Honda Allegedly Forced to Kill CTR in Europe

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c0rbin9@reddit

The safety and pollutions regulations have steadily grown more stringent since they were first implemented over 50 years ago.

They are extreme, and getting more extreme. How much is enough? How much safety and low emissions is enough until we say it is enough and we still want some modicum of fun and user-serviceability in our vehicles?

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eirexe@reddit

I honestly don't get it either, I think 2010 era regulations were already more than enough, this + the classic car bans and the "paying per km" they are implementing in my country (spain) I'm starting to lose faith.

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Mediocre-Relative-72@reddit

There is no end to it. It will just keep going. I don't get why people are downvoting you in a car sub, but this is reddit and anything less than worship of excessive regulation is against the status quo.

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eirexe@reddit

I honestly don't get the need to tighten regulations further, I think the current EURO pollution regulations were already fine enough.

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ClintSexwood@reddit

I would take the "forced" with a huge grain of salt. Honda went from selling the FK8 Type R GT here in the UK from £35k to selling the FL2 for £56k. It was an insane increase and they even said at the beginning that the UK would be limited to 200 units before going back on that decision, but only after having sold all 200 cars. I suspect the car simply was not selling due to the price tag.

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PeterGator@reddit

It's selling quite easily even with the high price. They have been limiting the numbers artificially to avoid penalties.

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gt4rs@reddit

I'll admit I don't know the ins and outs of the regulations, but wasn't part of the reason for the price literally to discourage people from buying it, because it would increase their average emissions?

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coffee_sans_cream@reddit

This saddened me but also gives me hope that Honda will make some version of the Prelude that has some excitement for the Euro market.

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video-games12@reddit

What’s a CTR??

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Secuter@reddit

It makes sense I guess. Between fairly low sales numbers across Europe and emissions regulations, it'll be tough to sell this one.

Beyond that, Honda doesn't have much of a presence in Europe and it captures a fairly small part of the market. That will likely make it even more tough to sell an enthusiast's car in that market.

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Hollow-Ling@reddit

I wonder if the Prelude will find a niche in the EU given its hybrid system and smaller size with all the regulations and newer ones revolving around city centers.

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Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit

Apart from FL5, all currently sold EUDM Honda cars are hybrids. Civics are simply too expensive compared to the competition, and it's not reflected in the quality.

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Secuter@reddit

I doubt it. Hybrids certainly still have a place, but they're are on the decline. It was always an interim solution until electric vehicles became good enough.

That said, EVs don't work for everybody. But I'd argue that those people who need something different will pick up a diesel instead.

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bwoah_gimmethedrink@reddit

Meanwhile literal tanks like the Q8 or the Urus are eco-friendly and welcome.

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NegativeStorm@reddit

How tf is a 4 banger Honda an emissions problem.... We are going back to walking at this rate.

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Agreeable-Ad2051@reddit

I wish there was an exception for enthusiast cars in all these regulations but I'm sure a lot of companies would just abuse it and find a way for every new car to be classed as an enthusiast car.

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EmergencyRace7158@reddit

This. There should be a sales volume based exemption for certain models. Performance cars have a negligible environmental impact due to their relatively low numbers and usage. Just banning fun will lead to a backlash against environmental policies just like it already has in the US.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

Sell more EVs, then you can afford to sell less efficient ICE.

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cpufreak101@reddit

Consider the exemptions for trucks in the US, it's the whole reason we have almost no cars anymore.

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StandupJetskier@reddit

Yup. Flat floor, certain angles of ground clearance front and rear, and voila ! Truck.

Those moronic "Allroad" versions of a wagon/estate are compliance cars.

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JediLion17@reddit

I think the ideal answer to your idea is sales numbers. Enthusiast cars already sell in smaller numbers and collectively pollute less than the millions of "normal" cars on the road. Allow say 10k units per year (made up number, I don't know how many is reasonable) of this model with this engine would have minimal constraints on Honda's current production and make enthusiasts happy.

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

there was already an exception for models that don't qualify for emissions regs but sell less than 1.5k/yr, that exception only lasts till mid-2026.

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JediLion17@reddit

Interesting, did not know that. Admittedly I'm more familiar with US regulations, which are more backwards.

My two cars are harder to make compliant in the US despite the fact they are more efficient than a majority of the trucks in my neighborhood.

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Crocs_n_Glocks@reddit

>Admittedly I'm more familiar with US regulations, which are more backwards.

>My two cars are harder to make compliant in the US despite the fact they are more efficient than a majority of the trucks in my neighborhood.

....as an American.....wut?

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JediLion17@reddit

Our fuel economy and emission regulations are a funky formula based on size and classification of vehicles. A Ford Focus has to meet higher standards. So my Focus ST which does in fact get lower fuel economy than a regular Focus was harder for Ford to justify than an F-150 getting half the fuel economy.

This is also partly to blame for the rise in sales of CUVs and SUVs. They are classified as "light trucks" and help offset the fleet average, so when for Ford sells an Escape it helps offset an F-150 they sell.

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Crocs_n_Glocks@reddit

I don't see how that's more backwards than near anywhere else in the world.

It would be stupid to hold trucks to the same emission standards as a small car.

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thisisjustascreename@reddit

It used to be stupid, but these days trucks use the exact same engines as cars.

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LordofSpheres@reddit

And if that were the only piece of the puzzle, life would be a lot easier. But it isn't. Because A) trucks are larger and heavier and B) they are designed to tow and haul far greater amounts of cargo, they cannot be expected to meet the same standards as vehicles which are not intended to do so.

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gimpwiz@reddit

It would be stupid to hold work trucks to the same emissions standards as small commuter cars, but I think it can make plenty of sense to hold all commuter vehicles to the same standard, with an analogue of a 'gas guzzler tax' for commuter cars in a higher emissions class. This means enthusiasts can still run enthusiast cars, they might have to pay an extra $1500-or-whatever though when they buy it. And if people want to use pickup trucks for commuting instead of loading them up with tools and driving to jobsites, same thing, pay an upfront fee for it.

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Crocs_n_Glocks@reddit

I don't disagree with that, but I also can wrap my head around why 99.99% of the population who doesn't care about cars as much as us, weren't writing emissions legislation to cater to us in the 1960s.

And my overall point was that the US is not more backwards than the rest of the world.

I can buy a car with a V8 (or Civic Type R for that matter), insure it for $100 a month and register it for like $300, and then modify it....which automatically beats the rest of the world.

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gimpwiz@reddit

Hah, we're agreed on the last part :)

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Crocs_n_Glocks@reddit

Cheers! Lol

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gimpwiz@reddit

600hp out of that is incredible! The trans is gonna be like glass at that power level. Mine is giving me early signs of failure at ~210k (and has been for quite a few years.)

The buick unfortunately is parked right now until I replace the rear valve cover gasket, which is leaking so bad as to make the car concerning to drive.

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Crocs_n_Glocks@reddit

That's eventually what did the car in. It's been over a decade lol but I think they were having trouble with some sort of input bearing? He and a buddy had fully built the trans and were machining their own parts, but I think this one input thing was the weak point and he eventually sold the project and got an RS3

Here's a vid of it on a dyno putting 608 to the wheels-

https://youtu.be/8SPBZttcQLk?si=zfOlTzFzTr-vKavw

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JediLion17@reddit

Ok, maybe not more backwards than elsewhere in the world, but it still defeats the purpose of having fuel economy and emission regulations. It actually is more economical for companies to build larger vehicles because the requirements drop off as size grows. That's partly why cars like the civic, accord and Camry have grown in size.

I'm not necessarily saying the trucks should be the exact same standards as cars. But when trucks are the best selling vehicles in the country and used as everyday vehicles, it seems silly to punish sports cars that are still more efficient.

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AndroidUser37@reddit

I think he's talking about CAFE standards.

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

yeah, the issues with cafe are well known, but likewise in the US if you are building fewer than 325 replicas a year (and only replicas), and build less than 5k cars a year worldwide total, you are completely exempt from crash testing. use a current model year engine with manufacturer guidance on installation e.g. coyote and they'll assume emissions are all good s well.

so if I wanted to make a turn-key small & light modern sports car with a crate k20c3 and an s660 inspired body, I'd have to follow fmvss, pay for crash testing, get a vehicle-level certificate which are extraordinarily expensive at that scale obviously.

but if I put a cobra body on it? oh look thats completely fine. if I were to import a honda beat that is clearly less efficient and also completely unsafe? fine too (as it should be). if I were to make it a kit, sell it to someone, thats cool, and they'll just pay someone under the table to assemble it for them.

we could totally have a boon of somewhat-affordable low-volume enthusiast vehicles. and we do as long as its shaped like a cobra or whatever https://www.superformance.com/news-article/superformance-offer-turn-key-vehicles-under-lvm-act.

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itsamemarioscousin@reddit

The "de minimis" standard exempting companies from CO2 fleet average rules has been 1000 units total in the EU since these regulations came in in the late '00s.

There's no exemption for low volume models, just low volume brands/companies, and they have to have a decent level of independence from a parent company to qualify (including their own design and production facilities, so Bentley would qualify, but a QV subbrand of Alfa wouldn't).

The 1500 units limit is a temporary exemption to the new General Safety Regulations for existing models, running out next year. This going away is killing the CTR, the Alpine A110, and probably a few other things come next summer.

Honda could keep selling the CTR under the CO2 rules if they sold enough EVs and PHEVs to offset them. Other brands manage it - the M3 is still an ICE, as are the M2, and various other performance vehicles. Honda went all in early on HEV, and are behind the curve on EVs.

Means they're not getting rocked by the current slowdown in EV sales (cough Porsche cough), but also means that they have very few super low emissions cars to offset their high emissions cars.

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MaybeNext-Monday@reddit

As soon as there’s an upper limit though, it’s instantly turning to scalper hell.

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Caqtus95@reddit

"Of course our new SUV is an enthusiast car. Who wouldn't be enthusiastic about it's class-leading 12-airbags, the seamless CVT transmission, or the brand new 29.5" infotainment display with integrated climate controls?"

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Alex333555@reddit

It would also be unfair. Enthusiast cars are expensive, so this is just ensuring that only the rich can contaminate, which, in my opinion, is a problematic ideal.

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Recoil42@reddit

There are exceptions already. Europe operates on a fleet emissions system. You can sell whatever you like, as long as your fleet average meets the requirements.

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cat_prophecy@reddit

Or more likely they would just make less of them and charge even more.

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instantur@reddit

Are performance cars doomed in Europe?

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Kaiathebluenose@reddit

Europe sucks ass

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

Curious what this means for the NA market

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XSC@reddit

The next gen will probably be hybrid so it should be fine.

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

That's if you want a hybrid

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XSC@reddit

I wouldn’t mind it, the civic hybrid is as fast as the si.

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

Not if it means more weight and the loss of a manual

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Hollow-Ling@reddit

I expect the FL5 to disappear from the NA market around the same time that it disappears from the Japanese market, given even Japanese regulations are closing in on the K20C1. Only hope after that is that a hybrid Type R will come around and still be fun, light-ish, and manual. I'm a bit confident in the weight given the current Civic Hybrid isn't that heavy, and the new hybrid system coming with the Prelude is supposed to be 10% lighter. Keeping the manual will be tricky given how Honda's current hybrid system works.

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

It's possible Honda shifts production to NA to skirt the Japanese restrictions. They already make the ITS here.

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Hollow-Ling@reddit

Definitely not out of the question given the ITS and the K20C being made in the US (honestly, I only recently learned that the ITS is assembled in the US lol). So maybe there's some hope, but I can't imagine they'll keep producing a pure ICE CTR/ITS once they figure out a Type R hybrid system.

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cilantno@reddit

I’d expect: nothing

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

Hopefully production continues for the US.

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cilantno@reddit

I would expect that.

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Limesmack91@reddit

Is there some special rule for Japanese cars? Every time they discontinue a sporty car in Europe it's "because of regulations" while at the same time several companies have been selling fast and sporty versions of almost their entire lineup continuously for decades without any emission issues.

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CMDR_omnicognate@reddit

I guess a lot of Japanese companies aren’t too fussy with trying to meet eu regulations for its relatively low volume sports car sales. You hear so much about it from Japan because they’re the only other major player when it comes to sports cars in the EU I guess. European companies are obviously going to build cars to EU specification, the US doesn’t really sell any sports cars over here beyond the extremely uncommon and overpriced mustang or corvette, and most cars coming out of China currently are EV’s so don’t have to worry about emissions.

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Limesmack91@reddit

Yep, that makes sense. It's probably just an economical decision. It's just disingenuous from them to blame it on regulations when it's more about corporate greed on their part

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CMDR_omnicognate@reddit

It’s not really greed, Honda or Nissan or whoever are going to weigh up the cost of conforming compared to the potential sales they might get and make a decision based on that. Clearly they decided that they’d loose more money making the cars complaint, if it’s even possible, than they would selling the car over here.

Other companies do comply, like Mazda with the MX5, because Europe is one of their biggest markets so it makes sense to design their cars around that market.

It’s just economics

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J0kutyypp1@reddit

Same way Toyota hasn't had issues with Supra since It's mostly BMW tech designed to European standards

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Kavani18@reddit

Corvette overpriced? Is it more there or something?

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CMDR_omnicognate@reddit

it starts at £97,000 over here, which is about $132,000. That’s about twice what they cost in the US I think right?

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Kavani18@reddit

It is! The base model here has an MSRP of $68k

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CMDR_omnicognate@reddit

You can see why they don’t sell all that well over here lol, they’re similar prices to a 911

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Kavani18@reddit

Such a shame. The Corvette is a marvel. The ZR1 would cost a really pretty penny over there. Although 1064hp is worth it at any price to some

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Carter0108@reddit

I can't find any mention of price on their website but according to an Autocar article from 2021 the C8 Corvette Stingray starts at £81,700 and that's the only model Chevy sell here.

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Limesmack91@reddit

Don't know about the Corvette Vs cars or similar performance but for example the mustang GT starts at 60k here in Belgium and since our taxation is partially displacement based, registration tax is another 10K or so on top of that. After that, you're paying 3K in yearly taxes as well.

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R_V_Z@reddit

Places that have displacement fees are going to be very unfriendly to the Corvette.

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Kavani18@reddit

Oh, that’s true. I reckon I didn’t think of that

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reacTy@reddit

You know how others do it? You can sell V8s and whatever but your average fleet emissions have to be below ~100g CO2/km target. If you don't sell a lot of plug-ins, BEVs you then can't sell cars with higher emissions, BEV sales of Honda in Europe suck, you know what? Overall sales of Honda suck in Europe (~70 000 vehicles sold last year, almost overtaken by Mitsubishi lmao).

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Limesmack91@reddit

Yeah all Japanese brands have pretty low sales records, but they all sell almost exclusively underpowered ICE cars or hybrids, so their fleet emissions shouldn't be a problem right?

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reacTy@reddit

Nope not enough. Honda Civic e:HEV: 108 g/km (above target), Honda CR-V e:HEV: 151 g/km (way above target).

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Limesmack91@reddit

Holy shit, didn't know the sucked that bad at emissions. My full ICE has more power than a crv ehev and lower emissions

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Big_Flan_4492@reddit

Is there some special rule for Japanese cars?

Yeah this is really weird espically considering that Japan, espically Tokyo has extremely strict emission regulations. So its really weird to see them get banned since Japanese EVs, hydrogen and hybrids are far more popular in Japan lol

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SecretApe@reddit

I have not seen a single one of these on the road where I live. Wanted to get one but it was way to expensive unfortunately

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West_Independent2551@reddit (OP)

Since they all came out I have seen:

2 Nissan 400Zs

3 FL5 CTRs

3 8th gen Golf Rs

5+ Supra MKVs

10+ Elantra Ns

Not great next to the competition, but what do people expect, it's a 50k hot hatch.

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LetgomyEkko@reddit

VW priced me out of a new Golf R. I had 2 different gen GTIs and was ready for a Golf R but after markup, even though I could afford it, I couldn’t justify paying 56k+ for a hatch after markup.

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StandupJetskier@reddit

LOL. I went to my local VW Stealer for a car part. I looked at an R on the floor, and the nice saleslady led with "we have a 25k markup on this but we will work off that". I pointed to my C43 outside and said "So this Golf costs more than my AMG ?"

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Successful-State-829@reddit

Is that your experience in Europe? Here in California, I've seen 0 Zs, 5 Elantra Ns, 8+ Supras, a bajillion FL5s.

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RevvedUpLikeADeuce09@reddit

You must be in SoCal, because in NorCar, I've seen 2 Zs, 0 Elantra Ns, a bajillion Supras, and 0 FL5s.

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Successful-State-829@reddit

No way. I'm mostly in South Bay. FL5s everywhere. Good amount of Supras. Zs only seen are at dealership. They're rarer than DE5 ITSs. Good amount of Elantra N drivers in Sunnyvale Apple HQ.

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handymanshandle@reddit

Yeah, I'm curious as to where OP's at where they've seen a ton of Elantra Ns but hardly any Type Rs. Ontario maybe?

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Phazushift@reddit

Lmao I live in Markham Ontario and FL5s are plenty.

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West_Independent2551@reddit (OP)

I'm in the US lol. I've lived in Boise, Idaho and also worked in a pretty wealthy part of Wyoming in the last three or so years since the cars came out. I saw most of the Elantras on the highway, so no clue where they were coming from, but some of them could have been out of state.

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bimmervschevy@reddit

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an FL5 Type R in the flesh, but I’ve seen a slew of MkV Supras and a decent share of Mk8 Golf Rs.

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Odd-Refrigerator-425@reddit

Death of the middle class.

The people who would be buying these things just can't afford to anymore.

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SecretApe@reddit

In Poland I see the most: I30Ns S3’s Megane RS Focus ST GTI Golf R Type R

But they’re becoming generally less and less common overtime.

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RunninOnMT@reddit

That sucks, they look way better in person IMHO, same with the Integra Type-S. But in the civic especially, the fender flares are very subtle, they don't pop in photographs that much. When you see them in person, they just look low and mean with the wheels pushed all the way out to the edges.

I'm kind of in love with the way the FL5 looks despite thinking "meh" every time i see a photo of one.

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randeus@reddit

Yeah, the FL5 is also wider than pictures make them look, so they have a good stance.

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cock________________@reddit

i loved everything about my FL5, except that it sounded like a hybrid and there are zero good exhaust options.

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BeepBangBraaap@reddit

I see them fairly regularly near me. Passed one on the way to work this morning, actually.
Of course, I see 911s and Lambos fairly regularly, too

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Leek5@reddit

I see a fair amount where I am. In fact 2 of my coworker have them lol

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IcyRound3423@reddit

Oh no! a 70k fwd hot hatch will no longer be sold what a tragedy 💁

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Lyxess@reddit

I mean because I live in a country that hates fun cars it’s already €91k so way out of my price class

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npafitis@reddit

Which country is that

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mvmisha@reddit

Netherlands

https://www.honda.nl/cars/new/civic-type-r/overview.html

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m0emura@reddit

Cant help but feel this'll also keep FL5 prices high om the usef market for the forseeable future

Shame as I'd kill for one as my allrounder but find it hard to justify 45k despite being a Honda fanboy as theres some good euro alternatives in that range here. You can be looking at good M340i Touring estates for that money.

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mvmisha@reddit

45k sounds even nice.. the cheapest used one in Spain is 54k

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RAZGRIZTP@reddit

20-25k for a used N car

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sprchrgddc5@reddit

I am a Honda fanboy. I picked up a Kona N. I love it, a lot. But it does not have the novelty Hondas have. It’s like 90% there but just not the same.

Like, stupid JDM OEM Type R options excite me, a cool NGS button does too, but it’s like in a totally different way.

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RAZGRIZTP@reddit

They are great cars! they're different than hondas, eLSD and electronic steering is a lot different than what honda has made for years and years.

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Defenseman7@reddit

Yeah it’s crazy here in Canada too. I’m not sure I’ve ever even seen an FL5 but there’s isn’t one for sale here under $65k.

And I realize it’s a really good car but I just could never personally bring myself to pay slightly used M, AMG, RS car prices for a 4 cyl Honda, especially for a daily where AWD would be a lot nicer than the FWD manual.

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rahim770@reddit

Yea the pricing never made sense. The previous type r was very competitive at the price of 42-45k. 65+ in canada is pure greedy. They think they can charge more cuz of the retards on r/whatcarshouldibuy. Same goes for the gr corolla, who the hell is buying those for 64k

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09Customx@reddit

The Type R not having heated seats for $65k would be a dealbreaker as well

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Phazushift@reddit

Good thing I dont drive it in winter

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Defenseman7@reddit

Oh I thought they got them in Canada. Cause yeah my cold ass in -35 would not be happy about that. Maybe not a dealbreaker for me but not great

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hi_im_bored13@reddit

Type-r only gets the red alcantara buckets, the Type-S (integra) is the acura variant that retains the heated seats

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Defenseman7@reddit

Oh man that’s crazy. I realize the constraints maybe with an alcantara bucket but I’ve had heated seats in every single one of the 11 cars I’ve owned with some of those being like MY2005.

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longgamma@reddit

There was a 95k used one being sold in Quebec 🤣

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Phazushift@reddit

Midland Hondas selling for 90Gs

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RunninOnMT@reddit

And I realize it’s a really good car but I just could never personally bring myself to pay slightly used M, AMG, RS car prices for a 4 cyl Honda, especially for a daily where AWD would be a lot nicer than the FWD manual.

Yeah, i've had a lot of fun in FWD cars, and though i prefer other driven wheels, i will never tell anyone that FWD on it's own is enough to make a car bad, or boring.

But the reality is with 300+ hp, you're looking at a pretty tight window for usability when it comes to that power. I really wouldn't mind if I lived in California, but here in seattle? Where the ground is damp 200+ days a year? It just really puts a damper on being able to enjoy that sweet, sweet engine.

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Daneth@reddit

Seattle... Even RWD mid engine I have a hard time taking my C8 out in the rain when my Focus RS handles it so much better. At least we have a week of nice driving weather coming up.

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Defenseman7@reddit

Same, I’ve had a Veloster N and it was a riot. But like you said the CTR is effectively making a very practical car much less practical for a very high price.

In Canada you could pick up a relatively lightly used F82 M2C manual for the same price and it’s a very tough sell to me to buy a CTR over that.

Hell my OG M2 was $47k haha.

I guess it’s just for a very, very specific buyer. I’m glad they exist though, the more enthusiast cars we have the better!

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VEGA3519@reddit

Welp, it seems like won't be a point in buying Honda ig. Imo i don't see anything that can be worth to buy a Honda in Europe, you can get a fun but reliable car from Mazda or exceptionally good hybrid from Toyota. Also i'm expecting Prelude to instantly dissappear from Europe, since no one will buy it or the emissions are going to be stricter

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