How common are "nationalist liberals " in your country ?
Posted by tipputappi@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 112 comments
To give you an example of what I am talking about . I have a friend who grew up here in Greece and we study at a uni elsewhere ( I am not greek sadly lol) . Her views are kinda all over the place lmao. To start off with she is convinced that one day East thrace and Istanbul would be greek again and some saints predicted that ( her great great grandparents lived in there before ww1 and faced some real stuff so I can honestly understand where she is coming from ) . she is somewhat religious as well . Not remotely like a Magahat though, just the type to say yes I pray at easter and stuff.
she isnt remotely a conservative in general though. She is very much progessive and has zero internalised sexism. she has a very mature take on relationships and how to split chores plus not homophobic or bigoted in any way towards any particular culture ( just slightly aganist Turks but only the turkish ones not central asians )
fairly liberal economically as well and kinda hates far right nutjobs in merica or western europe. I am curious how common are views like this in your country
Hot-Cauliflower5107@reddit
I live in North Macedonia and this is common especially in the younger folks living in the larger cities...sometimes its ridiculous, like believing north Greece is 'ours' and having anti Bulgarian views while at the same having a Bulgarian passport and declaring their ancestry to be Bulgarian in order to get them.
There also more traditional xenophobic, homophobic nationalists which are just hateful, hateful people that are just about against everybody and everything.
idkidkidksiwjwj@reddit
Macedonians wouldn’t need BG passports if BG stopped blocking our entry into the EU… you’re just pathetic
idkidkidksiwjwj@reddit
pick me choose me love me
drgala@reddit
Nationalist is not liberal!
Anyways, there is a very woke country in the Balkans, fished shaped, containing the cities of Bucharest and Cluj.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
How are we woke? Nobody of importance openly supports gay or minorities rights
drgala@reddit
The latest elections were won by a candidate who openly supports rainbow minorities and all the damn country voted against the core family being made out of a man and a woman just a few years back.
Romania is woke, now it will go broke.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
Nicușor openly avoids talking about the subject because he knows it will only cause division and controversy. He never mentioned the issue during the election campaign. Not hating them dosen't mean endorsing them.
drgala@reddit
Actually he did endorse them and they endorsed him.
Heck, they guy is not even married because he hates conservative people.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
When? I know that LGBT people endorsed him because they did not want more discrimination, but Nicușor? I dont recall even tough I followed the campaign pretty closely. Also, I am pretty sure he said he didnt get married yet because he didnt had the time not because he wanted to spite the conservatives and he said in an interview that he definetly plans on doing it when he gets the chance. He is in a long term heterosexual relationship with two kids anyway. He practically is already married. The wedding is just a technicality at this point.
drgala@reddit
You followed just the presidential campaign, but have you followed what Dicusor has done in the last 5 years? Have you followed what he supported openly in the past?
Btw, are the kids his? We don't know. But we do know that he (or is it they/them?) hates the marriage, since it doesn't take more than 10 minutes to do it.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
Bruh... When they did the referendum for gay marriage he opted out because he said that the country had bigger problems. In rest, I only read unfounded suspicions from you. He is not nonbinary. And we have no serios accusations from anybody of infidelity. A piece of paper dosent ensure fidelity. And about the wedding, have you considered that maybe they want more than a 10 minute visit at the city hall to celebrate their relationship? Where does all this suspicion and bad fait come from?
drgala@reddit
Bor, he openly said that marriage is not just between a woman and a man. Where the heck have you been living?
Also, Dicusor approves and supports the "pride" parade, even the city hall donates money to that parade, see official documents.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
Where? Sources
drgala@reddit
Search it yourself rainbow.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
The burden of proof is on the one that makes the claim. Și eu nu te-am insultat. Oricum, ce te face să crezi că sunt pro LGBT? Nu sunt nici pro, nici contra. E o non problemă pentru mine. Singurii care o fac să pară mai mare decât este sunt ăia woke și ăia care vor să se întoarcă în era lui Ștefan cel Mare. Parcă am uitat toți pe ce lume ne aflăm. Hai mai bine să vorbim despre cum Rusia se apropie de granițele noastre și are intenții expansioniste probabil către Moldova, despre deficitul ăla creat de pensii speciale și de ridicarea în prostie de noi biserici la inițiativa politicienilor (care btw, costă mai mult decât orice paradă și sunt ADEVĂRATA prioritate a guvernului pentru că alea îi promovează pe ei în schimb că „oastea e creștină”, dar needucată) în locul renovării spitalelor, despre sistemul de învățământ deficitar, sărăcia de la sate și legile care nu pot fi aplicate din cauza corupției și a lipsei de resurse etc etc. Vă rog, lăsați americănismele ieftine și discutați despre problemele țării ĂSTEIA! Că e ușor să spui că îți plac/nu îți plac gheii, dar să vorbești de rezolvări pragmatice pentru minusurile grave ale statului român e mai greu.
drgala@reddit
There is no burden of proof, you are the one brainwashed not to believe anything that is against your programming, so search for proofs yourself since you require them.
You are seeing Russians everywhere, that is just another proof that you are brainwashed, and there is no need for a press article about this. You could just go and fight against Russia, but your snowflake rainbow programming forbids you to do that since you might like what the Russians do to you.
Romania is nothing but a woke territory, not even a country, since it got sold to the highest bidder. During the 90s people wanted the Americans to come save us from the Russians (again with the brainwashing) and now most of the people (like you) are sucking up french and German asses.
There is no country Români, it is just a disgusting woke colony who does nothing but sucking up to its oppressors.
As for the current political theater, you voted for a woke president and now you get to enjoy the real him, so shut up and take it rainbow.
vbd71@reddit
That almost elected Mr. George Simion. Woke indeed.
drgala@reddit
Almost? It was a 20% difference, where the heck is that almost?
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
We have nationalists socialists...
XenophonSoulis@reddit
How about radicalised religious nationalist anarchist communists? I've met a few of those, collecting extreme beliefs as if they were infinity stones.
PotentialBat34@reddit
There is a group called Anti-Capitalist Muslims in Turkey. They believe Muhammad advocated for a pre-communist society and very chill with people who are different in their beliefs.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
The bad thing with the extremism collectors in Greece is that they aren't chill with anyone in particular, although they claim to be. Most of all, they aren't chill with anyone who isn't Greek.
vbd71@reddit
r/OnlyInGreece
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
How does that even work?
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Logically it shouldn't. But the main characteristic of all four groups in Greece is how much they love Russia, each for different reasons (including Russia being Orthodox, being a "strong country that doesn't take bullshit from its neighbours", being communist and being America's enemy). This explains a lot.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
WHAT?! This so weird to hear: Romanians are so rusofobic and the more I learn about our history the more I get it. This is what culture shock feels like I suppose
XenophonSoulis@reddit
The thing with Greece is that we haven't suffered from Russia as much as you. I mean, we have suffered, but it was in the 19th century and people forget.
To the Orthodox, Russia has always been the "Blond People that will save us from the oppressors", whoever these (perceived or real) oppressors are. It all started under the Ottomans, when Russia had some opportunistic relationships with Greek people (although only betrayal came from them).
To the nationalists/fascists, do I even need to say anything? They ideology is exactly what Russia is doing right now. Plus the above "Blond People" concept, tying very well into their irredentism.
To the communists, it's still the 1980s and Russia is communist.
To the anarchist, Russia is the enemy of America. That's enough to hate Russia, despite the fact that it is a lot more imperialistic than America. Plus anarchists and communists are often much one and the same in Greece.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
Pls dont turn communist: you will suffer
tipputappi@reddit (OP)
lmao
everestb@reddit
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
XtrmntVNDmnt@reddit
It makes absolutely 0 sense lol.
everestb@reddit
Not sure if you misunderstand or disagree.
What it means is that I think most people that self identity as liberals are actually very quick to go to the extreme right when a very specific topic comes up.
The most common is when they advocate for social safety nets but not fair treatment of immigrants.
CypriotGreek@reddit
As I wrote in the other thread you posted, being a nationalist is not black and white. Our most popular politician, Eleftherios Venizelos, our “ethnarch” was a classical liberal, yet he was a huge Greek nationalist and was the person who brought Greece closest to the “great idea” of Greek reunification with its old imperial territories and capital.
Being a nationalist doesn’t really fall on the left to right political spectrum, you can be a far right nationalist and a far left nationalist. Patriotism of one’s country isn’t necessarily found only on the right. (although to be fair, it is more commonly seen there, so it’s understandable why you’d be surprised)
tipputappi@reddit (OP)
yea I remember you mate , I was looking for non greeks here because I became curious about it .
CypriotGreek@reddit
Hope you find the answers you need 🙏
Zandroe_@reddit
If "far left" means socialism/communism, then, no, you can't be a "far left" nationalist.
Defiant-Activity-945@reddit
Really? Then the Vietkong weren't communists and neither were any communist countries in existence.
Zandroe_@reddit
Well, yes, unironically yes. Stalinists may claim to be communists, but I can claim to be the emperor of the French and we'll see how far that gets me. They've abandoned the basic positions of Marxist communism in favour of warmed-over 19th century social democracy (now with more guns).
Defiant-Activity-945@reddit
The principal concept of communism is the evolution of individual agency, meaning human rights and Liberty especially in the economic sense, given that Stalin what's the one to totally eradicate private property since 1929 in the Soviet Union the preliminary system installed by Lenin, he was the one to actually install the Communist system in full. A system where the individual is under the collective ownership of the totalitarian government which bars in the right to property and the freedom of socioeconomic and evil private existence that is in contrast with the communist system. No one willingly gives up their right to own property and related liberties. There is no such thing as a democratic socialist system it is fundamentally impossible and self paradoxical.
Zandroe_@reddit
The issue is not that Stalinism wasn't democratic, it was in fact the most democratic ideology ever, as they would constantly remind people. The issue is that it was an ideology, a distorted view of social relations invented in the defence of commodity production and exchange, i.e. of capitalism (which the Stalinists called "socialism").
swanson6666@reddit
Keep in mind that the German Nazi party was “National Socialist.”
I think most Balkan people are “nationalist” and also “social democrat / socialist.”
It doesn’t have to be a bad thing if it doesn’t go crazy like it did in Germany.
Nationalism is in the blood of the Balkans since they had nationalist wars to gain their independence and beak away from the Ottoman Empire. After that, they started fighting with their neighbors.
Zandroe_@reddit
And North Korea is a "Democratic Republic", Zyuganov heads the "Liberal Democratic" Party, and so on...
vbd71@reddit
Zyuganov is a tankie. You probably confuse him with Zhirinovsky (RIP) aka the "Jewish antisemite".
Zandroe_@reddit
Yes, sorry. It's been a while since I've heard either name, honestly, but the LDP is always a great example of how you can call yourself anything you want.
swanson6666@reddit
But the German Nazi Party was truly “National Socialist.”
. - They were “nationalist.” Every one knows that.
Red_Lola_@reddit
Ah yes the common good, except for Jews, Slavs, disabled, gays...
vbd71@reddit
And in the communism common good was for everyone except the class enemy.
Red_Lola_@reddit
Aka the ones who were disabling the ability for common good, which must be the same as racial laws, right?
Zandroe_@reddit
The Nazi government invented the term "privatisation".
vbd71@reddit
Bulgarian nationalists went so far as create a schism in the Orthodox church.
kaubojdzord@reddit
All liberals are nationalists, they just tend to be civic nationalists instead of ethnic ones.
TepleniAl@reddit
How Civic Nationalism is different from Ethnic Nationalisms? I am pretty sure that Nationalism includes always ethnicity.
fizbag@reddit
like country vs ethnicity is the difference
TepleniAl@reddit
It's not possible to love your country without loving your ethnicity.
Defiant-Activity-945@reddit
Not all countries have a national ethnicity. Mine does and it's definitely critical but the likes of us doesn't.
fizbag@reddit
It absolutely is? There's many multi-cultural societies that have strong patriotism/nationalism despite communities from various ethnic background, I can give you a long long list but i think it's self-explanatory.
bostanite@reddit
This is the correct answer. A liberal nationalist will say anyone who feels Greek is Greek and part of the nation, regardless of race or religion. A rightwing nationalist is about race: you need to be Greek by birth, anyone else is not. Rightwing nationalists are kinda shite.
United-Assistant-924@reddit
A teacher of mine unironically used "parent 1" and "parent 2", instead of "father" and "mother",in speech to be more "gender neutral" but simultaneously ranted in class about hearing Arabic and Albanian in the bus because they were "irritating languages".Another (history teacher) said in class that Katsifas deserved to be shot by Albanian police and implied that all Northern Epirot separatists are terrorists,while simultaneously believing that the term "medieval greek history" is wrong because (get this) the term "medieval" implies dark ages, which is accurate for the Western Europe of the time, but not for the ERE, which she believed was always "enlightened". Finally a third teacher (Caucasus Greek descent) firmly believed that Pontic Greeks (and therefore herself) are pure blooded descendants of 7th century b.c colonists and that Albanians are pure descendants of the Illyrians ( a position she said she had proven by comparing the profiles of Illyrian Roman emperors in coins with the profiles of her Albanian students (!!!!!!!!!!!)), but said that she voted for MERA 25 + she had volunteered for a program offered by the Cuban State (and by extention the Cuban communist party).From these three experiences I have concluded that the majority of people in Greece have some "woke" and some "far right" opinion simultaneously.
tipputappi@reddit (OP)
she still sounds like a alright teacher ngl
vllaznia35@reddit
Not saying that Katsifas deserved to be shot but saying that he didn't fuck around is nonsense as well
Aegeansunset12@reddit
It’s not being nationalist it’s being exposed to your neighbors, when I see north Macedonia stealing our history and Albania being ungrateful then what do u expect me to do ? Bulgaria on the other hand took it seriously and moved forward, you never see me writing anything negative about our relations with them bcs there’s no reason to shit on smn that does effort to fix bad pretexts. I’m pro lgbt and women rights too btw
fuckingmacedonian@reddit
It's ok to say you're a nationalist.
Aegeansunset12@reddit
I mean if you’re able to say you’re an ancient Macedonian who speaks Bulgarian
fuckingmacedonian@reddit
I'm a Macedonian who speaks Macedonian and nothing you say will change that. Now, since you're unraveling, just admit to yourself that you're a nationalist and move on. Why waste nerves on things none of us will change?
Aegeansunset12@reddit
I do think you’re Macedonian only because you come from the broader region, there’s also a part of Macedonia in Bulgaria and Greece. Your culture has no connection to the ancient Macedonia. And your language is not Macedonian but Bulgarian as far as I know but you can keep coping.
Fear_mor@reddit
It’s not Bulgarian, Macedonian is halfway between Bulgarian and Serbian but is very much neither, trust me as someone who speaks Serbo-Croatian. Macedonian people I can actually understand, Bulgarians less so by a decent margin. And respectfully, I think it’s dramatically overstated the amount of Macedonians who think Alexander the Great literally spoke the Slavic Macedonian language
Dobri_Valov@reddit
Well, it's not really halfway due to the fact that Macedonian, together with Bulgarian, is part of the Eastern South Slavic dialect continuum which means it's undoubtedly closer to Bulgarian. Although I do think that the official Macedonian language should be recognized as a separate entity because not only does it have a different alphabet, but Bulgaria doesn't have control over its development, the Macedonians do so they should be the ones to name it.
vbd71@reddit
Yes, but I'm not sure that Greeks are okay with the language called just "Macedonian". In fact, I'm slightly surprised that Greece didn't veto them asking to rename their language to "Slavomacedonian" or smth.
Dobri_Valov@reddit
I'm pretty sure that with the Prespa agreement Greece acknowledged their right to use the term "Macedonian" to name their identity and language.
markohf12@reddit
Yes it does, although it's so little, not worth calling it out.
Well, you are about to learn something new.
tipputappi@reddit (OP)
what should albania be grateful for though ?
Aegeansunset12@reddit
We literally hosted 1/4th of their country or smithing and all they do is great Albania signs that push against all of their neighbors territory. Very unlikable behavior
Krastakraus@reddit
“Hosted” is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Aegeansunset12@reddit
Exactly the mentality I described :)
Krastakraus@reddit
The Greek police and army were hunting these Albanians you “hosted” throughout the 90s. The people who “hosted” these Albanians were business owners looking for cheap labor while using the threat of arrest to suppress any attempt from these workers to improve their condition. If you are such good host how come Albanians who have been living in Greece for decades don’t any political representation? Humble yourself. He who truly loves his country recognizes the wrongs it has done.
Aegeansunset12@reddit
What political representation u mean ? A party made of immigrants who have no citizenship yet ? As for friction between locals and immigrants it would help if crime didn’t skyrocket
tiranazero@reddit
Aegeansunset12 ... gets battered every time he posts ... Aegeansunset12 gets batteeeeered every time he posts .. every time he posts.
Aegeansunset12@reddit
Someone’s triggered I don’t give a sh*t of great Albania
tiranazero@reddit
You were more parasite than host tzatzikis ..but let us rejoice the 90s are over.. now get on your scooter and deliver those frappes re file
CypriotGreek@reddit
670.000 Albanians out of their 3 million (at the time) population.
So around 25% of the Albanian population left and lived in Greece,
LionT09@reddit
Ungrateful and following Erdogans orders? Bro, please explain this 🤣
Aegeansunset12@reddit
We made an agreement years ago for our eez and after Türkiye demanded it they took it back in the most mafia way possible. Also in Kosovo they build the Balkan’s largest mosque as we speak.
Effective_Bluejay_13@reddit
wait what's eez? Genuine question
Aegeansunset12@reddit
Exclusive economic zone
Effective_Bluejay_13@reddit
I think it is way more complex than that lol, but yes Turkiye has some sorts of influence on Albanian politics, the same way as Greece, Serbia and Italy do. It is a 15 years old issue for some 6-12 km of maritime border man. At this point I believe it is just gonna be used as political leverage for Albanian EU accession (not gonna happen in the near future, unless our glorious leader corrupts half of EU) in exchange for Greece' support. I definitely think there's more important issues to discuss that do affect the people of our countries. That is a topic for another day. However, to say that Albania is ungrateful, from our perspective sounds insane ngl. It looks like the exact opposite from up here lol. Oh well I'm an optimist anyway and imagine a future where all these problems are resolved and our grandchildren are more prosperous and in peace.
vllaznia35@reddit
Oh it's this idiot again. We owe you nothing and we don't follow Erdogan's orders
Aegeansunset12@reddit
Talk to my hand Illyrian
phil_shah_iran@reddit
Alexander the Great has no connection to modern day Greece or north Macedonia. Such a stupid argument.
Demosthenes called Phillip ii of Macedon "Not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia,whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave".
Aegeansunset12@reddit
I’m not gonna prove that we’re not elephants.
TepleniAl@reddit
Since you speak about Balkans my parents are from Albania.In Albania the society tend to be more much conservative about the relationships between the two genders (for example cohabitation before marriage doesn't recognized by the Albanian laws and is not tolerant by the society) and social norms tend to be very conservative on social issues as you can see in the barometer from 2024: https://euronews.al/en/barometer-tolerance-towards-lgbt-in-albania/ .At the same time the society is also very nationalist but i don't know if the nationalism of the society make Albanian society social conservative or it's the opposite.What i am saying is that there is no really such thing as "liberal nationalist" in Albania.
Zandroe_@reddit
I think it would be easier to list Croatian liberals who aren't nationalists. Um... bro Pusić and Goldstein? Maybe?
vbd71@reddit
Goldstein? In Croatia? I'm in a loss of words.
vllaznia35@reddit
Goldstein, not nationalist
Puzzleheaded_Sir903@reddit
I think Drašković in Serbia is closest to "nationalist liberals"-he's pro-Chetnik, royalist, pro-EU, pro-NATO, loves America.
He says how Americans accepted Chetniks after WW2, and Truman gave medal to Draža.
HetmanBriukhovenko@reddit
Most of our nationalists are like that, from my experience the most socially conservative people I met and knew tended to be russophile.
DimGenn2@reddit
ivanp359@reddit
That’s very common, actually. They are not exclusive
Albon123@reddit
They tend to be more pro-EU and identify with a broader “European identity” than really being strongly Hungarian nationalists. This is changing a bit with the emergence of Tisza, but I’d say young liberals don’t care too much about the Hungarian identity.
Although nowadays, there is also some far-right presence which wants to hijack this European identity by pretending to care about a broader European goal by essentially their “European = white, other cultures are inferior” nonsense. But they luckily haven’t penetrated our society yet, plus everyone knows that they are secretly pro-Russia nutjobs anyways.
Jupiter131@reddit
"Her views are kinda all over the place" That kinda describes me. I have always found it difficult to identify with any particular idealogy. There are some issues that I agree on with liberals and some with conservatives.
FitDeal325@reddit
Party that just delivered the prime minister in my country (Belgium)
dodekaperisdodeka@reddit
''The saints have predicted that" is crazy
goldfaust@reddit
more and more
PlamenIB@reddit
I am gay and I don’t like some of our neighbors but I don’t think nationalist. I am just mean
AST360@reddit
We have a great amount of secular nationalists amongst the youth. A relatively miniscule fraction of them are Ittihadists, more religious and have imperialist thoughts (like your Greek friend) while the overwhelming majority of them are more alike old-school kemalists. They are sensitive to secular, kemalist and "Turkish" notion of Turkey, they mainly emerged as a reaction to Syrian influx, increased tariqa presence in politics, increased anti-kemalist behaviour and 2013-2015 & 2024-current peace processes. While Ittihadists tend to be more socially conservative, secularists tend to support LGBT and such liberties also warying that PKK-aligned groups hijack their demonstrations.
Weak-Abbreviations15@reddit
Basically most young intellectuals in the region.
myopinion662@reddit
to keep it short, not all nationalists are the same. there is a difference between being a nationalist from an oppressor / coloniser country, and being a nationalist from an oppressed / colonised country. the latter isn’t inherently right wing, as it lends more to values around perseverance, rather than the formers values which tend to revolve around superiority.
-Koltira-@reddit
Basically people who want immigrants because they think that will make their country better. Cursed
TheShroomLord@reddit
Just a glimpse into the 19th century history will show you that liberals can be (and were) pretty nationalist.
stos313@reddit
Ummm well seeing as how she is from a country that was colonized by another, its usually pretty progressive to be against imperialism.
PlamenIB@reddit
Yes! On the photo you can see Kostadin Kostadinov - the leader of the far right party of Vazrajdane (or Revival in English) and Evgeni Minchev- a local self proclaimed diva. On thiy photo they demonstrate exactly what you said. The common ground is the combined IQ equal to the number of my shoes when I was 5yo
AmpovHater@reddit
🖐
AFKE0@reddit
This is fairly common in young people. We call them "Seküler Milliyetçi" (Secular Nationalist) or "Ulusalcı" (different word for nationalist). Some what progressive, irreligious or atheist, social democrat. They usually don't like Ülkücüs (gray wolves), separatist or people from the deserts.