E-bikes are battery powered bicycles not battery powered motorcycles

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AMC879@reddit

15mph limit is too low. I often ride with assist level 3 which on my bike is around 18mph and I often get passed by people on manual bikes going over 20mph. The limit should be at least 20mph. I wouldn't mind seeing a 16 year old minimum even without licensing requirement

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They-Are-Out-There@reddit

People wouldn't have a problem with E-Bikes going fast if they did a of couple things:

1.) Obey the rules of the road

2.) Stop at all stop signs and red lights

3.) Stay in the proper lane and quit riding wheelies and freaking out people in cars, especially is mass group ride-outs.

This is the biggest problem with E-Bikes. Kids get on them, race around with no regard for the rules or traffic guidelines, and ride wheelies everywhere. They blow through red traffic lights and stop signs, ride the wrong way down one-way streets, they ride on sidewalks, and they pass too closely to other pedestrians.

It's already resulted in more laws and rules in California, and it will continue to force more rules to be passed in the future. I don't see people working to change their behavior.

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laosurvey@reddit

Seems like the focus should be on rider behavior then rather than speed.

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BeSiegead@reddit

Seems that the LIII 28 mph PAS upper limit makes reasonable sense:

- Speed fast enough to be 'at' traffic speed in 25, 30, even 35 mph streets

- Borderline to serious injury / collision speed

- Achievable speed by decent cyclist on a mechanical bike

Whether 28, 30, 35 mph, at some point one moves from 'electric assist bicycle' to 'electric motorcycle'. The second should have more significant licensing, fee, insurance expectations and requirements.

And, yes, BEHAVIOR -- enforce the laws and regulations rather than focusing on technical. If focusing on technical and road safety, a simple question: why are cars capable of >90 mph allowed.?

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blueskyredmesas@reddit

Yeah all the people going "This is why eBikes are going to be banned!!!" makes me wish we judged all drivers on the sideshow kids doing donuts in downtown so we could ban cars.

If people wanted it bad enough we'd probably even get better transit.

But no, cars get a pass and e-bikes catch all the flak. These people know that this hurts the peaceful ebike riders more than the lawbreakers because the lawbreakers will keep riding until they're getting their bikes impounded.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Yeah all the people going "This is why eBikes are going to be banned!!!" makes me wish we judged all drivers on the sideshow kids doing donuts in downtown so we could ban cars.

I've seen this argument in the thread a lot that cars are the bigger problem so we shouldn't complain about e-bikes.

That's like saying if someone punches you in the mouth that's not an issue because guns are the real problem.

It's whataboutism. Just because cars are the largest issue, doesn't mean e-bikes aren't an issue either, because e-bikes are highly unpredictable because you can't hear them. I don't have eyes in the back of my head. But I can hear a car coming so I'm completely safe walking in neighborhood streets with 25 MPH limits as I can hear the cars behind me coming and switch to the grass. There's only a sidewalk on one side of the road and there are usually dog walkers there.

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blueskyredmesas@reddit

I'm not asking you to exonerate ebikes though, I'm just saying I wish cars got this much flak. I legitimately wish we'd stop seeing through all the ghost bikes put at intersections, all the people who get flattened etc.

I'm elsewhere in this thread asking for enforcement of what we have because the problem isn't that e-bikes aren't banned, the problem is that there is not enforcement of the laws we have. If there was, these kids on Sur-rons and all that kind of nonsense would get their bikes impounded because they don't adhere to federal standards of what an e-bike is.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Honestly, it's refreshing talking to you because as I said a lot of people in this thread basically refuse to even acknowledge e-bikes as a problem.

Unfortunately that's kind of what happens when so many people drive. Even in a place like the Netherlands there's car bias there.

I'd say yes and no.

I live in the DC area and I'd say in DC even kickstand scooters limited to 20 MPH are an issue on the sidewalk, because again, you can't hear them.

I'd argue the close proximity in shared spaces and the amount of near misses is probably why they're getting flak. I guess the difference is if say, someone's walking their dog, they expect to have to be careful at an intersection and take precautions, but can't do anything at all if a teenager riding a silent e-bike comes from behind and kills their dog.

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blueskyredmesas@reddit

To me the core problem here is sidewalks are for pedestrians and should be for pedestrians. I've been accoustic biking for over a decade prior to getting into ebikes and it was basically all non-leisure riding - so commutes, shopping etc. The biggest problems I and pedestrians had, since it went both ways, was me coming up behind them and they can't hear me.

With bike lanes, the problem seems to go away. Yeah there are people walking in it or pushing a cart but I can do a rear check and fade into the traffic lane for a second.

Also sidewalks are just objectively hard to ride on, going up and down the curb ramp transitions feels gross and annoying. Bike lanes feel great when you can easily go 20-28 and match traffic so you're not getting whipped by car backblast.

I'd say the best option is to make it law that ebikes must use bike lanes when present.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Ideally, I do agree with you. On Eckington Pl NE we have bike lanes but you still see kickstand scooters and other PMDs on the sidewalk, because they're only on that street.

I feel it was made legal to ride bicycles outside of the Central Business District as a compromise for the lack in infrastructure.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of opposition to bike lanes. You can google "Connecticut Ave bike lanes". Ultimately it was shelved due to concerns about parking. It isn't that easy to get bike lanes created, sadly. But yes, in an ideal world we'd have an extensive bike lane network.

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CakeTester@reddit

The difference is, I think, that bikes and ebikes also use pedestrian infrastructure, which you can't really do with cars. There's a bunch of videos on youtube just from my model of bike of people zipping along paths at 50mph.

Ebikes give an opportunity to be an arsehole in a much wider variety of places.

The other thing, and this is the genuinely dangerously problematic bit, is where pedestrian infrastructure and road meet. You see people zipping out on pedestrian crossings and suchlike at ebike speeds, and there isn't the space or reaction time to deal with that. You're expecting stuff in pedestrian areas to be moving at pedestrian speeds; and when it doesn't things can get sticky.

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blueskyredmesas@reddit

You can physically zip onto a sidewalk doing 50 but that doesn't mean it's legal. Same as how you can take a lethal object and do a bunch of shit in a public place to undeserving people. Doesn't mean you should or that you can do that without getting justifiably locked away.

So the solution isn't a ban, really, its bike infrastructure and enforcement of laws that already exist.

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CakeTester@reddit

I think it's a little more complicated than that, in that there is already precedent for using bikes and e-toys on pedestrian infrastructure. If the road is too dangerous, for example, or if you're keeping pace with a pedestrian mate, or accessing places in pedestrian zones. Of course, you're supposed to dismount and push, but very few ever have or ever will.

Bike infrastructure is another knotty problem. It costs a lot of money and needs space. Also on bike paths you have sort of the reverse problem if it's near a pedestrian path, because pedestrians will wander along the bike path being pedestrians; and as the operator of the fast-moving heavy thing, it's still your job to miss them. They solved that here in Spain by imposing an urban blanket speed limit if 25km/h and declaring the roads as open to all; and everybody has to play nice or expect car-sized fines. It works quite well.

I think the solution is better education, plus - as you say - enforcement of the laws we already have. Education to make very clear what happens to you and pedestrians with X amount of weight and Y amount of speed. Also education to demonstrate what happens when you shoot out on pedestrian crossings at e-speeds and get collected.

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pvirushunter@reddit

I get you but this is not about cars and being realistic no one is going to do shit to car drivers.

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inund8@reddit

To me the best delineation between an ebike and electric motorbike would be the weight and maybe the ability to hit 60mph/100kph. Realistically, this is the easiest thing to measure, and we can regulate how fast people are moving on bike infrastructure. Arbitrary speed limits on bikes only serve to make cars the dominate mode of transportation, which is bad for everyone.=

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BeSiegead@reddit

Injury risk — both to rider and others — is how much greater at 60 mph. Vehicles that can do 60 (highway speed) have far different standards and requirements than seen with class III e-bikes

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inund8@reddit

Yeah, and we could work those standards in, but if you truly want to reduce pedestrian fatalities, you need fewer cars on the road. A 2000lb 80's civic carrying a single person has the same energy as 8-10 ebikers. If we want to level out the risk profile then that means your e biker should be allowed to ride around 70mph in a 25mph zone. (using kE=1/2mv^2).

Now this isn't me saying we should have that limit in place, this is me saying don't point a finger at e bikers when they're nowhere near the problem that the God damn cagers are. I should know, I am one. I wouldn't be, if I had a safe route to ride my ebike to work though, which is why I'm such an annoying militant e bike advocate.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Alright, if you're just going to downvote me when I've brought up salient points like teens can cause more damage with e-bikes at 28 MPH and that infrastructure takes time to build while the danger is still, then this conversation is done.

Now this isn't me saying we should have that limit in place, this is me saying don't point a finger at e bikers when they're nowhere near the problem that the God damn cagers are. I should know, I am one. I wouldn't be, if I had a safe route to ride my ebike to work though, which is why I'm such an annoying militant e bike advocate.

I'm going to point a finger at e-bikers when they hit pedestrians on sidewalks because they are a problem on sidewalks.

My point is they're separate spaces and separate issues but you want to focus on cars.

You're so focused on cars you don't care about the danger pedestrians deal with everyday on the sidewalks. You're beyond annoying. You're thinking far too zero sum on the manner. Basically as long as drivers in cars exist, then bicycles on sidewalks don't matter. But it isn't zero sum. You can solve both problems at the same time separately. So you're completely wrong on this.

I don't think all the pedestrians hit by an e-bike are happy that at least it wasn't a car. I think they'd rather not get hit at all.

I should know, I am one. I wouldn't be, if I had a safe route to ride my ebike to work though, which is why I'm such an annoying militant e bike advocate.

Your own situation proves that having infrastructure isn't that easy, and yet you just spout "build infrastructure" as if it's that easy. You're a hypocrite.

And your argument does have flaws which you refuse to admit:

Potential Areas for Debate or Nuance:

"Don't point a finger at e bikers when they're nowhere near the problem that the God damn cagers are." (Zero-Sum Thinking): While cars are the largest problem, the argument implies that because e-bikes are less of a problem, they are no problem at all, or that focusing on them is entirely misdirected. Policymakers often argue they must address all significant safety concerns, even if some are smaller than others. The concern about e-bike speed often arises specifically in shared spaces (bike lanes, multi-use paths) where cars are generally absent, making the car comparison less directly relevant to that particular conflict.

Context of Risk: The kinetic energy argument, while mathematically sound, doesn't fully account for the context of collisions. An e-bike hitting a pedestrian in a bike lane where speeds might be unexpected is a different type of risk than a car hitting a pedestrian on a major road. The danger isn't just about total energy, but also about the predictability of interaction in specific environments.

"Reckless Teens" and Vehicle Amplification: The earlier comment mentioned "reckless teens." While the argument here correctly points out that recklessness is independent of the vehicle, the severity of the consequences of that recklessness is amplified by the vehicle's speed and mass. A reckless individual on a faster, heavier e-bike can cause more harm than on a traditional bike or on foot.

Twisting a concern about traffic violence (caused by automobiles) into hand-wringing about speed limits for bicyclists is whataboutism. Don’t let politicians let cars off the hook for their harms and shift blame to bikes.

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pvirushunter@reddit

I think some do have speed regulators and we do have very strict rules on who can drive, how to drive, insurance, road legal, and licensing.

Not a good example.

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Top-Salamander-2525@reddit

The rules for drivers are not very strict at all, and the insurance costs are related to the expense of the vehicles and the amount of damage they do daily to people and property.

The only expensive part of bicycle insurance is theft coverage - there’s nowhere near the public cost associated with uninsured cars for uninsured bicycles.

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pvirushunter@reddit

Sorry I just disagree.

Bikes have no oversight in any way.

To be clear im not advocating for regulations but. ars are a different thing altogether. There is a licensing fee, driving test, driving exams and insurance.

As you noted the cost of a bike is small as well as risk to other people is low.

With ebikes though zipping through heavy use trails the risk of injury increases. The cost of a bike is really not worth insurance for the cost of the bike. I do see a problem with liability though hopefully it doesnt come to that.

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Top-Salamander-2525@reddit

The data just does not support you.

Want to reduce pedestrian injuries? Decrease car number and speed.

Want to reduce cyclist injuries? Decrease car number and speed.

E-bikes are not causing a significant number of injuries or fatalities.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Although I lived in NYC for a while and acknowledge NYC is different, I live in the DC area now and commute to DC daily for treatment.

Yes, cars overall kill more pedestrians. But they're restricted to roads so it's apples and oranges.

Here scooters, e-bikes, e-mopeds, etc. ride on the sidewalk and it's dangerous. I have a close call with them daily. I can't hear a silent PMD coming from behind.

In the same sense, mopeds and motorcycles on the road often lane split, which is also unpredictable.

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Top-Salamander-2525@reddit

So restrict bicycles to roads or bike paths.

I doubt it’s legal for any adult to use a bicycle on the sidewalk in DC, and if it is, you should change that.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Uh, it is legal as long as you're not in the CBD?

https://waba.org/resource/pocket-guide-to-dc-bike-laws/

Title 18, 1201.9 permits bicycle riding on sidewalks except in the Central Business District. (Roughly Massachusetts Avenue to the north, Constitution Avenue to the south, 23rd Street NW, to the west and 2nd Street, NE to the east).

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tlg-the-laxx-god@reddit

I’ve been doing all 3 and there sre still people yelling at me from the bus about how Im not a car and shouldnt be on the road. I stopped at a stop sign yesterday and the car coming from my right that was mid turn almost got into an accident because 2 cars coming from behind me had already decided this was their time to pass me. I think the real problem is that neither car drivers nor legislators are actually interested in learning enough about the problem to even solve it. Their biase makes it preferred to just minimize the problem and for the majority of people the issue is solved.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

2.) Stop at all stop signs and red lights

Because the power and mass of a bicycle, even an e-bike is a fraction of a moped.

A 49cc moped @ 3hp is the same as a 3000 to 5000w electric motor, depending on design of electric motor.

Weight? Around 180 lbs with liquids and gas.

So granted, you could have a bicycle that heavy, but it is unlikely.

Kenetic energy at 30mph? 13869 Joules, assuming a 150lb rider.

50lb electric bike? 8158.32 joules at 30mph, same rider.

Car? 169245 J, same driver as rider, 30 mph, 4000lb car. Slight under average in US.

So the risks are not comparable, not to the rider, not to the object hit. I dare say a car would barely notice being hit by a bike at 30mph.

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Edub-69@reddit

Cars are irrelevant to my point. Mass is also irrelevant to my point.

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pvirushunter@reddit

Uhm CA is aet have that rule and some countries already do this.

Do you want me to Google it for you or you have that covered?

Some mopeds already have limiters too.

I thought it was common knowledge.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

Canada?

Mmmmkay.

Some mopeds already have limiters too.

Are those because of laws, or because of design limits?

My BMW R1250gsa has a limiter at 135mph or thereabouts. At that speed the bike is rapidly approaching the limit of stability due to aerodynamics. The gearing and HP would get me to the 160 range.

It is something the Manufacturer puts on, not by law. I could get a 'busa and not have that limit.

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Stop at all stop signs and red lights

Bicycles are not required to stop at stop signs in many states, for good reason - the less time spent in the intersection the safer the cyclist is. You're still supposed to stop if the intersection isn't obviously clear of course, and you should still slow down when approaching.

This is the biggest problem with E-Bikes. Kids get on them, race around with no regard for the rules or traffic guidelines, and ride wheelies everywhere.

I think this is getting at the real heart of the issue. Too many irresponsible people, primarily teenagers / young adults, are getting these with no accountability.

On the other hand... I'd rather some of these people be stupid on e-bikes than in a car. Limits the potential damage, no matter how obnoxious they are.

So there's a balance to be struck here.

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Mx_LxGHTNxNG@reddit

People do all that, and still get the ire of the Body Politic.

Where I am, in an American Suburb that has 140 miles of bike paths that in part runs behind my house, and I'd say it is a daily occurrence by the spandex crowd. That's when they aren't just taking up the whole path in a bunched up grouping, stopping all traffic so they can own both road and bike path.

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Commentariot@reddit

They trained for years to maintain that speed and know how to ride a bike - the 12 year olds that cruise my bike path at 25 on heavy ebikes have not the first clue what they are doing.

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AMC879@reddit

Neither do their parents. No able bodied 12 year old needs an ebike.

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NewYearNewAccount165@reddit

The way things are going there needs to be some sort of license or certification system. Dunno about USA but in Canada you technically need a pleasure craft operators cert to pilot a boat or PWC. It’s a simple class and test but at least they can say you took the test and should know the rules.

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NewYearNewAccount165@reddit

Governments like to go after the low hanging fruit that’s easiest to implement. North America is a car centric society. But bicycles are becoming more popular in that way more people use them for work or transportation vs leisure.

Think about all the people that are horrible at driving. Now put them on a bike and it’s a recipe for disaster. More and more young people aren’t even getting their drivers licenses so they don’t even know the basic rules of the road. Instead of these limits drive home road safety as kids and then test as adults. Doesn’t matter if you’re in the right when you’re dead so you need to ride like everyone is out to kill you and don’t trust anything the cars on the road appear to be doing.

I cycle like I ride a motorcycle. Head on a swivel, shoulder checking, eye contact with drivers etc. Most people I see cycling have tunnel vision head down not paying attention to anything around them and just expecting motor vehicles to “follow the rules”.

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NewYearNewAccount165@reddit

The point is the rider needs to be responsible for their own safety. You can’t ever trust the driver. And a horrible driver now on a bike will most likely NOT put their safety first.

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Significant_Quit_674@reddit

Yes, but you're even more responsible for not injuring others.

A bad rider on a bike has much less potential for that than a bad driver in a car.

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blueskyredmesas@reddit

"Think about all the people that are horrible at driving. Now put them on a bike and it’s a recipe for disaster." has to be the most unhinged take I've seen today. Let's compare;

multiple tons vs. \~250lbs soaking wet.
No speed governor and potential speeds of 100mph vs. 20mph throttle, 28mph pedaling.
Blind spots caused by your giant metal machine vs. all around vision.
Banned from all sidewalks vs. banned from sidewalks in most places.

Wild59Bill@reddit

Where I live they do set a speed limit of 20 kph (12.5 mph) on multi-use Pedestrian/Bike paths. Remember, people with baby strollers & young children use these multi-use pathways.

Now do people still ride class 3 in the trails anyway? Ya, but just last week I saw kids riding "bikes" with gas powered moters so....

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BoringBob84@reddit

having a throttle prevents people from getting to work sweaty

Pedal assistance already does that.

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LeaveElectrical8766@reddit

I still arrive with a light layer of sweat at work with my class 1. Granted it's a lot less than when I took my analong bike, but it's still there. But I like going around 20mph, not 15mph.

Also I'm a fan of getting more people into bikes. The more people who ride, the more the public will demand bike infrastructure, the more bike infrastructure I'll have to ride on.

Now I'm not saying people should go 40mph on a bike trail, that's just silly, but I regularly get passed by analog riders when I'm going 20mph so I'm fine with 20mph throttle bikes to get more demand for more trails.

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BoringBob84@reddit

I still arrive with a light layer of sweat at work with my class 1. Granted it's a lot less than when I took my analong bike, but it's still there. But I like going around 20mph, not 15mph.

The speed limit here on the MUPs is 15 MPH, so I ride more slowly. Also, I leave early in the morning (when the temperature is cool) and I dress in layers. I might sweat a little, but not enough to need a shower.

The more people who ride, the more the public will demand bike infrastructure

I agree in general, but only if that bike infrastructure remains safe, and that is my concern.

I'm not saying people should go 40mph on a bike trail

I regularly get zinged by jackasses doing exactly that. They don't announce and they pass closely and at high speed. It frightens me because I often have to swerve suddenly to avoid an obstacle or a suicide bunny.

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LeaveElectrical8766@reddit

The more people who ride, the more the public will demand bike infrastructure

I agree in general, but only if that bike infrastructure remains safe, and that is my concern.

Nothing is perfectly safe. Everything has risks. The question is what do you gain for the risk.

If we wanted everything perfectly safe we'd ban all bikes. People die in analog bike crashes or get concussions that ruin their lives!

I'm not saying people should go 40mph on a bike trail

I regularly get zinged by jackasses doing exactly that.

As to those who pass you supposedly going 40mph, I have to question if they really are going 40mph since thr vast majority of people can't reliably guess someone's speed. 30 I can see, which will still blitz past you since its twice your speed, but not 40.

They don't announce and they pass closely and at high speed

Well that's just bad manners on their part that will get them in an accident some day. Announcing yourself is both courteous and protective. Why my pet peeve is people on the trail with headphones or both in ear headphones in. Completely blocks their situstional awareness.

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BoringBob84@reddit

Nothing is perfectly safe. Everything has risks. The question is what do you gain for the risk.

I am not demanding perfection, but I think we can do better. My local government just announced their intention to hire several "Rangers" who will be dedicated to enforcing the laws on MUPs. I am very happy about this.

There are many studies on this. Among the top reasons why more people don't ride more often is the lack of safe and contiguous paths. I think that these results logically extend to fast/powerful/dangerous electric cycles on non-motorized paths being a deterrent to pedestrians and bicyclists because of the risk to their safety. Less people using the paths will be less people advocating the government for new paths.

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LeaveElectrical8766@reddit

I agree with the lack of contigous/connected paths being a detriment from people riding. I had to get comfortable with street riding before I started biking a lot just since the trails all start at least a mile away from me, 7ish if I need to go south.

Where we disagree is you think people going 20mph on a bike will scare people off the trail, where I think it's much higher before that even begins to be a thing.

I'm also more worried about the cyclist that doesn't announce themselves or has both ears covered than I am about someone going 30mph. But yes 40mph? Get off the trails, you can PLENTY keep up with the cars.

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BoringBob84@reddit

Where we disagree is you think people going 20mph on a bike will scare people off the trail

Did I say that? Or maybe you are God, with the ability to know what someone else is truly thinking.

I have a radar taillight that indicates when a vehicle approaches at more than 30 kph above my speed. Just because it is difficult or uncomfortable for you to believe doesn't make it false.

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LeaveElectrical8766@reddit

Dude calm down I didn't insult you we were having a discussion. Good grief.

I got the 20mph from you saying that was to fast in a prior comment, and I combined that your other comment about people going to fast scares people off the road.

As to the speed bit, I didn't know that you had a radar, vast majority of cyclists do not but still claim to magically know people's speed, so I was going off statistics.

Throwing insults because someone politely disagreed with you? Good grief the EU is doomed if you're all like that.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Dude calm down I didn't insult you we were having a discussion. Good grief.

It's a big assumption you made when they never stated that and specifically stated 40 MPH. A better way to phrase discussion would have been something like "May I ask how you know they're going 40 MPH?"

I got the 20mph from you saying that was to fast in a prior comment, and I combined that your other comment about people going to fast scares people off the road.

His previous comment in this thread was only saying that 15 MPH is the speed limit for MUPs and that he rides more slowly, but he never specifically stated the problematic riders were riding at only 20 MPH. It's an assumption you made, as that's only 5 MPH above the MUP speed limit.

Throwing insults because someone politely disagreed with you? Good grief the EU is doomed if you're all like that.

As stated, it's very insulting to assume you know what another person thinks when they didn't say certain things.

And you just did it again. You made another assumption. He lives in Washington state.

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BoringBob84@reddit

Dude calm down I didn't insult you

Telling someone else what they think is arrogant and insulting. Telling them to "calm down" is even more insulting. If this was a civil discussion, you would have apologized. But instead, you doubled down on your ego. I am willing to discuss this issue in good faith but I will not waste any more time on bad faith arguments.

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AMC879@reddit

I have a handicap placard. Would that allow me to use my ebike throttle everywhere? Seems like it would violate ADA laws here in the US if I could not use it.

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BoringBob84@reddit

ADA doesn't apply to bicycles, but it does apply to personal mobility devices.

However, where I live, you could still use your Class 2 ebike on non-motorized dirt trails (like mountain bike trails). I could not, and I am OK with that.

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AMC879@reddit

I can't do off road trails with jumps. Too much of a risk to my artificial hip. Nothing too bumpy and definitely no actual jumps. I hope I get decent use out of my bike before it becomes illegal. It is my only form of exercise or recreation.

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HackD1234@reddit

I feel your pain, my fellow Hippy.

I've had bilateral replacements that didn't work out quite as expected in optimal outcomes.

As such, my e-whatevers are very much in my mind, Adaptive Cycles. Allowing me to be as physically active, as much as is possible.

Don't make me deploy the handicapped sticker, bruhs..

There are days when i deploy the e-bike (2 wheels) and days i am on a tadpole recumbent e-trike - depends on how well i am feeling, on any given day in terms of balance, range of motion, background pain levels. Unfortunately, it's more often the tadpole that i go to..

Without e-assist - on double track trails, bike pathways, or the streets - i would be stuck to a Truck. I prefer to leave that in the driveway, whenever physically able for an ebike/etrike.

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pvirushunter@reddit

you sure?

20 mph is not slow.

Down a steep hill I hit about 25 mph and that is fast.

At a good clip with a middrive I hit 15 mph not super hard but I do have to be trying. 20 mph would be pedaling a good bit.

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papa-hare@reddit

I'm pretty sure, I also ride 15ish and am constantly passed by regular bikes. I'd love to know their set up or if they're really just that strong TBH.

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besselfunctions@reddit

You are constantly passed at that speed because it is not especially fast on level ground. A few more MPH is a lot more exertion.

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buzz-a@reddit

I ride a single speed with no motor. I travel 18-20mph on level ground regularly.

25mph shouldn't feel crazy if your bike is well setup and has good brakes.

I generally ride my pedal bikes faster than my ebike, but that's down to it being a cargo bike and usually having 2 squirmy kids on the back.

20mph seems like a fair distinction between ebike and moped to me.

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stormdelta@reddit

20mph seems like a fair distinction between ebike and moped to me.

It's not though because 20-30mph is not enough to safely keep up with city traffic in most parts of the US. So if you ban these from bike lanes / paths, you're left with "mopeds" that can't actually be used anywhere.

Same here. Due to a hip replacement and spinal cord issues, discovering ebikes was a godsend for me. And it has allowed me to enjoy biking again at an older age. I usually ride on pas 1-2. And I occassionally use the throttle when I am stopped at an intersection or am trying to traverse a steep hill. My bike is a class 3 but I have only used it as a class 2 bike. Though it is reassuring to know I can ride faster if needed.

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Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit

I often get passed by people on manual bikes going over 20mph

Maybe the lycra crowd on road bikes, but definitely not anyone on a casual ride or even a commute

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bullshit 37 is fast much , much faster then average speed for tour de france riders.

https://www.cyclistshub.com/tour-de-france-statistics/#gid=1&pid=3

Yes i know it is average but these are not recreational riders with recreational bikes.

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markisadog@reddit

yes tour de france riders are riding long distances on bike made for climbing or aero, this was a person sprinting on a bike built for pure speed, or at least geared as such. any tour de france racer could go 37 mph in a dead sprint

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pvirushunter@reddit

so Tour de france riders...a pro, on a pro bike in a dead sprint...yeah I agree but can we agree that most bicyclist are NOT tour de france shape with tour de france bikes going on a full sprint

Cmon now.

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logic_boy@reddit

I think that with a 52T front sprocket and a few degree decline it’s certainly doable. Your fitness will determine how long you can maintain such speeds but that’s beside the point. TdF riders will ride comfortably at 32mph even at the end of their race.

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pvirushunter@reddit

you noticed it was about 37 mph

but I am astounded that so many people think they can easily achieve +32 mph as a non pro with non pro bikes...

Tha is nonsense.

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randomjeepguy157@reddit

I’m 44 and about 225lbs. I hit 37mph a few days ago downhill on my road bike. It’s not the fastest bike, it’s a steel frame All City Zig Zag, no motor at all. The fastest I’ve been is 49 mph, haven’t broken 50 but I was trying my hardest! That was a difficult bike that was set up for gravel so I think I could break 50 on my Zig Zag (that was downhill in Colorado so a lot of help).

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logic_boy@reddit

The reason why so many people think they can do it, is because we have all done it… it’s trivial to keep pedalling hard. Especially when going down hill and a big front sprocket.

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pvirushunter@reddit

The idea that this is a routine speed crazy.

I don't know what smart has to do with anything. Maybe this is something that you are insecure about and tell people they are "not very smart" when it has zero to do with the convo.

Your ten friends should join a team and beat the shit out of the pros.

Have at it. Clearly, you and your buds can haul ass way faster than the average speed in races.

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markisadog@reddit

I’m saying that you aren’t very smart to think it is that hard to sprint 35 mph for a couple seconds.

Me and my friends aren’t pros, and we couldn’t hold that sprint for more than a few seconds, but anyone with a decent level of fitness and and a large front chainring could do a 35 mph sprint.

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pvirushunter@reddit

Well you see this not about "holding it for a few seconds" and optimized gear this is about commuting and routine speeds-typical situations.

The convo is about a typical bicyclist and their typical bikes.

As a long time bicyclist yes I can prob do that but is it feasible.to make decisions on atypical situations.

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chetsteadmansstache@reddit

So you know 10 liars? I think we all do.

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chetsteadmansstache@reddit

It's absolutely not. Very advanced track cyclists can barely hit 37mph in a dead sprint.

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kwajr@reddit

No downhill riders were hitting 66kph this weekend at leogang

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pvirushunter@reddit

you mean like competitove racers going downhill

you are correct you never said that, I think going downhill we know we can go fast

I have to give it you going that fast on a mountain bike is more than decent

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37 mph is bullshit for the common rider on a non pro bike-bombing downhill is maybe doable which is not what this convo is about.

yeah I've been bike commuting for 10+ years and have both an ebike and an aggressive dropped handle bar Surly.

37 mph is not something that a regular rider does

yes completely 100% unrealistic

there is no reading comprehension issues

yeah I know that - we all know that.

It's about everyday routine/commuting/transportation speed. Not Criterion racing speed.

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sanjuro_kurosawa@reddit

Like I said, I raced road bikes and I ride motorcycles too. But the first time I took out a Class 1, it was a bit scary.

It was one of those docker bikes rented by Lyft and it is built like a 3 speed cruiser, not a speed machine. Also I'm using it in heavy urban traffic, not a quiet road in the forest.

I happen to do a lot of industrial road commuting where there are zero people and almost no cross traffic (lots of big trucks though). There I could do 28mph or faster but in busy environments, 15 is fine.

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Enkiduderino@reddit

My only e-bike experience was on a citibike equivalent and I was disturbed by how difficult it was to go slowly on a crowded path. Two pedal strokes and it zips right up to 15mph!

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Delicious_Owl7429@reddit

Or a hill…

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Chaoticgaythey@reddit

Yeah my wife was complaining that her breaks on a class 2 ebike (limited to 20mph) weren't working well on one of the hills near here and I had to explain that she was probably hitting 30-35 because western PA is just like that

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Tondouxsac@reddit

Very few people can or want to do that.

15mph is way too low, but 30mph is indeed dangerous.

Why is there even a debate when 20mph was the reasonable norm, acceptable for everyone? (You can still push it to 30 without electrical assistance).

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

but 30mph is indeed dangerous for bikes.

Assertion without evidence. What evidence do you have it is dangerous?

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kickass404@reddit

Mowing down a pedestrian with 30mph will cause serious injuries. Bike and pedestrians often share the same space.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

Mostly by one of two ways:

Laws that force such interactions. Like multi use path laws.

People violating no sidewalk laws.

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kickass404@reddit

If you're incapable of understanding the argument, I'll dumb it down for you.

Citing a pedestrian with 30mph will cause serious injuries. Bike and pedestrians often share the same space.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

Hey, don't get mad that you made a stupid arguement about cyclists intentionally running people over.

Moving the goalposts after being proven wrong does you no good.

And it's still wrong. The chances of getting hit by a bike and being injured is about 20 to one, cars and bikes.

Solve the actual problem, quit making new ones up.

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fourthstanza@reddit

That's about the speed it's generally understood that car-pedestrian collisions start to have a significant fatality rate (you can see this borne out in the data in Lubbe et al 2022 for example). I'd expect bike-pedestrian fatalities to occur somewhere in that ballpark; while a cyclist has much less total kinetic energy, a bike is not designed to protect a pedestrian in a collision like cars are.

This is definitely an area that needs significantly more testing and research to inform the policy decisions being made.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

Let me repeat back the claim:

but 30mph is indeed dangerous for bikes.

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fourthstanza@reddit

The kinetic energy of the thing impacting a pedestrian does not determine the scope of injury. A cruise ship bumping into you at a snail's pace has more kinetic energy than a bullet. The former will do nothing to you, the latter will kill you. The danger is in how much energy is transferred to the pedestrian over the course of the collision, how quickly, over what cross-sectional area, and where on the body. Answering that question is very complicated. Studies need to be done.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

The kinetic energy of the thing impacting a pedestrian does not determine the scope of injury.

Bullshit.

A cruise ship bumping into you at a snail's pace has more kinetic energy than a bullet.

Yes, and if you are in the water, expect to drown. If it pins you up against something, expect to be human fois gras.

The danger is in how much energy is transferred to the pedestrian over the course of the collision, how quickly, over what cross-sectional area, and where on the body.

So you do get it, but you can't apply it logically.

Answering that question is very complicated. Studies need to be done.

They have been. The pedestrian loses. But... Pedestrian/bike collisions are rare.

https://etrr.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s12544-021-00497-z

Of all respondents, 99 had experienced a pedestrian collision, 17% of which involved a cyclist. An additional 187 respondents had experienced a cyclist accident, of which 6% involved a pedestrian.

So 94% of sampled accidents DID NOT include a pedestrian. 11% were with cars, presumably. Maybe the damn horses? I dunno.

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fourthstanza@reddit

Right, bike-pedestrian collisions at speed do have the potential to cause pretty significant injury.

I absolutely agree that these sorts of collisions likely are and will be pretty rare- much rarer than car-ebicycle collisions would be if we relegate them to the roads (though I hope we reach a time when they are not so rare as this will mean e-bikes have become a primary transit mode). I'm interested in finding the speed where the danger to pedestrians outweighs the gains by allowing that class of vehicle on mixed-use pathways, keeping them off the street and away from cars. I think it's obvious we don't want electric motorcycles capable of highway speeds on these pathways.

That cap aught to be somewhere between 0 and 100kph. 30 feels reasonable to me, because that's the fastest I've ever felt I needed to go on my ebike. I understand that others might feel differently. 50 seems high because of what I know about car-pedestrian collisions. I would imagine that any sort of vehicle colliding with a pedestrian at 50kph will have a significant chance of causing death, so it seems to me we would have to pick between endangering pedestrians and ebike riders at that point.

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Tondouxsac@reddit

You can see why I chose not to reply to this guy :)

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Ill_Cheetah_1991@reddit

I have been riding an ebike since 2011

UK legal versions only - so motor cuts out at 15 mph (25 kph) and no throttle

Generally the only people who pass me on "normal" bikes are wearing lycra and on proper road bikes with drops and all that

and look like they train properly

every other bike rider is going at pretty much my speed or a bit slower

so 15 mph seems like a reasonable speed to limit them to - after that you have to do it yourself

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Chaoticgaythey@reddit

I'd honestly be good with 20mph for an assisted speed limit and anything past that is down to you pedaling or taking a hill. My comfort level usual stops me from doing even that much on a good day

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Ill_Cheetah_1991@reddit

That seems too hight for me

The point in it being an ebike and not an electric motorbike is that it is basically just capabel of acting like a normal bike

and most cyclists using normal bikes don;t ride at 20 mph

as an example on a flat stage in the Tour de France the spped of the pro cyclists is 24.6 mph (2015)

with the exception of experinced and fit cyclist training on proper high quality road bike no-one will generally ride unassisted at a sped of 20 mph

and anyone who can ride unassisted at 20mph is very fit and experiencec

But an ebike is supposed to mimic a normal ride - not a proper racer.

hence 15 mph

in my experience, when I am riding at or near the cut off limit then the only cyclust that are riding faster than me are on proper road bike with drops and wearing Lycra and all that

and are really riding properly - probably training

30 mph is pro-level speed.

Hey, F1 driver can each 240mph. Why don't we make our freeway speed limit to 240mph!

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terminashunator@reddit

Autobahn: exists

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If you can't see the similarities, then maybe you should comment here.

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IceNein@reddit

I have never once rode my e-bike leisurely. I bought it for exercise. I only ride in power assist 1. The other day for the very first time I went to power assist 2 to pass another cyclist.

So I guess I’m here to agree, many people ride for exercise or for sport.

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Thamilkymilk@reddit

i ride mine to commute, I’m pretty much always on power assist 3 (the highest my bike has) which with me pedaling fairly hard and going downhill only reaches about 26-31 MPH depending on how steep and long the hill is.

I’m regularly traveling at about 18-22 MPH (which is at a not leisurely pedal but not an intense one either) when on roads and i drop to power assist 1 or 0 when on trails with pedestrians so its anywhere from >0-7 MPH and i always have a hand on a break. Going consistently about 20 MPH makes me feel a hell of a lot safer on the road around traffic, they still always pass me but it feels like they’re forced to acknowledge my existence

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vendeep@reddit

I am okay with people manually peddling going 20+ miles an hour. It means they are somewhat fit and can manage manuring a bicycle.

I am not okay with teenagers and inexperienced riders throttling past 20mph. They have very limited clue on the consequences.

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lee1026@reddit

The current world record for 1 hour speed trial is 34 miles in one hour.

As late as 2005, the world record for the 1 hour speed trial was 29mph.

Yes, but then it becomes an issue of Mass and inertia. And the damage it can do in an accident.

Most of the US allows Class 1 and 2 eBikes (20 mph assistance limit) for everyone, but restricts Class 3 (28 mph, pedal assist only) for those 16+.

Moped laws vary by state. In some states, they're capped at 25 mph. In others, there's no speed cap, but an engine size cap. For example, in Wisconsin, it's 50cc, which can typically go 38 mph. Anything bigger is a motorcycle.

Anything above 28 mph is technically not an eBike any more. The problem is that eBikes are selling faster than enforcement can keep up. So they just write more laws they won't enforce, which inconveniences law-abiding citizens and does nothing to solve the issue.

This is The American Way.

Sorry. You are so right. The problem is when we decide to take aside the pedalling aspect of the bike, and just use the throttle.

Personally, I started using the throttle for commuting to school, then it became a habit.

[deleted]

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

I don't know what having bike lanes has to do with getting a motorcycle to travel at car speeds? Motorcycles also have ABS, which is safer.

The point is that most e-bikes are not designed to handle 35+ MPH speeds.

Like the advice was if you want to travel at car speeds, you should get a motorcycle. I don't see how that's unhelpful advice.

This subreddit so weird sometimes compared to r/bikecommuting :
https://old.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/1i8zqq3/is_it_unusual_to_dislike_bikecommuting/m8y9c2e/?context=3

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sneakpeekbot@reddit

I remember someone was trying to do a 28 mile commute at 30-35 MPH and someone warned him the bicycle wasn't designed to handle those speeds.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/13xcj2n/wish_me_luck_tomorrow_i_begin_my_28_mile_ebike/jmly26r/?context=10000

Be careful. Most of the parts you've built that bike with are not meant to handle the speeds you are talking about. Just a standard pothole could destroy a rim and cause a catastrophic crash. Not to mention the forces that'll be put on a who-knows-what fork and that tiny front brake rotor. And a dual crown fork on an old aluminum frame.

If folks can't even come to terms with other ebike riders then we are all screwed.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

why dafuq you being downvoted?

I had the dissatisfaction of having a discussion with someone the other day where he refused to admit any wrongdoing of e-bike riders because cars are worse.

A lot of comments in this whole thread echo that sentiment, that cars are worse so e-bike injuries don't matter.

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BoringBob84@reddit

Many people want "the best of both worlds:" the privilege of a bicycle (to ride it anywhere) and the power and speed of a motorcycle, without the responsibility of a motorcycle (e.g., license, registration, insurance, safety equipment). They pretend that an electric cycle with ornamental pedals is an "ebike" so that they can get away with riding it on public roads, non-motorized paths, and sidewalks.

This comes at the cost of the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists on non-motorized paths. The public reaction is typically draconian restrictions on all ebikes. Neither of these are acceptable consequences to me because I am passionate about the potential of ebikes to revolutionize transportation. Pointing this out is obviously uncomfortable for some people.

With that said, I do not want to see fast / powerful electric cycles banned. I think that they are wonderful transportation and I would like to see laws changed to allow people to ride them legally.

For example, where I live, a "moped" can travel at speeds up to 30 MPH / 48 kph and can have a motor with up to 2 HP / 1,500 Watts. Mopeds are legal on public roads, but not on non-motorized paths or sidewalks. Riders need a helmet and a driver's license (but not a motorcycle endorsement). The moped must be registered, but the fee is small. I think that this would be a perfect avenue to legalize fast / powerful electric cycles ... except for the fact that registration requires a federal vehicle identification number (which certifies that the moped meets all federal motorized vehicle safety standards) and most of these machines do not have that. I believe that the law should be changed to allow the owner to demonstrate or upgrade to include certain safety equipment (e.g., mirror, brake light, etc.) instead.

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pvirushunter@reddit

100% agree

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CakeTester@reddit

Not sure about limited (although that could probably be arranged at significant cost by pedestrian zones talking to ebikes within the zone). You should be limiting yourself. Pedestrian zones are for pedestrians and you're only there on sufferance. As a guest you should very much limit your speed, especially if there are people about. And needless to say, pedestrians have priority every time.

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stormdelta@reddit

Sure, but there's a difference between going at those speeds and being capable of going faster - no different than other vehicles.

I think it makes sense for bridges in NYC where spaces with pedestrians are shared, but only those spaces.

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TheFlightlessDragon@reddit

I haven’t ridden in NYC, but that seems to make sense

Mixed pedestrian/ cyclist infrastructure calls for lower speeds to keep everyone safe

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JCPRuckus@reddit

It's funny because some people claim it's "ridiculous" and "for no good reason" when a majority in the EU was required to pass the law.

That there is a non-argument. The fact that the EU has that standard is not a reason that this law is necessary. Last I checked the EU is not infallible.

Understanding the specifics now, I don't agree with the NYC law, but in a place like the EU where there are many shared spaces with slow cyclists (Amsterdam cyclists average 14.9 km/h) and pedestrians, the 25 km/h limit makes sense.

As far as I can tell the this speed limit is everywhere, including routes with little (painted shoulder) or no bike infrastructure. What the average speed of a biker in Amsterdam is has absolutely nothing to do with what is a safe speed to ride on a NYC street trying to get to the next piece of real bike infrastructure (protected or limited access paths).

What United States do you people live in where bike infrastructure isn't spotty at best, and most of any ride of any serious length isn't basically in car traffic? What good are "safer" bike paths if you get run over by a car riding to the bike path?

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

That there is a non-argument. The fact that the EU has that standard is not a reason that this law is necessary. Last I checked the EU is not infallible.

My argument is not that the EU is almighty. My argument is that if the majority of all 27 nations came together and agreed on something there's probably a good reason versus "no good reason".

As far as I can tell the this speed limit is everywhere, including routes with little (painted shoulder) or no bike infrastructure. What the average speed of a biker in Amsterdam is has absolutely nothing to do with what is a safe speed to ride on a NYC street trying to get to the next piece of real bike infrastructure (protected or limited access paths).

I absolutely hate when people can't read that I disagree with the NYC law. I'm saying in NYC the speed limit should only apply to bridges and parks.

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JCPRuckus@reddit

My argument is not that the EU is infallible. My argument is that if the majority of all 27 nations came together and agreed on something there's probably a good reason versus "no good reason" as some people argue.

It doesn't matter if you think your argument is, "It must make sense because the EU says so" (Argument from Authority), or, "It must make sense because a majority of the the EU says so" (Argument from Popularity)... You're effectively making both. And both are logical fallacies. Either way it's not a valid argument.

As far as I can tell the this speed limit is everywhere, including routes with little (painted shoulder) or no bike infrastructure. What the average speed of a biker in Amsterdam is has absolutely nothing to do with what is a safe speed to ride on a NYC street trying to get to the next piece of real bike infrastructure (protected or limited access paths).

I absolutely hate when people can't read that I disagree with the NYC law.

You didn't say exactly what you disagreed with and you defended speed limits by citing the EU laws that limit ebikes to even lower speeds in hardware (thus everywhere).

Your inability to communicate fully and clearly is not a failure on my part.

I'm saying in NYC the speed limit should only apply to bridges and parks.

This is the first remotely sensible thing you've said so far... Except I'd still say it's a partial failure since you didn't say that non-powered bikes should have to follow the same speed limit as well if going at that speed is so dangerous.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

I included the the context and specific reasons in my initial comment, so my argument becomes more logically sound and moves away from being a logical fallacy, as I'm moving away from just the fact that "the EU did it" to "it makes sense in the environments in the 27 EU states".

And that's actually why it's weird you assume I think the same about NYC, because they're different environments.

Your inability to communicate fully and clearly is not a failure on my part.

It should be enough for me to say I disagree with the NYC law to mean that I don't agree with the NYC law, so if you assume otherwise, that means you have bad reading comprehension.

Give any LLM your response and my initial comment, and ask it if means I think the EU law should apply to NYC.

I clearly articulated that I disagree with the NYC law but I agree with the EU law in its own specific context (large amount of shared spaces with pedestrians and slower cyclists) and not universlly.

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jim914@reddit

I agree that the speed limits are very restrictive and we now have the 20 mph limits in Chicago for all e-bikes no matter how it’s configured. I agree it’s super risky riding city streets at 20 mph because drivers don’t like bikes already but in Chicago all the bike lanes are shared access with regular bikes, scooters and people on other electric rides like skateboards so many of them can’t do higher speeds and the bike lanes aren’t very wide to allow passing so the speed limits are a reasonable idea. My bike really only gets to about 24 mph and I’ve had guys pass me on regular bikes and e-bikes doing well more than me and it’s really dangerous especially if a car is hugging the line!

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CakeTester@reddit

In Spain, it works and works very well. Urban areas have a theoretical blanket speed limit of 25km/h. Absolutely nobody goes that speed; but it's understood by all that if you're speeding when shit happens, it's on you.

As a result, nearly everybody drives slower and the traffic is amazingly considerate compared to a few years ago. There's no expensive infrastructure required because anything capable of 25km/h can share the road. With everybody going slower, there's much less chance of fatalities if something does happen. I've been on the road with an eskate and now an ebike, and the whole system works.

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SammyUser@reddit

not to mention actually having cycle infrastructure there, however it's not only that but they want to limit faster ebikes to overpriced "EU made" (usually not even, just China as usual as an OEM with a very high price tag) junk aswell.

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Short_Redhook_24@reddit

Age restrictions are good, but E bikes have been my work around for being able to "drive", because I'm epileptic I can't get a license for basically anything that needs a license from the DMV which would kinda screw me because mine tops out at 28 but I hardly take it above 25. So it's a no from me dawg

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Sheshirdzhija@reddit

Yes.

Because this is how most people are (in EU). Vast majority of cyclists are commuters, not recreational cyclists in condoms and pointy helmets. At 15mph/25kph which is my normal riding speed on my manual Dahon I am faster than probably >95% of all cyclists I meet on the road.

And those same people are also occasionally riding through parks and other places among pedestrians.

If you make ebikes faster, you also makes those people faster, which surely lowers safety fir everyone involved.

I myself would like this see raised to 30kph, and fir throttle to be allowed. I think this would be a net benefit, because it would decrease number of cars on the roads. But I don't have any research and stats to back this up.

Next best thing would be to make s-pedelec homologation and registration easier. As it is, they are all very expensive.

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verb-vice-lord@reddit

An s pedelec is just a moped, with pedals and no throttle.

At least per law here, which makes sense to me, it's not a bicycle in any meaningful way. It needs to be registered, insured, with a licensed rider.

Bicycles don't need to be faster with a higher top speed etc. Faster = more dangerous = needs license = needs to stop coexisting with other slower traffic (ie analogue bicycles).

The places they are ridden just need to be safer.

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Sun_Storm_AK@reddit

Fast vehicle can coexist with slow vehicle everywhere. Just ride slow in slow vehicle area and no problem. If you CAN go fast, doesn't meen you have to.

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Sheshirdzhija@reddit

If you give people a chance, they will most often prove to you that they are idiots.

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Sheshirdzhija@reddit

If it has pedals, it is no longer a moped (according to classifications in my country).

30 is IMHO still a safe speed. But that is only IMHO. 25 is definitely reasonable and I can't blame anyone for making that call.

Nobodies wishes are more valid, but I too have my own. Like, a class inbetween ebike and spedelec/moped. 35kph, throttle, insurance but no registration. 30-35 is still how road bicycles ride, so not unnatural. But I imagine fir practical reasons, it would be next to impossible to enforce this. It is impossible already as it is.

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verb-vice-lord@reddit

Not sure what your country is, but the ped in moped is for pedals. Speed pedelecs are basically a grandfathered classification of the classic mopeds that had a small engine and pedals.

30mph is safe on a moped built to do 30mph wearing moped gear designed to crash at 30mph. I wouldn't do that wearing bicycle gear regularly.

If you mean 30kph, then sure it's within expectations of testing for bicycle gear.

Personally, and sure this is just my opinion, speed pedelecs would be fine insured, registered (ie number plates) but no license. The license is the biggest issue here (UK) other than the cost itself because they're so niche. Since you need a motorbike license people can just get an electric motorbike for less cost. Throttle is mostly irrelevant, at the speeds they run you're not adding a lot of power peddling anyway.

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Sheshirdzhija@reddit

About mopeds.. Sure. But.. Any vehicle that has pedals is not allowed to have a throttle. So mopeds I am thinking about, which we had, like small motorbikes with pedals, are not allowed. No vehicle class has 45kph, pedals AND throttle.

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BloodWorried7446@reddit

They need to limit not only the speed of throttle only but the duration of throttle only. I see people on these e-bikes never turn a crank for several km.

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CakeTester@reddit

If you make ebikes faster, you also makes those people faster, which surely lowers safety fir everyone involved.

Up to a point. My ebike is capable of going considerably faster than the 25km/h limit, but I'm perfectly happy toddling along at 25km/h. Having had a palm tree in the face at 20mph, 25km/h is fine for me. I needed the extra power for getting up a hill that I regularly need to access, and a 'legal' machine just wouldn't do it.

The other point is that on a more capable machine, I'm actually safer at 25km/h, because I'm very much in command of the situation. I can accelerate if I have to; and the braking systems are designed for higher speeds, so are more effective at low speeds. If you're on a legal machine that is just capable of wheezing up to 25km/h, you're going to have fewer options and you're almost certainly going to take longer to stop. Less control.

It's safer for me and everybody else if I in particular have a more competent ebike, but that's because I'm an ex eskater and an ex lorry driver, so I have road sense; and I'm old enough to not give a rat's arse if I'm overtaken.

That said, more powerful machines in the hands of the irresponsible isn't advised. Possibly there should be some form of competency test for more powerful bikes.

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Gulp-then-purge@reddit

Outside of very few fairly talented cyclists, there are very few people that can hold a 25mph on a bike. It’d bet a lot of money none of them are in this thread.

To try and sparse words is dumb. A bike that can hold 20-25mph for an actual significant amount of time is being ridden by an expert who has immense training for that ride. An ebike accomplishing the same may have an experienced rider…. Or someone on their first ride. Being purposefully obtuse doesn’t change reality.

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TheFlightlessDragon@reddit

Um, what? I can hold 20mph on a Walmart fixie bike wearing blue jeans.

I’m in pretty good shape, but I’m not a pro cyclist or whatever.

You should use a speedometer when you ride a bike, they’re faster than you think

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Gulp-then-purge@reddit

No, you cannot. Not for an hour. Get real.

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FlyByNight250@reddit

I can ride my non e 29’ mountain bike at 30mph leisurely. What is op even talking about? 15 is sloooow

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Kind-Pop-7205@reddit

I don't know. I think they live in places without hills.

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Kalahan7@reddit

No but if you use bicycle infrastructure and safety rules you can't expect to be allowed to use a vihicle that goes way faster.

Here in EU we have the 25Km/h limit for bike lanes and it makes total sense. Electric bikes are really popular here and if that limit didn't exist things would get wat too dangerous way too fast. Not to mention bicycles that aren't electric would be pushed of the road, almost literally.

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It would legally be a motorbike in Aus.

If your bike goes 20mph on a throttle, you’re not doing any pedalling. You’re just using a throttle to power your bike that has a motor on it.

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ip33dnurbutt@reddit

I can build you a pedal-powered/ pedal assist- no throttle e-bike that can do 35 mph.

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handsomeGinSwiller@reddit

Sounds sweet. It’s still a bike subject to bike rules and normal vehicle rules when ridden on the road. Just like any bike.

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JG-at-Prime@reddit

Wow. Thanks for that.

So what happens when you are disabled?

What happens when you can’t pedal part of the time?

So what then?

No e-bike for you?

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RandomPost416@reddit

You can still use an ebike, but not at speeds exceeding 15mph without putting in your own effort.

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JG-at-Prime@reddit

Unacceptable.

Disabled people have the same rights as everyone else.

Legally, accommodations must be made for equal access.

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hotsauce126@reddit

Blind people don’t have a right to drive a car

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pvirushunter@reddit

Thats not a bike then. It's something else.

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My bike has a throttle but I only use it when I need to for medical reasons. I shouldn't be banned just because my bike has a throttle in addition to pedal assist. Only bikes that operate solely with a throttle should be banned.

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handsomeGinSwiller@reddit

Congrats you and I are on the same page.

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Ironwolf99@reddit

30 mph is perfectly doable on a bicycle. You're not going to maintain 30 for long but that's the point of an ebike. The motors are to help you do what a normal bicycle does. A normal bicycle does 30.

And before you say, "Only professional athletes can do that." 1) You're wrong. 2) That's also the point.

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Humble_Ad8091@reddit

The regulations for evokes here in Niagara Falls, Ontario are the most reasonable. You can go maximum 20mph/32kph assisted or throttle on the side of the road or in bycicle lanes and the motor can be maximum 500w. No one adheres to the 500w rule, but people mostly travel at the 32km/h speed here. There is lots of people out on their ebikes here in the summer and I think the reason why it makes sense to invest into an ebike here in Niagara Falls is because of the reasonable 32km/h rule. I think the law here is that you can't ride you bycicle on the sidewalk but this is mostly ignored by some people who are not so good at riding along side traffic, such as older people, or some that are partially disabled, etc. Of course once you are on the sidewalk or on paved trails the 24km/h/15mph rule is important, and you break any established speed laws you should be ticketed accordingly $90-$120 seems reasonable if a cop sees a byciclist going 50km/h with throttle only, or if they are clearly not a speed/sport cyclist and are able to go that fast pedalling, then you know they are getting to that speed while assisted by the motor and should be ticketed in the city, unless they are riding downhill or are out on a country road.

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Dizzy_Shake1722@reddit

I swear, half of these threads are being made by chatgpt

I've seen people on human power alone going almost 30mph on a bicycle

If bikes have to bike in the street keep the speeds the same for both in the city 25mph

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WearySignature4531@reddit

20 feels very slow on my bike and that's barely pedaling.

If I pedal hard, I can easily get up to 32, which feels comfortable.

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VirgoB96@reddit

Fall off your bike at 20mph and see what the fuck happens.

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WearySignature4531@reddit

I have multiple times. Not really a big deal.

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RepresentativeHuge79@reddit

Agreed. I think my addmotor e310 trike that travels at 20mph is fast, but it's nuts when kids on electric dirtbikes blow past me on bike trails at 30+ mph

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TheFlightlessDragon@reddit

Same speed? I travel at 20mph+ on a regular bike. Other cyclists (with better bikes than me) travel at even faster speeds.

Limiting Ebikes to a speed much lower than what is doable on a regular bike is dumb.

Plus, 15mph makes it impossible to keep up with traffic even on streets with low speed limits.

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inund8@reddit

If the argument you're making is that we should enforce e bike regs based on behaviour, not hardware, I'd agree with that. Ticket people for speeding not for having a wicked fast bike. That's how it works for cars 🤷‍♂️

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saltysaltsalt_@reddit

So you agree with OP! If you’d like things to work like they work for cars, then bikes that can reach over a certain limit should require the same tests licenses and insurances as a car/motorcycle. We don’t put people on cars and motorcycles without a license with the excuse of “oh we’ll just punish them when they make a mistake” lol

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inund8@reddit

So you agree with OP!

Disagree. The consequences of crashing your car and your ebike are vastly different. What reasons do you feel make it justified to license ebike riders? If you say anything about causing inconvenience for cars I have about 5 reasons ready to fire back at that lol.

That said, if your "ebike" can hit 60mph... That's clearly a motorcycle and should be regulated as such.

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Kalahan7@reddit

. The consequences of crashing your car and your ebike are vastly different.

Once you start riding above 15mph things do get considerably dangerous for bicycles. Bicycle rides are not encaged in a metal cocoons, nor do they frequently wear adequate protection, and are way less visible in the dark and/or bad weather.

What reasons do you feel make it justified to license ebike riders? If you say anything about causing inconvenience for cars I have about 5 reasons ready to fire back at that lol.

What about inconvenience of other byclicsts. Many here in the EU, specificall the more elder population population is avoiding bycling during rush hour because byccle traffic is becoming way faster and more intense than it was 5 years ago. And that's with a 15 mph limit on bicycle infrastructure.

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inund8@reddit

You would never limit the max speed of cars because of the inconvenience to other slower drivers. If the bike infrastructure is not working for the elderly people, we should make more infrastructure, including some catered to slower riders. Don't hamper people who want to replace their car with a bike. Add speed limits for e-bikes and enforce them. It works for cars 🤷‍♂️

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Kalahan7@reddit

Inconvenience? I’m talking about danger our bike infrastructure and regulations where never made for bikes that go 20+ mph

We shouldn’t update all our infrastructure just for e-bikes to go 5mph faster. We should expand and maintain or bike infrastructure for all bicyclists.

That 5mph doesn’t have nearly as much impact on a commute as you think. Crossings and red lights have a much bigger impact.

Also good luck just making bicycle paths 1m wider here in Europe.

Also, when we do update all bicycle infrastructure to 20mph people won’t stop to go even faster.

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inund8@reddit

We shouldn’t update all our infrastructure just for e-bikes to go 5mph faster. We should expand and maintain or bike infrastructure for all bicyclists.

Agreed, and part of that would be adding extra space/lanes for faster moving traffic. Also, speed limits for these lanes too. Regulate behaviour, not bikes.

Also good luck just making bicycle paths 1m wider here in Europe.

It's a fight worth fighting. Until then, I'll be riding 30 mph on the side of the highway.

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stormdelta@reddit

Important to note that EU and US are very different here due to the stark contrast in infrastructure, distances, etc involved.

I can say with some confidence the greatest threat I've faced from other cyclists is mostly non-ebikers, typically dumbass college kids / teenagers who clearly have no idea how to ride a bike. Which is one reason why I'm fine with age restrictions on faster bikes.

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saltysaltsalt_@reddit

Inconveniences for cars are the least of my problems. It’s an inconvenience (and dangerous!) for pedestrians, which would be still be hit by objects going over 25/hr which is a high speed to be going at!

It’s about being able to stop all of a sudden if needed without injuring oneself, which I argue is much easier inside a car than on a bike where if you stop suddenly you are thrown off the handlebars.

It being able to fit in or not in paths were pedestrians are present, as a lot of cycle paths are shared with pedestrians.

I can keep going forever. In all these occasions and more going over 25km/hr sì dangerous and excessive. And if you don’t regulate it for the people, like we do for other fast and dangerous vehicles that share spaces with others, the people are going to do whatever they want and pose a risk to everyone else.

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jademage01@reddit

I appreciate your concern for pedestrians, but you seem to be getting some issues crossed. The danger for pedestrians is MUCH less with a bike going 25mph than with a car going 25mph. But your argument around

"It’s about being able to stop all of a sudden if needed without injuring oneself, which I argue is much easier inside a car"

is about the risk to the driver, not the pedestrian. The inherent risks of bikes to the user is part of what make them safer for other users, and vice versa for cars.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

I appreciate your concern for pedestrians, but you seem to be getting some issues crossed. The danger for pedestrians is MUCH less with a bike going 25mph than with a car going 25mph.

See my comment here as to why I feel it's apples and oranges despite the fact cars kill more pedestrians.

The inherent risks of bikes to the user is part of what make them safer for other users, and vice versa for cars.

Eh, part of the problem is teenagers think they're invincible. A cyclist flying over the handlebars at a pedestrian probably isn't ideal either, which could happen too.

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inund8@reddit

>Eh, part of the problem is teenagers think they're invincible. A cyclist flying over the handlebars at a pedestrian probably isn't ideal either, which could happen too.

I think this cedes your position. The reply that inspired this thread current thread was me saying that we should regulate behaviour not bikes. I feel like your response agrees with that position? Like if its reckless teens, then it wouldn't matter if they had cards, skateboards or just their own 2 feet, they're still going to be reckless, and an ebike isn't nearly as dangerous as a car.

And to your linked comments point, being on the sidewalk does not make you safe from cars. SafER, perhaps, but cars leave the roadway all the time. And even then your main complaint is that there isn't enough bike infrastructure and these populations have to share the same space. The solution is to build more infrastructure, not overly strict regulation on ebikes.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[deleted]

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Like if its reckless teens, then it wouldn't matter if they had cards, skateboards or just their own 2 feet, they're still going to be reckless, and an ebike isn't nearly as dangerous as a car.

No, that doesn't cede my position because limiting the motor assistance limits the damage they can do, since momentum is mass times velocity. It's actually better for them to be riding regular pedal bikes or skateboards than e-bikes.

A cyclist flying over handlebars at 10 mph on a traditional bike will likely cause less injury than one doing so at 25 mph on a heavier e-bike.

And to your linked comments point, being on the sidewalk does not make you safe from cars.

The point is they're 2 different spaces to worry about. I didn't say pedestrians are 100% safe on the sidewalk. My point is cars rarely hit a pedestrian directly on the sidewalk. My argument is cars are far more predictable. That's also my argument against lane splitting mopeds, which I deal with fairly often too running the red light.

You also ignored my complaint that bikes are silent and come from behind you, so it's more likely a bicycle will take you by surprise.

Cars are more dangerous but you can usually hear them coming, even EVs because they usually have noise built-in. It's more predictable.

The solution is to build more infrastructure, not overly strict regulation on ebikes.

Keep in mind I was arguing against all PMDs. That includes kickstand scooters, unicycles, etc.

And yeah it's great to say build more infrastructure but the fact is we don't have it at this very point in time so the compromise is unfortunately to allow bicycles to ride on sidewalks. There's a limited budget, opposition from a lot of residents, etc. Besides, what do you expect to do while infrastructure is being built? Just twiddle our thumbs and accept pedestrians might get hit by a PMD? But it's okay because cars are worse?

At least Top-Salamander-2525 had the decency to acknowledge that a speed limit would make sense for shared use areas like bridges and parks in NYC in his comment here. You seem anti-speed limit for some reason? Given that here in DC it's very common for bicycles to be riding on the sidewalk, I think a 15 MPH global motor assistance limit makes sense, in the same sense cars are often to limited to 25 MPH inside DC.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Like if its reckless teens, then it wouldn't matter if they had cards, skateboards or just their own 2 feet, they're still going to be reckless, and an ebike isn't nearly as dangerous as a car.

No, that doesn't cede my position because limiting the motor assistance limits the damage they can do, since momentum is mass times velocity. It's actually better for them to be riding regular pedal bikes or skateboards than e-bikes.

A cyclist flying over handlebars at 10 mph on a traditional bike will likely cause less injury than one doing so at 25 mph on a heavier e-bike.

And to your linked comments point, being on the sidewalk does not make you safe from cars.

The point is they're 2 different spaces to worry about. I didn't say pedestrians are 100% safe on the sidewalk. My point is cars rarely hit a pedestrian directly on the sidewalk. My argument is cars are far more predictable. That's also my argument against lane splitting mopeds, which I deal with fairly often too running the red light.

You also ignored my complaint that bikes are silent and come from behind you, so it's more likely a bicycle will take you by surprise.

Cars are more dangerous but you can usually hear them coming, even EVs because they usually have noise built-in. It's more predictable.

The solution is to build more infrastructure, not overly strict regulation on ebikes.

Keep in mind I was arguing against all PMDs. That includes kickstand scooters, unicycles, etc.

And yeah it's great to say build more infrastructure but the fact is we don't have it at this very point in time so the compromise is unfortunately to allow bicycles to ride on sidewalks. There's a limited budget, opposition from a lot of residents, etc. Besides, what do you expect to do while infrastructure is being built? Just twiddle our thumbs and accept pedestrians might get hit by a PMD? But it's okay because cars are worse?

At least Top-Salamander-2525 had the decency to acknowledge that a speed limit would make sense for shared use areas like bridges and parks in NYC in his comment here. You seem anti-speed limit for some reason? Given that here in DC it's very common for bicycles to be riding on the sidewalk, I think a 15 MPH global motor assistance limit makes sense, in the same sense cars are often to limited to 25 MPH inside DC.

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

Like if its reckless teens, then it wouldn't matter if they had cards, skateboards or just their own 2 feet, they're still going to be reckless, and an ebike isn't nearly as dangerous as a car.

No, that doesn't cede my position because limiting the motor assistance limits the damage they can do.

And to your linked comments point, being on the sidewalk does not make you safe from cars.

The point is they're 2 different spaces to worry about. I didn't say pedestrians are completely safe on the sidewalk. My point is cars rarely hit a pedestrian directly on the sidewalk. My argument is cars are more predictable. That's also my argument against lane splitting mopeds, which I deal with fairly often too running the red light. You ignored my complaint that bikes are silent and come from behind you, so it's more likely a bicycle will take you by surprise.

The solution is to build more infrastructure, not overly strict regulation on ebikes.

Keep in mind I was arguing against all PMDs. That includes kickstand scooters, unicycles, etc.

And yeah it's great to say build more infrastructure but the fact is we don't have it at this very point in time so the compromise is unfortunately to allow bicycles to ride on sidewalks.

At least Top-Salamander-2525 had the decency to acknowledge that a speed limit would make sense for shared use areas like bridges and parks in NYC. You seem anti-speed limit for some reason?

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[deleted]

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Agitated-Country-969@reddit

I appreciate your concern for pedestrians, but you seem to be getting some issues crossed. The danger for pedestrians is MUCH less with a bike going 25mph than with a car going 25mph.

See my comment here as to why I feel it's apples and oranges despite the fact cars kill more pedestrians.

The inherent risks of bikes to the user is part of what make them safer for other users, and vice versa for cars.

Eh, part of the problem is teenagers think they're invincible. A cyclist flying over the handlebars at a pedestrian probably isn't ideal either, which could happen too.

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AutoGeneratedName23@reddit

I stopped reading when you suggested that a car has a shorter stopping distance than a bike and that it's impossible to stop quickly on a bike without flying over the handlebars. Why are you in this sub when you've clearly never ridden or seen a bicycle before?

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inund8@reddit

So all I see you talking about is the speed people are going at. I completely agree that people shouldn't be going 25+kph in spaces where people are walking. Realistically if you're on a sidewalk in use, you should match the speed of pedestrians, and if you're separated by painted lines, there should be some signage for max cycling speed. I feel like we might agree?

That and "It being able to fit in or not in paths were pedestrians are present" which most scooters would fit in those spaces. I'd argue at least. Technically, I'd argue, this is a complaint about lack of cycling infrastructure, not any dangers specific to ebikes.

Regarding brakes... That's complicated, because any vehicle can have inadequate or poorly maintained brakes, that could result in harm or damage.

And while I do say that if your ebike can hit 60mph its a motorcycle... Every potential car guy that gets into ebikes instead is a huge win. For themselves and for society.

At the end of the day, any regulation on ebikes needs to consider the benefit of replacing cars with ebikes. Given that cars kill over 40,000 people per year, along with needing parking spaces and creating environmental problems, there are so few actual needs for regulation on ebikes. We do need regulation on batteries, and a maximum weight of the ebike to differentiate it from a motorcycle. Weight is a significant factor in the severity of an injury.

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allthebestaregone@reddit

People love to legislate bicycles because they offer so much freedom and flexibility. Get to work at the same speed as a car, oh no how very dare you 😂.

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Hot-Counter102@reddit

Why would I join a pro group? It's easy to hit those speeds with proper gears.

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pvirushunter@reddit

omg...

here is a racing club training rides

check out their speeds

http://www.guysracing.org/content/road-team

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Hot-Counter102@reddit

Yeah, but look at the format. That's a lot of distance to cover and have a 20 - 25mph average. Any of those cyclists could hold a 32mph boost for for 5min.

Relative-Display-676@reddit

we already have laws that require license, registration and insurance on anything over 30mph. all it needs is enforcement which will never happen because there is not enough manpower to police all the riced out mopeds.

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disposablehippo@reddit

So it's pretty much the same as in Europe, just with a different limit. Yet in Europe you barely see any 'illegal' e-bikes. I know they exist and I saw one on the road last year. But it's just not that much of a thing. And it's certainly not because we have any more police manpower here.

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inund8@reddit

I can hit 20mph on flat ground on a fixie, and I'm fat af. A lot of people can do 30+ on a regular bike.

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Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit

A lot of people can do 30+ on a regular bike.

The fuck they can

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TraditionalHold2822@reddit

Way to let everyone know how slow you are

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Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit

I bet you tell that to all the tour de France guys, too?

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I just can't anymore.

30 mph is fast very fast for a regular bike

YourMumsBum69@reddit

Honestly, one of the few things German lawmakers have done correctly:

Here, an eBike must a. only assist your pedaling (so no throttle acceleration), b. not exceed the speed limit of 25km/h (15mph) - or rather the electrical pedal support ends above the 15mph speed limit, so you can go faster, but it has to be done by your own strength rather than your motor. And finally c. the motor cannot exceed a certain wattage (I believe 250W is the limit to still be considered a bicycle, not needing any insurance).

I think that’s the best mix of safety and freedom. Want a bike that accelerates like a regular motorcycle? Get a license, insurance, and buy an electric motorcycle. There really shouldn’t be 12/13 year olds who participate in traffic without any knowledge about traffic laws/rules, yet going the same speed as a car.

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Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit

15mph is too slow - that's a leisurely pace on a manual bike

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stormdelta@reddit

It's too slow in much of the US at least, due to how spread out our infrastructure is and how fast the typical speed of vehicles is here.

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flippertyflip@reddit

'Typical speed of vehicles'

Do you mean the speed limit?

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Tbh that makes sense, I didn’t take that into considerarion

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flippertyflip@reddit

Do ppl adhere to the rules?

It's the same here but so many ppl have 1000w motors.

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YourMumsBum69@reddit

Mostly yes, of course there are some people who hack their ebikes, thus being way faster than allowed, but that is really rare. A lot of people also buy their ebike through their employee company bike program (basically leasing the bike for 3 years and at the end paying like 20% of its‘ original price in order to keep it). Because your bike is insured for those 3 years (damage, theft etc.), any illegal modification would void your insurance. So naturally, nobody does that.

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flippertyflip@reddit

Here (UK) I'd say those that don't adhere to the rules are mostly the food delivery guys. Anyone who has a nice ebike is generally legal.

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timonix@reddit

1000W motors are legal in Sweden, are allowed on the bike paths, and do not require a drivers license. They do however require insurance, and they need to be registered, and they are limited to 25kmh.

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Virtual_Product_5595@reddit

"A leisurely human powered bicyclist travels under 15mph."

Who put you in charge to make that definitive statement?

The LAW says that a class 1 or class 2 ebike can provide assist up to 20MPH, which might be a leisurely pace for someone who is not you. A class 3 bike can provide assistance up to 28 MPH, but can only provide assistance while someone is pedaling.

Class 3 bikes are excluded from a lot of places, which makes sense because 28 MPH is the highest class and if you do not differentiate between those classes then why have them.

If you are going to limit ebikes to 15 mph, are you also proposing giving tickets to people riding non-assisted bikes faster than that? A lot of cities have police that monitor bike speeds (and some do have low speed limits).

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Impossible_Gur_9876@reddit

I (M-75) participate in several Facebook pages for both regular bikers and E-bikers, and it has become apparent to me that there are a lot of different ways of using an E-bike. I was also a motorcyclist for more than 50 years so I have that bit of perspective.

In my mind, there is now a continuum from bicycles to motorcycles, and some people just want to go as fast as possible on their E-bikes. These people seem to be (a) commuters, and (b) idiots - always young and male. I now see ads for E-bikes that will go 35mph from the factory. These bikes are often as expensive as used motorcycles but I saw one yesterday that was only a thousand bucks. You might say, why not just buy a MC, since they are more comfortable, have better lights and brakes, and I would say they are much safer. But MC's cannot ride on bike paths or in bike lanes, so for many people Ebikes are just better than MC's.

Some states regulate Ebikes according to their max speed, but I can't see many cops patrolling bike paths to enforce those laws. They are mainly "enforced" by other riders yelling at you and giving you the hairy eyeball.

My initial reaction was to condemn those who ride E-bikes at these speeds, but now I see them as just part of the biking community - a dangerous part.

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NorseGlas@reddit

I agree with you…. But on the street if I pedal my ass off on a level surface I can do about 25mph pedaling.

.

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Awfulufwa@reddit

OP, what is a "bike"?

If a "bike" is a vehicle consisting of two wheels, then anything with two wheels is a bike. Including those "hoverboards" that cannot even compete with a 250w electric hub motor ebike. A scooter is a bike. A wheelbarrow is a bike. A wheelchair is a... well, maybe not wheelchairs.

A bike is a two-wheeled vehicle consisting of one rider operating it by manual means. The specificity is so important.

So then that brings us into the realm of what an ebike is. And additionally what a motorbike is. When you finally begin to define everything as specific as possible, you begin to see the similarities. You begin to also see the base characteristics as well. Each thing can begin a characteristic checklist:

-two wheels, check. -handlebars, check. -manual operation. Only one is applicable. -power-assisted by trigger mechanism? Only two are applicable. -on-board storage capacity, only one is applicable.

This is the reason prior laws that sought to address the ebike problem were drafted. They sought clarity by specificity. It's why ebikes with a throttle mechanism attached were outright made illegal in various states.

You need to define the terms and then that's where the fight begins. If you and a group of others can define the terms more clearly, then you have a chance to change the law or deny the law.

An ebike is not just a "battery powered" bicycle. Motorbikes also have a battery powering them. Technically an argument can be made saying earlier motorbike models and options are original ebikes. That if you removed the battery component, then it wouldn't work any longer.

It was only inevitable that ebikes would be roped in with other high-powered vehicles of similar nature and functionality. Ebikes became an excuse for delinquents and fraudsters to exploit a loophole: "to do motorcycle things, but in a controlled legal way." Which of course means bolting down a sidewalk and bypassing slow moving traffic. Or riding through a foot-traffic park and weaving through people+obstacles.

This is what happens when convenience reaches a population. This is also what happens when the market is flooded with various high-affordability models and makes. This is what happens when people continue to invest and invest while being ever so hopeful that each obstacle is finally solved, such as the battery exploding into extreme fire.

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ebikelove@reddit

"Ebikes are battery-powered bicycles not battery-powered motorcycles."

Pin this comment. I'm genuinely glad both options (and many others) exist, because I think car dominance has so many negative consequences, but an ebike is a bicycle. (I think we can blame the word motorbike for the confusion, since that word doesn't make sense when you think about it either.)

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PhilosophyLittle1664@reddit

In my city ebikes are pretty much more reliable than regular bicycles. Most roads are 50mph speed limits and going 30mph on my bike keeps me up with traffic without slowing other drivers down too much. Of course class 3 bikes are allowed on sidewalks but you have to stop for pedestrians. I would say ebike speed limits should be 20-30 depending on area and traffic flow. Ride safe and use the proper gear for your situation. Always full face protection when riding ebikes. Ride safe yall✌️

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SoSickStoic@reddit

I average 15mph on my road bike and can hammer past 25mph.

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Acsteffy@reddit

We would be better if replacing that section of I-10 with High-speed rail tbh

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lostanomaly888@reddit

Two solutions here

Solution 1.company’s start making their 50 mph bikes that they “have” to put out registered as a road legal bike purchased the same way as a car.

Solution 2. Company’s can Cap anything they want considered as a ebike at 20mph.you can still get motors with plenty enough torque to overcome any hill.

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Acsteffy@reddit

Option #3, also cap cars while we're at it. The double standard is glaring.

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lostanomaly888@reddit

They already do govern cars though? As well as having them in different classes.if it goes faster than 35mph imo you should have a drivers license especially if your on the road. And it should be purchased exactly like a car. License is needed. If you have to wait til 16 to get your license it should be the same with these high speed high torque bikes. A 12 year old shouldnt be on something capable of going 50+mph ontop of not being supervised and unlicensed and uninsured.

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Acsteffy@reddit

No they dont. You can go nearly 100mph on any normal affordable car.

All cars should be GPS governed.

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lostanomaly888@reddit

It’s at a high speed but most cars manufactured are governed to not exceed 155mph. Excluding sport cars obviously.I know you didn’t make the kid argument but it’s something that needs added into all this.And honestly gps governed cars sounds like a really good idea I like it myself,but to enforce that is impossible when there’s so many cars that would be without one. Cars have been around for a long time hard to change stuff on them now. Whereas e-bikes are relatively new.

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Acsteffy@reddit

Should be lowered to 70mph at the minimum.

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lostanomaly888@reddit

There’s freeways in Texas that have speed limits of 85 I’d say 90 at most just for passing matters.

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guymanfellaperson@reddit

Oh my god people on this sub are the dorkiest narcs in existence. People riding unlicensed mopeds to work? Kids riding electric dirtbikes on the street? Quick, somebody call the city council to file a complaint! It's complete anarchy!

This is one of the things my state does well. Legal ebikes are capped out at 25kph, before they stop providing power. Tbey also have to be pedal powered.

Legal escooters have the same speed limits iirc, but there's plenty of illegal scooters here that go as fast as cars, without any of the safety features you'd have driving in a car. I've seen some illegal ebikes as well, but not as many as the scooters.

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monkiepox@reddit

Bingo

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https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/ebikes-more-english.pdf

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FloatOldGoat@reddit

Why don't we just enforce the laws we have, and leave it at that?

We don't make Ferrari limit their equipment to 80mph, even though there's nowhere in the US where it's legal to go faster. It's understood by everyone that if you go too fast, there will be a legal penalty.

I find it much easier to just be a good human, and slow down near pedestrians, children, horses, etc. Just don't be a jerk. Teach kids that if they abuse their priveleges, they'll be taken away. Then, follow through.

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danamitchellhurt@reddit

Class 3 at 28 miles per hour is a good upper limit for most trips. This is a good speed for commuting. It gets people out of cars and public transit in certain situations. Also, travelling closer to car speed on residential streets is safer for cyclists, as there is less passing and aggression.

The addition of a Class 4, with perhaps a 45MPH limit with licensing, would be a good stopgap between Class 3 e-bikes and Mopeds. These bikes should have 203mm+ rotors, hydraulic 4-piston calipers, and kill switch levers; high-lumen headlight, tailight, and turn signals; 72V+ power train; quick disconnect batteries; standardized BT-enabled open-source user and diagnostic app; and a new universal charge port standard.

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randomusername3000@reddit

Bicycle just means “two wheels”

Therefore all motorcycles are bicycles

There’s no arbitrary point at which an electric bicycle becomes an electric motorcycle.

You can have local regulations but they will vary depending on where you live.

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Cynyr36@reddit

Imo, the line is when the bicycle stops being only human powered, but I'm gonna get downvoted for that.

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What if you put your bicycle with no motor in a car, drive it to the top of a mountain and then use gravity to ride down? You gained potential energy using a motor and no human power. Motorcycle or bicycle?

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funcentric@reddit

Although I agree with you about kids riding fast in public w/o being familiar and adhering to laws, I don't think an ebike is reasonably expected to be limited to 15mph. UK feels differently. They agree with you. Speed limit there is around there and they have motor limits of 350w instead of 750w.

Although bikes should have their limits, I also think parenting comes into play and isn't discussed nearly enough.

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SnooLemons1403@reddit

Limiting all forms of locomotion to average human running speed except cars is a clear bias.

If you were talking speeds closer to 35/40mph minimum I'd agree, or the dirt bikes that aren't even pretending to be bicycles. But 25-30mph is far too slow to actually ride them as a moped in regular traffic in the US, even if you required registration, signals, etc.

And you need to be able to actually Ride the bike. You know, like be in total control of the handle bars like when you were a kid.

If you just sit on the thing and press go, you are not actually safe.

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hyperFeline@reddit

The government can take my class 3 ebike from my cold dead hands. Backroads here are 25, its a matter of *safety* that I can keep up and I'm not reckless when I share the sidewalk. I'm not one of those pricks practically running over other bikers, my bike goes 28 max, maybe 30 on a good day. Don't even full send it all of the time these days because my battery is degrading.

Same with the throttle. A full on ban scares me. Its so much easier to start from a complete stop with it and clear intersections I normally couldn't on a manual (because who wants to wait 10 mins to cross a road as cars drive around you to turn, never doing that mess again) Not every ebike throttle is built the same, think a 20 mph limit for those is fair, and mine can bring me up to 22-24 mph.

But yea no 15 mph is way too slow, a manual bike is capable of those speeds. I think 16+ age requirement for class 2 is fair, and 18+ for class 3 works just fine. Anything that goes 30+, yea sure I wouldn't argue with it requiring an license and a more scooter/moped like treatment, motorcycle for anything faster than 40+

I literally ride an ebike because I can not get fully licensed (can't figure out how to drive and a motorcycle only license is beyond my financial capabilities and potentially skill atm) Many others can not operate a vehicle due to disability, finances, etc. Forcing them back to a manual will only cause harm. I do not miss nearly passing out every single summer day I worked to bike nearly a halfhour to work. Ebike gets me there in 12 mins and without heatstroke.

The fact that states are willing to restrict ebikes before the giant hulking trucks that any idiot can operate without more lessons/licensing tells me everything. Pretty sure more people are dying because of excessively large and heavy pick up trucks and suvs then ebikes. Angers me so much.

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Top-Salamander-2525@reddit

13 year olds can’t legally ride e-bikes and legal e-bikes do not allow throttle support above 20 mph (25 mph in NYC) or pedal assist support above 28 mph (25 mph in NYC).

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PaurAmma@reddit

Bikes with pedals and battery-powered electric motors could also be classified as hybrid vehicles (even plug-in hybrids), since humans have/are internal combustion engines.

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joecan@reddit

I really don’t want senior citizen or novice e-bike riders making rules about how fast they think cycling should be. 15 mph is slower than I ride my regular bicycle, an e-bike should not be slower because a punch of seniors and novices have all of a sudden discovered leisure cycling.

I commute to work. I ride on the street with traffic. My bike needs to be able to go faster than 15 mph. If that is too fast for you, don’t go that fast.

If you think that’s too fast for kids, demand legislation that makes parents responsible for their kids actions on bikes and scooters.

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Blitqz21l@reddit

Slight point of disagreement because trying to define an electric bicycle when a bicycle is a pedal powered mode of transportation, and lumping in all 'ebikes" is disingenuous.

The problem stems from the Surrons and Talaria types that they want to be considered as ebikes but have no pedals. They are, imo, drfinitely e-moto vehicles and need to be regulated as such.

There might be a case for things like escooters that go less than 20mph as well as ebikes that do the same, but new definitions and classes need to be made.

I'm not saying make them illegal. We don't make cars illegal because they can go faster or accelerate quicker than others, we shouldn't be doing this with ebikes, escooters, etc...

Further, we need to better define and make better infrastructure. Bike lanes, imo, need speed limits so we don't have people trying to do 45mph on a Surron or Hyper scooter in them. Bike lanes should be solely for people going standard bike speeds, which my personal opinion would be up to around 30mph.

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Dee-king3@reddit

They should figure out the drinking while driving and texting while driving before this over the speed limit while neighborhood cars smelling like weed emissions no cars with no pipes

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OrganicBuilding4146@reddit

Learning to ride an e-bike safely is a curve. You either learn or you don’t last riding for long. Not like a car you can just keep banging away.

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Gl33ful@reddit

I use my ebike primarily for commuting to and from work. I use no gas and I get some exercise. I'm in work clothes so I don't want to sweat on the way in. Cadence sensor all the way. Exercise in the way home. Torque sensor baby. I don't go over 20 mph and it only takes a few minutes longer than an auto. This mode of transportation is a game changer for energy use, the environment, physical well being and mental health.

Ebike users get it from both sides. Cyclists saying they're cheating to autos not wanting to share the road. Lighten up. Ebikes aren't in the Pelton and the more bikes the more room for the giant trucks that never haul stuff.

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Late_Duty_5745@reddit

My guess is most people on estuff do not come a bicycling background, and are basically unhelmeted, inexperienced menaces. Feel sorry for them, though - the injury rate must be through the roof.

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id8@reddit

Problem grows because of the lack of law enforcement.

We have enough laws. We need more enforcement.

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oldfrancis@reddit

Depends upon the e-bike.

This is an e-bike. It's a bicycle. It's obviously a bicycle. It can be ridden without the motor being turned on.

PeevedValentine@reddit

I was ready for a hearty debate because of the misleading title, but you had me in the second half.

Even the equipment on bicycles that multiple kW of power is massively under specced.

my hot take: E-bikes are battery powered bicycles not battery powered motorcycles.

Hot like the cores of a 1000 burning suns.

A leisurely human powered bicyclist travels under 15mph

Assertion without evidence.

It seems logical that a battery powered bicyclist should travel the same speed.

Garbage in, Garbage out. Initial assertion is made without evidence, and thus the conclusion is faulty.

When an e-bike leisurely travels at faster speeds it’s being operated as a moped or motorcycle.

Same as above.

Seeing 13 year olds ride on the roads at 30mph with traffic is dangerous.

Ah, something that is probably true! I have no doubt it is dangerous for you to see "13 year olds ride on the roads at 30mph with traffic".

Why? I dunno. But you know you best, and if you say it is dangerous for you to see that, I won't disagree.

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Johoski@reddit

IMO, I think the distinction isn't just speed, but whether a bicycle is operated by pedal-assist or throttle only.

Throttle only ebikes are just motorcycles by another name.

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auld-guy@reddit

So the need to register and license is determined by how fast the user rides? How are you going to police that?

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davpad12@reddit

Because you're always going to have knuckleheads who feel entitled to do whatever they want. In this case they want to go as fast as cars without having to follow the rest of the rules cars have to follow.

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RedGobboRebel@reddit

First, reducing unregistered eBike speeds in heavy pedestrian traffic area is important. People flying through bike lanes and crosswalks at 30+mph is untenable around foot traffic and acoustic bikes.

Do we have more details on how it will be enforced? Do the bikes need to be incapable of providing assistance past 15mph? Is this simply a speed limit like for motor vehicles? Will non-electric bikes be required to follow the same limits? Where exactly will these new limits apply? Street, Bike Lane, multiuse paths?

we can keep this simple without making normative claims about "leisurely travel speed"

if it has a throttle and can go faster than 20mph what you have is an electric moped/motorcycle. if the pedals are vestigial and by design the user is not expected to pedal the vehicle, it is an electric moped/motorcycle. If the vehicle can travel >40mph, it is an electric moped/motorcycle.

these are qualifications that can easily be put into legislation/rulemaking without making trouble for anyone with an actual ebike. If you have an ebike with a pedal assist and throttle that can do 28mph i hate to tell you this, but it's a moped.

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OutlawCaliber@reddit

Yep. Just a bicycle.

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Friendly-Ad5915@reddit

There are better definitions out there. I agree, the use of leisurely is subjective. PA has a fair but strict definition. Must have a pedal system, and cant operate over 20mph unassisted on throttle, or 750w rated motor.

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DoubleOwl7777@reddit

yeah i agree. id say 20mph limit is good tbh.

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HazelEBaumgartner@reddit

I don't think there should be a legally mandated limit, flat out. I think it would make sense to find a wattage that makes motor output comparable to a 50 cc gas motor (probably around 750 watts) and treat anything bigger than that the same way you'd treat a large scooter (which in most states over 50ccs is legally a motorcycle), but I think the speed limiter on a scooter or ebike should be determined by the vehicle's suspension and brakes by the manufacturer, not by an arbitrary limit set by a city government who doesn't know what they're talking about. That's how you get 9 mph speed limiters because "10 is scary", which completely kills any interest in e-bikes and harms the environment.

I do support 10-15 mph speed limits on sidewalks though.

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HazelEBaumgartner@reddit

To be clear too, I'm sort of just blurting out 750 watts as an example. The point where electric motors generate the same torque as a 50cc motor is probably higher. Like I said, that would have to be researched by people smarter than me.

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DangerousAd1731@reddit

Just wait till I make my electric cat legs that will carry me down the road.