Military to airlines - what was “competitive” before COVID

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Odominable@reddit

OP I’m hitching my wagon here as well with a pile-on - Another single engine fighter dude here, sitting at 2200 total. However I was a mid career transition guy, so roughly 1500 of that is in helos. I’ll retire with anywhere from 2700-3000 TT depending on what my last set of orders ends up looking like, with about 700-1k of that as TPIC. Is it worth padding my FW time with some GA on the side?

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah, wish I knew if it was worth paying for a masters versus however many hours that would be in a Cessna would be better. Congrats on the swap. That was a hell of a change.

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Odominable@reddit

Thanks, it’s been a wild (and very cool) ride, I’ve lived a charmed life. But I’m down to my final 5 PFTs so trying to future plan a bit

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hartzonfire@reddit

How did that come about? Did you just decide at one point that the Viper wasn’t scratching the itch anymore? I’m sure the F-35 is a competitive platform to get into. Very cool!

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Odominable@reddit

Every year there’s a transition board for mid-career aviators to help equalize manning levels across communities (C130s are always an option, for example, because their dudes are so competitive for airlines) - for a few years they were taking H-1 dudes like yours truly into fighters. Thought it would be cool, applied for it and was selected

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caMV-35S@reddit

I'm in primary right now and leaning rotary for a chance at skids. Would you still go cobras if you could go back or try and get jets right from the start?

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Odominable@reddit

Oh great question dude. I did not leave skids because I didn’t like it, I LOVED flying Cobras. But it was a cool and unique opportunity that I couldn’t pass up. They’re both solid options, but I’d lean towards jets if I was you. You’ll be in a far more tactically relevant platform for the coming years. But don’t sweat it if you end up as a helo guy. Skids in particular are as close to pure aviation as you can get - all VFR, doing whatever you want (within reason) in restricted areas, and getting really freaking good at one main mission (CAS). Good luck with the rest of Primary! You’ll end up loving whatever you fly. Happy to answer any other questions

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MangoAV8@reddit

Oooh oooh I have a question: why didn’t 125 teach you how to spell? You misspelled Harriers when you said Skids flew VFR and were CAS experts. Hope you’re well dude…

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Odominable@reddit

Haha fancy seeing you here! Guess nobody’s perfect, and I’m definitely not cool enough to handle the ol fire breathing dragon. Doing great! Just slightly busier as a squadron XO in a grey airplane than as an O4 Flight Student…

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caMV-35S@reddit

Thanks, dude! It's sad, but I have to agree that helo gunships dont look nearly as relevant as they used to be. They're just so damn cool, though haha. Like you said, at the end of the day, I'm just stoked to have this opportunity. I don't think the Corps has a bad platform, so I plan on going all in wherever I end up.

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hartzonfire@reddit

That’s awesome. Very cool!

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SnooCupcakes1514@reddit

If you are on flying status when you separate, there is little reason to fly GA... In my case, I hadn't touched a plane in 8 years when I retired, so I was told to be instrument current prior to my first interview. Approximately $1000 spent at a local flight school, and I was Instrument Current from the FAAs perspective.

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x4457@reddit

It really depends what exactly your resume looks like, but doing a year or two at a regional wasn't uncommon. But yes, do anything else you can to set yourself apart just like any other applicant.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah I’m an R-ATP guy now and I think I’ll just barely crack 1600-1700 at the end of this tour

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x4457@reddit

Then expect to do a victory lap. That said, things *will* be different by the time you get there - better or worse is anyone's guess.

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BritishTankalope@reddit

I heard from an older guy at Horizon that they're looking at upping hiring again at the end of summer. Just a rumor, of course, and anything could happen between now and then, but good to be aware of what people are saying.

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fallstreak_24@reddit

I saw fighter background getting picked up routinely in the 1500-1700 range, heavy background in the 2000-3000TT plus (depending on length of career). Most just had resume/interview prep and did just fine. Naturally, most people will gather the requisite experience for legacy airline gigs in the 10-year period post wings if you are active. If you are targeting UAL, I would look into the MIL pipeline. I think there is a nice 1-year transition. Fighter guys/gals will probably benefit from taking an ATP/CTP course prior to separation or getting a MEL rating if centerline thrust limited.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah I’ve got my R-ATP, so I did ATP-CTP and did the written/practical. So once I hit 1500, I can get the “R” taken off and have my full up ATP. Nice to see that I’ll be in the sweet spot for what they were looking for. All the Delta “if you don’t have 2500 hours, don’t talk to us” vibes have me spooked, but maybe that’s just a super short term thing.

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Icy_Avocado768@reddit

I wouldn’t bet on going directly to a legacy with <2,500TT, fighter type or not. It’s possible with like 2k but that is becoming increasingly rare. Training departments throughout the big hiring wave saw a lot of issues with non-airlift/tanker pilots adjusting to the Part 121 airliner type of flying. Not to be discouraging but this is why plopter guys like me are still choosing to get out with <1,500TT because regionals are still demonstrating a willingness to hire us but it’s become very apparent the majors don’t want us even with 1,500 and an unrestricted ATP.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah you guys have been getting hosed with the way some airlines have started interpreting your hours.

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0621Hertz@reddit

Just gonna tell what I know. I did CTP at Delta and they seem to not like fighter time as much as the other carriers. They seem to prefer heavy time. I talked to a 1700 hour Growler pilot at a job fair and he was told by Delta to get his time up to 2500 or “just do a year at a regional.”

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah I’m kind of writing Delta off unless their attitude changes. If I really bust my butt and fly a lot, I might hit 1850 hours, but I won’t get anywhere near 2500.

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0621Hertz@reddit

Centerline thrust restriction isn’t a thing anymore. Only Harrier and F-35B/C pilots (as well as USAF F-16 and F-35A pilots once the new trainer is up) have to worry about getting a MEL.

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fallstreak_24@reddit

Haha yeah, I see that now. Looks like it changed in 2018. I had no idea. Thanks for the info

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GeneratedUserHandle@reddit

You’re a single seat dude that will have over 1500 TPIC you’re fine and will go straight to a legacy. Become an IP if you aren’t already and don’t fail any NATOPS checks.

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CarminSanDiego@reddit

What’s natops

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Icy_Avocado768@reddit

Our annual checkride for maneuver standardization, emergency procedures, and CRM. Roughly analogous to a flight review.

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OtterVA@reddit

Really depends on your T/M/S. Flight Currency+ recency are extremely important. Aircraft commander and instructor time is important. NATOPS Evaluator/Safety/ CO is valued. NPS and war college are fluff. Community service is a nice conversation piece. Membership to to a valued group is a plus.

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GuppyDriver737@reddit

A lot of military guys were going to the regionals for 6 months prior to getting hired at majors before COVID.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

I thought that was mostly military helo guys who had ~3000 hours but no (or very very small) fixed wing time.

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GuppyDriver737@reddit

It was very common for fixed wing military guys to make a stop at the regionals first. I’m just making this number up, but I was doing hiring back then at my Major and I would say about 60-70% of military guys were making a stop at the regionals first. This was 2016-2018.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Damn. That’s not what I want to hear hahaha

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Grand_Raccoon0923@reddit

This is one of the more successful programs that has helped many of my friends. [https://www.rtag.org/](https://www.rtag.org/)

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WoundedAce@reddit

Cough, how about that multi TPIC, lol

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

I’m sure they just not care a ton. Traditionally F-16 dudes had very little, Harriers had none, and now the F-35 variants will all have little/none based on AF or Navy trainers.

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Icy_Avocado768@reddit

In order of importance: \- TPIC \- NATOPS/CRM Instructor \- Instrument Evaluator \- Aviation Safety Officer \- Operations Officer Bottom line: hours are still the key discriminator and TPIC is worth its weight in gold. A little less than FAR 121.436 qualifying time (multi-crew, multi-engine airplane or tiltrotor) but still very much so.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Sad to see OpsO so far down on the list based on how much work it is hahaha. So someone who could finagle an ASO and NATOPS O billet would look good to the airlines it seems.

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

Besides whatever arbitrary amount of house (which varied wildly), safety school was always one the airlines likes.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

That’s good to hear. I was actually asked about being Safety O and doing the school enroute/shortly after arriving.

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maverick715@reddit

And its a free pensacola vacation.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah that’s a huge plus regardless of how the airlines feel about it

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CMG128@reddit

The hiring has definitely tightened down. Going to RTAG in 2023 where so long as you had your hours for R-ATP they were taking you vs 2024 they were looking for people with 1500-2000 hours of time plus your ATP written complete. Luckily, I got hired with OO with 1100 hours and they paid for my ATP-CTP, but I did have to sign a 5 year contract. Granted no one was getting hired if they didn't sign that. I don't think they cared one bit about what I did in the military i.e. Command, combat hours, etc.., but I also never got confirmation if that had any weight on my hiring. I think it came down to the interview and how well you prepared for that.

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azulalwayslies@reddit

Single seat fighter guy here, dudes from my squadron are being picked up at 1500 by DL, AA, and United. That single seat turbine PIC is gold.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

That’s reassuring to hear. I guess this little slow down had me worried how much it would affect the mil side of hiring

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azulalwayslies@reddit

Yeah I feel ya, I'm applying in the next few months and was getting nervous. But, the gouge of military of having a little leg up is still true from what I've seen.

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skateboard_pilot@reddit

Bachelors degree, 2-3 years in the left seat at a regional, training department or chief pilots office work.

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IM_REFUELING@reddit

Not sure you actually read the question. Every military pilot (outside of some rotary wing warrant officer types) has at least a bachelor's, and the military doesn't have 'training departments' or 'chief pilots offices' in the same sense as guys who come from CFI backgrounds. Those equivalents in the military often are filled with much more high-time guys than folks that are jumping ship after their initial commitment. Also, military folks generally get plenty of TPIC and go straight to the legacies in decent hiring environments. Sometimes you see single-seat guys who aren't quite at 1500 TT do a couple years in a regional right seat to get to unrestricted ATP.

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skateboard_pilot@reddit

I didn’t read it fully, oops haha. I’ve been doing 121 flying at airlines for 13 years now. I used to fly with a TON of military pilots at the regionals because from like 2012-covid it was hard to go direct to a legacy. If it’s going back to those “hard times” then some of these guys are gonna have to go to a regional like most people used to. Honestly I wish that was a mandatory requirement because most of the guys that came from a fighter into the airlines as my first officer were some of the worst pilots I flew with. They were super intelligent guys and followed the rules but they had problems on the radio, ground operations, dealing with other crew members. I know they don’t ever have to deal with some of that stuff in an F22 but going to a legacy and not knowing how to taxi around a class B airport is wild to me! I’m glad guys are going into legacy airlines straight away that is an amazing opportunity and they deserve it after their service to our country. I just hate how people want to skip the regional step and I feel like people hate on it so much in this sub.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

I’ve got the bachelors since I’m in the military and could possibly do a masters. There isn’t really a training department or chief pilot. We have a “training officer” that fills most of those roles, so I kind of have to decide if I want to push for the safety side or the training o side, neither is guaranteed and they are almost mutually exclusive

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IM_REFUELING@reddit

Consensus from the guys I know is that safety is much more valuable. I doubt the airlines are as interested in dudes who manage spreadsheets tracking when people are coming due for some CBT or currency item.

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yes_im_sure_dammit@reddit

A Master’s degree means just about fuck all on your resume. Airlines care about qualifications that roughly translate to ones they desire. Working in NATOPS, Training, or even having Safety O or CRM-I designations are great. IP or evaluator time are gold as well. Honestly, pretty much any military aviator career will hit all the wickets for you as long as you don’t have major failures or flight related disciplinary issues. Don’t skimp on interview prep.

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Baystate411@reddit

Depends on what they flew cap

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Single seat fighter gun with hours in the low 1000s. So I’ll have TPIC, but overall low hours. Probably 1600-1700 when I bounce

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GeneratedUserHandle@reddit

you’ll get hired straight to a legacy

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IM_REFUELING@reddit

According to the old-timer reservists in my airframe, 1000 TPIC was the historical standard, with TT being 'average' based on what you flew (fighters, heavies, etc). Extra stuff like safety school, AIS, SOF/Ops Sup/Top 3, etc., make you more competitive compared to dudes with similar hours, but TPIC has always been the Prime-grade beef the airlines are after.

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JustAnotherDude1990@reddit

Maybe start by stating the aircraft you fly and how many hours you have...

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Single seat fighters in the low 1000s. I’ll probably end up around 1600-1700 when I’m done

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JustAnotherDude1990@reddit

Well, the good thing is airlines have a hard on for hiring former military guys, and you will be more than double the already halved ATP minimums you all get at that point. The bad news is there are plenty of us already in line for the airlines so you will be just another number, but you might get brownie points for the resume.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Yeah I’m trying to get a sense if I need to use these years to bang out a masters to check a box, should I try to go to a specific course or should I just sit back and wait to see if the hiring situation turns around by then

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SlowDuc@reddit

Don’t discount the value of a backup plan. If plan A is generally on track, then adding to plan B and getting a masters done to be competitive for O4, O5 might pay off huge (like Recession Huuuuuuge).

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JustAnotherDude1990@reddit

If only we all had a crystal ball. We all know it is cyclical. If you can continue building time, increasing your education, etc etc it would certainly make you look more appealing compared to someone else. Why so focused on the legacies? What's wrong with regionals if they're hiring and legacies arent?

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

If I have to I will. Had a bunch of buddies jump right to legacies and some are already wide body FOs, so feeling the fomo mostly

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JustAnotherDude1990@reddit

Take what you can get...I missed the hiring wave and someone I know that started after me and is younger than me (had more money to throw at it than I did) is already flying a 747. Lots of us will be on the backside of the timing curve and find it much harder than everyone else, sadly.

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Milktoast27@reddit

Youll be fine. As with any job take on additional responsibilities and show progression in your career. Airlines still heavily weight military flying. Worse case you might do a short stint at the regionals. Most military guys i flew with at the regionals werent flying enough to have the recency they wanted in final posting so they got recent did a year and were picked up. There was a couple that were just odd so i assumed their initial legacy interview didnt go well. Do the interview prep in your final year or two or whatever timing before separation and start going to some of the meet and greets or conferences. Would be surprised if you dont get your app pulled after that.

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VFR_Direct@reddit (OP)

Sweet. Yeah I should be current when I separate and I’ve been lurking in some interview prep social media accounts to figure out which one I want to use.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity: --- Hiring seems to be tightening down to “norms”, but no one in my command seems to have a good handle on what that actually means (other than being a good buzzword). Before COVID (or earlier if it is a better parallel), what were legacies wanting to see from a military pilot to get picked up? And what “other” stuff matters if in military? Do I need to get a masters? Volunteer more? Just fly more? TDLR: what can I do as a mil aviator on my last set of orders to ensure I get hired in 3 years? --- Please downvote this comment until it collapses. Questions about this comment? [Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/rflyingtower/). --- I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please [contact the mods of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/flying).

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