"by design" might be the wrong way to put it but it is v0.*, which means it is not complete and it is expected to break things. When v1.0 releases, then we can talk about "dev not maintaining old versions".
It's such a bad argument. There are software on the Debian repos that have updated versions on other distros but on Debian they are "frozen" on an old version.
This is just the nature of highly volatile software like Hyprland. This wouldn't be an issue if the developer wasn't so adamant on creating a product with such ridiculous churn.
it's simply a different approach to software. I am not mad or anything that debian doesn't want to package it. I was quite surprised when they decided to package it in the first place. In reality, it led to more bad than good. Their version right now is (was?) like a year out of date or so.
When new a software project can undergo a great deal of change (often called code churn), this is because the problem space is poorly understood and the ability to plan out a solution is limited.
As a project reaches maturity the level of change in the code should decrease, the problem has become well understood. The code has been structured to solve the problem and to support upcoming problems. A mature project will have new code added with very little change to older code.
You will often see Linux subsystem maintainers argue if they can't heavily refactor an ABI every release they can't do their job. To people like myself thats like saying "after x years I still don't understand the area enough to do my job" or the ABI is still "thrashing".
Sometimes a project can be stuck "thrashing", as in thrashing around wildly making little to no progress.
This is basically when a project quickly produces a solution without taking any time to understand the problem. The solution doesn't met a need so they completely rewrite it for the new facet of the problem. That doesn't met a different need so they completely rewrite for that and so it keeps going.
Agile and DevSecOps are about enabling fast iteration and a lot of projects will use them to enable thrashing.
I have seen projects spend 6 months thrashing, when a day spent talking to the client, a day to quickly hash out a design would have delivered a full solution in under a week.
All of what you're saying hinges on the problem being clear and simple. With Hyprland, it's not. People want more and more features all the time. It's not like a device driver where it ends at "supporting what the device can do". It's not like a webapp for a company where it ends at "supports what the client requested".
We have a million "clients", with a thousand ideas for new features. The "churn" is because we decide to make our clients happy instead of telling them to go f themselves because we feel like the product is done (like e.g. sway)
We release features every 2-ish months. We release 60 bugfixes and 5 new features, for example. Gnome and KDE will release once or twice a year, with 200 bugfixes and 10 new features. It eventually comes to the exact same thing.
Wrt. code amount... it has slowed down. Doesn't mean we commit less. There are just less "big" commits. A bugfix is a bugfix regardless of whether its 2 or 20 lines.
Ultimately, there's not much different between us and KDE/Gnome outside of the release cycle.
You could've made your point without hating on sway, you know, which might not add as many features, but definitely does sometimes (e.g. color profiles).
I am not hating on sway - the developers' literal stance on it is "i3 but wayland". Features from outside the i3 featureset are almost always denied. Even proper xwayland scaling has been denied.
Sway is just highly opinionated and their opinion in maaany cases is "no".
If you just need i3 - that's great, sway will work for you. Many want more though.
What I find hilarious is that hyprland is no different than the dozen other tiling wms out there. There is nothing that makes it stand out apart from its BDFL.
It would be funny if there weren't more tiling Wayland compositors than actual users of Wayland. Meanwhile if you want a normal desktop that normal people can actually use your only choices are KDE and GNOME because nobody else has the resources required to build out a full desktop around the incredibly limited Wayland platform.
But that’s not how people use tiling WMS. They’re like a focus mode. I get a lot done in Hyprland. But then I log out and back into KDE when I’m finished. That’s why it’s okay that it’s unstable. It’s not mission critical. You gotta open your mind a little.
Plenty of us use tiling WMs full time. Heck, I’ve been using tiling WMs on the desktop exclusively for 20+ years now, going all the way back to ion (which I believe was the inspiration for i3).
Do you have anything to back up your claim? I do use tiling window managers full time and I know a lot of people that do as well, but I've never seen someone with your setup.
If you're using it like a focus mode, you don't really need the features of hyprland either. There are plenty of basic wlroots-based tiling compositors that get out of the way.
Niri really just feels like Hyprland but with a developer much more focused on functionality and stability rather than flashiness. I'm kinda glad that hyprland pulls a buncha moths to the flames so that other project's communities are a bit more sensible, honestly.
I love Niri (and use it) but there are a bunch of features Hyprland has. Look at the binds for example - Niri allows to bind modifier+key. Hyprland allows to bind mod+mod ; allow to create submap, allow to switch keys or who knows what. Niri is good because it works with less features, but it is still a strenght for hyprland. I would prefer Hyprland and I just wait for hyprscrolling plugin to evolve a bit.
if you want to help hyprscrolling evolve, run it and suggest any missing features in the issues. I periodically implement them when I have some free time, because I personally don't use scrolling, and thus don't know what it's supposed to be, so my development is purely based on "what the community wants"
Using its the hot new toy. I am actually happy there is no longer as much heat over i3wm. It’s a great WM but it was a meme because of the user base. Now all these types moved to hyperland.
A monthly release cadence is pretty aggressive and creates a ton of churn, especially for something that needs to be rock solid like a desktop environment. Many people live off of a 3/6/12 month release schedule which is completely compatible with a distribution like Debian which has very slow release cadence. I don't think its unreasonable that a large amount of development should be focused on release testing and integration (1/3 to 1/2).
I think "ridiculous" churn is totally fine for user facing apps. Human can figure it out and you do get the ridiculous benefit of actual substantials improvements. But I don't want that in bash where I actually do want to run 20 year old scripts.
Human written context: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1107152
Essentially it's removed because they were on an old version that there was no intention of maintaining upstream. Maybe there are even more packages that they ought to do this for...
We determined that the bootp client package is incapable of functioning correctly, and suspect that nobody has attempted to use it in a couple decades, give or take.
I compiled it and several tools on Ubuntu. It's doable and not even too hard, but I couldn't even be on the newest version without going overboard. Can't recommend. I'm currently in the process of switching to arch.
The actual spelling doesn't matter. AFAIK "Lunduke" is a "stage name", unless he has officially changed his name --- it was made up. He's had lots of names (Lund, Hale, Lundhale, Lund-hale, ...) . At the time he got married, he was going by "Lund" and his wife's name was "Duke".
He's looking for "clicks" or "tips" or whatever you call it. It all started as an act.
A stage name or professional name is a pseudonym used by performers, authors, and entertainers—such as actors, comedians, singers, and musicians. The equivalent concept among writers is called a nom de plume (pen name). Some performers eventually choose to adopt their stage name as a legal name.
I don’t get it. How can you run an older version then at the same time complain that it’s unmaintained? It IS maintained by Vaxry. To get the patches you have to update it. Like with every other application that exists….
I find the view difficult to read too! Worth clicking through the links and bugs to get a feel for what is going on, can also check Deb devel or other mailing lists for clues.
Worst case, the dev info page often has contact details for the maintainers
Migration status for hyprland (- to 0.41.2+ds-1.3): BLOCKED: Rejected/violates migration policy/introduces a regression
Issues preventing migration:
∙ ∙ Updating hyprland would introduce bugs in testing: #1094632
∙ ∙ blocked by freeze: is not in testing
The maintainer of hyprland has opened RC bugs in several of hyprland's dependencies since the hard freeze began, to prevent them from being included in trixie-as-stable
(That's the maintainer of the Debian package, rather than upstream.)
One such bug is [#1106520](https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1106520], which says:
our current version is lagging behind upstream by a couple versions and it would not be possible to support it during the life time of trixie
Debian is preparing to release a new Stable version this summer, and they generally don't include a package if it will not be possible to provide security support for the planned duration of the release's life.
Note: Even though Hyprland is in the trixie repos, it is still recommended to install from SID, as some dependencies in the trixie repo are outdated.
I'd say Debian is just not the distro for software that's still in a phase of very active developmemt. Which is probably why the Hyprland team seems to focus on Arch and Nix.
I wonder if it would be doable to get around this using the Nix package manager on Debian.
Debain isnt a place for any Software. Any Dev do Improvments and Quality of Live and does not being shiped while being bombarded by angry users complaining about Bugs that no longer exist. Debian and its consequences for Upstreams 💔
I'd say it falls under PEBKAK if people are unwilling to check software versions and consider what distro they're running. Debian has a specific and clearly stated project goal: delivering rock-solid stability. They do pretty damn well at that.
Zery12@reddit
hyprland cannot work on LTS distros by design, it updates ALL the time.
even on fedora you need to use a COPR, or you will be stuck in a 2024 version.
TheNinthJhana@reddit
By design? A previous version could be used. If you mean dev do not maintain old version then this is rather "by human choice" :)
jiminiminimini@reddit
"by design" might be the wrong way to put it but it is
v0.*
, which means it is not complete and it is expected to break things. Whenv1.0
releases, then we can talk about "dev not maintaining old versions".gdmr458@reddit
Hyprland use https://0ver.org/, the creator has said that he does not plan to release v1.0
jiminiminimini@reddit
Never heard of ZeroVer before :) From the "about" page: "ZeroVer is satire, please do not use it"
DonaldMerwinElbert@reddit
And the Hyprland dev is a meme addled edgelord, so it fits.
turdas@reddit
Unless you're a creationist all design is human choice.
UpsetCryptographer49@reddit
Even make needs a Makefile
calrogman@reddit
Make doesn't necessarily need a makefile:
TheNinthJhana@reddit
Grace Hopper is god and created the first compiler. All distro hopper are her son.
zackyd665@reddit
So then Anthony that updates cannot work on lts? I'm not sure I understand your argument
DonaldLucas@reddit
It's such a bad argument. There are software on the Debian repos that have updated versions on other distros but on Debian they are "frozen" on an old version.
Ezmiller_2@reddit
Do they offer a gold version?
Altruistic_Ad3374@reddit
Eh, probably for the best
79215185-1feb-44c6@reddit
This is just the nature of highly volatile software like Hyprland. This wouldn't be an issue if the developer wasn't so adamant on creating a product with such ridiculous churn.
ilikedeserts90@reddit
Vaxry is very upfront about his project. Lots of people use it anyway, or even because of its "ridiculous churn".
Vaxerski@reddit
it's simply a different approach to software. I am not mad or anything that debian doesn't want to package it. I was quite surprised when they decided to package it in the first place. In reality, it led to more bad than good. Their version right now is (was?) like a year out of date or so.
stevecrox0914@reddit
It's not new or innovative
When new a software project can undergo a great deal of change (often called code churn), this is because the problem space is poorly understood and the ability to plan out a solution is limited.
As a project reaches maturity the level of change in the code should decrease, the problem has become well understood. The code has been structured to solve the problem and to support upcoming problems. A mature project will have new code added with very little change to older code.
You will often see Linux subsystem maintainers argue if they can't heavily refactor an ABI every release they can't do their job. To people like myself thats like saying "after x years I still don't understand the area enough to do my job" or the ABI is still "thrashing".
Sometimes a project can be stuck "thrashing", as in thrashing around wildly making little to no progress.
This is basically when a project quickly produces a solution without taking any time to understand the problem. The solution doesn't met a need so they completely rewrite it for the new facet of the problem. That doesn't met a different need so they completely rewrite for that and so it keeps going.
Agile and DevSecOps are about enabling fast iteration and a lot of projects will use them to enable thrashing.
I have seen projects spend 6 months thrashing, when a day spent talking to the client, a day to quickly hash out a design would have delivered a full solution in under a week.
Vaxerski@reddit
All of what you're saying hinges on the problem being clear and simple. With Hyprland, it's not. People want more and more features all the time. It's not like a device driver where it ends at "supporting what the device can do". It's not like a webapp for a company where it ends at "supports what the client requested".
We have a million "clients", with a thousand ideas for new features. The "churn" is because we decide to make our clients happy instead of telling them to go f themselves because we feel like the product is done (like e.g. sway)
We release features every 2-ish months. We release 60 bugfixes and 5 new features, for example. Gnome and KDE will release once or twice a year, with 200 bugfixes and 10 new features. It eventually comes to the exact same thing.
Wrt. code amount... it has slowed down. Doesn't mean we commit less. There are just less "big" commits. A bugfix is a bugfix regardless of whether its 2 or 20 lines.
Ultimately, there's not much different between us and KDE/Gnome outside of the release cycle.
DHermit@reddit
You could've made your point without hating on sway, you know, which might not add as many features, but definitely does sometimes (e.g. color profiles).
Vaxerski@reddit
I am not hating on sway - the developers' literal stance on it is "i3 but wayland". Features from outside the i3 featureset are almost always denied. Even proper xwayland scaling has been denied.
Sway is just highly opinionated and their opinion in maaany cases is "no".
If you just need i3 - that's great, sway will work for you. Many want more though.
DHermit@reddit
It's not about you saying it's different, you phrased that sentence super hostile, which is just unnecessary.
Vaxerski@reddit
maybe, wasn't the intent. My bad if it sounded so
grem75@reddit
Which is why it is odd that it ever ended up in a Debian repo to begin with.
ang-p@reddit
But the people want their new shiny things now!!!
79215185-1feb-44c6@reddit
What I find hilarious is that hyprland is no different than the dozen other tiling wms out there. There is nothing that makes it stand out apart from its BDFL.
__ali1234__@reddit
It would be funny if there weren't more tiling Wayland compositors than actual users of Wayland. Meanwhile if you want a normal desktop that normal people can actually use your only choices are KDE and GNOME because nobody else has the resources required to build out a full desktop around the incredibly limited Wayland platform.
elijuicyjones@reddit
But that’s not how people use tiling WMS. They’re like a focus mode. I get a lot done in Hyprland. But then I log out and back into KDE when I’m finished. That’s why it’s okay that it’s unstable. It’s not mission critical. You gotta open your mind a little.
grizzlor_@reddit
Plenty of us use tiling WMs full time. Heck, I’ve been using tiling WMs on the desktop exclusively for 20+ years now, going all the way back to ion (which I believe was the inspiration for i3).
elijuicyjones@reddit
That anecdote changes nothing about what I said. Most people don’t. You don’t get a medal for that flex, it’s not impressive enough.
DHermit@reddit
Do you have anything to back up your claim? I do use tiling window managers full time and I know a lot of people that do as well, but I've never seen someone with your setup.
brimston3-@reddit
If you're using it like a focus mode, you don't really need the features of hyprland either. There are plenty of basic wlroots-based tiling compositors that get out of the way.
grem75@reddit
System76 seems to be doing well so far with Cosmic.
Few actually have the resources required to build a full desktop on X11 either. Most of those existing projects are working towards Wayland support.
Pandoras_Fox@reddit
Niri really just feels like Hyprland but with a developer much more focused on functionality and stability rather than flashiness. I'm kinda glad that hyprland pulls a buncha moths to the flames so that other project's communities are a bit more sensible, honestly.
TheNinthJhana@reddit
I love Niri (and use it) but there are a bunch of features Hyprland has. Look at the binds for example - Niri allows to bind modifier+key. Hyprland allows to bind mod+mod ; allow to create submap, allow to switch keys or who knows what. Niri is good because it works with less features, but it is still a strenght for hyprland. I would prefer Hyprland and I just wait for hyprscrolling plugin to evolve a bit.
Vaxerski@reddit
if you want to help hyprscrolling evolve, run it and suggest any missing features in the issues. I periodically implement them when I have some free time, because I personally don't use scrolling, and thus don't know what it's supposed to be, so my development is purely based on "what the community wants"
Mathisbuilder75@reddit
I might be wrong on some, but here are a few unique Hyprland features that come to mind:
Vaxerski@reddit
there is a lot of things Hyprland has that others don't. Just because you don't need them doesn't mean they don't exist. :)
zinozAreNazis@reddit
Using its the hot new toy. I am actually happy there is no longer as much heat over i3wm. It’s a great WM but it was a meme because of the user base. Now all these types moved to hyperland.
SMF67@reddit
Wouldn't it be an issue highly "stable" software like debian not adapting to the pace at which real world software development actually happens?
79215185-1feb-44c6@reddit
A monthly release cadence is pretty aggressive and creates a ton of churn, especially for something that needs to be rock solid like a desktop environment. Many people live off of a 3/6/12 month release schedule which is completely compatible with a distribution like Debian which has very slow release cadence. I don't think its unreasonable that a large amount of development should be focused on release testing and integration (1/3 to 1/2).
SnooCompliments7914@reddit
You must meant Firefox and Chrome.
Verwarming1667@reddit
I think "ridiculous" churn is totally fine for user facing apps. Human can figure it out and you do get the ridiculous benefit of actual substantials improvements. But I don't want that in bash where I actually do want to run 20 year old scripts.
felipec@reddit
Don't use it then.
KarnuRarnu@reddit
Human written context: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1107152
Essentially it's removed because they were on an old version that there was no intention of maintaining upstream. Maybe there are even more packages that they ought to do this for...
JockstrapCummies@reddit
Looks like the hype finally...
( •_•)>⌐■-■
...died down.
(⌐■_■)
UNSKILLEDKeks@reddit
The hype
Err
Landed
CantankerousOrder@reddit
This was the exact pun I came here to find.
CrankBot@reddit
Speaking of even more packages...
We determined that the
bootp
client package is incapable of functioning correctly, and suspect that nobody has attempted to use it in a couple decades, give or take.Critical_Ad_8455@reddit
incredible ragebait, bravo
astasdzamusic@reddit
Currently running Hyprland on Debian testing lol. Do i need to be concerned in the near term?
Able-Reference754@reddit
If you care, start compiling it yourself.
astasdzamusic@reddit
I’ll probably just switch to Unstable branch if it comes down to it
cathexis08@reddit
Debian Unstable makes for a better desktop OS anyway in my experience.
LvS@reddit
I'd do that anyway if I were you.
You're running a way outdated and unmaintained Hyprland atm after all.
580083351@reddit
It's in Ubuntu, that's an option too. Will be interesting to see how Ubuntu manages this going forward.
EarlMarshal@reddit
I compiled it and several tools on Ubuntu. It's doable and not even too hard, but I couldn't even be on the newest version without going overboard. Can't recommend. I'm currently in the process of switching to arch.
sob727@reddit
You can still use it. You won't get fixes for it though. Unless they do sthg.
Druben-hinterm-Dorfe@reddit
Looking forward to lundook attributing this martyrdom to dei-whatever.
egh128@reddit
*Lunduke
mrtruthiness@reddit
The actual spelling doesn't matter. AFAIK "Lunduke" is a "stage name", unless he has officially changed his name --- it was made up. He's had lots of names (Lund, Hale, Lundhale, Lund-hale, ...) . At the time he got married, he was going by "Lund" and his wife's name was "Duke".
egh128@reddit
I mean, I wouldn’t tip a stripper named Lunduke so I highly doubt it a “stage name”.
diffident55@reddit
You know, bud, there's other stages out there.
egh128@reddit
Too serious, homie. Lighten up some.
diffident55@reddit
dude idk what you're getting sensitive about I'm cackling over here
mrtruthiness@reddit
He's looking for "clicks" or "tips" or whatever you call it. It all started as an act.
egh128@reddit
r/whoosh
Bulkybear2@reddit
I don’t get it. How can you run an older version then at the same time complain that it’s unmaintained? It IS maintained by Vaxry. To get the patches you have to update it. Like with every other application that exists….
asm_lover@reddit
Not surprised.
It was unmaintained for the longest time.
I spread the world around in the hyprland discord server but few are interested in maintaining a debian package it seems.
HyperFurious@reddit
Well, people can use more stable desktops how KDE (laughs) or Gnome (more laughs).
relsi1053@reddit
Who uses debian anyway:))))
bubblegumpuma@reddit
you'r mom
crtcalculator@reddit
thats actually a good point
FryBoyter@reddit
An unstable software is not part of a stable distribution. How shocking.
https://bitdepth.thomasrutter.com/2010/04/02/stable-vs-stable-what-stable-means-in-software/
purplemagecat@reddit
Sounds like it was due to lack of a maintainer.
Maybe-monad@reddit
Given Hyprland's current release schedule and development process I believe that maintaining a Debian package for it should be a full-time paid job.
heraldev@reddit
For those out of the loop - what was the reason?
cripblip@reddit
There are details in the link
cripblip@reddit
I find the view difficult to read too! Worth clicking through the links and bugs to get a feel for what is going on, can also check Deb devel or other mailing lists for clues. Worst case, the dev info page often has contact details for the maintainers
No-Author1580@reddit
Perhaps I'm stupid, but it's just a link to the package tracker and it provides zero context as to what caused them to remove Hyprland.
cripblip@reddit
Migration status for hyprland (- to 0.41.2+ds-1.3): BLOCKED: Rejected/violates migration policy/introduces a regression Issues preventing migration: ∙ ∙ Updating hyprland would introduce bugs in testing: #1094632 ∙ ∙ blocked by freeze: is not in testing
aliendude5300@reddit
"our current version is lagging behind upstream by a couple
versions and it would not be possible to support it during the life time
of trixie."
AlveolarThrill@reddit
Look at the "action needed" section
BCMM@reddit
The tracker can be a bit cryptic if you're not used to it.
It references bug #1107152 as the removal reason:
(That's the maintainer of the Debian package, rather than upstream.)
One such bug is [#1106520](https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1106520], which says:
Debian is preparing to release a new Stable version this summer, and they generally don't include a package if it will not be possible to provide security support for the planned duration of the release's life.
Guillaume-Francois@reddit
Even per the Hyprland wiki, this is a problem.
I'd say Debian is just not the distro for software that's still in a phase of very active developmemt. Which is probably why the Hyprland team seems to focus on Arch and Nix.
I wonder if it would be doable to get around this using the Nix package manager on Debian.
Brisingr05@reddit
That is one solution, yes. I currently have niri (installed from the
main
branch using Nix) running in a Debian 12 VM.Guillaume-Francois@reddit
That's pretty fucking neat. Thanks for confirming that it's possible.
Left_Security8678@reddit
Debain isnt a place for any Software. Any Dev do Improvments and Quality of Live and does not being shiped while being bombarded by angry users complaining about Bugs that no longer exist. Debian and its consequences for Upstreams 💔
Guillaume-Francois@reddit
I'd say it falls under PEBKAK if people are unwilling to check software versions and consider what distro they're running. Debian has a specific and clearly stated project goal: delivering rock-solid stability. They do pretty damn well at that.
piexil@reddit
Users are supposed to open bug reports against Debian and not the packaged software directly because of this.
Of course most users don't know that, unfortunately
AcidArchangel303@reddit
Being a maintainer is hard, most just don't realize it.