Managing a "senior" dev that is actually insanely junior.
Posted by Lanky-Ad4698@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 91 comments
So first of all this contractor we hired was a bad hire. Literally said he is a senior, but this guy is so junior its insane. Management was in an insane rush to hire thus we now have this guy.
Hiring mistakes to prevent this ever happening again:
- On resume calls him a senior, had a bunch of big things on his resume. Led X project, increased x%, should have drilled him how he achieved those things step by step.
- Hid the fact that he got laid off. I know not all layoffs are performance based, but a good amount are. I know there is controversy around this. But yeah, if I had the choice, don't choose people that are laid off. Should have asked, are you still X company (most recent company on resume). Updated his resume after hire
- The agency we hired, was blowing hot air. Said he had a competing offer and we had to act quick. Unfortunately, I was off during this time. And cause management wanted someone so quick. They didn't verify proof of competing offer.
Its bad because I am going to be partially blamed for getting a bad hire now. But for now, I am stuck with managing this guy.
- Literally zero self starter self sufficiency or capability to google anything. Company uses lots of B2B apps, and generally most dashboards are intuitive and popular enough that you literally google everything on how to do it. But he can't even do that. Like this isn't even coding at this point. And if you can't google pretty much googling non-coding tasks. Then what the hell. He goes, I have never used this platform. Me either man. Like I was introduced to like 10+ B2B SaaS apps that I just had to figure out. I didn't have to ask anyone.
- First few tasks, I was very explicit with every thing cause they were new.
- Then slowly started being less explicit, so he could take over and self-manage. Literally only did the things that were explicitly asked, but didn't complete the end goal. It was obvious everything was broken.
- Then they said there isn't enough detail in the tasks...
- I then put in so much effort to be more explicit again. And then he doesn't read crap. I literally have to repeat everything where I just replied. I feel like this might be toxic, but I literally reply to my message I sent 1 min ago, saying something along the lines of "see this".
- He says the PR is ready for review. Literally everything broken..., So I didn't want to publicly humiliate him on PR comments. So just chatted that this needs a lot more work. Like he doesn't even notice that everything was entirely broken.
- I don't want to feel like micro-managing this guy. But if I don't check up on him, like every day its going to be like that PR where everything is broken.
Also he keeps trying to have small talk with me...I'm like bro...you don't have time to small talk. On the surface I am still trying to be really nice. Saying things in PR blaming myself. Like "Am I missing something?"
Guy has been here for 2.5 months. Other signs of noobish is that on screen shares. He uses ZERO hotkeys.
NotDaltonn@reddit
I’m really curious about the hotkey thing. Like he doesn’t use hot keys in his IDE? Can you give an example
It’s one of the things that I don’t know what you mean so I’m afraid i might do it lol
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Pretty much, just using the mouse with everything.
I will give a more simplistic example. If you saw someone in a office job that never used Cmd/Ctrl + C or Cmd/Ctrl +V, but right clicked to copy and paste...you would be like what in the world?
Same exact thing with this guy. But he at least uses hotkey for copy and paste
RandomNpc69@reddit
Seriously fuck off, using hotkeys or not is ultimately personal preference
The way you nitpick on petty stuff like this makes me glad I am not working with you.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
You aren’t getting the point. I’m not going to not hire someone solely based on hotkeys. That would be crazy.
It’s part of full analysis. And you know it’s true too.
It also tells me how you think . That you don’t consider optimizing or increase efficiency. In any capacity.
And you probably getting so damn but hurt, because you know what I’m saying is true.
Imagine a top pro tennis player, picking up a tennis ball with his hand and never using the pick up off the leg.
These are subtle clear indicators you are a huge noob.
RandomNpc69@reddit
It doesn't matter if the dev is using hotkeys or not. Maybe the guy is more comfortable using a mouse for more stuff than keyboard.
The only things you should assess is delivering results in time, analytical skills, Independence, and being a good team player.
The way a developer uses their tools is completely up to them and it's ridiculous to judge them based on that.
And no, layoffs are not mostly perfomance based.
Remember the last time microsoft did layoffs, many top engineers responsible for things like making typscript 10x by re writing it in Go, etc were laid off.
You have a lot of preconceived notions.
ImSoCul@reddit
"he uses ZERO hotkeys" OP is the problem, close the thread
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
If you are a senior software engineer and don’t use any hotkeys. That’s a massive red flag. That you didn’t think to optimize something with such a low investment with high time ROI.
It shows you haven’t been developing long enough to think it is worth it. So it is a sign of being a huge noob.
ImSoCul@reddit
I only have your biased account of your coworker but the fact that you go to those lengths to cherrypick tells me everything I need to know about you lol.
I'm glad we don't work together
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
You missing out then, cause if you underperform every other person in the world would rip you up by this point.
ImSoCul@reddit
missing out on what? I use hotkeys, I'm impressed that you're still missing the point
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
I am replying to your response is general about my entire post. Not about hotkeys in general. That is what I'm replying to. The recent comment you are replying to has nothing to do about hotkeys
ImSoCul@reddit
what am i missing out on?
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
The whole hotkeys thing is literally only a small single variable. I'm not going to NOT hire someone based on them using or not using hotkeys. If I do, that would be outright stupid. But thats what you are missing. You are thinking that if I see someone NOT using hotkeys, its an immediate no hire. That is NOT it.
It is an indicator or variable.
Anyone that does office work, if they didn't use hotkeys for Ctrl+C or Ctrl+V. Thats kinda something you see in people who have never coded before. Same concept for developers, but our hotkeys are normally extended beyond that.
Another example, in tennis people pick up balls by using the racquet an sandwich the ball on their leg to pick it up, because its takes less energy than bending over and picking it up.
So if you see a so called "experienced" tennis player not doing this. You are kind of like wtf. Samething here.
I see this so called "experienced" developer not using any hotkeys. Smells funky eh. If you code fro that long of time, and haven't used hotkey. Something is a bit fishy.
ImSoCul@reddit
what am i missing out on?
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Honestly there is no point in arguing cause this post has already hit what I call the "Bandwagon" stage.
OP makes post, high upvote comments backfiring. Every single comment afterwards will be doing everything in their power to counteract every single thing I say, because they "Bandwagon" on the high upvote comments. That the meta of the sub and they feel comfortable trashing whatever I say.
This post is dead to me.
ImSoCul@reddit
I was one of the first people to respond lol. You can call it bandwagon but you're actually being delusional while everyone is telling you you're in the wrong
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
I am though... But not all hiring decisions made by one person. It was made be a group and I am part of that group.
Yes, well past the interview stage. Well, its just something I'm noticing thats all. That this guy seems like a fraud. And if I find out he is fraud, which kind of seems like it. Then I have basis to get him let go. And now the fact that I'm managing this guy, yeah I kinda do have to pay attention to what this guy does.
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
You know why I got really into knowing shortcuts? RSI. Actual pain is a great motivator.
The faster way of working is mostly moot when you type - think - type - think - .. enough productive 'downtime' keyboard-wise to easily compensate for the slowest of the slow mouse movements and clicking.
It's way nicer to work this way and I wish every app had a vim mode but it is not an indication of being a good programmer. I'm a decent standard mediocre performer at best.
uwilllovethis@reddit
Also why is trying to make small talk bad. The guy is your colleague, not an ai agent.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
I have seen it in nearly every company I have been at and not specific to me. But if you suck at your job, you can’t afford to small talk.
Because you are starting off the conversation with people that are frustrated with you. It doesn’t play out well at all
uwilllovethis@reddit
I understand the sentiment but common man you can’t have that mentality. What’s next, you being bitter that he gets invited to the offsite? That he’s present at the after-work drinks instead of working overtime? Just PIP him (or raise the issue to someone that can PIP him) instead of getting annoyed at him exhibiting basic human social behavior.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Nope, see my OP. I am doing as much as possible to be nice to this guy.
Every other person I have worked with at this point would have ripped this guy a new one at this point.
madethisforcrypto@reddit
I don’t understand. A lot of qualified people got laid off. Are you looking for someone that already has a job?
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Not from what I have seen.
dutchman76@reddit
How the heck do you submit broken code? I wouldn't expect even junior people to do that? Like don't they run and test in their dev environment?
d0rkprincess@reddit
I did this a few weeks ago after hitting ctrl+z one too many times. I had the working code, I decided just quickly try something else, decided to undo it, and didn’t bother to run it again as I was tired and fed up… I’ve never felt so stupid before. I’ve learnt my lesson tho.
dutchman76@reddit
Been there actually.
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
I've had it happen before with a large java application where we decided to completely discard a big submodule but to keep 1 function from it and port it to the main application.
I ported the function, ported the tests, app compiles, tests all green, thing blows up a week later in production with a stack trace. Why? I didn't add a specific runtime scoped library that the serialization needed that I missed in the original pom and it blew up at runtime. So it was effectively broken code at that point and none of the tests covered this more rare branch in the function I ported .
It compiled, I ran the tests, I ran it locally and it ran through all more extensive test scenarios on our test environment, nothing caught it, still broken.
dutchman76@reddit
I suspect OP wouldn't have caught that one in their code review either, what a nightmare!
I'd like to see how broken the junior's PR was, I bet it wasn't anything that sophisticated.
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
Honestly this want that sophisticated either. The main cause of the error and non converting tests was the whole thing being a horrible old god function of 10k+ lines and me not even knowing this legacy module at all.
The error gave me the excuse needed to spend the time to properly refactor, we found multiple business rule errors and in the end got a faster and more correct function out of it.
nyanpi@reddit
I’ve accidentally submitted broken code as a PR a few times over the years but it was always some dumb mistake that was easily caught in a review. Just some standard human error usually after a long day but even then I still felt awful about it.
I can’t believe there are actually devs performing like this in a professional setting
durandall09@reddit
"Don't choose people who are laid off"
Fuck all the way off bro.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Look, why did the guy hide the fact he was laid off when he was looking for a job?
We all know subconsciously of consciously that it is very negative perception. And for a reason to.
See my other comment, but we had round of layoffs. And you guessed it…the lowest performers. The highest performers are actually getting promoted while this is happening.
Just stating facts, don’t shoot the messenger.
And I stated, if I had the choice between two candidates where everything was the same. I would not choose the person that was laid off. Even others acknowledge that MOST layoffs are performance based. BUT that doesn’t mean ALL
verb_name@reddit
Because people like you will judge him negatively for it, regardless of whether he is capable of succeeding at your company.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
In this case, the layoff and performance are correlated
madethisforcrypto@reddit
Dude you sound stupid.
Elegant_in_Nature@reddit
No you’re just stating a shallow observation of the social context of where you are, pretty typical for junior engineers actually lol
WolfNo680@reddit
Who? Where? What numbers do you have to back this up? I'd love to know.
Because it's not relevant? If you don't ask, why the heck would I tell you? It has absolutely no bearing on whether I can do the job you're currently interviewing me for, so it's not necessary to talk about.
vipnasty@reddit
Ngl while this new hire could clearly do better I’d never want to work with someone like OP.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
You would actually...cause from what I have witnessed in the past. Whenever there was a poor performer. Guess what, everyone was insanely toxic to that individual. But me.
Any other person at this point in time would rip this guy to shreds that he would probably consider resigning. But nope actually sympathizing with the guy and still respecting and being nice to him.
You aren't gonna find someone like me with this amount of patience.
cerberus402@reddit
What a fuckin savior complex dude. Fuck all the way off bro.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Just speakin facts, have seen every coworker get insanely toxic at this point just saying.
verb_name@reddit
Your interview process should evaluate the skills, experience, and behaviors you care about. A person being laid off or fired, or having competing offers, does not tell you how they will perform at your company.
Doub1eVision@reddit
Filtering out a candidate simply because they were laid off is just setting yourself up to only thirsting for candidates that are currently employed. And there aren’t going to be that many candidate like that.
pplmbd@reddit
yeah I can sympathize with OP problem, but that part bugs me. Most of the layoffs are performance based, but that doesn’t mean it’s the employees fault. You could be in a good team full of rockstars and you’re a rockstar just below the others within a company that keeps shooting itself in the foot
Sheldor5@reddit
or the performance measures are bullshit/wrong and the rockstar got laid off ...
truthputer@reddit
Yes.
I was the only person on my team that shipped a feature one quarter, but then I was also the only person from my team that was laid off a few weeks later.
I never really found out why.
Careful_Ad_9077@reddit
Or people get fired based not on performance but on who gets the less expensive severance.
Or whole teams get fired.
Or he had a bad month with impeccable timing.
Or people get fired based on seniority.
Or ir was a literal dice throw
I have seen these and more.
Awkward_Past8758@reddit
Or you’re on a team full of rockstars but the head of your department keeps making bad business decisions so they cut your department
PersianMG@reddit
This also irked me. It's common for entire departments to be axed which includes top performers. Some people leave for serious life or medical reasons etc. Others might have been laid off at one point for poor performance but they upskilled and improved.
It's easy to judge and make assumptions about people's lives and character but its unfair. During interviews, asses their skills and fit, and make a decision accordingly.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Leaving for serious life and medical reasons is much different than being laid off.
That’s the point, laid off at one point for poor performance. Unfortunately, most people don’t change. That’s what I noticed a lot about low performers. They aren’t even aware they are bad. So when they get laid off, they say “oh company is being a jerk” Not realizing it was due to poor performance.
Doub1eVision@reddit
You assume it’s due to poor performance, and you’re demonstrating clear bias to interpret that it is due to poor performance.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Assume it’s poor performance. They literally stated first round of layoffs were specifically targeting poor performers.
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
Agreed. OPs view on that point is downright defective.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
As I stated, I know that viewpoint is very controversial. As I know the layoffs have been crazy and not always performance based.
But there are layoffs at company right now only effecting internals. And guess who all the people that were laid off? The lowest performers. From what I’ve seen. I have never seen a literal 10x dev get laid off.
This problem person I’m talking about now is contractor. So they not effected yet…
timwaaagh@reddit
possibly wrong. a lot of firings are for silly reasons like 'no longer fits the culture'. or less silly reasons like 'no show on office days always'. performance? literally never seen it. maybe ramp up time.
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
Controversial and defective are not mutually exclusive - your cognitive output for this one is downright defective.
As you gain experience, you will most certainly encounter such a situation .
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
I still disagree that it’s defective.
MOST layoffs are performance based, but not ALL.
So from a probably standpoint and if I’m responsible for hiring, if I had the choice I wouldn’t choose a person that was laid off if all variables are the same. And YES, it sucks for the people that were laid off NOT because of performance issues.
And I’m assuming you are/were laid off before hence you taking this personally.
Doub1eVision@reddit
You keep asserting things with no evidence and continue to wonder why we see your view as defective.
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
Yeah, so based on your logic here, you shouldn’t be responsible for a PR much less hiring. And I’m going to extrapolate the cause to a lack of experience.
lol, no I am not and have not been.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
You haven’t really expanded or explained why it’s defective.
Does my logic not make sense? You are just saying oh based on what you said, you just shouldn’t be reviewing PRs or hiring.
But I actually don’t see any objective reason to choose someone laid off or NOT consider it a variable.
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
Oh, my sweet summer child, this is Reddit, and Reddit is not linear. I began this with a response to a top-level comment by another Redditor, not directly to you. Candidly, I owe you exactly nothing. The reasons for the nature of the defect are plentiful and spoken to by many other Redditors who replied to the same top-level comment and the level comment itself.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
You made a claim that my viewpoint is defective. And you are surprised when someone asks about objective arguments?
Deflecting with the BS that you are above me of “I don’t owe you anything”
Stop making claims, if you don’t have any objective arguments that’s all.
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
As I see it, there are two types of people: those who care about being right (as in not wrong - ego), and those who care about being right (correct) - try to embrace the latter, you'll be better for it.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Yeah good advice for you
askwhynot_notwhy@reddit
(For posterity, I’m the one who awarded the 🤡 with the “Hehe Lizard” award.)
pplmbd@reddit
the fact the he’s assuming that you’re taking it personally while never been laid off said much of what kind of person OP is
nopuse@reddit
You seem to be conflating lowest performers with poor performers.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
They were both, the lowest and poor performers. How do I know? Nobody liked them because their hard skills were bad.
preppy_goth@reddit
Yeah agreed on this. I was laid of twice in a row between 22-23 when the layoffs really spiked. First one they just nuked the entire project, it was a pseudo startup linked to a struggling streaming service and they shutdown the whole thing and only rehired lead engineer into the main company. The second one was another company that I loved but was struggling to break even. Never had a single negative performance review. But also I try to be upfront about both.
Doub1eVision@reddit
I’m sure OP will suddenly think very differently once they have the experience of being laid off due to a change in company priorities.
Huge-Leek844@reddit
I will offer another perspective. Try to mentor him so he can improve. If he doesnt want it then let him go.
Have some empathy men. Everyone has different backgrounds, different work environments. I was very unlucky to be on a job where i dont learn that much. Now i am trying to leave and its not easy.
An advice i give you: be honest with the guy and that you want to mentor him.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
Did you not read my post. That I am pretty much mentoring him. By being very explicit to the point that I’m pretty much doing his job…and even then he struggles.
timwaaagh@reddit
i do think you need to take a walk and think it over carefully. The wording in your post suggests you are a little over invested emotionally. then you can think about whether the monkey can be trained into usefulness. then think of how to coach him. even seniors do need ramp up time usually.
gemanepa@reddit
Idk where you're from but how would you even approach verifying something like that? It's crazy invasive to even ask for it, there's no way I would provide a random company with the info of another company that's giving me an offer. Your company didn't fail there, it clearly failed way before that during the technical interview process
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
I thought it was common to get proof of competing offers.
I mean cover up anything specific to company? Idk
gemanepa@reddit
I don't see what would be stopping an impostor from completely faking one at that point
FunBus9432@reddit
I know you are stuck with a bad dev but you mentioned two things that I hate about hiring in India: (1) You should not hire laid-off employees (2) Proof of competing offer
I don't get why people who are laid off because management over hired or decided to change in org structure is required to blame.
And the salary slips and offer letters are CONFIDENTIAL so you have no right to ask for those. You must have had a budget right then but be honest with him that " this is my budget and we can pay you this much only " if you want to hire him.
maybe_madison@reddit
It sounds like you need to have a direct conversation about the expectations for a senior IC, and then document if/when he doesn’t meet them. Either he gets his act together, or you (hopefully) can start a PIP.
alkbch@reddit
If I have the choice, I don’t help people who choose to not hire people who are laid off.
unconceivables@reddit
Stop trying to be nice, it's just enabling him. Let him fail. The only reason these guys can keep doing this is because people let them.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
His failure is gonna be on me though. Management wasn’t explicit about it earlier. But they say I’m responsible for managing him now. I guess I am management partially.
Pozeidan@reddit
Managing includes firing.
Not firing a bad employee is bad management. You'll regret not firing him soon enough. The longer you wait, the harder it is to fire someone.
Just stop enabling him. He claimed to be senior, he needs to act like one or leave.
Lanky-Ad4698@reddit (OP)
True facts
Sp4m@reddit
He needs to go. You know it. And stop working with that agency, btw.
Striderrrr_@reddit
Oh boy this sounds nearly identical to someone I worked with. Like to the T. They could barely use a Mac. Zero hotkeys, didn’t know how to use the IDE properly, always had “laptop issues”, and typed so slow I could cry. Code was terrible, didn’t know how to test. I could go on. Also the only human I’ve seen right click a link and tap “open on a new tab”.
Anyways, they got hired as my lead and was by far one of the worst developers I’ve worked with. One of the other devs on the team talked to our manager about it. That turned to me having one-on-ones weekly with the manager to discuss his progress. Mind you, he’s supposed to LEAD me.
Surprisingly they lasted two years. Although he improved, he was too slow and still kind of bad at everything. I believe he only lasted as long as they did because they were genuinely a very nice person.
Hiring mistakes happen.. it’s really hard to judge someone properly after a few interviews and without working with them. I feel like most companies always treat the first 6 months as a trial period, so you could potentially leverage that some way.
I would advise that you talk to your team and higher ups about it and just be honest. I wouldn’t flat out say they’re not cut for it, but it also depends on how coachable they’re willing to be. However, it’s good to set expectations early and let the team know that this may not work out the way you hoped it to
sandwichisland@reddit
sounds like the contractor had fake experience and actually was a junior
Klyrux@reddit
You have to be cruel to be kind - if you can fire him, or get someone else to fire him, do so.
-Dargs@reddit
It's okay to fire people who aren't capable of doing the job. Document the issues and complain to your boss. Don't be polite - be professional. If your boss is disinterested, go offer him to his boss. At some point, your company is going to suffer and probably already is.
Ask them if they want to invest 6 months to get this person to be autonomous and mediocre or if they'd like to let you interview a replacement that can do the same or better on day 1?
Odd_Lettuce_7285@reddit
Cut him at 90 days. Hiring is hard but it's harder on the team to let him stay around and be deadweight and a morale drain. Pick up some of the work yourself to help deal with the urgency to protect the team for a bit while you bring in a new hire. New hires generally can't impact urgent projects very quickly anyway.
vipnasty@reddit
You’re gonna have to have a conversation with him about how he isn’t meeting expectations.