Turks, do you feel culturally closer to Greeks or to Lebanese?

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vbd71@reddit

Don't forget to ask Greeks if they feel closer to the Turks or the Lebanese.

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orestaras@reddit

Greece has no borderline with Lebanon, but I guess if yopu ask greeks between Turkey and New Zealand they would answer New Zealand

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I mean it depends, if you're a chronically online greek that has seen turkish people on the internet you're not deluded, if you're a 50 year old boomer you probably think you're living in a completely different society

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Chance_Ad5731@reddit

Tahmin ettim de kendi ağzından da duymak istedim.

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Elsek1922@reddit

Our media kept telling us "We and Greeks lived together for centuries we arent so diffrent" in early 2000s

Some Turkish tv series had Greek charecters to "teach racist charecter this lesson"

I know it was mostly AKP BS but

on Average Turks and Greeks interact more than Turks and Lebanese.

Tourism etc

Last time i saw your average Turk was talking about Lebanese is when the Israel started attacking and people were calling for THY to stop flights and cancel visas to avoid a second wave of Arab migrants.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

poor Turkish media, if you only knew..

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Elsek1922@reddit

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fyate@reddit

what a greek MILF

this is not surprising because the german media group axel-springer became a partner in the media company by buying a part of the turkish media group doğan holding.

since then, greek characters started to appear in the series owned by the media company between 2004-2012.

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orestaras@reddit

Dude, you have a strange taste on MILFs

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johndelopoulos@reddit

she looks Levantine

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volcano156@reddit

most greek women look like this. and she has greek roots, it says her grandmother's name is Sophia on vikipedia haha

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johndelopoulos@reddit

that is not true, most of Greek women look nothing like this. And if she has partly Greek roots, then I guess that other roots of her are Levantine

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fyate@reddit

btw she has greek root

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Elsek1922@reddit

I dunno i see cross and accent I'm convinced

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fyate@reddit

germany is the only country I dislike, they act against turkey with all their power

I dont really know if there are TV series/movies or characters in greece that show turkey and turks in a positive, or I dont think there are people who think they are turkish. but the reverse exists in turkey, I think the turkey-greece relationship is one-sided. am I wrong?

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fyate@reddit

this is not surprising because the german media group axel-springer became a partner in the media company by buying a part of the turkish media group doğan holding.

since then, greek characters started to appear in the series owned by the media company between 2004-2012. i really dont know if a turkish character has ever been portrayed positively in a greek TV series or movies before, if so please enlighten me.

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orestaras@reddit

Is this why they call him Erdoganopoulos?

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Crazy_Rub_4473@reddit

Lebanon. Lebanon's traditional rugs, clothes etc are much closer to us.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Cuisine too

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volcano156@reddit

This is a meaningless question. It varies from region to region

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sertack@reddit

idk much about Lebanese culture but i think only Southeastern Turkey would fell culturally closer to them than Greece.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

so does any part of Turkey, maybe except Eastern thrace with western thrace in particular

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sertack@reddit

I’ve seen 5 hate comments from you under this post in the past 3 minutes.. Calm down, we’re not obsessed with your culture. I live in western Turkey so Greece is 200 km away, Lebanon is 1500 km. Obviously, I feel closer to the one that’s practically next door.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

how exactly is that obvious? Morocco is next-door to Spain, but Moroccans are able to realize that they have more in common with next-door Egypt than Spain. At least name the things that would make WesternTurkey closer to Greece than to Lebanon, with examples

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guywiththemonocle@reddit

all "your" cuisine. idk don't you know anyone who is baptized in yogurt

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johndelopoulos@reddit

ok then, name some Turkish variants of the following Greek dishes: Pastitsio, pasto chourino me Avga, Choiromeri, Apaki, Syglino Manis, kokoras me Hillopites, Choirino me kastano, Gourounopoula Fournou, Sofrito, Bourdetto, Matsata, Skioufihta. If "all" of our cuisine, and especially cuisine of Southern Greece and the islands, comes from Turkey, it would be easy to find comparable dishes from Turkey to the ones above

Also, name a few Turkish-Greek shared dishes that do not exist in Lebanon. To name some (of the many) that Turkey and Lebanon shares which Greece lack: Lahmacun, Kunefeh, Hummus, Tavuk Goktsu, Ayran

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guywiththemonocle@reddit

checked out some of the food in your list, I havent seen any of them in TUrkey maybe some people eat it idk. I dont understand the point of your comment, especially since it is inaccurate. (we also dont claim hummus)

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johndelopoulos@reddit

inaccurate?? You did confirm me being right, by being unable to find counterparts of these Greek dishes in Turkey, while one comment above you claimed that all of our cuisine is same as Turkish.

Hummus has been long claimed by Turks, stop lying, and these are only a few examples,name any Turkish dish (except Manti and Hunkyar beyendi) and I can ensure you I can name an Arabic variant

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Jnyl2020@reddit

Pastitsio is a lasagna rip-off, some of these are cold cuts, one looks close to pastırma actually, chestnut cookies looks nice I'm definitely gonna try them, skewering and animal and roasting on fire is not really a distinctive cuisine, sofrito is spanish (hence the name) and bourdetto is italian, and some pasta dishes...

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johndelopoulos@reddit

"Pastitsio is a lasagna rip-off" didn't ask where it comes from, asked if you have a Turkish variant to name

"one looks close to pastırma actually"

neither has anything in common with pastirma, apart from both looking like raw meats, like many other processed meats in the world

"chestnut cookies"

ok you probably googled something wrong, I posted traditional pork with chestnut, laconian way

"skewering an animal and roasting on fire is not really a distinctive cuisine"

it is, depending on the procedure, and meat kind

"sofrito is spanish (hence the name) and bourdetto is italian"

both exist equally in Greek, that's why I named them. Can you name a Turkish variant?

"and some pasta dishes..."

Again, can you name for each of them a Turkish variant?

you did somehow well on describing some, but I don't see how you answered the freaking question

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sertack@reddit

Turks and Greeks lived side by side in Anatolia for a thousand years, up until just a century ago. Can you say the same for Moroccans and Spaniards? Look at how ridiculous your comparisons are. There are no Spanish monuments in Morocco, but I have ancient Greek cities just 40 km from my house. And no, your ancestors didn’t build those, they were living in current mainland Greece. Mine did.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

the greeks you refer to are not the entire Greek population, but a small part of them, the Anatolian Greeks, who are HEAVILY Arabic influenced for Greek standards.

Having ancient Greek cities nearby, doesn't change the fact that your great grandpa wrote using an Arabic alphabet, wore buggy pants, your old architecture has pointed and horseshoe (both arabic) arches and bey windows, you consume lahmacun and kunefeh, and a million of other things that your ancestors brought fromArabs and Persians when settled in Anatolia, "40 kms from ancient greek ruins".

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sertack@reddit

Your Great Grandpa also used an Arabic alphabet. You forgot that your great grandpa was an Ottoman citizen just like mine :d Lahmacun and künefe are not local to Izmir, those dresses were pretty much common all over Ottoman empire, your Great Grandpa also wore a fez. What is your point?

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johndelopoulos@reddit

by making a stupid statement it won't make it real. no ancestor of me ever used the Arabic alphabet, whether he was an Ottoman citizen (which you can't know) or not. Greek language has never been written by any other alphabet than the Greek one, your language rather has been written using the Arabic alphabet since ever, until 100 years ago

Even if you were right on fez (again you are not), no ancetor of me wore buggy pants, turban, I think you have to update your knowledge on the ottoman empire, which you ignore that didn't ignore all of Greece, and Greece got its independence from,some 200 years ago. Greeks under the Ottomans wore Fustanella, and a black scarf¨:

https://foresies-paradosi.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/mani-andriki-paradosiaki-foresia-peloponnisos-330x497.jpg

fez was common in a minority of "higher classes", and as i said, fez only.

Lahmacun and kunefeh are common in Turkey, regardless from if a place lacks them or not (don't make me talk about your famous clock, made of Arabic horseshoe arches, another common thing with us, lol)

my point is that, except language, everything you have, is shared with Arabs. only language differentiates you, and even that with 1/5 of vocabulary Arabic

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Jnyl2020@reddit

What a dumb argument to make. Lahmacun and Künefe has only became popular in the last 15-20 years in western Turkey. Not that it matters.

And Greek in Arabic script exists of course. It is called Aljamiado.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I didn't even mention "western Turkey" when I talked about these two dishes in particular, but if that makes you feel better and you have a problem with these two dishes, you can name literally any dish that you think western Turkey and Greece share, and I will name you an Arabic variant. At the very same time, there are hundreds of Turkish dishes, from Northwestern to Southeastern parts of the country, which are shared with Lebanon, but are unknown to either most of Greece, or all of the country

"aljamiado"

lol are you drunk?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljamiado

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Jnyl2020@reddit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Aljamiado

Yes it is very logical to think that a Turk from Mosul would have similar dishes with Greeks. Good thinking there.

If you know Turkish cuisine that well why don't you give some examples of Turkish food that is eaten in west?

By your logic English should be considered Indian, because they eat shit tons of indian food.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

"Greek Aljamiado has a long and diverse tradition as well, as far back as the 13th century, with poems written Jalal al-Din Rumi and his son Sultan Walad in Greek but in Arabic script.^([1])

This tradition existed among some Greek Muslims from Crete as well as Epirote Muslims in Ioannina who wrote their Cretan Greek in the Arabic alphabet."

So, no Greek ever wrote in Arabic, As the article makes clear. Next?

"If you know Turkish cuisine that well why don't you give some examples of Turkish food that is eaten in west?"

I did give

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Jnyl2020@reddit

It's a bit weird both claiming good Greek-Arab relations and being afraid of Greek in Arabic script. You think no one really has written in thousands of years? You're a bit delusional mate.

Muslim Greeks of Crete are Greek so there you go.

Lahmacun and Kunefe are not traditionally western food as I told you in my first comment. They are the last 15 year's fashion.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I am not afraid of anything, you are just rediculously unable to understand that your narrative makes no sense, what the article you posted makes clear is that muslim Greek speakers used this alphabet in a specific period, which is funny to generalize to the greek population, that has never done. Turks on the contrary wrote ONLY in Arabic until a specific year. Who is the delusional here?

"Muslim Greeks of Crete" are not my ancestors, even if we consider them Greek, whhich we do not.

Ok, here you go:

Izmir Kofte/Kafta Bil Sanieh

Pide/Fatayer

Kabak Cicegi Dolmasi/Kousa Mahshi

Midye Dolma (do not know the Arabic name, but I have eaten a variant in lebanon

Sakizli Muhallebi/ Mahalabiya

Are those enough? I can recall more from my travels, if you need more tell me and I will post them

"So you don't forget your own words again. Because I feel like next you are going to say no one from Athens has ever written in Arabic script or something."

Let's say no Greek person, I am not responsible if random kebabs that once lived in specific parts of Greece, used any kind of Alphabet to write whatever they wanted

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guywiththemonocle@reddit

yogurt, baklava, "gyros", sarma, dolma, "zeybebiko", cacik. Tho we did take raki from your uzo. So step down from that high horse, stop being butthurt, and make peace with your neighbors

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johndelopoulos@reddit

"yogurt, baklava, "gyros", sarma, dolma, "zeybekiko", cacik. Tho we did take raki from your uzo. "

Forget that Ouzo is native and traditional to one island only (lesvos), it is about as close to Turkish raki as Lebanese ARAK, plus etymologically less relevant, and ALL the things you named above exist in Lebanon, IN A CLOSER FORM to Turkish variants (see beef/chicken doner-shawarma vs pork Gyros) than the Greek ones. Lol Baklava even was invented in Lebanon/Syria, and passed in Turkey later

At the same time, there are thousands of things that Lebanon and Turkey shares, which Greece for the most parts or all parts of the country does not have.

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SkidPub@reddit

Theres only very few who would want to make "war". Its hard to get past history and the attrocities happened in your occupied country from all these years, which im sure you are oblivious to. From your POV nothing similar happened, just war. Theres so many things. Having a president spewing outright hate and expansionist ideas, converting a religious monument into a mosque and disrespecting borders doesnt reflect peace as well.

You can say some people are on their "high horse" but these words are a double edged sword.

You cant simply rob someone and then expect him to shake your hand and be friends with afterwards.

Though id like ofc for both countries to get past all this in the future, time is needed and defo not voting for people like Erdogan. Showing a willingess to change and not reminisce of old blue countries and glory. Greeces elected and representative party does not do things like that.

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Zergonipal6@reddit

Doesnt matter, some Turks are closer to Arabs, some to Greeks.

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sertack@reddit

Dude, you clearly have zero knowledge about Turkey. You’re just barking like a mad dog in the comments, making nonsense claims. Have you ever even been to Turkey? Do you know any Turkish city outside of Istanbul? Ever heard of any town on the Turkish Riviera? You’re so stuck in your inferiority complex screaming “nooo we can’t look like Turks, they’re Arabs nooo” over and over again.

As a Turk living in Izmir, I’ve actually visited your country and honestly, we’re almost the same. Having this conversation with you is like talking to a brick wall.

r/askbalkans or any Balkan sub isn’t for you. Go hang out in r/europe or whatever Western subs you’re dying to fit into. Don’t bother replying to this either.

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fyate@reddit

lavuk sizi ezikliyor verdiğiniz cevaba bak mk yazık ya laf mı anlatmaya çalışıyorsun bir de

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sertack@reddit

Bir tane aptal oe Yunan yüzünden tüm Yunanlardan mı nefret edecem kardeş? Eziklesin git diğer yorumlarımı da oku anlarsın

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fyate@reddit

nefret duy demiyorum, böyle tiplere verilecek cevap belli, gidip laf anlatmaya çalışmak anlamsız

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Fallorongor@reddit

If you actually did research you would have know that why Turks in the west would feel closer to Greeks and to Lebanon.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

I mean, Lebanon is not as backwards as you think, in fact, far from it. Lebanon has a large Christian population that are totally part of the country(even their flag has a Christian symbol). I would say South Eastern Turks are way more conservative and religious than Lebanese .

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sertack@reddit

I don’t think Lebanon is a backwards country at all in fact, I really like it. I’m aware it has the largest Christian population in the Middle East too. I just mentioned that I’m more familiar with Greek culture because I’ve visited Greece before and I live in İzmir, which is very close to it. I simply don’t know much about Lebanese culture.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Do you think Lebanese culture would be familiar as well?

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sertack@reddit

My uni friend is from Hatay province and Christian. I honestly don't think you'd be able to tell her apart from a Lebanese person. Even though we have some differences, we share very similar cultures, and that's why I believe our culture is quite close to Lebanon's as well. We all lived under the Ottoman Empire for 500 years and we're Mediterranean people. Our cultures are definitely familiar.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

How about Georgia? They don't get much comparison from what I've seen

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sertack@reddit

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier. I got caught up arguing with a Turk-hating Greek in the comments.

I actually visited Georgia when I was a kid — it’s a beautiful country. In my opinion, it doesn’t really feel similar to Turkey or Turkish culture. There’s a noticeable cultural gap.

Most Turks go there for cheap electronics or to gamble, to be honest

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Which culture would you say Georgian is more similar to?

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sertack@reddit

Eastern Europe i guess

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

What makes you think that ? How about Armenia?

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sertack@reddit

Russian influence and their will to join EU probably. Armenia is literally same with East Turkey but Christian. But in recent years, the Kurdish population in the region has grown rapidly. it’s approaching 20 million and because of that, I think Eastern Anatolia has drifted away from Armenian cultural influence.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Armenia doesn't have Russian influence you think? It very much does

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sertack@reddit

It does but half of the population of Eastern Anatolia was Armenia back in the days so their culture still dominant there

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

I wouldn't even geenralize as Southeastern Turkey. I'd say it's Hatay - Urfa mostly. Those cities have immense Arab influence.

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Daniel_the_Hairy_One@reddit

As a irreligious Turk; Greece easily.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Ok cool , which city are you from? And what is your background?( I know you are Turk and consider yourself as such, but are you of Balkan origin or native Anatolian or Yörük?).

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johndelopoulos@reddit

that he wants to be closer to a European, than to an Arab with whom his ancestors shared even a similar Alphabet some 100 years ago

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Your alphabet is copy of middle eastern alphabet. Your culture is copy of phonican culture lol

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johndelopoulos@reddit

except that there was no "middle east" in the times of phoenecians, and whatwe got from Phoenecians was spread to the rest of Europe later, but abandoned in the middle east itself, after Arabic invasions

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

And there was no European neither. You guys were considered “Turk” until 19 century lol

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johndelopoulos@reddit

well, of course we were not, where did you get that strange idea from? lol

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

From your fellow Europeans

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Our "fellow Europeans" have the strange idea that we were considered Turks until 19th century? I would really love to see a relevant source

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Every ottoman citizen considered Turk that time

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johndelopoulos@reddit

every Ottoman citizen was considered an Ottoman citizen, not an ethnic turk, as much as not every British citizen (Indians and Pakistanis, to name a few) was not considered English.

Also, update your knowledge and inform yourself that not all of Greece has been under ottomans, thus a considerable number of what are today greece's citizens have ancestors (partly or fully) that were not under the Ottoman empire

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Not really. They were all Türk for the Europeans. Here is source

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrian_Table_of_Peoples

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johndelopoulos@reddit

It says Turk OR GREEK as you can clearly see (so clearly doesn't call Greeks "Turk"), and it is one painting for which the article has a lot of criticism. It nowhere confirms your point.

So again, do you have any actual relevant source?

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Honditarrr@reddit

And where did get the idea that a Turk cannot feel close to Greeks? lol

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Putrid-Try-9872@reddit

Bro everything goes back to Sumerians!

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

I know but the Greeks stole middle eastern culture like the alphabet, mythology, religion than act like that’s western civilization lol

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Mestintrela@reddit

The alphabet was invented by greeks. It is the first in the world as far we know.

The Phoenician was an abjad, much like arabic script.

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Your first letter Alfa comes from Alef

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Mestintrela@reddit

And?? Alef was a consonant. Alpha is a vowel. That makes the Phoenician script an abjad.

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Dosnt look like Arabic script to me

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

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Mestintrela@reddit

Oh my god...is your reading comprehension at the level of preschool or what? Jesus Christ

Both the Phoenician script and the Arabic script are ABJADS.

The Greek script is an alphabet. The first alphabet in the world. Get it now or should I draw it in pictures?

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Explain Me why yours consider alphabet not theirs ?

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Mestintrela@reddit

Because an alphabet BY DEFINITION has both vowels and consonants.

The Phoenician Script is an abjad because it doesnt have signs for vowels. This is the definition of an abjad.

The Phoenician is the first abjad, the Greek is the first alphabet.

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Than why al says different ?

The Phoenician Alphabet. The Phoenician Alphabet was an early form of writing developed by the ancient Phoenician civilization and is one of the first known modern alphabets

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Mestintrela@reddit

Who the F cares. Only mindless people trust blindly whatever ai tells them. AI can tell you the sun revolves around the earth, and you would believe it?

Feel free to open any encyclopedia, lexicon or philology book to find out what an abjad is and what an alphabet is.

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

https://phoenician.org/alphabet/

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Mestintrela@reddit

Yawn..come back to me when you find a brand new definition of an abjad

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

They say alphabet. Why are you angry at me lol

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Mestintrela@reddit

Who? Who says that abjad is the same as alphabet?

Lmao angry? 😅 I want to see how much longer are you are willing to push this gaslighting

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Did you opened the website?

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Mestintrela@reddit

A rando website? Here is wikipedia's article.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Script type: abjad

Honey, no matter the gaslighting the misinformation and the random ai and links, facts are facts, definitions are definitions.

An abjad is an abjad and doesnt have vowels. The phoenicians didnt, too bad. They didnt invent an alphabet.

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Putrid-Try-9872@reddit

I thought mythology was paleo balkan, not middle eastern?

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Not really. A lot of Greeks gods and goddesses copy of Phoenicians gods like Astarte became Athena , Adonis became Adonis. Adonis mean lord in Phoenician language.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

I don't you need to be on this sub to be honest, since you dismiss alot of accurate views and are just a bit ignorant. There isn't really a point in debating with someone that thinks Turks are more like Omanis than Greeks

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johndelopoulos@reddit

if you have any argument on how Turks are more like Greeks than like Lebanese, feel free to write them

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Lemonade_7618@reddit

You don't even have arguments for why a Turk cannot feel closer to Greeks than to Lebanese.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Oh, you may be right in a way. I do apologise. I was in Athens recently, and I was not reminded of Turkey when I was in Athens (I have visited Turkey). I would definitely say are influences without a doubt(in food, music and even dances) but the society is very different.

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Zergonipal6@reddit

Calm down kid. If he feels closer to Greeks then no one can question that.

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Daniel_the_Hairy_One@reddit

From Izmir, my Turkish side is half Anatolian Turkish and half (north)-Macedonian Turkish.

Greece simply has a lot of cultural things which are so incredibly recognizable for a secular Turk. Things such as Zeibekkiko, Dolmadakia, musical instruments such as the kanonaki and the Sazi.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

all the things you named are common in lebanon, at the same time that "Greek raki" is something technically not existing, while "kanonaki" is not an istrument outside Anatolian Greek tradition (and exists in Lebanese tradition) and Saz is not an instrument in ANY part of Greek tradition

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Fallorongor@reddit

You deserver those downvotes.

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Zergonipal6@reddit

Do not get butthurt for downvotes. He can feel closer to Greeks if he wants.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Do you think a Yörük Turk would feel culturally closer to the Balkans/Greece or to Central Asia?

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Daniel_the_Hairy_One@reddit

Hard to say, but I suspect the Balkans. Though I don't think they would feel affinity with Attica and the Peloponnese in Greece. There seemed to have been significant Yörük migration to the Balkans from Anatolia, so there are definitely some kinship ties between the two regions.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Why asking about Lebanon vs Greece, instead of Lebanon vs other Balkan countries, which have more in common with Turkey than Greece does?

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chunek@reddit

Wasn't Greece part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries? Also, you are neighbours.. I don't claim you are similair, but it is a fair question, no? You even call turkish coffee "greek coffee", a bit strange, imo.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

not all, and not for as long as nearby countries were. Other nearby Balkan countries (which I also do not say they are similar to Turkey) have spent as a whole, and for a bigger period, under ottomans

I don't call any coffee other than freddo "greek" :)

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chunek@reddit

Ok maybe not the longest, but it was still roughly 400 years, if I am not wrong. Which is maybe not a lot for you, since Greece is way older, but it still is comparable to other countries. Bulgaria spent around 500 years, Albania is somewhere between 400 and 500, Serbia also roughly 400 years, etc.

Ah, so like a greek version of iced cappuccino, sounds nice. I had the regular coffee in mind, that is prepared with a "briki", the one called "ellinikos kafes".

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Greece in particular, for the most part was for 100-360 years under ottomans, depending upon region, and specific parts of it have never been. Also, not only rule lasted shorter, but also ended earlier than in the others

Got it, but i agree that calling this coffee "Greek" is wrong :)

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chunek@reddit

Interesting, thank you.

I thought that after Constantinople fell, everything went downhill and that by the end of the 15th century, they already started expanding further north. Your history is so vast, that it is hard to know everything in detail ;)

I have to learn more and visit Greece.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

no problem! feel free to ask me anything!

In fact the last land in Greece that became Ottoman was as late as 1700s (the island of Tinos), meanwhile specific parts were never ruled by ottomans (officially Ionian islands, and unofficially Mani peninsula)

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chunek@reddit

You have so many islands, no wonder they couldn't get them all.

But jokes aside, how did these islands survive? I guess they are big enough to have agriculture and livestock, but I can imagine it would be too risky to sail off, looking for trade, and meet an Ottoman ship instead.

I know some islands also belonged to the Venetian Republic, for example you mentioned the Ionian islands, and they had many conflicts with the Ottomans, since the 14th century. How is the Venetian Republic viewed by Greeks today? Were they allies, conquerors, something inbetween, or something else entirely?

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LexYeuxSansVisage@reddit

Greece and Cyprus very similar to Lebanon. Greeks monks look like middle eastern Christians

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

Levantine cuisine is amazing and Turkish cuisine definitely has elements of Levantine cuisine, but cultural similarity is limited with the cuisine in my opinion. When it comes to religion Lebanon is a fascinatingly diverse place, unlike Turkey. Also, Lebanon had a culturally impactful French colonial era. I'd say Lebanon's cultural dissimilarities to Turkey is immense.

On the other hand with Greeks we have lots of similarities aside from religion. Classical Ottoman architecture and music has been influenced by Byzantine architecture and music. Streets of Athens look like streets of multiple Turkish cities. Hit pop songs is converted into the Greek or Turkish version almost immediately after they are released.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Streets of Athens, speaking of the 1950s blocks look similar to many cities in Lebanon as well. If you refer to traditional architecture, not only there is no resemblance between the southern european architecture of the historical center of Athens, and any part of Turkey, but also no actual part of Arabic architecture that turkish tradition lacks: Horseshoe and pointed arches, sahnisi and mashrabiya, all lacked in most of Greece

same with music, practically the only difference between turkish and Arabic music is that Turkish has more microtonals, which means technically it is more oriental (in a weird way) than Arabic is, otherwise same modes. Greek music on the other hand, has way too many western (which means non-byzantine as well) elements that Turkish music lacks.

if you went to turkey some 100 years ahgo, and passed the border with any arabic community, only language would differ

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

“if you went to turkey some 100 years ago, and passed the border with any arabic community, only language would differ”

Ah yes, Turks and Arabs were basically the same, if you ignore the centralized Ottoman administration, different religious institutions, language reforms, attire, music traditions, and educational systems. Just a minor detail: one side became a nation state, the other got carved up by France and Britain.

Regarding Greek music: rebetiko was born in İzmir cafés and refugee neighborhoods, deeply tied to Ottoman makam and instruments like the oud and kanun. Don't pretend Greek music dropped out of Vienna. And listen to some Byzantine hymns and Turkish classical pieces.

As for architecture, I’d love to see someone confidently tell the difference between the neoclassical houses of Ayvalık and those in Plaka. Even 1950s apartment blocks scream “we all used the same Italian contractors.”

The harder you try to deny any cultural overlap, the more it sounds like you're overcompensating. Which, in itself, is oddly… familiar LOL

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johndelopoulos@reddit

the ottoman administration was above those Arabs as well, so basically it is the same. Attire of Turkey is not different AT ALL from the one of Levantine Arabs, same buggy pants, etc. For the rest yes but, I already said except language,

Regarding Greek music, ok, you are not the first Turk I talk to, so I am aware that in the consciousness of Turks (especially Western Turks) Greeks= Anatolian Greeks. But you should be aware that there is an 80% of Greek people, who have nothing in common with Anatolia.

Oud and Kanun, existed in Anatolian Greek music AS MUCH AS in Arabic. 80% of Greeks, however, have background from areas where both istruments are unknown. Also, have you bothered listening to Arabic Maqams? if yes, I would really like to know the differences from Turkish, beyuond Turkish having more microtonals (thus being more oriental). Greek music is "dropped" out of many directions, and Bavaria is close to Vienna, among them. Modern Greek music is to a high extend based on Byzantine, but not fully. There is a strong part of Greek music based fully on Western scales, mostly from italy and to a lower extend Bavaria, another part which is pentatonic, again non-oriental, and finally, if we focus on the fully just intonation part of Greek music, which has some overlap with Turkish/Arabic, it has at the same time several harmonic, melodic and istrumental INFLUENCES from the West, making it having a different, less oriental sound. Only the music of Anatolian Greeks, was identical to middle eastern

Do you need relevant links?

plaka and ayvalik? imo really? The two traditions are pretty distinct:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXZVx0AR8zv8vTGbQk4ByBX3tkIhbKSdRQxQ&s

https://visitplaka.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/DSC_0114-681x1024.jpg
the southern european and neoclassical influences above are clear, while ayvalik has the typical ottoman traits, especially sahnisi, or when it doesn't, it is simplistic, lacking any Southern European influence:

https://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/ly/uploads/images/2020/10/15/65384.jpg

you will not see such bey windows in Plaka, or Athens, and Southern Greece or most of Greek islands

no need to go to further, more urbanized grandiose things (panepistimiou or stadiou districts etc)

it's fine if "trying hard" is familiar, but as you can see I can give a lot of things that seperate us, while when you try to prove how you differ from Arabs and are closer to Greece, you end up with examples of things that a tiny part of Greeks (anatolian Greeks) share with Turks AS MUCH AS with Arabs

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

Yeah, I ain't reading that

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johndelopoulos@reddit

You don't want to change your distorted view of reality I guess, good luck, or better say, good lack

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

No dude, I don't have the mental energy to have a useless Reddit argument with a Greek teenager. That's all. Some of us have jobs to attend to

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johndelopoulos@reddit

But most of all, you lack the energy ton respond, when you too many links debunking your views, and it's even worse when a teenager debunks you this way

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vincenzopiatti@reddit

Did you just learn the meaning of the word "debunk"? Twice in two lines is good practice.

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Lemonade_7618@reddit

I think you have a distorted view of reality.

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Dontspeaktome19@reddit

It's the same to me to be honest but I also never had Lebanese friends to know their culture. We come from central northern anatolia so the culture is also quite different to western coastal Turkey. People there are almost identical with Greeks culturally I think. Someone from Hatay is probably culturally closer to Lebanese

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Kapoutsinos@reddit

Araplar

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

User name and country checks out

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Inside-Equipment-559@reddit

I had some friends from Levantine region, so I can say that I found some same traits with them, but that's all. Most of us feels to align themselves to the Greek people.

My origins came from a small town from Western-Inner Anatolia and the city has conservative population. Still, I can say that these people behaves more like Greek more than Arabian people.

Btw, it's funny to see some people "No, you're not like Greek! You're should feel more like Arab!". "Feeling" is a subjective thing, so let don't dictate people to how they feel.

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fyate@reddit

to say that turks have all greek dna and at the same time say that turks are closer to lebanese is a very good example of anti-turkism as you will see in the comments. i really wonder how their minds deal with this dualistic cognitive dissonance.

at least make enmity in a self-consistent manner so that we can respect you. even if you are going to be hostile, do it in a manly way.

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ombustman@reddit

Same distance for me. My mom is Cretan and my dad is from Tarsus ( basically levant lol)

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PotentialBat34@reddit

I honestly couldn't care less to get compared to both. Turks are more or less unique in the geography they live in. Voted Lebanon though, because Toum is bomb.

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Budget_Insurance329@reddit

I would feel similar to either of them in different ways,

With a Greek I could communicate in a way I used to, cook together, talk about political topics that we are both more aware

With a Lebanese I could talk about Islam or religion in general, things about Middle East or oriental music.

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Live-Ice-2263@reddit

aegean is similar to greece, center and east is more similar to lebanese

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Only-Dimension-4424@reddit

I don't think center feel close them, only southeast Turkey has similar vibe with levant

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

I would say Antalya (the city) is like a mix of Lebanon and Greece. But yes, other Aegean regions are definitely close to Greece. Bodrum and Kaş remind me of Greece

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Natural_Sell_7309@reddit

As someone whose mother's side immigrated from Serres,

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CallofMargin@reddit

You're asking the question in the wrong place. Reddit turks are a minority that doesn't represent turkey. Whenever they have to choose between two options, they always prefer the one that's closer to europe.

As someone who knows both countries, I can say that culturally, turkey is much closer to lebanon and iran than to greece

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VagHunter69@reddit

"Reddit Turks don't represent Turkey, but this random guy here does"

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CallofMargin@reddit

Random Guy doesn’t have a political agenda like the reddit turks

Random Guy speaks with data and facts

And Random Guy doesn’t like liars like this;

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Is your conclusion due to bias and orientalism or is it just personal experience? Just asking, and it's fine either way just be honest

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CallofMargin@reddit

Neither. I'm just talking about the realities.

Turkey has been governed by islamists for 20 years, and most turks continue to vote for them. But Reddit turks will tell you a very different story.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

So many Turks are against Erdoğan, no?

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CallofMargin@reddit

if this were true, how could Erdoğan have been in power for 20 years? Even the bloodiest dictators need to have public support. Although Erdoğan suppresses the opposition, most turks still support him

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

True. You are right. But bare in mind that many Turks abroad such as in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, France and Belgium heavily support him at most and have voted for him. So that also contributes to his power

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CallofMargin@reddit

last presidential election, Erdoğan received 400k votes from turks in germany and 100k from turks in france.

A total of 50 million voters cast their ballots in Turkey.

in short, the votes of diaspora turks do not significantly impact the outcome of elections in turkey. However, turkish users on reddit will try to convince you that the entire problem lies with the diaspora living abroad. Don’t trust any reddit turk ,most of them are lying

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

I think you are right. I wouldn't really call Turkish culture Mediterranean culture. It has some elements, but it's generally a mix of others plus Turkic and Central Asian.

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

Probably to both

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Ok-Demand8957@reddit (OP)

All I am going to say is Mia Khalifa

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neuralengineer@reddit

i thought she was arab american pstar. probably my turko clanmen don't know the difference