[-]

Synapse84@reddit

This is great news, and it's quite sad it's getting downvoted simply for mentioning Lunduke and because the project states they won't discriminate against people.

Xorg development has come to a crawl and to see it get development done is fantastic.

While, I think wayland is what we'll all be using in 5+ years, it's unfortunately not there yet imo. Every single time I use wayland I find issues with it and go back to xorg.

[-]

ABotelho23@reddit

Wayland is here, not in 5 years. It's being actively removed from distributions at this point.

What this person is seeking to do would break X11 compatibility in such a way that would require development work from GPU driver developers to remain compatible; that's just not gonna happen at this point.

He doesn't just have horrendous political views, he is incapable of interacting with a FOSS project in a healthy manner. This fork is a tantrum.

[-]

thedeadfish@reddit

Wayland is trash forced on everyone without any choice. Wayland devs who also control Xorg, refused to allow any further development of X so they could push Wayland.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

Wayland isn't here yet until I can shade a window.

[-]

Synapse84@reddit

Everytime I've used wayland I've experienced issues, whether that be crashes, problems with my monitors, unreliable global hotkeys, blurry text, etc. Those are deal breakers for me. So no, for me it's not "here" yet. I want it to be, but I also prefer using what's battle tested and works.

I don't know anything about the maintainer, but If his fork can push for changes because internal politics in xorg was halting development then i'm all for supporting this fork.

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

I think a lot of downvotes are also simply because the project wants to keep X11 alive, and would have downvoted it even if it came from a less controversial person.

The issue people are having with the "won't discriminate against people" part is that the maintainer's political track record makes it sound less like "won't discriminate against minorities" (even though he lists examples going in that direction) and more like "won't discriminate against fascists".

It would be sad to see the effort to keep X11 alive fail just because of far-rightwing politics ruining everything as usual.

[-]

Synapse84@reddit

Take a look at the top comments in this thread. I highly doubt "a lot of downvotes" are anything more than a bunch of terminally online idiots downvoting simply because Lunduke was mentioned. It's sad and pathetic.

I don't know the maintainer's "political track record", nor do i care. I simply want software to be software. People immediately associating a project that explicitly states it doesn't discriminate as being far right and in-favor of fascists is idiotic.

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

The README explicitly states that the project is "against DEI" and that the maintainer considers "DEI" as "discrimination". That is a very trumpist statement.

[-]

Synapse84@reddit

DEI IS discrimination.... It's been used as a tool to fill quotas and not hire people based on skin color.. ie... discrimination...

[-]

elijuicyjones@reddit

He’s saying he will definitely discriminate, because he resents the people in the world who genuinely insist on ending discrimination, and his project is the opposite of that.

He’s prerending he’s a victim, but anyone with three brain cells can see through that.

[-]

Synapse84@reddit

He's going to discriminate because he hates that he was discriminated by the same people that say they don't discriminate?

Do any of you even hear yourselves?

"I want you to hate the same people that I hate! If you don't then you're a fascist nazi right wing grifter". Fuckin hell this site has lost the plot.

[-]

elijuicyjones@reddit

Wrong. You don’t tolerate the intolerant. That’s how it works. It’s not complicated but fools try to make to so because they want to be assholes.

[-]

Synapse84@reddit

I dunno, I feel being actively opposed to discrimination and open to everyone is rather tolerant.. But hey, because he's not a far left extremist he must be an intolerant asshole?

[-]

metux-its@reddit

Who blocked you ?

[-]

elijuicyjones@reddit

This nonsense is what happens when we fail to educate people.

[-]

MoussaAdam@reddit

"I am more educated than you, you see"

[-]

metux-its@reddit

Aha. The post has been censored.

[-]

SchellingPointer@reddit (OP)

The post got mass reported and will need to be manually approved by the mods. Whatever happened to "Don't shoot the messenger"?

Good luck with Xlibre!

[-]

ravensholt@reddit

"Libre EVERYTHING!!!"

LOL.

Not all corporations are evil.

This smells, nay, reeks of propaganda.

The guy was probably impossible to "co-operate" with.

PS. Wayland is the future.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

Wayland might be the future as soon as my software starts working on it. As of now it's just a mess that can't even shade a window.

[-]

ravensholt@reddit

Maybe that's a problem with your software then.

I'm using Wayland with Zorin, got no issues what so ever.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

Can you shade windows?

[-]

lefl28@reddit

The guy was probably impossible to "co-operate" with.

Not just probably:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957

[-]

n3onfx@reddit

If you needed any more proof that Torvalds is based.

[-]

Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

Linus can be wildly violent at times, but he is always based. He is still one of the most arrogant person I know, but he kinda earned the right to be imo.

[-]

metux-its@reddit

What does the scientific literature tell about this today ?

[-]

Fragrant-Equal-8474@reddit

Reverse transcriptase silently ignored ;).

[-]

SilkwormSidleRemand@reddit

Even accepting Mr. Weigelt's implicit claim about reverse transcriptase, his claim that humans whose bodies produce a single novel protein would "basically" be a "new humanoid race" is cooked.

[-]

Fragrant-Equal-8474@reddit

Of course.

And I generally think that LKML is not a place for such discussions.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

Reverse transcriptase silently ignored ;).

Make an actual claim about mRNA instead of some sort of innuendo linked to a QAnon conspiracy theory.

[-]

Fragrant-Equal-8474@reddit

Make an actual claim about mRNA instead of some sort of innuendo linked to a QAnon conspiracy theory.

No, I'm not qualified enough to make such a claim, I'm not that good in cellular biology.

But reverse transcriptase exists, and RNA viruses (retroviruses) like HIV (not just HIV) exist, being made mostly of RNA.

This doesn't mean that mrna vaccines (or COVID vaccine specifically) are harmful, just that the claim that "mrna has half-life of 2 hours and thus harmless" requires more explanation.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

But reverse transcriptase exists, and RNA viruses (retroviruses) like HIV (not just HIV) exist, being made mostly of RNA.

So what? You say that like it proves something. You assert that Linus needs to say something about reverse transcriptase. I disagree. And I think if you knew more about RNA, mRNA and reverse transcriptase you would actually realize that he doesn't need to say more. Read the two articles I linked.

I'm critical of you, because some anti-vaccine conspiracy theory asserted that the COVID vaccine could become genotoxic (cause the RNA in the vaccine to be incorporated into your body on some ongoing/permanent basis). You say "reverse transcriptase" without understanding the biological basics and proclaim that it needs to be discussed. It doesn't.

That's why you shouldn't make some vague innuendo, if you don't know enough to make an argument.

[-]

Rollexgamer@reddit

Not qualified enough

But somehow also qualified enough to call BS on 99% of medical experts?

The mRNA half life claim requires more explanation.

No it doesn't, because there is no evidence that the mRNA vaccines cause that, which is a very specific property that is not observed with most molecules. It would be like saying that store labels with "this meal expires in 5 days" would "require more explanation" because you can encase it in resin and freeze it to near-absolute zero to make it last longer

[-]

Fragrant-Equal-8474@reddit

>But somehow also qualified enough to call BS on 99% of medical experts?

I never did that. Linus Torvalds is not a medical expert by any stretch.

>It would be like saying that store labels with "this meal expires in 5 days" would "require more explanation" because you can encase it in resin and freeze it to near-absolute zero to make it last longer

Well, companies who sell food actually do that. They have to prove safety of their products to the FDA and similar organisations in other countries.

And even if mRNA vaccines _could_ re-integrate themselves into the DNA, it would not mean that much, because human DNA mutates every day, and viruses infect people and embed themselves into the DNA all the time as well.

The issue is really not the technology itself, but a disregard for people's valid concern.

[-]

Rollexgamer@reddit

Well, companies who sell food actually do that. They have to prove safety of their products to the FDA and similar organisations in other countries.

Believe it or not, I was already aware of the FDA and its purpose. So, the relationship between that and what you replied to is...?

The issue is really not the technology itself, but a disregard for people's valid concern

It's valid to be concerned about new developments, but what's not valid is to repeat unrelated medical terms that you admittedly have no actual understanding of what it means, because you've heard social media, mostly people outside the medical field, parrot it around as a way to "spread awareness" of "potential dangers".

I.e:

"Hey, what are the possible dangers associated with this technology, and what was the research done to address them?" <-- perfectly valid and reasonable concern
"I heard online that the vaccines have flux capacitor dissonance (or any other term that you have just heard about online without any actual understanding) that can alter children's genes and turn them into mutants!" <-- irrational, invalid concern

[-]

Fragrant-Equal-8474@reddit

>So, the relationship between that and what you replied to is...?

The relationship is that your phrase about "expires in 5 days", which you used, presumably, sarcastically, actually requires justification.

> have no actual understanding of what it means, because you've heard social media,

>I heard online

"reverse transcriptase" and "mRNA" are not "random things heard on social media", it's what everyone is taught about in high school (well, at least in the country where I grew up).

[-]

Rollexgamer@reddit

The relationship is that your phrase about "expires in 5 days", which you used, presumably, sarcastically, actually requires justification.

Never in my entire comment did I imply that they did not require justification. If you read my comment again and the context of it, you can probably realize that the example was to make the point of: the label doesn't need to mention extraordinary cases such as "what if this extremely improbable and unconventional thing happens, changing the expected outcome?", it just needs to explain the general case.

If you still don't understand the intention behind that example, it was to show the point that: Linus' mRNA half life claim is not misleading, as it is completely factually accurate, and there is no need to mention stuff that is completely unrelated to the topic at hand (since, again, and this can't be repeated enough times, there is no evidence suggesting the mRNA inside vaccines contain reverse transcriptase)

[-]

MetaTrombonist@reddit

And I thought I couldn't love Linus even more.

[-]

ravensholt@reddit

Thank you!

That was entertaining to read.

[-]

abermea@reddit

The Code of Conduct is literally just a 404

Yeah this is going to be a mess, even if the code itself works fine

[-]

LvS@reddit

One of the 3000 commits.

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

The reason there are 3000 commits is that the maintainer decided to unexport a lot of private APIs and made a separate commit for every single removed _X_EXPORT, i.e., for every single unexported function or variable.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

So >2000 functions got unexported? Did something break? Or is it now easier to maintain?

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

No idea, ask the maintainer.

I am personally more of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset (for all software, not just for legacy software like X11) and would not have made these changes.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

People rather complain that we need wayland because X11 needs to be patched. IDK if that guy's way is in the right direction but "don't fix it" is definitly not the right direction here.

[-]

GameEnjoyer@reddit

That's great!

[-]

Unlucky-Ad-2993@reddit

/s. There, you forgot it

[-]

AiwendilH@reddit

And ENOENT

I have a question about that...that commit is 2 month old. How old is this fork? Did the developer just have those two files in their local copy while working on xorg and they got published now? That's...a bit of a weird thing to do and not very reassuring. Or is this fork already public for months and only now reported?

[-]

undeleted_username@reddit

And this is how OSS is supposed to work, my best wishes on his endeavor. Why all the drama?

[-]

felipec@reddit

Because Wayland advocates want Xorg to die.

[-]

undeleted_username@reddit

And, again, that is how OSS is supposed to work.

If Xorg developers have decided to abandon it, you cannot force them to continue working on the project. You can move with them to Wayland, or you can fork Xorg and continue the work yourself.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

No. Just because they decided to abandon it they aren't entitled to block others from forking it. That's what corporate software would be.

In Open Source, there can be a libre office and a libre X11. Let's see if he manages to pull it off.

[-]

undeleted_username@reddit

And who is blocking who from forking what, here?

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

I misread you because the previous poster said "Wayland advocates want Xorg to die." and you continued "And, again, that is how OSS is supposed to work."

Yes, it should be forked. Let that guy try it.

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

or you can fork Xorg and continue the work yourself.

Yet, everyone is now complaining about someone doing exactly that.

[-]

nilsph@reddit

Actually, we're popping the corn over this guy going out of his way to prove he has no business maintaining a decades old complicated codebase without screwing up compatibility (or what else is the point in X11) and pissing almost everybody off who could help him achieve his objective. That he has to bring his crappy political views into it is just the icing on the cake.

[-]

felipec@reddit

No. Projects are supposed to die organically, not because of outside pressure.

Wayland advocates want to kill Xorg despite plenty of developers (myself included) who want to keep improving it.

[-]

kinda_guilty@reddit

Wayland advocates want to kill Xorg despite plenty of developers (myself included) who want to keep improving it.

This fork is a brilliant opportunity then. New project, even willing to do breaking changes. We will be watching with great interest.

[-]

felipec@reddit

It seems plenty of people are watching hoping it crashes and burns.

[-]

-o0__0o-@reddit

Wayland developers and Xorg developers are exactly the same. They've already abandoned Xorg.

[-]

felipec@reddit

Is Enrico Weigelt a Wayland developer?

[-]

tapo@reddit

He's not even an X developer, he had a few commits that weren't accepted because he was just moving files around or hacking at things. I don't think he's shipped anything either.

If this came with a release that actually implemented some killer new feature then maybe he'd have a leg to stand on.

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

If the complaints are that X11 is unmainainable and if he does a code clean-up, blocking the clean-up will ensure that there is no new killer feature.

[-]

felipec@reddit

He's not even an X developer

65% of Xorg commits last year came from him and he is not a developer?

Mmmkay.

[-]

tapo@reddit

And they are extremely small commits, go dig at a few of them.

[-]

felipec@reddit

And they are extremely small commits

That's how good commits are supposed to be.

[-]

tapo@reddit

No, they're not. Take a look at this example: https://imgur.com/a/0JjHFP8

These are all https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/1639 a single MR. This should be _squashed_ as a single commit under the MR to avoid polluting the repo commit history.

[-]

felipec@reddit

No, they're not.

I'm a git developer, you are not going to tell me what a good git commit is.

[-]

tapo@reddit

I'm an engineering manager and I've been running enterprise GitLab Ultimate for 7 years. Polluting the git history makes it extremely difficult to figure out what is going on and to create meaningful commits and rollbacks.

https://docs.gitlab.com/user/project/merge_requests/squash_and_merge/

To get back to your point though, you're claiming the man has 65% of all commits when the other developers are squashing their commits. Show me what features the dude has shipped, better yet, see if he can ship this new fork of X and deliver anything meaninfgul. Since he doesn't even have a release yet, color me extremely skeptical.

[-]

felipec@reddit

I'm an engineering manager and I've been running enterprise GitLab Ultimate for 7 years.

So? You are still wrong. Making atomic commits is considered a best practice. Period.

https://docs.gitlab.com/user/project/merge_requests/squash_and_merge/

There's a reason git developers don't use GitLab and Linus Torvalds called GitHub's pull request interface garbage.

you're claiming the man has 65% of all commits

No, I am claiming he is a developer of the project. You can trash his contributions all you want, he is still a developer.

[-]

ngoonee@reddit

Exactly what has he developed though? Is there a release?

[-]

metux-its@reddit

Release coming in few days. Including eg new security extension. Subscribe xlibre maillist and stay tuned.

[-]

littleblack11111@reddit

Sure atomic commits are best practices. But all those commits is for the same goal, thus should be in the same commit

You wouldn’t change the function definition in the header, commit it, then change the definition in the source file would you?

[-]

felipec@reddit

You cannot bisect a squashed commit.

[-]

littleblack11111@reddit

What? Better then bisecting then failing to compile?

[-]

metux-its@reddit

"a few" ... top committer within the last decade.

[-]

metux-its@reddit

There are more non-wayland X11 developers than myself.

[-]

metux-its@reddit

Thanks

[-]

TsortsAleksatr@reddit

>Lunduke

that alt-right grifter who tries to turn every open source news into some culture war shit?

[-]

Zettinator@reddit

Yeah it's even described as a "non-DEI" fork. what the actual fuck.

[-]

Jealous_Response_492@reddit

Well that's just silly and incompatible with a key points of the open-source definition.

No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups

The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.

No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor

The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.

-- https://opensource.org/osd

[-]

KrazyKirby99999@reddit

This is an independent project, not at all affiliated with BigTech or any of their subsidiaries or tax evasion tools, nor any political activists groups, state actors, etc. It's explicitly free of any "DEI" or similar discriminatory policies. Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed.

It seems the developer agrees with the OSD

[-]

KittensInc@reddit

Rather the opposite, because "No DEI or similar discriminatory policies" means "we're not going to stop anyone from bullying minorities", which in practice means those minorities aren't welcome. Which is discrimination.

The whole "Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed" just means you've got to conclude your bullying with an "It's just a joke bro, don't be so serious!". It never means you genuinely have to be nice - otherwise they wouldn't have a problem with those "DEI" policies.

[-]

Jealous_Response_492@reddit

If someone is willing and able to maintain & improve X11, I'm not gonna discourage them. X11 is rooted in an archaic notion of computing which has it's use cases. Today IRL X11 doesn't fit most Linux display configs, but does fit some obscure niche cases. I get why RedHat doesn't wanna expend resources on maintaining it, it's largely obsolete. So IF this individual can maintain and improve this legacy piece of computing heritage, fair play.

[-]

KrazyKirby99999@reddit

I agree completely. Wayland has made Linux a viable platform and Xorg's primary value is for legacy software.

However there is no contradiction between the developer's anti-DEI stance and the OSD.

[-]

Jealous_Response_492@reddit

Ouais! X is cool, but overkill in design/complexity and sheer lack of documentation & maintainability for how Linux is actually deployed. As for the DEI nonsense, no idea what OP's issues are, but software is agnostic to such notions.

[-]

-o0__0o-@reddit

It's perfectly fine to discriminate against people who discriminate.

[-]

Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

Yeah. If they do. DEI does not. Magam0ron incels do.

[-]

georgehank2nd@reddit

The OSD is all and only about the license.

[-]

SquareSir2997@reddit

I don't understand, who's he discriminating against?

[-]

-o0__0o-@reddit

Who gives a fuck about open source? We care about free software.

[-]

Jealous_Response_492@reddit

The Free Software Foundation motto;

“The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all software users.”

-- https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

[-]

Zettinator@reddit

They're very much related. The free software definition is basically a superset of the OSI definition w.r.t user and usage freedoms.

[-]

syldrakitty69@reddit

The X.Org Foundation signed the "Cancel Stalman" petition -- and also overlaps 1:1 with the people involved with the Hyprland drama -- so its not a totally outrageous assessment.

[-]

Oncletomdavid@reddit

A what now?

[-]

UntouchedWagons@reddit

DEI is a dog whistle for minorities.

[-]

Oncletomdavid@reddit

Well aware

[-]

computer-machine@reddit

I guess Enrico Weigelt is a white male that turned down his advances?

[-]

aliendude5300@reddit

This guy has a tendency to make everything political these days.

[-]

SchellingPointer@reddit (OP)

“It doesn't matter which country you're coming from, your political views, your race, your sex, your age, your food menu, whether you wear boots or heels, whether you're furry or fairy, Conan or McKay, comic character, a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri, or just an boring average person. Anybody's welcome, who's interested in bringing X forward.”

[-]

crtcalculator@reddit

I agree with some of his views at a surface level but he makes everything a political issue and it's so tiresome. It's either a nonexistent issue, blown out of proportion, or a genuine issue that loses credibility being covered by the likes of him. He does nobody a service.

[-]

IntrepidEquivalent53@reddit

Fuck off, jihadist

[-]

Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

Same one and only.

[-]

mrdaltro@reddit

Unfortunately I checked and this non-sense is really in the "xlibre" readme in the github repo.

[-]

LordDeath86@reddit

Back then, he saw someone from the Linux Foundation (the CEO?) holding a talk with a MacBook in front of them, and he called for their resignation. I understood back then that this somewhat entertaining podcaster was really in a perpetual search for drama, so I noped out of his content.
Now, years later, he resurfaces back as a right-wing MAGA nutjob, and I am not surprised at all. It feels like the logical conclusion of being a perpetual douche.

[-]

LordAnchemis@reddit

Ie. flogging a dead horse

[-]

SeriousPlankton2000@reddit

While the new horse will be ready to do the work any time soon, just wait a few decades …

Wayland is a fowl that was hyped because it's not as heavy as the uncle. When it's ready to replace X11, it will be just as heavy.

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

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[-]

Zettinator@reddit

"Corporate interests" makes it sound like there is an evil plan of some sort... but everyone simply agrees that Wayland is the future and developer resources are simply put into improving Wayland rather than maintaining XOrg. There is nothing wrong with that!

[-]

mrlinkwii@reddit

ut almost everyone simply agrees that Wayland is the future and developer resources are put into improving Wayland rather than maintaining XOrg.

id diagree to this a bit , while wayland is the future , x11 is still needed to be maintained , since wayland isnt 100%

[-]

josefx@reddit

Wayland is reaching the age X had when it came out. A lot of corporate software is moving towards cloud computing with dumb clients used for display again. I would say we are once again nearing a time when we need a new display protocol that reflects modern day software usage instead of the dated local execution model Wayland was build on top of.

[-]

KittensInc@reddit

a new display protocol that reflects modern day software usage

We do have one! It's called a "website".

[-]

orev@reddit

nearing a time when we need a new display protocol

We're already in that time. The protocol is HTTP, HTML, and JavaScript (maybe WASM if it lives up to its promises).

[-]

mrlinkwii@reddit

you joke , because that has been something that was said to me

[-]

LisiasT@reddit

I don't have display adapters in half my servers, while the servers that have one they still have a crappy ATI one with 16 megabytes for VRAM.

Most of the time I'm on text console via SSH, so this is not a problem.

But now and then I need to run some diagnosing tool that it's way more convenient on a GUI. Being able to fire remotely a program that will be displayed on my local machine using my local GPU makes way more sense than shoving a crappy GPUm taking up a PCIX slot on every server I have, and then having to deal with a chunkcy VNC session where half the screen is blurred or chopped.

[-]

580083351@reddit

Make VNC great again!

[-]

ethertype@reddit

Nothing is ever 100% to 100% of the population.

Wayland is 100% to me, and it has already been for quite some time. So Wayland to me is simultaneously past, present and future. X11 is very much in the past, and energy is much better spent on whatever Wayland happens to be missing.

[-]

_ahrs@reddit

It seems he is disagreeing with that and he has the code to show for it. Good luck to him. I'm quite happy with Plasma Wayland myself but if he wants to maintain Xorg himself then so be it. At least he's doing something unlike the many Wayland complainers that offer up nothing.

[-]

Zettinator@reddit

Sure, it's fine to fork Xorg. But this is not a story about evil RedHat overlords trying to put down an independent developer, or DEI or whatever else.

The guy probably wasn't banned for "no reason" either, likely he was insufferable in one way or another. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but after all it is an organisation that decided to ban him, not a single person.

[-]

aliendude5300@reddit

I suspect you're right. I would love to see a statement from the Freedesktop project on why this guy was banned.

[-]

Kevin_Kofler@reddit

Almost certainly Code of Conduct violation(s).

[-]

grahamperrin@reddit

… I would love to see a statement from the Freedesktop project …

I should not expect one.

Some of what's already written is fairly self-explanatory.

[-]

BallingAndDrinking@reddit

likely he was insufferable in one way or another.

Going over the closed MR he had, it can definitely just be his behavior. The guy opened up so many of those he actually managed to open several of them several times. He's told to fix his code, doesn't then wonder why his MR isn't merged. And so on.

[-]

ThomasterXXL@reddit

I mean, he's wasting his own time, too...

[-]

metux-its@reddit

These MRs were all closed by Redhat when the news came out. And they also immediately my repos and my account. Also deleted a ticket listing more than a hundred easy MRs waiting for review, where Redhat people personally attacked me.

[-]

metux-its@reddit

Then why did Redat immediately ban me from freedesktop.org and delete all my work (not just Xorg related) the moment this became public ?

[-]

_ahrs@reddit

I agree but he's certainly going to spin it that way because you have to admit it sounds a lot better than "Man forks dead project". I can't see any Linux distros picking this up nor would I agree with Lunduke's assessment that Xorg now has a future again (it will need some serious work done to it for that to happen) but that's the story they're trying to sell.

[-]

aliendude5300@reddit

I can't even see BSD or Illumos distros picking this up

[-]

580083351@reddit

Will be interesting to see what OpenBSD does, since Xenocara follows X11.

[-]

grahamperrin@reddit

Will be interesting to see what OpenBSD does,

https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/1l4uayb/xorg_is_being_forked_by_the_most_active_xorg/ was removed and then locked by moderators.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/1l4ubye/xorg_is_being_forked_by_the_most_active_xorg/ remains open, with crowd control enabled.

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ABotelho23@reddit

He's the anti-vaxxer that Torvalds stomped during COVID in the mailing list.

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Kevin_Kofler@reddit

Unfortunately, Enrico Weigelt has way more questionable political views than just the one on vaccines.

Don't take me wrong, I believe a fork to keep X11 alive is absolutely needed. But I do have reservations about the person behind it due to his political views (which are very far from mine).

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froschdings@reddit

yup, he didn't take covid very well and I think he went out of business sometimes in the last couple of years

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arvidep@reddit

had to look it up, its true :( https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957

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try4gain_@reddit

The guy probably wasn't banned for "no reason" either, likely he was insufferable in one way or another.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes

"it was real in my mind"

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MouseJiggler@reddit

Likely-schmikely. Speculation isn't fact.

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Zettinator@reddit

Looking at some of the discussion on freedesktop and judging from some of the stuff posted here, it definitely points in that direction.

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fake_agent_smith@reddit

Dude gonna end up like TempleOS guy.

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3G6A5W338E@reddit

Yet someone got to maintain Xorg for those that still use it, and Xorg seems to refuse to do so.

Thus the fork.

While I have been on wayland for a while, I am happy to know someone still cares about X11 and that its code won't be just left to rot.

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metux-its@reddit

If that's so, then way did Redhat completely ban and delete all Xlibre work (git repos, tickets, hundreds of open mergen requests, ...) at the moment that news came out ?

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lproven@reddit

They really don't, you know. I know that a lot of younger hackers don't really get X or see the point, but Wayland doesn't stop a lot of things that older more experienced people want or need.

The story that "Wayland is the future" is not the case. There's more to the UNIX world than Linux, and there's more to xNix desktops than GNOME and KDE or a few tiling WMs.

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Soft-Clue-2747@reddit

I mean X is basically dead when it comes to development, and there are very few devs willing to maintain it at this point. For all intents and purposes it's a project on life support.

In the Linux world saying "Wayland is the future" is accurate. Most of the major distros have adopted it, most DEs support it, and are working on supporting it better. It's only a matter of time at this point.

Sure Wayland has a few things missing from X, but most of those things are being worked on and will be implemented.

Not saying that X is bad by any means but, it would be innacurate to say that Wayland is not the future of Linux considering every single major distro and DE is working on supporting it if it doesn't already.

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Zettinator@reddit

Yeah, a LOT went wrong with Wayland development, I think the biggest problem being unclear scope and focusing on the spec too much. It is (to some degree) a good thing to only have one (or a few) display server implementations. Wayland for the first years never really had a practically usable reference implementation (no, Weston isn't that - it's a toy).

Nowadays, things are coming together and Wayland is now working well (several capable display server implementations exist) and in many ways more capable than Xorg. So I really don't see why you'd stick to X unless you are an old Unix beard and never want things to change.

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Soft-Clue-2747@reddit

I honestly don't get why some people are so bent out of shape about Wayland. It is no longer the early days where it was unusable. Either use it or don't, burying your head in the sand and denying facts because you don't like something is ignorant.

In the grand scheme of things they can use whatever they want, Linux is modular, and they should use whatever they like/want to and just accept it when they're not the majority opinion. Often they seem to be big babies about other peoples' choices though.

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Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

That precisely is what the altright incel magam0rons are. Big fat crybaby snowflakes always throwing adult tantrums about how minorities are conspiring to replace them, when actually those very magaincels themselves are the one and only cause of their own perceived cancellation. Be it because of their incompetence, refusal of change, or plain simple insufferable attitude.

Go Altright. Fork dead projects, fight DEI like they were windmills. We during that time, will do actual work, freed from your constant whining.

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mortuary-dreams@reddit

I am not as resistant to change as some other folks are, but this is not how things work in real life.

Major distros are pushing Btrfs as the modern filesystem, but I'm not going to switch to it because it doesn't work for my needs, it creates problems that simply don't exist on Ext4.

Don't kid yourself that just because major distro X defaults to Wayland, it'll be the future. This is not how things work.

Some major distros also default to SELinux, and most folks disable it because it creates more problems than it solves.

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mortuary-dreams@reddit

As always, reddit will downvote everything that makes sense and is logical because the new woke way says you should go with everything that is new even if it doesn't work for your own needs.

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pezezin@reddit

There's more to the UNIX world than Linux

Are you sure? Other than the BSDs, pretty much every commercial UNIX that ever was is dead, dying, or irrelevant nowadays.

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Tropical_Amnesia@reddit

The number of downvotes predictably proves your point but you've probably realized as much if not expected. Wayland is good enough for the 95 %, we'll just have to accept that this time around the missing 5 is us. Not much to do about it, though if a statement as obvious and harmless as this (still) hurts people, then maybe that 5 is really more of a 10. In any case, this too is going to resolve itself, either once our hardware disappears, or we.

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ventus1b@reddit

But that doesn’t explain or justify the petty behavior regarding Enrico’s account and existing MRs.

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xte2@reddit

Well... Me personally I've tried Wayland and decide that's not really interesting...

What I'm interesting is:

a modern network feature over internet not LAN to replace crappy screen sharing softwares
an integrated design instead of many separate components where UIs could be natively DocUIs not widget-based stuff and config could be much more comfortable especially for keyboard customisation

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Correct-Commission@reddit

Exactly. Xorg people themselves seen that they can't just tinker it with extensions anymore, specially they just can't touch the core protocol. Wayland is a good answer or not is a different question but let's face it X11 only stayed somehow relevant because of all that extensions trying to hack in more modern systems into 80s core protocol. And yet, there's still things just can't happen in X11.

Years ago, I said only way to move on from X11 is X12. Maybe we should see wayland as X12 now.

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felipec@reddit

Yeah, "everyone" agrees with that, except for all the people that don't.

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aliendude5300@reddit

This is actually hilarious. Nobody is going to use this.

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kombiwombi@reddit

Given the whole "anti-DEI" basis I'm not even sure I can even legally contribute from my Australian workplace.

"Free software, except for women, the disabled, the poor, ..." Is quite a take.

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MoussaAdam@reddit

why are you pretending that contributions from the disabled and the poor wouldn't be accepted ?

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Unlucky-Ad-2993@reddit

I really hope he uses it, if and when it is stable enough to be used (probably never)

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Mr_Lumbergh@reddit

Wayland is the future, why cling to this? There are certain things that X still does better but that's rapidly-shrinking list.

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mrlinkwii@reddit

"Non-DEI Fork of Xorg"

yeah no

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NoTime_SwordIsEnough@reddit

The phrase "yeah no" is infinitely worse than calling something DEI, in my opinion.

DEI at Mozilla is what took the term "Master Password" away from us, and replaced it with "Primary Password".

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Rollexgamer@reddit

The phrase "yeah no" is infinitely worse than calling something DEI

...what? No seriously, what do you mean, that makes literally no sense.

Replacing "Master Password" with "Primary Password"

So what? Does changing one word to another affect you personally? I really don't care what name they use for "the big password in charge of all things" (probably because I touch grass), but I've seen way, and I mean way more people whine to no end about "why are they changing stuff, I dont like that, it's political propaganda!!!" than the other way around, and it's usually the same kind of people who have "peculiar" opinions about minorities and discrimination

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Kevin_Kofler@reddit

Does changing one word to another affect you personally?

One unfortunate side effect of those renames is that they replace a term that has become familiar to many users such as "master password" with a new unfamiliar term like "primary password" that is not as easily understood.

I understand why people find terms like "master" or "slave" offensive and want them removed, and I despise the MAGA people who insist on using them out of spite. But changing such terms is not without side effects either, unfortunately.

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NoTime_SwordIsEnough@reddit

"Primary" is 3 syllables, and "Secondary" is 4 syllables.

"Master" is 2 syllables, and "Slave" is 1 syllable.

It is a crime of lost productivity for coders to making people utter so many more syllables, whether it's in the Firefox user-interface, or petitions to rename "Master/Slave" terminology to "Primary/Secondary" throughout the Linux kernel.

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SilkwormSidleRemand@reddit

I agree those changes were peak shitlib superficiality, but still being upset about them five years later is far worse.

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Rollexgamer@reddit

Next time end your comments with /s if you're being sarcastic, tone can easily get lost in raw text messages. Because I really hope you are being sarcastic.

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Leliana403@reddit

The phrase "yeah no" is infinitely worse than calling something DEI, in my opinion.

When "DEI" is just a right wing dog whistle for "minorities", no, it fucking isn't.

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NoTime_SwordIsEnough@reddit

I think it's time to disengage from politics.

And say 'no' to useless busy-bodies trying to get into positions of power in projects like Mozilla, Debian and FreeBSD and trying to implement dumb policies.

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gmes78@reddit

You're just looking for things to be mad at.

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Leliana403@reddit

Oh, I see. You're one of them

Opinion discarded.

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nijahplays@reddit

Interesting! Would be interested to see where it goes, if anywhere.

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Silejonu@reddit

Source: Lunduke

OK, bye.

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IAmTheOneWhoClicks@reddit

New phone, who dis?

(I'm new to Linux, who's Lunduke?)

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SquareSir2997@reddit

A neo-Nazi grifter

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3G6A5W338E@reddit

(X) doubt.

Particularly, considering Lunduke is an actual Jew.

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TheSkeletonBones@reddit

Not mutually exclusive

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KrazyKirby99999@reddit

A right-wing tech journalist. GNOME, Red Hat, Mozilla, and most Linux journalists have a vendetta against him.

He's definitely not a Nazi, but he does stir up drama occasionally.

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Darkblade_e@reddit

Right wing conspiracy nutjob, same as the guy who actually forked x11 here.

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Silejonu@reddit

An idiot who sees conspiracies everywhere, and is trying his best to start drama about every little things Linux-related. What he claims is at best vastly blown out of proportions, at worst plain lies.

He used to be somewhat popular in the Linux/FOSS enthusiasts community (mostly on YouTube), but has since lost traction in the last few years due to the constant flow of disinformation he is spewing.

His idiotic takes are not confined to Linux/FOSS, and while I would usually argue that I don't care that much as what's important are his technical skills/takes, he is using his platform to spread his ridiculous opinions.

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ckafi@reddit

Right wing grifter. Total drama queen. He sees conspiracies in everything and is always the victim.

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snowthearcticfox1@reddit

A moron you are better off ignoring

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Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

I had the luck of not knowing this lund-whatever guy. Not anymore. How one person (and moreso all his followers) can be so full of shite, is beyond me.

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aliendude5300@reddit

The sad thing is, before Lunduke became political they actually produced a lot of insightful content I used to enjoy. Now everything he makes is about wokeness or DEI. It's ridiculous.

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Unlucky-Ad-2993@reddit

If this isn't enshittification, idk what is

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vessrebane@reddit

lmfao same
i was actually listening until i saw lunduke's name

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daemonpenguin@reddit

I like the idea of X11 having a maintainer, for legacy code if nothing else. But this project isn't going to work. The first point in the README file says:

  Module ABIs have changed - drivers MUST be recompiled against this Xserver verison, otherwise the Xserver can crash or not even start up correctly.

That kills it right out of the gate. If you're maintaining legacy code the first thing you need to do is not break existing compatibility.

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LvS@reddit

Apart from the nvidia driver, all drivers are maintained by Xorg itself. So I guess they can just be forked together.

The important API to maintain is not drivers, but the X11 API.

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Unlucky-Ad-2993@reddit

Maintaining a display server is one thing, but good luck maintaining multiple drivers

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metux-its@reddit

That had always been the case for major releases Nvidia does recompile for each ABI version. They just have a strange way for putting that all in to one binary. I wouldn't do it that way, but it's their choice

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josefx@reddit

The module ABI was never stable.

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Kevin_Kofler@reddit

Nonsense. Every new X11 version has broken the module ABI. The only reason the X11 module ABI has not changed for the last few years is that there has no longer been a major version for ages. Which is exactly what the maintainer of the fork is trying to fix.

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FlukyS@reddit

Yeah, like it is worse than a "bad sign" it is literally a warning sign on the whole effort

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ScratchHistorical507@reddit

Yet still nobody gives a flying f*** about the clinically insane moron...

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minus_minus@reddit

As Xorg is only concerning itself with Wayland, people should feel free to fork and build what they want (OpenSolaris, by another name, is still chugging along ffs), but screeching about corporate overlords and DEI might not be the community building needed to do so.

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ninelore@reddit

Aside from all the other Issues mentioned here:

We're talking about a 40yo protocol with design and security flaws. It's time to start to put it to rest.

Aside from big Desktops there's also a good selection of Compositors catering to all kinds of tastes of tiling window manager users these days.

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AI_Tonic@reddit

fascinating how red hat devs are such absolute cants to the open source community then turn up with small bags of cash at like every event

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NaheemSays@reddit

The guy seems mentally unwell.

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josefx@reddit

Is that a reason to discriminate against a contributor?

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hueheuheuheueh@reddit

Yes

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KrazyKirby99999@reddit

disability

That contradicts the freedesktop CoC

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Rollexgamer@reddit

Who mentioned disability? In case English is not your first language "being mentally unwell" does not translate into "having a disability"

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letmewriteyouup@reddit

tf are you reinventing the English language for yourself? Sounds like you are "mentally unwell" by your own definitions too

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KrazyKirby99999@reddit

Some disabilities are more permanent than others.

A mental unwellness is a form of disability.

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Rollexgamer@reddit

I'd like to see where you got that definition of disability, since most dictionaries would disagree with it. "disability" does not mean "being unwell", it's more nuanced than that, and I think you know that

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felipec@reddit

So? Since when are mentally unwell people incapable of achieving great things?

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mrtruthiness@reddit

The creator of TempleOS was mentally unwell. And I can see that TempleOS is quite the monument. But I'm not going to use it.

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Booty_Bumping@reddit

By the way, Xenocara is a much more reputable soft-fork of Xorg. It exists so that Xorg can continue to be maintained and extended for BSD/Unix use cases, and it doesn't have conspiracy theories in its README file.

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Fit-Illustrator8366@reddit

Wayland is a quite mediocre protocol. It costs a lot in terms of compatibility (versioning, extensions [for some reason, decades later, we haven't and don't put efforts in building a minimum common ground], portals) and adds basically nothing. Isolation is the bare minimum, there's no real security model. We use dbus (it's not exactly safe nor much efficient) + pipewire for communication (so surface attack is basically the same, when not bigger).

Different from the systemd case, while its implementation could be questioned, the design was MUCH superior to sysv and still quite good compared to others like openrc, daemontools, etc.

Anyways xlibre can be useful for xwayland (it's 99% xorg code anyways).

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Realistic_Bee_5230@reddit

Can't we just work on Wayland and Arcan?

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aliendude5300@reddit

Arcan? What's that?

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ScriptedByTrashPanda@reddit

After a quick search, I'm presuming it's this: https://github.com/letoram/arcan

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aliendude5300@reddit

I'm not familiar with arcan, as far as I know nobody is using it for a desktop environment yet.

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ScriptedByTrashPanda@reddit

It's the first I've heard of it as well, honestly. Never seen any reference by any DEs or distros or anywhere prior to the comment you initially responded to.

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Realistic_Bee_5230@reddit

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Arcan-0.6.3-Released

It is a display server that is older than wayland and has been in the works for some time now. They are on version 0.7 right now!

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aliendude5300@reddit

Huh. Today I learned.

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grigio@reddit

Xlibre is the new systemd-free Linux war

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mrdaltro@reddit

With the exception that SystemD being against UNIX standards is an actual topic, while saying you're "anti big techs" and "anti DEI" in the same sentence is just idyllic.

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Leliana403@reddit

UNIX standards

When you can't even tell the difference between standards and a vague philosophy, you should probably keep your opinions to yourself for a while. It'll be less embarrassing for you.

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AnsibleAnswers@reddit

Performing CPR on a corpse in full rigor mortis.

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elijuicyjones@reddit

More news about the colossal waste of time from the colossal douche. Yawn.

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Euroblitz@reddit

Bruh

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Rollexgamer@reddit

You linked the same guy (Lunduke) 5 times as "sources". He's infamous for just being a sensationalist YouTuber that always blows up unnecessary drama for views.

If that's your "source" (even worse, 5 of them), then I call BS.

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ADMINISTATOR_CYRUS@reddit

> Source: Lunduke (alt right guy)

> Fork is "Non DEI"

> Torvalds had to shut Enrico up about his antivaxx views during covid on the linux mailing lists

Good idea, pass on this guy because they're weird as fuck

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lelddit97@reddit

guy is unhinged, expect nothing from it

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silenceimpaired@reddit

I’m confused… who would these “corporate interests” be?

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Booty_Bumping@reddit

I'm so glad that upstream Xorg is finally being allowed to "rot forever" (aside from XWayland), free from Enrico's crap being shoved into it. There's no reason for a dead project to be producing that much noise, all of the effort should be directed towards the XWayland part.

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Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

Yeah. People like him complaining a project does not advance fast enough, while actively slowing it down on purpose. Yeah good riddance.

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RegularTechGuy@reddit

Look i'm all up for great display server but yes wayland had time to be great but the speed at which it progressed is really terrible. In the meantime, xorg maintainers burried the project instead of improving it. So it is obvious that A fork that improves xorg is a welcome news for everyone. Don't you all agree that. A lot time, energy, even money from generous donors have been put into it. So burying something like that is a big injustice to free and open source world. Coming to a controversial topic like big companies running wayland and burying xorg, we the users(well most of us atleast) cannot understand or comprehend such things. So any improvement to widely used xorg is a very welcome news until something that truely replaces it available to everyone of us.

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try4gain_@reddit

one of the only comments that's not a le-reddit circle jerk, so of course it's buried at -6 votes and hidden under the Wrong Think "comment score below threshold" feature to keep adults safe from opinions other le-redditors didnt like

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Julius_Alexandrius@reddit

Do you want your milk? Maybe your diaper is full?

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underdoeg@reddit

how is xorg "buried"?

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crystalchuck@reddit

"The code doers aren't doing the code I would like to see, they must be conspiring against me"

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Misicks0349@reddit

Looking through this there are a couple things I can glean

1) apparently this guy was the anti-vaxxer on the lkml?

2) the readme is a bit of a screed about big tech boycotts, state actors, DEI and "making X great again".

3) whilst there are a massive amount of commits the vast vast vast majority basically amount to just code shuffling: removing unused functions, unexporting functions unused by drivers, moving code around here or there, some minor bug-fixes and such. I'm sure there are a couple notable changes but there is so much noise that its hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaff in a reasonable amount of time

4) they want to break ABI lol

tbh I expect this to go one of two ways

1) it'll be a hard fork (per the ABI stuff) and probably wont be used because of that

2) the creator gets bored of the project after a while, like so many protest-forks before it (the rust fork "crablang" comes to mind).

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mrdaltro@reddit

> "non DEI"
> "no big techs"

As a Brazilian, this looks even more funny. Executives from Google, Amazon and Meta were in the last week in an event ministering workshops for Liberal Party's (the Jair Bolsonaro's party) politicians and affiliated influencers. X injected hundreds of millions of dollars in Trump's campaign and now we have to endure with all this alt-right bullshit. They can't hold their own shit!

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Rigamortus2005@reddit

Lmao

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mrdaltro@reddit

> "non DEI"
> "no big techs"

As a Brazilian, this looks even more funny. Executives from Google, Amazon and Meta were in the last week in an event ministering workshops for Liberal Party's (the Jair Bolsonaro's party) politicians and affiliated influencers. X injected hundreds of millions of dollars in Trump's campaign and now we have to endure with all this alt-right bullshit. They can't hold their own shit!

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FriedHoen2@reddit

I hope this fork will be a success. Wayland is still largely inadequate for advanced desktop use.

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YKS_Gaming@reddit

such as?

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Educational-Fruit854@reddit

Good IME Support (for my language at least), When app actually adopt Global Keybind portal and Advanced Macroing

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YKS_Gaming@reddit

eh, gnome problems

kde already has a workaround (for global keybinds) when gnome can't get around to do stuff. Honestly, a lot of "wayland problems" are gnome wayland problems.

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Educational-Fruit854@reddit

still doesn't help that gnome wanna kill X11 session before wayland can 100% fully replace X11 with no loss in functionality 🫤

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YKS_Gaming@reddit

again, gnome problems

KDE lets distros decide whether to keep the x11 session, gnome looks to force remove x11.

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ABotelho23@reddit

KDE lets distros decide whether to keep the x11 session

It won't be long. X11 code for these desktop environments is mostly let to rot. They are unlikely to fix bugs related to X11 unless they totally break KDE running under X11.

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underdoeg@reddit

It's actually merged now in gnome as well: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/xdg-desktop-portal-gnome/-/merge_requests/208

Very often "gnome wayland problems" are actually wayland problems or better a lack of protocol definition. gnome refuses to implement any workarounds. it's a valid strategy but it can really slow things down.

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