Im too low and slow (pa28-181 archer)
Posted by No-Community-5830@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 86 comments
Hey everyone, I’m currently facing a consistent issue during my landings. I almost always end up low on the glide slope. When I try to correct by adjusting pitch, my airspeed drops, the aircraft starts to sink a bit more, and I end up even lower. I do add power (around 1900 RPM), but by then, it’s usually too late to stabilize the approach. Because of this, I don’t get enough time to flare properly and I often land flat.
According to our AOM, the recommended settings are: • Abeam touchdown: 1600 RPM, flaps 10°, pitch -2°, airspeed 90 KIAS • Base: 1600 RPM, flaps 25°, pitch -2°, airspeed 76 KIAS • Final: 1600 RPM, flaps 40°, pitch -2°, airspeed 66 KIAS
I try to follow this profile closely, but I still end up low, and minor pitch corrections don’t seem to help much. Any advice on how to better manage my glide path and keep the approach stabilized would be really appreciated. Like i should correct for airspeed first or glide slope first im confused…Thanks!
TheActualRealSkeeter@reddit
Just a heads up, instinctually correcting glideslope with back pressure is very likely to get you killed. Do not develop that habit
stopshaddowbanningme@reddit
Are you retrimming each time you're making an action in the pattern? The Archer seems to be especially touchy when it comes to trim.
Koorah3769@reddit
Are you on an instrument approach or vfr pattern?
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
Vfr
Koorah3769@reddit
Just pick your aim point out and freeze it in the windscreen with pitch. Then use power to control your speed. It seems counterintuitive to the “pitch for airspeed and power for altitude” but it’s the best way for a stable approach
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
Power settings are suggested. There are many variables that will have an effect. Your scan is too slow and you’re allowing yourself to get too far behind requiring large adjustments.
As a private pilot you should understand this by now.
SnarfsParf@reddit
Someone check me here, but I think my initial reaction to being low would be to add power and then pitch accordingly to maintain my airspeed until I’m back on the glideslope.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
This is an instrument student flying the plane like a 4 hour PPL.
This is why I hate the “pitch for speed, power for altitude” mantra. It’s the most basic of ways to teach something that often requires more than one thing to happen at a time.
Learn to do two things at once, people!
videopro10@reddit
But if OP was doing that he wouldn't have a problem. He's trying to do the opposite and fucking it up.
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
So i should just add power (ig)
NoGuidance8609@reddit
The pitch and power setting gouge you have is just a ballpark to get you close. It’s not a cake recipe to be followed without deviation. Add as much power as it takes to maintain desired glidepath and airspeed. Headwind? It’ll take more! Heavy Gross weight? It’ll take more? Light Quartering tailwind? It’ll take less. Don’t overthink it (too late)… just add more power.
Shadowinthesky@reddit
The way I was taught and it stuck with me was to imagine there is an imaginary rope behind the firewall that connects the throttle to your yoke. On final if one pushes the other pulls ALWAYS. If you do it together you won't end up in a low energy state.
The other option was that after 250 hrs of doing pitch for profile and power for speed I went to a flight school to become an instructor and they taught the opposite. It took a little while to get the hang of but a little bump in power is easier for a beginner to manage your profile than having to change pitch and then speed. In the airlines it won't work but after years of doing both I kind of blend both philosophies and you just sort of get a feel for what you need to manage your energy state.
doubledownonblack@reddit
I don't know where you are in your training but you should try to wrap your head around what each control input is doing. Adding power without changing attitude is going to increase both speed and lift and may well solve both your issues. What you need to be very mindful of is that pitching up when slow will increase induced drag potentially to the point where you are not able to gain altitude even at full power. A power increase followed by a pitch decrease will get you out of a 'low and slow' condition in most circumstances. Make sure you understand what the region of reverse command is.
flightist@reddit
You’re running out of energy because you’re raising the nose to shallow the descent and then doing nothing.
If you have power to maintain a steeper slope and then pitch up to shallow it out, is the power you had just magically enough, or do you think you have to do something?
If you pay somebody to teach you how to fly, can we just bill them for this?
grumpycfi@reddit
Lol glad someone said it.
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
So first thing i should do is pitch up and add some power to get on glide slope?
Clunk500CM@reddit
Pitch up AND AT THE SAME TIME add power.
Chair fly the two motions; at first it will feel awkward, but keep doing it until it becomes natural.
Own-Ice5231@reddit
I think sometimes CFIs do a disservice by saying "pitch for airspeed and power for glide slope" as it's a hard rule, definitely it is to avoid stalling, but sometimes you have to do both things at once to correct.
LondonPilot@reddit
“Pitch for airspeed” and “pitch for height” are both oversimplified - they are things we say to low-hours pilots because they are easy to understand, and either might work in the right circumstances, but neither will work all the time, and there are times that neither will work.
The truth is that power controls energy, and pitch converts that energy between height and airspeed.
If you are low and slow, you need more energy. Therefore, you need more power. That’s your number one priority.
You then need to use pitch as appropriate to determine what proportion of that energy gets turned into airspeed, and what proportion gets turned into height. If you add power and find you’re now low and fast, for example, then pitch up a little to turn that excess speed into height. With practice (and advice from your instructor, if they’re any good) you’ll be able to know what to do with the pitch in advance, instead of being reactive - but with time to spare, and while you’re still learning, pitching reactively is fine, so long as your power is already roughly correct.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
TheEchoChamber69@reddit
At this point I’m convinced it’s a cartel member lol
kyle32@reddit
I don't even think you should necessarily pitch up. You could just add power, especially if you like your speed already. Pitching up will slow you down.
KemHeka@reddit
Anytime you pitch up without adjusting power first you’re going to lose airspeed. It might be just a little if you’re quick on the throttle, but what if you’re not? What if you have an issue? What happens when you’re in slow flight, on final, and stall?
CrypticxTiger@reddit
My instructors always said “Pitch for speed, power for altitude but if you do one you must do the other to compensate for a change in attitude.
baby-shart@reddit
Well I was always taught full back pressure, power to idle, full deflection either rudder pedal (dealers choice), and flaps 0. Carb heat on, too.
TheEchoChamber69@reddit
If I had golden awards Sherlock you’d get 5.
hoppertn@reddit
How about 2 red balls and 2 white balls?
SnarfsParf@reddit
🥹
FossilFuelBurner@reddit
Stop reading a book ( “following the profile”) and fly the plane. Use whatever rpm you need to not be low and slow. Rpm guides are for brand new planes on perfect days, throw them out the window.
ilikeplanesandF1@reddit
This. Using the exact same rpm, and pitch setting down the to degree every time is not going to work. Width of pattern, wind, DA, etc will all adversely affect this technique.
OP, not to be critical of your school's training methods, but try looking outside and flying the airplane. Also, remember that when a correction is made you need to make a correction for your correction. If you're low, and need to raise the nose, simultaneously increase power to keep you from getting slow. The inverse is true if you are high and/or fast.
cfiJULI@reddit
Don't take out as much power. In the Archer, I would teach an rpm range of 1500-1800 rpm. This was in an area where we had generally good performance, and the combined weight of me and my student was always below 370lbs. Find a power setting that will get you 90kts and descending at 500 fpm with the first notch of flaps. Let the additional flaps slow you down throughout the rest of the pattern.
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
Yeah make sense… i will try higher power settings(1600 doesn’twork for me) will try 1700 Even me and my instructor weigh is around 380
Professional_Read413@reddit
Power first. I have most of my 120 hours in archer and warriors, but its the same in a 172. Power first then pitch. As soon as you start getting below glide slope add a little Power and as soon as I feel it coming back up I take about half of that out so I don't just blow through the other side.
Pitch adjustments are very small to maintain airspeed after power corrections.
This may be incorrect, but I mostly trim for my airspeed. And use power for high altitude. So im coming in on final in an Archer, flaps full, let the plane settle, then adjust trim to hit 65. Then if im high I start adjusting power to catch it again, slight pitch correction and trim back in 65...all the way down. Small corrections
LowNeighborhood9851@reddit
If you are trimmed for the right airspeed you won't have to mess with pitch, just a bump of power. All of our pa28 do better around 1700 not 1600. So just bump in the power and see what happens, it will want to stay on speed and just climb back up a bit for you.
Try to look out the window more, where is the spot on the runway that isn't moving?
healthycord@reddit
Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. General rule of thumb that you should’ve been taught. Go practice slow flight. You’ll see you need to do what I just said, and not pitching for altitude. The region of reversed command.
DeltaPapa402@reddit
Me: (no traffic in pattern ahead of my aircraft)
Abeam numbers: Chop power, drop full flaps and go for the numbers. Don't touch throttle again. Land using pure airspeed management. I learn how poorly of a glider your aircraft is but also learn to trust that your aircraft will make the numbers. And big emphasis do all of this crap in flight simulator first before you do it in real life like at least a hundred repetitions to get used to it before you practice it in the actual aircraft.
You can use all the mantras you want to think about pitch power, air speed,or whatever on landing. In all my years of flying I can tell you that it just takes feel. Sometimes you can't really describe what feels right with proper terminology and verbiage to get it through someone's head when it comes to sticking landings.
Landiemanny@reddit
Throttle for height, stick for speed.
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
I think you are following the AOM recommended settings a bit too much like dogma. Just fly the plane mate, conditions can change day to day, weight to weight, etc.
av8_navg8_communic8@reddit
You’re flying WRONG!
Pitch for airspeed. Power for altitude/glide slope.
DinkleBottoms@reddit
Don’t get so caught up in recommended power settings that you’re no longer flying the aircraft. Once you’re abeam, everything should be based on feel. Adjust your pitch and power simultaneously when making corrections. I couldn’t tell you what power setting I’m at on final because it doesn’t matter, I’m using what I need to maintain glide slope.
Anticipate what the aircraft is doing, if you’re low just pitching up isn’t going to do anything, you know it doesn’t do anything, so why do you keep doing it? You’re low, so increase your power and adjust pitch to maintain your airspeed, before you get back on glide slope, pull some of the power back out, so you don’t end up high.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
THIS. Small airplanes are basically hand built. Each one is a little different, as is the way each pilot handles them. The amount of gas, the weight of the pilot, the other crap in the airplane, etc, are all influences.
Fly the airplane. The POH is a guide
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
Every plane at my school has its own personality. You could probably put me in any of them with the tail number covered up and I could tell you what plane i was in within 4 or 5 minutes of flight.
SternM90@reddit
This is it. The power curve is a CURVE, meaning being slightly behind it (or in front of it) requires simultaneous inputs for desired flight profile. Only in the extremes is it truly reversed or purely power for speed
Dry-Engineering1776@reddit
Power for ALT pitch for airspeed.
I want you to try this. Set your power about 2-300 RPM Higher than you’ve been doing. Point the noise at the numbers and get on your glide speed.
With your pitch set and your airspeed locked in. Adjust your power as necessary. Try your best to set power, and adjust only as necessary. You’ll often find the less you adjust your power the easier your approach is and when you do need to make adjustments they’ll be more accurate.
“Avoid churning butter with the power”
See if that helps. Also PA28 has the glide ratio of a retarded brick, so if your power gets too low you’re gonna end up low faster than a high wing Cessna type.
bhalter80@reddit
It feels like you're either recognizing that you're low late or you're recognizing the trend late. When you notice the aiming point starting to move up in the windshield of the papi go from 4 -> 3 -> 2 white you should be starting to add power or increase pitch (and trim) to reduce the descent rate.
By the time you're noticing 1900RPM isn't enough because you're in the region of reverse command and have a TON of drag from the flaps.
The flight profile is a guideline not a recipe, when I teach in the Baron we fly 95 on short final and the profile is:
Notice that the last 2 intervals are solving for performance not the other way around
jtyson1991@reddit
150 on downwind? Wow
bhalter80@reddit
it depends if you were just descending or not.. If you've been level for a while its probably 140 but ya it takes a think
GryphonGuitar@reddit
Fly a smaller pattern and for goodness sake, pitch for speed and power for glide slope.
Th3Man0nTh3M00n@reddit
Fly higher and faster
CessnaBandit@reddit
From what I’m reading here you really need some hours with an instructor. Pitch/Power/Airspeed shouldn’t be something you’re having difficulty understanding and this is basic stuff that should be well understood before a first solo
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
What im instructor told today is come on glide slope first ( pitch up ) and maintain airspeed with power
___CallmeaNord___@reddit
You need to read up on “Region of Reverse Command” also known as as being “Behind the Power Curve”. I’d recommend this article to start https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/november/pilot/proficiency-behind-the-power-curve
madvlad666@reddit
Read and think about wind gradient.
Flying into a headwind on final, you get less headwind as you descend closer to the ground (where the wind drops off) so your airspeed drops too, even though you didn’t change anything, and everything was initially fine when you turned final. The more the headwind, the more pronounced the effect.
I’m not saying that’s the only thing, but it sounds like something you might be overlooking.
flightist@reddit
…that is not how this works.
A gradual loss of hw comp - while “doing nothing” except holding IAS - will increase your GS and decrease your descent gradient.
madvlad666@reddit
Well…increasing GS to hold IAS will require accelerating the airplane, won’t it? That’s hardly nothing. And who says the headwind loss is always gradual?
flightist@reddit
No. You fly through air, nothing in the airplane cares about the ground. If the air slows down, and you do nothing, you speed up over the ground. A headwind has no influence on your airspeed while you’re airborne.
Yeah, OP is a victim of decreasing performance shear precisely low enough that the excess power following the transition never takes effect. On every single landing.
Pitch for speed, don’t touch the throttle and 10 seconds later you’ll clearly be high.
I can’t really believe I’m explaining this to somebody who’s supposedly a flight instructor.
madvlad666@reddit
Yes, but please put aside the sarcasm. Look what he wrote.
He’s saying he’s doing the opposite: trying to pitch up instead of down, so losing airspeed and flying even further down the power curve, which means losing even more performance. If he instead pitched down (to accelerate the GS) and maintain airspeed he’d indeed be better off a few seconds later, exactly as you say for the exact reason you say.
And eventually he digs himself out with excess power and lands flat. It’s a baby version of wind shear exactly
Why every approach? Same day, same headwind, same runway, same mechanical turbulence, same boundary layer thickness, same loss of a couple knots airspeed at roughly the same height of a couple hundred feet. Just enough to break those magic numbers somebody gave him.
doinsomeflyin@reddit
No, do nothing ant the IAS remains the same. HW comes off and ground speed goes up. You’ve still done nothing so descending at same rate. Decreased decent gradient because increased ground speed
External_Upstairs572@reddit
Something to consider….
What to Correct First: Airspeed or Glide Slope? • Airspeed comes first. If you’re low and slow, add power and adjust pitch to regain your target approach speed before worrying about the glide path. • Once airspeed is correct, use small power adjustments to correct your glide path. If you’re low but on speed, simply add power to climb back to the glide slope; if you’re high, reduce power….
Good Luck✈️
External_Upstairs572@reddit
You’re experiencing a classic issue: correcting a low glide path with pitch alone causes airspeed to drop, which makes you sink even more and get lower, especially if power isn’t added promptly. This is because in most light aircraft, pitch primarily controls airspeed and power primarily controls your position on the glide slope…
Shuttle_Tydirium1319@reddit
If you’re a student, ask the person sitting next to you. If you aren’t a student: who was your DPE? I’ve got a checkride to schedule.
GoldenKoala100@reddit
If you know what is going to happen, take action (in this case add power) before you the issue ever happens. In other words stay ahead of the plane
voretaq7@reddit
It's an old saw, but "Pitch for airspeed. Power for altitude."
If you're sinking too fast add power and hold your airspeed (do whatever you need to with the yoke to make this happen). You should stop sinking.
Eventually the simultaneous manipulation of both controls (power and pitch) to make the airplane do what the hell you want it to will be instinctive.
If you're having trouble with the basics of controling your rate of descent I would take an afternoon and try doing targeted climbs and descents (VFR) at altitude (find some convenient ground references - roads work well. Start your descent when you cross the first and plan to end it when you cross the second. You can figure the angle of the descent to match a normal glide slope based on the altitude you want to lose and the distance between your reference points (it's that high school trigonometry you swore you'd never need in the real world).
You can even do that under the hood with a safety pilot or instructor.
Give it more if you need to. Firewall the damn throttle if you have to (but if you have to do that your approach is probably fucked and you should abandon it - you can always try again unless the fuel tank is empty).
The airplane is a machine with one job: To do whatever the hell you goddamn tell it to Right Fucking Now. - If it doesn't do it's job don't hesitate to remind it who is in charge here.
. . . Guidelines.
The recommended settings are guidelines: If the airplane isn't doing what you need it to do give it the control inputs required to achieve the desired outcome.
Every plane is different, every approach is different, every day is different. Correct the aircraft's descent early, when you see the needle wiggling in a way you don't like.
If you really want to get fancy you can calculate how many feet per minute descent you need to stay on the glide slope and try to pin your VSI at that number. While ordinarily one of the least helpful instruments in the panel it's a useful cue here!
(The descent rate required actually varies with groundspeed but somewhere between 400 and 500 feet per minute will usually do the job unless you have a crazy headwind.)
NationalReading3921@reddit
Power then pitch OP!
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
Power to get up ( or atleast stay on same level and then pitch to increase airspeed) am i right?
NationalReading3921@reddit
Another way to think of this for a given configuration, the airplane will maintain whatever speed it’s trimmed for, or at least we’ll try to maintain that speed with some oscillations if you mess with the power.
So if you have the airplane trimmed for hands off flying at your desired speed, you can use the power to control the descent rate and then make very tiny pitch inputs to dampen out any oscillations.
I tend to fly the trim for airspeed on an ILS, but I don’t recommend that technique at least not until you have a much better grasp of what’s going on.
NationalReading3921@reddit
An airplane climbs due to excess thrust. In this case, in order to get excess thrust, you have to open the throttle.
We always pitch for air speed we want and we always power for the climb or descent we want.
If you’re low on GS, add power and then pitch as needed to maintain desired speed.
Pitch for speed, power for climb or descent rate.
ACS standard for precision approaches KIAS +/- 10. We pitch for constant airspeed and adjust power for descent rate.
The pitch change should happen immediately following the power change, they’re almost simultaneous.
ltcterry@reddit
Fly closer on downwind. “45” will happen sooner.
When you fly a larger pattern you are flying further. This means you are descending longer which puts you too low.
The script/math only works if you start in the right spot.
A good landing starts with a good pattern.
If you don’t want to fly closer on downwind then delay initiation of the descent.
If you are low, add enough power to stop the descent until you are back on glide slope. Not just enough to make it, but enough to get back where you belong. Then counter correct to descent power.
From a modern Navy flight training manual - “every correction requires a counter correction.”
usmcmech@reddit
but my instructor learned to fly at Riddale.
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
My pattern looks good tbh and even my base is not wide (but sometimes tower promts me to turn base.. i delay my base due to cessna )
usmcmech@reddit
You just said it wasn’t. If you are low and slow consistently then your pattern is too wide/long. Make a change.
Flying a Cessna has nothing to do with it.
ansonchappell@reddit
Your RPM figures are probably for sea level. You'll need more power.
Ambitious_Bee9564@reddit
My god, stop flying the airplane like a damn robot. Learn how to aviation instead of regurgitate meaningless numbers. Be a fuckin pilot, not a mindless AI bot.
TheHidingGoSeeker@reddit
“Pitch for speed, power for altitude”
No-Community-5830@reddit (OP)
We use papi and a towered airport…
shanihb@reddit
What are you using for glideslope guidance? A VASI is set for 3 degrees, which may not be appropriate for a pa28. At a nontowered airport, if you want to make the runway after an engine failure from anywhere in the pattern, you need to stay close and descend on final at a steeper angle. The key is to fly a stabilized approach, not to be a slave to a shallow glideslope.
gc_DataNerd@reddit
Power then pitch when landing
Low_Sky_49@reddit
The recommended power settings and speeds for the pattern are a starting point. If you are consistently coming up short on energy before reaching the touchdown point, you need to use more power in descent, or (more likely) fly a shorter path to the runway for the same power.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Lots of good advice here already, but you should also figure out why you're constantly low. Perhaps you're turning base too late? You should do so when you're about a 45 degree angle from your aiming point. Try turning base earlier.
__joel_t@reddit
Use power to manage your total energy, use pitch to distribute that energy between airspeed (kinetic energy) and altitude (potential energy). Go read the Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 4, Energy Management.
If you're low (too little potential energy) but at the right airspeed (the right kinetic energy), you have too little total (kinetic + potential) energy. You need to add power to add energy, while using your pitch to ensure that that energy goes to potential energy (altitude) while maintaining the right amount of kinetic energy (airspeed).
balsadust@reddit
Pitch/trim for airspeed power for glide path. If you get low, just add power
CaptainTomTexas@reddit
Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. Always. I always have my students pull back power to what’s recommended per the aircraft and pitch for speed. Then we can use throttle to adjust for altitude if need be. Typically the needed correction becomes apparent when we turn base or final. Another thing to consider is perhaps turning base sooner if you’re consistently low.
One thing with pattern profiles, they’re not always 100%. They get you in the ballpark, but you need to know how to adapt for different conditions to get bang on glide and speed.
themeatspin@reddit
If you adjust pitch you have to adjust power, that’s what it’s called pitch-power relationship!
Try carrying a little bit more power, maybe add ~50rpm.
The numbers you are flying aren’t hard and fast, they are starting numbers. If you find they don’t work, then adjust. There might be other things in play here, such as what is your field elevation, hot hot is it, etc.
indecisivepansexual@reddit
Your first correction should be power, not pitch. Trainers on final approach to land are in slow flight aka the region of reverse command. There will be minor pitch adjustments in addition to the power change of course but that’s not the primary method you should be using.
Masterofnonn@reddit
add power sooner
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey everyone, I’m currently facing a consistent issue during my landings. I almost always end up low on the glide slope. When I try to correct by adjusting pitch, my airspeed drops, the aircraft starts to sink a bit more, and I end up even lower. I do add power (around 1900 RPM), but by then, it’s usually too late to stabilize the approach. Because of this, I don’t get enough time to flare properly and I often land flat.
According to our AOM, the recommended settings are: • Abeam touchdown: 1600 RPM, flaps 10°, pitch -2°, airspeed 90 KIAS • Base: 1600 RPM, flaps 25°, pitch -2°, airspeed 76 KIAS • Final: 1600 RPM, flaps 40°, pitch -2°, airspeed 66 KIAS
I try to follow this profile closely, but I still end up low, and minor pitch corrections don’t seem to help much. Any advice on how to better manage my glide path and keep the approach stabilized would be really appreciated. Like i should correct for airspeed first or glide slope first im confused…Thanks!
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