Do engineers report to PMs?
Posted by Exciting_Agency4614@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 170 comments
Context: My friend is a PM and I asked her if she works with engineers and she responds: 5 engineers report to her.
My thinking was that engineers may rely on PMs to give them work but it’s not a boss vs employee relationship. Am I wrong? Why or why not?
mctCat@reddit
I am PM who is also a dev. I go over the requirements with the lead dev. He assigns tasks to his devs. I go to then sometimes with questions or clarification. I know who has which tasks. But I mainly only work with the lead. I am not his boss, but I do give him work and make sure things are in scope. The lead will come to be with design problems I take to the client for decisions or scope changes. I don’t do performance evaluations on anyone. If there is a quality problem, I bring it to the lead first. I am ultimately responsible for the project time and budget though.
isarockalso@reddit
Alot of PM like to think the team reports to them. They’re usually the terrible ones sad to say.
CarelessPackage1982@reddit
sure, at garbage companies
originalchronoguy@reddit
Usually.......in many orgs:
PMs mange a project. Not people.
Sure, they can assign tasks to a developer as part of a team. But they can't employ punitive measures (PIP/fire) where the EM can. Also, an EM can over-ride what a dev does if there are other fires/priority.
I can tell a dev to ignore picking up work if that makes sense. The a PM would have to negotiate why they need a dev on a task.
There is usually an ORG chart and a dev falls under the EM in that diagram and not under a PM.
gyroda@reddit
Yep, I have a PO deciding the priorities for developing the product, but he's not my boss. I can overrule him on some things and vice versa and there are other things that are just completely independent - neither of us are each other's managers.
android24601@reddit
As it should be. They're roles and nothing else. Each of you fulfill specific duties to get to the finish line.
jatmous@reddit
I mean very often they’ll be super afraid of the PM. The EM is simply there to cushion the violence.
Main-Drag-4975@reddit
In the mid-sized tech startups I worked for the PMs were much closer to the executive team than the EMs were.
Similar ages and experience levels but the PMs would report directly to a product officer or something, regularly called in to work with the executives. EMs would have 1-2 layers between them and the CTO/VPE.
Part of this is that there were more engineers than PMs so there were more layers of management on the engineering side. The other part is that executives of all kinds like getting hands-on with product strategy and generally don’t want to get into technical details.
PushHaunting9916@reddit
Except that pm's are often in organisations which has managers and not engineering managers. And pm's have the ear of the company, being that is their job. As such having issue with a pm, often won't go well for the engineer.
originalchronoguy@reddit
Sure they have insights and ears in the business requirements. Still does not mean they manage an engineer. Management is the ability to approve PTO, assign training, do performance review, recommend promotions, enact disciplinary action. That is what reporting to means.
Developers still work with PM, not report to them. So some PMs have this weird power trip and overstep their boundaries
Both engineering and business have the same goals— to deliver service or a product for the business. The EM ensures there is a trained, qualified resource and can over ride if that resource does not align with the engineering. For example, I want rotation of bug duties so the entire team are not siloed and have full understanding of the codebase. So if a dev is on bug rotation or technical debt, a PM cant come as for that resource for that sprint.
There is that level of checks and balances. Otherwise PMs will do shortcuts ; risking the company. My security and bug posture is just as or more important that trivial features on someone’s pet project. If i deem that to be a pet project. Sure, we will roll up our sleeves when things are in alignment to serve the bigger goals of the company.
Seperation of business and engineering is needed to have checks and balances.
PushHaunting9916@reddit
In your vision, who is guarding those separations? Furthermore in the career ladder what is the next stage for pm's?
originalchronoguy@reddit
Who’s guarding separation.
This is self governing. I have the same interest and objectives of the product team. I want the product developer and release. PM is not training, interviewing or upskilling engineers. I want to ensure we dont have ‘cherry picking’ or the bus factor where only one developer gatekeeps and holds keys to the castle. We have a business continuity we need to be aware of.
Career ladder for PM? I dont know. That is not my domain. But from what I see, they get to manage bigger projects. Their portfolio expands or they get into management where they manage other Project Managers. There is definitely a growth path.
schmidtssss@reddit
Are you developers not assigned to projects? What kind of organization has people negotiating for approved projects?
originalchronoguy@reddit
They are assigned to projects. But on the jira board, there might be 10 stories for UI, 4 for backend API. And a PM assigns Ui work to a backend dev who is not strong in the front end. They come to me and I say, tell the PM you won't pick up those stories.
schmidtssss@reddit
Are you on the project?
KhonMan@reddit
Bro when you’re a manager, if your reports are on the project, you are on the project.
schmidtssss@reddit
Not necessarily, first of all, and second of all what’s their role? There’s a PM and an EM where they are different hierarchies? That’s inefficient af, lol.
KhonMan@reddit
I can explain to you how this all works, but your shit sounds way crazier where you have a guy who reports to you but you aren’t responsible for what he does.
Team lead is also different than being an SDM. But conceptually you should be evaluated on the work that your reports do alongside your own contributions. Someone working on a project where you have no input ought to be the exception, not the norm. It doesn’t matter if you are doing any of the implementation, you still own the allocation of that engineer’s effort.
schmidtssss@reddit
You should be evaluated based on a project you’re tangentially related to simply because someone who reports to you, ultimately, is on the project? Lmao, what?
If I have 10 reports across 4 teams doing different work the detailed output of 2 of them on a project I am not directly involved in is going to be something I’m stepping in on because the managers of that project are my equals? What kind of bizarre organizations are yall running?
KhonMan@reddit
Actually I lied, I will explain a bit more. You have one boss, your SDM. If a PM wants your team to work on a project, they work with the SDM to get resources. The SDM is at least partially accountable for the success of the project because their report is working on it. This also provides motivation for not taking a bunch of random devs from disparate teams and throwing them on the same project.
That’s really all it comes down to.
All those other roles you mentioned may or may not exist (especially PJM). But none of them tell the engineers what to do, they tell them what the expected outcome is, and they work with the SDM on prioritization.
KhonMan@reddit
We work in FAANG companies. I’m not going to explain this to you anymore because you just ignore anything inconvenient to you and make your own bullshit. Suffice to say that this works and is normal.
schmidtssss@reddit
Lmao, what did I ignore?
originalchronoguy@reddit
I am in on the projects by mere fact my report is on the project (s).
Hierachy works like this:
Dev | Business
EM Director | Business Director
EM Manager (me) | Product Owner Manager (tod)
Dev-Billy | Project Manager (emily)
I can tell Billy to work on projects under Robert vs Emily.
If there is a problem with it, emily goes to tod and ask for resources
Tod ask who I can spare. If there is an issue he can escalate to his Business Director to talk to my EM Director.
Billy and Emily are equals. She can't fire Billy. Nor can she approve his PTO. She has no disciplinary action. If Billy doesn't meet deadline, she can bring it up to me. If she gets no answer from me, she can escalate to her boss which then talks to me or escalate to my boss.
There are other EMs who work like leads /architects /staff that also work with Emily to flesh out technical requirements. I can review stories, technical details and tell Emily, I think Mike should work on this as his skills is more aligned than Billy.
schmidtssss@reddit
“I have 8 managers bob”
tcpWalker@reddit
What? Every organization has some measure of this. Initiating projects, pushing back on requests, driving projects, helping others deliver critical projects, lots of this. A team where you don't have some of this means nobody is actually invested in what they're doing IMHO, or else you are micromanaging them in a counterproductive way.
schmidtssss@reddit
“For approved projects”
Wheezy04@reddit
I find that in poorly-managed teams the EM will sometimes just let the PM run the show and it's frustrating.
Imho high level prioritization should be a conversation between the EM and PM to balance tech and product needs and then any direct guidance to the engineering staff should come from the EM alone.
uniquelyavailable@reddit
She should be in frequent communication with a lead engineer. This sounds like chaotic nonsense.
Timely_Note_1904@reddit
If she's telling the truth then that's not a company I would ever want to work for, let's put it that way.
mcmaster-99@reddit
I worked for a company that had a non-technical manager who's job was basically a PM but was in charge of 6 technical engineers. Never doing that to myself again.
easterner1848@reddit
I don’t know how you can be a PM like that without at least SOME technical knowledge.
I was in a PM in charge of like 4 engineers situation myself once. First real job too. I lucked out that she was extremely technologically savvy. She had done a lot of personal studying around architecting healthcare systems and it showed.
Makes a world of difference when your PM actually understands how coding works. Hell my old PM could even do some junior level coding herself.
mcmaster-99@reddit
There are companies that totally allow that. Their job is to basically lead projects on a high level by being the bridge between developers and clients. Anything technical would be discussed with the tech lead. Different structures for different companies.
I just like to be led by technical managers who I can actually learn from and have one person I can talk to for basically anything instead of talking to the non-technical managers who and then having to go to the lead, explain the context and then go into the technical side of things.
It’s just very efficient to have 1 report instead of multiple.
franktronix@reddit
What happened? Everyone is saying this is terrible, but I haven’t experienced it so I’m curious why.
stupid_cat_face@reddit
What do you mean the feature will take 2 months?! It’s just a little change.
tdifen@reddit
I had a CTO that came from HR. Shit was wild.
sendintheotherclowns@reddit
No. Nope. No no no, my condolences.
tdifen@reddit
They were trying to get the regular staff to use drag and drop interfaces to make their own apps. Massive money and time sink.
I swear half the C suite had under the CTO had never written a line of code in their life.
ClearGoal2468@reddit
I once reported to Product as an engineer. Never, ever again.
Little-Bad-8474@reddit
Former TPMs become software development managers all the time at my FAANG. And they suck at it.
achthonictonic@reddit
I've seen 2 reasons why this happens: The TPM was actually an engineer in a former life and they want to go back to it. I've seen this case work when it's a team which was in the TPM's technical domain back when they were an engineer. The second reason is that the TPM was really good on delivering projects and representing the team externally, and got a lot of visibility with leadership. Then a management void happened and a director/VP decided to "give them a chance" -- this is the case that turns into a nightmare.
nigirizushi@reddit
Not just FAANG. It's like that everywhere
Perfect_Papaya_3010@reddit
Yes, but generally he lets us just do our thing and sometimes he wonders about a specific thing, if it's done and in any environment.
But the projects are too big for one PM so he focuses mostly on the projects I don't work at, so in my project if there are no issues we just focus on system improvements. Which is great because we keep upgrade the framework every time we can, and all our libraries are up to date, so we don't have much technical debt
Mr_Resident@reddit
my PM manage the project they just want to make sure is everything is good about the task and they also create the basic specification for project like researching requirement ,also dealing with the UI designer for the design . i just code whatever they want and complaint if it stupid . i also have my own direct manager
heubergen1@reddit
That question sounds weird to me because in my company (>500) every engineer reports to their PM. I don't know how it could work with EM when the PM dictates 100% of your work but wouldn't have any say about you.
botterway@reddit
Does this PM do performance reviews for 500 people? Seems unlikely.
heubergen1@reddit
No, but we also have 50 or so PM (Project Managers) and each of them have between 5-8 people under them. Rest is overhead (finance, hr etc.).
jfcarr@reddit
"And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses"
Often it does end up like Office Space where you have one formal boss and several unofficial bosses. I've found SAFe Agile makes this situation worse since it often adds a Product Owner and a Scrum Master, who usually have a manager/director rank, plus a team lead and/or engineering manager.
PoopsCodeAllTheTime@reddit
It's insane, I get an official boss that wants A, and an unofficial boss that wants something against A, they both blame me for not delivering while keeping both happy. Wtf.
Otherwise_Source_842@reddit
On my team I have a bunch of “bosses” I have to report to. My actual manager, her boss the director, my team lead who is in charge of the b backend api I work on, my product manager for that api, my domain architect. Then my junior devs are semi reporting to me just cause of our mentor/mentee relationship.
One-Program6244@reddit
I've seen places where one engineer delivers a piece of work and 5 other people pat themselves on the back for getting something done.
Alternative-Shape-91@reddit
Dude this comment hit me so freaking hard. I am currently in this exact situation.
todo_code@reddit
Hey! We're just like construction.
-nerdrage-@reddit
Sounds like free money
BitSorcerer@reddit
I too suffer from the multiboss syndrome lol.
loxagos_snake@reddit
This was, until recently, my problem as well working for a huge SAFe organization.
To make matters worse, they also introduced a matrix-like relationship where you belonged in both a delivery unit and an organizational unit. So at any point in time, your bosses would be your line manager, your team leader, the business owner of your project, your local manager and many other people. Luckily, they scrapped that system for a more traditional one.
That being said, I never felt like the SM/PO had any kind of boss-like powers. You are of course expected to work with them, but even I as a developer can override their decisions if I feel like they are interfering with delivery. Luckily the culture is awesome and we never even reach these kinds of situations -- the SMs/POs will always accommodate you, especially if you've proven yourself -- but if push comes to shove, the engineering manager is the final authority.
I can definitely believe that there are some glorified Jira warriors out there who will go on power trips when given the chance, though.
durandall09@reddit
I prefer "Jira Jockey" myself.
But my situation was similar: the PO were actually managers but let the tech leads make the tech decisions.
pragmaticcape@reddit
Did you get the memo?
jfcarr@reddit
Instead of TPS reports, it's now Jira stories.
CaptCrash@reddit
PM, PO, Scum master, technical leads, the person who is least like a boss is an actual manager.
Honestly OP’s question is kinda weird to me. If they’re asking this PM if they work with engineers, I’m wondering if it’s not really an engineering company, or if it’s smaller. In both cases I think that would be fine for the PM to have engineers as direct reports.
tetryds@reddit
Been there. Ouch.
Exotic_eminence@reddit
So you keep these ppl happy but one power tripping new comer with nothing to stop them will leverage their career by stomping on yours and all these so called managers tuck their tails
prettycode@reddit
As her if she write their yearly performance reviews. The answer will be "no", unless she's lying to save face, or working for a truly dysfunction organization that's doomed.
downtownmiami@reddit
PMs are not typically considered people managers. They often participate in management meetings because the decisions they make impact the decisions of people (resource) managers. In my experience, I have never encountered an organization where PMs (whether project or product managers) have direct reports. Instead, they usually collaborate cross functionally with a larger group of people than those who report to traditional people managers.
talldean@reddit
Sometimes, but rarely. I report up through a PM VP, but below that it's all SWE (and former-SWE "Eng Manager") all the way.
But for a line-level manager to be a PM, that one's a bit weird/probably a very small company?
Either-Needleworker9@reddit
By PMc do you mean project manager or product manager?
I’ve never seen engineers report to a project manager, but I have seen organizational structures where engineering indirectly reports to product management. The rationale is that product management is accountable for business outcomes, and should be able to direct cross functional teams to achieve the business outcome.
arekxv@reddit
Some people hear Manager in the title and automatically think it means above others...
No PM does not order developers around. They are on exact same level as developers. Their only job is to ensure project is on track and handle organization around the project itself. If a dev team fails so does the PM.
therdre@reddit
No. Engineers usually report to engineering leads or engineering managers. In newer or smaller teams is possible they may even directly report to a technical director.
I have never seen engineers reporting to PMs. I am an engineering lead nowadays and I have engineers reporting to me. I report to a technical director.
C0git0@reddit
Product Manger or Project Manager?
Dro-Darsha@reddit
This should be the top post
fuckoholic@reddit
Puppet Master
C0git0@reddit
Someone already said People Manager
B_loop92@reddit
Or Prime Minister?
p0st_master@reddit
Or possibly even, the prime manager.
Sent forth to lead projects with precision and balance.
Where budgets falter, bring order. Where deadlines crumble, restore timelines.
Gantt charts are my battlefield. Slack channels, my war council.
From kickoff to deployment, I oversee the mission. From planning to production, I transform chaos into structure.
I do not just manage tasks… I optimize them.
Because in every project… there must be One Prime.
—🛡️ Prime Manager. Roll out.
trippypantsforlife@reddit
You're all wrong, it's Phantom Menace
thermitethrowaway@reddit
I mean that's kinda what Product Managers are.
mattgen88@reddit
Or program manager?
beardfearer@reddit
Plot twist: it’s totally normal - People Manager
pheasant___plucker@reddit
In my experience, no. I would've thought that most devs report to their line manager, or team lead, or tech lead.
j_d_q@reddit
They shouldn't. They manage the project, not the people. They are tasked with getting everyone involved what they need and gauging finances. A PM should never be telling a dev what to do. They're a part of the team at best.
templar4522@reddit
It really depends on the company. Sometimes PMs are also line managers for dev teams, essentially their boss.
It's old school but still very much alive as a practice, especially in big old companies, and especially when their core business is not (just) software.
There are companies that have adopted agile processes and roles but still keep some of their old structure.
Sometimes the PMs are hands-off and let the people work as in any other company, they mainly worry about the budget and the big picture, steering the PO with priorities and dealing with stakeholders, and as a dev you mainly interact with him only to have your time off approved.
Other times are the actual day-to-day slave driver and in charge of everything, in a truly half-assed agile way, he's the PO, the "certified" scrum master and the guy that hires and fires people.
Every company is a world of its own, and titles are just names to make people feel important, they don't really reflect their actual job.
ZealousidealBee8299@reddit
You both need to define what "report" means...
TrickyWookie@reddit
Thank fuck no
HorribleUsername@reddit
This could just be a terminology mismatch. We all report to PMs in some sense, since we report our progress to them.
padetn@reddit
That would be confusing to me. I interpret “reporting to” as “has firing power”.
effectivescarequotes@reddit
In most of the consulting companies I've worked for my manager and my team lead we're different people. Often the team lead works for the client or another consulting company.
Basically, my job is to support the team or person I've been assigned to, so the lead manages my day to day work, and the manager is in charge of my career.
If I did a bad job for the lead, it would probably lead to my firing, but my manager would be the one who made the decision.
It sounds complicated, but for the most part my manager approves my time cards and handles my performance review. It's useful because I have had leads grossly overstep their authority and had the company side with me when my manager agreed.
food52012@reddit
This is my experience as well. Consulting companies tend to have a different structure than product centric and size matters too.
I'm an EM and acting as tech lead on a project, but that is the exception to the rule in my org just because all my directs are pretty much involved in the same project due to the size. But we have others on my team with other EMs as direct supervisors.
belkarbitterleaf@reddit
I've heard the terms "dotted line" report to, and "solid line" report to. Solid line report to has year-end review, raises, firing power, etc. Dotted line report to has more daily activity management. Multiple of my roles have had my daily manager and I both solid line reporting to the same person. IDK. Company structures are inconsistent.
Helpjuice@reddit
It depends on what PM means, are you talking about Program Manager, Project Manager, Product Manager and the type of work e.g., government contracting?
If Program Manager in government contracting, then yes, many engineers, and other types can report directly to the Program Manager as they are normally the ones that hire/fire employees on a contract and they also have the responsibility to track P/L on the contract.
If you are talking about a Project Manager, then no, they normally do not have direct reports, and if they do it is normally other Project Managers. They are there to help organize, setup meetings, and other administrative things. They should not be giving engineers work, but they should be tracking the work in relation to what is going on. Engineers should be setting priority, time it takes, etc. while the PM can do stakeholder management and all the non-engineering related work.
If you are talking about Product Manager, it is plausible but depends on the company.
spam_driod@reddit
In my org, engineers work with PMs and have regular meeting with them to discuss project progress and priorities. But we report to engineering managers.
AccomplishedLeave506@reddit
Bad managers think they're there to tell people what to do. Good managers know they're there to listen to the people they work WITH and remove all impediments to them being able to achieve the shared goal.
Sadly most managers tend to fall into the first category.
dastrn@reddit
I don't have one boss. I have engineering bosses and product bosses. Each is responsible for leading me in different ways.
Ultimately, I have a specific boss that I "report to directly". But the product folks I consider my bosses, at least to some extent. If they wanted me gone, I'd be gone.
Exciting_Agency4614@reddit (OP)
I think this is a feature of yoe. A PM isn’t getting rid of a senior engineer. An entry-level engineer maybe.
anno2376@reddit
Maybe she has an ego problem.
And the want to make her more important than a pm is.
Delicious-Yak-1095@reddit
I feel for them if they do. No dev wants a non-technical manager. And PMs would be the worst.
Any-Woodpecker123@reddit
No. PMs move tickets around and we let them know something if they ask so they can copy the response into an email.
kayakyakr@reddit
Could be getting a different definition of report to. She might have a team size of 5 engineers that deliver her work.
It's uncommon but not unheard of for a PM to be an actual people manager rather than just product.
KhonMan@reddit
I agree, Occams razor says that PM misunderstanding terminology would be the best bet
devneck1@reddit
They might report to her .. which demands she made at the start of the PI that have been descoped because she got greedy, asked for too much and didn't want to listen to what was actually possible to deliver during planning .. especially after all the "must haves" she tried to squeeze in mid-PI.
But no, not likely any of them are direct reports. Exceptions to the rule though, I suppose.
I have a new to the company (weeks) PM, unfamiliar with our stack who has dabbled in jQuery... trying to tell me how long a custom reusable hierarchy of components that I (not my team, literally me) built should take to update with new functionality. I just reported to him that he's wrong and if he wants to schedule some time on my calendar feel free to block off some time and I'll provide a technical breakdown why its not as easy as he thinks. Starting with .. we don't use jQuery
poolpog@reddit
Does PM mean PROJECT manager or PRODUCT manager?
These are two distinctly different roles in many orgs.
Whereas some orgs have one but not the other. And some orgs have neither, or something weird combination of the two.
Engineers often report to PROJECT managers. Engineers usually don't report directly to PRODUCT managers, though engineering usually takes general orders from the product team -- product designs, engineering builds.
ns0@reddit
Project managers are not people managers and don’t know how to manage engineering practices. Developers shouldn’t be reporting to a PM.
planetwords@reddit
Yes it is now common for engineers to report to non-technical managers, such as 'project managers', 'scrum managers', 'sales managers' or other such wankery.
This didn't use to be the case! 10-15 years ago I always reported to a technical manager who was still involved in implementation.
I find it difficult to understand how a non-technical manager with almost NO technical background can possibly understand what I'm really doing as an experienced engineer - even if I explain it in the most eloquent way and have the best communication skills in the world - it will still remain an esoteric role because not everyone has time to devote 30+ years to learning technical things.
Repulsive_Constant90@reddit
I think what she meant was she work “with” 5 engineers. Engineers can’t report to PMs due to the technical perspective of the trade.
serial_crusher@reddit
Varies company to company. Smaller orgs it's more likely to work out this way. You don't really need an engineering manager at a startup with only has 5 engineers. You get a solid tech lead and pair them up with a product manager who knows their boundaries well enough, and you can get some work done.
If you have enough scope that you're breaking things up into multiple product / engineering teams, then you start to need a separate engineering management hierarchy to make sure engineering works consistently and efficiently across teams, make sure time is being devoted to tech debt, etc etc.
Mu5_@reddit
This is the correct answer in my opinion. Had to scroll way too much before finding it.
In small companies where you may be working on a single project/product at a time it is likely that the Project Manager functions as engineering/people/project manager.
When it gets bigger you need to split up these between a team lead (usually both engineering and people manager) and project manager.
If it gets even bigger you may also split between engineering managers (basically taking technical decisions across several projects and setting the requirements for the team) and people managers (handle reviews, all HR related stuff, approve time off and decide how resources should be allocated) while project managers basically handle interaction with customers and other managers to "try" to set deadlines and stuff (I say try because ultimately depending on allocation across different projects where there are different PMs the real deadlines will be influenced by engineering).
ub3rh4x0rz@reddit
Fuck no
bombaytrader@reddit
That will be a big disaster waiting to happen .
jonathanmeeks@reddit
I have worked with PMs who claimed that developers reported to them. They may have believed it, too. But, in reality, it's a dotted line reporting at best.
davy_jones_locket@reddit
... That's kinda weird.
When I was an Engineering Manager, I had 17 direct reports who worked on teams whose product was managed by 3 PMs.
PM was not a people manager role. It was an IC level role. Product Directors were the people management side of product. EMs were essentially Engineering Directors since we had nearly whole domains.
bouncycastletech@reddit
Generally I’ve found the PM and engineer relationship to seem more like a client/consultant.
Engineering says, this will take this amount of time. We will deliver this amount late if you want to add this scope. You (PM) get the choice as to whether you want to add scope and ship later. Things like that.
The question is usually whether PM can make engineering work extra hours or put in a hack that adds tech debt. If they could, then that means engineers report to the PM. But usually I find either they are able to ask, or they are able to see if they can get EMs to force engineering. To be fair, once you hit the latter case, you’re in a pretty crappy environment.
PsychologicalCell928@reddit
If organized properly: the engineers report to the PM for the work specific to that project. However often the PM is not qualified to assess the engineering details only the schedules and possibly requirements. The PM should arrange for qualified people to assess the approach - usually other engineers in the organization.
The PM is responsible for developing a plan with input from the engineers, tracking progress against that plan, serving as an escalation point if an engineer isn't getting what's necessary to achieve their goals. A PM that tries to impose a schedule without the engineer having time to review and investigate issues should be held accountable for the failure. (e.g. PM says an activity should take 6 weeks; engineer investigates and determines it will require 3 months. PM has failed, not the engineer.).
The PM should provide some feedback to the engineer on any issues that arise during the project.
The PM should provide feedback to the engineer's management chain on the engineer's performance on the project.
The PM is not responsible for other management functions; e.g. personal/professional development, course work, raising the engineer's profile within the organization.
The PM is responsible for adjusting the schedule to allow for the amount of time the engineer is assigned to the project on a weekly basis. For example, if an engineer is assigned three days per week - the PM should not develop a schedule as if they were full time on the project. The PM should ALSO adjust for the inefficiency associated with switching between projects. An engineer assigned to two projects will have some loss of efficiency due to context switching as well as interruptions deemed an 'emergency'. Recommendation is that the engineer be booked at 40% on each project with 20% allowed for context switching and 'last minute' requests.
The PM is responsible for alerting the project sponsor and the engineer's manager if the project plan substantially underestimated the amount of time required; either days per week or number of weeks the project will go.
The PM is responsible for managing the project risk associated with staffing. If an engineer is assigned for three months and the project gets delayed or expanded - that engineer may be pulled from the project if the additional resource request is not dealt with appropriately.
_________________________________
Now in some organizations an engineers boss may be tapped to serve as a PM. In that case they should discuss how the different roles / relationships will operate. In particular the engineer should ask to whom they should escalate if they are having a problem with the PM being unreasonable. ;)
njculpin@reddit
Project versus Product.
pyhacker0@reddit
Some places are like that and it really sucks. I’ve had PMs trying to tell me how to write my code when they don’t have a clue what they are talking about
StillEngineering1945@reddit
Different orgs define PMs in a different way. It would be more interesting if you had an example where an engineer is managing a PM.
mafiazombiedrugs@reddit
Depends on how your friend is using the phrase "report to". My actual boss and direct report is my dev manager. I also report to my PM on my project so they know how things are going and can make sure I know what priorities to work on next.
I am also on the PSIRT so I report to the security... Manager? I don't actually know his title. So I would say I report to 3 people but only one is my boss with actual authority over me, the other two have authority over my tasks.
metaphorm@reddit
absolutely not in any sane company. PMs are not engineers and it would be inappropriate for a PM to have engineers as direct-reports as if they were an Eng Manager. They're not capable of managing engineers.
maybe what your friend meant was "she's managing a project that has 5 engineers assigned to it"?
damnburglar@reddit
That would make more sense but I have certainly worked with PMs who thought they were my boss. A quick come-to-Jesus talk to let them know what the org chart dictates helps clarify, and if necessary a hearty “I don’t fucking work for you” works in a pinch.
metaphorm@reddit
I haven't had to assert myself like this very often, but when I have had to I usually say something like "our mutual responsibilities are to the company, the customers, and our colleagues. let's work together on this."
damnburglar@reddit
It’s been very rare for me too, most people are reasonable. Without the nuclear option, something like you said is the go-to, if not some kind of preemptive conflict resolution/avoidance. It’s pretty nice how far diplomacy can get you.
HornyCrowbat@reddit
There is no singular answer. Just depends on how your company organization is structured. PMs oversee a few projects at a extremely high-level and only the tech leads and product owners interact with them. Developers only get their directions from tech leads.
Software_Entgineer@reddit
Can she fire them? If not they don’t report to her. If she can then they do and I would never want to work in that environment.
Engineers should report to an EM / Lead and the EM / Lead has the final say. A good PM should be aligned with the priorities of those parties which can give the illusion of power. That said if priorities change and / or different work is dictated by the PM without knowledge of the EM / Lead, that is likely a problem.
Anecdotally, I’ve gone through two PMs at my current job that thought they had this authority over the team, and myself (the lead). In both cases I eventually advised my team to stop responding to them and focus on engineering priorities as a reminder that our relationship was collaborative and not a hierarchal. After a couple weeks of this both tried to get me fired and both ended up leaving the company. My current PM works collaboratively with the team and we get along splendidly.
Electrical-Ask847@reddit
they don't report to her if she isn't submitting their performance reviews
m1nkeh@reddit
Project Manager, or Product Manager?
gripripsip@reddit
Typically, no. But in my experience most PMs act as if the engineers report to them anyway.
CuatroScrews@reddit
I would never report to a product manager. Would rather leave tech entirely.
armahillo@reddit
“report to” organizationally? Or “report to” informationally?
sendintheotherclowns@reddit
She's a People Manager? Sure, that's pretty normal.
prozeke97@reddit
PM is resoinsible for managing a projects health and establish communication between stakeholders. In that context, it is reasonable for a pm to keep track of the projects timeline. Getting reports from engineers is a way of keeping track of the engineering side of the project. And making sure all stakeholders are on the same page. It does not means the pm is some kind of a boss to the engineers.
NegativeSemicolon@reddit
Engineers report progress but it’s not really a managerial thing.
ba1948@reddit
Did I give reports to the PM so I can be left alone? Yes definitely Did I ask for approval(acceptance) of the developed feature from the PM? Sure, I mean it's his/her feature anyway in a sense
Did I get assigned tickets from the PM? Fuck no, I reported to my TL
As a tech lead I handle all PM bullshit and fake priorities and then assign tickets accordingly to my team.. No direct contact unless it's for planning and/or passing acceptance criteria
30FootGimmePutt@reddit
Nah they are just part of the team
thodgson@reddit
In a sense, yes. My boss is a DEV manager, but I really report to the PM for all work and direction for the team. Dev Mgr for technical direction. PM for business direction.
Comprehensive-Pin667@reddit
Pms are our peers
Bobbbbl@reddit
I report to them as they report to me. They give me the information I need for my job and so do I.
So... they manage the product, not the people - if that makes sense.
F1B3R0PT1C@reddit
Worked at a place that was organized that way. It’s not a good environment
cran@reddit
The line is a bit blurred and terminology gets muddled, but I doubt they report to her in the strictest sense.
ChiefNonsenseOfficer@reddit
In my org, PMs and delivery managers report to EMs (who all come from an engineering background).
In a partner org, developers and EMs are subordinate to PM (usually in a matrix relationship)
Guess which org gets sh*t delivered?
dxlachx@reddit
Typically engineers report to engineering managers. Project managers just micro manage them.
BuyMeSausagesPlease@reddit
A PM will manage the tasks of developers assigned to their project but there’s typically a seperate line manager who manages actual managerial stuff (ie. organising training, disciplinary action, etc.) and at least in my organisation the engineering line managers will always be engineers themselves.
SongFromHenesys@reddit
I've usually seen software houses, or big companies that just offer outsourcing like Accenture have these kind of setups. Overall that's a big no-no for me
Legal-Software@reddit
PMs don’t usually have direct line management responsibilities, but can allocate work to resources as part of a matrix management org.
allKindsOfDevStuff@reddit
No, at least not officially
HolyPommeDeTerre@reddit
I wouldn't say I report to my PM. I work with them to get to where we need to be. This is more an associate thing than a reporting. We split tech and business, each handle their scope. I am not saying anything about their business things (challenge but that's all) and they don't say anything about Technica thing (challenge). So I may report the advance on the project so they know where we are. But I don't report to them. I have my EM.
ZukowskiHardware@reddit
This has been an increasingly bad problem. I assume you mean product managers.
Literature-South@reddit
She’s embellishing. PMs and Engineers are parallel roles that work together. She’s not doing performance reviews, etc, for engineers
0Iceman228@reddit
I don't understand this post and I don't understand most answers. Everybody is just guessing away at this. Nobody here knows, including OP, what the company structure is like.
So what is the point in asking this question?
None of the words used are even defined well in general. Some people say reporting to someone means they have firing power, while I would argue a lot of engineers report to someone who can't fire them.
forgottenHedgehog@reddit
This subreddit has a ton of garbage developers. It got especially bad over the last few years.
jl2352@reddit
It’s not unheard of or rare, and I work somewhere with some teams doing that. The whole place seems pretty chill.
In my experience it’s better to have engineers report to a Tech Lead or Engineer Manager (who is technical), with a PM who is joint in leading the team. That allows the PM to hold more seniority on the direction, priorities, and obviously on product, but shouldn’t be bossing engineers on their day to day.
But ultimately it comes down to the people. I’ve seen amazing PMs I’d enjoy having as my manager, I’ve seen poor PMs I can barely be in the room with, and many in between.
kabekew@reddit
No, you usually report to an engineering manager. A non-engineer isn't going to know how to evaluate your performance or know how to get you the resources you need. You certainly work with other groups though, PM, Sales, tech writers etc.
Of course there are companies constantly messing with their org charts so they could certainly be trying something out like PM's supervising everyone in the group, but it's not best practice.
Jiveturkeey@reddit
Engineers may report to PM's in the sense of receiving tasks, priorities, and other such direction.
Engineers do not report to PM's in the sense of people management, e.g. performance evals, corrective action, firing, et cetera.
teslas_love_pigeon@reddit
Yes, this is actually quite common in nontechnical orgs with nontechnical management. Product Owners/Managers will often be someone engineers report to while same engineers will have a nontechnical manager that is slightly above the ladder of the PO.
These companies are exactly as you imagine, terrible.
bstaruk@reddit
Never seen it in my 20 YOE.
drunkandy@reddit
PMs certainly think they do
Shogobg@reddit
I report the progress I make to the PM I work with, so she can sync with stakeholders. If that’s what she meant, then it’s normal.
diablo1128@reddit
There is no universal answer and it depends on the company. I've worked at companies where you may have a direct Software Team Lead that you report to and other places where everybody reports to a project manager.
nightzowl@reddit
Report to her as in they report their story work to her. She never said that she was their manager.
terrany@reddit
Depends on what she means by reporting, I could see the case where she means 5 engineers update her with their stories and where they're at. If she clarified that she oversees 5 engineers and writes evaluations etc. then that's definitely not the norm.
RusticBucket2@reddit
She’s overstating her influence.
Some_Developer_Guy@reddit
This is the only answer.
couchjitsu@reddit
I don't think I've seen engineers report directly to Product Managers, although I wouldn't be surprised. But I have seen both PrdM and Eng report to the same boss. Sometimes that was an eng manager, some time it was some kind of "director of product."
Point being, you can probably find just about any org structure you want out there.
loxagos_snake@reddit
I wouldn't expect it to be the norm in a decently-sized company.
In my workplace (huge enterprise), the PM role is filled by scrum masters and product owners. There are multiple stakeholder relationships and people you might report to for various aspects of your work, but the SM & PO are in no way bosses. They are facilitators; they will help you find work, coordinate with you on presentations, moderate ceremonies and ask for your input when organizing the board. But the only person I report to in the strictest sense of the word is the engineering manager -- and to a lesser degree, the team leader (for delivery stuff).
That being said, I can see that happening in smaller companies or teams, where one person might have to fill multiple roles. It's just that if your friend is literally responsible for the employee, she's far more than a PM and her role name simply doesn't reflect that.
tupacbr@reddit
She thinks she has an authority that in reality does not exist… pm is for project management, no ppl management. And even in ppl management ppl shouldn’t see upper management as authority, they are in a different role addressing different levels of the management. They do not own you, they should be there to help you and provide guidance.
justUseAnSvm@reddit
PMs have ownership over product outcomes, the engineers have ownership over technical ones.
In my org, as an engineer, I get to take ownership of both!
My ideal state, is that you distribute down the ownership to individual team leads, they have broad control over what projects they pursue to achieve a certain set of goals, and PMs (as well as other support persons) are pulled in when you'd need a product or other type of expert.
The model where you have a PM controlling the feature flow, a staffed team of software engineers implementing that is really going away. Especially with AI, we need fewer engineers, and the folks that can step up into that void are software engineers working in both a lead/PM capacity.
endophage@reddit
Every company is different but it could easily be a line vs functional manager situation. First company I worked at those roles were very much blurred. We had an engineering manager who dealt with performance reviews and high level project assignment, but once you were assigned to a project the product manager gave you the specific tasks. Also the engineering manager reported to the head of product within the same vertical of the company.
I could totally imagine one of those product managers saying they had some number of engineers reporting to them and it would barely be stretching the truth, but the exact number and which engineers would change week to week.
Wassa76@reddit
It's not normal.
Theres always tension between the motives and priorities of product vs development. Having product be able to pull rank and overrule engineers woud lead to the products downfall.
schmidtssss@reddit
I’ve never seen a situation or project where a Project, or program, manager weren’t either directly contributing to your employment outcomes or were your actual manager.
timle8n1-@reddit
It could be.
But the honest response is they probably think and act like the engineers do but the engineers don’t. And the engineers hate them for it. Wouldn’t be the first time I saw that.
Exotic_eminence@reddit
It’s called a matrix org
NCSUMach@reddit
If it’s product management, that’s weird. If it is an engineering manager doing some project management, that can make sense. This all assumes that “reports to” means they are being managed by the person.
Relative_Objective42@reddit
Most unlikely
mirodk45@reddit
Really depends on the company, these roles aren't really written in stone. I worked in consultancy where the client "manager" was a PM but also an engineer.