How is Wayland the future of Linux when half the crap people need to do in business breaks so much? From clipboard usage and peripheral usage in VMs and remote desktop issues to have never been solved to Wayland not working with simple screen share for business apps like teams slack and zoom. Sure you can install the pipe wire bridge utils for Wayland but those break with a simple update which has happened to me three times this year. If that's the future of Linux then I guess Linux is dead and good freaking riddance
i can configure my graphics drawing tablet without any worries, even without it having direct support, thanks to libwacom, libinput, and the rest of Wayland's system.
I wouldn't say its better. Xorg has its issues, and its one of those things that becomes blatantly apparent when you try to do any sort of creative work
while it works for stuff like the Wacom Inuos S / M which I used to use on a daily basis, my new drawing tablet, the XP Pen 15.6 V2 is not currently supported by either OpenTabletDriver, and is therefore stuck in a permanent state of limbo whereas I cannot configure it in any feasible way to make it function for the purpose I intend on using it for.
While the XP Pen 15.6 V2 doesn't have direct support; I can't edit or modify the buttons or knobs, I can still modify it in a manner and in a way as for me to do what I want with it.
Much is the way of a much more competently designed system bruised by the mistakes of Xorg system designers who didn't have enough foresight to create a system that minimizes the external work developers and artists have to do to get to a level where as they can do their work.
As I see it, Linux needs more creative types. I might be tech savvy enough to daily drive Arch, but for a lot of people I can imagine there being a massive appeal to being able to plug in something like a drawing tablet and just having it work without any sort of hassle or software finagling, something I think Linux has gotten really good at doing in recent years. I believe Wayland is a forward push to not only having conventional peripherals like computer mice or keyboards function in this extremely plug-n-play nature, but graphical tools like drawing tablets being encompassed in that nature as well.
as far as i'm aware there's no way to configure it.
If I wanted to, say, use my XP Pen on my Steam Deck, which uses x11, the only way I'll be able to use my system as intended is by forcing it to only display on the external display
I believe you can handle that with xrandr and xinput. Run xrandr to find out the name of the monitor you want the pen to map to. Run xinput to find out your pen's name. Then use xinput to map it: xinput --map-to-output "Wacom Intuos S Pen stylus" HDMI-1
There are also a number of libinput settings you can change with xinput list-prop and xinput set-prop. You can use those commands with your pen's name or its ID.
I don't know what DE you're on. U can probably do this in the KDE settings. If you can't use the terminal for simple stuff like this, how the hell have you survived Linux?? Linux ain't for u if u don't like command line
i use kde plasma, and like i said, and on x11 i lack the capability to edit my drawing tablet settings, even with the wacom kcm installed.
On wayland its practically plug-n-play. How it should be. Don't come whining to me about complaining about not wanting to use the terminal because I'm not imagining myself as the end user, but an artist who was curious about Linux and what it can do for their workflow.
Any normal artist is going to run a linux liveboot, see no possible way to change the settings for their drawing tablet, and give up. They wouldn't know to type xrandr and use the xinput CLI. That's a ridiculous amount of things to assume an end user would inherently know to do, and that kind of situation would only happen if you have a supportive friend who knows their shit, like i do.
The gall of some linux users, man. Can't even admit to there being fundamental UI/UX issues with X11, especially regarding creative contexts where having something work first and foremost can be critical to someone's decision making.
They wouldn't know to type xrandr and use the xinput CLI.
Google is free.
The gall of some linux users, man. Can't even admit to there being fundamental UI/UX issues with X11, especially regarding creative contexts where having something work first and foremost can be critical to someone's decision making.
This is not a problem with X11. X11 is just a protocol, and X11 supports this stuff. This is not a problem with Xorg, because Xorg supports this too. It's a desktop environment problem. You could probably send ChatGPT the output of xinput list-prop and tell it to make a GUI tool for configuring this stuff. It's not hard at all but DE developers just haven't implemented this in their settings apps.
i lack the capability to edit my drawing tablet settings, even with the wacom kcm installed.
No you don't, you just don't want to. You're in for a big surprise in the future if you can't use the command line. A lot of things on Linux (updates, installing software, changing settings) work a lot better in the terminal or are only possible in the terminal. This is a Linux-wide problem.
its people like you that are why linux adoption is such an embarrassment. We need to have a focus on people-friendly software, which means a higher focus on accessibility and usability.
it literally does. Just. Not on X11. The following screenshot is me being able to configure it with Wayland in a GUI (the way you should be able to without having to worry about any cli confusion)
Yeah I'm aware of that. But it's super easy to implement for X11 as well. ChatGPT should be able to do it. The problem is not X11, but the developers of KDE.
Folks, what we need most right now is cooperation, not fighting or disagreements where one wants to be better than the other. Everyone should work for the good of the Linux community (especially Arch) and to ensure our freedom of choice.
My tutorial for installing Xlibre after a clean install of ArchLinux:
sudo pacman -S plasma-x11-session
sudo pacman -Rdd xorg-server xorg-server-common
yay -S xlibre-server-bootstrap (ignore errors and continue)
yay -S xlibre-input-libinput (ignore errors and continue)
yay -S xlibre-server (replace xlibre-server-bootstrap)
This repository is to keep your Xlibre up to date without having to compile every time a new version is released, and quickly, since pacman is the fastest package manager in the Linux world.
Thank you in advance, long live X, long live freedom! (At least Wayland was useful for something lol)
Should anyone read all those, you may notice some replies are a bit off-topic - which should be the code - and are trying turn this into a political matter - which has nothing to do with Xorg source code.
XLibre has become permanently linked with political matters, regardless of what people say. Enrico has made his political stance extremely clear and also used it as part of his reason for the fork. Saying we should ignore that is shortsighted and irresponsible. Sure, the Xorg source has no part in that. But XLibre does. It is now part of its history, and nothing can remove it.
We're going to get a lot more threads about this, because far right groups see it as a "crusade" against "woke ideologies" such as kindness, empathy, and not discriminating. That "anti-woke" now permanently taints XLibre.
I know you are very low IQ because that's all you have. Now tell me, why were they blockading merges not just from him but virtually everyone. Why were there hundreds of bug fixes not merged. Oh, you can't answer. So tell me, how many other people were actively trying to improve it. Oh, I know. Basically him and a couple other people but their efforts were never merged, never provided feedback as to what it would take to merge them, or anything of the like.
Can you give literally one example of a change that should've gone through that didn't, or are you just parroting what the xlibre people told you with no critical thought?
I have no issues with them making a fork. I love open-source exactly for this reason. Person in charge goes on a hate-filled rant, and there's nothing they can do to stop the community from going "fuck that, we're making a fork without you". I'm pointing out that politics are now inevitable whenever this specific fork gets touched because he chose to blame the reasons for the fork on stuff like "Big Tech" and "DEI".
Is it prohobited reasoning? I can't see any insult to anybody there. Mentioning bigtech/dei as reasons for fork doesn't mean hating people behind bigtech/dei, but means not liking their (as ideological concepts) influence on the development process. Still, bigtech or dei member or any other living entity can contribute to Xlibre project without any problem.
politics about presidents and COVID don't "taint" graphics software, it's an absurd thing to say. If Xlibre lasts 20 more years no one is going to care about the politics of the initial forker
Wrong. I was banned right after I've announced my fork.
From whole freedesktop.org. by Redhat operative Karol Herbst.
Of course theey also deleted the tickets with their hatespeech against me.
Dude, he was personally accusing other developers of intentionally sabotaging xorg by making its code worse citing changes made a decade ago after he was called out for making changes to xorg that don't solve any larger architectural problems.
All of his commits were unexporting functions. The xorg developers personally told him some things that could be cleaned up and he ignored them.
some right wing dog whistles in there, but nothing worth getting banned over
Why do you say "dog whistles" and not conspiracy theories? Are you conflating the right wing with conspiracies? Not saying you're wrong on that, but I think "right wing ideas are conspiratorial, therefore we need to allow conspiratorial ideas to fester for free speech purposes" isn't very sound. This guy was literally arguing with people over vaccines on the kernel mailing list, why can't he just leave his personal beliefs out of software and focus on technical arguments?
Okay, the dude is not personable. Okay, some code was bad. Okay, he believes some wacky stuff. This all seems like run of the mill standard dev drama that's happened a million times over. From all that I've seen, he didn't do anything to warrant a ban from the site. Especially after making his own darn fork and leaving the other devs alone. It's like whatever, he's over there now. But no, he got banned right after he did that...
I don't think this is so clear-cut, and if the folks at free desktop didn't want to validate what this guy was saying and give him all the attention he could have ever hoped for they should absolutely not have done what they just did.
You know what? I'm not sad this played out the way it did, though. If he wants to go over there and do XLibre, I say that's great. He can run it how he likes. He has all the attention he was ever going to get.
The other thing about this is there are still people using xorg to my knowledge. What's freebsd going to do? I'm not sure myself.
Sounds like a valid opinion if you either miss social cues or don't have all the context, after seeing what he was saying on the issue tracker I'm honestly surprised he wasn't banned sooner.
Well, if they were going to ban him, they should have done it then. Not after he started his own fork and removed himself from the situation. But that was not what happened. If it quacks like a duck...
If you want to make up timelines you can, but he had his fork BEFORE he submitted the pull requests that put him on hot ice and broke xorg randr. His excuse for his changes breaking things was literally that the changes were fine on his fork.
Even if this is so, here's where I see things are getting all conflated. First, it was the read me, now he committed bad code. And there was something about vaccines.
So far, the correct response to all this would be to go tell him to go work on your own fork, we're not merging anything else, not ban him and nuke the fork.
From the sounds of all this he still didn't do something that warranted a site ban. He was not hateful toward some individual, threaten violence, or do something malicious. Maybe his explanation was a little nutty, but maybe it was closer to the truth than what you'll ever be admitting.
No, I have concretely laid out multiple reasons that would warrant him being banned. There was no conflation, all of the things I listed are bad and all worth considering when deciding to ban someone. Would you agree when moderating there is a threshold people cross where it warrants them being banned and that's how it SHOULD be for moderation to be fair and nuanced? Would be interesting if you disagree.
correct response would he tell him to work on his own fork
Freedesktop is not obligated to host his user account on their site. They are paying to host their gitlab instance. Will you next argue reddit should have to host violent content if they don't want to? (inb4 you say these aren't the same things because you don't understand hypotheticals)
Allegedly banning users automatically deletes their repostiories after a while, he is free to continue his work on github.
didn't warrant a site ban
Says you? Freedesktop can run their site as they please. There is no reason for them to host that users account and repos, especially not if it's been decided he won't be contributing to freedesktop projects any longer.
he was not hateful toward some individual
Really? He literally was like "I don't want to point any fingers, but some of this code I'm using to deflect from my mistake was written by the people in this thread and they're getting paid by redhat to make xorg worse"
IN A THREAD WHERE HIS CHANGE BROKE THINGS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T TEST
If you don't find that unacceptable behavior I don't know what would be unacceptable, could you give an example of the minimum thing that in your mind should warrant a site ban?
threaten violence
Is that the standard for banning people? I guess if he doesn't outright threaten to swat people on the issue tracker it's not that bad.
do something malicious
Why would he have to be malicious to get banned?
closer to the truth than what you'll ever be admitting
I don't know if the sloptuber video you watched showed the whole thread (which I believe may have been deleted now) but it was abundantly clear that the metux guy displayed no humility all ego and the freedesktop people were like "yeah, you're ragging on decade old code, we know it's bad. Anyways, if you want to substantially improve the project here's a part that's super complicated and would improve performance"
He didn't remove himself from the situation. He created his fork on the server of the Foundation, while also spreading conspiracy theories and accusation against it and the other devs. That's why he was banned after the fork. Acting like this is surprising is ridiculous.
That's fair, then ask him not to work on the given project and then have the dude go work on his own fork away from the people he's bothering. The way this was handled only validated his grievances.
A different outcome was easily possible, though. If this had all been left as some argument between devs over code and arguing, but a whole fork got nuked, and now the whole thing has Streisanded.
But then again, if that had been the way it was handled, xorg actually might have died when people really didn't mean for it to do so. If Redhat was pulling more BS like they have before, it backfired spectacularly.
You don't sound like you've been involved in working open source projects. That's not how it works at all. If someone is hard to work with and also contributes bad code, then they are gonna get banned!
Look at how this same guy was chastised by Linus on the LML for being an anti-vaxer.
I wish people stopped saying that. Yes X was deigned with a distributed computing model in mind and thank god for that, there is huge market for powerful headless hardware to which you conect remotely. Connect and preferebly get something more than a shell.
different purpose than running modern accelerated desktop with multiple high resoultion monitors.
And this is why people in the wider UNIX community disalike Linux. Yoyu guys think that life didnt exist before Linux was given to us by the Gods. I was running an "accelerated desktop" in 1991 on SGI hardware. A few years later my SGI Octane had no problemmanaging two 1920x1600 high rez mintors with full OpenGL acceleration. Systems from SGI,SUN,HP,DEC had graphics workstations designbed for X server to be run on th same machine as the clients. Are you saying we were using our X wrong? That all these UNIX vendors in the hayday didnt have resources to create somethign "more suitable" to replace X? Especially SUN which had no problem first switching from OpenLook to NeWS and the to X?
And this is why people in the wider UNIX community disalike Linux.
You know, there is reason why UNIX operating systems (those that are still supported as some of them are no longer supported) have fraction of Linux marketshare despite the fact that they dominated the market until late 90's.
Yoyu guys think that life didnt exist before Linux was given to us by the Gods
You guys sometimes believe it's "my way or highway" and dislike Linux for not doing things "the UNIX way". For example systemd - some people prefer to believe in conspiracy theory that Red Hat made distributions to use it rather than accept the fact that people chose systemd because "Why would they choose something I don't like".
Are you saying we were using our X wrong?
No but you are missing pretty important point - old UNIX operating systems were not designed for typical customer. They were designed for workstations and serious work, not for playing games on your gaming PC or scrolling Reddit on your smartphone. UNIX vendors didn't need to replace X because they designed X for their needs. But again UNIX workstation is not the same type of machine as gamer PC or smartphone so it's not very surprising that things desgined for UNIX workstations might not be the best choice for gamer PC or smartphone.
I dont know much about "games" and "movies". I put away the "childish things" soon after my Bat Mitzvah. But thanks for conforming Linux is for kids now.
You see Linux was created because one poor uni stident couldnt affor to buy commercial UNIX for his 386, and all he really, really wanted was UNIX. We were really happy for the first 15 or so years when Linux was copying commercial UNIX. But then it was taken over by the freedesktop gang who did know, didnt respect or outwrite despised the UNIX way. They worshipped garbage-tier OSs like OSX/MacOS and Windows. No wonder systemd bears uncanny resemblence to winsvc.exe and Poetrring,m after strading the dumsterfire that is systemd waltzed off to work at Microsoft!
How did you come up with that take? Nobody is trying to shut down the fork.
Making fun and laughing at the fork is not "shutting it down". Everyone agrees
he can do whatever he wants with the fork. In fact, all of Xorg is relieved that
he's no longer working on Xorg.
No. They removed you for CoC violations. The repository has the full history of everything.
They should have known we already had the new infrastructure in place.
They did. Like I said:
Making fun and laughing at the fork is not "shutting it down". Everyone agrees he can do whatever he wants with the fork. In fact, all of Xorg is relieved that he's no longer working on Xorg.
I guess they mean that they got banned from freedesktop gitlab, but fails to mention that the readme of the fork was full of conspiracy theories that redhat has been purposely trying to kill xorg (even though it's the only company paying people to maintain it for decades now) and how diversity is the literal Satan.
The truth is that freedesktop doesn't owe them hosting. "You will pay to host my fork where I claim you sabotage the dead project!11 You will support me even though I broke the the terms and conducts I agreed to!!"
Ideology is a set of beliefs, you would be hard pressed not to find that in a FOSS project given that they pick either a permissive or copyleft license. Also isn't politics kinda the result of ideology?
I have an issue with devs peddling their ideological world view.
Why? If it can be done better by not including the ideology one can simply fork it. They have the freedom to accept whoever as a contributor and everybody has the freedom to fork the project if they want things done differently.
Your comment, like any mention of Xorg, is blocked on this subreddit, I can't give you an upvote, like all these posts with hundreds of comments and zero upvotes, and I think you can guess or hear who might be behind it. And this is the situation all over the Internet.
Projects do not die like this, they are simply forgotten, and here the project is being beaten with sticks from all sides, but it fights and refuses to die, in other words, it is an attempt to kill.
What are you on about? His comment is perfectly normal, what you are likely experiencing is a bug/the servers choking (happens to me constantly).
Also, no one is actively sabotaging X.Org, the devs have simply decided that it is not worth fighting an uphill battle with the enormous technical debt that has accumulated since the 80s.
Another would be to look at the guys commit history and see that all the other devs were already quite annoyed with his contributions that regularly led to breakages and regressions, and he was told several times to better test his commits. But instead of listening and collaborating with the other devs, he created a fork on the server hosted by the Freedesktop foundation and wrote a readme for it filled with conspiracy theories, baseless accusation against the Foundation and shitty political statements. And now you guy want to pretend its shocking the foundation just said "screw this", banned him and told him to take his Fork somewhere else?
Remember guys, X11 is bad because it’s old and unmaintained
No. Wrong take. X11 is maintained. In fact, it's in "maintenance mode".
And there are lots of reasons that X11 isn't good: Bad security model, the backwards
compatibility requirements and current structure make it hard to add new features without breaking old features, ....
I find the hole x11libre thing kinda hilarious and sad at the same time.
Forking x11 and making it fundamentally different from the original x11, will break everything that was previously running fine on x11, if you turn the fork into something fundamentally different from the original projects, things of course will break because they won't have support for this new fundamentally different thing, so then we will have to go into another display server transition hell where gpu vendors will have to make their drivers compatible with x11libre while also at the same time maintain compatibility for x11 and wayland, and same thing for applications.
we've already gone thru one display server transition hell, and now that we're finally close to being out of it as most things support wayland and wayland has matured a lot, please let's not create even more unnecessary fragmentation.
it's just a matter of time until things that worked perfectly fine on x11 start breaking on x11libre.
That may all be true, but it's really not a big problem. I can't see Debian, for instance, jumping on some new fork out of the blue, and breaking everything.
Anyone can fork whatever they want. We're under no obligation to adopt, volunteer, or donate. There are thousands upon thousands of free software projects I've never heard of, some of which I could probably use and many of which I probably couldn't or wouldn't. That being said, I'm doing just fine in life ignoring them.
I don't think a single person has claimed he does not have the physical ability to press the fork button, the doubts being expressed are that he has any idea what he's doing (he obviously does not, otherwise he would have just used xwayland instead of trying to fix DDX)
I would suggest that github and the like are filled with more people who are clueless than know what they're doing. :) That's the nature of free software. Anyone can try. A lot fewer can actually do.
It's just disappointing to see this sort of thing become a complete dead end, it would be cool to see a wayland display server that is "hackable" to clients and gives xwayland clients the same permissions that they get on xorg.
He is literally just going to waste his time unexporting functions from xorg forever and by the time he's done the xorg DDX drivers will be dead and he'll have to start supporting them, in which case nvidia support is fully off the table.
Well, I guess that's up to him. In the end, it's his problem if he wants to take on a project he can't handle. And, it's not like there are lots of people lining up to help him in the misguided view that he's got something viable going, by the sounds of it.
So, a lot of talk about nothing. I can have a giant rant and say I'm going to fork everything from Gnome to emacs, and even take a couple github steps. It doesn't count for much without some actual work.
The guy admittedly was probably the most prolific contributor to Xorg xserver at this point. Prolific does not mean quality, though, and his changes caused demonstrable issues, partly because he did very little actual testing - for a time, he was apparently sending patches that were only tested against his personal branch of xserver and not the main branch..
I've thought about replacing multiple userspace components in linux before but every part of linux has some arcane knowledge required to understand what's even happening, I can't even begin to pretend to understand all the different subsystems in xorg and I honestly doubt anyone working on xorg today understands every part either. If the kernel graphics people say ddx xorg is a problem, and xorg still can't use the new drm atomic api, then it's probably safe to assume there's a reason why that is that's more complicated than cleaning up private apis.
Yep, it's a bit project, and a big job. When you get to have that big of a job, yes, one person won't understand it all. For good and for bad, this isn't the 1980s any longer.
it's just a matter of time until things that worked perfectly fine on x11 start breaking on x11libre.
This is not true. XLibre is the server side implementation of the X11 protocol. The protocol itself is not getting touched in any way and neither are the clients.
What a weird title. Xorg actually was the X11 successor and hence it's future and it still is today. The architecture just became obsolete and no fork can change that. Maybe XLibre may work for some people who for whatever reason whant to stay on X but the "future" it is not.
But I think the existence of a fork makes sense because there are still a lot of systems out there that use it and will continue to use it (BSD family) + there are still a lot of unimplemented features in Wayland from Xorg, if trying to fix some things that will be useful practically - it will prolong the life of Xorg thus accumulating people around this project I guess?
I think people don't like being pressured from all sides to choose “freely” without giving them a choice pushing Wayland even to people who don't need it.
What do you mean by "doesn't work as good as on Linux"? Last time I tried it it was fine, just like on Linux. There are still issues with GNOME and KDE but that's mostly because of their dependency on systemd rather than their Wayland implementation related issues. wlroots based compositors are working fine.
As far I know OpenBSD didn't really fork Xorg but they have their own build system for it and their fork follows Xorg. Aside from that despite what this guy claims it's not like Xorg is abandoned. It is still maintained and nobody is trying to block it.
wlroots has always worked there since the earliest days, yes, I'm talking about deeper quality support for Wayland, which is not there, as you said
Then why this unreasonable blocking? Why was this fuss made, what's the purpose, I'm not sure, but as far as I know, official support from Red Hat has almost stopped
We're not talking about political decisions that allowed RedHat to sponsor desktops to motivate them to use Wayland.
X.org knows that it is in the same position as xfree86 was, when it got forked.
So they peoactively sabotage any attempts of forking X.org and at the same time block any meaningful development of their own X11 codebase, that does not benefit Wayland.
X11 is a network protocol. The current version is X117.7, which was released in 2012.
X.org is a project to maintain and develop the X.org Server. Which has become the defacto standard implementation for X11.
X.org project and server was forked from XFree86 project. Which was the original open source X11 implementation developed for x86 computers.
X11, software wise, is divided up into two parts: DIX and DDX.
DIX is "device Independent X". That is the part that X Clients (Applications that use X) use for writing out to the X11 protocol. It is the client libraries and other parts not directly tied to hardware.
DDX is "Device Dependent X". This is the X Server and related components. It is the part that has device drivers, handles output in the form of display output and input in the form of keyboard and mouse inputs. Among other things.
X.org X Server project maintains a number of DDX.
There is "xquartz" for OS X. There is "xnest" for running X inside of another X session. There is "xwin" X Server for Microsoft Windows, etc.
The point being that you don't need a standalone X Server for displaying X Clients (X applications) anymore then you need a standalone web browser for displaying HTML pages.
HTTP + HTML is roughly equivalent to X11 in terms of protocol. X Clients are equivalent to Web servers and X Server is equivalent to your Web Browser.
xfree86 is the DDX that is the "standalone" server used by Linux and BSD systems.
xwayland is the DDX for Wayland.
In terms of active development:
xwayland is being actively developed.
DIX is being actively maintained.
xfree86 is in maintenance mode.
X.org is now part of Freedesktop.org. Wayland is also a freedesktop.org project.
The people who are actively maintaining X.org are Wayland developers.
Largely because Wayland was created by X.org developers to replace X11.
They could of avoided some of this confusion by calling Wayland X13. But that would of just created more confusion in other ways.
It would not be wrong to call Wayland "Current Generation X Windows". Because that is what it pretty much is.
HTTP + HTML is roughly equivalent to X11 in terms of protocol. X Clients are equivalent to Web servers and X Server is equivalent to your Web Browser.
Usually the programs that "connects to" are called clients, while the programs that wait for connections and handle requests are the "servers". According to this point of view, Xclock is an (X) client while Xorg is an (X) server.
That isn't how the terminology for X11 works, though.
X Server is what runs local and renders the application output. X Clients are your applications that run locally or remotely and send their data to your X Server.
Barafu@reddit
Xlibre may be the future of X11, but it clearly will not be a future of Linux. Among other problems, it is 12 years too late.
Plus-Ad5464@reddit
How is Wayland the future of Linux when half the crap people need to do in business breaks so much? From clipboard usage and peripheral usage in VMs and remote desktop issues to have never been solved to Wayland not working with simple screen share for business apps like teams slack and zoom. Sure you can install the pipe wire bridge utils for Wayland but those break with a simple update which has happened to me three times this year. If that's the future of Linux then I guess Linux is dead and good freaking riddance
Barafu@reddit
People are searching for solutions for these issues, but noone is going back to X over it.
Plus-Ad5464@reddit
Well me and a bunch of other people I know went back to X since it works unlike Wayland
metux-its@reddit
X11 wasn't designed for Linux. The Linux community just picked it because it was already there and just working
BlueCannonBall@reddit
I don't think it's too late, Xorg is still better than Wayland in many ways.
ioletsgo@reddit
i can configure my graphics drawing tablet without any worries, even without it having direct support, thanks to libwacom, libinput, and the rest of Wayland's system.
I wouldn't say its better. Xorg has its issues, and its one of those things that becomes blatantly apparent when you try to do any sort of creative work
BlueCannonBall@reddit
Is there something you can do on Wayland that you can't do with xsetwacom or xinput? libinput is used on Xorg too btw.
ioletsgo@reddit
while it works for stuff like the Wacom Inuos S / M which I used to use on a daily basis, my new drawing tablet, the XP Pen 15.6 V2 is not currently supported by either OpenTabletDriver, and is therefore stuck in a permanent state of limbo whereas I cannot configure it in any feasible way to make it function for the purpose I intend on using it for.
While the XP Pen 15.6 V2 doesn't have direct support; I can't edit or modify the buttons or knobs, I can still modify it in a manner and in a way as for me to do what I want with it.
Much is the way of a much more competently designed system bruised by the mistakes of Xorg system designers who didn't have enough foresight to create a system that minimizes the external work developers and artists have to do to get to a level where as they can do their work.
As I see it, Linux needs more creative types. I might be tech savvy enough to daily drive Arch, but for a lot of people I can imagine there being a massive appeal to being able to plug in something like a drawing tablet and just having it work without any sort of hassle or software finagling, something I think Linux has gotten really good at doing in recent years. I believe Wayland is a forward push to not only having conventional peripherals like computer mice or keyboards function in this extremely plug-n-play nature, but graphical tools like drawing tablets being encompassed in that nature as well.
BlueCannonBall@reddit
Can't the libinput driver handle pens on Xorg though? That should work out of the box iirc.
ioletsgo@reddit
as far as i'm aware there's no way to configure it.
If I wanted to, say, use my XP Pen on my Steam Deck, which uses x11, the only way I'll be able to use my system as intended is by forcing it to only display on the external display
BlueCannonBall@reddit
I believe you can handle that with xrandr and xinput. Run
xrandrto find out the name of the monitor you want the pen to map to. Runxinputto find out your pen's name. Then use xinput to map it:xinput --map-to-output "Wacom Intuos S Pen stylus" HDMI-1There are also a number of libinput settings you can change with
xinput list-propandxinput set-prop. You can use those commands with your pen's name or its ID.ioletsgo@reddit
ain't no artist gonna do that bruh
BlueCannonBall@reddit
I don't know what DE you're on. U can probably do this in the KDE settings. If you can't use the terminal for simple stuff like this, how the hell have you survived Linux?? Linux ain't for u if u don't like command line
ioletsgo@reddit
i use kde plasma, and like i said, and on x11 i lack the capability to edit my drawing tablet settings, even with the wacom kcm installed.
On wayland its practically plug-n-play. How it should be. Don't come whining to me about complaining about not wanting to use the terminal because I'm not imagining myself as the end user, but an artist who was curious about Linux and what it can do for their workflow.
Any normal artist is going to run a linux liveboot, see no possible way to change the settings for their drawing tablet, and give up. They wouldn't know to type xrandr and use the xinput CLI. That's a ridiculous amount of things to assume an end user would inherently know to do, and that kind of situation would only happen if you have a supportive friend who knows their shit, like i do.
The gall of some linux users, man. Can't even admit to there being fundamental UI/UX issues with X11, especially regarding creative contexts where having something work first and foremost can be critical to someone's decision making.
BlueCannonBall@reddit
Google is free.
This is not a problem with X11. X11 is just a protocol, and X11 supports this stuff. This is not a problem with Xorg, because Xorg supports this too. It's a desktop environment problem. You could probably send ChatGPT the output of
xinput list-propand tell it to make a GUI tool for configuring this stuff. It's not hard at all but DE developers just haven't implemented this in their settings apps.No you don't, you just don't want to. You're in for a big surprise in the future if you can't use the command line. A lot of things on Linux (updates, installing software, changing settings) work a lot better in the terminal or are only possible in the terminal. This is a Linux-wide problem.
ioletsgo@reddit
its people like you that are why linux adoption is such an embarrassment. We need to have a focus on people-friendly software, which means a higher focus on accessibility and usability.
BlueCannonBall@reddit
How is it my fault for having a realistic view of Linux? Is it also my fault that KDE doesn't have a way to configure pens in its GUI?
ioletsgo@reddit
it literally does. Just. Not on X11. The following screenshot is me being able to configure it with Wayland in a GUI (the way you should be able to without having to worry about any cli confusion)
https://imgur.com/a/lgO98Hh
BlueCannonBall@reddit
Yeah I'm aware of that. But it's super easy to implement for X11 as well. ChatGPT should be able to do it. The problem is not X11, but the developers of KDE.
Barafu@reddit
I can't name "many" ways anymore. Niche cases, yes. Wayland still has a clear path for improvement.
HyperFurious@reddit
Nothing is the future if Linux. People that need X11 still support X11, and people that like wayland without issues will use wayland.
nightsidedvo@reddit
Folks, what we need most right now is cooperation, not fighting or disagreements where one wants to be better than the other. Everyone should work for the good of the Linux community (especially Arch) and to ensure our freedom of choice.
My tutorial for installing Xlibre after a clean install of ArchLinux:
sudo pacman -S plasma-x11-session
sudo pacman -Rdd xorg-server xorg-server-common
yay -S xlibre-server-bootstrap (ignore errors and continue)
yay -S xlibre-input-libinput (ignore errors and continue)
yay -S xlibre-server (replace xlibre-server-bootstrap)
kate /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/xlibre.conf
Section "ServerFlags" Option "IgnoreABI" "true" EndSection
https://ibb.co/RGwMC5m9
sudo pacman-key --recv-keys 73580DE2EDDFA6D6 && sudo pacman-key --finger 73580DE2EDDFA6D6 && sudo pacman-key --lsign-key 73580DE2EDDFA6D6
kate /etc/pacman.conf
[xlibre] Server = https://github.com/X11Libre/binpkg-arch-based/raw/refs/heads/main/
This repository is to keep your Xlibre up to date without having to compile every time a new version is released, and quickly, since pacman is the fastest package manager in the Linux world.
Thank you in advance, long live X, long live freedom! (At least Wayland was useful for something lol)
https://ibb.co/3m1tGydb
LuskaFLL@reddit
Thank you very much, this surely saved me a lot of hassle
krumpfwylg@reddit
How many threads are we gonna get ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1l7g4nw/im_considering_temporarily_migrating_to_x_out_of/
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/1l9da72/xorg_is_alive/
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1l9qbu0/x11_xlibre_and_the_schism_at_the_heart_of_open/
Should anyone read all those, you may notice some replies are a bit off-topic - which should be the code - and are trying turn this into a political matter - which has nothing to do with Xorg source code.
crazy_penguin86@reddit
XLibre has become permanently linked with political matters, regardless of what people say. Enrico has made his political stance extremely clear and also used it as part of his reason for the fork. Saying we should ignore that is shortsighted and irresponsible. Sure, the Xorg source has no part in that. But XLibre does. It is now part of its history, and nothing can remove it.
We're going to get a lot more threads about this, because far right groups see it as a "crusade" against "woke ideologies" such as kindness, empathy, and not discriminating. That "anti-woke" now permanently taints XLibre.
spaceraverdk@reddit
Who cares tbh?
If Enrico wants to dev a fork, let him.
I don't have any use for xlibre, but open source means anyone can fork and maintain the fork.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
he isn't developing anything though that's why it's funny, go check his commits.
Capital-Customer6498@reddit
He was the most active X11 contributor. He has done tons.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
He has the most commits, that means he did the most!
glorious2343@reddit
A few months before metux forked it people didn't even believe he was putting in commits when he showed up to this bizarre sub
Capital-Customer6498@reddit
I know you are very low IQ because that's all you have. Now tell me, why were they blockading merges not just from him but virtually everyone. Why were there hundreds of bug fixes not merged. Oh, you can't answer. So tell me, how many other people were actively trying to improve it. Oh, I know. Basically him and a couple other people but their efforts were never merged, never provided feedback as to what it would take to merge them, or anything of the like.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
Can you give literally one example of a change that should've gone through that didn't, or are you just parroting what the xlibre people told you with no critical thought?
crazy_penguin86@reddit
I have no issues with them making a fork. I love open-source exactly for this reason. Person in charge goes on a hate-filled rant, and there's nothing they can do to stop the community from going "fuck that, we're making a fork without you". I'm pointing out that politics are now inevitable whenever this specific fork gets touched because he chose to blame the reasons for the fork on stuff like "Big Tech" and "DEI".
ConsistentCat4353@reddit
Is it prohobited reasoning? I can't see any insult to anybody there. Mentioning bigtech/dei as reasons for fork doesn't mean hating people behind bigtech/dei, but means not liking their (as ideological concepts) influence on the development process. Still, bigtech or dei member or any other living entity can contribute to Xlibre project without any problem.
glorious2343@reddit
politics about presidents and COVID don't "taint" graphics software, it's an absurd thing to say. If Xlibre lasts 20 more years no one is going to care about the politics of the initial forker
ComprehensiveHawk5@reddit
Remember guys, X11 is bad because it’s old and unmaintained Also if someone tries to show up and maintain it we’re going to remove them
nightblackdragon@reddit
X11 is "bad" because it was designed in the 80's for different purpose than running modern accelerated desktop with multiple high resoultion monitors.
Nobody is trying to remove it.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
So now one got banned for forking the project? This isn't what I heard.
nightblackdragon@reddit
That's right, no one got banned for forking the project because he wasn't banned just for forking the project.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
So what happened? Why did he get banned? I've read the readme. Some some right wing dog whistles in there, but nothing worth getting banned over.
metux-its@reddit
Wrong. I was banned right after I've announced my fork. From whole freedesktop.org. by Redhat operative Karol Herbst. Of course theey also deleted the tickets with their hatespeech against me.
diffident55@reddit
You might want to read your last sentence. Slim chance, but maybe you'll realize that buzzword lingo doesn't work.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
Dude, he was personally accusing other developers of intentionally sabotaging xorg by making its code worse citing changes made a decade ago after he was called out for making changes to xorg that don't solve any larger architectural problems.
All of his commits were unexporting functions. The xorg developers personally told him some things that could be cleaned up and he ignored them.
Why do you say "dog whistles" and not conspiracy theories? Are you conflating the right wing with conspiracies? Not saying you're wrong on that, but I think "right wing ideas are conspiratorial, therefore we need to allow conspiratorial ideas to fester for free speech purposes" isn't very sound. This guy was literally arguing with people over vaccines on the kernel mailing list, why can't he just leave his personal beliefs out of software and focus on technical arguments?
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
I do think Brodie sums up the situation well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCU4W5Ab33c
Okay, the dude is not personable. Okay, some code was bad. Okay, he believes some wacky stuff. This all seems like run of the mill standard dev drama that's happened a million times over. From all that I've seen, he didn't do anything to warrant a ban from the site. Especially after making his own darn fork and leaving the other devs alone. It's like whatever, he's over there now. But no, he got banned right after he did that...
I don't think this is so clear-cut, and if the folks at free desktop didn't want to validate what this guy was saying and give him all the attention he could have ever hoped for they should absolutely not have done what they just did.
You know what? I'm not sad this played out the way it did, though. If he wants to go over there and do XLibre, I say that's great. He can run it how he likes. He has all the attention he was ever going to get.
The other thing about this is there are still people using xorg to my knowledge. What's freebsd going to do? I'm not sure myself.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
Sounds like a valid opinion if you either miss social cues or don't have all the context, after seeing what he was saying on the issue tracker I'm honestly surprised he wasn't banned sooner.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
Well, if they were going to ban him, they should have done it then. Not after he started his own fork and removed himself from the situation. But that was not what happened. If it quacks like a duck...
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
If you want to make up timelines you can, but he had his fork BEFORE he submitted the pull requests that put him on hot ice and broke xorg randr. His excuse for his changes breaking things was literally that the changes were fine on his fork.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
Even if this is so, here's where I see things are getting all conflated. First, it was the read me, now he committed bad code. And there was something about vaccines.
So far, the correct response to all this would be to go tell him to go work on your own fork, we're not merging anything else, not ban him and nuke the fork.
From the sounds of all this he still didn't do something that warranted a site ban. He was not hateful toward some individual, threaten violence, or do something malicious. Maybe his explanation was a little nutty, but maybe it was closer to the truth than what you'll ever be admitting.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
No, I have concretely laid out multiple reasons that would warrant him being banned. There was no conflation, all of the things I listed are bad and all worth considering when deciding to ban someone. Would you agree when moderating there is a threshold people cross where it warrants them being banned and that's how it SHOULD be for moderation to be fair and nuanced? Would be interesting if you disagree.
Freedesktop is not obligated to host his user account on their site. They are paying to host their gitlab instance. Will you next argue reddit should have to host violent content if they don't want to? (inb4 you say these aren't the same things because you don't understand hypotheticals)
Allegedly banning users automatically deletes their repostiories after a while, he is free to continue his work on github.
Says you? Freedesktop can run their site as they please. There is no reason for them to host that users account and repos, especially not if it's been decided he won't be contributing to freedesktop projects any longer.
Really? He literally was like "I don't want to point any fingers, but some of this code I'm using to deflect from my mistake was written by the people in this thread and they're getting paid by redhat to make xorg worse"
IN A THREAD WHERE HIS CHANGE BROKE THINGS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T TEST
If you don't find that unacceptable behavior I don't know what would be unacceptable, could you give an example of the minimum thing that in your mind should warrant a site ban?
Is that the standard for banning people? I guess if he doesn't outright threaten to swat people on the issue tracker it's not that bad.
Why would he have to be malicious to get banned?
I don't know if the sloptuber video you watched showed the whole thread (which I believe may have been deleted now) but it was abundantly clear that the metux guy displayed no humility all ego and the freedesktop people were like "yeah, you're ragging on decade old code, we know it's bad. Anyways, if you want to substantially improve the project here's a part that's super complicated and would improve performance"
metux-its@reddit
Sure, but so they also made clear they not in the interest of free desktop software, but instead just Redhat/IBM's corporate interest.
Any decent chess player can see the fork situation here. They had the choice which figure to loose. And they chose to loose the more valuable one.
who decided it on which basis ? The Redhat Inquisition (Karol Herbst et al) ?
Jegahan@reddit
He didn't remove himself from the situation. He created his fork on the server of the Foundation, while also spreading conspiracy theories and accusation against it and the other devs. That's why he was banned after the fork. Acting like this is surprising is ridiculous.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
These are both valid reasons to ban people from your project and always have been.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
That's fair, then ask him not to work on the given project and then have the dude go work on his own fork away from the people he's bothering. The way this was handled only validated his grievances.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It was too late for that. He was already pissing people off before he got banned.
Sorry, but his greivances were going to be validated by them not accepting his work and attitude.
The_IT_Dude_@reddit
A different outcome was easily possible, though. If this had all been left as some argument between devs over code and arguing, but a whole fork got nuked, and now the whole thing has Streisanded.
But then again, if that had been the way it was handled, xorg actually might have died when people really didn't mean for it to do so. If Redhat was pulling more BS like they have before, it backfired spectacularly.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
You don't sound like you've been involved in working open source projects. That's not how it works at all. If someone is hard to work with and also contributes bad code, then they are gonna get banned!
Look at how this same guy was chastised by Linus on the LML for being an anti-vaxer.
Open source projects are never just about "code".
ReservoirPenguin@reddit
I wish people stopped saying that. Yes X was deigned with a distributed computing model in mind and thank god for that, there is huge market for powerful headless hardware to which you conect remotely. Connect and preferebly get something more than a shell.
And this is why people in the wider UNIX community disalike Linux. Yoyu guys think that life didnt exist before Linux was given to us by the Gods. I was running an "accelerated desktop" in 1991 on SGI hardware. A few years later my SGI Octane had no problemmanaging two 1920x1600 high rez mintors with full OpenGL acceleration. Systems from SGI,SUN,HP,DEC had graphics workstations designbed for X server to be run on th same machine as the clients. Are you saying we were using our X wrong? That all these UNIX vendors in the hayday didnt have resources to create somethign "more suitable" to replace X? Especially SUN which had no problem first switching from OpenLook to NeWS and the to X?
nightblackdragon@reddit
You know, there is reason why UNIX operating systems (those that are still supported as some of them are no longer supported) have fraction of Linux marketshare despite the fact that they dominated the market until late 90's.
You guys sometimes believe it's "my way or highway" and dislike Linux for not doing things "the UNIX way". For example systemd - some people prefer to believe in conspiracy theory that Red Hat made distributions to use it rather than accept the fact that people chose systemd because "Why would they choose something I don't like".
No but you are missing pretty important point - old UNIX operating systems were not designed for typical customer. They were designed for workstations and serious work, not for playing games on your gaming PC or scrolling Reddit on your smartphone. UNIX vendors didn't need to replace X because they designed X for their needs. But again UNIX workstation is not the same type of machine as gamer PC or smartphone so it's not very surprising that things desgined for UNIX workstations might not be the best choice for gamer PC or smartphone.
ReservoirPenguin@reddit
I dont know much about "games" and "movies". I put away the "childish things" soon after my Bat Mitzvah. But thanks for conforming Linux is for kids now.
You see Linux was created because one poor uni stident couldnt affor to buy commercial UNIX for his 386, and all he really, really wanted was UNIX. We were really happy for the first 15 or so years when Linux was copying commercial UNIX. But then it was taken over by the freedesktop gang who did know, didnt respect or outwrite despised the UNIX way. They worshipped garbage-tier OSs like OSX/MacOS and Windows. No wonder systemd bears uncanny resemblence to winsvc.exe and Poetrring,m after strading the dumsterfire that is systemd waltzed off to work at Microsoft!
spaceraverdk@reddit
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
He forked it and they want to shut the fork down afaik.
Why? Let the guy run his fork as he wants to.
mrtruthiness@reddit
How did you come up with that take? Nobody is trying to shut down the fork.
Making fun and laughing at the fork is not "shutting it down". Everyone agrees he can do whatever he wants with the fork. In fact, all of Xorg is relieved that he's no longer working on Xorg.
metux-its@reddit
They tried to kill it. They removed all my work from freedesktop.org.
They should have known we already had the new infrastructure in place.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Nobody tried anything.
No. They removed you for CoC violations. The repository has the full history of everything.
They did. Like I said:
Traditional_Hat3506@reddit
I guess they mean that they got banned from freedesktop gitlab, but fails to mention that the readme of the fork was full of conspiracy theories that redhat has been purposely trying to kill xorg (even though it's the only company paying people to maintain it for decades now) and how diversity is the literal Satan.
The truth is that freedesktop doesn't owe them hosting. "You will pay to host my fork where I claim you sabotage the dead project!11 You will support me even though I broke the the terms and conducts I agreed to!!"
spaceraverdk@reddit
Eh, I read the cliff notes only, guy forking got banned, his fork repo deleted, read the github readme, questioned why.
Couldn't care less about his reasons for forking if it's political.
Foss should be free of political agenda, no matter what stance is pushed.
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
FOSS is inherently political. The idea that software should actually be owned by the people is political.
spaceraverdk@reddit
Let me rephrase it then.
Foss should be free of ideology, I frankly don't give a rats whether the development is done by far right, far left or centred people.
I have an issue with devs peddling their ideological world view.
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
Ideology is a set of beliefs, you would be hard pressed not to find that in a FOSS project given that they pick either a permissive or copyleft license. Also isn't politics kinda the result of ideology?
Why? If it can be done better by not including the ideology one can simply fork it. They have the freedom to accept whoever as a contributor and everybody has the freedom to fork the project if they want things done differently.
spaceraverdk@reddit
And we are back to topic. He forked x11, because he has a different vision for it.
If he wants to continue x11, let him.
I have no use of x11.
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
Did I at any point say something to the contrary?
spaceraverdk@reddit
Never said you did.
lonelyroom-eklaghor@reddit
Ideology should not necessarily be political.
That's it.
Case closed.
RoryYamm@reddit
Then that should be the start and the end of any politics. We want to own our own software. Anything outside of that should be irrelevant.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
facepalm.gif
Zip_Archive@reddit
Your comment, like any mention of Xorg, is blocked on this subreddit, I can't give you an upvote, like all these posts with hundreds of comments and zero upvotes, and I think you can guess or hear who might be behind it. And this is the situation all over the Internet.
Projects do not die like this, they are simply forgotten, and here the project is being beaten with sticks from all sides, but it fights and refuses to die, in other words, it is an attempt to kill.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
What are you on about? His comment is perfectly normal, what you are likely experiencing is a bug/the servers choking (happens to me constantly).
Also, no one is actively sabotaging X.Org, the devs have simply decided that it is not worth fighting an uphill battle with the enormous technical debt that has accumulated since the 80s.
Zip_Archive@reddit
In this particular thread, you can't upvote those who talk in support of X11, they can be only downvoted.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
This is blatantly untrue, I have tested it on multiple comments and it worked fine.
Again, Reddit does sometimes bug out like that.
Jegahan@reddit
Lol, that one way of describing it.
Another would be to look at the guys commit history and see that all the other devs were already quite annoyed with his contributions that regularly led to breakages and regressions, and he was told several times to better test his commits. But instead of listening and collaborating with the other devs, he created a fork on the server hosted by the Freedesktop foundation and wrote a readme for it filled with conspiracy theories, baseless accusation against the Foundation and shitty political statements. And now you guy want to pretend its shocking the foundation just said "screw this", banned him and told him to take his Fork somewhere else?
Don't make me laugh.
mrtruthiness@reddit
No. Wrong take. X11 is maintained. In fact, it's in "maintenance mode".
And there are lots of reasons that X11 isn't good: Bad security model, the backwards compatibility requirements and current structure make it hard to add new features without breaking old features, ....
Wonderful_Turnip8556@reddit
I find the hole x11libre thing kinda hilarious and sad at the same time.
Forking x11 and making it fundamentally different from the original x11, will break everything that was previously running fine on x11, if you turn the fork into something fundamentally different from the original projects, things of course will break because they won't have support for this new fundamentally different thing, so then we will have to go into another display server transition hell where gpu vendors will have to make their drivers compatible with x11libre while also at the same time maintain compatibility for x11 and wayland, and same thing for applications.
we've already gone thru one display server transition hell, and now that we're finally close to being out of it as most things support wayland and wayland has matured a lot, please let's not create even more unnecessary fragmentation.
it's just a matter of time until things that worked perfectly fine on x11 start breaking on x11libre.
jr735@reddit
That may all be true, but it's really not a big problem. I can't see Debian, for instance, jumping on some new fork out of the blue, and breaking everything.
Anyone can fork whatever they want. We're under no obligation to adopt, volunteer, or donate. There are thousands upon thousands of free software projects I've never heard of, some of which I could probably use and many of which I probably couldn't or wouldn't. That being said, I'm doing just fine in life ignoring them.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
I don't think a single person has claimed he does not have the physical ability to press the fork button, the doubts being expressed are that he has any idea what he's doing (he obviously does not, otherwise he would have just used xwayland instead of trying to fix DDX)
metux-its@reddit
Please read your last sentence again. Maybe you'll recognize why buzzword bingo doesnt work.
jr735@reddit
I would suggest that github and the like are filled with more people who are clueless than know what they're doing. :) That's the nature of free software. Anyone can try. A lot fewer can actually do.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
It's just disappointing to see this sort of thing become a complete dead end, it would be cool to see a wayland display server that is "hackable" to clients and gives xwayland clients the same permissions that they get on xorg.
He is literally just going to waste his time unexporting functions from xorg forever and by the time he's done the xorg DDX drivers will be dead and he'll have to start supporting them, in which case nvidia support is fully off the table.
jr735@reddit
Well, I guess that's up to him. In the end, it's his problem if he wants to take on a project he can't handle. And, it's not like there are lots of people lining up to help him in the misguided view that he's got something viable going, by the sounds of it.
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
I've seen like 2 people and no code
jr735@reddit
So, a lot of talk about nothing. I can have a giant rant and say I'm going to fork everything from Gnome to emacs, and even take a couple github steps. It doesn't count for much without some actual work.
bubblegumpuma@reddit
The guy admittedly was probably the most prolific contributor to Xorg xserver at this point. Prolific does not mean quality, though, and his changes caused demonstrable issues, partly because he did very little actual testing - for a time, he was apparently sending patches that were only tested against his personal branch of xserver and not the main branch..
AyimaPetalFlower@reddit
I've thought about replacing multiple userspace components in linux before but every part of linux has some arcane knowledge required to understand what's even happening, I can't even begin to pretend to understand all the different subsystems in xorg and I honestly doubt anyone working on xorg today understands every part either. If the kernel graphics people say ddx xorg is a problem, and xorg still can't use the new drm atomic api, then it's probably safe to assume there's a reason why that is that's more complicated than cleaning up private apis.
jr735@reddit
Yep, it's a bit project, and a big job. When you get to have that big of a job, yes, one person won't understand it all. For good and for bad, this isn't the 1980s any longer.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
you could mess with Mir or Arcan.
metux-its@reddit
Why exactly?
xlibre-mythbuster@reddit
This is not true. XLibre is the server side implementation of the X11 protocol. The protocol itself is not getting touched in any way and neither are the clients.
Quoting https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/wiki/Compatibility-of-XLibre:
Creepy-Morning-4512@reddit
"original X11".. that is not xorg. Xorg is a fork of Xfree86. The movement from Xfree86 to Xorg was rather quick and not terribly painful.
casparne@reddit
What a weird title. Xorg actually was the X11 successor and hence it's future and it still is today. The architecture just became obsolete and no fork can change that. Maybe XLibre may work for some people who for whatever reason whant to stay on X but the "future" it is not.
YouRock96@reddit
But I think the existence of a fork makes sense because there are still a lot of systems out there that use it and will continue to use it (BSD family) + there are still a lot of unimplemented features in Wayland from Xorg, if trying to fix some things that will be useful practically - it will prolong the life of Xorg thus accumulating people around this project I guess?
I think people don't like being pressured from all sides to choose “freely” without giving them a choice pushing Wayland even to people who don't need it.
necrophcodr@reddit
Xorg is still being developed and maintained, everyone just moved to Wayland. You can still contribute to Xorg.
Darkhog@reddit
You can, but even if you manage to get some MRs in, they will be reverted.
metux-its@reddit
Exactly. Redhat doesn't tolerate any substantial new work on Xorg. Thats why we forked.
nightblackdragon@reddit
They started adopting Wayland as well. On FreeBSD you can run Wayland desktop just fine even on NVIDIA GPU.
YouRock96@reddit
Yes but so far it doesn't work there as well + most of the community chooses X, not to mention that OpenBSD have their fork as well
nightblackdragon@reddit
What do you mean by "doesn't work as good as on Linux"? Last time I tried it it was fine, just like on Linux. There are still issues with GNOME and KDE but that's mostly because of their dependency on systemd rather than their Wayland implementation related issues. wlroots based compositors are working fine.
As far I know OpenBSD didn't really fork Xorg but they have their own build system for it and their fork follows Xorg. Aside from that despite what this guy claims it's not like Xorg is abandoned. It is still maintained and nobody is trying to block it.
YouRock96@reddit
wlroots has always worked there since the earliest days, yes, I'm talking about deeper quality support for Wayland, which is not there, as you said
Then why this unreasonable blocking? Why was this fuss made, what's the purpose, I'm not sure, but as far as I know, official support from Red Hat has almost stopped
We're not talking about political decisions that allowed RedHat to sponsor desktops to motivate them to use Wayland.
sheeproomer@reddit
X.org knows that it is in the same position as xfree86 was, when it got forked.
So they peoactively sabotage any attempts of forking X.org and at the same time block any meaningful development of their own X11 codebase, that does not benefit Wayland.
YouRock96@reddit
Yes, this is the case when the freedom of some leads to the restriction of the freedom of others.
natermer@reddit
There seems to be a strange mixup of terms here.
X11 is a network protocol. The current version is X117.7, which was released in 2012.
X.org is a project to maintain and develop the X.org Server. Which has become the defacto standard implementation for X11.
X.org project and server was forked from XFree86 project. Which was the original open source X11 implementation developed for x86 computers.
X11, software wise, is divided up into two parts: DIX and DDX.
DIX is "device Independent X". That is the part that X Clients (Applications that use X) use for writing out to the X11 protocol. It is the client libraries and other parts not directly tied to hardware.
DDX is "Device Dependent X". This is the X Server and related components. It is the part that has device drivers, handles output in the form of display output and input in the form of keyboard and mouse inputs. Among other things.
X.org X Server project maintains a number of DDX.
There is "xquartz" for OS X. There is "xnest" for running X inside of another X session. There is "xwin" X Server for Microsoft Windows, etc.
The point being that you don't need a standalone X Server for displaying X Clients (X applications) anymore then you need a standalone web browser for displaying HTML pages.
HTTP + HTML is roughly equivalent to X11 in terms of protocol. X Clients are equivalent to Web servers and X Server is equivalent to your Web Browser.
xfree86 is the DDX that is the "standalone" server used by Linux and BSD systems.
xwayland is the DDX for Wayland.
In terms of active development:
xwayland is being actively developed.
DIX is being actively maintained.
xfree86 is in maintenance mode.
X.org is now part of Freedesktop.org. Wayland is also a freedesktop.org project.
The people who are actively maintaining X.org are Wayland developers.
Largely because Wayland was created by X.org developers to replace X11.
They could of avoided some of this confusion by calling Wayland X13. But that would of just created more confusion in other ways.
It would not be wrong to call Wayland "Current Generation X Windows". Because that is what it pretty much is.
astrobe@reddit
Usually the programs that "connects to" are called clients, while the programs that wait for connections and handle requests are the "servers". According to this point of view, Xclock is an (X) client while Xorg is an (X) server.
natermer@reddit
That isn't how the terminology for X11 works, though.
X Server is what runs local and renders the application output. X Clients are your applications that run locally or remotely and send their data to your X Server.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
Xorg is a fork of xfree86, a specific x11 implementation. It is not an x11 successor.
casparne@reddit
Yes and no. The Xorg foundation defines the standards for the X Window System protocols.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
IN this context we are referring to the implementation and not the organization.. From context that should be very very very clear.
Connect_Bandicoot251@reddit
FUCK WAYLAND. All hail Xlibre
GetIntoGameDev@reddit
🙅♂️
DistributionRight261@reddit
X11 makes my laptop hot, while with Wayland is cold
Sudden-Lingonberry-8@reddit
same but in reverse
Userwerd@reddit
Was xorg a fork of x11?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
xorg is a fork of xfree86 a specific x11 implementation.
xorg and xfree86 are not the only implementations of x11.
Userwerd@reddit
Thanks
jalmito@reddit
Don’t advertise your crappy YouTube channels here.
whoops_not_a_mistake@reddit
The project is a fkin dumpster fire already.
04_996_C2@reddit
I don't know what the video is about but I'm here for yet another greasy-haired, neck-beard YouTube thumbnail!
sns8447@reddit
Oh boy! This shit again!