What would it take to make an “Enthusiast” EV
Posted by Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 175 comments
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Posted by Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 175 comments
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whimsicalfoppery@reddit
I don't think that imitating a combustion engine can ever measure up. Fake sound, fake shifts, etc. are just rubbing salt in our wounds. A good EV would have to stand on its own merits. It would have to be compelling in some other way. I don't know what that could be, but I won't say that it can't be done. Yes, it would have to have a primary focus on handling.
FailFastandDieYoung@reddit
I think China is excelling at this.
It helps if you abandon the idea that a car must be a tactile driving experience.
If you reframe it instead that a "car = luxury sitting room", you can play with materials, lighting, scents. You can add more theater and high end audio features.
Or instead of how car enthusiasts fawn over steering feel or suspension settings, it'll be like how handbag or jewelry collectors view pieces. X brand has knurled rose gold switches, or Y brand has saffiano leather cupholders. This model's dashboard wood only comes from the finest Lydenburgia trees found in Namibia.
Things of that nature.
AKADriver@reddit
There have always been luxury car enthusiasts, but to me that stuff is not just uninteresting but actively makes me hate a car.
FailFastandDieYoung@reddit
Your Mazda 2 has many luxury features. If they were sold and serviced in your area, very few people would prefer a Trabant or a Ford Model T over the more luxurious Mazda2.
Vhozite@reddit
Ngl this sounds absolutely terrible I hate luxury cars as it is. I don’t even like going to sit down restaurants nicer than Texas Roadhouse. I like my cars raw and unrefined.
strongmanass@reddit
EVs are already superior at luxury IMO, and China's fierce competition pushes the price of entry for features like that down to mainstream car levels instead of Rolls Royce. And that's what Jaguar intends to do and people have been losing their minds (how they chose to present that direction is only part of the outrage). BMW also does that a bit with the i7 and I've seen people criticize the interior for "pandering to China" (particularly with the rear passenger screen doors and the automatic opening doors). But all I see is a great luxury car.
Steering feel and suspension are both possible with EVs and can enhance the luxury or sporty experience depending on manufacturer goal. Porsche's new hydraulic ZF suspension is only available on the Panamera PHEVs and Taycan because of the large instantaneous power requirement. And Hongxi I think uses a similar system for their luxury car.
Independent_Ad_29@reddit
I would add in the ability to engage in the "mechanics" of the car where you can pull it apart fully (including the motors) and modify it however you want, not have it stupidly software locked and "updated" like my goddamn phone. I already build custom PCs, I want something different for my cars.
hehechibby@reddit
Some manufacture just needs to hoodwink everyone by coming out with an 'ice' sports car with the engine bay aesthetic, shifts, sounds, revs and all only for them to hit us with a 'it was just a prank!' and reveal it was an EV all along
inaccurateTempedesc@reddit
Primary focus on handing is the way to go imo. An EV that's lightweight and has loads of downforce would be a lot of fun.
El_mochilero@reddit
The sound and shifts are only part about imitating a combustion engine. It’s more about finding ways to make the experience feel engaging and unique, which I support.
BabyCakes426@reddit
I know it’s controversial, but I liked the charger Daytona and felt it was the closest thing to a challenger I’ve ever driven as an EV for better or worse. The sound actually suits it, but the problem is it doesn’t shift. It sounds like it revs to 3-4000 rpm in track mode and just kinda stays there. It needs to vary a bit more as you drive.
Other than that, the car felt like a big muscle car and was plenty engaging and took off like a rocket thanks to the awd.
stav_and_nick@reddit
I do think that manual EVs (and real manuals, not fake) are probably going to come about eventually
Yes they are technically pointless, but by that definition manuals themselves could be arguably pointless compared to a DCT
MrEs@reddit
It's going to be hard without a manual and with all of that weight 🤔
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
The attachment to a manual is a weird one. Engines use them because they have narrow powerbands that need to be managed across the vehicle’s speed range. If engines had power delivery similar to electric motors, you can bet there would never have been a multi-ratio gearbox installed in a vehicle, and nobody would have an irrational obsession with towing through gears.
MrEs@reddit
I appreciate your perspective, but disagree.
Bought my first auto last year and it's subjectivity better in every way, 0-100 in 3.7sec, dsg, incredible brakes, etc.
But man its boring as crap lol. Miss the theatrics of my old manual wrx. Already looking to sell this thing and get something more engaging to drive.
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
I said nothing about my own personal tastes - I own 2 manual vehicles, a 91 Integra and a GTI 337. I’m just saying it is a funny thing to want to have in a car. In cars with engines, you can’t get away with not having a multistage gearbox. It is there because it needs to be there whether you want it or not. With an electric drivetrain, a multistage gearbox would exist solely as a big fidget spinner for the driver.
You can bet that if F1 was able to eliminate the gearbox from their cars, they would.
If superautomatic espresso machines could make espresso as good as manual machines, you’d still have people that buy manual machines, because they like the ritual. Manuals gear shifting is analogous- it is an automotive ritual at this point, no real practical purpose for having it anymore.
aceogorion1@reddit
Eh, it's also a point of engagement that can be done wrong. You can miss a shift, miss a gate, drop the clutch too hard and blow the tires off. The extra dimension isn't "better", but it does provide an opportunity to work on a technique. With the right car it makes just getting down the road as quick as the tires can carry you require effort.
Admittedly, there's not much to go really wrong at a couple hundred horsepower, or if the only result of spinning tires is a front tire fire... But at 3 to 4 hundred with little enough tire, at least three gears to get through to 100k, and the back tires threatening to pick a path other then straight (both from the lsd and lack of traction control) there is definitely more to focus on.
LunchWillTearUsApart@reddit
A transmission. Not a simulated one, a real one.
Make it three speeds. 2nd is default EV driving. Just leave the clutch in, and it functions like "Drive." 1st is tire-shredding, battery draining track mode. You'll need skill and a sense of feedback for launching. 3rd gives you top end for the quarter mile (an EV weak spot) and range on road trips.
Make it the best shifting manual possible. Short, slick, precise throws. That perfect, Honda-like tactile feedback when the gear engages. Make the trans legendary on its own merits.
Yes, regen braking will be different in each gear, but that's a feature, not a bug.
2fat2flatulent@reddit
It doesn't work like that. Most EV motors have a flat maximum power curve beyond a certain rpm and the power output of a motor is primarily dependent on the power output of the inverter, which would be determined by the accelerator pedal position. Having a 3rd gear would be kinda useless.
stav_and_nick@reddit
Honestly, at this point I think automotive and watch enthusiasts are going to be similar. Just as people into mechanical watches won’t want quartz because it doesn’t have a “mechanical soul”, most won’t want EVs, even if the EVs would be objectively better
ThePizzaDevourer@reddit
I think transmissions make this exact point. By now, DCTs are objectively better in performance and capability compared to manuals. But lots of people still prefer the feel and engagement of a manual, even if a DCT is objectively better in every statistic.
MyName_isntEarl@reddit
Yep. I know a well sorted DCT has me beat, but I still want the process, input and sensory feedback of shifting my car.
My transmission has upgrades for firmer, more direct shifts, the short throw shifter I have is very direct and mechanical in feel. I can feel what's going on with the transmission as I shift, and there is a satisfying click of the shifter hitting the adjustable stops in each gear. Going from 2nd to 3rd with the heavy centering spring is great, pretty much just slam the shifter up and it sucks itself in there.
Just can't be beat.
I don't think most people really understand it.I restored the car, I've designed my own steering components, I've had the transmission apart on the work bench to do the upgrades, I've had the engine ripped down as far as I can without pulling the crank and pistons. I've done half a dozen different exhaust builds of my own design to get the sound right... And it all comes down to getting the car to having its own personality. I know everything about that car, and I enjoy driving something I put so much effort in to building.
Independent_Ad_29@reddit
This right here. This is why true enthusiasts won't own EVs. They are great as commuter appliances and that is the appropriate application for 90% of the population but true enthusiasts (not charger bros) need to engage with the hobby and electrification and overcomplication make it impossible to do so.
strongmanass@reddit
This is just the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Is James May not a true enthusiast? He owns several EVs. What about Jay Leno? He also owns a few. Mate Rimac and Christian von Koenigsegg must not be true enthusiasts either.
The hobby is driving for the enjoyment of driving. And you can do that whether the car is an EV from 1895, a manual transmission with carbs from 1956, a robotized manual from 2003, a torque converter automatic from 2017, a DCT from 2023, or an EV from 2025. What powers the car doesn't stop you from trail braking into a corner, feeling for the limits of grip, managing slip angle, and getting back on the power as soon as you can. Or from overlanding or mudding. Or from going for a long Sunday cruise with your grandkids. There are different kinds of enthusiast.
Independent_Ad_29@reddit
I think we can both agree on there being different types of enthusiasts.
Unfortunately, this argument can be applied to anything. One can be a tech enthusiast and get vehicles for all the self driving tech that is being developed. One can be a "luxury" enthusiast and buy a rolls and a chauffeur and it would still somehow apply to cars.
The point is, there are many different "enthusiast" definitions and the lines are completely arbitrary. So I guess the importance is defining the term.
My definition is people who like to "engage" with the cars. It goes beyond engaging with the driving aspect. It goes to engaging with the maintenance aspect as well as the cultural aspect around it. It's not everyone's definition and I don't expect it to be, so you are right. I should have been clearer and should not have tried to force this definition on everyone else here.
And also, by my definition of "car enthusiast" you can absolutely own EVs, but most of the people you've mentioned also have supercars that they regularly "engage" with. If I had a 10 car garage I would also probably own a self driving EV that my fiancee can take to work and back.
strongmanass@reddit
We have very different definitions of "enthusiast". Mine doesn't require knowing or caring about doing the maintenance yourself. For me you just need to keep the vehicle in proper operating condition; it doesn't matter whether you can rebuild an engine or you take it to a mechanic to top up the fluids.
If I think about other hobbies, you don't need to know about bicycle maintenance to be a cyclist. The person who stops in at their local LDS every month is as much a cyclist as the person with permanently black hands doing daily inspections for chain and sprocket wear. And you don't have to care about cycling culture to be a cyclist.
It doesn't seem reasonable to me to hold car enthusiasm to a different standard from other hobbies. My main criterion is enjoying and operating the automobile as a driver. Maybe there's a distinction between "driving enthusiast" and "car enthusiast" and I'm describing the former and you're describing the latter.
Independent_Ad_29@reddit
Yep, that's exactly it. I think the lines are absolutely arbitrary and frankly whatever makes whomever happy is fine by me.
My issue is when "decision makers" either political or business, make decisions that inevitably lead to the eradication of one or the other hobby. I think everyone can agree that loss of diversity is sad.
MyName_isntEarl@reddit
I can see myself retrofitting an EV system in to something like an old 80s GM pickup some day. It would still be a very basic vehicle, no fancy screens, it would still have its knobs, buttons and sliders. Would be great for loading up the dirt bikes or getting building materials.
I don't want what a tech bro thinks a car should be. I'd prefer more of a mad max vibe over a tron aesthetic. Give me a "dumb" EV.... The dewalt drill version of a pickup. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Battery pack under the bed, front and rear motors, and a charge port. Maybe that's my next project.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
I would hate for things to go that way only because the most exciting engines would fully be out of the reach of the average car guy. Like you and me
aka_mank@reddit
checks flair
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
What do you mean?
golden_glorious_ass@reddit
An average car guy will probably have 1 dedicated car. Maybe two if they have a daily/truck/winter beater and their dedicated "enthusiast car"
Idk how anyone can say that they're just an average guy with having an frs and 911 and a tesla. The frs and 911 are pretty much the same car but one is a cheap/entry level version and the other is the old money/expensive version of a rwd boxer car. Then you have a tesla which is most likely a grocery getter.
I wouldn't say i'm broke. But the insurance alone for those 3 cars will most likely eat up my monthly budget.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
What’s crazy is the FRS actually costs more to insure than the other two. Makes absolutely no sense to me.
The FRS and 911 are totally different cars though. They feel completely different to drive. I’m not saying one’s superior, but they’re definitely not the same vehicle.
I had to make a lot of sacrifices and get really creative to make this garage setup work. Yeah, it’s probably not typical, but I don’t like to think of myself as better or different from other enthusiasts just because I happen to own more cars. If anything, probably worse because I clearly can’t decide on a two car solution
MyName_isntEarl@reddit
You're paying for the actions of all the boy racers that have destroyed their FRS. As they get cheaper, I bet rates on them go up as the end up in progressively less responsible hands.
Topikk@reddit
Your flair indicates a significantly higher budget than an “average car guy” and you likely won’t have the issue you’re describing.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
That’s dumb. Even if I if I can afford for the market to shift that way doesn’t mean I shouldn’t care about what’d happen to most people. It’d push a lot out of the hobby and just make it a room full of snobs. Just look at most watch groups on here.
TheElRojo@reddit
I agree with your points, and would add: if manufacturers can’t sell a lot of the vehicles, they won’t take the risk of building halo cars or other driver cars and focus on what sells.
Bulldog78@reddit
Pretty sure the emphasis on “exciting engines would be fully out of reach for people like us” was confusing to the commenter as your flair shows a 911 and a Plaid. Those aren’t cheap cars and are definitely out of reach for 80%-90% of folks. You have both. No judgement here but some may consider that as tone deaf given the subject matter.
DetroitLionsEh@reddit
If you own a home
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's the caveats around them that limit uptake, mainly - especially purchase price, and the logistics of owning one if you don't have the ability to charge at home (and most commonly in a single family home so that charger is guaranteed to be available), towing or taking one on road trips.
withsexyresults@reddit
But aren’t apple watches popular among mechanical watch folks. Same way car enthusiasts have both EV and ice for their different experiences
stav_and_nick@reddit
>But aren’t apple watches popular among mechanical watch folks
In my experience? Absolutely not. They're dogged on as NPC watches among the circlejerk. Not that the circlejerk actually matters much the same way as a button having manual turbodiesel wagon is the circlejerk in r/cars, but still
cerohero32@reddit
Pattern it after hobby-grade, electric RC cars. This would mean: easily replacable, standardized motors so 3rd parties could offer more powerful motors with different tuning, swappable gear sets (pinion and spur gear on an RC, probably not quite as simple for a real car) that sort of thing. That way you can keep tuning alive without even having to mess with software.
Vhozite@reddit
In no particular order:
Losing weight
Significantly better looks (less Model Y, more Charger Daytona)
Less focus on tech and luxury
Other unique driving features (4WS, selectable power splits, active aero, etc)
EVs already have speed covered so I didn’t mention it.
preludehaver@reddit
Make it pleasant to drive and look nice. Imo it probably wouldn't be that hard but enthusiast cars are not popular or profitable like they used to be so its not worth it for manufacturers to even try.
Everyone scapegoats EVs as inherently lame but its not like new ICE cars are any more enthusiast oriented vs their older counterparts
Vhozite@reddit
I feel like the this one of the most overlooked aspects. EVs are overwhelming bland to look at. The focus on aerodynamics has led to smooth blob after smooth blob. The Taycan and Charger Daytona are the only ones (that I’ve seen) that have any charm.
yamsyamsya@reddit
It's called a Porsche Taycan
r00000000@reddit
Are range and reliability issues with the Taycan? I've considered it but I've heard they're pretty unreliable and in my POV when you're an enthusiast driving a car hard, you need the range to get to/from backroads/tracks (do they even take EVs?) and you're burning it extra quickly with hard driving, then components are gonna take an extra beating from hard driving on potentially rough roads, and I've heard concerns about the Taycan's battery fragility.
Seref15@reddit
Its a Porsche. It's not going to be a toyota.
r00000000@reddit
I've Porsches are generally pretty reliable though, just high costs for labour and parts, and that the Taycan was especially unreliable.
strongmanass@reddit
Yeah there have been battery recalls and various electrical system oddities and inconsistent faults. 2022+ is stored to be better, and the refresh this year is supposed to be much better, but you have to comb through old forum posts to get a good idea.
strongmanass@reddit
They Taycan's unreliability isn't because of expensive components tuned for performance instead of longevity. It's because the battery is crap and they have teething problems because it's Porsche's first EV.
Rebellious_Rabbit@reddit
Cross Turismo 🤤
RobertM525@reddit
GTS Sport Turismo is the more enthusiast-oriented one. (It's the wagon without any off-roading pretensions or body cladding.)
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natesully33@reddit
Going fast and pulling G's is fun, as is off road and doing truck stuff. Uh... EVs do those things right now, guess I'm good. As a generalist enthusiast I like new automotive experiences like doing EV road trips and off-roading in silence too.
I really want an EV Miata-like thing though. I don't care about weight, just make it small, convertible, inexpensive and simple. 300+ mile range so it's usable for road trips. No gimmickry with speakers and shifting, make it true to what it is, it should have smooth, effortless, lagless power and maybe some (real) gear noise to add a little flavor.
Really, just do a modern version of the Tesla Roadster but not as some supercar with big numbers that costs way too much, keep it simple. Like a Miata.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The light weight is the secret sauce to the MX-5. Otherwise you just end up with something like a Volkswagen Eos.
natesully33@reddit
Sorta. I think it's a combo of solid suspension design, RWD, size (or lack thereof), where the weight is, simplicity and not having a roof. I've owned 3 so far plus some heavier sports cars and I just don't see weight as the be-all, end-all spec anymore. It's nice to have... er not have but there's way more going on when I drive than just "how much does the car weigh?".
I do expect my hypothetical EV-Miata to drive differently from an ICE one, in part due to more weight and it being down low, but that's OK. It would be a new kind of experience which is part of the appeal.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The problem is that your hypothetical EV MX-5 then becomes the same as any other generic electric performance car, except without a roof.
The enthusiast appeal of an MX-5 is its dynamics, not because it develops huge power or massive grip with wide sticky tyres. Otherwise VW could just chop the roof off a Golf R and create an instant competitor.
natesully33@reddit
Hot take - Miata dynamics are not that great. They roll around quite a bit and hang out on their bumpstops at autocrosses, especially the NA generation. With the ND Mazda explained the roll is on purpose, so you can feel the car work - that's not a bad thing, just something that may or may not be objectively "good dynamics". Other cars, like the C7 I'm most familiar with, corner flat without being any harsher on the street and develop way more ultimate grip with crisper turn-in. And all that despite being 3400lbs, which according to some comments is "too heavy".
But Miatas are still more fun because small and no roof, though. I'd rather have any generation of one on the street than a C7 that requires dumb speeds to really come alive. I think an EV Miata is still going to be a very different thing to drive than say, a Performance 3 or Taycan for that reason - it'll be designed around street feel rather than big numbers and lap times.
Comfortable-Total574@reddit
I daily drive a 24 Model 3 Performance, so I can tell you what I feel it lacks. First and foremost it needs less nannys. You're just not in control. A computer manages the power 100% of the time. Thats not fun. I want to drive the car... second, it needs to lose weight. The talk about solid state batteries is focused on how theyll double range. Screw that, I have plenty of renge, give me the same range at half the battery weight. The car would be far more fun at 3500lbs (500lbs of battery shaved off). Aside from that I want guages. Show me battery temp, engine temp, max discharge rate available, etc...
natesully33@reddit
If you don't want software interference in a 3/Y, disconnect one of the ABS wheel sensors, that'll set an error that disables pretty much everything. Do this only on a closed course with a professional driver, obviously.
libcg_@reddit
Isn't that what track mode does?
Comfortable-Total574@reddit
Track mode brings up a diagram of the car with stats on it, but it's not in front of your face, its on a screen in the middle of the car. As for traction control and stuff, nope. You can adjust the computers behavior but ultimately it's still 100% in charge. For instance, if you enable drift mode it will let you slide around corners but it's just a trick where it allows some predefined amount of wheel spin only if the wheel is turned. A gimmick.
Available_Win5204@reddit
Even in track mode you find it too restrictive?
thecanadiandriver101@reddit
EV with good EPS steering, RWD, good suspension tuning.
Done.
Y-19@reddit
This for handling and steering feel
Petrifalcon3@reddit
The biggest thing is finding a way to get rid of that electric whining noise that the engines make. Unfortunately, any electric engine thats powerful enough to move a car is going to make that noise. And its a noise that gives me a headache, even in hybrids, let alone actual electric cars
Logitech4873@reddit
Why do you want to take away the sound? How can such a small sounds give you headaches? You'd fall over dead in any other car.
Petrifalcon3@reddit
It's not the volume, it's the pitch
Logitech4873@reddit
Which is different from car to car. It's a low hum in my 2024 model 3 because of the sound dampening.
Petrifalcon3@reddit
There may be exceptions, but every electric car or hybrid I've been in has had a high pitch whining sound, whether it's the primary sound or an undertone.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
Weird. Been in some powerful Evs and never found the noise to be annoying. It’s always been barely noticeable
Petrifalcon3@reddit
It may be barely noticeable to you, but its their, and even when its faint, it gives me a pretty bad headache if I'm in the car for more than a few minutes
Logitech4873@reddit
Sorry that makes no sense.
cilantno@reddit
Have you been diagnosed?
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
I’ll try and keep an ear out. Something I never considered but I can see how it would be annoying they don’t tend to have the same complexity in sound as ICE it’s more of one note being held. If the note is grating to you then you never get a break
Y-19@reddit
Lightweight for me.
Bulky_Quantity_9685@reddit
Not sure what exactly can be made to make it fun for everybody, but for myself I made an iPhone app with different acceleration sounds which are changing with motion. I wanted to make it fun and added some fun sounds like Spaceship or Horse Gallop. After I liked it myself, I decided to share it. It’s called Motion Beats and available in App Store if that’s useful for anybody (app is free and default sound is free, but others are paid)
SurprisedByItAll@reddit
I'd like it to fly like a drone. A pod fing traffic would be amazing OR like a hover craft to go over grass, rivers, whatever and get around traffic. Basically remove or get around impediment to moving. Always able to move. That's the one I want.
mgobla@reddit
Lower weight. Carbon monocoque, small battery, small wheels.
Amish_country_Rich@reddit
For myself, its not about being fun, its about being realistic and practical, so its an ice vehicle all day long for me. I'm not getting caught-up in the flavor of the woke moment, its about what works for me!
GryphonGuitar@reddit
Basically a Tesla roadster Mk1.
Logitech4873@reddit
A roadster MK1 but engineered and built more properly with modern motors and battery would be pretty cool.
GryphonGuitar@reddit
Exactly. Small, nimble, light, absolutely top tech.
Prestigious_Shirt652@reddit
10 Premium Speakers
Logitech4873@reddit
Model 3 then
BiglyBirdWuzHere@reddit
You seem to ignore the fact that EV enthusiasts exist. I wouldn't touch another ICE. They're boring.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
Then what would you want out of an EV sports car? You’re probably best to answer the question since you already love them and have no ICE hangups
strongmanass@reddit
Not the person you asked but for me it's a convertible with multiple motors and selectable FWD, RWD, or AWD, torque vectoring, a range of at least 300 miles of spirited driving with full power down to about 10% battery, and weight distribution similar to a mid-engine car. Basically the perfect sports car for me is a baby convertible Rimac Nevera (or Pininfarina Battista since they actually made a convertible for Michael Jordan).
Ideally I'd like it to weigh under 4000 pounds, but if Porsche came out tomorrow and said the electric Boxster ticked all those boxes for $90K but it was 5000 pounds like the Nevera I wouldn't care about the weight.
BiglyBirdWuzHere@reddit
Drop top
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
Awd or RWD is good range a must?
BiglyBirdWuzHere@reddit
My boxster war rwd so let's go with that but I bet a lot of other people want AWD.
alehanro@reddit
To make an “enthusiast” EV, it would take people becoming enthusiastic about EVs and sporty driving. Most fall into one or the other (or neither; soo many people in the world don’t understand our obsession with “transportation”) but only a very very few fit both.
To me, even if electric has phenomenal acceleration, it will never be a true sports car without an ICE; just a life sized toy replica of a car. Like an upscaled RC car or a glorified go-kart.
strongmanass@reddit
Tell me about it. And because that's such a small group there are basically no such cars out there at a reasonable price. And the only publicly known exception in the Porsche 718 keeps getting delayed. So there continues to be no sports EV in western markets.
On a related note, it's shortsighted to call EVs fundamentally boring because unless someone has driven one of the handful of modern sports EVs ever built, they can't compare EVs to something like a Corvette or 911 to say how exciting they'd be.
dnyank1@reddit
My "enthusiast EV" is fun for me, thanks! My dual motor Polestar 2 is every bit as rewarding to drive as my Cadillac CTS 2.0T was despite the lack of "soul" - mostly because of how responsive it is.
Honestly. Do I miss the exhaust note sometimes? Sure... but the on-tap throttle response in the twisties and hand-of-god levels of torque off the line MORE than make up for it, for me.
BEEPBOPIAMAROBOT@reddit
I haven't seen anyone mention this yet - you can't track an electric car. I'll fill up the gas tank 3 times on a good track day. What happens when my battery runs out? First, there has to be a fast charger nearby. If there is, it has to be available. Then I have to sit there for half an hour. Track days aren't cheap, missing sessions is just pissing money away.
Even if EVs were as fun to drive they'd still be a hard sell to enthusiasts that track their car.
DetroitLionsEh@reddit
GM revives the Fiero
165” length
~3400 LBs
Rear mounted motor
MyName_isntEarl@reddit
GM did the fiero so dirty.
That car could've been an absolute track weapon.
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
Do you mean mid engine or do you have a death wish?
DetroitLionsEh@reddit
It’s an EV so I mean rear engine
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
Oh I’m dumb lol, heard fiero and completely abandoned the EV part
tokhar@reddit
For me it’s weight, which affects all the bits relating to handling, and road feel. EVs still struggle in both, especially if you also want normal range (which translates to not a lot with “spirited”driving). I haven’t driven an EV yet that communicated well around a choppy corner, or didn’t feel ponderous when shifting weight around the contact patches.
SunnyDthaGod@reddit
Something I wonder about from a thread about the iconic SP is how generators could work alongside smaller low-range batteries in the future. Like Mazda is trying to revive the rotary in the form of a generator for the battery of the SP (doubt it happens), but I could see a future generator being able to offer the noises one might want from a sports car while keeping the EV identity of the car. Hopefully future battery tech allows for lighter weight, although cutting out the rear seats and trimming the interior tech could also help. Idc about having a manual, especially in an EV, but I can see a future where light 2-passenger EVs with small generators could at least mimic the noises and agility of a light ICE car. Of course they'd be limited to halo cars, but impractical stuff will always have a place.
Wingbreaker2@reddit
Good handling, good feedback from a communicative car, and good styling.
I think a lot of the holdup is that most EVs right now either look like bland SUV mush or econoboxs.
Look at the rimac nevera.
You can't tell me that doesn't get you a little bit excited. Looks are a part of the ownership experience, it's the first impression and the last impression as you're walking away in the parking lot.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
Fully agreed that Nevera is gorgeous. Especially in black and white. Also agree that people should take notes because appearance is a big deal.
Btw you have a monster of a two car setup. Would have something very similar if gm gave the z06 a stick. Either way it’s still an absolute riot from everything I’ve seen
Wingbreaker2@reddit
My only drawback from the car is it doesn't have a manual option. First sports car I've had without it, absolute blast to drive from every other angle and looks good with the Z07 aero. Funny enough I only miss the stick when I'm going slow and driving in traffic. When I get a chance to get into the high rpm's the engine makes me forget about it for a moment haha. GM had the chance to make it perfect, they were this close! I see a stick in my future as a third car.
If I had new GT3RS money and a connection to get one I would've went that way, probably the closest you can get to what I'd be after. Love the 911 S/C, You've got an awesome garage yourself between the three of those!
p3dal@reddit
For me? 450hp and a 3.x 0-60 while being economical to operate is all it took.
mr_lab_rat@reddit
Smaller, lighter, with focus on handling rather than crazy acceleration. 4s 0-60 is good enough.
OvONettspend@reddit
Just lean into what makes an EV fun: low center of gravity, insane acceleration, crazy motor noises. That’s it
bobjr94@reddit
No I think you are missing the point. All those gimmicks like fake engine noise and fake manual shifters generally aren't wanted by EV owners. Those are things ICE charger owners think EVs need.
Why turn quiet instant acceleration into noisy driving with unnecessary delays and power cuts when the driver goes to use a toy gearshift and fake clutch pedal to 'change' gears ? If a car has fake sounds fine, long as it can be switched off like most people probably would do after the first week.
localtuned@reddit
I'm constantly switching mine in in the i5n. I know its fake but it feels engaging.
pawpawpersimony@reddit
I love the idea of an EV Miata that keeps the car as analog as possible, sacrifices range for weight and handling. This would be awesome.
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
The i5N is on the right track. What you need is a light EV with \~500hp RWD and 200 miles of range to keep weight down. Take the i5N's simulated gearshifts and engine notes a step further with full fleshed out (and downloadable) power bands and soundtracks from legendary performance cars - everything from a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 to an F40. Fully simulate a manual gearbox complete with a clutch and gated shifter that feels as close to the real thing as you can program it to be. Use analog dials and switches to differentiate it from the budget tablet aesthetic 99% of EVs have embraced.
Sierra_463@reddit
you do not need 500hp jesus christ
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
You do if you want to create an accurate simulation of many of the great analog performance cars. You can't program in the power and torque curve from a F40 unless you're able to provide similar power and torque.
Sierra_463@reddit
You do not need an F40.
300hp, 3000lbs, go enjoy life without bankrupting yourself.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
verdegrrl@reddit
No insults
SithSidious@reddit
Aren’t you aware? There are no enthusiast cars below the F40 /s
jse000@reddit
Just drive your regular F40
GoldenState15@reddit
The ioniq 5N is pretty boring to drive. It's another one of those journalist cars where they rave about it because they drove it at a track but I've had both track time and considerable street time in it and its random gimmicks don't really make it a decent experience as an enthusiast or fun car. And that's not even considering the ridiculous price that they made it on release.
orangutanDOTorg@reddit
Light weight and emphasize feel instead of numbers.
HTTP404URLNotFound@reddit
Take the ioniq 5 N and put it in a sexy liftback body and that would be sufficient for me.
Wing25@reddit
Good handling, good feedback from a communicative car, and good styling.
I think a lot of the holdup is that most EVs right now either look like bland SUV mush or econoboxs.
Look at the rimac nevera.
You can't tell me that doesn't get you a little bit excited. Looks are a part of the ownership experience, it's the first impression and the last impression as you're walking away in the parking lot.
xdr01@reddit
Id be happy to switch to a Ionic 5N, just the price holding me back.
Potential-Ant-6320@reddit
Light weight for an EV, battery mounted behind the seat, 50/50 weight distribution. Honestly the Chevy bolt come close. It just should be RWD.
Bobatt@reddit
Chevy Bolt was surprisingly good handling.
Potential-Ant-6320@reddit
It’s got about the right level of power too. If you cut off the rear seat and with it about 500 pounds you wouldn’t need as big of a battery (which would go into the 500 lbs). That would make the car about 3,100 pounds. That’s all we need.
stav_and_nick@reddit
I do think that low range sportscars are the medium term future. Sure having a 190/200 mile EV wouldn't be practical, but like who cares? Who is taking a Miata for a road trip? Not many people
Potential-Ant-6320@reddit
I only need 150 and maybe a little more just in case. 150 gets me to my major city and back. It gets me to all my major relatives besides my grandma and o can hit up my grandma, fully charge and go back. 150 also gets me to my local track which has chargers.
There is a miata EV conversion and everyone says it doesn’t have enough power and not enough range but it’s exactly the power and range I would want as a guy who daily drives a miata.
If you take a Chevy bolt, drop the backseat and drop the range down to 200 miles you’re looking at a sub 3,000 pound car. Can you make that car for $40k and qualify for the $7500 credit? That car seems perfect to me.
SnooChipmunks2079@reddit
Problem is that EPA 150 becomes usable 100 on a winter day.
ypk_jpk@reddit
Everyone on r/Miata takes theirs on road trips or daily drives them. Hell there's even r/miatalogistics for crazy people and Costco runs or carrying lots of cargo
Obnoxiousdonkey@reddit
eh, i live in an area pretty close to "the woods". my canyon carving circuit is real close to 140 miles, 70% spirited driving. i'd only imagine pushing it hard enough to be fun for that long would kill that
Fearless_Neat_6654@reddit
Of all the performance-oriented EVs out there, the Chevy Bolt?! That goofy looking egg 🥚
Jaymez82@reddit
I want a street legal go kart with absolutely zero safety tech. Bare bones. Something I can take on the highway. Replace my motorcycle. 300 mile range.
backyardengr@reddit
Pistons, rods, cams, those kinds of things
Funny_things_online@reddit
Its actually possible to run a combustion engine while being zero emissions thanks to hydrogen or synthetic fuels.
Sierra_463@reddit
Burning shit is always gonna have some sort of emissions, there's no free lunch here.
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
Hydrogen fuel cells can be emission-free from electrolyzer to tail-pipe, but infrastructure costs, current technology maturity, and low round trip efficiency compared to regular BEVs make them a non-starter for a society based in capitalism, where money and cost efficiency is important.
It isn’t “burning” fuel in the traditional way, but personally, if hydrogen was a more available fuel, and I could get a PHEV FCV with a 100 mile range battery capacity, I would support that vehicle format.
Sierra_463@reddit
I'm pretty sure he's talking about hydrogen combustion though, which is uh....
pretty fucking dumb.
Weak-Specific-6599@reddit
Yeah. Burning H2 in a traditional sense creates NOX which is nasty in its own right.
Funny_things_online@reddit
Carbon neutral fuels could also save manual transmissions as stricter emissions regulations are often the reason why they are being axed in cars.
backyardengr@reddit
🤓☝️
Funny_things_online@reddit
Sadly most companies are focusing on EVs instead of carbon neutral fuels which is unfortunate.
Sierra_463@reddit
are rotaries not enthusiast cars?
backyardengr@reddit
Dorito engines are fun 🥰🥰
saipradeepkavuri@reddit
Authentic Sound Design – Not fake engine noise, but creatively designed mechanical audio. Ex: whirring gears, motor wine, tire noise, cabin resonance.
justcuckmyshitupfam2@reddit
I want a car that can dance out of the box. I don't care if it's gas, hybrid, or EV.
benmarvin@reddit
Slate has my attention, but I'm not erect. Simplify, then add lightness.
LegendaryOutlaw@reddit
After reading over specs and reviews of the initial product, I feel like the Slate could actually become a fun spec for amateur racing leagues. Similar to Miatas, they don’t need to have huge horsepower, they just need to be relatively light (truck bed) and handle well (Low center of gravity and weight balance from the battery floor).
And with all the swappable features and body panels, just figure out how to easily fit a roll cage and you’ve got a budget ev racer that’s customizable.
JSKindaGuy@reddit
racing sim rigs have come a long way with force and tilt feedbacks ... I'd put some of those tech in an enthusiast EV as a start
solid state battery is a must, 3-pedals is a must, selectable drivetrain is a must
smell cartridges of burnt metal would be a nice addition... if you suck at stick shift, it needs to be punishable
deletable motors and battery packs... going from Touring mode to Track Mode
2500lbs - 3000lbs, 250miles, 2 doors would be the sweet spot... but we're not there yet to build such a car with today's tech. Doesn't need much power, those that want 2000hp already have options with lithium in them.
TD1UZ86@reddit
It’s a mindset, there are “fun” EVs but I think they’re soulless which is why I think the majority of people who buy them consider them to be practical devices for their lifestyle.
ThePurpleBall@reddit
Fun one, it won’t ever get me to buy one as my toy but effectively it would need to have lightweight, and have a modular powerband (different torques/hp vs RPM). Would need to sound like a V12, so I guess if the speakers could just copy some V12 engine sound
QLDZDR@reddit
Style, reliability, price
k0unitX@reddit
Under 3000lbs curb weight with 400+ hp
TrptJim@reddit
There's no one answer to that question.
I'd be happy with a ~2600lb RWD electric Miata with the fake paddle shifting from the Ioniq 5N, and 200 miles of range (with the top down!) with 300kW fast charging.
A far away, or impossible, dream at the moment. And I'm sure others have different wants for an enthusiast car.
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit (OP)
Simple but I dig it. Battery tech isn’t there yet but if it was that’d be an interesting option
TrptJim@reddit
It would also give us the EV replacement for the ICE Miata's place in the racing world, which would be huge with the Miata being the most raced car in NA and globally.
So I guess you can add that as another requirement for me. :)
kakakavvv@reddit
Might as well make something that's like, straight out of Tron lol. Just make something bizzarely outlandish design wise.
EV won't have the organic NVH from ICE then why not build something that "attacks" other senses.
PhilosopherChemical1@reddit
They already made one and it's the Lucid Air. Savage geese, Doug demuro and all these YouTube reviews pretty much agreed with that statement. Go test drive and you will see. It blew my mind and converted me to the EV hype. I do wish the car was under 3500lbs. Maybe in the future we will get aftermarket solid state batteries to make that happen.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Lightweight/energy dense batteries coupled with ultra fast charging, or otherwise some kind of battery swap mechanism.
The problem right now is that in order to get a reasonable driving range on the cars, manufacturers need to throw more batteries at the. Which, due to the current state of battery tech results in the cars becoming super chonky beasts.
Look at the regular combustion Macan vs the new EV one next to each other, and you can see how thick the floor is between the wheels where the massive battery pack is installed. Sure that's nice and low down, but it's still a lot of weight.
ryguy32789@reddit
An EV with a clutch
ads1031@reddit
My opinion is, faux nothing. The machine shouldn't try to be what it isn't. No fake engine noises, no fake shifting.
I think that handling and chassis stiffness should be a priority. If you're trying to target an enthusiast market, but you're missing a crucial component of an enthusiast product in the form of a combustion engine, then you'll need other ways to make the car fun. Mazda has a reputation for making cars with sharp handling, and we all seem to agree that their sharp handling makes their cars fun. Of course, lightness helps a ton too, but a Cadillac STS is proof that heavy cars can also handle very well.
I think that interior tactile features should also be a priority. Let the steering wheel be wrapped in something nice. Leather heated and vented seats. Rear seat zone climate, plenty of leg room for the rear seat passengers.
The rear wheel drive trim should have no less than 335 horsepower. The all wheel drive trim should have closer to 400 horsepower. Let the throttle pedal just make torque demands of the electric motor or motors. If I'm swinging the car through a curve at 80mph, let me just back out of the throttle a little, maybe get a whiff of regen, feel the tires load up and hug the curve, feel the springs compress, feel the chassis and suspension working. Then I'll crack the throttle back open as I straighten up the wheel and sail on out of the curve.
Basically, it's a touring sedan, like a Cadillac STS, or that BMW i4 sedan. For enthusiasts, we'll even make a few wagons. It's smooth, it's comfortable. You don't really care that it's electric, you just care that it feels good to drive.
Does that make sense?
Master-Mission-2954@reddit
I think the answer is much more far-fetched than to create an enthusiast car, per se. Imo, we're approaching the end of traditional 'enthusiasm' as technology evolves. There are two examples to support this claim.
The first is the amount of money being spent on autonomy, and how thats largely taken the place of investment over enthusiastic ventures such as bigger engines, odd cylinder counts, manual transmissions, etc. If you will, just look at GM, once a leader in the enthusiast space, allocating most of its cash to EV/AV/robotics, and giving the enthusiast its largest investment in Corvette. You see this happening across the board with Honda, Nissan, VW, and more, with only Toyota giving the working class true, affordable performance product.
The second is the shift of gaming to AR/VR. Automotive esports is one of the largest categories in the automotive space, with lots of headroom to continue and grow. As more enthusiasts look to 'old tech' as the golden age of enthusiasm, this gives automakers and programmers the chance to introduce a new revenue model by 'selling cars' as code, not physical machines. Very soon, the idea that you'll be able to 'drive cars' in the meta space will become the reality. The fact that people will be able to drive at 9-10/10ths in a safe and affordable manner, basically able to drive whatever they want, compete however they want, whenever they'd want, and wherever will be the norm.
I think kids 15 years from now (maybe) kids will think that driving physical cars is an antiquated action, because why drive like an asshole on the freeway or a backroad when you could easily jump in the meta space and drive COTA or the Ring whenever you'd desire. I see this as the future. This would mean the physical enthusiast car being sold would be rare, probably homoligation models.
Zbinxsy@reddit
Fake noises won't cut it, customizable everything will, as in selectable full rwd, full fwd or say a balance between the two same with brakes and so on. Electronic suspension with full control, the list could go on. motors on each wheel give you crazy control and grip, the fun in an EV car will be the ridiculous limits you will be able to push it to and the adaptability.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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Sierra_463@reddit
A first-gen Honda Insight.
Shrikecorp@reddit
Taycan. RS E-tron. Rimac. These things exist.
Funny_things_online@reddit
I dont think its possible.
Bonerchill@reddit
An engine. Honestly.
I like EVs. They have a place.
But the experience as a whole is what I like about driving enthusiastically and EVs just have a blank spot where “powertrain enjoyment” is usually written.
SeriousMongoose2290@reddit
Used manual brown convertible two door wagon for a start.
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