Rant: Do NOT pay out of pocket to time build to ATP MINS

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Wabbotty9@reddit

See this drives me nuts. I’m a 1300hr pilot right now. 850 high performance/complex hours. 800xc hours. Never failed a checkride. I’m just not a CFI.

You mean to tell me that a part 141 robot who sat in the right seat of a 172 teaching other robots for 750 hours is better prepared to fly a jet all over the country?! No chance. I’ve flown with plenty of 141CFI’s. Some of them are great at what they do. Their ground knowledge is excellent. However I’ve seen them be so far behind a plane going 160kts they might as well have been in the back seat - 1 month later they’re getting their CRJ type rating. Seems like a safety hazard to me…

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FlyingShadow1@reddit

And yet I've met people who built 1000 hours splitting Cessna 150 time and are now sitting in a global.

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Timing / luck / right place right time

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Rev-777@reddit

Best comment of the thread.

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Frosty_Piece7098@reddit

God I hate this industry.

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Automalone@reddit

I was just told at the PAPA expo numerous times that airlines are starting to appreciate seeing pilots going out and getting that real world flying done, as an employee or not. Particularly, they are seeing all these hired CFIs struggle in training with the flying stuff. Too much right seat, instructing in the pattern, and not enough actually flying. Certainly, building hours as a 135 pilot look much better than a self funded time builder, but many employers have not discounted those loner’s experience as your carrier has.

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boobooaboo@reddit

Amazing how things have changed. I know someone who built time this way, flew 700 hours at Skywest and got hired at delta. Now? Wouldn't even get looked at by a regional.

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Yep my CFI went from 1500 to a major in 2 years with no college degree and multiple Checkride busts

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Gaffer_DCS@reddit

“We have 4000 applications on file”

Would just like to remind you that those 4000 applicants also have applied to Envoy, Skywest, PSA, PDT, Republic, Frontier, Breeze etc…

A friend of mine (1500hr CFI) just got hired during the last window and even though those airlines were hiring for only a few weeks, ended up getting 3 CJO’s (and turning down two).

So while 4000 sounds like a lot, the number of pilots who would accept a CJO at a time when all of the regionals are hiring is probably a much smaller number.

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Exactly. Everyone spams their resume to every company.

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sens72713@reddit

Everytime I come over these threads I‘m quite happy I fly in EASA-land for over a year at a flag carrier with still just under 1500hrs of experience. Still I admire the dedication of everybody going through the FAA system but I guess it’s very time and money consuming…

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BoeDinger1225@reddit

Flying straight ans level from 250->1500 must be pretty boring anyway

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Over-Seaweed114@reddit

Actually you gain way more experience have way more interesting flights than doing steep turns everyday as a cfi.

I flew to a new part of the country and new airports everyday, did dog rescue flights, whale watching up the west coast from San Diego to San Francisco and many other experiences. , including multiple class B airspace and airports, where dis dont fly farther than 30 min from their home airport unless they are doing a country, in that case 100 miles and back foe their time limit.

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throtic@reddit

How do you afford to do that though lol

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OzrielArelius@reddit

step 1: be rich

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Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit

Step 2: profit

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No_Currency5230@reddit

Teaching 1000 hrs of maneuvers must be pretty boring too

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Distinct-Promotion90@reddit

You have no idea.

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cameldrv@reddit

I knew a guy that bought at 152 and just flew all around the country for a year. It seems like it could be pretty fun.

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KindaSortaGood@reddit

6 GPH aint bad either (Thats what I get in my 150) 152 is probably a tad more

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juniorfromgh@reddit

Is that most of ppl cfiing

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dmspilot00@reddit

Uh almost none of my time was spent flying straight and level.

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dagassman@reddit

Your poor students

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BoeDinger1225@reddit

Not at all. You’re always trying to teach something. It’s never just mindless straight and level. It makes the 1500 go by so much quicker

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juniorfromgh@reddit

You must've been do 100 a month. Because I don't know about quick when most only gets 30-40

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BoeDinger1225@reddit

Yea i did about 130 a month

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Rainebowraine123@reddit

That's insane!

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Valid__Salad@reddit

I was doing 70-80 a month and it took about two years. In retrospect, it went by quickly and for the most part, the days and lessons flew by, but there were times when the day was absolutely dragging.

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Bakes00@reddit

Not if you’re good at your job/care about your students

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Especially as a safety pilot! Safety passenger

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snailmale7@reddit

Even more boring from the ground looking up....

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ShadowyCollective@reddit

It's red flag period that somebody pays to fly after getting commercial & cfi.
It's like those dudes that pay for the own types to do 91's....just fly for a 135 with no contract for a minute then leave if u want to do 91....

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PrayForWaves117@reddit

Oh wow almost as if CFI soft skills are valued outside of piston CFIing. Who woulda thought in an industry that has a training department, check airmen, sim guys.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

But I was told it’s just flying in circles!!

/s

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sprulz@reddit

I don't think there's any statement about instructing that grinds my gears more than this one. I know it's easy to bag on instructing and devalue what CFIs do but if it was so easy why didn't you do it? I've deadass seen people get mad that their time flying straight and level in their own airplanes is seen as less valuable than actual professional aviation experience.

Like congratulations, you flew across the country in your Mooney. I'm sure that was an incredible learning experience. But you've never held an actual job in the industry and you're surprised that regionals might think twice about hiring you?

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EnvironmentCrafty710@reddit

What people seem to miss (constantly) is that it's not about the flying "skills". It's all the other stuff. The stick and rudder stuff doesn't translate to jets and isn't "the job" anyway... it's all the other stuff.

You don't get that other stuff flying around in your own plane. You tick the 1500hr mark and that's valuable because it has to be ticked, but the "other stuff" is what actually matters. The 1500hr thing is just a metric they chose as a stand in for the other stuff as the other stuff is very hard to quantify.

And here you're seeing it spelled out more clearly, but it's the same story.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

Gotta have both. But I think teaching well (key emphasis on well) helps with stick and rudder skills. I became a better stick by teaching. Explaining turning tendencies, AOA, and energy management to a brand new kid learning to fly really helps you anticipate and respond intuitively in flight.

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EnvironmentCrafty710@reddit

Sure, but that's not my point.
My point is that it isn't important to hiring.

No one cares about your stick and rudder skills. They care if you can operate in a two person environment. They're concerned if you can operate in a corporate environment and follow the rules. They want to know that you can understand systems and procedures.

Your short field crosswind technique in a supercub is pretty meaningless next to knowing if you can work with people no matter how you feel about them or that you can follow company procedures, again, no matter how you feel about them.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

Is there any particular reason you think that? I respectfully disagree that it doesn't matter, although I entirely agree that it pales relative to one's ability to work with people.

Flying ability is difficult to judge from an interview, and no degree of stick and rudder ability will make up for personality deficiencies when interviewing to be part of a multi-pilot crew. Still, if a hiring team knows someone is a decent stick (throughs sims, letters of rec, previous experiences, etc.), it matters. Good sticks have a better chance of completing training and being safe on the line, at least all other factors being equal.

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EnvironmentCrafty710@reddit

> Is there any particular reason you think that? I respectfully disagree that it doesn't matter, although I entirely agree that it pales relative to one's ability to work with people.

To me, you're saying exactly the same thing I'm saying... which makes it a semantics thing to me.

I don't get wrapped up in "absolutes". To me "It doesn't matter" and "Pales in comparison" are the same thing here.. cuz I'm saying that relative to getting along with others, yeah, your stick and rudder skills are essentially meaningless. Of course, I'd say they're "meaningless", but then I'd catch grief for saying meaningless.

I mean, your penchant for wearing nice socks is also technically not "meaningless", but in reality, yeah... it is meaningless.

And no, it's not meaningful at all to hiring.
If it were, then you'd take a flight. The time, money and effort of a simple flight would pale in comparison to the time money and effort wasted by hiring the wrong pilot.

I work in a sector of aviation where stick and rudder skills are important, and you bet your keester that we fly with every single pilot we're so much as considering hiring. Cuz it matters to us.

Does it matter to the airlines? No. Not in any meaningful way. Sure, you can argue about how it's an expression of things that will matter, but again, if it actually did... they'd fly with people.. especially before investing that much into them.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

How much does it cost to fly with one of your applicants? And how does that compare to what it would cost the airlines to do the same?

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EnvironmentCrafty710@reddit

Wow dude, you must just be arguing to argue here. Seriously?

Stick and rudder is stick and rudder... it costs us exactly the same as it would cost an airline.

If stick and rudder skills are what's important, then the plane flown is of zero consequence. I can tell if you know what you're doing in one lap in a 150. Any knucklehead that's applying for an airline will be able to fly that lap, and any knucklehead instructor can tell you if the applicant is a "good stick" or not from that one lap.

So if being a "good stick" meant anything to an airline, they'd do a lap in whatever plane was handy. There's a zillion 172s out there... take your pick.

But they don't, because it doesn't. And you know this. But you're digging in for "the good fight".

Whatever mate. Put the beer down and go to bed.

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dmspilot00@reddit

I had a sim partner that built all his time in his own plane. He kept saying "gear down" after takeoff. like lol what is wrong with you?

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HardCorePawn@reddit

Obviously he was just really far ahead of the aircraft and was already on final... /s

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RegionalJet@reddit

Same with people who say it's just doing traffic patterns all day. Can always tell that they were never a CFI (or a really bad one who couldn't teach landings effectively).

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Striderrs@reddit

I recall a post on reddit a while back about a guy trying to make the argument that his self-funded adventure across the U.S. in his warrior (or whatever shitbox it was) was superior to time building jobs - specifically CFI. It's laughable.

Instructing teaches you two sets of skills - the flying ones and the interpersonal ones. Both are extremely important to being a well rounded professional at all stages of your career.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

I agree. The few times I worked part-time survey or ferry jobs, it was a break from the challenge of instructing. Nothing drives home the fundamentals like having to figure out how to teach them to someone else.

That said, I enjoy teaching. It’s probably easier to learn more from the experience if you don’t hate it.

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Unlucky_Geologist@reddit

For reference most sim instructors I met that actually teach were former military turned 121. I think I've had 1 non military sim instructor in my career and they were a CFI for like 250 hours. Being a Check Airmen also has nothing to do with being a CFI. You're essentially ensuring that training from the sim is transferring to the jet. If you have to teach your new hire how to fly or the sops regularly they're going to be sent back to training.

As much as I value a CFI over a time builder the title is worthless the second you get to your first airline. It doesn't give you a leg up over anybody who isn't a fair-weather day vfr flyer. Part 135 and real 91 / 91k at least give you real world operational experience. Those skills are actually valued.

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PrayForWaves117@reddit

Sounds like cope

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Unlucky_Geologist@reddit

Cope for what? I instructed in part 135, had a lca job offer at my regional and I’m at a legacy now. That’s just the reality of the world. Every pilot you meet in an endgame career position has instructed. Everyone has those “soft skills”. When 99% of working pilots have the same title it’s worthless. Your job now is to manage a plane. Your experience as a CFI doesn’t transfer and it’s fine that’s why training is 3 months.

It’s critical to have a real job usually CFI to get a job but, you have to stop acting like it’s a world changing thing. Nobody cares what you used to do all they care about is if you’re competent.

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PopSalt9983@reddit

Nnnnooo going from a piston single engine to an A320 is easy and safe from all the CRM and practical applications CFIs get during there 200th power on stall

/s

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Unlucky_Geologist@reddit

Day 1 at my regional was crazy talking to other FO’s. The war stories were like 30 knot winds, bad students, diverting for weather, actually shooting an approach, and engine roughness in the pattern. Coming from 135 I was thinking “these are normal daily operational conditions”. Didn’t take much for ground and sim instructors to realize I knew what I was doing and put most of their focus on the other FO’s. Hell my sim partner had like 65% of our total sim time. I still find the jump from CFI to a regional crazy. Some form of 91 / 135 should definitely come between it.

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mad_catters@reddit

When 99% of working pilots have the same title it’s worthless.

I think this post is more specific to regional hiring, where there are a lot of applicants who literally drop skydivers or flew their cirrus for 1,500 hours and have never had to work with another pilot before.

But yeah at the legacy level no one cares that you were a CFI. To be fair no one even really cares what you did.. I guess if you have space shuttle landings thats a neat story to tell in the brief, but all they reallt care about is that you can fly an airliner.

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MarionberryChemical9@reddit

I’m curious how it’s sorted as cfis who also timebuild. For instance 1000 dual given and 500 time building. I’m aware no one is getting in right at 1500 but I wonder what pile they go into or just in between

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Largos_@reddit

Chief pilot from one of the larger regionals told us we need to have at least 75% of our hours either exercising our commercial cert in some capacity or from training. The other 25% can be time building. I’d imagine that’s probably going to be pretty universal.

Someone with 1250 dual given and 250 from training is going to be ahead of someone with 750 dual given, 500 time building and 250 training, but it’s not going to factor in against someone with 1150 dual given, 100 time building, and 250 from training.

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NightAngel9360@reddit

Ahhh the new Horizon training policy. I am curious to see if it will stick around when the industry isn’t flush with pilots.

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Bastinglobster@reddit

And if you time build while in the cadet program which seems to be higher weight than cfi

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Hdjskdjkd82@reddit

Probably not at your airline but we’ve been doing something similar. The important thing for the company is how trainable you are to them, guys who solely time build are a lot more difficult to train and far more likely to struggle in training over someone from 135 or with solid instrument experience and knowledge. We still like CFI’s specifically those who are CFI-I and plenty of instrument lessons. We don’t care about multi time unless you have less than 25 hours.

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SkyhawkPilot@reddit

CFII here - any good way to highlight I do a lot of instrument training? Right now I mention it under the job descriptions on my resume, but I could have an “instrument instruction” column in my times. Although that feels like it’s overkill and makes it cluttered.

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Hdjskdjkd82@reddit

That is overkill. The recruiters know what they are looking for and what they need to see when they look at your app. CFI-I and the standard summary is all they need.

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NationalReading3921@reddit

I actually kept an instrument instruction tally for a while. There’s a minimum requirement to be a 141 instrument assistant Chief.

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VxAngleOfClimb@reddit

I wouldn’t go as far as having another column in your logbook, but rather something like “trained x# of pilots for their instrument ratings with a xx% pass rate”

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TelephoneClean7140@reddit

So airlines don’t care about MEI?

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sprulz@reddit

FWIW I got a CJO with 26 multi. I think having more ME time helps because some regionals are definitely using it rn to thin out their pool but many aren’t.

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Hdjskdjkd82@reddit

Well it’s an extra point on your application, so to say they don’t care isn’t true. But there are other things that stand out more. Idk about other airlines, but my airline doesn’t care too much about multi time unlike how it was a decade ago when multi time was considered a good way to stand out like it was a decade ago. We are prioritizing cadets, and then for people off the street turbine time and part 135 (single engine time is fine) seem to be the next best thing to have, or instructing with plenty of total time.

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juniorfromgh@reddit

But then that'll be an additional 2-3 years going 135 before the airlines.

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Mobe-E-Duck@reddit

To pile it on, an insider recruiting at a regional told me they were told they’re just not hiring second career types. It all seems so arbitrary to be honest.

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PopSalt9983@reddit

This is probably accurate

Much easier to deal with a kid who signed the loan or had mommy and daddy pay for their 141 time

Especially if they think they’re a hot shit CFI they’ll gladly pull up the ladder behind them if the exces ask

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Ok-Gur5543@reddit

Interesting tier list. I’m a survey guy and have more multi PIC than single engine time. I report to a chief pilot and have an intense work schedule. And I get put into the same bracket as an “out of pocket time builder”?

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PopSalt9983@reddit

Yeah, CFIs are simply more professional than you

According to every CFI and CFI 121 guys on here

Every single other experience is just less professional than the CRM you develop by teaching others how to fly piston airplanes

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

I agree that’s silly. When I flew survey I was literally handed a high performance multi engine plane and expected to handle it by myself and fly it across the country completing missions. The only downside of survey is very little IFR time.

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Miserable_Team_2721@reddit

I agree. I am flying survey in a multi exercising my PIC decision making. I fly to different airports all the time, coordinating with busy class B airspace.

I have learned an amazing amount more than I could have ever imagined as a CFI beating up the pattern.

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SaucyPastaSauce@reddit

CFI was a lot more than “beating up the pattern” lol you must never have instructed

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Same. I flew across like half a dozen states in a month flying solo. Different terrain, new airports every time, and managing maintenance and oil changes during that time.

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Odd_Fortune5970@reddit

Cope harder

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flyindogtired@reddit

DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

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Pilot_Indiscretion@reddit

Counterpoint: If you’re time building, go Network. Meet someone who is willing to slide your resume to the hiring committee. That means actually meeting people. Go find someone at your local airport. Go get a ramp job with an airline and network with the higher ups.

If there’s indeed 4,000 applicants on file and most are CFIs, then all being a CFI does is put you in the same 4,000 person bucket as everyone else.

So the differentiator isn’t being a CFI. The differentiator is having a reason to pull your application and not the other 1,500 hour CFI (or the other, or the other, etc)

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jjkbill@reddit

I'm surprised surveying and banner towing aren't regarded at least equal to CFI time.

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Competitive_Oil_6599@reddit

Horse Manure. Hey, does anybody out there like me let me tell you I have 21,000 hours plus now. The narrowminded BS you’re listening to Here is just a narrowminded BS bull. Just keep working your butt off getting every bit of flight time. You can no matter how you get it until you get all the boxes filled. Don’t give a darn what some dork tells you about their airline. First off it’s not their Airline. They’re just a fn employee. Just work, your butt off to get every last second of flight time and then try to get quality work. If you can get quality to work in between getting your flight time in great. Do that. But just keep going. And don’t do it in the eyes of trying to have it pay off getting a job sometime. But you gotta have all the boxes filled when something happens along. I’m at the largest main line international carrier in the US now and have been there since 2007. All I have is a GED. And it wasn’t because I was goofing off when I was young. I was working my tail off. I lived in a hangar from 1993 to 2005. I was not a CFI. I am as gringo anglo saxon as you come. The only thing I had going for me was having an A&P IA since the youngest, you can have one. And the standards that they wanted, the regionals were no different now then when I got hired in 2001. And at the time all I have was four years as a Flight engineer on DC-8. And at the time I had 1600 and the doofus’s at the regional didn’t know the difference between a second officer and a copilot. But I still passed because I made dang sure I did. And all my upper body said don’t leave the heavy jet. That’s what they wanna see. And I said no they want PIC Jet to get on them at the major. But I was young and dumb, and I thought what I thought. So I left the DC8 and got on at the regional. So besides being Mechanic and Inspector on everything from jet engine to piston to sheet metal and just a GED I still got on at the major. Why? Because I kept putting out my résumé nonstop every month going back and updating it if I got a new flight, Physical, I went back and updated. Every month changed a period, or a .01 in Flight time I updated no matter what. Just keep doing and showing up. Maybe it’ll happen maybe it won’t but you keep on pushing and being careful where you put your feet, because you’re the only one responsible for that. You do you and understand that you’re listening to a bunch of doofus’s minded dork companies with children making the rules, and it takes one to no one, just like me. Keep pushing.

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saml01@reddit

I am not even in the industry and i am not surprised. Why would i hire a cfi over a guy that went from 500 to 1500 at a part 135 where this person spent time learning not only how to fly but also everything else at a much smaller scale?

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danster__@reddit

How’s the overseas job market looking like for professional pilots in third world countries.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

But I was downvoted and told that CFIing is no better than some dude flying a clapped out 172 using some foggles flying IFR to some airport 60 miles away.

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Key_Slide_7302@reddit

Truth is a hard pill to swallow for some.

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theoriginalturk@reddit

CFI is third tier on this list..

Flying clapped out trainers within 60 miles of the home airport sounds exactly like what 90% of CFIs I know spend 80% of their time doing

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

Correct but to the FAA and some Kool-Aid drinkers on here the “1500hr rule” was a good idea for “safety” when the last 1000hrs someone has is total BS doing VFR pattern work with students. Has no bearing on anything they will be doing at any airline or charter.

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themeatspin@reddit

But those guys aren’t getting hired. So the 1,500 rule is in black and white, and the gray is the airlines want experience versus what you said.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

Well considering 3 that did exactly this 2 worked for a regional and one recently moved to NJ and one is at a similar company to NJ they absolutely are being hired.

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themeatspin@reddit

I guess a more accurate response would be ‘those guys aren’t getting hired like 2-3 years ago’

It ebbs and flows. For the OP, his airline is putting pay to get 1,500 hours at the bottom of the barrel. That might change in a few years when they need pilots.

Call me a Kool-Aid drinker, but in over 20 years of flying, my experience is that a 1,500 hour guy is measurably safer than the old standard of 250 hours.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

Says the guy that has been flying for 20yrs and passed the 250hr rule. How did you ever survive?

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themeatspin@reddit

You’re missing the point. Good luck to you in your future flying.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

No I didn’t miss anything. It’s the typical once you get in you want the door shut behind you. How about remove the 1500 and make it 250 actual USEFUL hours? Solid IFR, chuck the foggles after the first 10, busy airspace. Not CFi in a clapped out warrior or flying pipeline or survey work.

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scottdwallace@reddit

Can’t tell if this is sarcasm or serious. 250hr “solid IFR” guy at an airline? If you’re being serious, then I hate to burst your bubble. You don’t even know what you don’t know at 250hrs. 1500 in an airliner has multiple humbling experiences already.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

So how did everyone survive before 2010? I’m just pointing out what everyone knows. Flying with PPL students daily to get to that magic 1500 is useless when you jump in a ERJ.

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scottdwallace@reddit

I feel like we are saying the same thing. My regional had low minimums, but competitive mins were much higher. 2-3k with turbine time was the starting point. A lot of shitty flying was done to get to that point.

Teaching people to fly in a 172 makes you really good at just that. It has no bearing on 121, multi crew ops.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

That’s exactly my point, all this 1500hr rule did was make it expensive. Occasionally someone can land a gig flying right seat in a king air for experience but mostly it’s CFI’s burning useless time. They show up at the interview and know very little about the job they are applying for.

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MachCrit@reddit

If you spend the last 1000 hrs doing VFR pattern work, you’re doing it wrong.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

Friend had probably 400hrs in a champ taking old women on sight seeing trips around a lake. I said those hours will be soooo useful when Delta brings back the DC3.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Also this. Says something about the CFI if that’s all they’re doing but to each their own, what do I know!

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sprulz@reddit

While that may be true, teaching someone how to fly from zero hours does count for something. No, it isn't equal to the guy flying 135 into Class B airports day in and day out but you do pick up valuable soft skills that airlines clearly value.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

The difference being they are actually working professionals.

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theoriginalturk@reddit

Never said they weren’t, only pointing out that they share nearly the same experience as the people they’re disparaging

There are plenty of ways to develop a good foundation of experience with a variety of flying: cfi is only a percentage of that pie, not the end all be all gate to 121 that most CFIs seem to think it is

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Joe_Littles@reddit

This discussion isn’t about CFI vs 135 etc, rather CFI vs the lazy folks that don’t want to get their CFI so they pay to fly til 1500, as was the point of OP’s post. lol

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Distinct-Pen-4727@reddit

Pretty sure not everyone who doesn't CFI is “Lazy”. I'm in the military and would like a job in aviation when I retire and the only way for me to get hours is to buy my own airplane that way I can at least fly when I can and still have a little time for my family. But hey we are all just lazy.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

I was in the military and instructed during my last 6 months.

Most of the people wanting to dodge CFI are absolutely lazy.

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sprulz@reddit

Some are also straight up terrified of taking the potential bust on a checkride whose difficulty is somewhat overblown in my opinion.

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Distinct-Pen-4727@reddit

There's a difference between the last six months of your career when no one really is expecting much out of you anyway and last 10 years. But for me yeah I'd rather not neglect my family and at least have a little bit of time to spend with them.

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Rush_1_1@reddit

Idk I feel like my CFI and others at the school are usually busting their asses, flying like crazy and teaching/hammering the hell out of mostly proper fundamentals, which in any sector is a massive buff.

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Veritech-1@reddit

Ehhhh, when I was a CFI I learned a very valuable lesson at someone else’s expense. And it was to stay in the books. Something that most CFIs are forced to do by the nature of their day to day work.

Had a student pursuing commercial. Private pilot, instrument rated, 500-600 hours territory. Owned his own plane. Probably 300-400 hours of cross country to a broad range of airports.

We went up and did commercial maneuvers until he was proficient. He was a pretty good stick, so it didn’t take long. We did a mock oral. Pretty weak. But we cleaned him up. I asked him about cross country planning and asked if he wanted to do one together. Nope, wanted to save money. No problem on my end, he has tons of hours and I’ve flown a cross country with him before.

He busted the checkride on the cross country portion when he couldn’t find his first visual waypoint (examiner didn’t let him use ForeFlight). In an attempt to remedy the problem, he tuned a VOR further down his route of flight, unfortunately it was 120 miles away and he couldn’t pick it up, in the confusion of why he couldn’t pick it up, he selected a heading that wouldn’t intercept the course he wanted and found himself totally lost while navigating away from his flight planned route.

Point is, not all time is equal. Employers know that a CFI won’t stay employed if he doesn’t stay proficient. A time builder/owner should stay in the books and be proficient, but they might not.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

it's also mostly about the soft skills, not about the airplane skills. sure, ppl students don't teach you too much more about the airplane, but learning how to teach and how to interact with another human being in the flight deck is valuable. I'm sure the airline would prefer if you've got a decent variety of teaching experience and not just primary students, too

but I'm not a cfi so what would I know lol

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Bandolero101@reddit

you can definitely tell the difference in Captains that were instructors vs were not

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Definitely, flew with a LCP that was never a CFI. It was pretty obvious.

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swakid8@reddit

Joe, I was one of those folks who upvoted you to counter the downvotes….

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Joe_Littles@reddit

Your service is appreciated, swakid8 🫡

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swakid8@reddit

It’s all good, we’ve had our share of agreements and disagreements…. That’s the nature of CRM, a important skill set that CFIs can learn with their interactions with students.

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Joe_Littles@reddit

😅

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JeffreyDollarz@reddit

But what if you pay out of pocket to fly nothing but aerobatic for 1000hrs? What's that look like to the recruiters?

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ltcterry@reddit

Sounds more like good advice than a rant.

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ninetaildog@reddit

So what's the best way to go from zero to hero while having a job?

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n365pa@reddit

CFI, Banner towing, gliders

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PLIKITYPLAK@reddit

Part time CFI

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flying_penguin104@reddit

Which regional is giving priority to 135 guys over cadets??

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

What does being a cadet even mean? You join a free program lol

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Sad_Fruit_2348@reddit

What does time building mean? Like splitting costs?

Or just flying for fun?

Is my plans to go on trips with the wife actually going to hurt my future prospects?

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lnxguy@reddit

Having a commercial cert doesn't mean much to an employer if you don't use it.

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Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit

Name the regional.

Not that they need shaming. But people in the pipeline must understand how different the landscape is now. AND to hopefully reduce the “why am I not getting a job?!?” Posts

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172sierrapapa@reddit

Tough to say but I'd guess either Skywest or Republic since they're running the most classes currently. Honestly I'd be shocked if there were any regionals not using a tiered system like this, especially since they can be more picky now with what applicants get hired from the pool.

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12kVStr8tothenips@reddit

Says they need RATP/ATP, I’m guessing it’s Envoy? SkyWest and republic don’t have those requirements.

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172sierrapapa@reddit

Good point

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Ok_Anybody8281@reddit

My money is Envoy and they meant ATP/CTP. Neither SkyWest or Republic requires an ATP

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Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Sounds like republic

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theoriginalturk@reddit

Source on only a few Regionals hiring?

Pretty much every single regional still has applications windows open, and are giving CJOs and running classes

They’re just not happening at the size they and speed they were a few years ago. They’re fat on inexperienced people and their captain problem gets better each month

With the amount of new pilots being churned out, live got several thousand applicants for a few hundred positions, they can and are being more selective with the individuals they accept

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0621Hertz@reddit

Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted when your first sentence is 100% true, except Mesa for obvious reasons. I don’t know why I see a lot of “there are few regionals hiring.”

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theoriginalturk@reddit

It’s because earlier in the thread I pointed out how CFIs aren’t monolithic aviation gods and hurt a bunch of current and post-cfis egos.

I even agree that CFi is value add up to a point. Just like flying complex high performance aircraft pt91 can be value add

I don’t understand what people get by posting a bunch of misleading comments on these anonymous threads but I’ll always try and add a bit of nuance when I can

Even if it’s not popular

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FlyingZ47@reddit

I did CFI for a year and then switched to aerial survey. My last survey gig handled everything very similar to 135 and 121 operations even while flying Cessna 206s. Mandatory two pilot crew, flows and callouts, QRH, company MEL, cross country flights had to be flown IFR, week on/week off schedule, dedicated and thorough company training program, and much more. IMO that aerial survey gig was the best way to prepare anyone for a future flying crewed jets while still flying a piston. Certainly better than CFI.

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anactualspacecadet@reddit

If you can pay for all your hours up to 1500 you’re probably rich enough that getting another 1000 is no big deal for you so i doubt it honestly matters.

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tempskawt@reddit

Gee I wonder why they don't just say that instead of pushing it through the rumor mill

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FoxtrotWhiskey05@reddit

I guess I better cancel my mini max purchase

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VxAngleOfClimb@reddit

I’ve had a few applicants over the last few years who bought their own airplanes or just money bombed rentals. They logged almost no IFR time and were weak in the technical portions of the interview.

I’d much rather see someone who has been working as a flight instructor grinding for a paycheck, making decisions to not flight even though it hurts their income, and working with various personalities in a cockpit over someone who basically joyrode for 1,500 hours.

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gamefreak32@reddit

I’m Im sure there are still exceptions on that, but yes it isn’t a bad policy. Sure I wouldn’t hire the <25 year old who has 1500hrs and that has no other flying or professional job experience.

What about the 35 year old currently employed as an Engineer with a CFII/CMEL and only 300 dual given? I would hope that recruiters would not group them in with the time builders.

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whiskeypapa72@reddit

Admirable as engineering may be, it has minimal bearing on how well a pilot will perform in training or on the line. I’d anticipate most airlines would prefer a 1500-hour CFI to an engineer with only 300 hours dual given who bought the rest of the 1500.

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ltcterry@reddit

But I can do 750 fake IFR in an LSA, log 1500, and get there faster. FOMO. /s

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Wanttobefreewc@reddit

You can, but will you make it through training to the line? My regional had a bunch of washouts all at once and changed policies.

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parking7@reddit

Curious how your company would categorize 135 VFR only experience, probably at the CFI tier or would 135 experience overshadow less IFR experience?

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Mr-Plop@reddit

but! but my CFI coworkers are waiting for the 1500 to get hired!

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GeorgiaPilot172@reddit

Just lie and make up the time in your logbook

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Th3OriginalG@reddit

Chill, some newbs out there will think you’re serious lol

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GeorgiaPilot172@reddit

Seems they already did lmao

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0621Hertz@reddit

I don’t think any regional has said on record they require a full ATP. Only Envoy has said they require CTP.

Also the only regional officially not hiring/conducting classes is Mesa.

Also way to throw Ariel survey guys under the bus, in the same category as time builders and banner towers. A lot have 500+ hours of multi, night, and CCX time.

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Big_Assignment5949@reddit

No mil guys applying to you?

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NationalReading3921@reddit

You require a ATP/RATP or you require the written?

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Regional Airline Pilot Here 👋

My company is one of the only few regionals hiring currently, but we were told by recruiters that our Airline is no longer hiring 1500 hour pilots who have built their time out of pocket. Why?

Professional Experience is preferred. It’s a competitive market. More ratings and experience = higher chance of passing training

My company has a tier list of who gets in

Former 121/135 Guy
Cadets who went through the company’s partnered schools/Cadet Programs
CFI’s

That is the structure of how CJO’s/Class dates are assigned. Aerial Survey/Banner Tower/and Time Builders are put in the same category and are told not to expect an estimate for a class date anytime soon.

We have 4,000 Applications on file. We require Full RATP/ATP

There’s not a good answer now, but spend the money getting more ratings and experience if you are able.

note: This is specific to my airline. Others can definitely vary.

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