to modern music.
In summary, you would actually have to try REALLY HARD to justify opening a phone screen in very very few real situations.
Excessive speeding is dangerous not because of driver skill or engineering improvements. It’s dangerous because it’s unpredictable. No one is expecting to have to adjust their reaction times to your unexpected behaviour.
That said, you’re not wrong about bad drivers. I’ve lost one car to “being parked under a streetlight” and another to “idiot thought it was a good idea to cut across traffic while their view was completely obstructed”.
The autobahn directly refutes this. One of the safest roads in the world but some people going 60mph others going 100+mph.
Having better drivers testing would fix the problem better than this nonsense.
The autobahn is built to a more rigid standard to support the weight of military vehicles, not because of how fast cars are going on the road. There would not need to be a tax increase just to support faster roads.
Not remotely true.
The curve radii allowed, grade of slope, roadbed depth, and imperfections are significantly different than in the US.
If you want that, it would cost money. So yes, you would need to increase taxes. That or just keep widening the deficit, which would be stupid.
Completely true* FIFY
No road changes would need to occur, not a single thing would have to change for vehicles to drive faster on the current roads, just better drivers with more stringent testing to become licensed.
Things aren't true just because you want them to be.
Again; road imperfections, bed depth, grade, and curves would all need to be adjusted.
The Autobahn maintains specific standards, a few of which allow for the speeds permitted. The potholes allowed in the US would be a disaster, as would the shallower bed depth.
A lot of areas would need to adjust for grade and curve if unrestricted zones were to be implemented in said area.
You are making assumptions that these things would be required. Just because you believe these things are needed doesn't make it so. The only real concern is the existing pot holes, which there is already funding for repair with current tax dollars. Whether or not your local area actually does anything about it is a different story. Bed depth, grade, and curves would not NEED to be adjusted.
US roads are largely designed for the 85th percentile observed speeds for the area + ~15mph.
If you want unrestricted zones, and you don't want them immediately repealed, then yes we would need to adjust the infra.
Please spend a few seconds doing some research before making things up.
https://www.ite.org/technical-resources/topics/speed-management-for-safety/setting-speed-limits/
https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/research/RNAProjDocs/2017-10%20Final%20Report.pdf
"Without compelling evidence from critical roadway and traffic elements, the 85th percentile is used as a standard" thats from the link you shared where they flat out say they use numbers not based on the actual road conditions.
I'm amazed you thought this to be some kind of gotcha.
1. That is a guideline saying use the 85th percentile unless you have reason to use otherwise.
2. I said the roads are largely designed for the 85th percentile speeds, and have presented evidence of such.
3. There are pages and pages showing that engineers perform quantitative research on speed limits and road design in that very PDF.
I never claimed it as a gotcha, you are just getting butt hurt over the topic and taking things personally lol.
Testing the actual road conditions, which they could easily do, is better than made up numbers like they do now. As an engineer myself, i understand how much of this is made up nonsense by some boardroom committee and not actual research. Their "research" is laughable at best when using arbitrary numbers about roads that have yet to be built.
The key is still that they could easily test this on existing roads but choose not to. Hell most of the streets in my city were built in the 50s and 60s and have had the same speed limits since then with no change even tho no research went into those roads when constructed, funny how people fly down those roads at 2x or more of the speed limit and there aren't daily crashes there and the roads aren't crumpling.. almost like roads can easily take these conditions without large infrastructure changes deemed necessary by some committee that doesn't know what they are doing. Lol, but whatever, you've made up your mind no matter what the reality on these streets are.
lol you clearly did, and that’s some wild projection there.
Thy do test road conditions, again, in the pdf you quoted from. You just didn’t read.
“The reality on these streets” - ie: in your head.
I don’t believe you’re an engineer for one second given the amount of things you just made up in that diatribe.
You cannot say “I see people speeding near me therefore our highways can handle unrestricted zones” with a straight face lol.
Lol i don't need you to believe me but clearly you don't know how to read the report or comprehend what it says. 🤡
In my head, also known as observed conditions not calculated via an arbitrary computer simulation, as listed in the pdf but you knew that cuz u read it and comprehended the text right? Haha. They clearly state that they have not done controlled testing on the roads and use accident reports to determine the outcomes of various speeds on the roads along with other conditions. Those would be wildly skewed if you had drivers at the german level vs the us level on the same exact road. Thats testing driver competency more than what the road can actually handle.
The autobahn has very different education, licensing and infrastructure standards.
To do it safely you have to put all those structures in place first.
> The autobahn has very different education, licensing and infrastructure standards.
Germany has those standards, not the people driving in Germany as a whole. U.S. drivers, typically portrayed as under-skilled, can drive the same speeds in Germany as anyone else. Not to say that the culture of lane discipline isn't important to the comparative success of the autobahns, but you won't get autobahn results through stricter licensing, if that was even achievable.
As for infrastructure, German highways tend to be overbuilt to a greater extent than other places, but not in ways that make them safer than the U.S. American federal government policy exhibits fetishistic levels of safety focus. For roads, NHTSA, and further pressure from the insurance industry group IIHS. That's why the ["Emergency Highway Energy Conservation Act"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law) stayed in place long after the energy crisis was over, contributing to generations of Americans who have low trust in government.
How would you have a no speed limit road and a speed limit gaping control device?
Edit:
Sorrt didn't realize this was a response to a different comment.
We could kinda have both though i am of the belief that the public should have voting rights when it comes to roads speed limits to a point. This comes from my perspective (tucson az) where they keep lowering 6 lane roads speedlimits with concrete medians down to 35mph and we have no highway or anything cutti g through our city. This seems fucked as cars are safer than they have ever been for both driver and pedestrians...
Every one of these idiots in this thread claiming "Speeding isn't dangerous!!!" need to go watch Ghost riders Youtube videos where they do insanely dangerous shit by "Checks notes" Speeding.
Shit go watch any dip shit Squid doing 120 MPH and then getting clipped becuese a guy decided to change lanes. But you are being an absolute moron going 120 MPH so you don't have any time to react to it.
Want to speed? Go find a rural road with no one around that has clear lines of sight. Otherwise fuck off and keep to within 5-10 MPH of the speed limit +/-.
Or even better, keep your speeding limited to the track.
Perhaps we should be teaching people how to drive better? I can go 245 on the track regularly, and I absolutely bet I can do the same on a wide variety of public roads safely, but having a working brain, I won't be doing that in traffic or in adverse conditions or if the threat of animals is real.
Most people "recklessly driving" or being unpredictable are doing so because there are a lot of other issues going on like road rage or just general asshattery.
No one else is expecting you to be travelling at those rates of speeds on public roads in most jurisdictions. That is the key difference.
If you want to be able to safely and legally drive at those rates of speeds, you need to live somewhere where the drivers education, licensing and infrastructure standards all support that.
You need to overhaul the entire system first. You can’t just say it shouldn’t apply to you because you’re special.
A reasonable person drives *around* the posted speed limit of a road, because that is the societal expectation.
For example, if a road is posted at 70mph, but everybody normally does 75-80mph, then it is reasonable to do 80mph.
It is absolutely unreasonable to to 90 or 100mph, or greater, just as it is unreasonable to do 60mph. Both ends are dangerous and unpredictable.
Whether the road is "safe" to drive above the posted speed limit is irrelevant.
Driving “around” the speed limit, and what the person I was replying to are two very different things.
Everyone generally expects most of the other cars around them to be doing the speed limit +\- 20% or so. They generally don’t expect that cars may be going +\-50% or more.
80-120km/h in a 100km/h zone is to be reasonably expected. 50-150km/h is not.
Just be predictable.
You're really arguing their point for them lmao.
No, 240 on public streets isn't acceptable even if you "go that on the track regularly" because everyone else on the road isn't expecting some fucking idiot doing 240 when they pull out into the street or change lanes.
I'm not arguing any point, I'm just saying, for people with a working brain, they won't do aggressive maneuvers or go 245 on a public road. If there isn't anyone around and the conditions are right, I don't see the issue. And having "mandatory speed limiters" is unnecessary. We should instead be focusing on better driver education and enforcing other laws. Laws that prevent the bimbo next to me in bumper to bumper traffic, putting on makeup, eating a salad, and watching the latest rerun of the bachelor on her phone perched on her dash. Yes. This is a real scenario.
>It’s dangerous because it’s unpredictable.
There's nothing dangerous about going 90 on Midwest interstates where you see 1 person every 15 minutes.
What's dangerous is relative speed (commonly referred to as Flow of Traffic) aka going 20mph+ over the people next to you. The same reason where you can be found at fault if you fly pat a line of stopped cars while going the speed limit. High relative speed deltas make all maneuvers more dangerous and have shorter windows.
If safety is the goal, we should be going after distracted drivers, not speeders, because distracted driving is more dangerous than influenced driving.
So you're saying they should just install a governor at the factory, capping speeds to legal limits for everyone at all times?
It is kind of bizarre, almost like entrapment - for governments to allow the sale of vehicles that *aren't* speed governed, and then profit from citations when people exceed those speed limits.
It's like if they banned the consumption of cocaine, but allowed the sale and possession of cocaine, so they'd profit off of fines whenever anyone consumed it.
If there's no legitimate reason to possess something, why not just ban the ownership of vehicles designed to exceed the maximum legal speed limit in the first place?
I agree that there are too many other infractions that go unpunished. If someone is going 85 mph in the left lane in a 70 zone, that's not as dangerous as someone that changes lanes quickly without looking or signaling.
lol just because someone isn’t capable of the situational awareness, and right conditions that allow them to unlock a phone screen and glance at a text unlike the 86 year old grandpa who can only see out of one eye, doesn’t make them a bad driver.
It's useless. Some people seem to think there's no such thing as a good or bad driver. That a car is basically an appliance that we all use, like a microwave. "What do you mean, you're good at microwave? Everyone's just closing the door and pressing buttons?"
Another cohort are just self-righteous dorks that are convinced they're the best arbitrator and enforcer of what is a safe speed in any given context. The "If I'm going X mph in Y conditions then anyone wanting to go faster is wrong." crowd.
>Just because someone has a vehicle that is capable of, the situational awareness required, and the right conditions that allows them to exceed stupid and arbitrary speed limits set for the 86 year old grandma who is blind in one eye and can't walk doesn't make them a "bad driver".
Not driving appropriately for the conditions does make someone a bad driver. Driving recklessly on public roads makes someone a bad driver. Save it for the track and/or autox, not public roads.
I have a violation for over 100+ MPH. If I were in a state trying to do this I would say fine, but drop my points from my record so I don’t get ravaged by insurance. It’s only fair if I can’t even go fast enough to be a risk anymore right?
Is this the post where the entire subreddit claims that speeding is no big deal and they can do 30 over without issue because they are "better drivers"?
The justification of speeding on this subreddit is terrifying. The faster you go, the more likely an accident is to be fatal, full stop.
Do you think the speed limit is always the safest speed to drive in every situation? The fact is that in general, going with the flow of traffic is the safest way to drive. This device would make that impossible on a lot of roads. I’d rather these assholes just get their license revoked than being put back on the road in a way that makes them disrupt traffic.
Going the speed limit is always without exception going to give drivers more time to react to events AND be less likely to cause a fatality in a crash than going over the speed limit. Always. Anyone that can't grasp that shouldn't have a license.
Yes, the slower you’re moving, the more reaction time you have and the less energy there is in a crash. Completely agree, and if every car followed the speed limit it would save thousands of lives.
But speed differentials are also dangerous. If the flow of traffic is 65mph on a 55mph limit highway, going the speed limit can be less safe than matching the flow of traffic. It makes causes more lane changes from other cars needing to merge and pass, it makes those lane changes more dangerous, it can surprise other drivers who then brake aggressively and causes a chain reaction, it causes bad drivers to tailgate/road rage.
This isn’t something I’m just pulling out of my ass, there’s been a ton of research on this. Look up the Solomon Curve. The risk of being involved in an accident is a U-shaped curve with the lowest risk being near the flow of traffic.
Sure, if everyone was limited to the speed limit, the roads would be a lot safer. But that’s not going to happen and it’s not remotely politically feasible, so in the actual real world we live in, putting these devices in any street legal car seems like a bad idea.
The punishment right now is to take these reckless drivers’ licenses away. That is the safest and most reasonable solution.
? That’s not what I’m saying…
If you want to try and get a law passed limiting every driver on the road, more power to you. If it was feasible to implement and it was paired with a reassessment of speed limits to actually reflect the 85th percentile standard they’re supposed to be based on, I would support it 100%. It would save a lot of lives.
But when we’re looking at a single real-world law that just got passed, you can’t ignore the context. The context here is that a small number of vehicles will be limited to the speed limit while the large majority are not.
People drive on real roads in the real world, not hypothetical ones where all the traffic laws you want exist. If in the real world this law is going to cause hazardous speed differentials, then imo they should rethink the strategy.
As a motorcyclist anyone who claims "Being a better driver" means you won't get into an accident is a fucking moron.
Going faster inherently means you have less time to react, less time to think of a solution. and your vehicle has less time to follow that solution. If I take my S1000RR out for a spin and get into a brown alert situation, I'll have far more time to react going 60 MPH than I will going 120.
Speeding past the point of being close to the speed limit, makes crashing far more likely and far more deadly.
I'm about to go sea kayaking later this week, which will involve a 3 hour purely interstate drive. I usually do it at 65, because 1) the Jeep eats gas anyway and 2) even moreso with a 17' boat on the roof. If anyone runs into me going 10mph under the limit on a 3-lane road where I'm in the right lane, they do not have the awareness to belong on a highway.
Slippery slope fallacy is meaningless.
We don't have breathalyzers in our cars, we don't have ankle monitors we have to wear, we dont have our vehicles governed at 85mph.
Just because something exists doesn't mean its going to become mandatory.
> We don't have breathalyzers in our cars,
One of the parts of the infrastructure bill was to make tech like this mandatory for everyone.
Of course, seeing as breathalyzers are garbage pieces of equipment that throw false positives all the time, need to get "recalibrated" every month at the issuer's expense and only exist to suck money from DUI convicts under the pretenses that nobody gives a fuck about them and seeing as the technology to make breathalyzers noninvasive, accurate and routine doesn't exist, it got scrapped or otherwise died.
There's a reason the *only* people who have them in their cars are those who are court-ordered to. There's no "Better Be Safe Brad" with one on their own accord.
Why am I not surprised you didn't read these articles before linking them? 😂 None of these say anything about creating a breathalyzer mandate.
Why lie and then link the proof that you're lying? Did you hope nobody would read the article? 🤣
These people start off with a belief and when it's challenged they frantically Google things to find "proof" then share what they find without understanding it because they didn't base their belief on anything real to begin with.
> The agency says an advance notice of proposed rule making will help it gather information about the state of technology to detect impaired driving. The regulation would set standards for the devices once technology is mature, NHTSA said in a statement.
> It can take years for a regulation to make its way through the process, which includes public comment periods.
Its not 100% going to happen. They put aside some money to investigate possible technologies and options. The wording in the bill was to explore the tech for the purpose of making it law. The regulation is not set in stone.
This part of the regulatory process. In order to be accountable, the government needs to set aside money to research something before they mandate it.
Its the governments job to research and investigate these things.
Most things that are researched do not get implemented. Would you rather the government just implement things without researching the technology and impact or possible alternatives?
I actually agree with your take. These are for people with multiple convictions. The data is there for DUI deaths, it's almost always reoffenders. I'm down with speed breathalyzers.
REVOKE LICENSES!! IT'S NOT THAT HARD
Stop acting like driving is a right. You're a recidivist? Great! Enjoy your 3 years without a license.... what? It makes your life difficult? Well too bad big boy. You should've thought about that earlier..
Driving is not a right, yet they act like it is. They'll do everything to let these people still drive...
REVOKE LICENSES!!!!
"Washington's state traffic safety commission reported that fatal crashes involving speeding drivers increased nearly 40% between 2019 and 2023."
2019 - COVID 2023 - Everyone on the road again...
40% sounds pretty cherry picked to me. I'm not denying that people are fools in general but speed is rarely the issue where I'm at and I agree reckless driving needs to be punished and the issue in general pushed harder, but this smells a big ole pile of lawsuit waiting to happen at some point when someone inevitably get's killed because their car can't accelerate past the speed limit to get them out of a situation. I know it would be niche, but the scenario is out there.
My issue is now that these laws go in effect, how long before 'hey we are going to pass laws requiring ALL NEW cars to have this technology and will not allow you to drive over the speed limit', going into further and further from actually owning your own car. This sounds silly, but I mean....
Years ago DLC in video games were a gross joke. Today the entire industry rides on top of the (MASSIVE) profits from it..
I was a bit worried until the last section.
It isn’t like Uncle Sam is just throwing these on cars because you got a speeding ticket. It’s used for people *repeatedly getting caught for reckless driving*
It isn’t even the default either… it’s an alternative for people who would otherwise lose their licenses at that point. The only people this will “control” are those that otherwise wouldn’t be allowed to drive anymore anyway…
I know it may be unpopular in a car subreddit, but I’ve got kids and I don’t want some someone killing them in a car accident that could’ve been minor injuries or nothing at all if they’d just kept a more reasonable speed. If you’re a repeat offender, you’re being irresponsible and their data is showing that there are real consequences to it… the extra 40% of people who died had loved ones and families and many of them may not have been at fault.
Great. So in addition to paying higher insurance rates because I share a chromosome with the demographic that has the most accidents I would now be unable to exceed a speed limit because we’re handing out driver’s licenses like candy to people who don’t even speak the language the road signs are written in
It will end up like speed cameras in school zones. It's a great idea to use them as speed enforcement while school zone lights are flashing. It's NOT okay to run them 24/7 at the reduced school zone speed. You're a great driver. Sunday afternoon you drive by a school at the posted 45 mph limit. A few days later, you get a ticket for 45 in a 25. Good idea in its inception, but it gets weaponized against people who follow the law.
This type of law is both intrusive and compromises safety. It disables the ability for a prudent driver using the same car from driving with the reasonable flow of traffic just because that speed exceeds an arbitrary limit imposed by government.
hahahahhaa I am glad I left that state, some funny things, my oldest car is an 85, they will never be able to control how or where I drive! lol you folks are insane to buy a new car, never mine they aren't built to last, **Yes, some newer vehicles can be remotely disabled** if you don’t pay your car loan, especially if they’re financed through certain lenders or buy-here-pay-here dealerships. hahaha had it happen to a buddy, but he had his stub to prove, took a few days ! hahahashahahahahahaah
Hope the tech is better than in my work truck. It supposedly displays the current speed limit but is often hilariously wrong. Someone being forced to drive 35 mph on the interstate would be a genuine hazard.
It's a camera based thing. My Toyota has one.
It's fun to see times where Google Maps claims the speed limit is 55, the camera says 35 because it missed the sign, and then I see a sign that says 65.
Cars have had cameras to read road signs for a while now. It's not even a particularly high-end feature.
They are quite often wrong because although detecting and reading signs is easy from a technical standpoint, the systems are utterly incapable of telling if they're reading a sign that is meant for them. They sometimes read the 30 sign from the side road that is physically separated from the 70 road you're on, and yell at you for reckless speeding.
My Ford often displays the wrong speed limit on the dash while Google maps is correct.
I suspect they are getting the data elsewhere, possibly open street maps.
Every rental car I've ever driven that has this feature uses cameras. It honestly might be less reliable than Google Maps since signs are sometimes obscured by branch, another sign post, or poor lighting.
Mine has that feature too but frequently misreads the signs. On the road here in my town, the speed limit is 40 but it always shows 80 in a specific spot for like 5-10 seconds or so.
The speed limit from VW's navigation and even the sign recognition is laughable and displays the wrong sizes 90% of the time. Once it read a 100 km/h table as 10 km/h. Would be funny if the car braked for me and someone rear ended me.
We have roads where the limit is higher outside of tourist season. I often get stuck behind work vehicles with "this vehicle is monitored..." stickers.
Every fall, when the limit goes back up from 40 to 50, I get stuck behind someone who cannot go over 39mph, on a road where most non-commercial traffic is going 60-65.
Amount of people here willing to trade freedom for safety would make Ben sick.
Amount of people here willing to trust our government to never use this as a form of control is sad. Hell monetary commitment to have to pay for a tracking device is bad, let's add more ways to fuck the poor.
You want safety let's all go back to sub 100 horse cars and a 55 mph speed limit, where's the harm? Makes people safer, makes the streets and highways safer?
If that sounds distasteful then maybe you should understand where the detractors of this shit are coming from.
Only for repeat reckless driving offenders? Sure. Fuck those guys. That's a decently hard ticket to get in the first place, much less multiple times.
Similar scenario with getting multiple DUIs and being required to have a breathalyzer in your vehicle to start it.
> Reckless driving isn't just speeding, it's literally reckless driving that endangers people.
Except in Virginia, in which case 10 MPH over a 70 MPH limit can be considered reckless.
30 kmh over a limit or 20 (12.5 miles) if in a 10 zone in australia. I once received a ticket in australia for THREE Kilometers over limit. I wish we had american laws.
Driving to conditions is more important than an arbitrary number made up for the lowest common denominator. Sometimes its not even safe to drive at arbitrary number.
You think getting a 200$ fine for driving 3, yes THREE Kilometers over the speed limit helps the road toll? Safer cars, and education helps more than revenue raising does for the road toll. Not having people on the road that can't drive helps the road toll.
Yes. I do think that.
I'd bet that you hate to admit it but you stopped speeding after that.
Id prefer an income/asset based fine but more and stricter punishments absolutely slow people down.
Speeding? 3 km over the arbitrary limits in perfect conditions, no one around and in a car built and modified to stop and handle well? 🤣
C'mon you dont have to lick the boat that hard. That isn't about safety that's about revenue pure and simple. Thats not miles that KILOMETERS. Thats oh look im going down a hill, "speeding". Oh cruise control crept a bit, "speeding" 🤣
The majority of the cars in my metro area could technically be cited for 'reckless driving' when its free flowing. That's the case in a lot of areas where traffic flows at 15-20mph higher than the posted limit. If you attempted to go the speed limit you would be a danger to yourself and others.
I heard that about a lot of places, and every time I went to one, I saw traffic that mostly moves around the speed limit, and maybe one lane that goes faster.
>Similar scenario with getting multiple DUIs and being required to have a breathalyzer in your vehicle to start it.
Well here in NC you can get one DUI and still need a breathalyzer... But I do agree with these anti-speed controls for drivers with terrible driving records. I've been driving for... damn.... math.... 28 years now, and I've only ever had a few speeding tickets. Been pulled over more than that and let off with warnings. And I consistently speed 10-15 over on the highway.
But it's not difficult to maintain a relatively clean driving record. Just don't be a dumbass, and be aware of your surroundings if you're going to speed some. If someone can't do that, they don't need to be speeding.
And if they're getting a reckless driving charge they need to pull their head out of their ass. If they're getting more than one, I'm perfectly happy with them locked to the speed limit, because obviously they're not learning from their mistakes.
Surly you don’t think it will always and forever be *only* for repeat reckless driving offenders, do you? That’s just how the use of this technology gets its foot in the door, like how the Patriot Act was sold to us as saving people from “the terrorists” but was used to surveil civilians with no discernible ties to “terrorism” in at least 80% of cases.
Excessive speeding, usually 30mph+ over will carry a criminal speeding citation that requires an appearance.
Reckless driving requires excessive speeding + dangerous driving like weaving or blatantly disregarding other people's safety and traffic laws.
My big problem with it is the technology just isn't reliable. What happens when your GPS reads the 45 mph outer road parallel to the interstate all of a sudden and drastically cuts your power? And a myriad number of other similar situations. It's just like the stupid breathalyzer interlocks. Great in theory, but they don't work for shit, and until they do, they're fucking useless.
how about making not weigh 3 tons with shit visibility and reduce deaths that way? or invest in public transit so the people who don’t and can’t drive aren’t driving and there are less dumbasses on the road?
No sure, let's let the government track our cars and control them because a few people are idiots. Maybe next they can make your engine shut down if you are late on taxes.
Instead why don't we just increase the penalty to include suspension / revocations at a quicker rate than current?
Saying it’s only going to be used for twice convicted reckless drivers is just a way to get it in the door with minimal opposition. If/when that happens, look for it to become required for all cars a few years later. My only question is what’s going to replace the revenue they make from citations?
For context, when income tax laws were introduced, they only applied to the top 1% of earners. Without thorough pushback, there’s no reason to think they won’t try to expand this technology to eventually being mandatory for everyone.
That's not "context"; it's a fallacy. Specifically, it's the slippery slope fallacy.
Here, let me try one. The government should not be allowed to imprison anyone. If they can imprison anyone, then they will eventually use that power to imprison all of us in labor camps. Therefore, jailing anyone is government overreach and we should not stand for it.
Would you like to try another? It's fun being completely illogical.
Then explain how the income tax can go from being for basically no one or maybe very little for everyone but a small exception to being a broad tax on everyone? Sometimes a slippery slope is a fallacy but sometimes a slippery slope is an actual slippery slope!
I never once said that applying this now would definitely lead to more broad application down the road, all I was saying is it has to be remembered that’s a possibility if this technology is applied at all, similar to the income tax expansion. I don’t think it’s illogical to think people pushing this advance today would want it expanded if it works potentially to the point of it being applied universally. I don’t have any evidence to prove that, but it’s a pluralistic democracy, I think people hold any kind of possible opinion on an issue. Does that mean it absolutely will be expanded? No, absolutely not. But I think the possibility should be pointed out with context of similar situations happening previously so anyone in a more moderate position can keep that in their head in the future and understand that. Maybe they’ll say, “ok, I like the application today on double convicted reckless drivers and will support it but I’ll also make sure I ask my future candidates their stance on this issue to make sure this doesn’t go further, even if it is successful in these more extreme cases.” All I did was provide that previous context that hopefully was a good reminder that policies can be pushed further without voter vigilance/action against such further push.
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We don't do routine vehicle inspections in WA. I don't see how requiring every car to have speed limiting technology would work when we can't even require them to have working brakes.
Just like how breathalyzers in cars are a requirement in every vehicle and we all have to wear ankle monitors whenever we leave our homes, right?
Your slippery slope fallacy is a silly thought process that is not based in any type of reality.
Isn't that a thing that is already happening?
https://apnews.com/article/alcohol-breath-test-devices-required-new-vehicles-2a2e2862691ecea396df3ab66d4440c6
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They go to prison eventually. I've met a few like that who thought they could flaunt the government's orders not to drive. After a year in jail and 8 years without a license, when they finally grew up and got that privilege back, you know they learned their lesson.
I love how based on an abstract number at the posted limit means the driver is a good driver. But nudge just over the posted limit and now the operator is a bad driver.
Driving skill be damned. It's all about the driver's rate of travel.
This society is plagued with shitty logic and people whose anxiety behind the wheel has to be suffered by everyone on the road.
You are wrong. Speed cameras and forcing people to follow the limits reduce collisions and fatalities.
> A recent Cochrane review examining 35 studies investigating the effect of speed cameras on speed and collisions concluded that although the quality of the studies was moderate at best, the consistency of all studies to report a positive reduction in either speed or collisions was impressive [Wilson et al, 2011]. Five of these studies were performed in the US with the remainder being largely European and Australian (speeding tolerances vary by country and driver attitudes toward speeding).
[One of many, many sources.](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3861844/)
Correct, you are projecting your wrong at me.
The problem with the study you're leaning on confirmation bias to argue with is that it happened under conditions that imposed potential for being ticketed and fined.
That's the underlying factor. Threat of negative punitive consequence puts people to being compliant with local limits.
Exceeding those limits does not, in any way, equate to a bad driver doing bad things. All it is is, an operator who is not complying with measures that have nothing to do with safety and are there to effect smooth operating traffic that's been put at rate of travel that allows the lower skilled, anxiety riddled drivers on the road to operate.
It is a hard fact that the vast majority of collisions, permanent disability, and fatalities occur at or below the posted limit. [The Solomon curve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve) has been in effect your entire driving life. Meanwhile, motorists have been unjustly held back from traveling safe rates of travel due states and municipalities disregard of the [85th percentile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit#Operating_speed). Which again, is happening to allow the lowest skilled operators to function with the least amount of incident on the road.
By forcing everyone to drive the speed limit, we then solve the problems you discuss.
You are twisting logic to justify speeding, thats all.
All evidence points towards limiting speeds for all drivers reduces fatalities. If you can keep everyone under a speed limit the issue you discuss disappear.
False. The Solomon curve demonstrates that regardless the posted limit, slower moving vehicles create a speed differential that creates a high probability of collision. The effect is supported by the sheer shit-ton of collisions that happen at and or below posted limits.
Reducing speed does not limit fatalities. What it does is lessen the likelihood of a fatality. Which is as force multiplied by velocity are factors mitigated by driver training, vehicle design, and positive environmental factors such as EMT response time, location, and weather.
Accusing me of twisting logic is further projection of self. I have no need to twist logic because, what even do you do when a family of four is lost in a collision that occurs below the posted limit? What ever is your response to the high percent of collision below the posted limit that are not fatal but do result in permanent disability? And what do you have to say about the greater number of collisions above posted limits that see all parties walk away with minor or, no injury at all?
Just come out and say, you suffer anxiety, and if given your druthers, would enforce ever lower posted limits, increase penalties, and increase the presence of police and electronic devices so that no one on the road drives beyond your ability to avoid giving yourself anxiety.
Take a mild dose of xananx and leave functioning operators alone already.
So out of the spirit of compromise I make an edit but that person coming at me claiming that I'm wrong, and then accusing me of twisting logic is allowed to stay?
Well. Okay.
I'm keep that in mind the next time I'm put upon to effect unnecessary changes to appease a person who initiated contact.
As much as everyone enjoys and benefits from internet lawyering, we're not always super inclined to participate. Keep in mind that clicking "remove" is our lowest-effort option, and we're keen to use it once things have devolved into bickering and fruitless argument.
Food for thought: Right or wrong, it's doubtless that anyone's mind has been changed by an argument on the internet.
For clarity, there's neither an attack, which is not listed in sub rules nor is there an insult. The exchange while in disagreement is not uncivil.
Those are encouragements for the person to own their motivations as well incorporate a widely accepted solution to prevent themselves an unwanted response to prevailing conditions.
But look...you ask them to remove their false accusation at me, I'll edit my own post to, I don't know...not upset someone who shows themselves easily upset to the point of putting it on others to compensate them.
> I love how based on an abstract number at the posted limit means the driver is a good driver. But nudge just over the posted limit and now the operator is a bad driver.
Where do you live that nudging over the posted limit gets you branded as a bad driver?
Which is why I love that cops around here use discretion. I commute at 4:30am on a posted 55mph road. With no traffic, I'm comfortable at 70-75. As long as you're not otherwise being stupid, they won't even bother for less than 70. I got stopped one morning over the winter going 74, and the Trooper gave me only a verbal warning.
Aye. Here there's a three lane stretch of 55mph where a vehicle can safely do 75mph with no threat of cars turning across or into the flow of traffic. It's routine that a dozen cars or more are well over the posted limit.
Traveling in the right lane against a high side curb, a full sized pickup truck in the center lane that didn't see me in the blind spot began coming my way. With vehicles stacked up behind me, the thing to do to avoid collision was mash the throttle and accelerate beyond the truck. I blurped over 75 right into a speed trap. After some explanation of why I did what I did, I was given a ticket. Several minutes later, the cop went to the spot and was able to visualize what occurred. He called me saying he changed it to a warning which, was his only option since he had already filed the ticket otherwise, it'd have been nothing at all.
Thanked him, wished him a good day and thought maybe next time I'm just going to say, 'Come on. Get in the car. Let me show you what happened'
Funny enough a maneuver like you did to avoid that crash becomes impossible with this device. I can’t help but feel a device that limits your ability to control a car near regular operating speeds is a recipe for disaster.
My car has pre collision braking. It gets false positives all the fucking time. I disabled it because it has more than once prevented me from getting out of a sketch situation quickly.
"No I'm not about to hit him, he's making a turn, now stop beeping and release my brake damnit! There is a log truck on my ass at 65!"
There's a tendency to effect the dumbest possible solution then double down on it again and again despite all evidence to the contrary.
Get the slow to process what's happening around them operators and the people with anxiety off the road and watch everything open up.
The Government put a cork in your exhaust pipe. They call it a Diesel Particulate Filter or a catalytic converter & told you it was for clean air & less Co2 emissions. now the engine uses more fuel and go through regeneration cycle that puts raw fuel in the exhaust stroke to super heat the exhaust to bun out part of the particulates it collected. Adding the same Co2 and carbon footprint as before. Every EPA mandate causes more fuel consumption. Smog equipment is designed to cost more to repair & make it harder to own a older car or truck & pass smog laws. It's about burning more fuel & have the owner buy a newer one to pass emission inspections easier. Nothing ta do with clean air.
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This will quietly disappear the first time a family of four gets destroyed by a semi when they’re trying to merge on the freeway and can’t go any faster.
This is being floated as a device a court can have fitted to your car if you're a repeat offender instead of revoking your license, like a breathalyzer device for serial DUIers.
That seems perfectly reasonable on one hand, but on the other, why are we giving people like this the option to keep their license? Reckless driving charges are not things you get from doing 5 or 10 or even 15 mph over the limit. And to get multiple of them shows you're a menace to other road users. Moreover, reckless driving isn't just about speeding. Weaving, passing on the shoulder or in a median, etc. all qualify and this device does nothing to curb that.
We are way too reluctant to take driving privileges away in this country. You can kill someone driving drunk or while on your phone, or just by being an asshole driver and get a slap on the wrist compared to the penalties for killing someone else any other way.
It is for repeat reckless driving offenders. 40% increase in FATAL crashes due to speeding in a 4 year period is insanely bad. Are you wanting to kill people over repeat offenders getting a device that limits their speed?
Do you honestly think the use cases won’t be expanded over time? First it’s just for “the bad people”, but eventually everyone will have to have one “for safety”. The totalitarian tip-toe is real.
Just like NYC speed cameras. At first they were installed in school zones, and were only turned on during school hours. Now they're everywhere and run 24/7.
And in NYC fatalities have been going down compared to the rest of the country where they are increasing. [source](https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/pr2022/dot-meet-commitment-make-safety-imporvement-intersection.shtml)
Speed cameras and forcing people to follow the limits reduce collisions and fatalities.
> A recent Cochrane review examining 35 studies investigating the effect of speed cameras on speed and collisions concluded that although the quality of the studies was moderate at best, the consistency of all studies to report a positive reduction in either speed or collisions was impressive [Wilson et al, 2011]. Five of these studies were performed in the US with the remainder being largely European and Australian (speeding tolerances vary by country and driver attitudes toward speeding).
[One of many, many sources.](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3861844/)
Drivers shouldn’t be punished if idiot pedestrians don’t know how to look both ways before crossing. NYC is artificially decreasing speed limits for additional revenue, not pedestrian safety.
Oh so now your argument is its about revenue and pedestrians are dumb?
I thought you had some evidence that speeding and deaths are not related besides just talking out your ass. Guess I was wrong.
Of course it’s about revenue! NYC is looking for every excuse to rip NY’ers off. Instead of educating pedestrians to use their eyes they’re implementing incredibly low speed limits and onerous amounts of cameras to punish drivers. As a car enthusiast you shouldn’t be for this.
As a car enthusiest, I want less people to die. Speed cameras and speed control devices lower deaths. I have evidence for that. You dont have any evidence for the contrary.
Always hilarious when an entitled rich asshole talks about people 'worshiping the government' whenever he might have to face actual consequences for his actions.
Haha I sometimes drive exactly the speed limit when I’m just cruising around and most of the time that pisses people off who want to go 35 or 40 in a residential city neighborhood. I can imagine this will annoy basically everyone
Of course....nerf the world to make it safe for everyone so no one ever gets hurt due to one accident.
The stats used to justify the new law are dubious. Covid made TONS of people stop driving so fatal crashes were down significantly in those years. Claiming they rose by over 40% is a manipulation and clearly designed to sway public opinion
Bad driver does not equate to doesn't drives the speed limit. Slow drivers are a huge part OF the issue of bad drivers. As are inattentive drivers, ppl who are afraid of driving and ppl who are driving illegally or driving without being educated about it.
You are wrong. Speed cameras and forcing people to follow the limits reduce collisions and fatalities.
> A recent Cochrane review examining 35 studies investigating the effect of speed cameras on speed and collisions concluded that although the quality of the studies was moderate at best, the consistency of all studies to report a positive reduction in either speed or collisions was impressive [Wilson et al, 2011]. Five of these studies were performed in the US with the remainder being largely European and Australian (speeding tolerances vary by country and driver attitudes toward speeding).
[One of many, many sources.](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3861844/)
As a European living in the U.S., one of my favorite things about the U.S. is how it feels like such a "lawless" place compared to Europe. In a good way.
I hope stuff like this doesn't make it through, it's one step further into invasion of privacy.
Next thing you know, it'll be like Europe... no tinted windows, must pass inspections for any modifications, speed cameras absolutely everywhere, displacement taxes.. 🤦🏻♂️
Was pre covid and a highway in the northern territory. Will have to do a search when i have time later. You are free to do a search yourself though. Might learn something 👍
You're either mistaken or lying. I just googled it and can't find anything about that. There used to be unlimited speed roads in Australia, but from what I can find, all of them have speed limits now.
Honestly, this might be the point. It sounds like classic terrible law that sounds good to the public.
Drivers with these are going to cause so much roadrage and be a danger to other drivers because there are so few situations where driving the speed limit is reasonable. Nevermind driving the speed limit is considered suspect by cops in places.
It needs to be harder to get a driving license, and easier to loose it. Just taking away the licenses of the bottom 10% of drivers would do wonders for traffic flow and safety.
Wow seeing a lot of people against this is surprising.
First they came for the reckless drivers, and I didn't give a shit because driving is a privilege that can be revoked or limited.
I've had engineering visions from decades ago of a lot of things that have come to pass, and things that could still be realized, like: Smart Roads, driver-less cars, and wireless connectivity between cars and roads that integrate with navigation that are intended to prevent accidents, lower maximum speeds via computer controlled limiters, and lower reckless/drunk driving deaths. However, my time in Customer Service also shines light on the way these systems can be hacked or exploited to bypass the intended safety measures, and all the time I've spent around Developers and Software Engineers also tells me how hard this would be to implement and protect, so I don't ever expect them to come to fruition in my lifetime.
It's nice to dream, though...
Honestly 95% of people should not be traveling over the speed limit. With the lack of maintenance, testing to get a license, increased screen time while driving, etc
I wonder if the increase in speed-related accidents is partly because of the increasing prevalence of electric cars. Every other twat staring their phone at every intersection can now go 0-60 in 4 seconds or whatever. Someone beeps at them so they floor it straight into the back of the poor guy in front of them.
This is only for people who have already been convicted of reckless driving.
Reckless driving is a hard charge to convict someone of. Careless driving has a much lower threshold to cross than reckless, so someone accused and convicted of reckless driving shouldn't really be on the roads anyways.
This is a good step, but needs to be kept in check.
Can’t wait to get stuck behind some asshole who shouldn’t even be on the road who’s locked in at exactly the speed limit even though there are plenty of roads where the safe flow of traffic is 5-10mph higher.
Also can’t wait to get in a head on collision with the assholes who try to pass the speed-limited cars unsafely.
If someone has 2 reckless driving convictions, take their license. All this will do is make roads more hazardous for everyone else.
People on here are arguing in bad faith. This would be an option for those that have had their licenses suspended for reckless driving. Why is everyone alright with reckless driving?
I think this is a good idea in the form these laws are being implemented for people with multiple reckless driving offenses.
To be honest at that point I really don't think they should have a license to begin with, but having it as an option isn't the worst idea.
Two kinds of comments in this thread:
1.) Repeating the slippery slope fallacy without a hint of irony
2.) NOOOO I ACTUALLY NEED TO SPEED YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND SPEEDING IS ACTUALLY GOOD! GETTING MULTIPLE RECKLESS DRIVER CITATIONS DOESNT MEAN IM A BAD DRIVER!
I love this place.
One of my personal conspiracy theories is that this is gonna be standard eventually. The car will only top out at the speed limit.
Right now my car is constantly bitching about me going over the speed limit anyway.
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The first preventable injury collision that would have been prevented except for this feature will kill it. There is far too much liability for this to exist.
Eh honestly this doesn't sound awful. Although it sucks as a car enthusiast.
If you spend any time driving in Texas you know there are psychos pulling 90mph at any given road in any given time. don't nobody know how to drive down here much less stick to the speed limit. At least it would remedy one problem. The local speed limit is 35 but there is constantly cars and trucks blasting by at what looks like 60 even during higher traffic times and with a high school nearby.
Personally, I feel like that they should just lose their license, but that doesn't stop people from driving, and speeding when they're driving.
This seems like a way to at least keep bad drivers within posted speed limits, which is better than nothing.
It can be argued that people would just drive the cars that don't have these, and then lose their license, but that still a period of time where they're having to drive the posted speed limit, which is, again, better than nothing.
Seems to be no downside to this.
I have noticed a huge uptick in aggressive driving and road rage since after the covid lock down.
I think that better explains the higher amount of crashes instead of speeding....
Good, it's ridiculous that everyone drives faster than the limit. Think the limit is too low? Work through the legal system to change it. But we also need speed minimums.
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