Plane prices going down?
Posted by caelum52@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 106 comments
This time last year I was looking at buying a plane and everything was getting snatched up at crazy prices.
I’ve been looking again for the past month and I’ve noticed listings staying up longer and prices seem to be coming down
This is for entry level planes like 150s, 172s, piper cherokees
Anyone else notice it?
david8840@reddit
I’m still waiting for an air worthy citation for $200k. Then I’ll be happy…
Grokto@reddit
Ran when parked
wayofaway@reddit
Airworthy... On paper. Those clapped out bizjets can be sketch
jawshoeaw@reddit
Airworthy when dropped from 40k feet lol
Bowzy228@reddit
You better be joking
jvasilot@reddit
Just bought a 2009 172SP with G1000 a couple weeks ago. $337k. It needs about $4k worth of work found on the pre-inspection. They were asking $350k. A year ago, the same plane sold for $280k. It is what it is. It’s only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
metalgtr84@reddit
Man for that price I would get a bonanza or a cirrus.
jvasilot@reddit
I’m using it as a trainer to rent out to students and time builders.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
Is that going to be profitable? 337k at 6% (low estimate of rate of return if you had that money in stock market) is $20k, add insurance and other costs the bird would have to be flying 24/7
jvasilot@reddit
We didn’t take out a loan. We paid cash. The plane is at the second busiest Class D airport in the country. We will probably average about 3-4 hours of rental time per day, once up and running.
I went to one of the flight schools at the Delta. The first week, I checked out 3 instructors. They each have 2-3 students, each. Next week I am checking out 3 more instructors. Our block times pale compared to anyone in the area. Based on estimates, even if we do 2 hours per day, the plane pays us back in 5 years.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
no I get that I mean that's the estimated return if you put it in the stock market, as in the opportunity cost of that capital not being deployed elsewhere, but as long as you're getting more than 200 hours in a year then definitely worth it, which based on your calcs should be easily possible. nice investment!
druidjaidan@reddit
If someone has enough liquidity to drop that kinda of cash at will they are either incredibly dumb or they are doing it for diversity with their investments. Or they just want to own a plane and are trying to make the financials work by putting it on a leaseback (though most would use a loan then...)
When I got a lucky and won the startup lottery we considered using a chunk of it to buy/start a small business.It wouldn't likely have made as much as the stock market and we didn't do it, but diversity was the main reason we considered it. We also likely would have enjoyed building a business of our own which is another reason we considered it.
That said if the business of leasebacks really had a 20% cap rate like the poster said everybody would be buying planes. So I suspect his math is pretty flawed. Likely not accounting for expenses correctly and only accounting the gross income.
jvasilot@reddit
Everything is accounted for, even incidentals. Everything for items required by engine hours is worked into each flight hour; fuel, oil, TBO, 100 hour, etc. Other items, like insurance, storage, incidentals, and annual is tied to a daily operating cost. Everything is calculated. It is not difficult to figure out.
Just because it wouldn’t work for you, doesn’t mean it won’t work for someone else. Assuming someone is dumb because of a financial choice they made, without even knowing all the details of the business makes you ignorant for assuming. The fact you can fly 90-95% of the year where we are located, or the fact that we also knew someone else doing the same thing we are doing, and had access to their financials. It makes it an easy decision for us.
druidjaidan@reddit
Well I wish you the best of luck. Leasebacks don't have a good reputation and the horror stories abound, but maybe your situation is the exception. Dumb was a wrong choice of words, I probably should have simply said unrealistic.
I was mostly calling out your 20% cap rate as unrealistic. A 20% cap rate investment would make it one of the best investments possible, especially if you think it's a sure thing. It's entirely realistic that you can make a profit on a leaseback in the right circumstances, it's not realistic that it will pay back $337k in 5 years.
Given the numbers you gave you need to make about $105/hr net (2 hours per day, 365, 5) to hit your 377k number.
A Cessna 172 in AZ (I'm guessing AZ, but it could be FL or probably a few other places that get a ton of flyable weather) rents for about 180-190/hr I'll give you 190.
The schools cut is what? 25% is commonly quoted so $142.50/hr net? Maybe you got a better contract with the school.
Ok so now fuel. 9gph is probably about ballpark for the 180hp 172. $6/gal currently at the D's in the Phoenix metro area (maybe you get discounted fuel perhaps?). $88.5/hr net.
Ok so now maintenance. I've never owned a 172 so maybe this is wrong, but my experience with my own plane says you probably can expect $4k/100hrs or so. Maybe it's less because a 172 is simpler, or maybe it's more because it's a school and students break things. (88.5*100-4000)/100=48.5/hr net. This one is a bit complicated because maintenance is partially fixed (100hr inspection) and partially variable (fixing things). I've rolled them together here, but more hours makes maintenance a bit cheaper per hour.
Ok so ballpark numbers I see your cap rate being 10%, not 20%. Which is close to what I'd expect from a higher risk investment like this. Buuuuttttt we haven't really finished yet.
Engine overhaul fund/depreciation. Engine overhaul of a IO-360 is 30-35k every 2000/hr or so or about $15/hr. $33.5/hr net.
Airframe depreciation. I used aopa vref and found that it approximates that a 172 will lose about $9/hr in value. $24.5/hr.
What about insurance? I have no idea what it costs to insure a 172 used in training. Possibly the school pays this? I doubt it. 1% of hull value/yr is a common value quoted for 172 and a reasonable ballpark figure, though probably low because I suspect commercial operation insurance to be higher than personal. So $3370/yr. At 2hr per day 365 that makes insurance $4.5/hr. So the final net $20/hr.
Now that's a realistic value. You perhaps do a bit better, maybe they give you a 10% fuel discount, or maybe they have a smaller cut for the school. Or maybe the schools maintenance is bunches cheaper with their on staff mechanics. Maybe you're accounting for the plane as a tax deduction and scoring 110k in reduced tax liability.
In the end I would be shocked if you're netting better than $20-40/hr with a cap rate of 5-7%. Which puts it in line with most small business investments. I personally wouldn't sniff at it for less than 10% because flight school demand is highly cyclical, high risk, and with a 20yr payoff technology changes that might change the market entirely get pretty scary. These numbers get a bit friendlier with higher hours (4 hours per day instead of your 2 hours). However, they aren't that much better because the fixed costs (insurance, 100hr inspection) don't represent a significant fraction of the costs and most of the costs are proportional to the hours used.
If I have the math wrong I'd love to know. Investing into a small business has been something I've wanted to do for a while now. And having it being aviation focused would be great. There's nothing wrong with a 5-7% cap rate, that's a pretty reasonable return in the Real Estate business (another market I've looked at). But Aviation feels a lot higher risk, and your $105/hr profit needed to hit a 5 yr payoff seems extremely suspect to me and I hope you did your proper due diligence when coming up with that.
jvasilot@reddit
It’s not a leaseback.
goodatgettingbanned@reddit
I’m not a superstitious person, but I find the 337 price tag suspect.
jvasilot@reddit
Haha. $337.5k, to be exact.
DiamineViolets4Roses@reddit
As a casual observer only, it does seem that way. If we ever get MOSAIC, I’d expect the “new” LSA planes will see a bit of a bump depending what’s actually included in the final rule. Offhand, 150/152 might be an example.
That’s a fair small subset of the market, and a big “if/when”, of course.
BigBlackHungGuy@reddit
Seems that way to me as well. I just need the A36 Bonanzas to come down a bit more and I'll trade up.
jtyson1991@reddit
I saw an A36 that hasn't flown in almost a year. Risky?
phatRV@reddit
Owners of a bonanza are two active CFIs. They rarely fly their bird. Money isn't a problem because they both drive very nice modern cars. The engine develop rust and compression issues because they don't fly it very often. Planes sitting around is risky. Even a couple of laps around the pattern a week get all the fluid circulated. It only costs about 2-3 gallons of 100LL
Acceptable-Wrap4453@reddit
Hangared and pickled? It’ll do just fine.
BonanzA36@reddit
One year doesn’t sound too bad if it was being used frequently leading up to that. Now if that year was in Florida on the coast sitting on the ramp, might be a different story.
JBalloonist@reddit
There was one my club was looking at and originally listed for $420k or so; already dropped to $400 even. Has a lot of hours so that might be scaring people away
CropdustingOMdesk@reddit
I got downvoted into oblivion for stating that this would be the case and a very angry broker told me how wrong I was over several paragraphs
Pilot hiring is slowing, interest rates are high, tech industry lead the wage balloon and has fallen off. Unemployment is slowly ticking up, several real estate markets are crumbling
I’m not sure we’ll see a bad recession but prices have been crazy since COVID. I could see a 20% downturn as flight schools slowly begin scaling back as reality sits in
JohnathanMaravilla@reddit
Same! I made a comment that I was going to wait until prices started to come down and got downvoted and bombarded with comments that they would only go up (or maybe it was in a FB group, can’t remember) anyways, I’ve been saving since a year and a half waiting on this very moment to be able to pick out exactly the bonanza I want. My price drop notifications have been running wild all week from trade-a-plane and the like
Distinct-Standard617@reddit
Price drop notifications? How do you set that up?
CropdustingOMdesk@reddit
Yeah the thread was similar. May have been you!
7w4773r@reddit
Was it mark from skywagons??
druidjaidan@reddit
Is that guy actually on Reddit?? He doesn't strike me as...technologically competent.
0O00OO0OO0O0O00O0O0O@reddit
Mark is a nice guy and an avgeek. He has a small YouTube presence as well.
Funkshow@reddit
There is always a lag as sellers are reluctant to accept market realities. If the market stays soft then prices will come down.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
Very true, brand new Cessna 172 at 600k is not appetizing
johnisom@reddit
Holy cow, $600k for that is highway robbery. Thats approximately 20 brand new Miatas
Funkshow@reddit
Cessna isn't making a whole lot of money at those prices. They probably don't even want to be in the piston airplane business. The volumes are low so there aren't really economies of scale. The insurance costs have to be astronomical.
Fauropitotto@reddit
What are you talking about?
Here's the 2024 GAMA report for sales. : https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/2024ShipmentReport_2025-02-26.pdf
https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/quarterly-shipments-and-billings/
They sold more single prop planes than Diamond did in their entire lineup combined.
Funkshow@reddit
These numbers are peanuts. American GA manufacturers used to produce 10,000+ piston airplanes a year and this went on for a couple of decades. Now they are making 1000+/yr. total for all manufacturers. The numbers aren't even close and the liability insurance costs are substantially higher. Piper makes two airplanes and the are both trainers that go to schools. Beechcraft makes a handle of Bonanzas and Barons a year. You think that the profit is being made on a $600,000 piston airplane of a $25M Citation?
Fauropitotto@reddit
BOTH, otherwise the industry would not continue to manufacture them. The concept of "Loss Leaders" does exist in general aviation. They're all significantly profitable, and must continue to be otherwise the liability and support supply chain would not make it worth continuing it.
No business can continue to manufacture a luxury product if it weren't significantly profitable. They're not running a charity.
Acceptable-Wrap4453@reddit
They’re making money. If they weren’t, they’d go deploy that capital elsewhere and earn 12-15%. No one’s forcing them to build planes. If it wasn’t profitable they wouldn’t do it.
Funkshow@reddit
Exactly, that's why Beech barely makes piston planes, Piper only makes two planes and they both mostly go to schools. They make a little money, not much. The real money is made on Turbine airplanes.
natew314@reddit
Miatas look kind of fun, but the service ceiling is way too low for me.
JediCheese@reddit
The road at Pikes Peak goes to the top at 14,115ft. Good luck getting that on a warm day in a new C172 with a full fuel tank.
spectrumero@reddit
But when you pull back on the wheel of a Miata, nothing happens.
Organic-Principle458@reddit
Pull harder. Loads of adrenaline.
81dank@reddit
But if you buy a 172 you have a great plane. If you buy 20 Miata’s instead, you wish you had a great plane.
DrRob@reddit
Having had two Miatas and flown lots of 172's, gotta give the nod to Mazda on this one
Fine_Development_225@reddit
That’s complete nonsense…you should be ashamed.
DrRob@reddit
I suppose it's true that I haven't tried a 172 vs 20 Miatas. I regret the oversight
autonym@reddit
*Miatas (Apostrophes make nouns possessive, not plural.)
Fauropitotto@reddit
Yo'u shu're abou't t'hat?
RonMexico2005@reddit
Spoken by someone who has obviously never had 20 Miatas.
Excellent-Goat803@reddit
Heyohhh!!
81dank@reddit
🤣
InvestigatorOne2@reddit
Take your COTD, go home, and enjoy the afternoon - signed "in the market for a Cessna" (not a new one though)
81dank@reddit
COTD?
cazzipropri@reddit
[... Taking notes... ]
nixt26@reddit
I own a Miata and this hits hard
OriginalJayVee@reddit
Where’s your Miata?
johnisom@reddit
😭
DudeSchlong@reddit
Will the insurance prices even it out? Seems like it’s a never ending increase for it
jetter23@reddit
Yes, we’re entering a recession. All these idiot boomers went out during Covid and got HELOC loans to buy airplanes, and now they are upside down on both assets as the housing market is crashing out.
I want to buy a Malibu, but I’m willing to wait till Xmas and reassess where we are. Waiting is free.
MasterStream@reddit
Because insurance costs are up up and away....
Tretragram@reddit
I am amazed in the opposite direction. I used to find my plane was a highly depreciating asset. now I find my Turbo Arrow IV having nearly doubled in the last couple years. the key being less than a third of the time used on the engine and avionics people are begging to have.
SnorkyB@reddit
CESSNA 172 NEEDS ANUAL $1.2MILLLION NO LOW BALLS I KNOW WHAT I GOT
caelum52@reddit (OP)
Lmao every other post on trade a plane
jawshoeaw@reddit
Eh I browse daily and there’s plenty of deals. Just not on a cirrus jfc those things are like Ferrari prices
TypeAncient5997@reddit
CLIMES LIKE A HOME SICK ANGLE
Bowzy228@reddit
😂😂😂
flapsnslats98@reddit
Somewhat, if anything they’ve just leveled out. 172’s are still obscene
jabier1@reddit
182s are now becoming obscene as people look for alternatives.
Jrnation8988@reddit
Because some flight school will always be willing to buy it
Bowzy228@reddit
Cessnas sell like hot cakes because they’re good trainers and every flight school wants them. Go for something else if you can. Those prices are ridiculous
known2fail@reddit
Same thing for boats and ATVs. Stock market volatility affects all of these luxury items.
fenuxjde@reddit
Yes, as the economy worsens, fewer people have money for luxury expenses.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
Yeah that’s fair, I just felt there would be more of a lag
fenuxjde@reddit
"Airplane Money" is pretty high up on people's first to go list.
ElPayador@reddit
That’s what she said 🤪
Messyfingers@reddit
Yoloing from your office job into your own time building plane ALSO looks far less appetizing given the slowing hiring market for airlines.
kytulu@reddit
One of the CFIs at my flight school did that, but it is a partnership with a family member, so they plan to keep the plane after he hits his hours anyway.
Luckily, he knows an A&P/IA who is willing to trade MX for flight lessons...
RhinoGuy13@reddit
I've noticed what seems like lower pricing on a few SR22's.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
The market for the piston GA fleet is bifurcated between good examples that have received continuous investments and upgrades, and poor examples which have had most of their equity drained by undercapitalized owners.
The top of the market is going to remain strong. The shortage of quality maintenance labor and the long backlog for good shops has been driving up the premium for aircraft that have already received key upgrades like paint, panel, interior and engine overhauls.
The market will soften from the bottom up. The least-capitalized owners will continue to be driven from airplanes as the costs to maintain these relics continues to rise, and we're reaching a point where many marginal airframes have a negative net value if you consider the immense costs and downtime it will take to restore them to functional and reliable flyers.
As the legacy fleet dies off, the trend for piston GA ownership continues its steady and unfortunate march toward being unapproachable for middle class Americans.
Infamous_Gas7863@reddit
Hopefully
cazzipropri@reddit
Maybe.
I'm buying a plane and I've seen all listings go down, but I can't tell if that's just the regular lifecycle of a listing (e.g., seller asks a lot, then they realize they won't get it, then lowers the ask, etc.).
It might be true that if the economy slows down, people will have less money to buy discretionary and pleasure items. But replacement parts will go up if tariffs apply.
Hard to see which of the two factors will prevail.
EliteEthos@reddit
I have noticed listings staying up but not prices coming down. 172s are laughable as are 150/152s
Fit_Homework532@reddit
You dont think 150s are worth 80k? I saw one for 80k that was advertising "original panel" and I nearly cried.
EliteEthos@reddit
I saw a 152 Aerobat for $119k. I offered $100k. They declined.
Kai-ni@reddit
To be SLIGHTLY fair, aerobats are rarer and in demand. But that's still crazy they declined 😭
EliteEthos@reddit
In the scheme of 150/152 Aerobats, $70-85k I would say is reasonable for those, since regular ones should be far lower. It’s why I offered $100k. But nope… the listing is down now. Not sure if it sold or was taken down.
patrick99009@reddit
That’s crazy for a 152. My buddy’s selling a 150 with extended tips for almost half that and I still think it’s high.
EliteEthos@reddit
Yeah. It’s wild. The only quasi decent deals are on aircraft with damage history or ones with clapped out engines that will need overhaul immediately.
Kai-ni@reddit
Damn my mom bought her POS 150 for 9k. 20 years ago. No I dont think a one fifty is worth 80k, 35-55k
redditburner_5000@reddit
Prices are absolutely are falling.
I am reviewing logs of two 200 series Cessnas right now. The offers will be lower than asking. One of them considerably lower.
It's not just trainers, either. If anything, they'll remain a little higher just because demand is a little higher from schools and time builders.
There are quite a few twins languishing on TAP. Still too high to even attempt an offer in many cases, imo.
What I see as I type this:
182s (60 N, P, and Q on TAP), 210s (53 excluding P series), and 35/36 Bonanzas (>100 V35 and newer + 36/A36, excluding TN/turbo A/turbo B/newer G).
Seems like a lot of inventory is available as (my perception of) the economic landscape softens.
equal2infinity@reddit
A36 inventory has jumped about 50% since last year if I recall correctly. Sellers reluctant to drop prices.
redditburner_5000@reddit
29 A36s in Jan 2024. 53 A36s in May 2025.
Entire Bonanza 33/35/36 TAP inventory (excluding Debonair) was...
...135 planes in Jan 2024.
...217 planes in May 2025.
C182 line (N, P, and Q models)...
...34 planes in Jan 2024.
...60 planes in May 2024.
C172 line (all models)...
...148 planes in Jan 2024.
...198 planes in May 2025.
dont_ama_73@reddit
60 Cessna 182's? That is definitely higher that I remember
redditburner_5000@reddit
Just N, P, and Qs
Over 200 if you include all variants.
PutOptions@reddit
I took a glance at the DA40 (Lycoming) numbers and there is a shed load more inventory than when I bought mine 18mos ago. Prices don't look much different but the inventory is double so... gotta believe they are more negotiable than before.
Kai-ni@reddit
I wish
Infamous-Ad-140@reddit
Less buyers, planes are sitting longer so sellers have to make concessions to move them.
Still 172s are nuts, you can get a similarly or better equipped 182 for the same or less.
Flying_4fun@reddit
I've been looking at trainers daily for the last 2 yrs. My anecdotal experience shows inventory increasing and prices definitely going down. Aircraft in need of panel upgrades and/or engine near or over TBO are falling the fastest. For context, 18 months ago, you could not find a c150 that didn't have a runout engine under $50k. In the last couple of months, I've come across multiple c150s that have mid-time or better engine and vfr panels around $40k. I've even seen c172s with mid-time engines, but in need of panel upgrades around $60-$65k, about $25-$30k reduction from 18months ago. Airplanes with upgraded panels and low time engines are still mostly holding steady, but even they seem more willing to discuss offers.
RexFiller@reddit
For sure in the beechcraft space. I see stupid prices from vref just sit for years then low prices snatched up quick. From that market it's also typically the higher maintenance ones like turbo and P baron that drop first.
skunimatrix@reddit
Noticed the number of listings start to increase a few months ago. Prices hadn’t started to go down but a Cherokee 180 came up for sale locally with hangar as part of the deal at the right price and in great shape. Older gentleman owned it the past 22 years and lost his medical. But there were a number of planes I called on and were sold before I could go look at them. One V-tail here sold sight unseen in a day without a prebuy…
Anthem00@reddit
there are definitely more planes available on the market. It has softened a bit, but I would expect things necessarily to come down. As long as the "replacement cost" of a new plane is so high (600K) - there will be a significant market for used planes. And the market for them is other buyers along with just about every flight school out there. . .
And the parts for pricing is going up - in many sectors significantly. This is regardless of new or used. Tariffs and Private equity are driving parts pricing up significantly. Hartzell which is now owned by PE has been consistently ratcheting pricing up, and they control a lot of sectors like heaters, alternators, starters, etc etc.
flyguy42@reddit
This thread has been going for three years and recently seems to make a convincing case that the market has finally loosened recently (as evidenced by more inventory and prices leveling off), but not much evidence of a broad retraction.
Ok-Technician-2905@reddit
Yes. Also much more inventory on the market.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
This time last year I was looking at buying a plane and everything was getting snatched up at crazy prices.
I’ve been looking again for the past month and I’ve noticed listings staying up longer and prices seem to be coming down
This is for entry level planes like 150s, 172s, piper cherokees
Anyone else notice it?
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.