Israel providing guns to Gaza jihadist gang to bolster opposition to Hamas
Posted by cdnhistorystudent@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 264 comments
rabidfusion@reddit
Kinda surprised that it's The Times Of Israel reporting this, they're usually promoting Zionism not undermining it like this.
Why is Israel doing genocide and collaborating with ISIS?
Is this going to be similar to how they funded and helped boost Hamas?
I don't understand.
cdnhistorystudent@reddit (OP)
Many Zionists also hate Netanyahu. He's destroyed Israel's international reputation and weakened the country.
S1M0666@reddit
Operation Valkyrie 2
ycnz@reddit
They hate Netanyahu, but it's super-important to bear in mind that they love the genocide.
xland44@reddit
This isn't undermining Zionism in any way; it is undermining Netanyahu, which are two entirely separate things.
2dudesinapod@reddit
Nah, this is the ugly face of Zionism and always has been. It’s just that the world wasn’t paying attention before because the headlines were tightly controlled. The headlines are still tightly controlled but cellphones put an end to the censorship.
xland44@reddit
It isn't.
Source: Am Zionist.
On a serious note though, if you ask any Israeli how they define Zionism, the overwhelming majority would simply say "A state for the Jewish people"; this is unfortunately broad, as whether that entails a democracy, a theocracy, or anything in between is where the disagreements arise.
For example, I and my entire family and friends are staunchly anti-Netanyahu and want a ceasefire, and also think bringing in more weapons into the strip is a fucking dumb move. But, as you'll see from the definition above, this has nothing at all to do with our stance on Zionism....
2dudesinapod@reddit
Any state that requires the displacement and disenfranchisement of millions of people is wrong.
xland44@reddit
You are saying this as a Canadian living on the lands of displaced First Nations, yes?
Israel doesn't require this. If it will bring about a two state solution and a final and permanent end to the conflict, I wholly support Israel leaving the West Bank and Gaza.
2dudesinapod@reddit
My family has been in Canada for almost 400 years and didn’t displace anyone.
I bet the Palestinian who owned the home your family lives in still has the key.
xland44@reddit
Unlikely given that I live in Tel Aviv.
However, my grandparents who fled 200km north from Beirut and Damascus have had all of their assets seized by the governments there since fleeing as refugees.
My family has been in MENA for much longer, but that doesn't change your being a hypocrite.
2dudesinapod@reddit
I look forward to the end of the Zionist colony
Racko20@reddit
What do these reparations look like to you?
AnArabFromLondon@reddit
That is up to the Palestinians, enough to repair relations.
Racko20@reddit
Good non-answer
AnArabFromLondon@reddit
That's what reparations are for, to repair relations. The people in question are the Palestinians. Asking a Canadian isn't going to get you the answer, you need to ask Palestinians. That's common sense.
Racko20@reddit
My question was what they think reparations should look like, which is a perfectly valid question to ask.
AnArabFromLondon@reddit
To a Canadian? I mean it's interesting to get their opinion and it could very well be a good answer but it's what the Palestinians think that really matters, right?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You’ve presented a completely alien concept. If you’re a Zionist then it never matters what Palestinians think…
AnArabFromLondon@reddit
Zionist logic is an oxymoron. They can be perfectly normal functioning members of society but have this carve out in their brains like a black hole where the laws of physics break down.
It would be fascinating if not for all the child killing it allows.
Revivaled-Jam849@reddit
(didn’t displace anyone.)
So no First Nations lived in the area where you live now?
rabidfusion@reddit
Israel doesn't require it but Israel endorses settlements and actively protects them.
Zionists love to use this as a justification for the genocide or to say that people can't be critical because of their own country history. (Points to my own flag)
The thing with Israel is that it's happening in 2025.
Paquetty@reddit
How do you think Zionism relates to the overwhelming support for ethnic cleansing in Israel? Those citizens aren't all Bibi supporters but they certainly love what he is doing in Gaza.
gaymerWizard@reddit
U people need to realize that being anti-Israeli government and anti Bibi is not being anti Israeli.
You hate Bibi because you hate Israel.
I hate Bibi because I love Israel.
We are not the same
rabidfusion@reddit
There is also the small thing about the ongoing genocide though, right?
I think hating Israel for an ongoing genocide is a pretty normal take.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
He or she (or they) are saying they are First Nations people. I think you’ll find that 80% of Israeli Jews love genocide…
stand_not_4_me@reddit
spreading lies with the hate, while, according to the last poll i have seen, around 60 something precent of isreali jews support the removal of palestinians only 20% support the killing of them.
why you spreading lies?
and before you ask me for sources, how about show yours.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The stat is 82% of Jewish Israelis were pro-genocide:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-03/ty-article/.premium/a-grim-poll-shows-most-jewish-israelis-support-expelling-gazans-its-brutal-and-true/00000197-3640-d9f1-abb7-7e742b300000
https://www.newarab.com/news/poll-huge-majority-israelis-back-gaza-ethnic-cleansing?amp
AmputatorBot@reddit
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suitorarmorfan@reddit
“U people” need to realize that Zionism is a fascist, colonialist ideology, and always has been. No one has the right to steal someone else’s land, no one has the right to create an apartheid ethnostate or to starve kids to death. If you disagree, there’s no humanity left in you.
RisingDeadMan0@reddit
kinda ironic, that then Bibi will take the criticism and spread it, blame Israel and all Israelis, turn it call it anti-semitism, and try to shut it down, insane really for a man who is being prosecuted for bribery and corruption charges
FudgeAtron@reddit
Almost like he's a corrupt sectarian...
RedTulkas@reddit
I dislike Israel because she's committing a genocide
Responsible-Link-742@reddit
They are not really ISIS. They are Fatahists and PA. Most of their members are criminals who escaped from prisons at the start of the war
waiver@reddit
Is there any evidence for the claim that they are Fatahists and PA?
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rabidfusion@reddit
You're right, they aren't ISIS. I was misremembering Avigdor Liberman saying that they had ties to ISIS.
I suppose we can reduce it down to the term jihadist, why are Israel supporting jihadists?
I often see the term Jihadist when people refer to Hamas, I'm just confused why Israel would support people who are apparently their enemy?
From where I'm sitting it doesn't make sense, they stop specific aid from entering Gaza because it may aid Hamas but then they send more weapons into Gaza to arm Muslim jihadists that they say are the enemy?
They won't allow or limit aid for the starving but send in more guns?
I'm just kinda typing my thoughts out because the math ain't mathing.
berbal2@reddit
It kind of feels like Netanyahu wants to turn Gaza into a Haiti-esqe state (but far worse) where different gangs control various territories. It’s the same basic strategy he’s pursued with keeping Hamas strong against Fatah, and it worked pretty well for him until it catastrophically backfired.
It’s… unsurprising that he hasn’t learned his lesson
Responsible-Link-742@reddit
To be honest it reminds me of the Iraqi Sahwa (Anbar Awakening).
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yup. Or something like Lebanon. Or Syria.
SirStupidity@reddit
Today's Fatah, while having it's own litany of problems, is far from jihadist. The PA under Fatah rule has strayed quite far from armed conflict against Israel, in fact in the WB there is some security cooperation. Not that I nessecerily support this move just think it's important to point out.
waiver@reddit
Abu Shahab was from ISIS, that's why he was in jail when the war started.
artificial_ben@reddit
Times of Israel is actually decent - centrist. Haaretz is also decent - leftist. Jerusalem Post though is an unreliable rag.
waiver@reddit
I would say that in the scale Haaretz-Jerusalem Post, the ToI is closer to Haaretz but they also have their hasbara moments.
artificial_ben@reddit
The columnists are random and I would skip them.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The columnists are the best part! They provide a window into Joe Israelis think and feel. For example, for every article talking about RHR attempting to stop settler violence in the West Bank there are a dozen talking about how it’s time to take over the West Bank and expel most or all Palestinians, and another dozen talking about how Palestinians don’t exist and therefore Israel can do what it wants to with the west bank.
For every article saying that the IDF mass murdering children in Gaza is wrong there are a dozen saying that Israel should “go all the way” and another dozen talking about the hostages or dead from October 7.
Every article talking about Israel’s plummeting reputation in the test of the world attributes it to antisemitism. Every article that talks about international politicians paints in binary - as pro-Israel or antisemites.
A lot of these articles share the same broken talking points - Israel is allowed to acquire land in a defensive war, Israel is only defending itself, all these dead are Hamas’ fault, Palestinians love death and all the other wall to wall dehumanisations that Israel has carefully cultivated over the years…
If someone tells you that Israeli society is divided and there are many who want peace, they are technically telling the truth. There are thousands in Israel who want peace. But the overwhelming majority of Jewish Israelis don’t want peace, they want genocide. And they always will.
BurstYourBubbles@reddit
I wouldn't go as far as describing Haaretz as leftist. Centre-left maybe.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
I have been following it for years and it's certainly not decent. Lately everybody is just fed up with Mileikowsky that is all.
rabidfusion@reddit
I'll just chalk down the Times Of Israel remark as ignorance on my part.
AniTaneen@reddit
I’ve posted this before, and I’ll copy it here. But the TLDR is that there is internal divisions within both Zionism and AntiZionism.
Israel exists as a paradox in that it’s both a settler colonial project and also a diaspora reunification national project. That idea isn’t just mine, but brought up by Dr. Rashid Khalidi, Professor Emeritus of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University. I’ll link the interview, 34 minutes into the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnuudpMfVhU
How you think that the paradox should be resolved usually fits one of four major ideologies:
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Revisionist Zionism hasn’t been in power for just two decades. It’s been the driving force in Zionism for most of its existence.
BethLife99@reddit
Interesting read. Thank you
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You really think a rant about how evil Hamas are is going to convince any observers that Israel is not as the truth is undermining Zionism? Ok…
meister2983@reddit
It's a pretty neutral source of information. Hardly some Israeli propaganda outfit.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/marchers-chant-death-to-arabs-and-may-your-village-burn-in-old-citys-muslim-quarter-ahead-of-flag-march/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
The times of Israel is a "neutral source of information"? LOL
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
The times of Israel are centrist anti-Netanyahu media, and they support the opposition (Yair Lapid)
mcotter12@reddit
The prophetic destruction of Israel already happened. Israel was a word meaning roughly "the rule of god". Creating a nation named after it destroyed that concept in the mind of the word by replacing it with a nation state.
That said this has to be one of the worst decisions since the US aided ISIS to destabilize the middle east.
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
Does this sub like to forget who was literally one of the main actors providing funding and support to anti-ISIS fighters in Iraq? And ignore the actor (Russia) who claimed to be fighting ISIS but mostly attacked Assad's allies instead?
oz_xvii@reddit
I don’t think you’re talking about Iran. But no, most people haven’t forgotten the main actor who helped stopped ISIS had also facilitated creating it
Lmao what, whose narrative is this. Russia sabotaged Syria? Are you just saying shit for the sake of it?
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
On Syria--that was my bad. I misspelt. What I meant to say was that Russia mostly attacked Assad's enemies under the guise of "Fighting ISIS." Something people here seem willing to overlook.
But I stand by the rest.m. The claim the initial guy said was "the US aided ISIS to destabilize the middle east." Which is strange to say given the amount of effort in guns, money, and support the United States spent on defeating ISIS, declaring it a terrorist group, and the fact that it continued to help fund detention centers for former ISIS fighters to be held in.
oz_xvii@reddit
You're making the distinction between the "rebels" and ISIS, very convenient here of course
Would Assad not have fled had Russia not tried pointlessly to save his regime? Why? How was that a poor decision from Russia? Do you understand that was the whole point they were there?
And people on the receiving end of shelling, tend to naturally not be fond of those who shelled them. This is not something exclusive to Russia
And you're wrong.
If someone were to stab you, and then proceed to drive you to the ER to have you stitched up and paid for the expenses, surely you would overlook the fact that it was that very same person who got you in this situation to begin with, right? I mean, look at all the effort they put in after the fact
Unless you, of course, believe you deserved to be stabbed, which is a different conversation
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
First of all, don't give try and suggest that all of the Syrian rebels or anti-Assad forces were/are ISIS. The UN has not suggested as such, and have supported ending sanctions on the new government, which was one such force. This is in stark contrast to their continued policy towards ISIS/ISL which the security council has expressed numerous times universal condemnation for.
One such example of their condemnation of ISIS
Meanwhile, here they are regarding the lifting of sanctions. Rather distinct.
I'm going to take the UN's opinion on those diverse forces and the new Syrian government over what a poster at r/ShitLiberalsSay thinks. Sorry, but that's the world body's thoughts on the matter more, and there's little reason for me to think that this choice is compromised. As opposed to those who said otherwise like Maram Susli, who spreads conspiracy theories online.
Secondly, you are still adamantly refusing to address that my comment explicitly called out the claim that "the US aided ISIS to destabilize the middle east." Which is still ridiculous given the amount of effort the United States spent to building and helping the coalition defeat ISIS. Or its stance in the security council which was adamantly against it. So, I suggest if you want to reply, you get me something that supersedes those statements or actions if you want to defend that intial poster's claim.
oz_xvii@reddit
Okay and?
Russia did not make that distinction and shelled them all the same, and they did so openly under no guise of anything, back in 2015, before any talk of lifting sanctions or even the regime's collapse in sight, which was your original statement
Helping maintain the regime, was the sole point they were there, it wasn't some secondary objective
Lmao you checked my comment history, how infantile
I don't know who that person is, do they also not make that distinction? It doesn't matter, that distinction was made by the whole world back then, which was what resulted in groups like HTS being put on the terrorlist. The fact that they got removed later after the reality on the ground changed, does not erase all that history. Today's government are yesterday's jihadis, and yesterday's jihadis were the day before yesterday's moderate rebels, but that's ancient history
Despite all that, nowhere do I ever remember having any pro Assad sentiment or making similar comments, it just is what it is. So, I'm not sure how that is relevant
Funny though, I did find some comments about Golan Heights, but I'm willing to bet my kidneys you didn't want to touch those with a 10 foot pole, because you're a coward who doesn't want to go there
Yes, you are correct, the US did help destroy ISIS after it had enabled it by destabilizing the region, just incase the analogy I made earlier went over your head
These statements that came after the dust settled? Yeah, I don't think it's physically possible for me to do that
And no, I'm gonna respond with the same maturity shown by someone who posts fascist propaganda on r/EnoughCommieSpam and ragebait comments on r/AlJazeera
Now that I checked your comment history, I'm convinced this conversation is going nowhere
Keep looking for nuance, fellow r/neoliberal lmao
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
You quite literally said I was making a distinction between the "Rebels" and ISIS which was "convenient." Meanwhile, it did overwhelmingly target Syrian opposition, as identified by research done by qualified individuals.
See here.
That's some Assad apologist denialism on your part right there. "Russia targeted everybody," you say, as if that eliminates the clear overwhelming bias in who it targeted, and who it chose to mostly not attack instead despite claiming otherwise.
Yet even with all the blood and treasure it expended for years propping up Assad, it still lost a key actor right in the middle of the middle east with the fall of Assad's government. Syria's new government seems fairly intent on attracting American investment and rapprochement. What a colossal waste of time and effort on Putin's part. Unless you think that losing billions on a now absent dictator in a strategic location isn't a geopolitical blunder, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
It's good you admit to that obvious point about who destroyed ISIS, but I want to point out that the original poster explicitly said the US aided ISIS. Which I pointed out is absurd, given the vast amount of effort spent by the American government to destroy it. Of course, given ISIS's original group actually predates the Iraq war by a number of years, was already active by the time of the invasion, and was already opposed by the American government, how much America willingly "facilitated it" seems like a something open to debate. I'm more partial to blaming the Ba'athists who joined it as well as the lack of straightforward policy from Bush. I also suspect that the decades-long rule of a dictator with palaces and a police state probably did not help improve the country's stability, especially so after he was removed from power. Your analogy is incorrect, insofar as it erases everything else that was occurring domestically in Iraq before the invasion, as well as Saddam's own actions towards his people, and in his governing of his country, which had persisted for decades before the 2003 invasion.
I'm not sure you've spent much time on r/EnoughCommieSpam, but given that that subreddit has a high number of individuals from post-soviet states, as well as other formerly communist/currently communist states, I question how fascist it really is, given the long-held tradition in those governments and marxist groups to label any dissenting opinion from those populations as a fascistic (given how those eastern European governments collapsed from their own people, one wonders about true those labels were). Moreover, most posts on the main page are screenshots of absurd things being said by illiberal people, such as people literally defending the DPRK's lack of development, or people refusing to condemn the Oct. 7 Massacre, while most countries on the planet an numerous UN bodies have already done so.
Reviewing what comments I do have there also don't seem to show anything particularly extreme, unless you think: calling Nazis and communists pathetic, stating benjamin netanyahu must leave power, pointing out the actions taken by Americans across the country against trump, calling out the whitewashing of Stalin's crimes as deplorable, wondering if certain language break's X's TOS, and commenting about the length of a streamer's ban makes me as a"fascist" in the conventional sense. I suspect they do not.
I further question how stating that
"Jesus Christ Ma'am, this is one of the people in congress who is most opposed to current Israeli policy. Why on earth are you attacking her?"
towards a video where an activist screamed at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is rage-bait given AOC's electoral history. She actually happens to be in a position to change things and was probably aligned with that activist on most matter, so I question how valid screaming at her was as a tactic to effect change in congress. It's counterproductive, and makes the activist look illogical.
And yeah, I'm a dirty r/neoliberal member. Us neolib fascists, who have article after article bemoaning trump's policy choices in everything. Naught bunch that we are, with our LGBTQ+ Pride flairs, and multinational representatives. Mmh, yes.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
He's already funded Hamas to 'thwart the creation of a Palestinian state'. Throw another bad decision on the pile. Israel is speed running towards its own destruction at this point. Must be the 80 years coming up or something.
cdnhistorystudent@reddit (OP)
It's amazing how many terrorist organizations have been backed by Western governments at some point in time. And of course it always backfires.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
Fun fact, in Afghanistan the US wasn't even directly providing the arms, it gave the arms to Pakistan who then armed pro-pakistani forces. Also Pakistan's guy failed to take over the country after the Soviets left, and so all those arms funneled to Afghanistan through Pakistan ended up largely in the hands of the Taliban who only emerged in 1994 after the collapsed of the Soviet Union. The main reason Pakistan in turn supported the Taliban was because of its fanatical obsession with being stronger than India so under this ideology its military dominated government chose to support the anti-Indian Taliban which in turn allowed it to train anti-Indian terrorists out of reach of India in Afghanistan.
In short, the Afghan situation can be blamed on the British
your_red_triangle@reddit
wtf are you talking about, how are the British to blame?
it's well documented that the CIA funded, armed and trained the mujahideen, 3+ billion dollars, matching Saudi Arabia.
After the Soviets left a civil war broke out. Nothing to do with Pakistan or the British.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
Britain was responsible in good aprt for the partition of India and the Afghan-Pakistani border
Taokan@reddit
Really, the British are to blame for pretty much everything.
Like, take everything you would blame on the US, and realize we're just the autistic, emancipated child of Britain.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
Well the reason the Brits had many colonies was because they stole it from for example the Dutch, who in turn stole them from Portugal or Spain. A lot of colonies were gained by seizing them from an enemy power
Reasonable_Cod_5643@reddit
Not really a British issue then as every European power was doing it. We just had more naval resources at the time
eagleal@reddit
The British is mainly the source of all past and current crisis relating to Middle-East and Mediterrean from the XIX century to today.
Cold War splits in the Mediterrean is the Percentile agreement desperately wanted by British to hold the Suez control. So is the 1917 secret agreement promising land to the Zionists, and so is the later wars in ME. From the Nakba, to the multiple Iran coups, to Afghanistan.
The americans were more of enablers. In fact throughout history their main focus has always been Central and South America and the Pacific. The strategic arm of the US in ME and North Africa has always been through the British/Israeli.
Of course later half of the century the US used these to mainly distrupt its rival economy and influence.
sulaymanf@reddit
The British asked the CIA to overthrow the Iranian democracy in order to help BP (British Petroleum) make more profits.
SowingSalt@reddit
The British Durand Line cuts right through the Pashtun homeland. Both Afghanistan and Pakistan considers themselves the true ruler of the Pashtun people, and arm extremists in the other country to destabilize them.
Best_Change4155@reddit
I can't believe this sub found Palestinian Islamofascists it doesn't like.
waiver@reddit
So you can't defend Israel supporting ISIS therefore you need to say something dumb instead right? Don't worry, you will soon be updated with the next narrative and you will be telling us how ISIS is actually cool.
waiver@reddit
The worst part is that this literally confirms that the attacks against UN convoys were done at the behest of the State of Israel, or at least with their support.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
We already had confirmation from NGOs that they were literally setting up roadblocks within sight of a major Israeli border crossing and that most of the food was being dumped while they looked for higher value goods.
Also reports that the main compound/base of the group is a couple hundred metres away from the border yet somehow untouched despite dozens-hundreds of militants operating from it.
Arrow156@reddit
It's Bibi's magnum operandi, antagonize his enemies into attacking then retaliate against them. He never wipes out a foe, he always leaves enough of them around to rebuild so he can antagonize them again the next time he's at risk of losing power. He's been doing it his entire career, this shit always happens on his watch. I wouldn't be surprised if he was providing them with arms and aid right up til Dec 27th.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
It's the Israeli state in general, they've been doing the same thing since the 60's.
ijzerwater@reddit
I am sure the -checks source- Abu Shabab clan would never want to take Israeli hostages. 100% sure.
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
Netanyahu supporters, “we’ll never give them that chance because we will make all the Arabs leave Gaza and then Israel!”
ijzerwater@reddit
and just in case we run out of enemies, lets bomb Lebanon again
JKallStar@reddit
You say this as if theyve stopped in the first place.
ijzerwater@reddit
it does not make the news here unless its big.
JKallStar@reddit
So illegal bombings aren't big? There was literally one in Dahiye a few hours before my original comment?
waiver@reddit
I am starting to suspect the definition of "ceasefire" in hebrew is wildly different, considering how they keep attacking after signing them.
ArealOrangutanIswear@reddit
Nah it's just that Israel sees world laws and thinks "these are for thee. Not for me."
ijzerwater@reddit
its not my decision what makes the news
SoftDrinkReddit@reddit
Considering they literally co-created Hamas, this checks out
Darkstar_111@reddit
Yes, including... Hamas!
That Netanyahu empowered to drive a wedge against the PLO.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
The military industrial complex needs enemies to fight. It never backfires.
Abject-Investment-42@reddit
Criminal gangs are rarely a worthwhile enemy for MIC
ParticularClassroom7@reddit
They fire back though :v
MrWolfman29@reddit
That's a poor person problem, not a large investor in the Military Industrial Complex problem....
Best_Change4155@reddit
Lmao MIC is the only reason Ukraine is free right now.
metameh@reddit
You've got a weird definition of freedom.
BernieMP@reddit
I'd say it's also the reason why it's at war, but when has the us ever instigated conflict for profit?
Best_Change4155@reddit
Ya it must be the US's fault that Russia is led by a Soviet dicksucker.
BernieMP@reddit
As opposed to america, which has completely given up their militaristic goals and no longer participates in conflict for capitalistic interests, right?
I mean, Russia wants war at any cost while in the US it's just that...
> [...] arms production only exists at all because of that sustained political and lobbying effort.
and
> [...] because arms production is integral to the US.
Oh shit they sound exaclty the same!
Best_Change4155@reddit
No? I never suggested that. What I suggested is that it's not the US's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine. I know this, because I have more than two brain cells.
BernieMP@reddit
How about you put those two braincells to work then? What does instigation mean? And what incentive would a nation whose economy requires war see in brokering peace?
N0riega_@reddit
??? What a nonsensical thing to say
Best_Change4155@reddit
???
Where do you think they are getting their weapons from?
N0riega_@reddit
That’s not what I’m confused about. The military industrial complex is sending young Ukrainians men to the meat grinder. You call that freedom? Lmao
Best_Change4155@reddit
Better than being Russian
N0riega_@reddit
Least brain broken Ukraine supporter
Best_Change4155@reddit
Sounds better in Russian
N0riega_@reddit
Me wanting Ukrainians to not die sounds Russian to you?
Inversalis@reddit
When people talk about the Military Industrial Complex, they usually mean the political and lobbying efforts surrounding military production. Not the fact that weapons are being produced at all.
Best_Change4155@reddit
But arms production only exists at all because of that sustained political and lobbying effort.
It's why Europe took years to be able to start manufacturing ammunition for Ukraine. Meanwhile, the US already had factories ready to go.
Weird_Point_4262@reddit
The US did not have factories to go. It had old stockpiles. The US has been gradually rebuilding its arms production the same way Europe has
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.freightwaves.com/news/rebuilding-american-munitions-production%3famp
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Your insistence that arms production only exists at all because of that is just flatly wrong.
You’d have a point if you’d said the arms produced would be significantly less, not implying the MIC is the only reason arms exist in the first place is silly
Best_Change4155@reddit
MIC is the only reason for immediate and constant production of arms for Ukraine. Again, Ukraine needed arms immediatedly.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
"I get your point about the complexity of arms logistics and the role of the MIC, but you’re totally overstating its singular influence here.
The reason the US had existing factories and arms ready to go for Ukraine isn't solely because the MIC "demands" production even during peacetime. The US maintain strategic stockpiles and a robust defense industrial base as a matter of national security and geopolitical readiness.
It's fundamental to deterrence and the ability to respond to global crises like the invasion of Ukraine
To say the MIC is the only reason for immediate and constant production for Ukraine is an oversimplification that ignores the broader strategic context and political decisions
reddishcarp123@reddit
The military industrial complex doesn't exist, Trump single handedly proved it fucking over all US military contractors from selling weapons to Ukraine.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I don't think there is a total ban on giving or selling weapons to Ukraine.
NetworkLlama@reddit
The last authority to send anything came from the $60 billion Congress set aside last year. Hegseth stopped it unilaterally and without telling Trump before Trump ordered a reversal. They're still getting stuff, including some spare F-16 chassis from Davis-Monthan AFB, but once the current drawdown is complete, it seems unlikely they will get more unless enough Republicans in Congress can join Democrats to overcome a veto.
49lives@reddit
Lol okay buddy
Aenjeprekemaluci@reddit
Also amazing how many of these conspiracy theories regards to them turn out to be true
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
I wasn’t aware that Israel purposely funding Hamas to oppose the Palestinian Authority (who wanted a peaceful two state solution) was a conspiracy theory. Netanyahu has statements on record about the fact
eagleal@reddit
A conspiracy may be true and supported by factual data in a given time or context, yet be held a conspiracy theory by the mainstream/prevailing narrative.
Likud and Netanyahu propping Hamas is true. Yet this claim after Oct 7 is seen as a propaganda conspiracy theory by the mainstream narrative pushed by the Israel's Government today.
Discrediting directly the people exposing the facts and calling them conspiracists has worked for millenia.
Bloaf@reddit
But in this case the issue is that the people saying that Netanyahu propped up Hamas are typically insinuating that Hamas is an Israeli creation and tool, when the reality is that "propping up" means something closer to "not interrupting your enemy while they're making a mistake" than "creating and controlling".
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
That comparison is way off. Netanyahu specifically propped up Hamas so that the Palestinian authority didn’t get into power.
Because they were peaceful.
Bloaf@reddit
Netanyahu's involvement starts in like 2014, after Hamas was solidly in power.
Indeed, in 2014, the PA formed a unity government WITH Hamas, only for Hamas to unilaterally withdraw.
Perhaps you can tell me: when, between 2014 and Oct 7, did the PA have a shot at re-taking power in Gaza?
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
They weren’t given one in that time frame because of exactly my point, Hamas being propped up by Israel.
I can’t remember the exact figure but there was millions being siphoned from Iran through Israel directly to Hamas during that period directly overseen by Netanyahu.
Bloaf@reddit
So your criticism is that Israel didn't blockade Gaza enough, and that Israel didn't override the Gazan's democratic choices?
The point is that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have decided to not get along. That is a mistake being made by the Palestinians. Israel in the past has decided to let them continue to make that mistake by not blockading all of Hamas' money.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
No? Nice strawman 👍
Bloaf@reddit
You were talking about the money Netanyahu allowed in, which was Qatari.
There is no doubt Iran also funds Hamas, but Israel does not serve as the intermediary for that money.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Ahah, my mistake, it was Qatari suitcase money that Israel facilitated directly for Hamas 😂
Appreciate the misinformation correction but the country of origin doesn’t totally matter when the main point was Israel directly propping Hamas up.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Right but that’s twisting the definition of conspiracy quite far at that point. I get what you’re saying but let’s not ascribe to their loose definitions.
It was Wikipedia I read his quote from a decade or two ago on the matter, so pretty mainstream
eagleal@reddit
We probably just differ on our definition of mainstream. For example I would not describe Wikipedia mainstream. Known events? Sure.
But mainstream is the stuff that gets parrotted by the news and tv media such as morning shows, that speak directly to the ears of the biggest share of the Bell curve. Or the largest share of stuff your granny sees in FB posts.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
I guess it differs where you’re from.
Bring from Ireland this stuff is on our evening news, being watched by most of the elderly people of the country
redsox0914@reddit
"fAcTs" ArE kHaMaS bWoOd WiBeL yOu AnTi-SeMiTe
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
This gave my frontal lobe a headache
Ok_Art6263@reddit
Fact : 99% of western government stopped backing terrorist organization before they get the one that won't backstab them, keep backing the terrorist organizations!
Type_02@reddit
Terrorist backed by Russia 🤬😡
Terrorist backed by Democratic West 🥰💅
NotStompy@reddit
On this sub it feels like the opposite lol.
How about neither being acceptable?
blueteamk087@reddit
One man’s terrorist organization is another man’s liberation movement.
GramsciFangay@reddit
You need infinite enemies for infinite wars. It’s by design not an accident. Blowback will be able to have 20 seasons
Biosterous@reddit
The only silver lining to all of this then.
FCOranje@reddit
Did it backfire?
Netanyahu didn’t want a Palestinian state. He wanted to take over all of Palestine and displace them into neighbouring countries. He wants to take parts of neighbouring countries too.
It seems to be working - as vile as it is…
Ali_Cat222@reddit
article here from the times of Israel on Benjamin backing up Hamas.
redditing_away@reddit
Divide and conquer.
rattleandhum@reddit
what are you doing here? On almost every thread I've seen you, you defend Israel.
redditing_away@reddit
Oh I'm sorry, are differing opinions not welcome here or what? What are you doing here?
Not to mention that my statement above is in no way in support of it, just calling what it is.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
No, genocidal opinions aren't welcome.
redditing_away@reddit
Man there used to be a time when this sub wasn't a reverse r/worldnews, but it seems the circle-jerking has taken over.
Sad to see, but well. I'll stick around anyway.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Sad to hear.
redditing_away@reddit
We all can't have everything we want, do we?
Anyway, there'll be plenty of opportunities to enjoy the solace of this particular bubble, so you'll be fine.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Yeah the bubble of Palestinian support that exists in your imagination. Meanwhile in reality virtually all western news sites, most news forums, and most public venues all explicitly support Israel. In some places not supporting Israel, or opposing it, is literally illegal. Germany itself crushes Palestinian demonstrations regularly.
Even here, where Palestine is favoured, every Israel thread is infested with genocidal monsters like yourself who still support Israel.
There's no bubble, you just think everyone who isn't a servile halfwit who nods their empty fucking head to obvious lies is bad.
redditing_away@reddit
You sure? Because usually what's the narrative around here is that the whole world supports Palestine and Israel is the one whose clock is ticking. Surprised to the basically the opposite being true.
Yes, because they have a habit of turning quite nasty. Criticism is valid and welcome, but denying Israels right to exist crosses a line - particularly in Germany of all places - and attacking cops, journalists and occupying and trashing (historical) University buildings is also not really helping their case.
Support Israel's right to exist, not their current policy. That's not an unreasonable position to have, given that it's a) merely stating the obvious and b) one of the key prerequisites of lasting peace, should we ever see it.
Immediately starting to personally attack a person just because you don't like their opinion might let off some steam but just reinforces that this is an echo chamber where like minded people clap each other's back. This sub used to be for quite interesting discussions and still is at times for any other topic than Gaza. I'd like for it to return to it. One r/worldnews is enough.
BurstYourBubbles@reddit
It should be noted that a state (a polity) in and of itself doesn't have a right to exist. It's often conflated with the right to life (which all Israelis have, naturally)
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Yes I'm sure, polling is not the same as influence over the media or country-level policy. That is obvious, don't pretend not understand simple things to try and criticize Palestinian supporters as hysterical or irrational.
No it doesn't, no state, let alone an apartheid state, has a right to exist. Israel will share the fate of Rhodesia.
I don't care about pretexts used to dismantle protests because I'm not a dupe who falls for literal propaganda 101 tactics.
I'll criticize a genocide defender whenever and however I please.
redditing_away@reddit
What? I'm not attacking you or anyone else. I was just genuinely surprised given that usually the opposite is said.
It does. You're deluding yourself if you think that denying that will have any other value than virtue signalling to like-minded people. That's not how realpolitik works.
We also both know that Israel would rather nuke the whole place than watch itself getting demolished. So entertaining that thought has zero chance of becoming reality both politically and practically. It's pointless and which I frankly don't get. It has no connection to reality.
You're making it far too easy to just label anyone you don't agree with a genocide denier or whatever slur you come up with at the moment. I don't care much, since I'll still sleep well, but should you ever happen to discuss stuff in reality and not just online, you'd discredit yourself immediately with that attitude. That's serving neither you nor the case/topic you're arguing for.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
Are you really surprised at a German cucking for Israel like his life depends on it?
vernes1978@reddit
I'm not sure if you noticed, but still a lot of people are still giving Israel permission to commit genocide.
That wouldn't have been able if they started carpet-bombing without a large inhumane attack by Hamas.
There would be a lot more official pushback.
x-winds@reddit
There's a news story about to hit about Israel had ordered a record 14 billion dollars in weapons in 2025, mostly from the European Union, about 35%. Mostly from ones that have criticized Israel heavily. Spain didn't supply any, they're true to their word.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
It’s also amazing how so many people see that Hamas was funded to weaken the PA to prevent a Palestinian state and not realize that Hamas is not helping the establishment of a Palestinian state.
It’s not just in the west either. In the West Bank polls have shown high support for Hamas, a group that was armed by Israel to prevent a Palestinian state. I bet Netanyahu chuckles every time he sees those polls released.
onepareil@reddit
I mean, Hamas is popular in the West Bank because the people there have experienced years and years of being “led” by the corrupt and completely ineffectual Palestinian Authority. I think it’s not hard to understand, even if from our outsider perspective we disagree. Hamas isn’t to blame for the expanding settlements and lawless settler violence in the West Bank, a problem which existed long before Netanyahu came to power (and before Hamas even existed).
Palestinians have no effective leader or political party they can rally behind, and that’s not a coincidence.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Hamas was established in 1987. The PA was formed in 1993 for the Oslo Accords.
The Israeli government was supporting Hamas even before they became a militant group, they supported Hamas when they were a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated charity in the 70s. When they became a militant group and started launching attacks, Israel stopped helping them for obvious reasons.
It wasn’t until Netanyahu’s time that he began helping them knowing that they were a militant group. Netanyahu’s support of Hamas has nothing to do with helping Israel. It is to support his personal political goals and help his political party.
The only reason Netanyahu hates Hamas now is that they launched 7 Oct during his tenure instead of doing it with the last guy. Now they’ve bitten the hand that feeds them and he’s looking to a new attack dog
onepareil@reddit
Yes, I know when both Hamas and the PA were founded, and I know how long the Israeli government has been propping up Palestinian militant groups. They prop up the PA as well.
My point is that when you’ve lived through decades of seeing how utterly powerless your government is to protect you, it’s not hard to understand why you might think: “Oh, I like those guys. If nothing else, at least they can get revenge.”
The problem isn’t only Israeli government interference, it’s that for all this time powerful Western governments and “liberal” “peace-minded” Zionists who supposedly support a 2 state solution have sat by and done nothing. In some cases, they’ve actively worked against those trying to do something by subjecting Israel to political or economic pressure.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
And my point is that those people are gullible. Hamas was Netanyahu’s favorite pet because they want to get “revenge”.
Let me explain Netanyahu’s nee plan
Remove Hamas for biting the hand that fed it
Let Gaza be ruled by Yasser Abu Shabab
Yasser Abu Shabab inevitably turns his guns on Israel, empowering Israel’s right wing and giving them lots of Knesset seats
Palestinians begin supporting Yasser Abu Shabab’s faction as the hero of the Palestinian resistance, cementing their position in Gaza for the long term
Israel has to fight against an ISIS linked aid stealing murderer of Gazans, save Gaza from Yasser Abu Shabab.
The reason Palestinians have no independent political factions is partially by Netanyahu’s design yes, but it’s also a fatal flaw since 1948. Before the 60s, the Palestinian cause was led by Jordan and Egypt. The West Bank is literally named by Jordan because Jordan is the East Bank.
The Palestinian cause has struggled with finding independent leaders long before Israel stuck their hands in the pie. The 1964 PLO charter rejected the idea that the PLO would have sovereignty over Palestine. Any other independence movement who put something like that out would have been replaced in days.
It’s just been a fundamental and deep rooted issue that Palestinians are very bad at picking leaders. It’s next to impossible for them to spontaneously create any kind of independent political movement without some type of external assistance.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Nah, they see it as a win-win. Either the jihadists remain loyal and they now have a useful ally (has this ever happened?) or they turn and now there's a new enemy to stay in perpetual war with.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
South Lebanon kind of remained loyal until reunification but they're incompetent anyway
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
South Lebanese were Christians
ChuchiTheBest@reddit
Knowing Bibi, that's probably what's going on.
PedanticQuebecer@reddit
The leopards won't eat my face... this time!
TheRealGouki@reddit
only when we need to invade them.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
It's amazing that people think of Israel as a Western nation while being in the Middle East. Almost like colonialism never ended.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
In this case, the bad outcome is intentional.
Yodamort@reddit
Backfires? This was the intention from the beginning lol
Just-another-weapon@reddit
Absolutely unreal.
So whenever Israel were blaming Hamas for looting aid convoys and using that as a justification for starving the entire strip, it was actually Israel's armed and supported jihadist gangs.
This Israeli regime is completely out of control.
rattleandhum@reddit
All prior, too.
It's a state literally built on genocide and the expulsion of the natives, a literal colony.
AsterJ@reddit
Jews are actually the indigenous people of Judea. Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula.
Paquetty@reddit
Yea, that's not how indigenaity works. Who was expelled from their homes? Whose families had lived there for generations? Palestinians (including the Jews who lived there before zionism) are indigenous to the region.
Full_Distribution874@reddit
The Roman Empire murdered and enslaved a huge amount of Jews in Judea. That's why there are so many outside of the Levant. This isn't to excuse the current actions of Israel, but you should really pick a better argument than one that can go back to before recorded history.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You wrote that statement with the intention of justifying Israel’s current actions. After all, if Jews are native then they are justified in expelling those evil colonialists that have only been living there for 1,500 years, right?
Says the guy who believes a book that says Jews invaded Palestine from Egypt…
stand_not_4_me@reddit
the concept of language eludes you that you hear one thing and think the opposite like living in bizzarro world. based on this you could be the biggest zionist supported of the destruction of the palestinians.
this continues the hearing one thing and saying another, apparently roman and Egyptian records count for nothing then. also it was not called palestine when the hebrews came there from egypt. it was actually composed of 3 or 4 states one of which was philastine, whether they are the ancestors of palestinians today is a matter for debate. personally i think it is more likely palestinians are related to one of the other states.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You really don’t understand logic…
Full_Distribution874@reddit
I don't believe the Old Testament, or the new one for that matter, but the Romans did record their own actions in Judea. Where do you think the Jews came from if not Israel?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I think it doesn’t matter where they came from. Why should it? Even if they did leave and spend 1,500 years somewhere else, do they have a right to go back and mass murder the current inhabitants? Why does no one else have this right?
And this isn’t to say I believe the myth that no European converted to Judaism before last century, making jews somehow not native to where they and their ancestors were born for 1,500 years, but solely of ME ancestry…
stand_not_4_me@reddit
i dont know where you heard this but it is not the claim. the claim is that very few europeans converted, having about 80% of the population of jews not breed outside of other jews. if no europeans converted there would not be enough to make a visible distinction between the different types of jews.
interestingly though, now that differnt type of jews are intermingaling, they are looking exceedingly similar to palestinians, further demonstrating the fact they any origin of palestinians is probably related to the jews as well.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
So when Ivanka Trump converted, does that make her Jewish or non-Jewish? Will her kids only have 25% Levantine DNA? What if their kids married converts? Oh my god! The whole argument seems to be collapsing!
It’s fine, though. Everyone knows it’s rubbish. It’s just that the original argument, “we’re European colonialists and we have the right to do this” doesn’t wash any more. (You did know that was the original argument for Zionism, right?)
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
So when Ivanka Trump converted, does that make her Jewish or non-Jewish? Will her kids only have 25% Levantine DNA? What if their kids married converts? Oh my god! The whole argument seems to be collapsing!
It’s fine, though. Everyone knows it’s rubbish. It’s just that the original argument, “we’re European colonialists and we have the right to do this” doesn’t wash any more. (You did know that was the original argument for Zionism, right?)
AsterJ@reddit
It actually is. You're taking the side of the colonizers.
Paquetty@reddit
Laughable hasabara that did nothing to combat my points. You disgust me.
AsterJ@reddit
You didn't even say anything. You just take the side of the colonizers.
rattleandhum@reddit
Wrong. Jews are native to what is now Iraq -- the kingdom of Judea was 'promised to them by god' in a book written by schizophrenic epileptics 3000 years ago.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
We should've expelled them a bit further maybe we wouldn't be in this mess, amirite?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
There was never any looting by Hamas.
All of Gaza is under total surveillance all the time.
They could never produce visual evidence of looting.
HockeyHocki@reddit
so those 100 trucks of aid that dissapeared overnight were stolen by the IDF then? This sub is rapidly going down the toilet
redelastic@reddit
You have an Israeli media outlet saying Israel are providing weapons to non-Hamas gangs - and this is your take?
Change your flair to Israel, you bootlicker.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Biden adviser? his doctor? Wtf are you even on about
Dead handy your Hamas pals forget to wear military outfits, can't pin anything on them. Sure even if they did apologists like you would probably claim they're just idf actors.
redelastic@reddit
No, Biden's former top adviser on Israel gave an interview to CNN this week and said he saw no evidence of Hamas stealing aid.
Plenty of evidence that criminal gangs are stealing aid with the support of Israel, as reported in Israeli media:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/05/israel-accused-of-arming-palestinian-gang-who-allegedly-looted-aid-in-gaza
How's the weather in Tel Aviv?
HockeyHocki@reddit
Lmao you really think your Hamas buddies are above stealing from their own people. The group that straps suicide vests onto special needs kids.
Hamas bombed the shit out of Palestinians evacuating north Gaza, and news doing the rounds now is it was Hamas mortar fire that killed those civilians making their way to the GHF centre, what a surprise. They are scum and the Hamas cosplayers on this sub are up there with them
kapsama@reddit
You're always welcome to return to Hasbara HQ, r/worldnews.
I_Need_Citations@reddit
Citation needed on 100 trucks disappearing. You’re repeating Zionist propaganda.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Ah yes, the well known Zionist propaganda outlet UNRWA.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ypjd7gepmo
redelastic@reddit
But Israel says UNRWA is not to be trusted and full of Hamas.
Make up your mind on which false narrative you choose to believe at least.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
What 100 trucks?
There has not been 100 trucks in Gaza this entire time.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Ok so you're just a troll
waiver@reddit
Remember the 100 trucks that were stolen from a convoy? That was the Abu Shahab gang.
AugustWolf-22@reddit
As u/rattleandhum pointed out, this is, and has been a problem long before the current Netenyahu regime. The aim of ethnically cleansing all of Palestine has long been one shared by the majority of Zionists. Theodor Herzel himself described the plan for the region as being ''something colonial.'' in a letter he penned asking for help and advice from Cecil Rhodes. And when the moderate Zionists have actually been serious about wanting to implement a two-state solution (one that isn't just a temporary apartheid as illegal settlements slowly take more and more land…) they have faced dire consequences at the hands of their hardline compatriots, whose ultranationalist, genocidal views are sadly very common thought Israeli society thanks to extensive state propaganda.
postdiluvium@reddit
History repeats itself again.
These guys flew in a huge population of cats to solve the rat infestation problem that is a threat to the bird population. This should work out perfectly and the world will be at peace again.
x-winds@reddit
I posted this in the world news sub:
Wow! We were called conspiracy theorists in meaner words when we discovered this. We fucking knew Israel was doing this. But there's more. Israel formed this not to just oppose Hamas, but to destroy the United Nations and their successful and brilliant UNRWA program.
Getting rid of UNRWA has the potential to get rid of the Palestinians being categorize as refugees. A thorn in Israel's plan to exterminate all Palestinians in order to steal the rest of Palestine.
Well, I've got news for Israel. It ain't gonna happen. You've been exposed. Exposed as professional liars, thieves and murderers. Things are gonna change in a big way for this criminal enterprise and pariah state.
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
Is this not the third time you've posted this exact comment on several different subs?
x-winds@reddit
Nah, otherwise I would have said the others besides what I said in my first sentence.
Did you need my license and registration too? JK
Plate_Armor_Man@reddit
Spamming the same comment or post, I believe, is against either Reddit's TOS, or multiple subreddit's rules.
x-winds@reddit
Thanks for the tip. Nevertheless, it's not spamming at all. That would mean I've posted it all over the place. It's not. And it's not in three places as you said. Thanks again
karateguzman@reddit
They’ve been doing this for a while now. Gnna admit I’m lazy to find the sources now but Israel had been using clans in Gaza to oppose Hamas.
I think the idea of using those clans to administer aid had been floated about in the past so it’s funny (not funny) to see actually those clans were doing the opposite. I hadn’t read about them being deliberately armed, although Israel funding anti-Hamas militias in Gaza is like… yeah I might even be surprised if they weren’t.
Also read (again lazy to find sources) that some of the gunfights involving Hamas and “civilians” were actually clashes with these clans over control in certain areas. Wouldn’t surprise me if Israel have clashed with those clans too inadvertently, cos at the end of the day with Hamas un uniformed ur probably gonna think any looters are Hamas
Maybe Israel will make the argument that stealing stolen aid from Hamas is actually a good thing? Crime families have a strange way of being heroes in communities they control, whether it’s just PR or through mutual rejection of the establishment
waiver@reddit
I don't think there has been a single report of looters ever attacked by Israel, and the fact that they can drive around in armed groups and set up stalls to sell aid shows they are well coordinated with the IDF.
karateguzman@reddit
Well really my point is that they may have clashed with those clans anywhere in Gaza, under the impression that they were engaging with Hamas militants. If none of them are wearing uniforms then it’s not exactly easy to tell
I just used looters to refer to the clans but I’m sure they do more than just looting, cos well they existed before the war so they probably had/have their interest in other things
Abject-Investment-42@reddit
See also: US cooperating with Sicilian Mafia to ease the invasion of Southern Italy in 1943. It looked like a good idea at the time…
These things ALWAYS come back to bite you in the ass, though.
appealouterhaven@reddit
These guys live in a red zone in a fortified base. They go out and extort aid truck drivers and steal aid routed through traditional channels. To me, this looks like an attempt to strategically loot UN aid distribution leaving only the GHF as the only reliable source of food in the strip. When large numbers of people starve to death the Israelis will blame Hamas for looting trucks or blame the UN for being ineffective at distributing the aid, while the looting was done under the protection of the IDF.
Upper_Conversation_9@reddit
Yes, there have been many stories about how armed gangs supported by Israel, not Hamas, have been the ones stealing humanitarian aid.
Now we have an admission from Israel that this has been the case all along.
hughk@reddit
That is the thing. Hamas was successful in Gaza as they actually governed. They were imperfect, but they were much more than another gang.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Israel floated a post-Hamas plan in early 2024 that was basically a set of local Palestinian warlords sponsored by Israel, that Israel could control by putting them against each other. Looks like they haven’t quite given up that plan.
appealouterhaven@reddit
It is interesting to me that to prove they didnt shoot all the Palestinians in the Witkoff Massacre the Israelis provided drone video of an armed gang shooting people who couldnt pay for aid. They cant even let a WCK convoy go because they "suspected" militants were in the trucks; but they have drone footage of a dude with an AK controlling food distribution and they dont instantly vaporize him. I wonder if he works for Hamas or an armed gang under Israeli protection.
They are counting on people being lazy enough to just accept their story without examining it critically. With how many times they have lied immediately following an atrocity, I have no idea how people dont just immediately believe the opposite of what the IDF is claiming.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
They honestly believe that everyone is stupid enough to fall for it.
Revivaled-Jam849@reddit
(but they have drone footage of a dude with an AK controlling food distribution and they dont instantly vaporize him.)
Ok, then civilians panic and stampede each other after the guy gets vaporized. You'd blame Israel after as well.
appealouterhaven@reddit
Israel doesnt give a wet shit about killing a few dozen Palestinians even to target low level targets. You are making it seem like they restrained from attacking this criminal instead of the fact that they are actively supporting these groups that have been known to steal aid.
They targeted 3 separate WCK vehicles because they claimed a militant was there. If they were willing to kill clearly marked aid workers in that instance, why would they not kill some random starving Palestinians when they can clearly see a dude with an AK shooting at people?
waiver@reddit
Considering the gang was able to place a stall in Khan Younis, a city that has been under Israeli control for weeks now...
Upper_Conversation_9@reddit
This conflict is so polarized and the pro-Israel side is so dug-in that the IDF just needs to provide any explanation (even if false) and the pro-Israel side will latch on and accept it.
The Israeli government and IDF are a propaganda instrument in crisis and are really just treading water at the moment. They are trying to run out the clock.
waiver@reddit
They released a video of them distributing aid to promote themselves... except it was aid they had previously looted from the WFP as the flour sacks had their logo.
Waffles86@reddit
This is all part of the plan.
1) arm a militant group (Hamas) to make a two state solution impossible.
2) wait for militant group to attack
3) use attack as justification for stealing more land in the West Bank ( this time Gaza too). Push the remaining population into smaller and smaller pockets of land
4) repeat step one
Israel faces no downside here. They’re armed by America so no other region in the Middle East will do anything about it and the Palestinians have no real army to fight back with.
sarim25@reddit
The amount of times I've seen Zionists argue "oh but Hamas steals food"
This is crazy and on point for Israel. Since Israel propped Hamas in the 80s and 90s to counter the PLO at the time.
Best_Change4155@reddit
Counter-point: like this sub always says, they aren't stealing food, they are just distributing it.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
And then it’s like, you could stop them from stealing that food.
Kahzootoh@reddit
This isn’t too different from how Israel supported Hamas in the 80s to undermine the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
The Israelis could have peace and live their lives without fear, but they’re so fearful of a Palestinian state that they create enemies to perpetuate a cycle of conflict.
Gimpknee@reddit
Or how Israel sought to support the Christians in Lebanon and supported the SLA from the 70s to the Israeli pullout in 2000, after which a large number of SLA members received Israeli citizenship and/or asylum in mostly the U.S. and Germany.
beefprime@reddit
Provide support to Hamas to bolster opposition to Fatah/PLO, provide support to Gaza jihadists to bolster opposition to Hamas, the cycle of blowback rolls on.
mycargo160@reddit
Ah, the cycle begins again.
Israel essentially created Hamas to combat what came before it, which Israel essentially created to combat what came before that.
chimengxiong@reddit
Oh man, this is going to work out so extraordinarily well for all parties involved. Can't miss!
thrice_twice_once@reddit
The cycle they keep funding.
In a few years this same gang will target civilians across the border.
Their own civilians don't get it that they are pawns for their government's meat grinder.
Hamas too was once funded and supported by Israel.
artificial_ben@reddit
Craziness.
Israel actually first helped Hamas establish itself:
"Former Israeli officials have openly acknowledged Israel's role in providing funding and assistance to Yassin's network [which became Hamas] as a means of undermining the secular, left-wing Palestinian factions that made up the PLO"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
And in the last decade Netanyahu funded Hamas to continue to undermine the Palestinian Authority, although that didn't go very well:
"For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
HockeyHocki@reddit
No he didn't and that's not what that article claims either
artificial_ben@reddit
The article says this:
“ Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.”
So Israel under Netanyahu allowed Hamas to be funded via Qatari cash.
More full details here in Netanyahu approval for funding Hamas from CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl
HockeyHocki@reddit
Exactly
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
There are many analyses on how and why Israel permitted funds to flow into Gaza, but some include Hamas purposefully not responding to unprompted assassinations on the leaders of Islamic Jihad during truces and other Israeli attacks. This combined with constant assurances from the likes of Yahya Sinwar and other Hamas leaders that they want Gaza to become the "Singapore of the Mediterranean" likely lulled Israel into thinking that Hamas is no longer concerned with its anti-Israel message and just wants to cling onto power and could be neutralized with increased funds and "prosperity" for Gazans (which still lived on scraps and thus were still very angry). Eventually, Hamas attacked and Netanyahu is looking for someone to fill the same gap that Hamas might leave if it's gone. Unfortunately for him, Hamas's political and administrative ideology is so different that its members, their families, and most of the people in Gaza are probably not going to be affected. They don't share the Wahabist background that makes them susceptible to groups who affiliate with ISIS.
Zealousideal_You_938@reddit
I wonder what Palestinians think about joining a group like that.
Like, why do you join?
When you go to war with Israel, another shitty group will appear to replace you.
Far_Advertising1005@reddit
Hatred is a hell of a drug and the Knesset knows it. A secular, left-leaning PLO has the ability to actually undermine Israel on a diplomatic level at least, so fund the terrorist groups and ramp up the violence.
If you’re 12 years old and your whole family dies in a missile strike you are thinking about nothing but revenge all day long for the foreseeable future, and that’s perfect for indoctrination.
The_42nd_Napalm_King@reddit
This is what Israel fears the most and is the reason they continue to support non-secular terrorist groups on the ground. Even Hamas has recognized this, and has demanded his release.
In one of the first prisoner exchanges after October 7th, one of the Palestinian prisoners Hamas named was Marwan Barghouti, a secular political leader of Fatah that has been imprisoned for over 20 years, and who is seen by the Palestinians as their Nelson Mandela.
Not only is he popular among Palestinians, but he has advocated for a two state solution, where Palestine would be a secular nation that would be free of extremists. This is what Israel fears the most, a unified and stable political Palestine that would engage with foreign powers on a diplomatic level.
RedTulkas@reddit
If your family gets blown up or kneecapped in front of you and you have nothing to lose
2dudesinapod@reddit
Hamas has historically recruited orphans and Israel has never considered stopping the orphan supply
LowRevolution6175@reddit
This sub when TOI posts something that makes Israel loo good: "100% zionist propaganda, TOI is a paid hasbara shill"
This sub when Times of Israel posts something that makes Israel look bad: "I live for this"
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Yes? That’s called a hostile source.
When a person or groups reports something that is damaging to them, even if they don’t think so, it is likely more reliable and trustworthy.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
They’re reporting on a story that the leader of the opposition brought up and the source isn’t “the IDF says”
Upper_Conversation_9@reddit
In this case they are simply reporting what the former defense minister & opposition leader said. That person has no reason to lie.
When TOI reports what the IDF and Netanyahu says, the stories are often lies and propaganda.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
You when Hamas says that looters of aid are armed and backed by Israel: "Blood libel! Lies! Hamas loots aid".
You when TOI reports on the same thing a few days later:
Prosthemadera@reddit
So by that stupid logic giving weapons to Hamas would help save Israeli soldiers' lives, too.
BoniceMarquiFace@reddit
This has got to be the best idea I've ever heard
What could possibly go wrong when arming a terrorist group that is more extreme than the current government. That's how we managed to save Libya after all
I say Netanyahu gets a nobel peace prize
chaosfrfr@reddit
Hey its a bit antisemetic to just give him the nobel peace prize why dont we give him a nice luxury house in california or hawai for his efforts to establish peace in gaza just like obama?
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Nah, he'll go to Florida to go on a sweet vacation with his son
your_red_triangle@reddit
ah look the terrorist state of Israel creating more terrorists.
step 1) Arm and fund new gang,
Step 2) turn on new gang killing the leaders,
step 3) new gang fights back
step 4) Israel gets to kill everyone claiming defence
rinse and repeat until everyone is murdered.
People forget it the only reason Khamas came into power, was because the terrorist state backed and funded them.
waiver@reddit
Man, I really hope the Hasbaristas get paid extra for all the elaborate mental gymnastics required to justify their narratives and defend their positions.
So far the spins I have seen:
They are not ISIS they are Fatah (lol, no)
We have to give them an alternative (the alternative being ISIS)
Mordeth@reddit
How American...
[Edit] Apparently this post needs more characters in order to qualify. We all know it doesn't. Apparently this post needs more characters in order to qualify. We all know it doesn't. Apparently this post needs more characters in order to qualify. We all know it doesn't.
Yodamort@reddit
I first heard about this a week or so ago; I'm surprised Times of Israel of all papers is reporting on it (and that the Israeli government had the fucking audacity to basically admit to it).
The speed at which the mainstream media (even like, CNN, AP, Reuters, NYT, etc) have been doing a complete 180 from defending Israel tooth-and-nail to turning it into a pariah state internationally practically overnight is shocking, for several reasons. Not only does it demonstrate that they were fully aware of what was going on and still running cover for it the whole time (a repulsive example of manufacturing consent), but it shows how dramatically the media alters public opinion.
It also raises the question - why now? The answer, I think, is a dangerous one - they know the outcry against the genocide can no longer be contained, so they're going to try and pin everything on Netanyahu, and act as if everything is magically resolved when he's gone. Hopefully, the genocide has created such widespread disillusionment with Zionism internationally that this will be ineffective, but there's a terrifying risk of things going "back to normal", where Israel continues crushing the Palestinians (slowly) while people act as if nothing is happening.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Israel, the US, the UK, and France have a long history of helping and funding radical jihadist groups in MENA countries (usually against secular regimes). This isn't anything new.
Zealousideal_You_938@reddit
I wonder what Palestinians think about joining a group like that.
Like, it happened with Hamas and now it'll happen with this one.
Why do you join?
When you go to war with Israel, another shitty group will appear to replace you.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Don't compare collaborators and looters of aid with Hamas.
The leader of the Abu Shabab gang for example was disowned by his family recently.
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