The answer is worse than the question….
Posted by mgb1980@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 62 comments
Got asked today to provide a justification to a vendor to get a license for an on-premises system migrated to a new local server, rather than migrate to their cloud product
I told our “account manager”: I’m trying to decide whether to provide an honest answer, or a diplomatic one.
What is this “change management” people speak of in hushed whispers by dusty water coolers…..
Pombolina@reddit
I'm sorry, but we have high uptime requirements. We cannot risk that with your OaaS offering (outage as a service)
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
We already have AT&T as our contracted OaaS provider at multiple sites.
OkBaconBurger@reddit
I reached out to a higher up. I said “this guy is being obtuse. I need them to help me make a decision and just do the thing I asked for” and instead asked if I can say something or not. He collected the info and it magically resolved itself by that afternoon. That’s a good one.
I can be diplomatic but i tend to fall into old patterns from a less than graceful time of my life when the right buttons are pressed.
vermyx@reddit
I couldn’t tell you. My role was on the infrastructure/code side and was involved for level of effort and potential issues surrounding this. I just heard the end results.
The_NorthernLight@reddit
I just wouldn’t tell them. Ever. “Its my job to know our business, not yours. This is what i need, please provide a quote. If you are incapable or unwilling to provide, I am happy to switch to your competitors. Thank you!”
akastormseeker@reddit
As I tell my wife all the time, when the kids ask "why?", it's not because they actually care about the reason, it's because they're looking for something to argue with. You give a reason, you give a foothold for an argument.
pdp10@reddit
True, but consider what kind of person you want to be. We have some principals that won't discuss why they want something, to avoid giving us any leverage to argue that alternatives are better.
akastormseeker@reddit
Hmm... I see you are trying to lawyer me into a corner with the way you worded that question, completely ignoring the fact that there are other options out there.
If they come to me and say "I think we should do it differently because X", I have no problems listening and considering. Give me an alternative and why it's better. What I don't approve of is defaulting to asking why rather than doing as asked. What I tell them is if they want to know why, we can talk afterwards. But asking why before doing is just delaying or grasping for leverage to not do it. Guess what? They have never once come back afterwards to ask why. There have, on the other hand, been many instances where explaining why beforehand has led to nit-picky word twisting until the original thing has been forgotten and emotions are high.
Caldazar22@reddit
The business decision has been made; you don’t need to justify anything. So don’t. Explaining yourself implies you have something that you need prove, and that’s not the case.
“This is the solution we have chosen; please provide a quote. Thank you.”
Less is more.
J2E1@reddit
Funny how Broadcom will just tell you no, I won't sell you that product, even though we sell it to other people, but because we think you're in a different category, you can't purchase a product. Unrelated to this in particular, just still keeps chapping my a$$.
The_NorthernLight@reddit
Yeah, thats why i dropped vmware and all broadcom products years ago.
jimicus@reddit
Unless you have authority and a plan to switch to something else, that's asking for trouble.
The_NorthernLight@reddit
I’ve literally had this scenario a few times in my career, and the Jr sales reps never push against this approach. A sale is worth more then pushing a specific sale. If they try and go around me, they find out that they cant.
Sinister_Nibs@reddit
Push back, and you will find yourself blacklisted. Emails won’t be delivered, phone calls will not connect.
visibleunderwater_-1@reddit
Yeah, go around me all you want. Even if my direct boss allowed something like this, when I do my quarterly reports to various regulatory agencies those don't "go through him" first. If he OK'd a cloud product that was scoped per DFARs and non-compliant, he 100% knows I always have proof that the "risk assessment was over-ruled" and pages of very specific "why this is bad". So when the fines come down, it's SWIM in the sling.
Luckily, he's not like that at all. I often have to give him lengthy explanations, but that is more so he can show that to other people. Often he'll dumb it down for them, then if they whine, break out whatever esoteric NIST manual I referenced...he really tries to keep me out of those meetings. I'm brought in as punishment, so you can learn all about RFC 8446, or that your vendor you want doesn't support FIPS encryption and won't even run on our servers...
Sinister_Nibs@reddit
Why?
sryan2k1@reddit
Yeah that's when the sales people go around you and tell your leadership you're being difficult and wont get them the info they need for the solution your bosses want.
The_NorthernLight@reddit
Its funny when they try, and find out I AM the boss. That usually puts that fire out pretty quickly. Also, If i ever ran into this, id go to my boss and report the whole thing anyway, with an alternative solution. Always have a solution before you report a problem.
itishowitisanditbad@reddit
"Because thats what I fucking want you dirty shitter"
Provide justification TO a vendor? Fuck offffffffff
badaz06@reddit
I would ask why they need the justification and put the onus on them. You've made a request, they can fulfill it or not.
Quietech@reddit
"The cloud product does not meet our internal needs at this time. It will be kept in mind should that change in the future. Thank you for trying to upsell me and hold our data ransom, you cuck".
Maybe leave the last part off.
vermyx@reddit
I used to work for a medical IT company that did ordering and resulting software for labs. A clinic (our client's client) asked for their data because it was "their data". Our legal and our client's legal had to research this. The conclusion was that it is the client's data, and by law we had to provide a way for them to get a copy of the data, but there was nothing that said we (saas provider) couldn't charge both clinic and lab for this and the lab couldn't charge the clinic for providing the data. This was 20ish years ago so I get the sentiment.
badaz06@reddit
There is a reasonable fee that a business can charge, but it's not excessive. I believe the Fed regulates that fee.
pppjurac@reddit
And if in England, use "sod off, you wankers"
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
I like the last part.
There is HISTORY with this vendor.
battmain@reddit
Lol, the sad part is some are so pushy, they seem to forget the history. I get it, everybody needs to eat but geez, sometimes they teeter on being blocked and sent permanently to the junk folder, especially when advised a project has been cancelled. They were copied on the cancellation message along with the license cancellation.
BBO1007@reddit
I’d start with the last part and wait for a rebuttal.
SecretlyCrayon@reddit
I'M DYING
zakabog@reddit
"I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you're on-prem offering was going EoL, if we're unable to purchase on-prem licensing we'll need to switch vendors, thank you for your time."
visibleunderwater_-1@reddit
Oh, so you have a FedRAMP CSO, and can provide a CMMC responsibility matrix? You can't? Well...you aren't trying to endanger our national security and critical infrastructure, are you? ARE YOU?
Darkace911@reddit
Who is your FedRAMP Sponsoring Agency by the way. Also, we have DFARS flowdowns and ITAR requirements that we would like to sign as well.
pdp10@reddit
"Be nice, or I'll replace you with a very small shell script."
Sometimes -- not often, but sometimes -- it's possible to replace boatanchorware with a very small shell script. A bit over half of the time, the very small shell script will actually
curlout to a REST API, but we don't count the part that's running on Other People's PCs.BoltActionRifleman@reddit
At most, a vendor could ask “May I ask why you prefer to remain on-prem?”. Outright asking you for a justification is going far beyond the limits of a vendor-customer relationship.
ITguydoingITthings@reddit
That's the point to turn it back on them with questions, and lead them to the answers of control of data and control of the infrastructure/performance. Even funnier to mix in some references to other parts of the world, like, "Would the solution you're pushing be GDPR if we had an office in Europe?" and if they claim yes, asking how they comply with the various principles (to call them out for really no knowing).
SilenceEstAureum@reddit
Something along the lines of:
-Their cloud-based product doesn't meet the needs of your org
-It's too expensive
-Org policies require this type of service/data to be maintained on-prem
-The vendor doesn't have a solid history with their cloud system
-On-prem is still supported (hopefully) and you don't fucking want to use their cloud-based system
If you really want to do this on easy-mode (aka lazy mode for me), you could always tell ChatGPT to write up a justification and be diplomatic and then edit the output as needed.
visibleunderwater_-1@reddit
Use Grok, tell it to be extra spicy and mean.
Drew707@reddit
I fed GPT this thread and got some bangers....
ITguydoingITthings@reddit
My favorite. Not because I like it, but because it's all buzzword-y, and because of that, kinda vague.
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
These truly spark joy
SilenceEstAureum@reddit
Gonna have to make this two replies but this reminds me so much of those old Google vs Bing memes
SilenceEstAureum@reddit
SilenceEstAureum@reddit
It’s beautiful.
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
I have both answers ready to go in drafts. Seeing how I feel tomorrow
LCLORD@reddit
I‘m getting sick of this „cloud only“ shit… holy cow they really think we‘re running air gapped / or within black site just for the fun and giggles
On Monday I asked a sales representative to requote a subscription for a special software we‘re using. I especially highlighted that I can’t fathom why our old quotation was significantly pricier than stated on the official website. Well I got the new quotation yesterday stating that since we specifically asked for floating licenses with an on prem licensing service they’re oc more expensive bc the prices on the website are for their cloud only bs. The quotation also stated that this will be the last time this kind of licensing will be available at all bc they will discontinue it and move forward to cloud only…
I gladly answered the according sales representative that this subscription will then be our last, their management should really reevaluate this decision and better recheck their customer base too.
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
We sent our cloud security questionnaire to another vendor who decided to discontinue their client/server product for cloud only (it’s always current, no installation concerns blah blah) and it came back with no/unsure for every question that mentioned compliance or even awareness of any standard. Like you example, it’s raw data that would mean next to nothing and have no value to anyone else, but it’s the principle.
Like the solar farm industry, it’s still seems that so many cloud software vendors think it’s the Wild West. At least you could buy opium over the counter in the Wild West, and demand satisfaction from such scoundrels.
sryan2k1@reddit
Seems like a super normal request. They want to know why their customers are going with various options, and it gives them the ability to educate you on things you might not know about their offerings. Give them the reasoning, without emotion.
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
That I could have handled.
Instead I was told that I had to provide justification as to why they should regenerate a license for our server for products which are paid for, under annual subscription.
RCTID1975@reddit
"Because we paid you" should be more than enough
sryan2k1@reddit
Without knowing a whole lot more details sounds like it's to prevent licensing fraud.
Dissy614@reddit
Sounds exactly like my week. Would be scary if it was the same erp system.
I remained diplomatic until I was cornered in a teams call :/
_araqiel@reddit
…Sage?
Or QuickBooks, they’re both doing the same rent seeking crap.
russellville@reddit
SAGE raised their annual support fee to be basically the same price as they charge to lease their product for a year. Sleazy.
TaliesinWI@reddit
That's what happened to us with MIP. The good news is, that was the push we needed to get that terrible piece of software OUT of our network. File shares have to be read/write Everyone and the SQL server wide open to any connection from the LAN? No thanks! Now it's YOUR ass in a sling if our data gets stolen!
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
I was cornered in a teams call with them once and I told them the actual truth. That was 2x account managers ago though
IMplodeMeGrr@reddit
This isn't a sales call at all, this is a support call for an existing product that you have already paid them to support.
I am reaching out for support on the product we have, I need to migrate to a new server/domain, per our support contract, please provide thd following information.
To my superiors, due to inadequate support for this current product I have begun the process to evaluate alternative solutions in the event they are unable to continue supporting us. If they are unwilling to support us under our current contract I have concerns if we were to move to their cloud solution.
Jayhawker_Pilot@reddit
I told a cloud vendor a while ago. I prefer to pay the per bottle price instead of the per drink price.
I had to explain that one to him. He wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
vi-shift-zz@reddit
Always be professional and diplomatic, you're acting on behalf of your organization. Get confirmation from whoever approves the decision and get your quote. I wouldn't justify my choice, I would get what the org needs. If not through this rep then someone else.
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
Given their history, if I wait a week we’ll have a new account manager.
PlentyAd4851@reddit
Don't suppose their name starts with a K does it?
mgb1980@reddit (OP)
No.
PlentyAd4851@reddit
Was all sounding very familiar
ShortSpinach5484@reddit
Its horrible how big tech is pyssling for their clouds. We arent even aloud to have anything in the cloud and the seller knows this but always try to push for it. Obe time one seller tried to sneak in a cloud license in a onprem license purshase Sorry for bad english