I work for a major manufacture developing L2 self driving systems - I would not buy any new car today without getting the extended manufacture warranty.
Posted by ColdCouchWall@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 52 comments
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BiglyBirdWuzHere@reddit
I drive an out of warranty 130k mile Tesla. None of this shit has happened to me. I call bull shit.
natesully33@reddit
This is why we need right-to-repair laws with teeth, carmakers should be required to design cars with repair-ability in mind from the start.
Also, cars don't need to be like this. Telsa/Rivian/Lucid combine many ECUs into fewer computers doing more things, so there aren't assorted computers sprinkled throughout the vehicle. I expect more carmakers to do do going forward.
Hybrids from legacy carmakers are pretty crazy (I've fiddled with OBDII on my 4xE, it's... busy) but I suspect future BEVs are actually doing to get simpler due to that computer consolidation. From experience with Tesla service mode, they are actually simpler to do basic diagnostics on and in many cases don't even require extra tools.
NightKnown405@reddit
Combining modules instead of having discreet components isn't a perfect solution. By combining systems you create more of a chance that a more expensive module will fail instead of a cheaper one.
Part of what you have said about onboard diagnosticsq getting easier is correct. But what happens when a problem occurs that shuts down the central display in the Tesla? Now the car cannot help guide even the simplest of the diagnostic functions and the skill level to efficiently analyze the problem rises exponentially?
natesully33@reddit
Modern computer hardware is really reliable when not hyper cost-optimized and designed for automotive environments (use the good caps!). A module based on off-the-shelf computing hardware, basically phone or laptop bits, should not be crazy expensive either. Fewer modules should decrease the chance of failure too, since all of them need to work for the car to fully work having more is like a RAID 0 where each added disk makes array failure more likely.
A quick google says $2-3k to replace the "car computer", the main module, in a Tesla 3/Y. Not cheap but also not something people do very often. They are available used much cheaper than that, of course since they made quite a few of them.
If you lose the screen in a Tesla, you'll need to pay up for a Toolbox subscription and use that via a web browser to diagnose the car. Sucks to have to pay but there is no technical obstacle to you diagnosing your car. Some aftermarket scan tools apparently support Tesla as well, I have not personally used them so I'm not sure if they are as capable as Toolbox.
Modern cars require lots of software and computers to meet regulatory requirements and market expectations, so there's only so much that can be done. Much as I love pre-screen cars that ship has sailed (Slate aside - maybe, sort of).
LobsterSuspicious836@reddit
A raspberry pi is $50... every module on a car should have each peice of code needed to run all the systems. And when you plug a new computer back into the connection port, you toggle a manual switch to have the newly installed computer select the code for... backup camera sensor.
NightKnown405@reddit
That Google search that came up with your estimate of 2000-3000 to replace "the computer" is ridiculous. That kind of money would service a number of modules on most cars.
I wonder if you can figure out what I actually do for a living......
natesully33@reddit
You gotta multiply that cost by the chance of it failing out of warranty, and compare that to the same for a multi-module setup though. Wish I had the data to do that...
NightKnown405@reddit
No you don't. You are assuming that the module(s) will fail. The reality is maybe they will, and maybe they won't. The reality is today's cars don't fail and need repairs anywhere near as frequently as the cars did in the past in spite of how many modules are on the vehicle. There is still the problem of owners treating them like they are an appliance instead of a machine where regular service and repair is necessary. When people actually understand how to maintain a car correctly 200,000 miles is easy to achieve in today's cars, and with any necessary repairs along the way they can last double that or more.
natesully33@reddit
Your original point was that a single expensive module costs more if/when it fails than a set of cheaper ones. Your second point is that you could replace several modules for the cost of the Tesla main computer. I'm pointing out that the actual long-term repair costs to the owner could be the same, or even lower, with fewer/fancier modules - but I don't know for sure.
NightKnown405@reddit
You'll have to trust me on this, because it's what I do for a living. Discreet modules are the less expensive approach because it's not only the modules that are in play. With one centralized module the result could be the main one needing replaced with each failure instead of a much less expensive one. PLUS the one centralized module would require longer wires to each sensor and actuator making for a much more expensive wiring harness or harnesses and connectors throughout the vehicle. Honda's MICU approach is an example of what is really possible. You can have multiple identical modules, that simply need different software all around the vehicle each just taking care of the needs of just that section of the car. That means you only need power, ground and communication to that module. Plus much shorter wires to the actuators and any switches and sensors that need to create inputs for the vehicle.
1988rx7T2@reddit
so what are you proposing?
NightKnown405@reddit
I'm not really proposing anything at this time. I'm just pointing out that the perspective in that previous response is trying to solve a problem that doesn't universally exist. Plus the proposed idea is more likely to create a much bigger problem for someone else such as instead of a $100 module failing and needing replaced, now a module that costs many times more needs replaced just because a single portion of it developed an issue.
Another key aspect of having multiple modules is simplification of the wiring harnesses. If you try to do everything with just one module then every sensor and actuator will have to be wired directly to it no matter how far away it is. By having discreet modules now you only need powers, grounds and communication for the module and maybe only the actuators that it needs to control.
natesully33@reddit
Rivian just combined their modules to reduce wiring (https://www.popsci.com/technology/rivian-zonal-electrical-architecture/), Ford has pointed out they have a similar issue in the Mach-E.
Apparently the extra wiring to the sensors and actuators is cancelled out by arranging modules in a nice tree structure. Wish that article had a diagram showing the tree.
NightKnown405@reddit
There is a balancing act in play. Some consolidation has advantages, just like using multiple nodes has other advantages. The overall best possible result is going to be found somewhere in the middle.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Maybe the actual reason is that the regulators have mandated so many different subsystems into vehicles in the name of safety or emissions that cars now have hundreds of different sensors that can fail and be extremely expensive to replace.
Governments around the world chose to turn cars into Rube Goldberg machines.
grumpymosob@reddit
This whole post sounds like an ad for extended warranty to me. Extended warranty's are a scam. As someone who works in the automotive industry they are the biggest scam in the industry. They almost magically never cover your particular repair, and the minute it costs more to honor the warranty than to than your paying, they cancel cancel your warranty. Your local mechanic understands and can maintain your car just fine.
Ibotthis@reddit
Anecdotally, I disagree, depending on your car brand. My mom had a Pontiac G5 that ended up costing many thousands more over its warranty period than was paid. She had a completely new transmission installed year 4 for free. Her current Cruze has also had way more work done for free than the warranty was. Some brands seem to be worth the warranty, though you could argue choosing a different, more reliable brand upfront might have been even smarter.
ColdCouchWall@reddit (OP)
You’re probably thinking of 3rd party warranties. Manufacture extended warranties have a tier that is essentially bumper to bumper and covers everything except wear items.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
What's so hard about replacing a particular module, reprogramming/resetting everything?
ColdCouchWall@reddit (OP)
Yes, and a lot of them are buried. Some electronic module and actuator will cost $500-1000+ and then require $500-1000 in labor (minimum) plus some $300-500 diagnostic fee and then recalibration.
Even just diagnosing them requires expensive equipment
CorrectCombination11@reddit
So your job security comes at the cost to consumers. Sounds like the wolf is already inside the hen house.
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didimao0072000@reddit
Cars were borderline garbage 20 years ago compared to what we have today. Anyone claiming otherwise either didn’t live through it or is suffering from selective nostalgia. Back then, it was normal to deal with mufflers rusting out, belts snapping without warning, manually greasing suspension joints, and changing your oil every 3,000 miles. Once you hit 50,000 miles, the creaks, rattles, and mysterious fluid leaks started rolling in like clockwork. Today’s cars? Night and day. I can hop into my car with 150,000 miles on the clock and drive it across the country without a second thought. No anxiety, no checklist of backup parts in the trunk, no praying the transmission doesn't decide to give up halfway through Kansas. Modern vehicles are built tighter, last longer, and require a fraction of the maintenance.
737northfield@reddit
Bro, 20 years ago was 2005.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
lol
BMW's S54 was torching rod bearings and the tradition was about to continue with the S65 and S85, along with throttle actuator and VANOS issues. They were also about to release one of the most notoriously unreliable engines they've ever made, the N63.
Audi's BHF 4.2L V8 was snapping timing chain guides and bricking engines with only 75k miles
The LS7 would soon be out to drop valves on anyone who dares to push it
Porsche's IMS bearing were grenading 911 and Boxster engines
Ferrari/Maserati's F1 transmission and Lamborghini's E-Gear will gladly run through clutches in under 10k miles
Kia and Hyundai were still complete bottom tier garbage brands the way people currently view the Mitsubishi Mirage
didimao0072000@reddit
And twenty years ago, people claimed cars were harder to fix because fuel injection was more complex than carburetors, and anti-lock disc brakes were more complicated than simple drum brakes. Twenty years from now, people will say that cars from 2025 were better because they were simpler. People believed the past was better without understanding how things were or how much progress has been made.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
People tend to focus only on the good things they remember about the past and not the bad. It's like when you find someone with a 50 yr old refrigerator and someone says "ahh they don't make them like they used to!" and maybe that is true or maybe you found the one good one and aren't remembering the 10 million others they made that have been in landfills for the past 30 years. There is always a bit of confirmation bias.
737northfield@reddit
The irony is that they were wrong, maybe like you are.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
My 2002 Accord with a 90s engine has a 7,500 mile interval for oil changes.
And it was way better put together than my Maverick, and it's not even close.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
$2000 repair for what? A $100 part and $1900 for 30 minutes of labor?
hi_im_bored13@reddit
going to take the under on this and say on older cars simply those features didn't exist and if that feature fails on a new car you don't have to repair it. active cruise control fails? cool, my old car didn't even have the option in the first place.
warranty companies aren't stupid, they know where the money is, better off just investing whatever you'd put in a warranty and determining on a case-by-case basis if its even worth repairing. electronic parking brake dies? yeah I'll get on that. ambient lighting? whatever, we'll be fine
barryicide@reddit
The problem is when the company bricks your entire car because a "critical" (a.k.a. "you might sue us if it goes wrong") system fails. Active Cruise control? That uses the same sensors as the automatic braking system (a requirement by the NHTSA starting in 2029) -- automakers won't want to get sued by someone who said "the automatic braking failed and you still allowed me to drive 100 mph into a wall" so automakers will lean towards "limp mode" where you can't go over 20 mph. A $5 printed circuit board will make your car undriveable and the only fix will be the OEM charging you $2,500 for the part with $7,500 in labor at a dealership (because only dealerships will have the $100,000 "calibration software" that can tell the car to unbrick itself).
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I don't know the regulation on this but I've been in car where the assist system completely failed and it was completely drivable just with a warning/error on the dash
trail-g62Bim@reddit
Mine just disables itself if it can't use its sensors -- usually either due to rain or sunlight. The car remains drivable. Though I suppose an outage due to rain is different from "flat out broken."
DudebuD16@reddit
I'll be leasing till I die at this point. Id rather not have to deal with any new car out of warranty. Plus my wife likes to change cars every 4 years on average despite her telling me she's gonna keep it for 10 lol.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
Honestly, leasing makes sense for a lot more people that most would think, considering how fast people seem to jump to the next car loan.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
Yet another thing that sucks about FL. Extended warranties are regulated like insurance, not sure all the details on that. What it means though is the same extended warranty that cost $3,500 in GA is $11,000 in FL.
ColdCouchWall@reddit (OP)
Use the address of a friend in any other state. It doesn't effect things. At least for Ford.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
Interesting idea. I wonder if there’s anyway that can bite me and/or if ford checks the vin for where it’s registered.
DSessom@reddit
This is exactly why fewer people are electing to purchase new cars and are instead seeking out good, used cars. I personally have a 2008 Corvette and 2005 SRT-10 Ram pickup, both of which are paid off. I can easily maintain them both, and will drive them until I die most likely.
speednub1@reddit
complexity =/= reliability. And what are you talking about, what modules are $1500- $2000 that have high failure rates on a 2025 corolla? Let’s say there even was a $2000 module, it probably needs replacing on a small percentage of cars every dozen years. Cars last way longer now than they did even 15 years ago.
The warranties are provided to do one thing; make money. And they make money from people who do not understand the math, like you.
737northfield@reddit
I once met someone in a similar role. He told me that Mazda's rushed implementation scared him, and he claimed they easily had the worst ADAS systems in the industry because the culture at the company simply doesn't GAF. Can you back that up? I always found that kind of funny.
speednub1@reddit
this is like saying i’m a flight attendant don’t buy a 787 lmao
DrZedex@reddit
People have been saying this about new cars since the dawn of time. EFI, ABS, vvt, turbos, transmissions with more than 4 ratios, hell even power seats/windows have caused people to don their pitch field. Tale as old as time, and yet cars keep getting better and better.
Just like in the past, the cream will rise to the top. Some models will be engineered to last or at least be repairable, others won't. It's not always easy to see which are which, but you don't need a crystal ball to make a pretty educated guess.
Spicywolff@reddit
I got Max care from Carmax that is underwritten by Fidelity. It’s already paid itself off and I still have three years of coverage left. I’m well aware about how complex and hard to fix cars are nowadays.
I can do all the maintenance at home and I do. But repairs and diagnostics. I bring it to a trusted shop.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
insomniaczombiex@reddit
I got an extended warranty when I bought my car in 2016. I paid $2800 for the warranty. It paid out over $9,000 in repairs.
NightKnown405@reddit
I won't buy any extended service insurance policy. It's not actually a warranty if you really think about it. But otherwise yes, the cars are getting to be more complex and yet with proper training and tooling they are actually getting easier to diagnose and work on in general. There will be things that are much more complicated such as problems that disrupt onboard communication between modules. When those kinds of problems occur and the onboard diagnostic systems can't help and then everything falls squarely on the abilities of the service technician.
ColdCouchWall@reddit (OP)
You don't buy it from any company other than the official warranty by the manufacture. The Ford ESP Premiumcare is almost essentially a bumper to bumper warranty.
EnvironmentalMood863@reddit
I got the extended for a 22 Outback.
If the eyesense system starts having any issues I know for a fact I don’t want to be the one dealing with it. Nor do I think I’d be able to easily replace a lot of it myself. Basic maintenance sure, still not bad. It’s the added technology that can bring pain.
Our dealer was straight up with us and said 99% of people never use it, but reiterated basically what you said in this post. It’s the “if”.
I personally feel things are getting too complicated for next to no good reason on a lot of vehicles now.
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