Germany: Digital Minister wants open standards and open source as guiding principle
Posted by donutloop@reddit | programming | View on Reddit | 83 comments
punkbert@reddit
Let me mention again that we really could need a well supported European Opensource Mobile OS. It's completely insane to me that we rely on either Apple or Google here.
International_Cell_3@reddit
It's not insane when you track the history of it. Europe had one major handset manufacturer (Nokia), they bet on Symbian, Symbian kinda sucked and Nokia didn't make many good products comparable to the iPhone, they switched to Windows Mobile (which also sucked), and lost market share year over year.
Google only broke through with Android by making it free or paying people to use it instead of their in-house operating systems (while making money on the search/services side of it). Apple broke through with iOS because they made the best products and would never touch someone else's hardware.
European companies made mediocre software on mediocre hardware and it's unsurprising that consumers picked American operating systems on American, Chinese, and Korean hardware.
punkbert@reddit
I agree completely with the history you describe; it is certainly explainable why the situation has developed the way it is now.
But I strongly believe that the EU should have invested way more into Opensource projects years ago; all kinds of software for public services could have been funded, and it could have been a motor for the EUs digital sovereignty and independence, and also a symbol of unity for the EU.
In that light I think it is insane that we so far have build a mobile future that relies completely on US companies. I do see why it happened, but it is also careless and naive that we let it happen without building any alternative.
Aggressive-Two6479@reddit
They definitely should have - but let's not forget that we are only now entering the era where the first generation of home computer users is the right age for participating in high level government work.
The last 20 years we had to cope with politicians who had no clue how to handle these things.
punkbert@reddit
That's a good point! I hope things change soon.
International_Cell_3@reddit
One of the advantages (or curses, depending on how you look at it) of the American tech industry is that it doesn't wait for consensus, cooperation, or direction from regulators/governments/institutions. Companies "can just do things" and there is a massive pool money sitting around to fund moonshots, both within organizations and from external sources.
You even see this within the United States. Outside of California and some hubs (NYC, Boston, DC to an extent) almost no one understands how to build an ecosystem where large open source projects can exist and thrive. The seeds exist everywhere but you need fertilizer and irrigation to make them grow.
Globally, everyone wants to have a tech industry and open source ecosystem that drives that industry and helps it thrive. Cheap government tech projects that are stable and make services more efficient, high paying jobs for a tax base, large contracts between enterprises to keep capital flowing, etc.
The problem ime is that most governments are unwilling to accept that these are second order effects of upstream industrial, labor, and/or tax policy. And there are two extremes, the US (unbridled flow of money into unregulated industries, a financial sector so flush with cash that venture capital becomes an efficient use of capital), and China (extreme protectionism, party control, turning your industry into a sink of foreign investment but does not leak out).
Most governments are unwilling to set policy initiatives that result in a thriving software industry.
If Europe wanted their own Android they would make VC the most efficient use of capital, make all software development salaries tax preferred, ban non-compete or anti-moonlighting contracts, encourage consolidation in the tech industry, and so on. These are all things that make the American tech industry a powerhouse (particularly in California).
DerDave@reddit
Honestly, de-googled Android is really good.
I'm also running postmarketOS on a phone. Totally not ready for the masses, but that would be the end goal.
ddeeppiixx@reddit
De-googled Android is voiding warranty (except maybe one or two brands), and doesn’t run many apps (including banking and streaming).. it’s an enthusiast hack at best
maser120@reddit
You can always flash the original rom back.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
Let’s at least start with a much easier target of getting a desktop open source os a meaningful user share
punkbert@reddit
I'm all for that, but on the desktop we have the alternative in form of several great Linux distros. I've been using Linux for a decade now, for me it's absolutely awesome.
On mobile we don't. While there are a few projects, they are absolutely not comparable to Android/ios, don't work with existing applications, not with all phone models, etc.
Given that owning a smartphone is becoming more and more a necessity to participate in our digital world and to use basics like public transport and public digital services, I believe that european states have an obligation to offer their citizens a mobile platform for digital access that isn't run by US american companies.
Digital access has become a basic need in our world, and we still rely on profit driven american companies that earn a 100 billion a quarter. Insane.
phileat@reddit
You realize building this sort of software is incredibly complex and someone would need to be paid to make and maintain it right?
National-Ad-1314@reddit
Isn't Android basically Linux ? Can something be spun out along the same lines ?
madness_of_the_order@reddit
Android uses linux kernel but it’s basically another os on top of linux kernel. Android core is open source so you theoretically can use it as open source os. But basically every app relies on google services which are proprietary so you will need alternative infrastructure for apps.
kaeshiwaza@reddit
Yes, the problem is more about services than software.
NihilisticAngst@reddit
You're right, but then the problem is really just about funding. We can all want a thing to exist but until a sizeable portion of the population is ready to pay for it, it's just not going to happen, otherwise it already would have. These services that we rely on Google for are just too complex and expensive to build and run under the open-source model without more funding.
ughthisusernamesucks@reddit
There's multiple projects based on android that already exist. There's also projects like postmarketos which are linux based, but not android based.
They're no where near good enough to actually be used by anything that needs their shit to actually work to get things done though.
axonxorz@reddit
Linux on the desktop is GNU/Linux.
Linux on Android is Android/Linux. There is no GNU toolchain or even
glibc, they use Bionic as the C runtime as it is BSD-licensed and uses code from the various BSDswalterbanana@reddit
There are multiple Android based distros that are pretty good, they are just a pain to install.
Asyx@reddit
I think for Linux it would really help if we had big money for a team that just tries to keep the Linux experience as smooth as possible for ordinary users. Like, pay the people to make sure KDE works flawlessly every update. I think as developers we sometimes forget that our "easy fixes around that" are just not easy fixes for ordinary people.
But I agree that mobile is a much bigger issue but also harder to get right.
In a perfect world the EU should have a union funded open source task force that is basically providing manpower to do all the shit work in open source for consumer hardware. QA, bug fixing, compatibility and so on. Pay those people well, get good project managers that can work with the foundations and organizations that manage those open source projects and make sure that we get a solid foundation for computing needs of private citizens and companies (in the EU but open source and stuff so I guess everybody benefits).
ughthisusernamesucks@reddit
I'm not sure this is an issue. The linux foundation doesn't really have anything to do with how development actually happens. They're more of a funding and organizational body. Most crucially, if they were to ever do something you disagreed with, you can take the code and give them a giant middle finger and there's nothing they can do about it.
I think the bigger issue is that a huge percentage of development on linux is from US based companies, not so much the foundation itself.
OpenBSD is better in that regard for sure.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
We do have linux distros. But when in many cases you can’t even interact with government services while using one they may as well be non existent. Gearing all services to interact using established standards would be much easier, have larger impact (there are things you can’t do from mobile but can from pc) and would also make it much easier to create an oss mobile os.
Apart from that main problem with mobile is that most things are app based instead of web based. Who is gonna force companies to create apps for new platform which has no users? Or are you suggesting creating open source alternative to google services and to use android apps while constantly chasing compatibility?
It would be nice to have an oss mobile os, but in my opinion it’s much better to succeed in a lot of small but constant improvements then to start a huge risky project. Especially since those improvements wold make such project much smaller and easier.
ughthisusernamesucks@reddit
Just to highlight this problem, this was one of the major issues with windows phone. Not even a behemoth with practically infinite money to throw at this problem could solve it.
Kevin_Jim@reddit
The only entity that’s doing anything of significance on that side is Valve, with SteamOS.
Even Canonical couldn’t move the needle that much on the desktop side.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
Using linux as workstation os in government agencies could move a needle quite a bit
Kevin_Jim@reddit
Sure. If they did that, it could. Will they?
madness_of_the_order@reddit
It’s nice that at least one big talking head is talking about this again. Not holding my breath too though.
lolimouto_enjoyer@reddit
You will not get user share unless you essentially recreate windows and make it better.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
Mac os is doing fine without being windows clone. Kde is quite close to windows. Imho as os linux is already much better for most cases. Real problems are driver support from vendors (this one is not that huge nowadays) and some specific software support (this one will be much easier to solve if government will move to open standards for documents and protocols which will force many companies to support them too. Furthermore it will allow to introduce linux as workstations for government and non government employees. That will familiarize a lot of users with it. From here on why won’t some users move to cheaper alternative especially if we sprinkle a bit of advertising on top of it?)
Staatstrojaner@reddit
The only problem is, that established Windows and MacOs programs just don't exist for Linux or exist only as inferior clones. People are creatures of habit and that's why Windows is as successful as it is - pretty much all software is backwards compatible. The OS can be as good or better than Windows, if no one is actually developing stuff for it, it's doomed to fail.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
The most used software and increasingly often the only software people use on desktop is browser - those work on linux just fine. For most software completely analogous or superior alternative exist on linux. In many cases software on linux feels inferior because it’s forced to do things it’s not designed for (eg editing/creating ms office docs - which could be solved by switching to open standards). Primary missing software are highly specialized not needed by most like adobe suite or CAD tools.
madness_of_the_order@reddit
Mac os is doing fine without being windows clone. Kde is quite close to windows. Imho as os linux is already much better for most cases. Real problems are driver support from vendors (this one is not that huge nowadays) and some specific software support (this one will be much easier to solve if government will move to open standards for documents and protocols which will force many companies to support them too. Furthermore it will allow to introduce linux as workstations for government and non government employees. That will familiarize a lot of users with it. From here on why won’t some users move to cheaper alternative especially if we sprinkle a bit of advertising on top of it?)
Imaginary-Corner-653@reddit
How is that easier?
madness_of_the_order@reddit
On desktop we already have a fully functional os with some users. There are only a few interoperability problems to fix. With mobile problems start at hardware level (basically each smartphone is unique and you need to adapt your os for each model separately), then on os level there are several semi working oss solution from which we’ll have to choose and develop that one to fully functional level. Both those tasks are enormous and would take years to solve and when you solve them you can start solving interoperability problems from desktop.
Imaginary-Corner-653@reddit
Oh yes right. Makes sense.
ivancea@reddit
I need here the xkcd image about the 14 competing standards. This is barely different from a functional POV.
Make committees and alliances with those companies, instead of trying to artificially inject an OS nobody asked for to a full continent. And that will lack lots of features and support. Because of course, nobody with common (technical) sense would try this this way
FlyingRhenquest@reddit
Who would fund that?
AnnoyedVelociraptor@reddit
And it won't work because the EU is a group of individual countries, who all want their own thing.
shevy-java@reddit
As well as lobbyists influencing the governments. Aka bribe money.
Ok-Bit8726@reddit
Android is open source. You could build and run it if you really wanted to.
IanAKemp@reddit
We don't need another standard, we just need the current companies to behave themselves, and fines etc. are what enforce that.
schnurchler@reddit
Stop! Thats communism!
ivanicin@reddit
I think that Americans also think they should open source few things that they import instead of importing them. Though Trump prefers tariffs when he is in that position.
aanzeijar@reddit
It's not like we (IT folks in Germany) have been preaching that for 20 fucking years. But oh, it doesn't make for flashy campaign promises, so sorry, can't do anything until it's properly fucked up already.
KsuhDilla@reddit
sir im not sure if you gave enough fucks to show us you really care
markusro@reddit
Only 20?
aevitas@reddit
That's the thing about a good idea, it doesn't only take a good idea, it also takes a time in which the idea is relevant enough to be understood by the masses, so its importance can be understood. We shouldn't forget it takes more than just IT people to make any significant shift like this.
Staatstrojaner@reddit
Most importantly: next to time it also takes money, a lot of money. And that's always a bad thing for politicians and hard to explain to a regular John Doe (while other infrastructure is failing in Germany, e.g. optic fiber, railways etc).
wildjokers@reddit
This has absolutely nothing to do with programming.
shevy-java@reddit
Money? Operating systems?
I think we can argue about how much this has to do with programming. I think it does have to do with programming. How much extent is debatable.
wildjokers@reddit
From the Guidelines in the sidebar:
ivosaurus@reddit
Time for Microsoft to pony up another headquarters?
shevy-java@reddit
I think this will only work as long as the older generation is in power.
The younger generation understands how bribes work and how to counter them. "Politicians" who work for private interests must leave politics.
Matthew94@reddit
You know old people were also the young and up and coming politicians once too?
Inevitable-East-1386@reddit
Guys, seriously leave apple out of that.
shevy-java@reddit
Germany is strange. They had a linux-like operating system, then sold out to Microsoft. And now they suddenly preach "omg zonkers, open source IS THE WAY TO GO!!!". Soon some lobbyists run in and then Germany is "hey, closed source is GREAT, we love paying US companies controlling our data!".
The dutch are at the least consistent. They said "open source is excellent - we stand by this". Same with France as well as northern EU countries (these are among the most cleverest a people in the EU, in my opinion anyway when it comes to open source anyway, I mean take Linus, even though he is now an US citizen).
scuddlebud@reddit
Would love to see open standard / protocol for RCS messaging implemented at a cross-carrier carrier level. I'm in the U.S. though so I will probably never get that.
01Parzival10@reddit
The only thing I want is that the 294 counties in Germany don't all develop their own software.
I don't even care whether it's proprietary anymore
chasetheusername@reddit
Nah, the 107 cities and city counties will also develop their own :)
lolimouto_enjoyer@reddit
Why not? Sounds like job security to me.
In9e@reddit
That's not wants they are doing they wanna complete control your life with digital id's and digital euro wake the f up...
rom_romeo@reddit
LMAO! Yapping about relying too much on US solutions, believing that the solution for other European countries should be provided by Germany.
yonasismad@reddit
Also "our values" lmao. When you look at what they actually do it's anti-freedom, pro mass surveillance and police state.
StickiStickman@reddit
You're talking about the US, right?
yonasismad@reddit
No, about the EU and Germany.
https://www.heise.de/en/news/Federal-Council-calls-for-rapid-deployment-for-the-police-10325677.html Mass surveillance with Palanatir
https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verschluesselte-kommunikation-breite-ablehnung-fuer-skandaloesen-hintertueren-vorschlag-der-union/ Breaking E2EE.
StickiStickman@reddit
The irony is that the US has been doing the same, but 10x worse.
yonasismad@reddit
I'm not sure how that's ironic. Both the US and Germany have terrible politicians and can both suck. It's not an either/or situation.
StickiStickman@reddit
Because there's a MASSIVE difference and you're just being crazy reductionist? I'll take German politics over US politics any day.
yonasismad@reddit
Merz's party has met with advisors from the Heritage Foundation, i.e. the people who wrote Project 2025. Former ministers from that party have also met with and praised DeSantis in the past, as well as attending the RNC. Some of their politicians have even collaborated with Nazis to plan the deportation of 22 million Germans. Don't be fooled. Merz and much of the German population love Trump's ideas. They just don't like the fact that Trump doesn't want to collaborate with them.
In case you are curious about the role models of German government officials...
punkbert@reddit
How do you misinterpret that?
Sairenity@reddit
That's not too bad of an idea. Anything's a better idea than continuing on with all eggs in one basket being carried by a certain stable genius.
ZelphirKalt@reddit
Wait for next MS initiative offer to build something in Germany and politicians folding in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
HerrKoboid@reddit
Rare germany W
EverythingsBroken82@reddit
just negotation tactic to get better prices. we germans are to lazy and just want to manage the wealth of the old people, not really investing anything.
ivanicin@reddit
Nothing new under the sky. When you lose the battle you go open source to pretend you are still competing.
If it was a winning strategy, why not open source the design of German cars?
Mabot@reddit
And as always when someone claims what is missing is standards:
xkcd927
Bloodshoot111@reddit
That really flew above your head. He does not want to create a new standard, but to use open source ones instead of proprietary ones.
amabamab@reddit
The German Digital Minister doesnt even know how to right IO....
GrizzlySin24@reddit
Because he doesn‘t have to. He is the Political representative and his job is to organise the majorities for those endeavours. The people one level below him, the so called Staatssekretäre, are the ones with the actual actual knowledge.
KevinCarbonara@reddit
error-0x800705b4@reddit
Well, that doesn’t seem write
amabamab@reddit
Oh wow didnt see that lol
SHFTD_RLTY@reddit
While that's true, even a broken clock is right two times a day and I didn't expect something like this from our government.
Way better then getting lobbied by some US tech giants like what was happening before