98753@reddit

You have to state the country when you make these statements since it differs greatly

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Proper_Duty_4142@reddit

Anyways.

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mistersnips14@reddit

Salaries can be higher but it's definitely all or nothing in America. Like you alluded to, even if you are paid well, you need to find comfort in the grind because that never goes away in America no matter how high your salary gets.

you actually have, ya know, vacation time and sick time from your job

For vacation - does it matter what you get though?

kuldan5853@reddit

22 days? I know nobody - not even working stuff like restaurant kitchens - that get less than 28.

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Team503@reddit

I'm in Ireland, and I don't know a single person that gets that much. I work for a multi-billion dollar international in tech, and I am not a junior employee.

Where are you that restaurants get 28 days?

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kuldan5853@reddit

Germany, where 30 is considered the social "norm" - so if you get 28, they are already "shafting" you.

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robben1234@reddit

Did you stay within the same company but moved countries?

This approach of leaving the job to go live a life doesn't work for the first 5 years of the career.

But juniors should be job hopping every 2-3 years unless management is really good at properly compensating growth.

As for seniors - I see salaried senior people come and go all the time for completely unrelated reasons to this discussion. And if someone is determined to be a fixed term contractor there's plenty of work, you just have to be good.

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Pure_Cantaloupe_341@reddit

Juniors should be getting promoted after 2-3 years - not job hoping while remaining juniors. I did job hop as a junior (not for the sake of job hopping, for other reasons) and it did delay my career progression compared to those who stayed in the same role.

Senior people come and go of course, but normally they tend to stay for several years on the same job. I don’t think a company will be thrilled to hire a senior when from his job history it is clear that he will be handing his notice in less than a year.

Sure, for temporary contractors it can work - but it’s a relatively narrow niche. For most people resigning and finding another job in few months isn’t a viable alternative to more time off at work.

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Historical_Rip_1848@reddit

As an American, I barely know anyone making $150k. As a couple, yes but one person's salary? Not common.

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That's an interesting one. What's the rationale behind that law?

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kuldan5853@reddit

It's part of workers protection. You are supposed to have time to sleep, to eat, so socialize and live your life. And obviously to protect you from your boss grinding you into the ground by overworking you.

The legal framework (Germany, but very similar) says as an example:

The work week consists of 6 "work days" (Monday - Saturday). The daily amount of "full time work" is set at 8 hours a day.
Thus, the maximum you are allowed to work in any given week is 48 hours.
You can exceed the daily 8 hours (overtime) if there is need for it, but the cap is at 10 hours per day - anything over is illegal. If you exceed the 48 hours in a given week (e.g. by working 5 or 6 10 hour days), this needs to balance out to 48 hours per week over a 6 month period by you taking time off later.

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Team503@reddit

Don’t know anyone here doing that.

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TieAdditional6849@reddit

That's rubbish. I don't know anyone with 2-3 jobs in various European countries.

My salary would actually be quite a bit lower in the US.

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kranj7@reddit

almost nobody in the EU works 2-3 jobs. Sure you do have undocumented persons here, just like in the US, and they may be exploited, but otherwise it is very rare to find people working multiple jobs. In most EU countries if your salary is below a certain level you even qualify for subsidised housing, so you're needs are generally met regardless of your earnings and while not the most comfortable lifestyle, you still have food on the table, and some ways to connect with others (i.e. cheap Internet/phone, decent public transit etc.).

And for those who are working with middle-class and above wages, generally these persons will unlikely fall into credit card debt (as most people in the EU don't even keep credit cards to begin with), won't have student loans to pay off, no medical loans and no real need to put away major savings into private pensions for retirement (although this last one is starting to change now). Your social security for both when you are working and when you are not is taken care of.

Even unemployment is generous in some EU countries. France for example you can get up to 65% of your salary for up to 2 years (3 years if over 50) if you become unemployed and are looking for a new job.

The system is far from perfect, but overall you are well protected - much better than most other places in the world at least.

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kneusteun@reddit

Often it’s financial suicide to take another extra job, taxes and benefits will murder your gains.

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Tarantio@reddit

I don't think I know anybody working multiple jobs.

I guess "Europe" is a very broad category.

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Constant_Talk_4124@reddit

Loooooool you definitely don’t know what you’re talking about. Work life balance in Europe is way better than in the US.

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Unique-Gazelle2147@reddit

This is the real answer

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SpeedySparkRuby@reddit

I dunno about that, with how bad wages, close of living as a local, unemployment and youth unemployment in paticular can be in some European countries. It doesn't pencil to a place being inherently "happier" or "better" in my view.

Sorry.but many European countries are cutting back benefits and actually increasing the age for pensions. "La Dolce Vita" is no longer the case in Europe and I think many Americans fail to release this. I see a lot of people romanticizing healthcare in Germany-when most doctors there will see you for 5 minutes-say it's all in your head and recommend herbal tea.

The ideal that Reddit has about Europe is not correct and even very misleading. People are no more knowledgeable, literate or interested in a better world than America. Look at the recent elections. Lots of people want to complain, blame immigrants and "take back their country". In my view many expats don't have the ability to vote in their new country and therefore, negate anything political while bashing the US political scene. It's weird to me.

There is nothing more grotesquely capitalist than sitting in a Hospital bed with your future child inside of your body, the one you have been trying to get for two years, and having to decipher your insurance plan that is 30 pages long and deliberately misleading.

We called the company 13 times and never were given an answer as to how much my stay would cost or any idea as to how much after care for our child would be. We crunched numbers on what we thought we might need to pay which looked like 20 percent at the time, but the hospital social worker also couldn’t give us even a rough estimate.

Do we sell our home now and stay in the hospital or go home wait for infection to kick in? The option we were given was to come back for the DnC and hope I don’t die before being seen in the ER. And this was lucky because we are in a state that that still offers life saving care for pregnant people.

Basically the cost of medical care is unreasonable at best but the fear created around lack of transparency is where they really get you.

Trying to figure out if you have to pay for an ambulance and how much is nearly impossible as well. Are you being picked up in a county or an unincorporated community, what was the reason for the emergency and does it fit within these ever-changing regulations?

This is just one of my personal stories, people have to make life and death decisions everyday that no one should have to make in the midst of the worst times In their lives. When we talk about quality of life in the EU, it’s not dollar for dollar, but the difference between being recognized as human or monetary pawns. At least for now.

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Hot-Problem2436@reddit

I do! And I'm ditching it.

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LukasJackson67@reddit

No healthcare in the USA? 90%+ of Americans have health insurance.

Are you prone to hyperbole?

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Hot-Problem2436@reddit

Did you not read my post where I specifically addressed this, knowing people like you would try to call me out on my wording?

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LukasJackson67@reddit

You have bad healthcare here. Is that the plan through your employer or did you buy that on your own? You are not eligible for any subsidy?

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Hot-Problem2436@reddit

It's through my employer and is considered a top tier insurance plan.

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LukasJackson67@reddit

By whose definition?

My wife and I are on seperate plans.

I pay $275/month and have basically zero out of pocket other than co-pays for me and two kids.

My wife has been with 5 different Fortune 500 companies and she has never had anything like what you are describing.

Two kids and childbirth?

Zero OOP

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Hot-Problem2436@reddit

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SpeedySparkRuby@reddit

"The country with weekly school shootings," You're the one who's going for fallacious arguments here with this strawman.

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Hot-Problem2436@reddit

Oh sorry, MY BAD. I meant MASS shootings, of which we've had 169 this year. We're just known for our frequent school shootings. I'll make sure I get it right next time 🫡

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Princescyther@reddit

Don't forget the US also suffers a family annihilation case every 5 days.

Because if that is so, many MD doctors are the same here they just use synthetic pills instead of Tea or herbals.

They want that fast revolving door that pays them a lot, but no way can they really help most with that clinic model. I know an RN.. At her clinic, 15 minutes per patient. Her fees, in general between 150-300 USD plus copay. Average 30 patients a day.

Then, they get kickbacks or bonus payments for vaccinations and certain prescriptions.

Do the math and you see why they don't take the time to really help.

It's so much better to be hooked on an antidepressant or pain medication?? Because, they don't know how it works. They only prescribe. They want as much money in as little time as possible and have close to zero pharmaceutical training.

Pseudoscience comes in whether the assistance for your health is synthetic or not. Herbals aren't the shill. The pills and shots aren't either.

The shill is the 5 or 15 minutes, and not truly figuring out if the pill or the herbals works best for that patient. The shills is also, when studies and research are biased because of who paid for the study.

Some doctors are truly amazing, but finding them is difficult.

Same in America as the world over, except addiction is real when that prescription pill is used after that 5 minute meet.

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leeketyspit@reddit

Doctors will see you for 6 minutes here and ‘prescribe’ a Tylenol or write a referral, typically. I’ll take an herbal tea. Then there’s the small matter of potentially dying or going bankrupt because of a private insurance company here, yep no biggie.

Everyone I’ve met in Europe has been immeasurably smarter and more knowledgeable about the US than the vast majority of Americans I know. And they were amazed at how much I knew in comparison to the vast majority of Americans they met.

Late-Ad-1020@reddit

💯💯💯

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carnivorousdrew@reddit

I can show you at least 20 places in 4 different countries were people work in conditions that will remind you very much of the US. If you are a white collar worker, especially ina STEM field, you just have a very biased view of things. Clearly.

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That's true- but the thing about large cities is that a lot of people live there.

It's a much more accessible option in Europe than in the US.

And, just for the record, my family doesn't need a car in the small city we live in (under 200k people.) We're a little unusual here, but it'd be impossible in most comparable places in the US.

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LukasJackson67@reddit

A lot of people live in New York City as well and you don’t need a car there either.

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twilight-2k@reddit

New York is one of about a half dozen US cities where this is true. Most major US cities still require a car (unlike Europe). Once you get more rural, it equals out more (needing a car in both places).

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Tarantio@reddit

Also true.

However, not everything that can be described as "a lot of people" is comparable in every respect.

The fact of the matter is that a higher percentage of Europeans have access to the transportation infrastructure that makes living car-free feasible.

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LukasJackson67@reddit

Then the next question is “is car free preferred?”

If I lived on Amsterdam I would not want a car as there is no place to park it and it would not be needed.

However, I “could” be car free in my part of the USA.

However, I choose not to be. I like the freedom of having my own car.

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Tarantio@reddit

That's a very silly question to ask on anything above the personal level.

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LukasJackson67@reddit

Oh no my friend.

On this sub and on Reddit in general car free is preferred.

Surely you have noticed that.

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Tarantio@reddit

The ability to go car free is always superior to not having that ability, yeah. It makes it better for everyone, including drivers.

That's why it's silly to talk about whether individuals want or don't want to have a car. It doesn't matter for what the larger community should do. You can still own a car and enjoy good urbanism.

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SomeAd8993@reddit

not having to drive is such a silly trope - go to any european city and the place is bursting at seams with cars

what are all those Europeans are doing then sitting in traffic for hours?

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No-Palpitation4872@reddit

It just depends on the country. I adore the Netherlands for so many reasons, and I’m staying here in the long term, but when Americans back home tell me how much better our healthcare is here, I just have to laugh. No preventative care. Good luck getting a yearly check-up. If you need bloodwork, wait three months. They won’t test you for infections even if they’re recurring. The waitlists in the U.S. are long as shit, but at least you can still get preventative care. We have a family friend here whose cancer advanced significantly because they saw irregularities at the doctor and delayed it four months for the screenings. I have a chronic illness and I recommend the US system over the Dutch system if you actually want to be treated.

And health insurance here is so expensive. I guess it’s hard for me to understand why people generalize European healthcare so much. It’s the one thing about being here that has made my life a living hell.

And on the driving front, I’d argue that Italy has the same level of car dependency as the U.S. They just have more public transport options, but you cannot get by in a lot of places without auto transit.

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GeekShallInherit@reddit

but when Americans back home tell me how much better our healthcare is here, I just have to laugh.

Even adjusted for purchasing power parity, the Dutch are paying an average of over $20,000 less per household annually on healthcare. The Netherlands has the 3rd best health outcomes in the world. Americans have the 29th best health outcomes.

wait three months

The Netherlands has the best wait times among Commonwealth Fund countries.

The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 5th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:

Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
One third of US families had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.

Wait Times by Country (Rank)

Country	See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment	Response from doctor's office same or next day	Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER	ER wait times under 4 hours	Surgery wait times under four months	Specialist wait times under 4 weeks	Average	Overall Rank
Australia	3	3	3	7	6	6	4.7	4
Canada	10	11	9	11	10	10	10.2	11
France	7	1	7	1	1	5	3.7	2
Germany	9	2	6	2	2	2	3.8	3
Netherlands	1	5	1	3	5	4	3.2	1
New Zealand	2	6	2	4	8	7	4.8	5
Norway	11	9	4	9	9	11	8.8	9
Sweden	8	10	11	10	7	9	9.2	10
Switzerland	4	4	10	8	4	1	5.2	7
U.K.	5	8	8	5	11	8	7.5	8
U.S.	6	7	5	6	3	3	5.0	6

Source: Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016

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No-Palpitation4872@reddit

And check out the cancer mortality rate. Your statistics highlight that it’s cheaper than it is in the U.S., sure. But the costs increase substantially each year, and Dutch incomes are also significantly lower than they are in the United States. The U.S. obviously has serious issues with cost and I don’t deny it. It’s not just cost.

My emphasis is on the lack of preventative care, which you can actually see if you look at comparative cancer mortality rates across the OECD. Less Dutch people get preventable diseases and illnesses because of lifestyle factors, but life expectancy doesn’t always mean that the health care is better than other locations with lower life expectancies. When preventative care is left out of the equation, you have a higher mortality when people do get sick because things have progressed quite a ways.

My partner’s grandfather is currently dying because his cancer recurred and the doctors did not take it seriously or test him, did not expedite the testing at all. The Netherlands is a terrible place to live if you have a family history of cancer or any chronic illness that requires intervention, particularly any chronic illness that requires pain management. Not every “universal healthcare” system is the same. The medical philosophy also matters. The U.S. should get rid of its system altogether because the costs are abhorrent and the doctor/nursing shortage is of course straining the system. The Dutch system sucks for other reasons. This is universally acknowledged by almost every single American and European who has migrated here. My Eastern European colleagues literally go back to Eastern Europe for care.

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GeekShallInherit@reddit

And check out the cancer mortality rate.

It's true five year survival rates for some types of cancer are a bright spot for US healthcare. Even then that doesn't account for lead-time and overdiagnosis biases, which US survival rates benefit from.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cancer-rates-and-unjustified-conclusions/

https://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/why-survival-rate-is-not-the-best-way-to-judge-cancer-spending/

The other half of the picture is told by mortality rates, which measure how many people actually die from cancer in each country. The US does slightly worse than average on that metric vs. high income peers.

More broadly, cancer is but one disease. When looking at outcomes among a broad range of diseases amenable to medical treatment, the US does poorly against its peers, ranking 29th.

But the costs increase substantially each year

From 2000, to 2022, the cost of US healthcare has increased over $4,000 more per person than Dutch healthcare (PPP). The cost of US healthcare is expected to increase another $6,222 per person just in the next seven years.

My emphasis is on the lack of preventative care

Which you've provided no evidence for. The fact the Dutch see the doctor more often and have wildly better health outcomes would certainly indicate this isn't a major problem.

When preventative care is left out of the equation, you have a higher mortality when people do get sick because things have progressed quite a ways.

If you need bloodwork, wait three months.

If it's that bad, you can hop on a plane to Bulgaria for 2 hours, get bloodwork in any of the hundred laboratories in Sofia literally as a walk-in, immediately after stepping through the door, get the results 2 hours later, have lunch and go back home.

And the entire thing, including the plane tickets, will probably cost less than in the Netherlands if you had to pay out of pocket.

Depends what you mean by "rich". Middle class has a chance of possibly reaching as high as the top 5% but has virtually no chance of reaching the top 0.1% (where the real money is).

Of course, Medicaid is currently undergoing signficant cuts. The insurers that put plans on the ACA marketplace vary by state but tend to not be even close to the best plans (regardless of how much you are willing to pay). Jobs usually provide "affordable" premiums but that doesn't do anything for the commonly multi-$1000 deductible.

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IManAMAAMA@reddit

I work in education, I think I know the fees.

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SmokeAlternative7974@reddit

Review your original question. I see now you were just trying to make a statement and not get accurate information!

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IManAMAAMA@reddit

Sure. Listen, you don't have to accept that multiple reports rank the US as doing awfully in healthcare and education in the western world. But that is the data.

I would focus on fixing that, personally.

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SmokeAlternative7974@reddit

You didn’t ask about healthcare outcomes. If you wanted to shift the convo I would have been happy to discuss outcomes and the poor healthcare ROI in the US. You asked about services for very poor Americans.

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Ideally you'd want to get the quality and speed of US healthcare

What quality and speed?

The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 5th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:

Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
One third of US families had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.

US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index

11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund

59th by the Prosperity Index

30th by CEOWorld

37th by the World Health Organization

The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016

52nd in the world in doctors per capita.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people

Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/

Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization

Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries

These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.

When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.

On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.

If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.

https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021

OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings

|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|Lancet HAQ Ranking|WHO Ranking|Prosperity Ranking|CEO World Ranking|Commonwealth Fund Ranking :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|$7,274 |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|

Most of Europe right now is dealing with a lack of medical professionals

The US does worse on doctors per capita than most of its peers.

Once you get to the median that will shift since you can spare the same amount of money out of your income for health insurance as the government takes in Western Europe for example

With government in the US covering 65.7% of all health care costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at $6,930. The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.

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IManAMAAMA@reddit

Healthcare outcomes by country: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2024/sep/mirror-mirror-2024

I have lived and worked in much of Europe and the US, and I know what access to healthcare you get - and what you pay for that access.

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niemamwiecejpomyslow@reddit

It surely depends! I moved to States 10 years ago from Europe and I’m def not your standard immigrant and my family income is probably at least twice as many of my neighbors but after that being said…

Do we romanticize life in Europe? Absolutely yes. Do we do it TOO MUCH? Considering the current state of America— no. I don’t think so.

HVP2019@reddit

We are talking about Europe not EU. Some European countries are in EU and some aren’t. Some Europeans can easily move to another country others can’t.

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angrybabyfish@reddit

I’m just using the abbreviation

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HVP2019@reddit

How is discussion if in conversation about Europe and US. Pointing out that Europe has a dictatorship or two is an anecdote, and is irrelevant

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angrybabyfish@reddit

No worries.

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HVP2019@reddit

I am just using the abbreviation

EU is abbreviation for European Union.

EU is not abbreviation for Europe. Conversation is about Europe.

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angrybabyfish@reddit

…. I told you what my intended usage was. Now you’re just arguing semantics for the hell of it. That’s enough.

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angrybabyfish@reddit

I’m just using the abbreviation

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HVP2019@reddit

EU is abbreviation for European Union.

EU is not abbreviation for Europe. Conversation is about Europe.

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circle22woman@reddit

I love how you paint "Americans are desperate for a change" like it's everyone.

Everyone on Reddit? Maybe

Because they know they can't make that money or career. Try working in southern European countries - shit wage, very limited career growth.

The opportunities aren't there or are very small. And then those opportunities have lot of taxes. So yeah one way to stop people from chasing dreams is to just kill all those dreams.

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Reasonable-Gate202@reddit

That's exactly it! Well said.

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Reasonable-Gate202@reddit

Americans do romanticize Europe way too much.

Living in any of the big cities like London, Paris, Rome is nearly impossible if you're white and especially a woman. I cannot even leave the house without a darker immigrant stalking me if I walk to the bus stop or underground.

Healthcare is a joke. Because I have health problems I need to pay for all of it out of pocket. When I went to the NHS (in the UK) I was misdiagnosed so I had to fork out tens of thousands of pounds to find out what's wrong with me by going to lots of private clinics.

There is no police and if you do go to the police, they won't do anything. I was stalked, there was an attempted kidnapping, I and some members of my family had out online banking hacked and some people almost managed to steal tens of thousands of euros, thank God that the bank stopped it and wanted to doublecheck if before it was too late. We went to the police with all of this and they literally just shrugged and did nothing. In the US, you still have a police force that does things. Their hands are not tied by the EU as it is here.

I called the police to a family where the man was beating up the wife and child. The police came, talked to them and did nothing else.

I think that the statistics about domestic violence and how many women are killed are cooked in all of Europe. I personally have heard or witnessed a lot of domestic violence. It's literally everywhere in Europe and I lived in 5 different countries.

Too many immigrants and migrants that are paid to sit around from our money - many of them are violent and aggressive. We are losing our freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

Europe as we knew it is dying, if not already dead. You're better off in the US. Budget properly, put some money aside for your health (as I did) and you'll be fine.

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hexagonoutlander@reddit

There are things I like better about living in Europe (France) but yes Americans definitely romanticize it. I think people imagine that if you live here you’re always on vacation. There are different positive things and also different frustrations and then there’s a whole lot of just life like it would be anywhere.

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AdorableAd2568@reddit

I’m an American who has been in Belgium for two years and I really like it there. Health care is affordable, universities offer high-quality affordable education, and the public transport is great. Belgians complain about their trains but I don’t mind the strikes and occasional delays because at least they actually exist here, though I understand their frustration. I like the walkability and that it’s safe to cycle. I don’t worry about shootings when I go to large public spaces or that I’ll get into an accident and end up with lifelong debt. Before I even had my Belgian health insurance set up I paid €5 to see the doctor and €10 for a medication that costs $2500 without insurance in the US. Of course this is why they pay higher taxes, but in my experience Belgian public services are great compared to US. After all my tax return couldn’t fund one weeks’ worth of tuition at a US university.

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Dulak2019@reddit

It's over-romanticized I believe. I spent almost 6 months traveling through uk and Europe from the U.S., instascammers definitely hype it up the moving abroad. While there are pros, just selling everything and starting over doesn't eliminate all your problems, wherever you go there you are. That said, next Aug, God willing, this time I'm planning a 2 year trip around the world with my son to hit all the continents.

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morning_dreams@reddit

In general, I would say its more of a general belief that all people have of 'grass is greener on the other side.'

The thing that does make it stronger with Americans is that compared to other countries, there's a much bigger culture in America to be critical of the country, culture, and people. That makes it so that the level of pride we have in our own country is lower than others in the world; and so those who haven't travelled or really experienced another culture deeply mistake it as truth.

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breaker-one-9@reddit

I agree that these days I go shopping with my car.. but back then when I was living downtown and the stores were walkable, we just went more often and used this:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61nEVRtiHDL.jpg

They even make variants that are stair climbers so you don't even have to carry them.

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Unique-Gazelle2147@reddit

Whoa high tech! I recently saw some Chinese invention similar to this but for really heavy things like a robotic powered dolly that was taking a washing machine up stairs.

When I lived in China nearly 20 years ago they had some very pitiful small framed man carrying an entire small washer on his back up 9 flights of stairs. I don’t know why but it was one thing that really stuck with me and I felt so guilty for him breaking his back to get us a washer.

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kuldan5853@reddit

Whoa high tech! I recently saw some Chinese invention similar to this but for really heavy things like a robotic powered dolly that was taking a washing machine up stairs.

Moving companies here have machines like that, they used it to move the 400lbs fridge up to my apartment when I moved in 5 years ago.

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The various healthcare systems in Europe are definitely ‘romanticized’. Make an appointment to see a doctor for a nagging problem. Then wait a month for your appointment. Then, the doctor says you need a simple blood and urinalysis to make a determination. No problem…YOU, the patient are now responsible for setting up those appointments for another day in a different location across town. If you’re employed, you’ll need to arrange another half or full day off of work. When the lab tests are done, it’s your responsibility to obtain the results and then physically take them to the original doctor who ordered the tests because nobody is on the same computer network. Then, you wait until they contact you with the results so you can get your diagnosis…oh…wait…no…it’s up to you to follow up and call them every other day to get the results.

Seriously, sometimes it’s an absolute joke compared to the US where you go to your doctor’s appointment and if they need blood, a nurse comes in and takes it or hands you a cup to pee in and they know what’s going on within hours or a day or so. You’re not running all over town for tests or to be their messenger. In the meantime, the doctor has often prescribed you something based on his or her knowledge figuring that they already have a good idea what’s causing the problem.

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GeekShallInherit@reddit

Then wait a month for your appointment.

The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 5th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:

Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
One third of US families had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.

Americans are paying half a million dollars more than peer countries on average for healthcare, yet every one has better outcomes. 36% of US households with insurance put off needed care due to the cost; 64% of households without insurance. One in four have trouble paying a medical bill. Of those with insurance one in five have trouble paying a medical bill, and even for those with income above $100,000 14% have trouble. One in six Americans has unpaid medical debt on their credit report. 50% of all Americans fear bankruptcy due to a major health event. Tens of thousands of Americans die every year for lack of affordable healthcare.

With healthcare spending expected to increase from an already unsustainable $15,705 in 2025, to an absolutely catastrophic $21,927 by 2032 (with no signs of slowing down), things are only going to get much worse if nothing is done.

US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index

11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund

59th by the Prosperity Index

30th by CEOWorld

37th by the World Health Organization

The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016

52nd in the world in doctors per capita.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people

Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/

Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization

Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries

These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.

When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.

On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.

If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.

https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021

OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings

|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|Lancet HAQ Ranking|WHO Ranking|Prosperity Ranking|CEO World Ranking|Commonwealth Fund Ranking :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|$7,274 |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|

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worldisbraindead@reddit

Well, something really got lodged in your craw.

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GeekShallInherit@reddit

Ah, yes... I addressed your argument with facts, there must be something wrong with me. Do you even hear yourself?

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New_Criticism9389@reddit

I’d also add that emergency care at state hospitals isn’t free either (apparently people believe ER bills are an exclusively American thing)—either you pay for it via taxes (enrolled in the state system) or via insurance reimbursement (which can take a couple of weeks at least). Also, you’ll be stuck waiting however long unless you’re literally at death’s door and bleeding out because, just like in the US, doctors have to prioritize.

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GeekShallInherit@reddit

either you pay for it via taxes

With government in the US covering 65.7% of all health care costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at $6,930. The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.

or via private insurance

After those world leading taxes, we pay world leading insurance premiums. For example private family insurance in the US averages about $26,000 per year. In the UK, it's around $2,500. And US insurance doesn't cover much, leaving us with world leading out of pocket costs as well.

you’ll be stuck waiting however long

The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 5th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016

Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:

Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
One third of US families had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.

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worldisbraindead@reddit

In all fairness, there are also positives as well. But, my wife and I have found that most non life-threatening medical issues are such a hassle to deal with we often think about maybe just ignoring them, hoping they'll go away on their own.

Also, what most Americans don't understand is that our system is not free. Yes, it has the appearance of being free...and nobody goes bankrupt...but we pay 21% tax on all goods and services. Income taxes are significantly higher than in the US and when you buy a house, the government imposes a 10% transfer tax due at signing.

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New_Criticism9389@reddit

Yeah, I imagine for those enrolled in the state system, it’s better than for me (I have private insurance only) and I’m glad it exists of course (I think both state and private options should exist re: healthcare) but yeah, there are also downsides that people don’t consider or think about

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inrecovery4911@reddit

Well-said. I'll add my perspective to your valid points.

I've lived in various European countries since I was 25 (now 52), and I'll be the first to admit I'm deeply grateful for the medical care I did get when I really needed it (emergency gall bladder removal, multiple treatments, including PT, for severe back pain/disability from a slipped disc, gynecological care). I often said "I seriously doubt I'd have good healthcare in the US and be able to afford these things." I worked in a niche industry around the world that provided a lifestyle I would never have had in the US doing an American version of that job, and receiving necessary healthcare was a part of that. I also appreciate having healthcare once I stopped working, although again, my husband pays that out of his salary every month. Together it's between 600 and 700 Euros each time.

However, many Americans who dream of moving over here are very ignorant about the realities behind so-called free healthcare. It is not like the often (not always, I know) quality, friendly, state-of-the-art, patient-centered) healthcare in the US, just in a different language. The whole culture is different, and at least in Germany, there's no emphasis on compassion, politness, bedside manner. I've been repeatedly screamed at, insulted, and even once hazed by nurses, medical receptionists, and doctors. I expect it now. I'm not alone. My German husband and I have rued how sad it is that we're shocked and relieved when someone is polite or kind on the phone or at the appointment.

I also want to reiterate that it was never free. Money was taken out of my paycheck in every country for it, and in Germany, it's a comparotively significant chunk every month. However, I always paid out of pocket on top for mental healthcare because years-long wait lists for often out-of-date, inappropriate therapy was the option if I used my insurance. This has now spread to any kind of specialist here in Germany - the system is do overloaded that it's very difficult to get an appointment in say under 3 months (how long I waited to see my orthopedist last year when my back flared up and I couldn't sit or sleep for the pain). This is the new normal in Germany. I've seen it change over my 22 years to a system in crisis. It's typical that doctors' offices of all kinds no longer answer the phone, they're too busy. My husband and I repeatedly have to go in person to make an appointment. And...so many doctors are burned out (if they ever had any bedside msnner at all, which is debatable here in many cases). Too many patients, only 8 minutes to spend with each one. I saw my previously lovely GP turn into a grumpy, reactionary person over the last 8 years. My husband and I now only go when it's really a serious matter - like coughing blood or not being able to walk. And if the option is there, I pay for private care. Especially if it involves surgery. My stays in German hospitals were quite literally traumatic due to the lack of compassion, the lack of privacy, and the extra long-stays (10 days for something that is a day procedure in the US). I need a knee replacement and I plan to go to a private clinic in Lithuania that caters to American and British medical tourists. 20 thousand is worth avoiding a German hospital.

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Hausmannlife_Schweiz@reddit

Visiting on holiday is a lot different than living. That is where the romanticizing comes from.

7 months ago I returned to the US after living 5 years in the place that many romanticize the most: Switzerland. My wife has continued to stay in Zurich while I remodel the house, but she is coming back home in a few months.

There is good and bad about everywhere. I do think, if my wife and I had been able to make the move when our kids were little, we might have stayed. Even with the rest of our family and friends back here in the US. There does seem to be more balance from our experience. Though my wife worked longer and harder than she ever did back in the US. The difference being, her company almost NEVER called her when she was scheduled off. comparing that to here, when she always had her work phone and laptop with her, and was working at least part of every day off.

That being said, my wife is very well compensated here, and she is very well compensated by Swiss standards as well. THAT makes a difference.

On the lower end of the economic scale, at least what I saw, Europeans are much better off due to the better safety nets and transportation systems. If you have money, the US is by far the(IMO) the better place to be.

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Historical-View647@reddit

"Visiting on holiday is a lot different than living" Yes, a place that's great for a visit doesn't necessarily mean it will be great for living. Unfortunately I learned the hard way it doesn't work the opposite way. If there is a country or city you hate and can't click with from the beginning it will never improve,no matter how often you visit or long live there.

Also want to add that Eastern Europe like the Balkans have mostly bad transportation systems and bad safety nets and working here is a toxic rat race like in America but for far lower salaries.

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kuldan5853@reddit

"Visiting on holiday is a lot different than living" Yes, a place that's great for a visit doesn't necessarily mean it will be great for living.

Thats how I see italy. It's our favorite country to spend time and vacation, we love the food etc - but in a professional setting, working with Italians and Italian work norms has been extremely annoying for me.

Still love the country to unwind and recharge my batteries, but I could never imagine moving there permanently.

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Historical-View647@reddit

OMG after I came back from Milan I can say I feel the same. I've worked with Italians before and yeah, many of their work norms are similar to the things I hate about working with people from my country/the Balkans in general.

If you’re in the public education system here I’ve also found it to be amazing. My kids teachers are fantastic, the Hort/after school is not expensive, the a school itself is completely open - just like my elementary school in San Diego was in the 80s, and university is dirt cheap.

I was checking in with my sister, who lives in Barcelona, today with respect to diabetes medication that I take. It's called Trulicity, it's one of those new-fangled drugs people inject to lose weight, and if you lose your health insurance it costs over a grand per month. I have a friend here in the US, she has Crohn's, and her beds go for 25 grand every 2 months, as a consequence of which she understands herself to basically being locked into earning no more than ca. 35 grand annually, because then she qualifies for some kind of a state program.

If you're Spanish, or at least a legal resident, you have a 4 euro copay on my monthly prescription. Because Spain negotiates prices with Eli Lilly for the national supply, something the Republicans have objected to for decades, a private party payer like me would pay roughly 130 euros. That's like 10%. My friend, if Spanish, would be similarly not locked in to something she is fortunate to have.

They pay high taxes, but they dont just routinely get Martin Shkrelied by $700 insulin over there. That matters a great deal, if you ask me.

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circle22woman@reddit

They pay high taxes

Exactly. Whether you pay for it yourself or the government takes your money and pays for it for you, you're still paying for it.

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nofunatallthisguy@reddit

Exactly. Because the government pays it for you, you will not face a bi-monthly $25,000 bill, you will not face a monthly $1,000 bill, you will not declare bankruptcy because there were complications during labor, etc. etc.

There is a great deal of peace of mind in this, and that also makes for quality of life.

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kuldan5853@reddit

The difference is - the European system makes it accessible to everyone, not just the wealthy.

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uiuxua@reddit

As an European who lived 15 years in Canada and spent a lot of time in the US and has now been in Portugal for a year: yes they do romanticize it quite a bit. I might be biased but I think on average Europe has a much higher quality of life, but it’s often not how North Americans expect it to be. North Americans are used to comfort and efficiency and many things in Europe (especially southern) are neither. Apartments and cars are in general a lot smaller and while it’s amazing and quite romantic to buy your bread from the bakery every day, it’s not exactly efficient. I think it’s hard for a lot of North Americans to look past that because they think they’ll get the comfort, efficiency AND the other benefits (more vacation time, better food quality, public transit etc.) Also, if you don’t learn the local language then everything will always be harder and you won’t integrate properly.

The taxes are astronomical. We live in London but would not have moved here if our visa didn’t exempt us from taxes, even council tax.

Public transportation is a Huge leap for us Americans. I have been car-free in the US for years, in Northern Virginia and Southern California- yes my city has Free Ride Share app for all residents, free senior citizen vans, free public trolley, and cheap bus.

My husband worked in a 29k American place in Germany and we met 0 who didn’t have a car. Most of them drive big SUVs with scrapes on the sides from the tiny parking garages there.

Americans do not like to carry a bunch of stuff with them, and especially do not like to be wed to someone else’s timetable, plus Germs. Public transport is so nasty here in London (and expensive and slow), that we take our clothes and shoes off when we get in the house.

I just saw an American post food pics from their Italy trip and it was all Pizza and pasta. You will get sick of pizza and pasta.

And it’s a myth that Brits are polite. We mistakenly take their words at face value. Our first lesson we learned after moving here is that Excuse Me actually means Excuse You for getting in my way!

And Europe is Very very classist. A friend who is a medic in the Uk military said he wouldn’t be able to date his gf here. She is a neurosurgeon and is American living in the US.

Conveniences and variety and efficiency are rare here. Lots pf places are closed on Sundays. Realtors, doctors (except a skeleton crew at hospitals), pharmacists, etc Do not work weekends. Want a protein bar? There is one or 2 kinds at the store. Variety is small in most things except drinks and chips/crisps. Red tape and slow government processes are rampant here.

alittledanger@reddit

Americans are classist when it comes to dating too, but they will discard it to date certain nationalities.

As an example, I am a high school teacher in the Bay Area. I am also a dual U.S./Irish citizen. I would put both on my dating profiles, in addition to making it clear that I have an American accent.

I cannot tell you how many women were totally jazzed about matching with a handsome Irish teacher (they didn’t bother to read the next line on my profile about my accent) only to unmatch me immediately after I clarify that I am really American or just express disappointment/suprise followed by comments about how poorly teachers are paid here leading to a more polite unmatching.

https://eatwell.uky.edu/sites/default/files/2024-08/foods-us-vs-eu-2.pdf

There is no evidence in this source, just "look at this food additive the US uses that could be a problem". No mention of how much one might get exposed to, or data on what levels are unsafe.

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NotAnotherScientist@reddit

Regardless, it's a reputable source. Can you show me any reputable sources that say anything else?

I'm curious because a lot of bold statements were made and I would like to see studies backing it up but am unable to find any.

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SpeedySparkRuby@reddit

That's honestly the gist of why most people "feel better" in Europe. It's not the food that I've seen some people claim as "magic", it's the constant walking and being out in walkable places that provides a multitude of health benefits.

Realistically the biggest differences in terms of regulations of food between the US and EU is transparency in ingredients on the label and PDO (Protected Designation of Origin) products.

elevenblade@reddit

I’m an American who moved to Stockholm from Southern California in 2017. In my experience the quality of life is much better here.

SoCal was nice but work was more stress and being dependent on an automobile is a form of stress. Here there’s lots of nature even though I’m in a big city and I can walk, ride a bike or take public transportation anywhere I want to go.

So no, I don’t think Americans romanticize life in Europe too much.

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HVP2019@reddit

I am European who moved to Northern California 20+ years ago.

In my opinion work related stress is not as severe as war related stress, which many Europeans currently experience.

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Inspector-GadgetPT@reddit

lol come on I’ve been living in Europe for 20 years now and never had war related stress. It can happen anywhere randomly. A civil war can also start in the US in the next few years, are you not stressed??

The amount of excuses you guys try to make to justify the place you guys are living is laughable.

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HVP2019@reddit

You don’t have war related stress because there is no war in your part of Europe. I am taking about part of Europe that has war.

It isn’t even the first European war in my memory. I remember Yugoslavia. And there is higher chance for war conflict in Moldova than for bombs flying in US.

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HVP2019@reddit

You don’t have war related stress because there is no war in your part of Europe. I am taking about part of Europe that has war.

It isn’t even the first European war in my memory. I remember Yugoslavia. And there is higher chance for war conflict in Moldova than for bombs flying in US.

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elevenblade@reddit

Could you elaborate on what you mean by “war related stress”? I’m guessing you mean the Russian invasion of Ukraine. If so I would love to hear how this is affecting people’s stress levels and in what countries. My sense is that people in Sweden take it quite seriously but that it doesn’t significantly contribute to day-to-day stress here.

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inrecovery4911@reddit

People living in the Baltic States are experiencing very realistic anxiety, which was present before but is only made more real by the war in Ukraine.

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circle22woman@reddit

I have a friend in Poland and he's losing sleep over it.

WW2 wasn't that long ago, and unless you wanted to live in fascist Spain, your options were limited.

Work culture: I had mostly good, meaningful jobs in the U.S. and never felt like I was “living to work.” I’m now an entrepreneur. In contrast, most EU workplaces I’ve been in felt way more hierarchical, with career paths and roles often locked in from a young age. If you are someone who just wants a paycheck (and that is fine) options are more limited in Europe but stability is emphasized and you won't be expected to do more. However, if you think differently or want to do more than the minimum a "know your place, stay in your place" culture is more common. Giant difference in compensation and the ability to save, invest.
Healthcare: After a decade I'm still annoyed by clueless Americans talking about "free healthcare". Whether it comes from 51% of my income going to taxes (BE) and taxes being much higher in general everywhere, or the fact that where I now live (NL) all healthcare is private and in addition to high taxes I pay premiums for access and quality far below what I have in the U.S., I pay a lot for "free" healthcare of lower quality than what I had in the U.S. Mental healthcare resources are pretty bad. Little if any preventative care. Rationing is real and quality of facilities has been consistently lower across the EU.
Cars: I lived in American cities with strong transit but also rural and natural areas. I don't like American suburban living but you can find similar across Europe. In Germany I think they have some of the most soulless (and car dependent) small towns. If you're someone who only visits major cities and you're coming from American suburban sprawl I get it but over simplistic comparisons are the norm online.
Food: Probably the biggest unambiguous "grass is greener in EU" for me. Not as much variety but general quality of food + the time to enjoy food related things is huge for me. In the U.S. there is just a great diversity and flexibility of lifestyles, which I miss, but not as much as I enjoy my interactions with food, shopping, cooking, and sharing it in Europe.

Americans online and people cosplaying Americans online -they often have either/or, winner/loser points of view. They also seem to frequently disconnect real life which includes things like your family, friends, and other meaningful connection, personal preferences -and promote some bizarre world where people just hop across the Atlantic to "become European" and easily integrate themselves into cultures that are comparatively homogeneous, conservative, and more static than U.S. life.

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GeneralRaspberry8102@reddit

Gotta remember the OVERWHELMING majority of people commenting and posting on ANY expat sub Reddit have never left their home country. If they are American they most likely don’t even have a passport and all they know about Europe is what they see on YouTube and TikTok and they think that’s how it really is.

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loud_v8_noises@reddit

Yup and a lot of Europeans spend 10 days in New York or Miami or LA and think they “know” America.

It cuts both ways.

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katietheplantlady@reddit

For sure. My husband and I are both american and moved to Germany then the Netherlands from rural Wisconsin. I have had several people from our hometowns message me on a whim and ask me how we did it. I give them some brief actually practical information and I never hear about it again

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pentaweather@reddit

That explains why descriptions of negative events in this sub get downvoted easily, whether for concrete events - moving, navigating healthcare, insurance, taxes, to personal sentiments like social dynamics and culture.

They think the expat experience cannot be tainted as a whole or something, when the post isn’t even about their dream destination. There’s a lot of projection and many responses are not based on realism on here. Usually OPs respond well because they seek concrete info but many others are baseless. They just want what they want to hear.

This sub can go from really solid to unhinged easily. I’m not active but the dms I get are weird from this sub. They lack social skills or expect others to perform free tasks for them.

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NiceCandle5357@reddit

Also there are some expats who have drank the kool-aid and don't want to hear any criticisms of their adopted country. It's interesting the spectrum of personalities, circumstances, etc.

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Pale-Candidate8860@reddit

A lot of my fellow Americans do not want to hear that Canada isn't a liberal paradise or anything else that could be perceived negatively. I promise that. I have received a fair share of down votes for that.

I have also been told how terrible Canada is from Americans that don't live here and have never visited either. It's not 3rd world, but it's not the greatest place to live either. That's okay though. Would rather live in Canada than Europe. It doesn't mean Germany or France sucks. Just a preference.

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SkaTM@reddit

you mail in checks

What? I am 41 and I have not seen an actual check in my life.

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MadMorf@reddit

I think we probably do.

Anyone with half a brain knows that Europe isn’t Disneyland, and people there are just doing the daily grind and getting on with their lives, like everywhere else. What sets that world apart from the reality in the US is, most of the governments in Europe seem to be trying to do the right things to make life easier for their citizens.

That’s a huge difference, and we’ve lost our way in the US.

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xSea206x@reddit

In Europe, how often do families go bankrupt due to a healthcare emergency?

And it's great that you observed families living together to save money. In a number of municipalities in the US they actually have zoning codes and building codes to make this cost saving measure very hard.

As one example, in the primary residential zone in Seattle, a house can legally have only one kitchen, and up until very recently there was a legal limit on how many people could share the house.

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Unique-Gazelle2147@reddit

Why do you need more than one kitchen….

As an American planning to relocate full time in the next few years, I can live a much better life and also work a lot less due to cheaper cost of living if I earn US money. 50k in Spain or Portugal, even with higher taxes will go further than 100k USD in a lot of states.

This one is probably relativel to being a woman, but i also feel a lot safer being alone in Europe than I do in my home state in the US. I don't have to fear gun violence if im going grocery shopping or an illness wiping out all of my savings.

I adore nearly everything about my life in Europe compared to the U.S. Super clean and walkable cities, very few homeless people, 37.5 hour work week (and they mean it). Flexible work culture with focus on “flat” organizations and gender equality. Nature and mountains with hiking and skiing five minutes from my house even though I live near the city center.

I don’t work about guns or violence for myself or my kid. (Note: I’m a gun owner. I’m not anti-gun; sport shooting is a lot of fun. But nobody uses them here to shoot other people.)

My kid is growing up in a fantastic public school system where most people speak 3+ languages and are well-educated and well-traveled, even if their families aren’t “rich”.

It’s just a more… mature… culture to live in. 🤷‍♀️

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The_whimsical1@reddit

It depends upon your situation, flexibility, and skill set. I moved to Germany in 2016 after Trump's election, and then ended up staying because of personal situations. I am currently mostly in Spain, planning to move to France. My perspective:

(a) Accommodations and utilities. Rent is far less in Europe where I live. Utilities are expensive, however.

(b) Groceries and food quality. There is no comparison. Good high quality groceries are so much cheaper in Europe! Wine and beer, too. I lose weight when I visit the US now because there's really nothing I want to eat. Food quality in US is terrible now, even in "high end" places. Honestly, my local Spanish chain grocery exceeds whole foods in quality and is less than 20% of the cost. Even comparing my grocery store to say, Stop & Shop in Massachusetts, it's much less than half.

(c) Medical care is far far less in Europe. I have US insurance but scarcely need it. I broke a glass table the other day and got glass in my wrist. Emergency room visit, x-ray and stitches, 220 euros. (About $250) total.

(d) Restaurants. "Average" good restaurants here cost less than half of what they would cost in the US. Often less than a third. Tipping is included in the bottom line price, as are taxes.

(e) other things: Gas is much more here. Mechanics/automative stuff far cheaper. Computers slightly more. Clothes about the same, maybe a bit higher here, although this depends what you buy. Travel is cheaper and I find more interesting. (But I am a culture vulture and hiker.)

(f) schooling is way cheaper. Way way cheaper.

A lot of Americans romanticize the slower pace but forget that many Europeans work hard too, just with different expectations.

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minimalistboomer@reddit

Wherever you go, there you are -

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ToocTooc@reddit

That's not true. Some things simply make your life hell in some European countries.

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glwillia@reddit

i’m a dual usa/eu citizen who grew up in the usa and lived 5 years in europe. in many ways life is better, but they have many of the same complaints in europe (cost of living, pace of life, etc). you get walkable cities and public transit and much lower crime, but you give up a lot in terms of convenience (try grocery shopping on sunday for instance) and availability of literally anything you could want at a moments notice.

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muntaxitome@reddit

try grocery shopping on sunday for instance

Yeah well depends. If you’ve already stacked up a bunch of money in the US then moving to Europe for cheaper prices and more life experiences may be great. Or, if you’re dead broke in the US at least you can make a decent living while having proper healthcare in Europe.

Likewise, if you’re european and have great earning potential, moving to the US to make and save more money may be a great option.

It’s all situational. And indeed the average american may be romanticizing moving to Europe, just like the opposite happens too.

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OvidPerl@reddit

I’m 57. Moved to the UK in 2006. Lived in the Netherlands, Malta, and France. Visited many other countries. Once you get used to cultural differences (you’ll miss friends, family, and food the most), yes, it’s usually better over here.

Aside from inexpensive health care and dirt-cheap universities, you often enjoy a slower pace of life. If you get EU citizenship, there are tons of amazing countries you can live and work in to find the one that’s best for you. My favourite is France.

carnivorousdrew@reddit

Yes.

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DannyFlood@reddit

The pace of life is very different and you actually see life outside, not just people living in their cars.

I get that people find Zwarte Piet controversial, but I think it’s important to understand the cultural context. The character didn’t start as a racist caricature. It was based on the mythological creature of "Krampus" which was a servant of evil / demonic and therefore is depicted as black.

The modern look came in the 19th century and became part of the holiday culture. It wasn’t created with malicious intent, even if it looks outdated today. Not every tradition fits neatly into American racial categories, so don't be surprised when locals dislike it when Americans come along and criticise a culture they don't understand.

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marvinlbrown@reddit

But there are Black people in the Netherlands that ALSO hate Zwarte Piet? This has nothing to do with America? I think the consensus is the same, many Black people within and outside of the Netherlands roll their eyes when they are told “context matters” regarding whatever that “fictional character” is.

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SpeedySparkRuby@reddit

"But there are Black people in the Netherlands that ALSO hate Zwarte Piet?"

I'm a migrant from the US and have spent 2/3rds of my life in the developing world. I have spent a few days in a few European countries over the years and have no desire to live in or visit for any period of time.

I spent three weeks in Madrid a few years ago visiting a friend and couldn't wait to get home. I even Speak the language. To add more context, I am a boomer and was in Europe when I was young. No appeal for me.

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NiceCandle5357@reddit

Yes.

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AlbaMcAlba@reddit

For some Americans Europe works and for some Europeans American works.

People romanticize about American for different reasons than they romanticize about Europe.

There are pros and cons in both.

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Champsterdam@reddit

We moved to Europe and it’s not paradise but the mental health here and overall situation is just so much more calm and rational. People aren’t waiting to fly off the handle at others and a job is where you go during the day and then you go live your life. America was like me living to work. Here you work to live.

Also the healthcare and public transit situation is incredible beneficial. You don’t have to worry about it. You have all these options to get around. You don’t NEED your car the instant you walk out the front door.

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TheeLegend117@reddit

Grass is always greener

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Spirit4ward@reddit

og-crime-junkie@reddit

1000% truth to it. Sorry, not sorry but life is better in Europe.

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rms90042@reddit

Depends on what you value. No social safety net in US and a proliferation of guns vs a different option.

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soupy2112@reddit

I find health care confusing and underwhelming in both places I have lived recently: I am currently in Netherlands and lived in Germany before that. Mental health care is decades behind the US. From what I’ve read, it is not so much because of approach or methods but simply because of accessibility. I don’t know for sure first hand regarding current approaches because I have never been able to get an appointment in either country despite nearly 2 years of trying. They simply don’t have sufficient providers to serve the population. I think there’s also some cultural factors at play that devalue mental illness providing further barriers.

I don’t feel like my work/life balance is better in Europe than it was back in the US. I have more vacation time, sure, but everyone else that I work with has a lot of time off too which means there is some competition for who gets to pick what dates to take off. I haven’t been denied time off requests in the US but here it is seemingly pretty common that you have to clear anything with your employer before you make firm travel plans. Not a big deal I guess, but still feels weird that your work gets such say in something personal. Additionally, wages are generally quite low in Europe compared to America, so I couldn’t really afford a vacation anyway.

Having been in Europe for two years now, I would say “yes” to the title question: Americans do romanticize Europe a bit too much.

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Extra-Cold3276@reddit

Wait til you find out how much Americans romanticize life in Japan.

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deltawavesleeper@reddit

I've seen not-so-happy Francophiles or Anglophiles or many other...but unhappy Japanophiles are a different category.

Many Japan admirers do not bounce back well whether they choose to return to their home country or tough it out here in Japan.

The high quality of life is conditionally traded by constant heavy workloads. For the majority this is not a place where high quality of life happens as soon as you enter.

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Educational_Word_633@reddit

The high quality of life is conditionally traded by constant heavy workloads. For the majority this is not a place where high quality of life happens as soon as you enter.