Thoughts on “Manufacturer” Driving experiences?
Posted by Charles0nline@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 73 comments
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Posted by Charles0nline@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 73 comments
[removed]
trivletrav@reddit
You don’t need to spend $4k lol, just find a local autocross group and learn as much or more from them.
the_lamou@reddit
Autocross ≠ track driving. Not even close. Some of the most basic fundamental skills can carry over, but we're talking like really basic: the traction circle, weight transfer, contact patch. When I went from AutoX to my first track experience, the instructor spent half the day making me unlearn and relearn how to brake despite my being pretty decent on AutoX courses.
coffeeshopslut@reddit
What was the difference in braking?
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Completely agree. I have 5 HPDEs under my belt. Not saying I'm the best but I'm definitely average, or above average at best. My last Autocross I absolutely sucked and didn't get a clean run. Got dead last in my class and I went off course 4 out of the 5 sessions lol. I couldn't even practice anything
komrobert@reddit
I don’t think they’re comparable. From what I’ve heard at least the GM driving experience is quite extensive and you go a lot faster than autocross. Autocross is really fun and definitely requires skill but with the higher powered and higher downforce cars track time seems quite different.
trivletrav@reddit
Given the context of OPs skill level in asking the question in the first place I think he’s going to learn the fundamentals better at autocross. After that he’ll probably decide if it’s worth it to spend the money on track time/education
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
You arent going to learn anything at Autocross. Unless you really stick with it and do multiple events. The courses are very short and you just get 5 stints. You'll catch on way more doing a HPDE/Open Track Day at a track because you'll get way more consistency
coffeeshopslut@reddit
Yeah autocross is waiting, waiting, waiting, do a few runs, work for a bit, back to waiting, then a few runs - repeat.
The autocross at lime rock park where they use their mini track you get way more time. I ran a drivers clinic course there with scda and it was only about 60-90 minutes (plus some skidpad time) - but I got tired and I felt my tires getting hot and greasy after a few laps.
jondes99@reddit
What’s it like to win nationals titles after your first time? You must be incredibly skilled.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah, I love autocross as much as the next guy but driving a properly tracked prep car, on track, with professional instructors is one step above. Is it worth it? Up to you, but the two experiences aren't comparable.
For one day, I think Porsche experience is absolutely worth it, especially for the caliber of car. Some of the others are neat, but I'd only do it if it were included with my car or a multi-day event.
And you don't need to go for the manufacturer schools. There are independent options for different disciplines as well (e.g. Dirtfish). Regardless, point is professional instruction is very much a different caliber of training, and if you are doing some sort of formula experience, that's another level above.
komrobert@reddit
Appreciate your perspective! Do you think one of the shorter experiences (maybe 4H GT3RS?) at Porsche experience Atlanta would teach me anything or is it worth 2X+ to do the 2 day at Barber?
I’ve done autocross a handful of times and spent time in the canyons etc with fast cars, but that’s about it, for reference.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
If you've already had some time in the 3RS then I'd just go for a 2-day+, but at the ford school (its in NC, if you're considering Atlanta I imagine its closer? and its a better experience). I think they prep the cars better and I think the car itself is cooler.
Like 60% of the fun with the short Porsche sessions is the car itself, sure you learn, but I think its really oriented towards a 90-minute "hey you bought a new Porsche or performance car here's how to not crash it" rather than 4h+. Though I haven't done the 4h+ one, I had my wife do the mid vs. rear.
Though I'm not much of a Porsche guy nowadays and likewise I don't care much about Barber. There are folks who wax lyrical on turns 1-2 of that circuit and if you're one of those, then yeah get the Porsche one.
komrobert@reddit
Good to know, thanks. Do you think the Ford school is better than the Cadillac V Series school at Ron Fellows? I like Mustangs, but the CT5V BW calls to me haha
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Ford Racing School is the best. You are in a fully prepped race car. Thats what matters. It wont have the same cool factor as the other fancy C8s but if your goal is actually learn its the best. Its also the safest because they make you wear track suits and a HANS device.
komrobert@reddit
Yeah that’s totally fair, I guess I just might be more interested in a track capable street car than a true race car tbh.
I don’t imagine I will get into true racing anytime soon, in large part due to cost(and already having multiple cars + a bike), but being able to take my C6Z or maybe an upcoming Blackwing etc to the track once or twice a year to drive at 8-9/10ths would be cool.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
As far as the learning environment you want the race car because you'll be able to feel the driving dynamics more. It'll just a more valuable learning experience. In a street car thats lightly modified or in something like a blackwing it will be more sedated and numb. So I wouldn't get hung up on that. They use Mustang GTs and the Dark Horse and the Racing school, fully prepped with cages and stripped interiors.
If you want to just do HPDEs thats fine but heres a bit of perspective, the amount of money that it costs for you to buy the Blackwing you could do 10 - 20 of these 2 Day Driving classes and youd be a better driver than you would be if you just got a blackwing. You dont need to build a race car, and in fact its not suggested. If you want that you are better off just being a pay driver.
komrobert@reddit
I don’t want to be a better track driver in a highly modified and track prepped car if my car isn’t going to be that.
I’d rather be a good driver in a car that is more street able, kind of like Misha Charoudin on the Nurburgring. I think it would make me a safer driver on the street, too, but learning track tire grip etc is not the skill I particularly need.
Also as far as owning a track car not being worth it I disagree with you. Yes it’s expensive, but I know people who own one or share a track car and modify/tune it gradually to their liking, which would teach a lot imo as well. Being a pay driver is extremely difficult with another full time career and I’m not sure I’d even want to, so that’s a pass for now unless I happen to be very good.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I have no personal experience with Ron Fellows nor do I know anyone who has tried it (or if they have, I don't recall). Just personally not particularly interested in tracking the C8 or BW cars.
I'd be curious if they give you a discount if you ring them up though lol
komrobert@reddit
Gotcha that’s fair. If they gave me a discount I definitely would go lol.
I think you get it for free with any BW or C8 purchase as well, though I don’t imagine buying one anytime soon but maybe I’d try to get the final year (2027?) CT5V BW if I could somehow afford it..
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
HPDE and track days are two completely different things. One is a tutorial the other is playing the game.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
They are the same thing.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Whenever it comes to discussing track days, autocross, etc. for some reason a different crowd comes out to bicker on semantics rather than have a constructive conversation.
By "properly tracked prep car, on track" I very clearly meant e.g. ford where they provide HANS, a racing suit, a car with due diligence on the tyres brakes etc. and its on a track surface as opposed to your local parking lot
And then people will go "oh but that's not the same as cup miata at laguna" yeah no shit where in the world did I claim otherwise?
hi_im_bored13@reddit
And even in the game, I've had my fair share of track experience, driven proper racecars, I can put a competitive time in the sim, but these guys are in an entirely different league altogether.
I don't care how good someone says they are, they have something to learn from these guys. And once you consider the costs of tracking similar cars, the experience centers are pricey but not overpriced IMO.
From those who have tried it most will say the Porsche Track Experience @ Barber is worth it over the actual Barber racing school.
(I also do like that Porsche mentions "the Barber Vintage Motorsports Museum features the largest collection of motorcycles and Lotus race cars in the world." on their own site, didn't expect that)
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Cool, your interests don't change that HPDE and track days are two different things.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Sorry, I didn't realize your comment said it in that direction. Not sure what your point is though.
Never once did I equate it to a track day with other cars, Just that experiences such as Porsche, Ford, etc. are done with properly prepped cars on a real track. I never claimed it was anything other than HPDE
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Strongly disagree. Im getting into professional racing and I'm a member at a local race shop.
The shop owner is one of the instructors at the Porsche Experience in Georgia. You will learn way more at these schools then just doing an autocross event
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Yea, no shit you'll learn more when a professional is teaching you than on your own, but you don't have to go to one of the overpriced OEM sponsored schools for that. There are plenty of HPDE's around the country for 1/4 of the price.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
You need a car to do a HPDE, and a good one, you neec to prep the car (brake fluid, pads, tires/wheels and maybe more) to get the most out of a HPDE otherwise you'll just be fighting with the car.
When you look at the big picture it costs less to go to one of these schools and get the experience.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
You clearly have no idea what HPDE is. I've never seen a single one that doesn't have their own cars set up for track use, whether it's rally driving with DirtFish, drifting with Learn2Drift or drag racing with Frank Hawley they all have their own cars.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Those are not what HPDEs are lol. Those are Racing Schools which is exactly what I'm referring too. The programs cost roughly the same as well
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
tell us what you think HPDE stands for
WarDEagle@reddit
You might wanna give this one up. While I’ve see racing schools use that nomenclature for one of their products, HPDE is commonly understood to refer to “bring your own car, we provide the instructors” events (and the acronym doesn’t imply one way or the other). Go check out the calendar for various tracks, motorsportsreg, or car club events if you want to see a ton of examples.
Also, it turns out that maybe there’s room for a difference of interpretation in the world. I’m not sure what your aggression is about with these responses, but maybe dial it back?
SprackenZieEnglish@reddit
I've only done the Porsche Experience in Atlanta, GA and can say it's 100% worth it. I think it starts at $500 for a 1.5hr session with an instructor. Best driving instruction I've ever had and it was an absolute blast.
TheDirtDude117@reddit
I did the GT3 vs Turbo and I 100% agree the cheaper ones are worth it but not the one I did at all.
It was something I felt I didn't get my money's worth and the demo things were cool for a few minutes but man they got old quick.
The kick plate was interesting and the Polished surface was SUPER fun in the 911 Turbo to play with the AWD. The wet circle track was boring but cool for aspiring clients to get the idea of the PDK skids.
The track was interesting and fun, there was a bit of traffic on my day but my instructor was good & personable.
I do wish they would have allowed passengers but for insurance reasons, I get it.
RobertM525@reddit
I did the one in Los Angeles and it was great. If I'm ever back in Southern California, I'd totally go again.
Clapbakatyerblakcat@reddit
I can’t speak to cars, but I’m a much better, safer, and faster motorcycle rider after 2 days of Yamaha Champ School.
And even though I live on a famously “extreme” mountain and thought I was a bad ass skier, taking 2 half day adult Steep classes made me much more confident and fluid in pretty hairy situations.
Don’t know how your brain works, but mine does well falling back to fundamentals. Find out what fundamentals professionals want you to build yours skills and experiences on.
hobbestigertx@reddit
Yes, if you take them seriously, they are very valuable. They teach the dynamics of driving, which is important on the street as well as at the track, and allow the owner to practice in a safe area with a coach in the car--rather than leaving a Cars & Coffee.
Do they make you a race car driver? Of course not, but if you've never had a class like this, it will really open your eyes and make you a safer driver on the street.
The overall experience of the manufacturer events is terrific and hard to beat. From a financial perspective, it is worth more than 3-5 HPDE sessions? I'd say no.
andrewjaekim@reddit
My friend gifted me a GT3 experience at PCLA.
He and I want to visit PC Atlanta and do some other cars. It’s a good time.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Your friend is amazing. I'd love to do this for one my friends lol
Thenadamgoes@reddit
I’ve always wanted to do the Land Rover experience. If I ever end up getting a new one I absolutely will do it.
ottrocity@reddit
I did one from BMW when I was taking driver's ed. Cost like $150 for a 2-day course on a weekend. Was worth it to learn what a car going out of control felt like and made me a much more confident driver.
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
100% worth it. I’ve done several of them from BMW, Mclaren and Porsche. I liked the Porsche one so much I went back for the advanced ones and got a motorsports license. You get great instruction, fantastic cars and a track without any random traffic. Just be warned it can be a lot more than $5k - I ended up buying a 911 GT3 a few days after my first Porsche drivers school experience lol.
West_Independent2551@reddit
Well at least I don't need to worry about that risk lol
Oil_McTexas@reddit
Riding with a pro driver at Porsche Atlanta was enlightening to say the least.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Ride alongs aren't fun with pro drivers 😅 By lap 1 I'm like okay cool this isnt fun anymore I'm getting nauseous and want to get out
humjaba@reddit
The Porsche sport driving school (at barber Motorsports park) is definitely the best. The BMW ones in South Carolina and California are little more than glorified autocrosses by comparison
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
For sure. The one thing the BMW one did better (I did the SC one) was drift school. Everything else Porsche was better. Barber is amazing - S1 is one of the best sequence of corners on any track imho. If you can master that you can master everything any track throws at you.
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
I’ve only heard great things about the Porsche and BMW driving experiences, seems like you’re looking to do the full track training lesson type of deal if you’re expecting to spend $4k.
$4k might seem a lot but it’s a whole lot cheaper than owning a six figure car
eneka@reddit
Also a track day can burn through a set of expensive tires too lol
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
It doesn't even to be 6 figures, to put it in perspective, my CTR costs roughly $50k. I could have done roughly 10 of these 2 Day Driving Classes and would be at a way higher skill level than where I am right now.
Shrikecorp@reddit
Much preferable to wadding a six figure car, too
Nitrothacat@reddit
I did the event at Spring Mountain you get for free when you buy a Blackwing. It was a lot of fun and I felt I learned a good bit. My lap time went from 1:25 at the start to 1:19 at the end.
I think it was a great introduction to track driving. I got to push a highly capable car I wasn’t worried about damaging and actually learn something. If it’s not a huge cost to you I’d say go for it. I definitely feel a lot more comfortable doing HPDEs now having done that event.
rks1743@reddit
It can be humbling when you are trying to stay close to the instructor while she is driving with one hand and using the radio to critique your driving while watching you in the rear-view mirror.
Igotdiabetus@reddit
Ya it was awesome
Nitrothacat@reddit
So much fun watching the 5BWs pull bus lengths on the straights then catch it in the corners. Really was a top notch experience.
SonnyG696@reddit
+1! And if it’s your 2nd car purchase you can get the advanced classes for the same promotion.
I learned trail braking and using the cars balance to correct turn in way better than any car clinics I’ve done on hpde’s
savageotter@reddit
I have done 5 or 6 with BMW on both coasts.
Also a big fan of the Porsche one. You will get the best experience doing one on a real track if possible.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Yes, absolutely.
I actually met one of the Porsche instructors. He is a driving coach and goes around coaching drivers, he has alot of experience in IMSA GT3, GT4 and everything down to WRL Endurance, Sebring 12 hours, NASA, and just about everything else.
If you can go to the Ford Racing School, its one of the best in terms of learning and a safe environment. You only drive street cars at the Porsche school, and you have no HANS device. At Ford you are in a fully caged race prepped Mustang and you get a HANs device. It is well worth it! I am planning on going to a 2 day event in September.
He recently changed my perspective on my approach to get involved with racing. I wanted to buy a Camaro ZL1 1LE to learn how to drive a fast car and a fast pace. For that same amount of money (~$65k) I could do 13 of these 2 Day Racing schools and would get way more valuable experience than just buying a Camaro ZL1 1LE and just doing HPDEs. Street cars are good but driving race prepped race cars are a completely different experience and when you have instructors with you, they'll be able to improve your skill.
Im by no means a fast driver but Im above average and I'm hitting a ceiling where I just do HPDEs and feel like I'm not improving because I don't really know what I'm doing. The instructors at my local track are mostly concerned about safety (which is fair I get) but every time I take one they tell me that they have literally nothing else to tell me lol.
Getting the Garmin or some data recorder would help but honestly I wouldn't even know how to decipher the data. Paying for driving lessons is actually way more expensive then doing these Driving schools. You'd be way better with the driving school because all of the price from servicing the vehicle, and the instructor is baked in.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I agree with the general gist but also when you eventually sell that Zl1 1LE you are going to get the vast majority of your money back
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
Not of you track it lol
Insurance + consumables is going to drain you, but I get your point 😅
I might get it eventually but right now I'm nowhere near where I want to be as far as skill. It just depends on what you want at the end of the day. Im serious about getting involved and Motorsports so I genuinely want to get my skills and then be a pay driver for W2W racing
verdegrrl@reddit
Backroads don't allow for the kind of consistent repeatability you get on a track. Nor can you approach the limits or exceed them safely. However, before spending the big money, start locally using your own car.
Hooked on Driving runs a nice safe structured learning environment, if not as indepth as the dedicated schools. Some other orgs near your area might offer schools as well (using your car). The SoCal Audi club also runs a fantastic school.
Doing one or two of these allows you to get used to pit procedures, flags, etc. Once you have some fundamentals, you'll be in a better spot to take advantage of more advanced (and expensive) schools.
Skills are perishable, so yes, regular attendance is required to keep in top form. That said, you will retain some basics.
TowJammer212@reddit
AutoX and HPDE events are far more skill provoking that a Manufacturer DE.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
If you are starting you really are going to be completely lost tbh
myCarAccount--@reddit
PEC is great too, if you want to dip your toes in
PugDriver@reddit
I did this with Audi back in the early 80's when their quatro system was introduced. Some classroom discussion, then got to test handling driving on simulated ice, and drive in a timed race circuit. This was a free invite back then.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
That must have been a blast.
Unfortunately Audi has been a shadow of its former self when it comes to racing. They have been pulling the plug left and right.
Jesburger@reddit
I did the 1 day Bronco OffRodeo and it was amazing
Promit@reddit
I did two days at Ford and it was amazing. Have heard Porsche Atlanta is great too, might go some time.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit
It would be better to stay with the Ford Driving School. I know one of the instructors at the Porsche Atlanta schools and he tells me to go to Ford lol. Ford uses race prepped cars and HANS devices so it is more safe there
shellmiro@reddit
The Porsche ones are 100% worth it. You get to drive their whole range of cars for less than what a decent trackday would cost.
starfishy@reddit
I did the discounted Ron Fellows class when I bought my Corvette. Two amazing days driving on track, with excellent instructors taught me so much about my new car and about driving on a track at the limit. It would have been worth full price easily. All my classmates also enjoyed it a lot. I am going to take the next class up to learn more.
r00000000@reddit
No, the cars are too powerful for beginners to learn on, better to just do HPDE and racing sims. I find that whole stuff like physical feedback sucks on racing sims, at least with an entry level setup, it helps with your muscle memory a ton and it does really help you learn the theory aspects of racing.
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